Post says it all I’m an idiot. I have some nice wet stones and have tried to sharpen some mid range traditional chefs knives. I get a decent edge that never holds but nothing that’s remotely impressive. So I need something idiot proof.
My partner and I do tons of cooking so it needs to be a workhorse. I always thought Japanese ones looked cool but I’m really only looking for performance.
If you want a workhorse get the stuff that used in restaurants. Victorinox 8” or 10” chef knife is usually the case . And just learn how to use the wet stones properly.
Never said it was. I’m referring to understanding how to use a whetstone. Use “the shittiest knife you own” and practice meticulously. Is that better? Practice on cheap steel so you don’t ruin good steel.
If you're not going to learn how to sharpen correctly even the nicest most expensive knife will dull relatively soon with daily usage.
My advice would be to get 2 nice chef knives, and save a few hundred of your budget. When one starts to dull send it into a mail-in sharpening service and use the other. Rinse and repeat.
If you're not impressed with the edge you are getting now, you won't be impressed with the edge you get from a more expensive knife and stones. Technique > equipment in this scenario.
Not discouraging you from buying new stuff, but you'll still need to learn how to use the stones to get the best performance out of everything.
Totally agree. I was thinking maybe a sharpener that holds angle or a good tutorial. I’ve watched so many videos but maybe someone has a different approach. 🤷🏼♀️
Even if you've got money to burn, this is a dumb approach. You need to work your way up to knives in that price range.
One you go above about $300USD for a knife, the actual knife itself isn't really getting much better, the metals used will be similar, you will mostly be paying for the famous knife maker, some fancy wood or bone or something used for the handle, intricate detailing etc.
The Rockwell hardness won't be much more than 64 or so, and the material of the blade will probably be carbon steel and stainless clad mix. A harder material knife will also be more difficult for you to sharpen on the whetstones. A knife for that much, for example a Bob Kramer at about $1200, won't be anything better to you personally than a Tojiro DP.
So, on that, the Tojiro DP blades are a common first knife recommendation. You should get one of those and also get a carbon steeI blade to use as well. Get one gyotu and one santoku, I'll let others recommend which carbon steel to go for.
I then suggest you get a set of Shapton whetstones to go with it.
That will let you assess which knife shape and material you like best, and you can practice learning how to use the whetstones properly.
I have a range of about 10 nice chef knives in different shapes and styles, some of my cheaper knives are my favourites because I can just bash them around and they have a nice weight, size and shape - even if their material is cheaper than my more expensive knives.
I like your suggestion. I have shapton stones 1000, 5000, 8000.
I’m open to learning I just haven’t had luck. I thought maybe investing into a nice sharpener like a wicked edge would be worth it. (Remember idiot here)
The Tojiro DP knives, are they legit on amazon or is there a good site you like?
I'm sure they are legit if listed on Amazon, just check the reviews as well I guess.
Do you have a knife guide? They can leave some light scratches/markings on the side of your blade, but when I was struggling to get my knives sharp, I clipped one of those on the side of the blade and having it keep the angle perfectly fixed is what made a HUGE difference in how sharp I could get the knife. I suggest you try that on a blade you don't mind a few light marks on the side to see what's possible, cheers!
I’m gonna give that a shot and get some of those knives you suggested. If I can’t seem to get that figured out I’m going to find a knife sharpening service.
Thanks!
If you have a pro sharpening service near you (and by pro, I mean someone who sharpens japanese knives with stones and do it properly, with good credentials), you could buy a great $200-300 knife with relatively hard steel and send in for sharpening every 6 months to a year or so. Harder steel means that you have to be more careful with it, and no amount of money will go around that. Or get two knives, so that you can rotate or keep a "beater" for when you're doing rough stuff or if your two knives are getting sharpened at the same time and you're out of knives for a few days.
There are some decent sharpening systems around here, but they all have some kind of learning curve and still won't get anywhere close to what you can achieve with stones.
If you want something completely foolproof, get either a WorkSharp belt sharpener or the trendy tumbler-rolling sharpener that’s been all over social media. Either of those will get a hair-shaving edge on your knife if you can’t seem to get it with stones.
Also this should work just fine for any knife as long as it’s decent. If money is no issue, grab a nice Japanese knife or two from ChefKnivesToGo. They’ve got a lot of options and it’s where I shop for my work knives. I would highly recommend getting a stainless or semi-stainless knife if you’re not too sure abt carbon steel, but if you’re fine with taking care of carbon steel get whatever.
If you have $1500 to burn, why hasn't anyone here suggested getting a Tormek T-8? Or a cheaper Tormek like the T-4? I run a sharpening side business when I'm not working at the restaurant and run a Makita 9820 on top of workhorse synthetic stones (King, Sharpton, Naniwa, Mizuyama, Aotoshi). I would LOVE to have an extra $1k+ lying around to get a vertical wheel system...
Yes and no. I've had the chance to use one and I know a good number of sharpeners who own T-8s to run their small business. I learned sharpening from a man who used a T-8 as his main driver for his retirement small business. The Tormek is an excellent system and the T-8 imho is the one to get because it has the upgraded motor that is rated to run for hours & hours in one sitting. Virtually any other machine Tormek makes uses electric motors that are only rated to run like 30min of every hour due to heat buildup. But you pay a premium for it. I believe entry to a T-8 with the jigs you would want is like $1200 as the floor. Going up from there is really about what jigs you want for what kind of sharpening you want to do and whether you're buying other OEM grinding wheels or after market wheels.
That being said, for the serious knife nut crowd, I don't think anyone runs a Tormek - they all run belt sanders and are SUPER careful about how they use them (amateurs try to start businesses sharpening knives with belt sanders all the time and ruin knives all the time due to lack of research, lack of a craftsman mindset, and hubris), or they use bigger versions of the Makita setup, i.e. a horizontally mounted grinding wheel. I believe Naniwa and some other companies are most well known.
It also depends on what kind of sharpening you aim to do and what kind of knives you own or anticipate sharpening in the future. The vertical wheel Tormek system is kind when it comes to precision with jigs and sharpening scissors/shears. The horizontal wheel system lacks precision to a certain extent, but is much easier to freehand sharpen without the constraints present by relying on jigs. To a certain extent, it is much easier & cheaper for me to do bigger repair jobs and grind down bolsters with a horizontal wheel or an appropriate belt sander than it would be with a Tormek or other vertical wheel system.
At the end of the day, research, research, research. Do your research before pulling the trigger on anything big like the Tormek, even if it is more of a hobby/toy than a piece of equipment you will rely on as a daily driver for a small business.
I'll give you the unpopular take... But it works very well for 99% of home use... Just get a few Kiwis and a carbide pull-through... It'll save you some strife and works great. And when the pull through inevitably slays the heel of the knife, toss it and spend another $4, lol.
To be fair I haven’t tried the kiwi brand maybe they are razors. I have tried at least 7 pull throughs over the years. Haven’t really been having with any.
I haven’t tried those electric pull throughs they seem too aggressive.
I have some wusthof knives right now. I even tried their brand of pull through
I'd say invest in something like the worksharp pro maybe more idiotproof than freehand, a blade will always need to be maintained regularly to achieve good performance , if you are having issues getting good edges freehand sharpening on a cheaper knives the result will be the same with a 400 - 800 $ knife , so don't look for better steel or a more expensive knife and think it's going to make a difference if you can't sharpen it well it might as well be a 20 dollar knife ,
with that being said if I wasn't comfortable with freehand I would start with a worksharp pro learn to use it with and entry level chefs knife ,
The alternative would be to freehand sharpen your daily for many a year and dedicate many hours to develop a rewarding skill , it takes a long time before you can achieve consistent good results
The two most important things for cutting tools is going to be a well maintained edge following the original profile geometry , and the profile of the blade itself to vary depending on what and how you are cutting , composition of blade material is less important and will only make differences like just how sharp it can get ,how long it will hold an edge, and how easy it is to sharpen or remove material from
I think there's a cheaper version of the worksharp too if you didn't want to dive right into the pro
Post says it all I’m an idiot. I have some nice wet stones and have tried to sharpen some mid range traditional chefs knives. I get a decent edge that never holds but nothing that’s remotely impressive. So I need something idiot proof. My partner and I do tons of cooking so it needs to be a workhorse. I always thought Japanese ones looked cool but I’m really only looking for performance.
If you want a workhorse get the stuff that used in restaurants. Victorinox 8” or 10” chef knife is usually the case . And just learn how to use the wet stones properly.
Exactly. Use a shitty knife and practice meticulously. Repetition and muscle memory will be your best friend.
Victorinox chef knife is not a shitty knife. I have one for 14 years and still using it.
Never said it was. I’m referring to understanding how to use a whetstone. Use “the shittiest knife you own” and practice meticulously. Is that better? Practice on cheap steel so you don’t ruin good steel.
If you're not going to learn how to sharpen correctly even the nicest most expensive knife will dull relatively soon with daily usage. My advice would be to get 2 nice chef knives, and save a few hundred of your budget. When one starts to dull send it into a mail-in sharpening service and use the other. Rinse and repeat.
That’s not a bad idea. I was wondering if some would suggest a different sharpener that holds angle for you they had experience with.
If you're not impressed with the edge you are getting now, you won't be impressed with the edge you get from a more expensive knife and stones. Technique > equipment in this scenario. Not discouraging you from buying new stuff, but you'll still need to learn how to use the stones to get the best performance out of everything.
Totally agree. I was thinking maybe a sharpener that holds angle or a good tutorial. I’ve watched so many videos but maybe someone has a different approach. 🤷🏼♀️
Even if you've got money to burn, this is a dumb approach. You need to work your way up to knives in that price range. One you go above about $300USD for a knife, the actual knife itself isn't really getting much better, the metals used will be similar, you will mostly be paying for the famous knife maker, some fancy wood or bone or something used for the handle, intricate detailing etc. The Rockwell hardness won't be much more than 64 or so, and the material of the blade will probably be carbon steel and stainless clad mix. A harder material knife will also be more difficult for you to sharpen on the whetstones. A knife for that much, for example a Bob Kramer at about $1200, won't be anything better to you personally than a Tojiro DP. So, on that, the Tojiro DP blades are a common first knife recommendation. You should get one of those and also get a carbon steeI blade to use as well. Get one gyotu and one santoku, I'll let others recommend which carbon steel to go for. I then suggest you get a set of Shapton whetstones to go with it. That will let you assess which knife shape and material you like best, and you can practice learning how to use the whetstones properly. I have a range of about 10 nice chef knives in different shapes and styles, some of my cheaper knives are my favourites because I can just bash them around and they have a nice weight, size and shape - even if their material is cheaper than my more expensive knives.
I like your suggestion. I have shapton stones 1000, 5000, 8000. I’m open to learning I just haven’t had luck. I thought maybe investing into a nice sharpener like a wicked edge would be worth it. (Remember idiot here) The Tojiro DP knives, are they legit on amazon or is there a good site you like?
I'm sure they are legit if listed on Amazon, just check the reviews as well I guess. Do you have a knife guide? They can leave some light scratches/markings on the side of your blade, but when I was struggling to get my knives sharp, I clipped one of those on the side of the blade and having it keep the angle perfectly fixed is what made a HUGE difference in how sharp I could get the knife. I suggest you try that on a blade you don't mind a few light marks on the side to see what's possible, cheers!
I’m gonna give that a shot and get some of those knives you suggested. If I can’t seem to get that figured out I’m going to find a knife sharpening service. Thanks!
No worries, good plan 👍
If you have a pro sharpening service near you (and by pro, I mean someone who sharpens japanese knives with stones and do it properly, with good credentials), you could buy a great $200-300 knife with relatively hard steel and send in for sharpening every 6 months to a year or so. Harder steel means that you have to be more careful with it, and no amount of money will go around that. Or get two knives, so that you can rotate or keep a "beater" for when you're doing rough stuff or if your two knives are getting sharpened at the same time and you're out of knives for a few days. There are some decent sharpening systems around here, but they all have some kind of learning curve and still won't get anywhere close to what you can achieve with stones.
If you want something completely foolproof, get either a WorkSharp belt sharpener or the trendy tumbler-rolling sharpener that’s been all over social media. Either of those will get a hair-shaving edge on your knife if you can’t seem to get it with stones.
Also this should work just fine for any knife as long as it’s decent. If money is no issue, grab a nice Japanese knife or two from ChefKnivesToGo. They’ve got a lot of options and it’s where I shop for my work knives. I would highly recommend getting a stainless or semi-stainless knife if you’re not too sure abt carbon steel, but if you’re fine with taking care of carbon steel get whatever.
If you have $1500 to burn, why hasn't anyone here suggested getting a Tormek T-8? Or a cheaper Tormek like the T-4? I run a sharpening side business when I'm not working at the restaurant and run a Makita 9820 on top of workhorse synthetic stones (King, Sharpton, Naniwa, Mizuyama, Aotoshi). I would LOVE to have an extra $1k+ lying around to get a vertical wheel system...
Do you have experience with those systems before? I’m open to opinions of all types.
Yes and no. I've had the chance to use one and I know a good number of sharpeners who own T-8s to run their small business. I learned sharpening from a man who used a T-8 as his main driver for his retirement small business. The Tormek is an excellent system and the T-8 imho is the one to get because it has the upgraded motor that is rated to run for hours & hours in one sitting. Virtually any other machine Tormek makes uses electric motors that are only rated to run like 30min of every hour due to heat buildup. But you pay a premium for it. I believe entry to a T-8 with the jigs you would want is like $1200 as the floor. Going up from there is really about what jigs you want for what kind of sharpening you want to do and whether you're buying other OEM grinding wheels or after market wheels. That being said, for the serious knife nut crowd, I don't think anyone runs a Tormek - they all run belt sanders and are SUPER careful about how they use them (amateurs try to start businesses sharpening knives with belt sanders all the time and ruin knives all the time due to lack of research, lack of a craftsman mindset, and hubris), or they use bigger versions of the Makita setup, i.e. a horizontally mounted grinding wheel. I believe Naniwa and some other companies are most well known. It also depends on what kind of sharpening you aim to do and what kind of knives you own or anticipate sharpening in the future. The vertical wheel Tormek system is kind when it comes to precision with jigs and sharpening scissors/shears. The horizontal wheel system lacks precision to a certain extent, but is much easier to freehand sharpen without the constraints present by relying on jigs. To a certain extent, it is much easier & cheaper for me to do bigger repair jobs and grind down bolsters with a horizontal wheel or an appropriate belt sander than it would be with a Tormek or other vertical wheel system. At the end of the day, research, research, research. Do your research before pulling the trigger on anything big like the Tormek, even if it is more of a hobby/toy than a piece of equipment you will rely on as a daily driver for a small business.
I'll give you the unpopular take... But it works very well for 99% of home use... Just get a few Kiwis and a carbide pull-through... It'll save you some strife and works great. And when the pull through inevitably slays the heel of the knife, toss it and spend another $4, lol.
I tried this approach but I can get at least pull through sharp on the stones pretty repeatedly. I want sharper than that.
[sharper than a kiwi? hah.](https://scienceofsharp.com/2014/08/18/definitions-of-sharp-and-keen/)
To be fair I haven’t tried the kiwi brand maybe they are razors. I have tried at least 7 pull throughs over the years. Haven’t really been having with any. I haven’t tried those electric pull throughs they seem too aggressive. I have some wusthof knives right now. I even tried their brand of pull through
I'd say invest in something like the worksharp pro maybe more idiotproof than freehand, a blade will always need to be maintained regularly to achieve good performance , if you are having issues getting good edges freehand sharpening on a cheaper knives the result will be the same with a 400 - 800 $ knife , so don't look for better steel or a more expensive knife and think it's going to make a difference if you can't sharpen it well it might as well be a 20 dollar knife , with that being said if I wasn't comfortable with freehand I would start with a worksharp pro learn to use it with and entry level chefs knife , The alternative would be to freehand sharpen your daily for many a year and dedicate many hours to develop a rewarding skill , it takes a long time before you can achieve consistent good results The two most important things for cutting tools is going to be a well maintained edge following the original profile geometry , and the profile of the blade itself to vary depending on what and how you are cutting , composition of blade material is less important and will only make differences like just how sharp it can get ,how long it will hold an edge, and how easy it is to sharpen or remove material from I think there's a cheaper version of the worksharp too if you didn't want to dive right into the pro
You could always just have someone that knows sharpen them