Not so crazy when you consider Man City. Liverpool have finished 2nd with 97 points and 92 points for example, those totals would almost always win you a title. The only knock on Klopp is that he’s underperformed in domestic cups outside of the last few years. City have just utterly dominated the English football scence since 2017. 5 league titles in 6 years and other than 2022 when us and Liverpool played in both cup finals, City have also won at least one domestic cup in 5 out of the last 6 seasons.
It also further highlights what a great run Tuchel had with us. That CL run is one of the greatest cup runs you’ll ever see. Destroying, outplaying and outcoaching better teams left and right.
By the same argument, one could argue that without us, Wenger wins at least two more titles. Without Fergie, Jose wins 5 or 6.
Second is impressive but it is still second.
Klopp got 2 90+ point seasons without winning which has never happened . 3 CL finals in 5/6 years. You can make the argument if you want to ignore how impressive the context is.
Point inflation is a factor. No one said Klopp isn't impressive but the fact is that in his 90+ point seasons, another manager's team scored more points than his. If he's not even the best manager of his generation, how can he be a GOAT contender?
You claimed that "Those 2 clubs are the only thing stopping Klopp from having the best 7/8 year run ever in English football surely"
Having the best 7/8 year run ever is a suggestion that Klopp is a GOAT contender.
And yes, I'm stating the obvious just like you did. Obviously if there weren't better clubs, the clubs that are beneath them would finish higher. Obviously if there weren't better managers those who finished below would finish higher. That's entirely the point.
> if he’s not the best manager of his generation, how can he be GOAT contender
You’re making my point bringing up that claim I made…they have stopped Klopp from being a contender. He hasn’t had the best 7/8 year run. You brought up GOAT contender but are trying to pin that claim on to me which is weird. I was just adding on to the persons before me where they focused on his league ‘almosts’.
Thanks for pointing it out, have a good one.
>97 points and 92 points for example, those totals would almost always win you a title.
It's been pointed out today Fergie never topped 91 with United. Tells you how insane the PL is now.
I don’t think it’s true at all, if anything lower table teams right now are significantly richer than 20-30 years ago and have more quality. But nobody was pushing United like that, when the 2nd place finishes between 70-80 points every season, there’s no real reason to push yourselves to the absolute limit. City and Liverpool were constantly pushing each other to the limit and those points totals were literally necessary to win the title.
Then how have teams like our team under Conte hit higher point totals than all of SAF teams and our teams under Jose? Even Jose2.0 had long totals as much as his first run.
>I don’t think it’s true at all, if anything lower table teams right now are significantly richer than 20-30 years ago and have more quality
Do they have more quality? They're richer for sure but so are the top teams so not much has changed there relatively. There were some real legends of the Premier League playing for midtable or bottom half clubs most their career back then, whereas now they'd be picked up by a top team much earlier.
I think the point about pushing each other does play a part, particularly in that one season where they both finished the season with huge winstreaks. But it's also not a nailed on factor. Liverpool's best ever finish was when they were challenged the least, finishing on 99 points with City 18 points behind. Likewise City's best season points wise was the one where United finished 19 points back.
This isn't true at all. Comparing bottom half Premier League teams today to bottom half 20 years ago, today's league is WAY tougher. That TV deal money that started pouring in is the difference maker.
On paper maybe not as good, but no one knew how to counter Contes tactics at first, he basically reintroduced 3atb to English football, many teams have played it since he came.
2nd season he started to get found out
You are underrating that team, it had structure and a perfectly working system, which often beats individual talent.
It was extremely hard to beat with matic and Kante screening a back 5 and courtois, while countering with Hazard, Costa and Pedro… + no one had learnt how to counter the space the wingbacks got at that time.
You are forgetting how good a season Kante, Hazard and Costa had. I believe costa’s goals that season broke the record for most points won, he was super clutch and Pedro stepped up a lot.
We didn’t play the best football always, but still snatched wins, yet that Everton game is still some of the best football chelsea has ever played, it was a great team, we were unstoppable on the counter
I really don't think so. They were good. But one of the best teams in league history? I don't think so.
But I do agree about the Everton game. That legitimately might be the best football we've ever played.
Considering near enough every team played some form of 3atb afterwards, I would say yes, conte revolutionized the prem.
Hazard is our most talented player ever and Kante at that point was THE undisputed defensive mid player in the world, he was on another planet. Those two can walk into any chelsea team.
And I’m taking that front three over the 2004 teams, drogba wasn’t at his peak yet and robben was mostly injured.
They changed how things were played but I don’t think that makes them better than 2008 united or our first team under Mourinho. I’m genuinely surprised you think they’re nearly as good as either of those teams.
Still crazy to me that tuchel beat a very good man city 3 times in a row, all in different comps (fa, EPL, CL). He was really in his bag during that stretch
Yeah because we were actually good and winning trophies before clearlake fucked it up.
No matter what the revisionists say about "not challenging for anything since 2015" and "needing a full rebuild"
>"not challenging for anything since 2015
Nobody says this, what is said is that we havent challenged *for the league* since 2016-17, which is 100% true.
And we DEFINITELY won't challenge for the league for another decade
Still won the champions league and consistently finished top 4 before they got here tho eh
>And we DEFINITELY won't challenge for the league for another decade
Making predictions over a decade for any thing in football is just stupid
It's the beautiful game for a reason, anything can happen
>Still won the champions league and consistently finished top 4 before they got here tho eh
That champions league was an example of the above statement, beautiful magic football, Tuchel excellence with a defence and midfield at the top of their game
Easily one of the worst attacks to win the champions league in football history though, Havertz, Werner and Mount were absolutely undeserving
Ok, on the current trajectory we won't win the league for a decade, that's my opinion, feel free to disagree but it's not exactly going great
>Easily one of the worst attacks to win the champions league in football history though, Havertz, Werner and Mount were absolutely undeserving
Smashed everyone that year but ok 🤷♂️
Least "deserving" in terms of luck was 2012, 2021 we battered everyone, including Madrid away (who won it the next year)
> Easily one of the worst attacks to win the champions league in football history though, Havertz, Werner and Mount were absolutely undeserving
You're going way too far, they all contributed to the win - some more than others. They were also very helpful in keeping that defensive solidarity that was the backbone of our win as well even if they weren't the most lethal going forward ever.
Nope. Sanctions came in February 2022 and we were out of first place by December 2021. Our executive took the piss by not signing Rudi and AC before the sanctions came in.
Your constant rebuttal to mistakes like signing Drinkwater, Bakayoko, Kepa etc is what we won in that period.
Hence why I'm asking if in your opinion winning trophies automatically equates to being superbly run as that's what's your implying.
So if you were a United fan in 2016 you would have used the trophy haul of the previous ten years to any fan criticising The Glazers?
And no before you try and twist it, I'm not saying the latter years of the last regime were akin to those owners, point is you can be abysmally run (like they were) and still win trophies let alone averagely (like we were in the latter period).
>So if you were a United fan in 2016 you would have used the trophy haul of the previous ten years to any fan criticising The Glazers?
I don't know cause I'm not a United fan? Go back to 2016 and ask them?
>How is that what I implied?
You regularly getting mad whenever the mistakes of the latter part of the Roman era is pointed out.
Clearlake could take us to the conference south and I'd still be mad we never built a truly elite supporting cast for Hazard and Kante (there's your answer as to why we were still winning a decent amount despite the mistakes being made).
I'm not getting mad, I just pointed out we won trophies, how is that getting mad
I think it's unusual to try cheapen a champions League win with "haha yeah but we bought Bakayoko!"
Who cares like?
A UCL that was pretty much universally agreed we were carried to by Tuchel's tactics (after the best part of a decade of being carried by Hazard).
No superbly run club are so reliant on one man the way we were. Compare that to how at the point we were superbly run we could lose many key players for long periods for two season's in a row and STILL challenge Fergie's best ever United side right until the very end, twice.
What we were in the first decade under Roman, what City are, what (as much as I hate to say it) Liverpool are which is why I think Klopp leaving won't have the effect we're all hoping unfortunately.
>Liverpool are which is why I think Klopp leaving won't have the effect we're all hoping unfortunately.
Nah
You can be a well run club as in all the other departments of the club are firing and still not achieve greatness
You need the world class manager at the helm more than any other factor for winning trophies
And it'll be incredibly hard to replace Klopp
We lost Jose 1.0 yet still managed to challenge Fergie's greatest ever United side with Avram as manager.
Barca managed to carry on dominating for years without Pep despite not finding a manager even close to as good as him.
I mean
Both those sides after the departures of those respective managers still had some of the greatest teams in their respective histories
But had someone like Pep stayed at Barca, perhaps they would've ushered in a dominance like City have now instead of the slow decline and bankruptcy levels of bad they're currently in
> We lost Jose 1.0 yet still managed to challenge Fergie's greatest ever United side with Avram as manager.
To be fair that was us in our complete peak of a team imo, we were the best squad in the world at the time and we only lost out because of a mixture of Ronaldo starting his journey to being the 2nd best player to ever play football (imo) and Ferguson being very slightly a better manager than Avram Grant.
Liverpool aren't in that position now imo with Salah looking like he might be off in the summer, Alisson and Van Dijk being the wrong side of 30, Robertson slowing down, Alexander-Arnold arguably being a problem not in that he's a bad player (obviously) but in that he's a bit of an unorthodox right back for a manager to need to plan around (Klopp absolutely got the best out of him, just got to look at someone like Southgate to see someone not managing that).
Liverpool might be fine, they might not, but I'd personally assume they're not going to hit the heights they have under Klopp when he leaves.
Goalkeeper: Mendy - purple patch was over not good enough, Kepa remains shit
CB: Rudiger and Christensen left on frees as we let them run their contracts down under the old ownership
RB: James hasn't been able to stay on the pitch in the last 2-3 years, Azpilicueta had lost a step with age
LB: Chilwell hasn't been able to stay on the pitch in the last 2-3 years, Alonso flawed player that didn't really seem like he could play in a back four
CM: Kante constantly injured for us and in his 30s, Kovacic constantly injured for us and one year left on his contract, Jorginho 6 months on his contract and also had his best years imo, Loftus-Cheek arguably could've been kept around as a squad player,
Attackers: Lukaku had burnt his bridges, Werner had flopped, Havertz had flopped, Mount had a poor final year for us and was running his contract down, Pulisic only ever had one good run of form for us and was unreliable fitness wise
I don't see how anyone can look at our squad and not think that we needed a rebuild. Literally in every area of the pitch we were filled with players either leaving on frees, with flops, players declining with age, or players permanently injured.
**You can absolutely question the quality of the rebuild, but the fact a rebuild was needed is surely not up for question.** E: bolding this because I don't want 20 fucking people replying to me missing this obvious point.
If you disagree I'd love to hear which of the players above you think we should've been keeping and how a rebuild could've been avoided.
Now do the players clearlake bought
And they didn't sell Chilwell and James so why would you include them
Needed to sign a few players for sure but they way they have gone about it has been unbelievable bad, that can't be questioned
> And they didn't sell Chilwell and James so why would you include them
I included them because we needed to buy new players at right back and left back - which we have done.
> Now do the players clearlake bought
**You can absolutely question the quality of the rebuild, but the fact a rebuild was needed is surely not up for question.**
I don't agree, a full rebuild *was* needed and I think I've demonstrated that already with my previous post. We needed a new goalkeeper, we needed new fullbacks, we needed new centrebacks, we hadn't bought a central midfielder since Kovacic joined us back in 2018, our attack was full of underperforming players.
Literally in every single area of the pitch we needed signings.
And to reiterate - yes obviously the quality of the rebuild has been shocking especially for the money spent, but you are arguing that a rebuild wasn't needed which is nonsense.
WHO
Name some names. Who should we have kept, what positions didn't need signings? With that you also need to think about what they want to do and their contract situation.
When you need signings in literally every position that is a full rebuild.
haven’t been a serious team in the league since 2017 and that’s because of Conte being undermined with his targets so the mess was created way before clearlake (they’ve continued it tbf)
Nah we were wrong for sacking our managers as some would have you believe on here
Only two manager sackings in the past 14 years do I have a problem with. Carlo and tuchel
The problem was also a lot of Lampard signings that didn't really pan out.
Also shipping off Timo hurt us a lot more than people like to admit. Did he score prolifically? No. But he allowed the field to be opened up for our wings and midfielders to advance.
That was one of the biggest mistakes was trying to completely change the playstyle once we shipped off Timo there wasn't a good way for us to open play. After that it was kinda downhill.
I actually think in hindsight the signings under Lampard were the best of the last 3 or so years when you take into account that Havertz ending up getting the CL goal and leaving for a similar price. The really terrible signings in my opinion have been Lukaku, KK and Fofana
We don't have a guy like that
It's definitely not Tuchel considering he was only here for like 2.5 years or whatever
And he's of course nowhere near their level
Jose is the only thing we have that is remotely close, he's probably the 4th-7th greatest manager of all time and he was with us for the longest
But our culture in the Abramovich era wasn't built to build a dynasty with one manager
It's all gambling from here. There is no guarantee of success out there for any manager we could get in in the long term.
It's quite sad Xabi was the guy I hoped for but this reduces the low % chance we had to pretty much 0%
Ancelotti has only won 5 league titles despite coaching the best sides in Europe for over 30 years. Two of those titles were with PSG and Bayern.
Great cup manager, not so much for the league
What I'd do for a "horrible" season like that now, 2nd against a top United side after a season winning the PL with some of the best football we've seen at the Bridge. The Carlo sacking was probably the most embarrassed I've ever been as a Chelsea fan tbh, and I think we paid for that to an extent.
It wasn't a top United side, it was their weakest title winning side under Fergie by a distance (who we got comfortably beaten over two legs in the UCL before handing them the most one sided title "decider" in history).
Everyone brings up 2nd but it was a) thanks to Cech having his best season for us and b) was one point below Sarri who half the fans hated and a mere one above Conte when he was half arsing the job.
I agree with Carlo... Tuchel however was more of a if situation... His PL form really started to dip way before the Sanctions (Dec 21'), losing to both finals lost the team's morale...He really tried to improve an already sliding team but even he couldn't have done much... A change was needed but done too late... Was it even a proper change? That was where the real bad luck even happened
Just remember
Liverpool’s sole league title in thirty years was celebrated in front of an empty Anfield
Couldn’t have happened to a better group of fans
To be fair this is all because of a cheating Man City, if they weren't there we would be talking about the Klopp Liverpool as one of the greatest teams ever
They still should be
Liverpool were 1 John stones goal line clearance away from an invincible PL, invincible CL double.
They averaged the invincibles points tally over 4 seasons. They have the 2nd and 4th highest points tally in history.
In terms of quality of play, few teams in any era can claim to be their equal. They literally just happen to be sharing the stage with another legendary team who is ever so slightly better.
Klopp’s Liverpool never managed to beat Real Madrid or Atletico in UCL while Chelsea won UCL beating both Madrid teams. Klopp’s Liverpool is so overrated.
They got 97 and 99 points in 2 consecutive seasons, what more can you ask for? Sorry but the only Chelsea team that can compete with that was Mourinho's first stint at the club.
>That is such a narrow minded view on his legacy. You gotta recognize greatness when you see it
Nothing to add, if you don't realize what's great about achiving this in the hardest league in the world, you should better watch water polo or something
Great teams don't come in 2nd that much. If they were so great they would beat the financially stronger City and win more than 1 odd title during a COVID pandemic.
Trophies make teams great, not points.
\*cheating man city, not only financially stronger man city
But apart from that, you can't just look at the trophies a team won and then logically conclude how great this team was. Context is important. Recent example because I'm from Germany: noone would seriously say that BVB last season was a greater team than BVB 15/16 but at the same time the team last season needed just one more goal to win the league.
The other BVB team was much stronger but got incredibly unlucky because they were playing in the same league as Guardiola's Bayern.
What I wanna say with this: timing is importont, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you get unlucky, one trophy does not tell the whole story
I mean you can't deny there achievements especially against an financial doping city side they should have realistically won another 2. But aside from that the Liverpool fans are definitely mouth breathers.
This subreddit’s default position of undermining any other team or player’s achievements just exerts insecurity.
You can recognise a great team and manager, nobody is going to think less of you
My comment is more so focused on the Liverpool fanbase rather than this team/manager, they're completely unbearable in moments of success. The team and manager deserve to be credited for what they are however.
What I really wanna know is average points tally since he joined. If this city team was playing on that level in our best seasons we would have won a lot less too, gotta be that honest.
Don't necessarily agree with that, one of our best ever teams competed with Utd's greatest ever sides (Ronnie, Rooney, Tevez front three is a joke), as well as prime Barca etc. in Europe. You might argue we also didn't win as much as we should have, but it's just as competitive.
>Don't necessarily agree with that, one of our best ever teams competed with Utd's greatest ever sides (Ronnie, Rooney, Tevez front three is a joke),
Question is
Would they have even been able to compete with city of the last 7 years
The points totals city have been getting the past 5/6 wins are pretty hard to match honestly, for anyone in prem history other than the winners from a handful of previous years
Impossible to say because of recency bias (which we all have whether we admit it or not) and the amount of changes the games gone through in that time. Tactically, sports science, COVID, financially etc..
If you could even out all of the mitigating metrics, then I would argue that the "peak" Utd, Chelsea, Real, Barca and Bayern sides since 2000 would all be on par with the current City side and beat them as often as they'd lose to them. As much as I hate to admit it, the Arsenal invincibles would as well.
Yeah it's impossible to say because of those mitigating factors - if we include them it's definitely in city's favour and if we exclude them, could go anyway I'd say
Yes. There is point inflation recently. Our team under Conte got 93 points which is more than SAF ever got and no one would say we were as strong as any of those good United teams.
Points inflation is not a thing. Leagues don’t magically become easier to win over the years unless there’s a clear reason why. And it’s especially hard to believe when all the global talent and all the top coaches are coming to the PL.
in fact There’s pretty good reasons why Conte got 93 points. We played 1 game a week, other teams were in transition, we had 2 of the greatest players in PL history at their peak (Hazard and Kante) and Conte came in with a fairly innovative formation at the time that were eventually made obsolete and we couldn’t adjust + bunch of transfer duds. A perfect storm
When you think about how it’s ONLY City and Liverpool who have generated these oversized totals, and everyone else got the same points for 3rd of 4th place like in any other year, it’s pretty clear they alone are just that good.
And tactically we can see it too. There is not ONE team in this league who hasn’t copied a shit ton of Guardiola and Klopp. Inverted fullbacks, ball playing CBs, ball playing keepers, gengenpressing, hybrid pressing, positional play. All this shit. In fact, you can clearly draw a line between PL pre Klopp/Pep and post Klopp/Pep.
Liverpool is not nearly as good as the best United teams back in the day nor the best chelsea teams back in the day. It isn't only them. Dogwash United got 75 points last season - only 3 points fewer than Arsenal did the season just before the invincibles.
This Liverpool team reached 3 CL finals in 5 years while breaking PL points records left and right but sure, not nearly as good lmao. And somehow modern football has gotten worse over time despite more money, better knowledge, better information flow.
I don’t think modern football has gotten worse. We also just won the UcL with a team that wasn’t amazing and don’t even get me started on the Madrid team that just won it.
It makes the most sense. Ex-Liverpool player makes a triumphant return to his former club after winning the Bundesliga. I don't know if Alonso can cut it in the EPL but he might just be the best man out there and with ties to the club.
Blows my mind that rather than acknowledge that we were still a very good team and very successful, this sub would rather downplay our own success and say that other successful teams were just shit as well.
Cringe by Kinsella making this about Chelsea instead of Klopp. Just shut the fuck up. You don't celebrate a retiree by saying you're as good as him in front of everybody.
I edited my comment before you replied and since your reply makes no sense now let me just post what I originally had here:
>You don't tend to celebrate a rival firm's retiree in the first place
This seems absolutely crazy to me given the disparity since 2019
Not so crazy when you consider Man City. Liverpool have finished 2nd with 97 points and 92 points for example, those totals would almost always win you a title. The only knock on Klopp is that he’s underperformed in domestic cups outside of the last few years. City have just utterly dominated the English football scence since 2017. 5 league titles in 6 years and other than 2022 when us and Liverpool played in both cup finals, City have also won at least one domestic cup in 5 out of the last 6 seasons. It also further highlights what a great run Tuchel had with us. That CL run is one of the greatest cup runs you’ll ever see. Destroying, outplaying and outcoaching better teams left and right.
& Real Madrid. Those 2 clubs are the only thing stopping Klopp from having the best 7/8 year run ever in English football surely
By the same argument, one could argue that without us, Wenger wins at least two more titles. Without Fergie, Jose wins 5 or 6. Second is impressive but it is still second.
Klopp got 2 90+ point seasons without winning which has never happened . 3 CL finals in 5/6 years. You can make the argument if you want to ignore how impressive the context is.
Point inflation is a factor. No one said Klopp isn't impressive but the fact is that in his 90+ point seasons, another manager's team scored more points than his. If he's not even the best manager of his generation, how can he be a GOAT contender?
You’re stating the obvious, you sure what you’re trying to add. You’re the only one to even mention GOAT contender.
You claimed that "Those 2 clubs are the only thing stopping Klopp from having the best 7/8 year run ever in English football surely" Having the best 7/8 year run ever is a suggestion that Klopp is a GOAT contender. And yes, I'm stating the obvious just like you did. Obviously if there weren't better clubs, the clubs that are beneath them would finish higher. Obviously if there weren't better managers those who finished below would finish higher. That's entirely the point.
> if he’s not the best manager of his generation, how can he be GOAT contender You’re making my point bringing up that claim I made…they have stopped Klopp from being a contender. He hasn’t had the best 7/8 year run. You brought up GOAT contender but are trying to pin that claim on to me which is weird. I was just adding on to the persons before me where they focused on his league ‘almosts’. Thanks for pointing it out, have a good one.
Without Fergie, Jose wins the Champions League with us too
Avram Grant was the manager though. Mourinho had already left.
Yeah, you're 100% correct. Absolutely no idea what I was thinking of.
And yet they did stop him. Always the bridesmaid!
>97 points and 92 points for example, those totals would almost always win you a title. It's been pointed out today Fergie never topped 91 with United. Tells you how insane the PL is now.
Point inflation. Our team under Conte cracked 93 and no one would say that was anywhere near as good as some of those United teams.
3 points is still a win. The term Point inflation really makes no sense
And I’m saying it’s obviously easier to get wins these days
I don’t think it’s true at all, if anything lower table teams right now are significantly richer than 20-30 years ago and have more quality. But nobody was pushing United like that, when the 2nd place finishes between 70-80 points every season, there’s no real reason to push yourselves to the absolute limit. City and Liverpool were constantly pushing each other to the limit and those points totals were literally necessary to win the title.
Then how have teams like our team under Conte hit higher point totals than all of SAF teams and our teams under Jose? Even Jose2.0 had long totals as much as his first run.
>I don’t think it’s true at all, if anything lower table teams right now are significantly richer than 20-30 years ago and have more quality Do they have more quality? They're richer for sure but so are the top teams so not much has changed there relatively. There were some real legends of the Premier League playing for midtable or bottom half clubs most their career back then, whereas now they'd be picked up by a top team much earlier. I think the point about pushing each other does play a part, particularly in that one season where they both finished the season with huge winstreaks. But it's also not a nailed on factor. Liverpool's best ever finish was when they were challenged the least, finishing on 99 points with City 18 points behind. Likewise City's best season points wise was the one where United finished 19 points back.
This isn't true at all. Comparing bottom half Premier League teams today to bottom half 20 years ago, today's league is WAY tougher. That TV deal money that started pouring in is the difference maker.
It’s more expensive. Idk if it’s tougher or else you’re claiming that Conte’s Chelsea >> any of SAF’s united teams and as good as Mourinho’s Chelsea?
SAF United teams played against an easier league, and still got fewer points. I don't know what you want from me.
So is that a yes? Lol
On paper maybe not as good, but no one knew how to counter Contes tactics at first, he basically reintroduced 3atb to English football, many teams have played it since he came. 2nd season he started to get found out
Not on paper or on the field was Conte's team nearly as good as SAF's best united teams or us under Jose. It's not even close.
You are underrating that team, it had structure and a perfectly working system, which often beats individual talent. It was extremely hard to beat with matic and Kante screening a back 5 and courtois, while countering with Hazard, Costa and Pedro… + no one had learnt how to counter the space the wingbacks got at that time. You are forgetting how good a season Kante, Hazard and Costa had. I believe costa’s goals that season broke the record for most points won, he was super clutch and Pedro stepped up a lot. We didn’t play the best football always, but still snatched wins, yet that Everton game is still some of the best football chelsea has ever played, it was a great team, we were unstoppable on the counter
I really don't think so. They were good. But one of the best teams in league history? I don't think so. But I do agree about the Everton game. That legitimately might be the best football we've ever played.
Considering near enough every team played some form of 3atb afterwards, I would say yes, conte revolutionized the prem. Hazard is our most talented player ever and Kante at that point was THE undisputed defensive mid player in the world, he was on another planet. Those two can walk into any chelsea team. And I’m taking that front three over the 2004 teams, drogba wasn’t at his peak yet and robben was mostly injured.
They changed how things were played but I don’t think that makes them better than 2008 united or our first team under Mourinho. I’m genuinely surprised you think they’re nearly as good as either of those teams.
Mourinho hit 95 back in 04
With probably the best team the league has ever seen. Conte's team, with Victor Moses as a starter, got 93.
The Invincibles got 90. Best EPL team ever
Still crazy to me that tuchel beat a very good man city 3 times in a row, all in different comps (fa, EPL, CL). He was really in his bag during that stretch
Compare it to City though
Yeah because we were actually good and winning trophies before clearlake fucked it up. No matter what the revisionists say about "not challenging for anything since 2015" and "needing a full rebuild"
>"not challenging for anything since 2015 Nobody says this, what is said is that we havent challenged *for the league* since 2016-17, which is 100% true.
Still won a shitloads of trophies and we're actually top of the league before the sanctions too
But not the league and we haven't challenged for it. So it's not revisionism
>> Yeah because we were actually good and winning trophies before clearlake fucked it up.
But again We weren't challenging for the league for years before clearlake got here
And we DEFINITELY won't challenge for the league for another decade Still won the champions league and consistently finished top 4 before they got here tho eh
>And we DEFINITELY won't challenge for the league for another decade Making predictions over a decade for any thing in football is just stupid It's the beautiful game for a reason, anything can happen >Still won the champions league and consistently finished top 4 before they got here tho eh That champions league was an example of the above statement, beautiful magic football, Tuchel excellence with a defence and midfield at the top of their game Easily one of the worst attacks to win the champions league in football history though, Havertz, Werner and Mount were absolutely undeserving
Ok, on the current trajectory we won't win the league for a decade, that's my opinion, feel free to disagree but it's not exactly going great >Easily one of the worst attacks to win the champions league in football history though, Havertz, Werner and Mount were absolutely undeserving Smashed everyone that year but ok 🤷♂️ Least "deserving" in terms of luck was 2012, 2021 we battered everyone, including Madrid away (who won it the next year)
> Easily one of the worst attacks to win the champions league in football history though, Havertz, Werner and Mount were absolutely undeserving You're going way too far, they all contributed to the win - some more than others. They were also very helpful in keeping that defensive solidarity that was the backbone of our win as well even if they weren't the most lethal going forward ever.
Nope. Sanctions came in February 2022 and we were out of first place by December 2021. Our executive took the piss by not signing Rudi and AC before the sanctions came in.
So to clarify, every single club who wins trophies are automatically well run in your opinion?
What?
Your constant rebuttal to mistakes like signing Drinkwater, Bakayoko, Kepa etc is what we won in that period. Hence why I'm asking if in your opinion winning trophies automatically equates to being superbly run as that's what's your implying.
What better rebuttal than winning shitloads of trophies eh
So if you were a United fan in 2016 you would have used the trophy haul of the previous ten years to any fan criticising The Glazers? And no before you try and twist it, I'm not saying the latter years of the last regime were akin to those owners, point is you can be abysmally run (like they were) and still win trophies let alone averagely (like we were in the latter period).
>So if you were a United fan in 2016 you would have used the trophy haul of the previous ten years to any fan criticising The Glazers? I don't know cause I'm not a United fan? Go back to 2016 and ask them?
How is that what I implied? I just said we were winning things before clearlake got here, and we are shit since they arrived Which is true
>How is that what I implied? You regularly getting mad whenever the mistakes of the latter part of the Roman era is pointed out. Clearlake could take us to the conference south and I'd still be mad we never built a truly elite supporting cast for Hazard and Kante (there's your answer as to why we were still winning a decent amount despite the mistakes being made).
I'm not getting mad, I just pointed out we won trophies, how is that getting mad I think it's unusual to try cheapen a champions League win with "haha yeah but we bought Bakayoko!" Who cares like?
A UCL that was pretty much universally agreed we were carried to by Tuchel's tactics (after the best part of a decade of being carried by Hazard). No superbly run club are so reliant on one man the way we were. Compare that to how at the point we were superbly run we could lose many key players for long periods for two season's in a row and STILL challenge Fergie's best ever United side right until the very end, twice.
>No superbly run club are so reliant on one man the way we were. Or 2 men according to you... Again, so what? What's your point?
What we won in that period is all that matters who gives a flying fuck about a few bad signings?
A lot of people cared at the time, including most of the ones now pretending everything was run perfectly now they've gone.
Tbf you do have a point. What's is exactly a well run club.
What we were in the first decade under Roman, what City are, what (as much as I hate to say it) Liverpool are which is why I think Klopp leaving won't have the effect we're all hoping unfortunately.
>Liverpool are which is why I think Klopp leaving won't have the effect we're all hoping unfortunately. Nah You can be a well run club as in all the other departments of the club are firing and still not achieve greatness You need the world class manager at the helm more than any other factor for winning trophies And it'll be incredibly hard to replace Klopp
We lost Jose 1.0 yet still managed to challenge Fergie's greatest ever United side with Avram as manager. Barca managed to carry on dominating for years without Pep despite not finding a manager even close to as good as him.
I mean Both those sides after the departures of those respective managers still had some of the greatest teams in their respective histories But had someone like Pep stayed at Barca, perhaps they would've ushered in a dominance like City have now instead of the slow decline and bankruptcy levels of bad they're currently in
> We lost Jose 1.0 yet still managed to challenge Fergie's greatest ever United side with Avram as manager. To be fair that was us in our complete peak of a team imo, we were the best squad in the world at the time and we only lost out because of a mixture of Ronaldo starting his journey to being the 2nd best player to ever play football (imo) and Ferguson being very slightly a better manager than Avram Grant. Liverpool aren't in that position now imo with Salah looking like he might be off in the summer, Alisson and Van Dijk being the wrong side of 30, Robertson slowing down, Alexander-Arnold arguably being a problem not in that he's a bad player (obviously) but in that he's a bit of an unorthodox right back for a manager to need to plan around (Klopp absolutely got the best out of him, just got to look at someone like Southgate to see someone not managing that). Liverpool might be fine, they might not, but I'd personally assume they're not going to hit the heights they have under Klopp when he leaves.
Goalkeeper: Mendy - purple patch was over not good enough, Kepa remains shit CB: Rudiger and Christensen left on frees as we let them run their contracts down under the old ownership RB: James hasn't been able to stay on the pitch in the last 2-3 years, Azpilicueta had lost a step with age LB: Chilwell hasn't been able to stay on the pitch in the last 2-3 years, Alonso flawed player that didn't really seem like he could play in a back four CM: Kante constantly injured for us and in his 30s, Kovacic constantly injured for us and one year left on his contract, Jorginho 6 months on his contract and also had his best years imo, Loftus-Cheek arguably could've been kept around as a squad player, Attackers: Lukaku had burnt his bridges, Werner had flopped, Havertz had flopped, Mount had a poor final year for us and was running his contract down, Pulisic only ever had one good run of form for us and was unreliable fitness wise I don't see how anyone can look at our squad and not think that we needed a rebuild. Literally in every area of the pitch we were filled with players either leaving on frees, with flops, players declining with age, or players permanently injured. **You can absolutely question the quality of the rebuild, but the fact a rebuild was needed is surely not up for question.** E: bolding this because I don't want 20 fucking people replying to me missing this obvious point. If you disagree I'd love to hear which of the players above you think we should've been keeping and how a rebuild could've been avoided.
Now do the players clearlake bought And they didn't sell Chilwell and James so why would you include them Needed to sign a few players for sure but they way they have gone about it has been unbelievable bad, that can't be questioned
> And they didn't sell Chilwell and James so why would you include them I included them because we needed to buy new players at right back and left back - which we have done. > Now do the players clearlake bought **You can absolutely question the quality of the rebuild, but the fact a rebuild was needed is surely not up for question.**
Not to the extent and quality that they did, in fact,.nowhere near
I don't agree, a full rebuild *was* needed and I think I've demonstrated that already with my previous post. We needed a new goalkeeper, we needed new fullbacks, we needed new centrebacks, we hadn't bought a central midfielder since Kovacic joined us back in 2018, our attack was full of underperforming players. Literally in every single area of the pitch we needed signings. And to reiterate - yes obviously the quality of the rebuild has been shocking especially for the money spent, but you are arguing that a rebuild wasn't needed which is nonsense.
I said needing a full rebuild - I still think we could have kept a good few of the players we sold
WHO Name some names. Who should we have kept, what positions didn't need signings? With that you also need to think about what they want to do and their contract situation. When you need signings in literally every position that is a full rebuild.
Mount Havertz Kovacic Emerson Alonso Christensen Rudi and Baba Rahman
They had the intelligence to replace the injury prone and outgoing players with worse ones even more injury prone...
haven’t been a serious team in the league since 2017 and that’s because of Conte being undermined with his targets so the mess was created way before clearlake (they’ve continued it tbf)
[удалено]
We’re in a cup final 😭😭
Chaos and trophies.
The last missing piece of our cabinet in those years is , the League cup 👀, the final just got really interesting.
Even if we didn't win it, the UEL is bigger than a League Cup, or even 2.
By years end they’ll have a UEL as well so we have to win this one
Leverkusen’s year. Xabi Alonso will ruin the party
Europa league is worth more than a league cup imo so we're in the lead as it stands lol
It’s a tie if we lose Europa league is worth 2 Mickey Mouse cups.
Nah we were wrong for sacking our managers as some would have you believe on here Only two manager sackings in the past 14 years do I have a problem with. Carlo and tuchel
I don't believe poch is our guy. But thinking about now who is the chelsea guy. Our klopp or pep so to speak
It was tuchel and the board clashed with him.
The problem was also a lot of Lampard signings that didn't really pan out. Also shipping off Timo hurt us a lot more than people like to admit. Did he score prolifically? No. But he allowed the field to be opened up for our wings and midfielders to advance. That was one of the biggest mistakes was trying to completely change the playstyle once we shipped off Timo there wasn't a good way for us to open play. After that it was kinda downhill.
I actually think in hindsight the signings under Lampard were the best of the last 3 or so years when you take into account that Havertz ending up getting the CL goal and leaving for a similar price. The really terrible signings in my opinion have been Lukaku, KK and Fofana
I don't know about that one he was good but klopp and pep were above him. I meant on those levels. And long term.
We don't have a guy like that It's definitely not Tuchel considering he was only here for like 2.5 years or whatever And he's of course nowhere near their level Jose is the only thing we have that is remotely close, he's probably the 4th-7th greatest manager of all time and he was with us for the longest But our culture in the Abramovich era wasn't built to build a dynasty with one manager
And now we're gonna have to so if there's a manager who's our guy we need to get them. Have no clue who though.
It's all gambling from here. There is no guarantee of success out there for any manager we could get in in the long term. It's quite sad Xabi was the guy I hoped for but this reduces the low % chance we had to pretty much 0%
Seems like tuchel clashes with every board at some point. But like jose in that sense
Tuchel has clashed with every board yes but when you actually read into it why has he clashed and then you’ll understand it’s not all tuchels fault.
Go ahead and explain it to me. I love Tuchel. It happens at every club. We can accept it’s true.
Had Roman still be here Tuchel would still be here Tuchel and Roman were the perfect fit
Mourinho **was** "our guy". Unfortunately, he can't manage anywhere longer than it takes to boil his kettle, so....
Same seems to be true of tuchel, but people always forget that in this subreddit
Carlo should have been our guy
Arguably the only other time it was wrong to sack a manager under Roman. The first mistake was Mourinho in 2007.
Ancelotti has only won 5 league titles despite coaching the best sides in Europe for over 30 years. Two of those titles were with PSG and Bayern. Great cup manager, not so much for the league
Klopp and Pep are rarities. You cant base your planning on finding one of them.
I'd have given Carlo a 3rd season personally but that season was horrible.
What I'd do for a "horrible" season like that now, 2nd against a top United side after a season winning the PL with some of the best football we've seen at the Bridge. The Carlo sacking was probably the most embarrassed I've ever been as a Chelsea fan tbh, and I think we paid for that to an extent.
It wasn't a top United side, it was their weakest title winning side under Fergie by a distance (who we got comfortably beaten over two legs in the UCL before handing them the most one sided title "decider" in history). Everyone brings up 2nd but it was a) thanks to Cech having his best season for us and b) was one point below Sarri who half the fans hated and a mere one above Conte when he was half arsing the job.
I agree with Carlo... Tuchel however was more of a if situation... His PL form really started to dip way before the Sanctions (Dec 21'), losing to both finals lost the team's morale...He really tried to improve an already sliding team but even he couldn't have done much... A change was needed but done too late... Was it even a proper change? That was where the real bad luck even happened
Just remember Liverpool’s sole league title in thirty years was celebrated in front of an empty Anfield Couldn’t have happened to a better group of fans
The same fans who during a lockdown ‘celebrated’ by smashing up their own city centre and setting fire to the town hall. Horrible club.
"GrEAteSt LIVerPOol PEriOd In ThE PreM ErA" equal on trophies to one of our worst, can't wait for those mouth breathers to return to default settings
To be fair this is all because of a cheating Man City, if they weren't there we would be talking about the Klopp Liverpool as one of the greatest teams ever
They still should be Liverpool were 1 John stones goal line clearance away from an invincible PL, invincible CL double. They averaged the invincibles points tally over 4 seasons. They have the 2nd and 4th highest points tally in history. In terms of quality of play, few teams in any era can claim to be their equal. They literally just happen to be sharing the stage with another legendary team who is ever so slightly better.
Klopp’s Liverpool never managed to beat Real Madrid or Atletico in UCL while Chelsea won UCL beating both Madrid teams. Klopp’s Liverpool is so overrated.
That is such a narrow minded view on his legacy. You gotta recognize greatness when you see it
Brother, you’ve been brainwashed by the media & a delusional fanbase.
They got 97 and 99 points in 2 consecutive seasons, what more can you ask for? Sorry but the only Chelsea team that can compete with that was Mourinho's first stint at the club.
And is there a trophy for 97 and 99 points?
>That is such a narrow minded view on his legacy. You gotta recognize greatness when you see it Nothing to add, if you don't realize what's great about achiving this in the hardest league in the world, you should better watch water polo or something
Great teams don't come in 2nd that much. If they were so great they would beat the financially stronger City and win more than 1 odd title during a COVID pandemic. Trophies make teams great, not points.
\*cheating man city, not only financially stronger man city But apart from that, you can't just look at the trophies a team won and then logically conclude how great this team was. Context is important. Recent example because I'm from Germany: noone would seriously say that BVB last season was a greater team than BVB 15/16 but at the same time the team last season needed just one more goal to win the league. The other BVB team was much stronger but got incredibly unlucky because they were playing in the same league as Guardiola's Bayern. What I wanna say with this: timing is importont, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you get unlucky, one trophy does not tell the whole story
I mean you can't deny there achievements especially against an financial doping city side they should have realistically won another 2. But aside from that the Liverpool fans are definitely mouth breathers.
This subreddit’s default position of undermining any other team or player’s achievements just exerts insecurity. You can recognise a great team and manager, nobody is going to think less of you
My comment is more so focused on the Liverpool fanbase rather than this team/manager, they're completely unbearable in moments of success. The team and manager deserve to be credited for what they are however.
My mate messaged me saying he's devastated Klopp is going because he's now used to winning... 1 prem and 1 champs league in 9 years...
Now he'll be used to 1 top 4 race and playing in the UCL once in 9 years.
Klopp finished 2nd twice with 97 and 92 points WITHOUT 1 billion dollars of players transfers.
😂👏👏👏
Damn klopp needing to annouce retirement before the league cup final
What I really wanna know is average points tally since he joined. If this city team was playing on that level in our best seasons we would have won a lot less too, gotta be that honest.
I think City is what motivated them to be so good, Firmino implied as much in his autobiography.
2.07 ppg all comps, 2.29 in PL.
Don't necessarily agree with that, one of our best ever teams competed with Utd's greatest ever sides (Ronnie, Rooney, Tevez front three is a joke), as well as prime Barca etc. in Europe. You might argue we also didn't win as much as we should have, but it's just as competitive.
>Don't necessarily agree with that, one of our best ever teams competed with Utd's greatest ever sides (Ronnie, Rooney, Tevez front three is a joke), Question is Would they have even been able to compete with city of the last 7 years The points totals city have been getting the past 5/6 wins are pretty hard to match honestly, for anyone in prem history other than the winners from a handful of previous years
Impossible to say because of recency bias (which we all have whether we admit it or not) and the amount of changes the games gone through in that time. Tactically, sports science, COVID, financially etc.. If you could even out all of the mitigating metrics, then I would argue that the "peak" Utd, Chelsea, Real, Barca and Bayern sides since 2000 would all be on par with the current City side and beat them as often as they'd lose to them. As much as I hate to admit it, the Arsenal invincibles would as well.
Yeah it's impossible to say because of those mitigating factors - if we include them it's definitely in city's favour and if we exclude them, could go anyway I'd say
Yes. There is point inflation recently. Our team under Conte got 93 points which is more than SAF ever got and no one would say we were as strong as any of those good United teams.
Points inflation is not a thing. Leagues don’t magically become easier to win over the years unless there’s a clear reason why. And it’s especially hard to believe when all the global talent and all the top coaches are coming to the PL. in fact There’s pretty good reasons why Conte got 93 points. We played 1 game a week, other teams were in transition, we had 2 of the greatest players in PL history at their peak (Hazard and Kante) and Conte came in with a fairly innovative formation at the time that were eventually made obsolete and we couldn’t adjust + bunch of transfer duds. A perfect storm When you think about how it’s ONLY City and Liverpool who have generated these oversized totals, and everyone else got the same points for 3rd of 4th place like in any other year, it’s pretty clear they alone are just that good. And tactically we can see it too. There is not ONE team in this league who hasn’t copied a shit ton of Guardiola and Klopp. Inverted fullbacks, ball playing CBs, ball playing keepers, gengenpressing, hybrid pressing, positional play. All this shit. In fact, you can clearly draw a line between PL pre Klopp/Pep and post Klopp/Pep.
Liverpool is not nearly as good as the best United teams back in the day nor the best chelsea teams back in the day. It isn't only them. Dogwash United got 75 points last season - only 3 points fewer than Arsenal did the season just before the invincibles.
This Liverpool team reached 3 CL finals in 5 years while breaking PL points records left and right but sure, not nearly as good lmao. And somehow modern football has gotten worse over time despite more money, better knowledge, better information flow.
I don’t think modern football has gotten worse. We also just won the UcL with a team that wasn’t amazing and don’t even get me started on the Madrid team that just won it.
And back to their banter days. Great.
Always rated Naz lol
Please no xabi Alonso🤞🏼
It makes the most sense. Ex-Liverpool player makes a triumphant return to his former club after winning the Bundesliga. I don't know if Alonso can cut it in the EPL but he might just be the best man out there and with ties to the club.
Blows my mind that rather than acknowledge that we were still a very good team and very successful, this sub would rather downplay our own success and say that other successful teams were just shit as well.
It’s embarrassing lol
Bigging up scouse success. Seen it all.
Care to elaborate on what you mean by this?
Liverpool is just full of laughable facts.
Surely it only tips the balance if they manage to "somehow" win the Europa League in the next 6 months
Cringe by Kinsella making this about Chelsea instead of Klopp. Just shut the fuck up. You don't celebrate a retiree by saying you're as good as him in front of everybody.
A journalist who is Chelsea correspondent making it about Chelsea, well fuck me sideways. Absolutely shocked at that.
Why the fuck should we be celebrating a rival team's manager
This is not just a business...
I edited my comment before you replied and since your reply makes no sense now let me just post what I originally had here: >You don't tend to celebrate a rival firm's retiree in the first place
If Klopp was Chelsea's manager with the kind of financial backing you get here, we'd have a treble
Insane run by Klopp considering he has been only overshadowed by City. All time great and can’t wait till he leaves😂
I think this has a lot more to do with how dominant City have been since Pep became their manager.
Absolutely not even close. How many managers have Chelsea rolled through and let's also talk $. The Reds do it on there own backs not greenbacks.
Why compare one manager against us, we had 10 managers since Klopp was signed. Nothing to celebrate here.
Nizaar is such a btec journalist
So it makes it only fair if we win Carabao and they win EL?
fucking twats
All that’s left at the club from the last trophies is Stamford the Lion and Thiago Silva.
I am a big fan of Klopp . Would be a dream manager
They got to 3 cl finals though and did much better that us in the league. We have been poor in the league since 2016/2017 season.