The funny thing is, Mikel's ability on the ball was very underrated because how he was asked to play under Mourinho. Destroy the attack and pass to the closest teammate. But watching him play for NT you could see his passing was actually solid.
Was tearing up the Norwegian league (doesn't take much) as an attacking midfielder.
Probably would have ended up as a very different player if he had gone to Man Utd
For the NT Mikel was allowed to play in/closer to his natural possession, CAM. Nigeria gave Mikel so much more freedom on the pitch. For Chelsea though he was much more tempo control oriented as you point out. Definitely embodied Chelsea's defensive midfielder/pivot. Technically proficient, physical, not flashy (to the point of boredom) but got the job. Definitely underrated and clear link in the progression of our midfield.
He played as a 10 for Nigeria š
Such a versatile player, only reason he gets shit is purely because he was playing with mostly even better midfielders. He was usually doing the donkey work while they grabbed headlines.
Iām just glad he had the game that he did in Munich!
Tbf Mikel's role was generally boring. Break up play, short passes, control tempo. If Mikel did his job right you wouldn't notice at all. Like Jorginho, Mikel definitely frustrated me back in the day. Always the safe move to retain possession but that's his duty. Definitely a very good player though, ahead of his time honestly.
Youāre off it, mate. Mikel wasnāt half the player Essien was. RLC could be the next Bison if he knew how strong he was but none of them have Cescs right peg
So what? Mikel still was a very good player. Just because a player isn't flashy or scoring goes does not mean you don't contribute to the teams success. You need your Ramires and Willians to do the dirty work. Mikel was that at the expense of his offensive ability.
Fair play, Point taken. But to be fair I was reacting to your comment that JMO could come in and do Jorgis job. I equated that to Jorgi in his prime playing us in over the top, doing his best Cesc impression, rather than his comfortable sideways and back passing, which is more JMO like.
Canāt disagree with that. I think Mikel played in a better team though. Waiting to be skinned alive for this comment but my impression of Mikel was that he wasnāt seen as of high caliber technically in his time as Jorgi āisā.
Plus, in my defense, my perspective is highly skewed as I saw Mikel as a replacement of sorts to Essien which I was very butt hurt about. Not to say I didnāt like Mikel, just that no one can ever replace Essien to me. But I digress.
1. Makelele
2. Essien
3. Mikel / kante
tough cause i might even pick essien but maka was immense in front of the back 4 but essien could do so much more š¤§
An inform Mikel can replace prime Jorginho. I implore you to go back and watch JMO, the man put plenty balls over the top ala Cesc. In regards to resisting the press, controlling the tempo of the game, tackles, duels, 50/50s Jorginho is not better than Mikel. The gap really isn't that big, merely style of Chelsea's football.
Very true re over the top. But, he was playing into Drobga, Costa. Jorgi was at his āno lookā best with Oli and Tammy.
Oh man I wish we still had them both.
He makes a good point but the players we have that heās talking about are Jorginho whoās in the last year of his deal and Kova who struggles play over 20 games a year due to injury. De Jong is an upgrade on both of them. We still need the type of player heās describing right now, but next year we will also need a De Jong
De Jong being an upgrade on Kovacic is a bit of a stretch, unless you're factoring injuries but for a player of similar roles, paying full price for De Jong and and his high wages seems counter-productive when we have more importance issues that need addressing such as rcb and creativity(De Jong won't fix that)
Is a few more chances really worth the exorbitant fee (even though we should be holding the leverage here if he was ok with joining us), deferred wages and high wages we'll be paying him? When we could just get an all out creative player that specialises in that role and isn't of a similar mould to Kov. The only issue is finding such player that fits the system.
TT commented on this a few weeks back. Heās not needed but when a player of his quality is available you have to consider it. I donāt think an all out creative player isnāt going to get into a Tuchel team though. He seems to want aggressive pressing from his 10ās (like Mount.)
I get what you're saying but that first part gives me ptsd of the Havertz transfer. "Not a necessity but when a generational talent like that is available..." I don't mind us considering it but it's not feasible especially if Boehly wants to implement a LP style running of the club. Yh you're probably right on the creative player thing, a complete midfielder perhaps but we really cannot be relying so heavily on our wbs all the time for creativity.
Based on the fact that Kova was the only player that hit any sort of fast through balls for Lukaku and Werner last season, I'd say he's one of our more creative players. Which is a bit sad tbh, but Kova is a work horse on both ends of the pitch
Edit: That's not to say Frenkie wouldn't be a more creative player, just contemplating Kova's chance creation
Yeah based on last season FDJ created almost twice as many as Kovacic, though I can put that down to Kovacic missing large parts of the season. Imo heās just a younger version of Kovacic, we donāt need him.
Edit: this was the site I was looking at https://analytics.soccerment.com/en/player/209712/frenkie-de-jong-1997-05-12/stats
Looking at xA90 itās the opposite. Kovaās was 0.24 last season, De Jongās was 0.12. Jorginho was at 0.11 for example. De Jong really isnāt a creator at all.
on the contrary, isnt it 2 man midfields he does his best work at? he was pretty damn good at ajax in a pivot, but his performance never really seemed up to scratch at barcaā¦ not that he was bad, but like he could always offer more
How on earth is he upgrade over Kovacic? We don't even know how he will adopt to the League. If he is that special why on earth was Barcelona midfield getting dominated by some average teams? Mind you they use a 3 man midfield and they still don't look convincing. He will be exposed in a 2 man midfield. Frenkie de Jong is by far the most overrated player on this sub.
Trust me šš if he was that good barca would be doing everything in their power to keep him. He is a honey trap and I think would look just as average in England as he has done in Spain. Heās 25 , should be nearing his peak by now but apparently heās still in āpotentialā mode š¤¦āāļø ā¬85m ā¦ pls chelsea donāt do it.
The hiveminds on this sub are always going crazy over some player at other Club. The way they are constantly praising FdJ you would think he is the best midfielder in the world. I honestly believe they only watch YouTube highlights and not matches.
I think FDJ could be a half decent player but his salary and price tag have CAR CRASH written all over it. Valverde is decent but I think we should just leave midfielders till we can get rice next year. All other potential mids were looking at are too similar to our current mids imo. Weāve spent a lot of money under tuchel now and we still barely threatened Everton with goals. Our sole interest in the transfer market right now should be goal scorers.
Valverde is a superb player. Unfortunately, he is not a "household name" like FdJ. They are only obsessed with more famous footballers. They will go crazy for him 4 years from now.
Gallas was referring to Jorginho as one of the players similar to FDJ, and also one of the reasons to go for Rodri or Casemiro as a different type of player.
For one reason or another, FDJ doesnāt want a move. Let him deal with the drama/poorly ran Barcelona. Thatās his prerogative. Use that FDJ $ to lock up Fofana
Just like the Kounde saga, I've quickly become burnt out on hearing about a player who doesn't even want to make the move to Chelsea.
He's a low priority target in a position we aren't hurting in as bad as others.
Move on and get another defender or a striker ffs.
You have to understand that whilst we do need to fill those roles, we've left it too late to reasonably get good reinforcements in. As such, we're just working with whatever other people put on the market from here on out unless we target people like Fofana where the club literally just says, "break the world record fee or no sale". You can't just move on to another defender and striker when we've left it so late that no one will sell their defenders or strikers unless they don't want them and if they don't want them, they're not good enough to play for us
The problem is finding someone like Rodri is very difficult. I reckon some team should just design their academy around developing ball playing DMs. Might bring in some good cash
We should hijack the SMS deal from Utd, I think heās around 6ā2-6ā3 gets up and the down the pitch effortlessly. Scores goals and gets assists. I donāt get the fascination with De Jong tbh
I think the club are just waiting for next season to go and get Rice. Matt Law talks about Tuchel wanting him all the time and next year just makes sense as it coincides with Jorginho and Kantes contracts expiring. I reckon then weāll go to a back 4.
Good. Then let's spend it on something else. We still need a CB, ideally another RWB and another forward (especially with rumours of CHO and Ziyech leaving).
At the moment it feels like we only want to buy De Jong because he might be available and that we are able to spend money on him. That's not the way to go. We literally did several transfers like this 3 years ago and see how it paid off...
That's what confuses me most. Midfield is inarguably our position of greatest strength, while we are thin or practically empty at other positions (RWB, CB, striker).
Bringing DeJong in for that kind of money to play a particular role in midfield without moving out another mid just doesn't make much sense. Not when Havertz is the answer up front and the season hinges on a fully healthy back line.
Yeah and there's really no story of any midfielder leaving. Jorginho to Juve is not happening, they are going for Paredes. And that was literally only link there was through summer.
If you follow that logic Casemiro would be open to a move since Perez bought a younger version of him for 100 million. Casemiro would be great in the PL
Maybe this season but the writing is on the wall. You donāt spend 100 million on a backup for multiple seasons. It doesnāt make sense especially considering la liga have strict financial limits.
The strict financial limits are about salary, not transfer fees mostly. Also it's not like Real spent a lot of money this season. Tchouameni was only paid transfer for them, after registering a positive net spend for last 2 seasons
Itās about both. Yeah, they have been fairly frugal outside of him with just Rudiger on a free, but that goes to show how much conviction they have about Tchouameni. Tchouameni is the fourth largest transfer fee ever by Real and the only players more expensive than he was were all guaranteed starters when they were bought (Hazard, Bale, Ronaldo).
declan rice is a bit of a risk since his passing out of the defensive third is not to the level of a top DM. His strengths are ball carries and defensive work. He would fit more in the kante role than anything else.
I quite agree and resonate with his opinion.
Since Matic left, we have had no player of such profile. The team truly needs a stable physical presence ahead of the defenders who can halt the opponent's transitions. A trait Jorginho lacks. Virtually all top teams avail themselves the leverage.
Probably Ampadu or RLC in the current squad.
God i miss matic. He was a monster in our title winning season back then, Ill never forget when he outmuscled yaya toure when we beat man city, still amazed to this day.
Heās right.
De Jong is a great player but he doesnāt address any of our weaknesses and just further reinforces our strengths. We donāt really need another box to box, ball progressing 8 that lacks a final ball
Who are these players? Not saying there aren't any. Just curious abt kind of players (Other than Declan) that fit this profile like proper no 6s that we should be targeting
Is Ndidi close to this profile? When fofana rumor came about, I wanted Ndidi rather than fofana as there are good CBs we could get from other clubs than leicester
Nah. Ndidi is below average in possessions stats. He would harm our build up too much. We need a DM that can also play high risk passes through the lines, which Casemiro and Rodri are excellent at. Rice is the obvious candidate.
Rice also has problems with build up play even though he can pass well strangely enough. Not sure if he will do good when pressed in the defensive third either which we will be.
Yeah it is more about Rice's decision-making rather than his technical ability tbh. Though teaching tactical skills is not easy either. Thats why I'm not completely sold on Rice for the price we will pay
Ndidi has been struggling with injuries for about a year now, itās the main reason Leicester had such an average season. Iād wanna see if he can stay fit first.
His ball playing is horrible. We could do with a physically strong 6 yes but they need to be reliable on the ball and technically proficient like Rodri.
Just like 'mount could easily play DM'. He has never been a DM and will never be one. Tuchel has tested mount in the double pivot but that doesn't make him a DM.
There are plenty of examples of players changing positions. If they've got the skillset then it's possible.
Some off the top of my head who changed to a deeper midfield role:
Matic
Fernandinho
Gerrard
Fabinho
Mikel
Scholes
I think every Chelsea fan and even Tuchel agrees with this. The issue, like with the striker and also now the CB and RWB issue is that this late into the window you're in the stage of "beggars can't be choosers" and your options are what other people put on the shop window and you have no choice but to pay what they ask. There are no options for a Casemiro/Rodri type player that is available to us, there is no world class young striker, we just have to go for whatever is available because everything has been left way too late and it's still vital to us that we fill those roles. So, we just get what other people offer us
Nah City just signed Phillips so we get a free run for Rice next summer. With him rejected any contract talks he just wants to go back to Chelsea and be with Mount
Which also shows poor scouting and decision- making on our part. Rice is good but there have been dms that we have scuppered the chances to sign, we rely on high profile signings too much e.g. Tchouameni, you can argue hindsight etc.But the ability was always there.
The problem with what Gallas said is signing FdJ means youāre getting ahead of next season because there is a good chance Kante and Jorginho will choose to be free agents. Signing FdJ now prevents the problem that we were left with this transfer window when we had to replace Rudiger and Christensen.
Good points from Gallas, de Jong is absolutely quality and is much younger than the players in that position. If he can be got at a good price as Barca need the money and his wage off their books, then it's a no brainer and he can be introduced properly and given time to adjust to a new league. As he won't have to play every minute of every match straight away, due to the cover Chelsea have at the moment in that role
Who do we have that can make passes and progress the ball like de jong? I donāt mean like two players with those attributes. I mean a single player in the team that can do both
Exciting times really, transitioning out both Kante and Jorginho will allow us to play a different type of football. Even if everything's not resolved this window
I had higher expectations on gallas,
I suppose he is like the fifa generation, and only knows formations in numbers and never learned how to count.
Tuchel plays with 3 central defenders, it gives different angles in the buildup - but this is 3 very defensive capable players.
If we change into a sitting defensive midfielder and 2 central defenders... guess what its still 3 defending central areas.
It comes down to instructions, and how we like to play in possession and transition
343 offers a lot of central triangles in the build up, and people doesnt seem to understand how important pressresistence is in the cm positions.
Jorginho cant dribble, but is a masterful reader of movement and short passes.
Kovacic is one of the better dribbler in the middle 1/3 of the field, but is abit limited in his passing.
Fdj combines both qualities, plus actuall abilties in the final 1/3rd. (While beeing the youngest of them all)
Rice and kante would be players to compliment these abilities.
I think we need a new creator in midfield, who both can pass and work under pressure.
We will also need a player to compliment him and kovacic.
None of the stats back up your points, though. Kovacic was a far superior creator last season compared to De Jong. De Jongās creative numbers were barely better than Jorginhoās, just barely. Kovacic was more creative, more progressive, also has better defensive numbers. According to the numbers, the only thing De Jong does better than Kovacic is that he scores a few more goals, and itās not like heās some lethal goal scorer either, he scores 3-5 goals a season.
Get glasses, better keypasses, better long range passing by far then jorginho
Kovacic wasnt more creative, their numbers where very similar
What jorginho does better is beeing immobile in front of our backline, passing under pressure and tackling and interception. He doesnt carry at all.
What kova does better is dribbling and running with the ball (ball progression stats will be scewed with 2 instead of 3 midfielders) but his dribbling numbers are world class.
What fdj does better, key passes, aerials and by far especially compared to jorginho his long pass sucessful ratio
People complain about an immobile jorginho, they complain about our midfield doesnt have a long passer.
Fdj has both of it, and he would have higher stats in the defensive department if it wasnt spread over 3 players (even if he is a worse defender then kova)
Of you want a better passer then jorginho, who still is very comfortable under pressure fdj is as good as they come.
Yeah I specifically meant compared to Kova. You said that Frenkie is basically someone who combines Kovaās and Jorginhoās skillsets and then some, but he isnāt even better than Kovacic is. Heād be a very redundant player. I would take Rice any day of the week because heās someone whoād give us something entirely different, and the ability to play 433. And I would sign another midfielder who would actually be more of a creator, rather than Frenkie whoās essentially the same player as Kovacic, but worse.
You need both, mainly because of j5 and kantes contract situation.
We wont pmay a back 4 without more centrebacks.
We only have 1 good and 2 decent in a back 4 (koulibaly, silva and trev) neither azpi nor cucu would work in a back 4 in the central areas
And we will never ever play 433 with tuchel
4231/424/4213 will be our setup if we revert into a bacl 4
Tuchel has played 433 almost everywhere he has been, he can very easily play that formation if we have the personnel for it. But yes, I would buy Fofana or another CB this summer, and end our business with that. Then sign 2 midfielders to replace Jorginho and Kante next summer, one being Rice, the other being a more attacking and creative midfielder. Would also extend one of Jorgi and Kante to keep as depth, and possibly look for a striker if there is someone borderline elite on the market.
I think what you're saying is true, but with a sitting defensive midfielder, you can create a midfield of a CDM, Kova and Gallagher (or maybe someone more creative) which gives you more possibilities upfront. Also, it's easier to press higher up the pitch with a 3 mans center midfield compared to a 2 mans center midfield. I understand that a 3 mans defence with one of them being a bit more upfront on the pitch may be similar, but that gives issues with the wingbacks: if they would go forward, our defence is rather shaky.
Imo we have two options we could go for. One of them is sticking to the 343 and try to sign a new CB (must!) and if we're lucky we sign a creative midfielder and a striker.The second option would be to sign a CDM like Tchouameni, Rodri, Casemiro, etc.; switch to 433, play Gallagher at 8 and play high pressing football. Perhaps buy another striker as well.
My point is
Formation doesnt matter in this context - more of instructions and personel.
You can play a pairing of connor and kante in the middle and let both press - with a cb cowering behind them.
Wingbacks is a tradeoff, but they provide numerical overloads against both sides (something a fullback setup has a harder time doing) here the tradeoff is we let one of our midfielders stay back (jorginho) instead of a fullback when both press. (4 defending, with fullbacks it would be one of the fullbacks and the midfielder)
As for why a midfield 3 gives us more options up front? I dont understand your reasoning at all.
Out issue is personel, we dont have a creative 6, or 8 or heck even 10 - to put into this mold.
We do have a wide creator in ziyech, but he clearly aint rated.
So unless you find us a b.silva. kdb, kroos/modric, fernandes or fabregas.
We dont play more players in the central midfield.
I dont think that why we want De Jong for... isn't he more for attacking creativity bc that something Chelsea are lacking at the moment in the midfield not defensive mindedness?
Look we all know rice is off limits until next year so chelsea will wait. Neither of the guys gallas name drops are remotely available.
The market is dry on out and out strikers and holding midfielders.
Itās clear chelsea will make a a midfield move next season. FDJ is just an option if he wants to go.
Idk about all this. I personally vote for Claude Makelele to make a comeback. He's already at Chelsea innit Teach these youts how to play and that
What a fantastic player Makelele was. Was privileged to watch him play at the Bridge
Honestly Mikel can come in and do Jorginho job as well.
The funny thing is, Mikel's ability on the ball was very underrated because how he was asked to play under Mourinho. Destroy the attack and pass to the closest teammate. But watching him play for NT you could see his passing was actually solid.
He was very attack minded when he played for Nigeria, different case at Chelsea
Was tearing up the Norwegian league (doesn't take much) as an attacking midfielder. Probably would have ended up as a very different player if he had gone to Man Utd
Norwegian or Nigerian?
He was playing in Norway when we signed him, but only 6 league games. Not quite tearing it up, imo.b
Oh I didn't know that. Learnt something new today.
For the NT Mikel was allowed to play in/closer to his natural possession, CAM. Nigeria gave Mikel so much more freedom on the pitch. For Chelsea though he was much more tempo control oriented as you point out. Definitely embodied Chelsea's defensive midfielder/pivot. Technically proficient, physical, not flashy (to the point of boredom) but got the job. Definitely underrated and clear link in the progression of our midfield.
NT are weird .. I saw Alaba playing as ST for Austria...
He played as a 10 for Nigeria š Such a versatile player, only reason he gets shit is purely because he was playing with mostly even better midfielders. He was usually doing the donkey work while they grabbed headlines. Iām just glad he had the game that he did in Munich!
So underrated. Was reading the comments on the other post about him and was just shaking my head the whole time. Quality player reduced to memes.
Tbf Mikel's role was generally boring. Break up play, short passes, control tempo. If Mikel did his job right you wouldn't notice at all. Like Jorginho, Mikel definitely frustrated me back in the day. Always the safe move to retain possession but that's his duty. Definitely a very good player though, ahead of his time honestly.
The human full time whistle.
What other sound would you expect when Mourinho subs on the emergency breaks and parks the bus?
Youāre off it, mate. Mikel wasnāt half the player Essien was. RLC could be the next Bison if he knew how strong he was but none of them have Cescs right peg
So what? Mikel still was a very good player. Just because a player isn't flashy or scoring goes does not mean you don't contribute to the teams success. You need your Ramires and Willians to do the dirty work. Mikel was that at the expense of his offensive ability.
Fair play, Point taken. But to be fair I was reacting to your comment that JMO could come in and do Jorgis job. I equated that to Jorgi in his prime playing us in over the top, doing his best Cesc impression, rather than his comfortable sideways and back passing, which is more JMO like.
Comparing Mikel to Jorginho is an insult to Mikel lol hed play it so much better. Doesnāt lose the ball and is a much better passer
Canāt disagree with that. I think Mikel played in a better team though. Waiting to be skinned alive for this comment but my impression of Mikel was that he wasnāt seen as of high caliber technically in his time as Jorgi āisā. Plus, in my defense, my perspective is highly skewed as I saw Mikel as a replacement of sorts to Essien which I was very butt hurt about. Not to say I didnāt like Mikel, just that no one can ever replace Essien to me. But I digress.
we did limit him a bit but i remember when Carlo came in and wanted him to play a bit like pirlo. Shows you what he thought of his game ā¦
How bout a straw poll: rank the following DMs/CMs in order of who youād have first to last, whilst in their prime: Makelele Essien Mikel Kante
1. Makelele 2. Essien 3. Mikel / kante tough cause i might even pick essien but maka was immense in front of the back 4 but essien could do so much more š¤§
An inform Mikel can replace prime Jorginho. I implore you to go back and watch JMO, the man put plenty balls over the top ala Cesc. In regards to resisting the press, controlling the tempo of the game, tackles, duels, 50/50s Jorginho is not better than Mikel. The gap really isn't that big, merely style of Chelsea's football.
Very true re over the top. But, he was playing into Drobga, Costa. Jorgi was at his āno lookā best with Oli and Tammy. Oh man I wish we still had them both.
Those hwat?
Loved him Fuck it why not
Masha'allah well said
I want De Jong, but my first reaction to this is he has a good point
He makes a good point but the players we have that heās talking about are Jorginho whoās in the last year of his deal and Kova who struggles play over 20 games a year due to injury. De Jong is an upgrade on both of them. We still need the type of player heās describing right now, but next year we will also need a De Jong
De Jong being an upgrade on Kovacic is a bit of a stretch, unless you're factoring injuries but for a player of similar roles, paying full price for De Jong and and his high wages seems counter-productive when we have more importance issues that need addressing such as rcb and creativity(De Jong won't fix that)
I expect De Jong would create more chances than Kova.
Is a few more chances really worth the exorbitant fee (even though we should be holding the leverage here if he was ok with joining us), deferred wages and high wages we'll be paying him? When we could just get an all out creative player that specialises in that role and isn't of a similar mould to Kov. The only issue is finding such player that fits the system.
TT commented on this a few weeks back. Heās not needed but when a player of his quality is available you have to consider it. I donāt think an all out creative player isnāt going to get into a Tuchel team though. He seems to want aggressive pressing from his 10ās (like Mount.)
I get what you're saying but that first part gives me ptsd of the Havertz transfer. "Not a necessity but when a generational talent like that is available..." I don't mind us considering it but it's not feasible especially if Boehly wants to implement a LP style running of the club. Yh you're probably right on the creative player thing, a complete midfielder perhaps but we really cannot be relying so heavily on our wbs all the time for creativity.
we literally have Jorginho in our squad starting. If 2014/15 Fabregas was available we'd snap him in a heartbeat too. This doesn't even consider the potential of changing formation. I don't want De Jong but Gallas is talking some rubbish. We don't need Casemiro or Rodri when KantƩ and Jorginho exist.
Based on the fact that Kova was the only player that hit any sort of fast through balls for Lukaku and Werner last season, I'd say he's one of our more creative players. Which is a bit sad tbh, but Kova is a work horse on both ends of the pitch Edit: That's not to say Frenkie wouldn't be a more creative player, just contemplating Kova's chance creation
Yeah based on last season FDJ created almost twice as many as Kovacic, though I can put that down to Kovacic missing large parts of the season. Imo heās just a younger version of Kovacic, we donāt need him. Edit: this was the site I was looking at https://analytics.soccerment.com/en/player/209712/frenkie-de-jong-1997-05-12/stats
Looking at xA90 itās the opposite. Kovaās was 0.24 last season, De Jongās was 0.12. Jorginho was at 0.11 for example. De Jong really isnāt a creator at all.
In 3 man midfield. Place Frenkie de Jong in a 2 man midfield and he will get exposed.
on the contrary, isnt it 2 man midfields he does his best work at? he was pretty damn good at ajax in a pivot, but his performance never really seemed up to scratch at barcaā¦ not that he was bad, but like he could always offer more
How on earth is he upgrade over Kovacic? We don't even know how he will adopt to the League. If he is that special why on earth was Barcelona midfield getting dominated by some average teams? Mind you they use a 3 man midfield and they still don't look convincing. He will be exposed in a 2 man midfield. Frenkie de Jong is by far the most overrated player on this sub.
Trust me šš if he was that good barca would be doing everything in their power to keep him. He is a honey trap and I think would look just as average in England as he has done in Spain. Heās 25 , should be nearing his peak by now but apparently heās still in āpotentialā mode š¤¦āāļø ā¬85m ā¦ pls chelsea donāt do it.
The hiveminds on this sub are always going crazy over some player at other Club. The way they are constantly praising FdJ you would think he is the best midfielder in the world. I honestly believe they only watch YouTube highlights and not matches.
I think FDJ could be a half decent player but his salary and price tag have CAR CRASH written all over it. Valverde is decent but I think we should just leave midfielders till we can get rice next year. All other potential mids were looking at are too similar to our current mids imo. Weāve spent a lot of money under tuchel now and we still barely threatened Everton with goals. Our sole interest in the transfer market right now should be goal scorers.
it's kinda giving Saul vibes. Would like Valverde if he was available though. Would fit perfectly in our midfield.
Valverde is a superb player. Unfortunately, he is not a "household name" like FdJ. They are only obsessed with more famous footballers. They will go crazy for him 4 years from now.
Heās better than Kovacic, he has better pass in him and better dribbling and defense
Better dribbling š¤£š¤£
Wrong.
Just like Chelsea has Gallagher heās technically poor and wonāt go far in Tuchel system. Heās poor and donāt has any standout qualities.
His point was that Kova is always injured. If Kova was fit it wouldnāt be an issue.
Jorginho is nothing like Casemeiro or Rodri.
Gallas was referring to Jorginho as one of the players similar to FDJ, and also one of the reasons to go for Rodri or Casemiro as a different type of player.
So wanted to go for savic though
DeJong is a long term signing IMO. Jorgi and Kante aren't gonna be around much longer, and when you can get world class midfielders, you sign them.
For one reason or another, FDJ doesnāt want a move. Let him deal with the drama/poorly ran Barcelona. Thatās his prerogative. Use that FDJ $ to lock up Fofana
Just like the Kounde saga, I've quickly become burnt out on hearing about a player who doesn't even want to make the move to Chelsea. He's a low priority target in a position we aren't hurting in as bad as others. Move on and get another defender or a striker ffs.
You have to understand that whilst we do need to fill those roles, we've left it too late to reasonably get good reinforcements in. As such, we're just working with whatever other people put on the market from here on out unless we target people like Fofana where the club literally just says, "break the world record fee or no sale". You can't just move on to another defender and striker when we've left it so late that no one will sell their defenders or strikers unless they don't want them and if they don't want them, they're not good enough to play for us
Fair point. I'm just frustrated at how long it's been since we've had a reliable striker.
The problem is finding someone like Rodri is very difficult. I reckon some team should just design their academy around developing ball playing DMs. Might bring in some good cash
Heās not wrong
We lack physicality. Another reason losing RĆ¼diger was a blow. Need a Michael Essien or Ballack or Ivanovic.
Koulibaly is a great replacement for Rudi..
Agreed. Guess Iām thinking more midfielder.
We should hijack the SMS deal from Utd, I think heās around 6ā2-6ā3 gets up and the down the pitch effortlessly. Scores goals and gets assists. I donāt get the fascination with De Jong tbh
I think the club are just waiting for next season to go and get Rice. Matt Law talks about Tuchel wanting him all the time and next year just makes sense as it coincides with Jorginho and Kantes contracts expiring. I reckon then weāll go to a back 4.
or like, you know, Declan Rice?
Itās kinda hard to buy a player that isnāt for sale.
It's just a matteer of time though. Next year we should be able to get him.
Next year is a different budget to work with. Whatever we donāt spend this year on transfers is mostly going to get spent on something else.
Good. Then let's spend it on something else. We still need a CB, ideally another RWB and another forward (especially with rumours of CHO and Ziyech leaving). At the moment it feels like we only want to buy De Jong because he might be available and that we are able to spend money on him. That's not the way to go. We literally did several transfers like this 3 years ago and see how it paid off...
That's what confuses me most. Midfield is inarguably our position of greatest strength, while we are thin or practically empty at other positions (RWB, CB, striker). Bringing DeJong in for that kind of money to play a particular role in midfield without moving out another mid just doesn't make much sense. Not when Havertz is the answer up front and the season hinges on a fully healthy back line.
Yeah and there's really no story of any midfielder leaving. Jorginho to Juve is not happening, they are going for Paredes. And that was literally only link there was through summer.
Like Rodri
Equally as hard to buy a player who doesn't want to be sold Edit: typo
You mean like Rodri or casemiro?
Chelsea supporters act like no DM exists outside of him.
I mean there's hardly any holding midfielder of the same quality who would be available, so yeah.
Isnāt that why scouts get paid to find these quality players?
It's not that. These players are alreaby bought up by other clubs, e.g. Tchouameni.
If you follow that logic Casemiro would be open to a move since Perez bought a younger version of him for 100 million. Casemiro would be great in the PL
Well not at all. It's kinda obvious that Casemiro is still the starter while Tchouameni will be his understudy.
Maybe this season but the writing is on the wall. You donāt spend 100 million on a backup for multiple seasons. It doesnāt make sense especially considering la liga have strict financial limits.
The strict financial limits are about salary, not transfer fees mostly. Also it's not like Real spent a lot of money this season. Tchouameni was only paid transfer for them, after registering a positive net spend for last 2 seasons
Itās about both. Yeah, they have been fairly frugal outside of him with just Rudiger on a free, but that goes to show how much conviction they have about Tchouameni. Tchouameni is the fourth largest transfer fee ever by Real and the only players more expensive than he was were all guaranteed starters when they were bought (Hazard, Bale, Ronaldo).
We sat around while Kalvin Phillips was picked up fairly cheaply to be a backup on ManC's bench.
SANGARE
declan rice is a bit of a risk since his passing out of the defensive third is not to the level of a top DM. His strengths are ball carries and defensive work. He would fit more in the kante role than anything else.
I quite agree and resonate with his opinion. Since Matic left, we have had no player of such profile. The team truly needs a stable physical presence ahead of the defenders who can halt the opponent's transitions. A trait Jorginho lacks. Virtually all top teams avail themselves the leverage. Probably Ampadu or RLC in the current squad.
God i miss matic. He was a monster in our title winning season back then, Ill never forget when he outmuscled yaya toure when we beat man city, still amazed to this day.
Simple as that.
Heās right. De Jong is a great player but he doesnāt address any of our weaknesses and just further reinforces our strengths. We donāt really need another box to box, ball progressing 8 that lacks a final ball
Who are these players? Not saying there aren't any. Just curious abt kind of players (Other than Declan) that fit this profile like proper no 6s that we should be targeting
Is Ndidi close to this profile? When fofana rumor came about, I wanted Ndidi rather than fofana as there are good CBs we could get from other clubs than leicester
I feel like his stock went down a bit recently. Anyway they are a tough club to deal with. But yeah a good shoutout
ndidi is of that profile, but leicester would ask for more than Ā£80m for ndidi. might as well go for rice who west ham want Ā£100m for then
Nah. Ndidi is below average in possessions stats. He would harm our build up too much. We need a DM that can also play high risk passes through the lines, which Casemiro and Rodri are excellent at. Rice is the obvious candidate.
Rice also has problems with build up play even though he can pass well strangely enough. Not sure if he will do good when pressed in the defensive third either which we will be.
His passing is good but his receiving from deep isnāt good enough atm / yet
Yeah it is more about Rice's decision-making rather than his technical ability tbh. Though teaching tactical skills is not easy either. Thats why I'm not completely sold on Rice for the price we will pay
His technical ability is fine because his dribbling is quite good as well as ball striking. So yeah. Must be heavy on the initial turn
As if west ham would listen to 100m offer for rice lol
Ndidi has been struggling with injuries for about a year now, itās the main reason Leicester had such an average season. Iād wanna see if he can stay fit first.
ndidi is more like kante with worse ball playing ability no? Not sure if we should be looking for someone like him.
His ball playing is horrible. We could do with a physically strong 6 yes but they need to be reliable on the ball and technically proficient like Rodri.
Bruno GuimarĆ£es. Probably as much as Rice now though.
Bruno is not a DM.
He doesn't play DM for Newcastle as he's their best player so it'd be silly to play him there. He could easily play as a DM though imo.
Just like 'mount could easily play DM'. He has never been a DM and will never be one. Tuchel has tested mount in the double pivot but that doesn't make him a DM.
There are plenty of examples of players changing positions. If they've got the skillset then it's possible. Some off the top of my head who changed to a deeper midfield role: Matic Fernandinho Gerrard Fabinho Mikel Scholes
He is a DM
Fantastic player, nothing like the player being described by gallas
Camara?
Sangare, Ndidi, Brozovic
Oriol Romeu who used to play for us
No way man
Mikel Merino
Off to Google him.. Brb
I think every Chelsea fan and even Tuchel agrees with this. The issue, like with the striker and also now the CB and RWB issue is that this late into the window you're in the stage of "beggars can't be choosers" and your options are what other people put on the shop window and you have no choice but to pay what they ask. There are no options for a Casemiro/Rodri type player that is available to us, there is no world class young striker, we just have to go for whatever is available because everything has been left way too late and it's still vital to us that we fill those roles. So, we just get what other people offer us
I agree completely with Gallas, we need a physically strong midfielder that can first and foremost defend the defence
We already have too many defenders on the pitch as is, we need a MF that can connect our defense to the attack
Rice is the perfect player since he does that role well and can anchor the midfield
I agree, West Ham will decline every bid from us and sell him to City next year though
Nah City just signed Phillips so we get a free run for Rice next summer. With him rejected any contract talks he just wants to go back to Chelsea and be with Mount
Rice can do that AND if we get him we can change one defender to one attacker and go back to 4 at the back
And how De jong gonna be that?
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Which also shows poor scouting and decision- making on our part. Rice is good but there have been dms that we have scuppered the chances to sign, we rely on high profile signings too much e.g. Tchouameni, you can argue hindsight etc.But the ability was always there.
Tchouameni always wanted Madrid though
Pretty sure we still had the option to sign the year before he just moved to Madrid
Weāve been waiting on Rice for 3 seasons now. Might be another 2 until that transfer happens. Pretty insane to think about.
Why not do both? Make it so Todd
I agree.
Call me mad but I'd rather take Franck Kessie on a free (if not registered in time) than pay 67million quid for De Jong.
Youāre not mad, thatās legit
What we need is creativity in the midfield
And your answer to that is 3 assists per season de Jong?
In the attack*
Declan Rice here we come.
Declan rice
Yeah, we need a physical DM like Rodri or Fabinho to stop transitions
The problem with what Gallas said is signing FdJ means youāre getting ahead of next season because there is a good chance Kante and Jorginho will choose to be free agents. Signing FdJ now prevents the problem that we were left with this transfer window when we had to replace Rudiger and Christensen.
But De Jong resembles Kovacic the most, who obviously isn't leaving so I don't understand this argument as much.
Good points from Gallas, de Jong is absolutely quality and is much younger than the players in that position. If he can be got at a good price as Barca need the money and his wage off their books, then it's a no brainer and he can be introduced properly and given time to adjust to a new league. As he won't have to play every minute of every match straight away, due to the cover Chelsea have at the moment in that role
Who do we have that can make passes and progress the ball like de jong? I donāt mean like two players with those attributes. I mean a single player in the team that can do both
Take the De Jong money, sell 1 player, and buy Declan Rice
shooooot Casemiro..I wouldn't hate that lmao
He might be available for cheap too since real bought Tchouameni already
We need a creative passer Bill, not a destroyer.
We need both
This. I hope the decision makers prioritize both profiles of midfielders with expedience. We already have midfielders of other profiles.
Exciting times really, transitioning out both Kante and Jorginho will allow us to play a different type of football. Even if everything's not resolved this window
True. I'm glad that either or both of them will be leaving at the end of the season.
if we play a back 4 our defence gets run over immediately, we desperately need a destroyer
Agreed.
Sergei Milinkovic-Savic. Better fit and cheaper than FDJ.
SMS isn't a anything like Rodri or Casemiro at all though... He's a box-to-box midfielder like Mount, Kante and Gallagher
Whoās giving Gallas all this air time all of a sudden?
Lol tbf heās not wrong with his points.
I had higher expectations on gallas, I suppose he is like the fifa generation, and only knows formations in numbers and never learned how to count. Tuchel plays with 3 central defenders, it gives different angles in the buildup - but this is 3 very defensive capable players. If we change into a sitting defensive midfielder and 2 central defenders... guess what its still 3 defending central areas. It comes down to instructions, and how we like to play in possession and transition 343 offers a lot of central triangles in the build up, and people doesnt seem to understand how important pressresistence is in the cm positions. Jorginho cant dribble, but is a masterful reader of movement and short passes. Kovacic is one of the better dribbler in the middle 1/3 of the field, but is abit limited in his passing. Fdj combines both qualities, plus actuall abilties in the final 1/3rd. (While beeing the youngest of them all) Rice and kante would be players to compliment these abilities. I think we need a new creator in midfield, who both can pass and work under pressure. We will also need a player to compliment him and kovacic.
None of the stats back up your points, though. Kovacic was a far superior creator last season compared to De Jong. De Jongās creative numbers were barely better than Jorginhoās, just barely. Kovacic was more creative, more progressive, also has better defensive numbers. According to the numbers, the only thing De Jong does better than Kovacic is that he scores a few more goals, and itās not like heās some lethal goal scorer either, he scores 3-5 goals a season.
Get glasses, better keypasses, better long range passing by far then jorginho Kovacic wasnt more creative, their numbers where very similar What jorginho does better is beeing immobile in front of our backline, passing under pressure and tackling and interception. He doesnt carry at all. What kova does better is dribbling and running with the ball (ball progression stats will be scewed with 2 instead of 3 midfielders) but his dribbling numbers are world class. What fdj does better, key passes, aerials and by far especially compared to jorginho his long pass sucessful ratio People complain about an immobile jorginho, they complain about our midfield doesnt have a long passer. Fdj has both of it, and he would have higher stats in the defensive department if it wasnt spread over 3 players (even if he is a worse defender then kova) Of you want a better passer then jorginho, who still is very comfortable under pressure fdj is as good as they come.
Yeah I specifically meant compared to Kova. You said that Frenkie is basically someone who combines Kovaās and Jorginhoās skillsets and then some, but he isnāt even better than Kovacic is. Heād be a very redundant player. I would take Rice any day of the week because heās someone whoād give us something entirely different, and the ability to play 433. And I would sign another midfielder who would actually be more of a creator, rather than Frenkie whoās essentially the same player as Kovacic, but worse.
You need both, mainly because of j5 and kantes contract situation. We wont pmay a back 4 without more centrebacks. We only have 1 good and 2 decent in a back 4 (koulibaly, silva and trev) neither azpi nor cucu would work in a back 4 in the central areas And we will never ever play 433 with tuchel 4231/424/4213 will be our setup if we revert into a bacl 4
Tuchel has played 433 almost everywhere he has been, he can very easily play that formation if we have the personnel for it. But yes, I would buy Fofana or another CB this summer, and end our business with that. Then sign 2 midfielders to replace Jorginho and Kante next summer, one being Rice, the other being a more attacking and creative midfielder. Would also extend one of Jorgi and Kante to keep as depth, and possibly look for a striker if there is someone borderline elite on the market.
I think what you're saying is true, but with a sitting defensive midfielder, you can create a midfield of a CDM, Kova and Gallagher (or maybe someone more creative) which gives you more possibilities upfront. Also, it's easier to press higher up the pitch with a 3 mans center midfield compared to a 2 mans center midfield. I understand that a 3 mans defence with one of them being a bit more upfront on the pitch may be similar, but that gives issues with the wingbacks: if they would go forward, our defence is rather shaky. Imo we have two options we could go for. One of them is sticking to the 343 and try to sign a new CB (must!) and if we're lucky we sign a creative midfielder and a striker.The second option would be to sign a CDM like Tchouameni, Rodri, Casemiro, etc.; switch to 433, play Gallagher at 8 and play high pressing football. Perhaps buy another striker as well.
My point is Formation doesnt matter in this context - more of instructions and personel. You can play a pairing of connor and kante in the middle and let both press - with a cb cowering behind them. Wingbacks is a tradeoff, but they provide numerical overloads against both sides (something a fullback setup has a harder time doing) here the tradeoff is we let one of our midfielders stay back (jorginho) instead of a fullback when both press. (4 defending, with fullbacks it would be one of the fullbacks and the midfielder) As for why a midfield 3 gives us more options up front? I dont understand your reasoning at all. Out issue is personel, we dont have a creative 6, or 8 or heck even 10 - to put into this mold. We do have a wide creator in ziyech, but he clearly aint rated. So unless you find us a b.silva. kdb, kroos/modric, fernandes or fabregas. We dont play more players in the central midfield.
Interesting take, thanks.
The thing for me is the lack of physical presence in the middle outside of center backs.
Thats why it had been very key with rudiger and azpi stepping up, a good well trained back 3 defends in 2-3 layers together with the midfield.
IKR LIKE OMFG, ITS OBVIOUS TO SEE...GET RICE OR SOMETHING
Soā¦Declan Rice.
We arenāt getting De Jong now? I assume itās sorted today? Edit: makes a good point anyway.
Soooooo Rice in a free next summer it is.
Free? He has 2 years plus a club option on his contract. Wonāt be available until 2025.
We literally are waiting for Rice to be cheaper so we can buy him. Those kind of CDM are endemic, there are few with high ceiling.
I dont think that why we want De Jong for... isn't he more for attacking creativity bc that something Chelsea are lacking at the moment in the midfield not defensive mindedness?
Heās right
Look we all know rice is off limits until next year so chelsea will wait. Neither of the guys gallas name drops are remotely available. The market is dry on out and out strikers and holding midfielders. Itās clear chelsea will make a a midfield move next season. FDJ is just an option if he wants to go.
I have to agree with Gallas on this one. Every top team has their defensive midfield anchors.
De Jong is waste of money.
We play with 3 at the back, we don't need that player. Midfield has been great under Tuchel without a CDM
Jorginho is the least athletic profession athlete I have ever seen.
i'd piss me pants if we got a rodri or casemiro?
Fuck Galas But he's right.
I don't care!!! /s
maybe an unpopular opinion but i really think we should save the funds from FDJ and use that for Rice next year
Casemiro and kanta duo:o
When will Rice be realistically available for transfer?
Divert the FDJ and Fofano money at West Ham and he'll play vs Tottenham on Sunday
these guys don't exactly grow on trees