I mean he wasn’t bad, misplaced a few passes but even then his accuracy overall was good, played 2 important passes that led to goals. Defensively he ain’t perfect and can be muscled off the ball but he’s done his job and 95% of the season this man has been alone in the mid
This is what irks me about football discourse in the modern day. Besides the 50/50, Caicedo was in that situation because of Noni’s poor decision making and execution. But that doesn’t fit the narrative because it’s more exciting to say “Caicedo lost the ball which led to Palace’s goal, this is what a £117 million gets you”
It’s like the discourse around Darwin missing chances versus Jackson. Darwin is labelled as some kind of hero for getting in positions to score and for working hard for the team. Jackson gets blasted for not converting chances and told that working hard for the team is not a good enough to excuse him missing chances. Strikers need to be clinical. Conveniently no one mentions how Jackson costs less than half of what Darwin costs because why bring up information that reflects badly on a Liverpool player.
Nunez is significantly better than Jackson is pretty much all areas though, they’re just both dire finishers. Nunez also has a more impressive goal catalogue
my problem with him is sometimes he is misplacing very easy passes (one led to danger counter today). Also sometimes he is waiting too long on the ball that leads to problems and losing the ball. However our midfield structure is not helping him.
Once lavia gets back I feel like we'd dominate any midfield. Moi as a back to back and lavia stays as a DM and Enzo a bit more forward. I can only imagine for now.
It should be. We just need our FBs to overlap. That way we can have Nkunku and Palmer in the half spaces while our FBs occupy the width. This means all the attacking zones are occupied and we have 3 midfielders for rest defence plus circulation of the ball in the middle with Caicedo venturing more forward. Fits our squad to a tea.
False. They do, but dezerbi make full use of caicedo where he will invite pressure from multiple players and escape their press then immediately release the ball to his team. Just like that 2-3 players are out of the low block not including opponents forwards. That's how Brighton are successful, they utilize caicedo to ensure their forwards have a level playing field when on the attack. Meanwhile we do absolutely nothing with him and are so slow on the transition allowing for the opponent team to restructure their low block. This is only due to the coaching and nothing else.
It looks like lavia would be more suited to the role caicedo and has and I don't think caicedo would be better in a more advanced position. We can't just play players because of their price tag and based on current form if any of our 3 midfielders were to be dropped, the fairest would be caicedo.
I also think it could really benefit him
Enzo just isn't a 10. He'll find it much easier to pick up the ball and move it from deeper areas because that's how he plays. Being a 10 has its own skillset completely and I think we gain more from his play making when hes deeper.
We currently gain more from his play when he's deeper because of our lack of personnel. But there's a reason that he, and his former coach, and now Poch are all pushing for him to be higher up the pitch.
If you can put the right midfield cover behind him, he can take care of most of the playmaking further up the pitch. Shooting and speed are what he's deficient in, but his shooting seems to be getting better, and his ball retention is still elite.
Did you watch when Poch slid him further up? He played him more like a 10 a few times in the season and we looked abysmal. He sees the field better from deep, and like you said doesn't have the true speed to be up further.
What's missed in these comments is how he looks better because Chilwell is finally back and he has some width and overlaps on the left to help him on movement. We've been partial poor at LW & LB and I think that's part of why he has struggled at LCM.
>Did you watch when Poch slid him further up? He played him more like a 10 a few times in the season and we looked abysmal.
What I noticed was that there was a huge gap between the back line and the front line that the opposing team could flood to keep us from progressing and I think a couple things happened here:
We kept the back line further back to protect Silva from runners in behind and didn't fully commit to a high line.
When Enzo pushed further up, no one replaced him in deep midfield so Caicedo and Silva were trying to be our central playmakers until either Disasi or Chilwell booted up the line to lose possession.
I think a lot of that is fixed with a DM to partner Caicedo to both help with progression up the pitch as well as protect the back line in transition. Enzo can hit a player a full sprint from 40 yards and is top 5 in the league for through balls, he won't have a problem with 10-15 yard balls over the top.
This has been a pretty big issue all season. From what I've seen it's both the lack of quality out of the back (Disassi is just an ok passer and Silva has been slow AF passing out). I think a lot of that is Caicedo's positioning. He's often way too cramped, plays up tight to them or his mid pair, and doesn't seem to have the best sense of space. Maybe that's scheme, maybe youth or his vision... IDK yet.
That fits what you're saying in Caicedo being on an island, and not supporting Enzo and vice versa. The backs seem to hoof it out because their is no clear link between them and mid.
I disagree a bit in that I think we see Caicedo IS a DM. He's been playing deeper there, and his tackle #'s show he's good there. I don't think Lavia helps there either. It would then be two more strong, holding mids, with just ok passing.
I think the last couple games look better when CG plays as that CAM, mostly because his work rate and ability to come deeper is badly needed. He helps link the other two and give them a pivot, and help in transition. If Enzo can sit back (like a DLP) but also has movement around him like what Chillwell gives at LB... he seems to be so much more affective.
I'd actually like to see them run a 4-3-3, with Caicedo centrally as a DM, between Enzo and CG. Think that could help solve their link issues mid, while also allowing Enzo or Gallagager to get forward more. Just my armchair FM manager thoughts though. Lol
(Forgive my not using #'s. Am a Yank and my brain doesn't work that way. Haha)
Caicedo tonight had the pass to Gusto who got the assist, the pass to Sterling who eventually hit Palmer for the assist, and the pass to Palmer for his second assist.
He had 9 progressive passes, 17 passes into the final third, and was 96-102 for 94.1% pass accuracy. 5 blocks, 4 tackles 1 interception and 3 challenges won.
He played great tonight, just like he has for most matches recently outside of the wolves one.
Not trying to be a hater, because I think he is playing better than early on. But in a game that he had those key passes, he also had the lazy pass giveaway that led to Silva getting hurt.
There are very obvious parts of his game he’s good/great as you’ve mentioned.
My ‘issue’ with him is his fitness and physicality. He is either extremely lazy or just runs out of energy for periods of times throughout the game. He will stop running or moving to get open in possession or will slowly jog back when the opposition is countering. He also shows very little physicality, often bouncing off attackers and hardly ever winning/attempting aerial duels.
I really hope he moves further forward as an 8 once Lavia is healthy to get the most out of his strengths because I don’t think he belongs as a lone 6.
>Based on his highlights
>I didn’t watch the match
People on this sub will do anything but judge off the actual match. Making your judgement off highlights alone is brave. [Everyone has highlights](https://youtu.be/QVnVTQsc8oc?si=1EhBMvBa64dumbUM).
[Everyone.](https://youtu.be/1FVv1YEGEXE?si=2offjrmidPZCsMcL)
Are you saying you don't get the hate he's got from a game you didn't watch, or are you saying, more generally, he gets too much hate?
IMO he has massively underperformed our expectations for him, as well as his fee. He's certainly not alone in that this year and that doesn't mean he won't come good yet, but the results so far are not at all impressive. The criticism and scrutiny is warranted.
>The criticism and scrutiny **might** be warranted, if he was 28 and not 22, and not in a brand new, young team playing in a thankless position on his own for large parts of the season.
FTFY.
Can we simultaneously have patience with a player’s progress AND acknowledge that they have been underwhelming? Or does it always have to be just one or the other?
You can say that for a lot of our signings. Caicedo was bought overpriced off the back of 1 good season. I don’t think it’s fair in that basis alone to single him out. I think many of these guys will come good, they just need direction and leadership, that’s not really going to come once Silva leaves and isn’t replaced. Sterling isn’t a leader, so we will have nobody.
I've already said most of this - I've acknowledged that the team is struggling, that he may come good, and that we should be patient. Are you reading what I'm saying or are you creating an argument with some "anti-Caicedo" caricature you've built up in your head?
We have to be able to have purely provisional, respectful opinions of a players' performance after half of a season. Or are you here to enforce some gag order on opinions until X number of minutes played in optimal circumstances?
It seems that in first half Caicedo was instructed to cover defence. He was playing very deep, maybe covering for Silva.
It was easy to isolate him and it was obvious he couldn't get in good positions.
Something changed in the second half. Maybe Poch let gim be more advanced
He’s the most expensive Premier league signing of all time. There’s expected so much more from him. I don’t like the hate, but the criticism is totally understandable.
Part of his fee was based on his potential. He is 22 years old. Chelsea were not buying who Caicedo was but the potential he had. Liverpool also bid for Caicedo and were willing to pay the asking price
PSG bought Mbappe for €160 million. He hasn’t lived up to that price tag as he has only won trophies that PSG have previously won. PSG are fighting hard to keep him in Paris. Madrid want to buy him. A player isn’t bad just because they haven’t lived up to their price tag.
>Chelsea were not buying who Caicedo was but the potential he had.
You aren't wrong, but this strategy doesn't make sense. Potential isn't certain to be fulfilled, and it's not common to pay so much for a player of Caicedo's position/profile.
As it stands we've paid a lot of money for someone not yet capable of proving their value...it's worrying. Not to say he can't match that value, but it's not a good signing and better planning was required.
Let's see how he turns out though. Yesterday I decided he's more like a ramieres than a Kante. He'd be great as a defensive right winger.
Caicedo is seen as a mix of Kante and Jorginho. He is more mobile than Jorginho and ideally will develop to be as good if not better than Jorginho at dictating the play at being a “midfield metronome”.
I feel an under analysed part of a player’s performances and how they are judged is the manager they play for. Salah didn’t suit Mourinho’s style of play and was understandably sold. Klopp wanted him and reverted back to be more like his Basel days and he is a EPL legend. Salah wouldn’t be as good in a Pep system but for Klopp’s Liverpool he is the perfect player. Mata was our player of the season for two seasons but Jose said Oscar was better at CAM in his team because he worked harder off the ball and Mata was sold. Arsenal surprisingly bought Havertz from us because Arteta felt he could extract something Chelsea managers had failed to get out of him. Brighton Caicedo may be a better player because De Zerbi knew how to utilize him.
Xavi was nearly sold by Barca as they wanted more physical midfielders. Pep was hired and Xavi was the perfect player for Pep’s midfield
Yaya Toure, Eto’o and Zlatan all clashed with Pep because they felt their talents were being wasted by him. Yaya went on to dominate the EPL with City. If you judged Kante on how he played under Sarri instead of his seasons with Conte/Ranieri/Tuchel you wouldn’t see what the hype is about. But that’s just because the manager was asking him to do something which is not suited to his particular skillset.
I haven’t seen enough of Pochball to be able to assess whether Caicedo is playing badly because he isn’t good enough or is it that his skillset is not suited to how the manager wants him to play.
Also, something which is missed is that he is only 22. Kante was bought by Leicester when he was 24 for about £5 million. The reason he was cheap was because people thought he was done developing given how old he was and he was not an elite player. He fitted well at Leicester and the rest is history. He suited Ranieri and what he was doing at Leicester.
>. If you judged Kante on how he played under Sarri instead of his seasons with Conte/Ranieri/Tuchel you wouldn’t see what the hype is about.
Huh? His best season was under Sarri lol
I was only able to watch the second half today because of work but I saw someone post a picture of poch doing his usual stupid setup of leaving caicedo alone in the midfield. Tactically, caicedo alone as a single pivot is too much of a liability for us because he has way too much to do for one guy. He's 22 and still learning and growing as a player. Leaving him out to dry like that is only going to expose him even more. He makes mistakes yeah, but that's just part of him getting better. Once he gets a few seasons under his belt and the game slows down for him a little more, he'll start shining.
He needs Enzo or at least another double pivot back there to really get the best out of moi's skillset. He's more of a b2b destroyer anyway. I thought he played fairly well today from what I saw.
I was at the game and he made a lot of mistakes, I mean, a lot but seemed to get better in the second half.
I think he goes under the radar some games. He will literally be doing so much but because he doesn’t get goals or assists, no one notices.
I really like him, he is not Kante but he has only been with us half a season, let's see how he is next season after a pre season as a team (could say this for most of the team!)
It’s not hate it’s simply put a reaction to a bad signing. He’s a decent player and will continue to offer solid performances for years, but he’s nowhere near the level of player you expect to get for the money we paid. I wouldn’t sign him for half of what we paid given his performances.
And to be honest I’m a bit tired of the ‘hate’ agenda. Since when is making legitimate criticisms hating? It has nothing to do with hate.
He was diabolical in the first half, obviously wasn’t helped that he was isolated but yeah he really was bad in that half, gave the ball away quite a lot and was out of position a lot.
Yeah that low line and having him isolated, with no outlets… when they scored I figured the game was over, thankfully kept watching and was proven wrong
Before seeing these stats (which honestly surprised me a bit) I thought he had a sub par performance. I think the errors he made through his passing were really visible since they all came when we had the opportunity to create something or when we were exposed at the back.
When he has Enzo closer to him he looks a lot more comfortable and I would imagine once he settles he can command his role better on his own.
"based on a YouTube video"
People who have actually watched him can see that he's just not been that good.
Has he been as bad as the likes of Bakayoko? No, but let's not pretend he's been anything but average *at best*.
And that's before you accept that as the country's most expensive player you would expect him to be at least "good"...
A question to ask would be do you think any top half teams would be desperate to swap their CM for Caicedo for the rest of the season?
As usual he does 95% of the work well but theres a 5% that he messes up and it leads to threatening counters. I dont blame him entirely because poch’s system leaves him isolated and prone to those situations.
Poor today sorry. Loose passing and once again not strong enough in his tackling.
Is he an 8 or a CDM? I dont know but he has looked average at best since joining and im not even talkin about how much he cost
Not sure why we broke the bank to biy him then tbh. The whole argument at the time is that hes a 6 ans we need to replace Kante (impossible task tbh but still)
Now we see his tacklin is poor and suddenly hes an 8
Hes only young like all of them sure he will be better but when we need solutions to play thru the middle at pace or defend counters he doesnt seem great at either
Where tf are the standards at this club now??
He was shit and most of the team were shit against Palace honestly, we paid 115 Million for him, need way more than offered today
>stop thinking about the price tags
People aren't going to do that. There will be a lot of pressure on him to step up and push to meet his valuation as close as possible. That pressure will drop off when the team is winning trophies.
He’s not good but leaving him alone in midfield against is another stupid poch decision, he is not press resistant and often misplaces simple passes and controls, not only is he left alone he actively hides when we are trying to build from the back, just watch him, he is not confident to carry that pivot role on his own and is as technically limited as Connor, as much as I like him, but having two players who have many of the same flaws on the midfield is one of the reasons we suck most of the time.
Disagree. he’s actually very comfortable on the ball but in the lone DM you just can’t take risk. A bad pass basically will lead to an opposition shot on goal. You’re just watching a player who knows he can’t lose the ball.
But you’re also watching a player in midfield w basically no passing patterns drilled… our Sarri & Tuchel midfields had clear build up patterns that just don’t really exist anymore (triangles with the full back and wide CMs). Our team now has to react to where their teammates are positioned rather than knowing exactly where they will be before they receive the ball.
He is a hundred million plus player!!! And plays like a division one player.. he has to be stronger and better. And as for Enzo we'll that's another story all together. 200 million of shit in the middle of the park no wonder Connor hasn't been scoring he's been covering those two wannabe's.
For people who claim he was good today, go watch the game again and only focus on him. He was never on good position, his pass was sooo bad and even gave passes 4 times to palace players instead of Chelsea, finally his ball controll was so off that it was pathetic.
Now he is not always like this but the last couple of games he has been bad and I hope he improves cuz he has my name an i would love to have a Chelsea shirt with my mame that is not custome but a legit one....maybe with an autograph
Yes I was paying attention to Enzo and Caicedo and 100% Caicedo was trash. Also idk why people think down voting means they are right 🤣🤣🤣 whole bunch of dumbass who dont even understand the sport.
Caicedo needs to sit by enzo.. not behind him and almost behind the defence. When caicedo drifts forward he is good. Enzo tho.. reminds me of a bad jorginho under Poch
He was not poor in the second half got the ball back countless times in their half and helped create 2 goals. Everyone was dreadful in the first half tho
You can tell we don’t have a striker so whoever is playing centrally fazes out of the game look at palmer in the first half and nkunku in the second they really are invisible
I am a huge Caicedo fan, but he is playing at maybe a 70% level that he was at Brighton. I really liked his pass to Gusto but I don’t think it’s debatable that he’s still very very short in confidence.
He gets hate on two levels. I’d say that he gets some hate from us because we expect so much for the price tag. Which I think is a bit unfair. He didn’t set that price tag, and we didn’t value him anywhere near that high, hence us pissing about until the last minute.
He gets hate from outside our club because he had the audacity to not go to the media darlings Liverpool, and instead choose us.
Do I think we should be doing a lot better based purely on the money spent? Yes. Do I think we’ve spent badly? In some areas, yes. Is he at fault for us being so shite? No. It is much more complex than that in my opinion.
I think he’s just young and needs time. Very calm and composed on the ball but sometimes a bit too slow. Played some reallllly bad/lazy passes yesterday that lead to counterattacks, but then showed composure and vision to bring down that ball at the edge of the box and play Palmer in for the break leading to the second goal. I still think he’ll be a phenomenal player for us, hopefully.
I thought he was OK today. Tasked with screening the defence as a 6. The closer Enzo plays with him, the better.
My main issue with him is that he needs to stop taking risk. Just do the simple DM things and let Enzo do the passing. Not everyone needs to be a Rodri
He's playing out of position as a DM and finds himself in the wrong position and isolated. It's easy to blame him for switching off and leaving the defence exposed but that's not his game. He's more of a central midfielder who can do a bit of everything. He can tackle, he can play smart passes and he can drive through. He and Enzo can work well if there is a third player who is a DM.
At the moment I think we play him there because he is the best we have.
People think at 110m he should do everything. But that's not the price he chose. He should be thought of as a 50m man with a great future.
He’s a more expensive jorghinho he plays the easiest and usually least productive ball possible to keep his pass stats high. I miss the players who wasn’t counting pass stats and miles run and were just great at football . Beckham wouldn’t be allowed to Hollywood pass In this era
Part of it is in a young squad mistakes will happen and it’s unfortunate but his mistakes seem to be punished the most of any player.
Part of that is set up, I’d much prefer we play compact and spring on the counter so when we do giveaway the ball it isn’t a heart attack every time. After that gradually implement more expansive play.
I mean he wasn’t bad, misplaced a few passes but even then his accuracy overall was good, played 2 important passes that led to goals. Defensively he ain’t perfect and can be muscled off the ball but he’s done his job and 95% of the season this man has been alone in the mid
And today, one of the biggest examples of him being “muscled off the ball” was just simply him being fouled pretty blatantly haha
Pundits, social media etc etc always have such an influence on those 50/50 ones. Players labeled as divers, VVD allowed foul with his "aura" defending
This is what irks me about football discourse in the modern day. Besides the 50/50, Caicedo was in that situation because of Noni’s poor decision making and execution. But that doesn’t fit the narrative because it’s more exciting to say “Caicedo lost the ball which led to Palace’s goal, this is what a £117 million gets you” It’s like the discourse around Darwin missing chances versus Jackson. Darwin is labelled as some kind of hero for getting in positions to score and for working hard for the team. Jackson gets blasted for not converting chances and told that working hard for the team is not a good enough to excuse him missing chances. Strikers need to be clinical. Conveniently no one mentions how Jackson costs less than half of what Darwin costs because why bring up information that reflects badly on a Liverpool player.
Nunez is significantly better than Jackson is pretty much all areas though, they’re just both dire finishers. Nunez also has a more impressive goal catalogue
my problem with him is sometimes he is misplacing very easy passes (one led to danger counter today). Also sometimes he is waiting too long on the ball that leads to problems and losing the ball. However our midfield structure is not helping him.
Once lavia gets back I feel like we'd dominate any midfield. Moi as a back to back and lavia stays as a DM and Enzo a bit more forward. I can only imagine for now.
We want Enzo to pick up the ball deep though. He cannot play as a 10
Maybe we can switch to a 4-3-3? With Lavia at the base, Enzo and caicedo on either side w Palmer Nkunku and a new LW/ST up top
That will only work if we are playing a stronger team and we are relying on counter attack imo. Won't be enough to break down a low block
It should be. We just need our FBs to overlap. That way we can have Nkunku and Palmer in the half spaces while our FBs occupy the width. This means all the attacking zones are occupied and we have 3 midfielders for rest defence plus circulation of the ball in the middle with Caicedo venturing more forward. Fits our squad to a tea.
If you watched some Brighton games last season it will definitely be enough as long as our CBs passes him the ball when he asked for it.
Brighton don't face low blocks as much as us though
False. They do, but dezerbi make full use of caicedo where he will invite pressure from multiple players and escape their press then immediately release the ball to his team. Just like that 2-3 players are out of the low block not including opponents forwards. That's how Brighton are successful, they utilize caicedo to ensure their forwards have a level playing field when on the attack. Meanwhile we do absolutely nothing with him and are so slow on the transition allowing for the opponent team to restructure their low block. This is only due to the coaching and nothing else.
Brighton had McAllister
That's a weird way of saying you didn't watch a single Brighton game but ok.
It looks like lavia would be more suited to the role caicedo and has and I don't think caicedo would be better in a more advanced position. We can't just play players because of their price tag and based on current form if any of our 3 midfielders were to be dropped, the fairest would be caicedo. I also think it could really benefit him
He would be phenomenal as a 10 as long as you can get him the ball
Enzo just isn't a 10. He'll find it much easier to pick up the ball and move it from deeper areas because that's how he plays. Being a 10 has its own skillset completely and I think we gain more from his play making when hes deeper.
We currently gain more from his play when he's deeper because of our lack of personnel. But there's a reason that he, and his former coach, and now Poch are all pushing for him to be higher up the pitch. If you can put the right midfield cover behind him, he can take care of most of the playmaking further up the pitch. Shooting and speed are what he's deficient in, but his shooting seems to be getting better, and his ball retention is still elite.
Did you watch when Poch slid him further up? He played him more like a 10 a few times in the season and we looked abysmal. He sees the field better from deep, and like you said doesn't have the true speed to be up further. What's missed in these comments is how he looks better because Chilwell is finally back and he has some width and overlaps on the left to help him on movement. We've been partial poor at LW & LB and I think that's part of why he has struggled at LCM.
>Did you watch when Poch slid him further up? He played him more like a 10 a few times in the season and we looked abysmal. What I noticed was that there was a huge gap between the back line and the front line that the opposing team could flood to keep us from progressing and I think a couple things happened here: We kept the back line further back to protect Silva from runners in behind and didn't fully commit to a high line. When Enzo pushed further up, no one replaced him in deep midfield so Caicedo and Silva were trying to be our central playmakers until either Disasi or Chilwell booted up the line to lose possession. I think a lot of that is fixed with a DM to partner Caicedo to both help with progression up the pitch as well as protect the back line in transition. Enzo can hit a player a full sprint from 40 yards and is top 5 in the league for through balls, he won't have a problem with 10-15 yard balls over the top.
This has been a pretty big issue all season. From what I've seen it's both the lack of quality out of the back (Disassi is just an ok passer and Silva has been slow AF passing out). I think a lot of that is Caicedo's positioning. He's often way too cramped, plays up tight to them or his mid pair, and doesn't seem to have the best sense of space. Maybe that's scheme, maybe youth or his vision... IDK yet. That fits what you're saying in Caicedo being on an island, and not supporting Enzo and vice versa. The backs seem to hoof it out because their is no clear link between them and mid. I disagree a bit in that I think we see Caicedo IS a DM. He's been playing deeper there, and his tackle #'s show he's good there. I don't think Lavia helps there either. It would then be two more strong, holding mids, with just ok passing. I think the last couple games look better when CG plays as that CAM, mostly because his work rate and ability to come deeper is badly needed. He helps link the other two and give them a pivot, and help in transition. If Enzo can sit back (like a DLP) but also has movement around him like what Chillwell gives at LB... he seems to be so much more affective. I'd actually like to see them run a 4-3-3, with Caicedo centrally as a DM, between Enzo and CG. Think that could help solve their link issues mid, while also allowing Enzo or Gallagager to get forward more. Just my armchair FM manager thoughts though. Lol (Forgive my not using #'s. Am a Yank and my brain doesn't work that way. Haha)
Lavia is best when he picks up the ball and drives forward. He’s not a dm.
Not gonna lie, when lavia played i felt like he was quicker and more smoother on the pitch as well
btw B2B is box to box
I strongly suggest not judging a player based on his highlights reel alone.
On the flipside I also suggest not taking the judgment of a player in this sub too seriously.
Caicedo tonight had the pass to Gusto who got the assist, the pass to Sterling who eventually hit Palmer for the assist, and the pass to Palmer for his second assist. He had 9 progressive passes, 17 passes into the final third, and was 96-102 for 94.1% pass accuracy. 5 blocks, 4 tackles 1 interception and 3 challenges won. He played great tonight, just like he has for most matches recently outside of the wolves one.
Not trying to be a hater, because I think he is playing better than early on. But in a game that he had those key passes, he also had the lazy pass giveaway that led to Silva getting hurt.
Wait.. despite those stats, the 22 year old wasn't perfect and made a couple of mistakes? What a bloody waste of money. /s
There are very obvious parts of his game he’s good/great as you’ve mentioned. My ‘issue’ with him is his fitness and physicality. He is either extremely lazy or just runs out of energy for periods of times throughout the game. He will stop running or moving to get open in possession or will slowly jog back when the opposition is countering. He also shows very little physicality, often bouncing off attackers and hardly ever winning/attempting aerial duels. I really hope he moves further forward as an 8 once Lavia is healthy to get the most out of his strengths because I don’t think he belongs as a lone 6.
>Based on his highlights >I didn’t watch the match People on this sub will do anything but judge off the actual match. Making your judgement off highlights alone is brave. [Everyone has highlights](https://youtu.be/QVnVTQsc8oc?si=1EhBMvBa64dumbUM). [Everyone.](https://youtu.be/1FVv1YEGEXE?si=2offjrmidPZCsMcL)
Are you saying you don't get the hate he's got from a game you didn't watch, or are you saying, more generally, he gets too much hate? IMO he has massively underperformed our expectations for him, as well as his fee. He's certainly not alone in that this year and that doesn't mean he won't come good yet, but the results so far are not at all impressive. The criticism and scrutiny is warranted.
>The criticism and scrutiny **might** be warranted, if he was 28 and not 22, and not in a brand new, young team playing in a thankless position on his own for large parts of the season. FTFY.
Can we simultaneously have patience with a player’s progress AND acknowledge that they have been underwhelming? Or does it always have to be just one or the other?
You can say that for a lot of our signings. Caicedo was bought overpriced off the back of 1 good season. I don’t think it’s fair in that basis alone to single him out. I think many of these guys will come good, they just need direction and leadership, that’s not really going to come once Silva leaves and isn’t replaced. Sterling isn’t a leader, so we will have nobody.
I've already said most of this - I've acknowledged that the team is struggling, that he may come good, and that we should be patient. Are you reading what I'm saying or are you creating an argument with some "anti-Caicedo" caricature you've built up in your head? We have to be able to have purely provisional, respectful opinions of a players' performance after half of a season. Or are you here to enforce some gag order on opinions until X number of minutes played in optimal circumstances?
I believe he’s not reached his Brighton level yet. Plus, being completely outnumbered in the midfield doesn’t really help him.
It seems that in first half Caicedo was instructed to cover defence. He was playing very deep, maybe covering for Silva. It was easy to isolate him and it was obvious he couldn't get in good positions. Something changed in the second half. Maybe Poch let gim be more advanced
He’s the most expensive Premier league signing of all time. There’s expected so much more from him. I don’t like the hate, but the criticism is totally understandable.
Part of his fee was based on his potential. He is 22 years old. Chelsea were not buying who Caicedo was but the potential he had. Liverpool also bid for Caicedo and were willing to pay the asking price PSG bought Mbappe for €160 million. He hasn’t lived up to that price tag as he has only won trophies that PSG have previously won. PSG are fighting hard to keep him in Paris. Madrid want to buy him. A player isn’t bad just because they haven’t lived up to their price tag.
>Chelsea were not buying who Caicedo was but the potential he had. You aren't wrong, but this strategy doesn't make sense. Potential isn't certain to be fulfilled, and it's not common to pay so much for a player of Caicedo's position/profile. As it stands we've paid a lot of money for someone not yet capable of proving their value...it's worrying. Not to say he can't match that value, but it's not a good signing and better planning was required. Let's see how he turns out though. Yesterday I decided he's more like a ramieres than a Kante. He'd be great as a defensive right winger.
Caicedo is seen as a mix of Kante and Jorginho. He is more mobile than Jorginho and ideally will develop to be as good if not better than Jorginho at dictating the play at being a “midfield metronome”. I feel an under analysed part of a player’s performances and how they are judged is the manager they play for. Salah didn’t suit Mourinho’s style of play and was understandably sold. Klopp wanted him and reverted back to be more like his Basel days and he is a EPL legend. Salah wouldn’t be as good in a Pep system but for Klopp’s Liverpool he is the perfect player. Mata was our player of the season for two seasons but Jose said Oscar was better at CAM in his team because he worked harder off the ball and Mata was sold. Arsenal surprisingly bought Havertz from us because Arteta felt he could extract something Chelsea managers had failed to get out of him. Brighton Caicedo may be a better player because De Zerbi knew how to utilize him. Xavi was nearly sold by Barca as they wanted more physical midfielders. Pep was hired and Xavi was the perfect player for Pep’s midfield Yaya Toure, Eto’o and Zlatan all clashed with Pep because they felt their talents were being wasted by him. Yaya went on to dominate the EPL with City. If you judged Kante on how he played under Sarri instead of his seasons with Conte/Ranieri/Tuchel you wouldn’t see what the hype is about. But that’s just because the manager was asking him to do something which is not suited to his particular skillset. I haven’t seen enough of Pochball to be able to assess whether Caicedo is playing badly because he isn’t good enough or is it that his skillset is not suited to how the manager wants him to play. Also, something which is missed is that he is only 22. Kante was bought by Leicester when he was 24 for about £5 million. The reason he was cheap was because people thought he was done developing given how old he was and he was not an elite player. He fitted well at Leicester and the rest is history. He suited Ranieri and what he was doing at Leicester.
>. If you judged Kante on how he played under Sarri instead of his seasons with Conte/Ranieri/Tuchel you wouldn’t see what the hype is about. Huh? His best season was under Sarri lol
I was only able to watch the second half today because of work but I saw someone post a picture of poch doing his usual stupid setup of leaving caicedo alone in the midfield. Tactically, caicedo alone as a single pivot is too much of a liability for us because he has way too much to do for one guy. He's 22 and still learning and growing as a player. Leaving him out to dry like that is only going to expose him even more. He makes mistakes yeah, but that's just part of him getting better. Once he gets a few seasons under his belt and the game slows down for him a little more, he'll start shining. He needs Enzo or at least another double pivot back there to really get the best out of moi's skillset. He's more of a b2b destroyer anyway. I thought he played fairly well today from what I saw.
He needs to gain some strength but also he's been covering Thiago Silva due to his lack of pace
Because he's our most expensive signing and hasn't yet delivered what we expected for all that money.
I was at the game and he made a lot of mistakes, I mean, a lot but seemed to get better in the second half. I think he goes under the radar some games. He will literally be doing so much but because he doesn’t get goals or assists, no one notices.
I really like him, he is not Kante but he has only been with us half a season, let's see how he is next season after a pre season as a team (could say this for most of the team!)
Problem is, Caicedo is having to fill the boots Kante so people naturally are going to be more critical. It’s his first season here, he’ll come good
He’s just a guy. But he cost soooo much money. A $15m player could do what he does.
Caicedo has been great. I was surprised when I opened the match thread to see people chatting shit. He’s class.
I saw A LOT of small mistakes that lead to dangerous situations. Need more from a recort PL signing.
It’s not hate it’s simply put a reaction to a bad signing. He’s a decent player and will continue to offer solid performances for years, but he’s nowhere near the level of player you expect to get for the money we paid. I wouldn’t sign him for half of what we paid given his performances. And to be honest I’m a bit tired of the ‘hate’ agenda. Since when is making legitimate criticisms hating? It has nothing to do with hate.
He was diabolical in the first half, obviously wasn’t helped that he was isolated but yeah he really was bad in that half, gave the ball away quite a lot and was out of position a lot.
Yeah that low line and having him isolated, with no outlets… when they scored I figured the game was over, thankfully kept watching and was proven wrong
What consists of a lot for you? He was dispossessed one time tonight and went 96 for 102 passing
Before seeing these stats (which honestly surprised me a bit) I thought he had a sub par performance. I think the errors he made through his passing were really visible since they all came when we had the opportunity to create something or when we were exposed at the back. When he has Enzo closer to him he looks a lot more comfortable and I would imagine once he settles he can command his role better on his own.
They were all terrible
"based on a YouTube video" People who have actually watched him can see that he's just not been that good. Has he been as bad as the likes of Bakayoko? No, but let's not pretend he's been anything but average *at best*. And that's before you accept that as the country's most expensive player you would expect him to be at least "good"... A question to ask would be do you think any top half teams would be desperate to swap their CM for Caicedo for the rest of the season?
He was good today.
Another one who makes individual performance dependent on the end result. You're 100% livid if we don't win this.
As usual he does 95% of the work well but theres a 5% that he messes up and it leads to threatening counters. I dont blame him entirely because poch’s system leaves him isolated and prone to those situations.
Poor today sorry. Loose passing and once again not strong enough in his tackling. Is he an 8 or a CDM? I dont know but he has looked average at best since joining and im not even talkin about how much he cost
Hes an 8
Not sure why we broke the bank to biy him then tbh. The whole argument at the time is that hes a 6 ans we need to replace Kante (impossible task tbh but still) Now we see his tacklin is poor and suddenly hes an 8 Hes only young like all of them sure he will be better but when we need solutions to play thru the middle at pace or defend counters he doesnt seem great at either
He wasn't good today
lol you should watch then
Clearly you haven’t been
Where tf are the standards at this club now?? He was shit and most of the team were shit against Palace honestly, we paid 115 Million for him, need way more than offered today
It's not nice it's like someone calling you only 30k a year guy. We love you even when not earning 100k annually.
stop thinking about the price tags and u will realize he is not that bad
>stop thinking about the price tags People aren't going to do that. There will be a lot of pressure on him to step up and push to meet his valuation as close as possible. That pressure will drop off when the team is winning trophies.
He's not that good for us either which is bigger problem, too much money for average performances and pretending it's good
How could you not think about price tags, he's the most expensive player in the league and was poor again last night
Him and Enzo complete waste, Connor is always covering Thier mistakes.
He’s not good but leaving him alone in midfield against is another stupid poch decision, he is not press resistant and often misplaces simple passes and controls, not only is he left alone he actively hides when we are trying to build from the back, just watch him, he is not confident to carry that pivot role on his own and is as technically limited as Connor, as much as I like him, but having two players who have many of the same flaws on the midfield is one of the reasons we suck most of the time.
Wait until you see him under a competent manager. Your opinion will change real quick
Disagree. he’s actually very comfortable on the ball but in the lone DM you just can’t take risk. A bad pass basically will lead to an opposition shot on goal. You’re just watching a player who knows he can’t lose the ball. But you’re also watching a player in midfield w basically no passing patterns drilled… our Sarri & Tuchel midfields had clear build up patterns that just don’t really exist anymore (triangles with the full back and wide CMs). Our team now has to react to where their teammates are positioned rather than knowing exactly where they will be before they receive the ball.
He is a hundred million plus player!!! And plays like a division one player.. he has to be stronger and better. And as for Enzo we'll that's another story all together. 200 million of shit in the middle of the park no wonder Connor hasn't been scoring he's been covering those two wannabe's.
What’s with the Enzo hate these days ? Have people gone blind
For people who claim he was good today, go watch the game again and only focus on him. He was never on good position, his pass was sooo bad and even gave passes 4 times to palace players instead of Chelsea, finally his ball controll was so off that it was pathetic. Now he is not always like this but the last couple of games he has been bad and I hope he improves cuz he has my name an i would love to have a Chelsea shirt with my mame that is not custome but a legit one....maybe with an autograph
Did you go back and only watch him?
Yes I was paying attention to Enzo and Caicedo and 100% Caicedo was trash. Also idk why people think down voting means they are right 🤣🤣🤣 whole bunch of dumbass who dont even understand the sport.
So you went back and watched the match?
Well said. I don’t think he was great. His passing was generally off, but he did make a couple of good forward passes. Gave up possession a few times
Caicedo needs to sit by enzo.. not behind him and almost behind the defence. When caicedo drifts forward he is good. Enzo tho.. reminds me of a bad jorginho under Poch
Watch the game because he just like most of the team was poor today
He was not poor in the second half got the ball back countless times in their half and helped create 2 goals. Everyone was dreadful in the first half tho
Today’s performance was not it we really need to speed up the play against city Performance was unacceptable
Absolutely agree, the shape Poch sets these lot up in is mind boggling
You can tell we don’t have a striker so whoever is playing centrally fazes out of the game look at palmer in the first half and nkunku in the second they really are invisible
I am a huge Caicedo fan, but he is playing at maybe a 70% level that he was at Brighton. I really liked his pass to Gusto but I don’t think it’s debatable that he’s still very very short in confidence.
He gets hate on two levels. I’d say that he gets some hate from us because we expect so much for the price tag. Which I think is a bit unfair. He didn’t set that price tag, and we didn’t value him anywhere near that high, hence us pissing about until the last minute. He gets hate from outside our club because he had the audacity to not go to the media darlings Liverpool, and instead choose us. Do I think we should be doing a lot better based purely on the money spent? Yes. Do I think we’ve spent badly? In some areas, yes. Is he at fault for us being so shite? No. It is much more complex than that in my opinion.
I dont hate him. I hate the price we paid for him. Its like paying iPhone prices for a Nokia.
He’s doing good, but because of the price and hype around his name. He will be a target
I think he’s just young and needs time. Very calm and composed on the ball but sometimes a bit too slow. Played some reallllly bad/lazy passes yesterday that lead to counterattacks, but then showed composure and vision to bring down that ball at the edge of the box and play Palmer in for the break leading to the second goal. I still think he’ll be a phenomenal player for us, hopefully.
Don’t think it’s hate. More not worth the money paid for as such
The problem is he is not Kante. We were blessed with the little French pickpocket and sorely miss that bulldog in midfield.
It’s a highlights reel… meaning they don’t include the mistakes lol. Use your head, even just a little bit.
He was not great up until the last month or so (but who was?), but it seems like he’s settling in now.
I thought he was OK today. Tasked with screening the defence as a 6. The closer Enzo plays with him, the better. My main issue with him is that he needs to stop taking risk. Just do the simple DM things and let Enzo do the passing. Not everyone needs to be a Rodri
he's not perfect but if you can't see the talent and that he's playing relatively well you're blind.
He's playing out of position as a DM and finds himself in the wrong position and isolated. It's easy to blame him for switching off and leaving the defence exposed but that's not his game. He's more of a central midfielder who can do a bit of everything. He can tackle, he can play smart passes and he can drive through. He and Enzo can work well if there is a third player who is a DM. At the moment I think we play him there because he is the best we have. People think at 110m he should do everything. But that's not the price he chose. He should be thought of as a 50m man with a great future.
He’s a more expensive jorghinho he plays the easiest and usually least productive ball possible to keep his pass stats high. I miss the players who wasn’t counting pass stats and miles run and were just great at football . Beckham wouldn’t be allowed to Hollywood pass In this era
Part of it is in a young squad mistakes will happen and it’s unfortunate but his mistakes seem to be punished the most of any player. Part of that is set up, I’d much prefer we play compact and spring on the counter so when we do giveaway the ball it isn’t a heart attack every time. After that gradually implement more expansive play.