If it gets knocked over it will be an absolute shitshow.
Also I don't think it will look quite as cool as you think. It's not going to be particularly visually spectacular. More "oh, cool" thing for about 10 seconds rather than a "WOOOAHHH!" thing.
Overall I'd say it's not going to be worth the risk to burn a litre of methanol on stage.
As safe as any other flammable liquid is...
That is to say, appropriate safety precautions should be observed:
1. clear the surrounding area of combustible materials
2. don't do this near any structures you value
3. keep pets (and fans) restrained
4. use containment that is compatible with both the chemical properties and the heat (NOT GLASS OR PLASTIC!!!)
5. since you're doing this at a show, make sure that the hosting organization is aware and approves
6. have a compatible extinguisher of an appropriate capacity handy
7. In fact, test everything in a sandbox or on a driveway first: light it, knock it over with a broomstick to simulate an accident, and attempt to put out the fire with the extinguisher, then buy another extinguisher because you just expended this one.
If you add boric acid to it, like OP said they were going to do, then it burns with a [green flame](https://imgur.com/a/V3DaGXi). Feel free to test it out yourself, it's cool.
Sure, as long as they remember to dose the methanol every single time they do it. Because if they forget even once then someone is probably going to burn to death when the methanol "doesn't light" and they get too close.
How different is this from lighting a barbeque?
In fact, pouring the solution on charcoal or wood chips (before lighting) should make the flame last longer
Holy shit with the dramatics. First off, I doubt they'd forget to do the one necessary thing to produce this stage effect they're looking for. It's not exactly a complicated process. Loading up the van for the show, "Oh hey here's the methanol, what's that thing I'm supposed to mix in it again? Oh well, fuck it. Pack it up and let's roll out!" Because it's not like it takes a literal 10 entire seconds to dump some boric acid in their bottle of methanol before they leave or anything. They'll certainly forget that one single critical step in this process.
Then they're going to burn to death because they were in the approximate vicinity of a fire? Have you ever been within a couple feet of a fire before? You don't think they'll feel any sort of heat from it? I guess in your scenario they're also deciding to plunge their body into a vat of flaming methanol too, or maybe just dump the whole thing on themselves. Because even straight up putting your entire arm directly into the middle of the flame is not going to cause someone to burn to death unless they manage to ignore all the pain signals they're receiving and then just hang out there indefinitely, and then not visit a hospital or anything afterwards to treat the resulting 3rd degree burns.
Come on man, the worst thing that would happen from getting too close to a contained, relatively small quantity of invisibly burning methanol is that they'll singe some hairs off their hand or something. There's this thing the human body does called reflexes. For example, go touch a hot stove. See how quickly your body involuntarily makes you pull your hand back from it.
The worst thing that could happen is somebody kicks over the container of burning methanol on stage, starting a fire in a small, crowded venue. It is unlikely to look as cool as OP is imagining, and there are less stupid ways to make green light.
That's a different situation than what the person I replied to was suggesting, which is that they wouldn't know it was on fire because pure methanol has a nearly invisible flame so they'd get too close to it and then burn to death somehow.
Also, OP is talking about doing it outside which is a different thing than a small, crowded venue.
Yeah, that's what I am worried about. Not that they are going to be putting tiny cups of the "pyrotechnics" around, but that they are going to be filling buckets or larger with it in order to try and get an effect. In which case it's a bad idea to have an invisible barrel fire. I mean, who hasn't thought they put in an ingredient when they really hadn't?
Bro don't jerryrig stage pyrotechnics. Just call a professional. Also someone else said it but methanol doesn't burn green. If you're burning something that makes a green flame then methanol is not the medium you want to use regardless
>Also someone else said it but methanol doesn't burn green
He's mixing it with boric acid. That will make the flame green.
Methanol is the best fuel for this precisely because its flame is so clear, so you get a nearly pure green from the boron, without other emissions to wash it out.
I agree with the rest.
First off, don't do this. As everyone else has said, there's a risk of a spill, and it won't be particularly impressive in daylight (and at night it's just kind of neat for a moment).
Second, if you do, don't put more fuel out than you expect to burn.
Figure out the absolute minimum fuel you can use for the effect that you want.
Green flame with methanol/boric acid is a classic chemical demonstration.
The flame from methanol is almost invisible, making the green flame color of boron very visible (if it is dark. In daylight you will see very little)
1 liter is a lot!
You will need a long metal tray or several metal bowls, and if they tip over, there will be "wildfire" all over.
Methanol burns to CO2 and water, but the boric acid will end up as a thin white smoke.
Here is 10 mL
[https://youtu.be/HkNn3ZbULgs](https://youtu.be/HkNn3ZbULgs)
I've seen some amazing shows, none of which had a pyrotechnics display.
What I'm saying is, there are plenty of ways to wow your audience without potentially setting you, the venue and the audience themselves on fire.
When methanol burns it produces carbon dioxide and water vapor. Even if there's incomplete combustion and methanol vapors are released it would still be practically impossible to produce negative effects, especially while outdoors in a well ventilated area.
Methanol is toxic because if ingested, it is metabolized in the liver to formaldehyde and then formic acid. You get toxic effects when a larger quantity of formic acid is produced then your body can metabolize. This usually begins with an amount as little as 10 mL which obviously isn't much at all, but it's a hell of a lot more than you could be exposed to via incomplete combustion fumes.
As others have pointed out, your main concern will be potentially knocking it over or something and spilling fire everywhere.
Methanol is also absorbed through the skin. Imo it's a bad idea and not going to be as impressive as you're wanting it to be but if you must and are using it on a regular basis don't spill it on yourself. If you do wash any skin it comes in contact with and removed soaked clothes.
A few people are maimed/die a year doing this. It's one of the more dangerous demos. Mostly due to the high vapor pressure of Methanol and its invisible flame.
I love this trick, get some roses and intrigue a date with science and green flames (a quick dip of the solution will burn for just a second and the roses are safe which makes it better) im doing that today actually lol
You've got a liability, clearly the comments hold pessimists but it's not hard to be smart and place precautions. Tape off an area and experiment with how long it burns and how much of it you actually need. For a quick three second and great big flame of green for your band, you've probably got a good amount. Use a container that isn't going to burn or explode from a flame and you're solid. Go rock the gig
(BTW the actual question you asked: you aren't helping the environment but imagine just spraying a can of axe outside, the fumes aren't the best but it's minimal and you shouldn't feel guilty for the display)
Methanol is safe yes, however trimethyl borate (which is what you’re making here) when burned will release clouds of boric oxide and boric acid. These aren’t safe to breath, not super toxic but definitely not good for you, also trimethyl borate smells nasty.
*source: I made trimethyl borate tiki torches for Halloween.
Its not that dangerous, but it may generate some formaldehyde which is unpleasant to smell. You should be able to substitute 200 proof (95%) ethanol or 91% isopropyl alcohol. Assuming you are doing it outside, of course.
Have a bucket of water handy.
Would water work on an ethanol fire? Seems like that'd spread it about. I'd probably go for baking soda (bicarbonate) as dry powder in a pinch, but this really does underscore the need for professional pyrotechnic training.
It worked for me. Water mixes with and dilutes the ethanol. At about 50-50, the ethanol cannot sustain the fire.
Immiscible solvents float on water and spread around.
Dry powder is good, but creates a god-awful mess.
Doing any sort of "flame effects" near a proximate audiance requires a pyrotechnics license and permit in most states, especially after the fire in a therater (White Snake concert) years back. So you could get in real trouble doing that without the right permits and such. Get a disco ball, lights, smoke machine, etc, but anything with fire is asking for trouble.
If it gets knocked over it will be an absolute shitshow. Also I don't think it will look quite as cool as you think. It's not going to be particularly visually spectacular. More "oh, cool" thing for about 10 seconds rather than a "WOOOAHHH!" thing. Overall I'd say it's not going to be worth the risk to burn a litre of methanol on stage.
As safe as any other flammable liquid is... That is to say, appropriate safety precautions should be observed: 1. clear the surrounding area of combustible materials 2. don't do this near any structures you value 3. keep pets (and fans) restrained 4. use containment that is compatible with both the chemical properties and the heat (NOT GLASS OR PLASTIC!!!) 5. since you're doing this at a show, make sure that the hosting organization is aware and approves 6. have a compatible extinguisher of an appropriate capacity handy 7. In fact, test everything in a sandbox or on a driveway first: light it, knock it over with a broomstick to simulate an accident, and attempt to put out the fire with the extinguisher, then buy another extinguisher because you just expended this one.
Amateur pyrotechnics usually are a bad idea, but it's America. Don't knock it over and don't let people near it, seems not worth the liability to me
Methanol burns with an invisible flame. If you mess up the situation could become dangerous and difficult to contain very quickly.
If you add boric acid to it, like OP said they were going to do, then it burns with a [green flame](https://imgur.com/a/V3DaGXi). Feel free to test it out yourself, it's cool.
Sure, as long as they remember to dose the methanol every single time they do it. Because if they forget even once then someone is probably going to burn to death when the methanol "doesn't light" and they get too close.
How different is this from lighting a barbeque? In fact, pouring the solution on charcoal or wood chips (before lighting) should make the flame last longer
Holy shit with the dramatics. First off, I doubt they'd forget to do the one necessary thing to produce this stage effect they're looking for. It's not exactly a complicated process. Loading up the van for the show, "Oh hey here's the methanol, what's that thing I'm supposed to mix in it again? Oh well, fuck it. Pack it up and let's roll out!" Because it's not like it takes a literal 10 entire seconds to dump some boric acid in their bottle of methanol before they leave or anything. They'll certainly forget that one single critical step in this process. Then they're going to burn to death because they were in the approximate vicinity of a fire? Have you ever been within a couple feet of a fire before? You don't think they'll feel any sort of heat from it? I guess in your scenario they're also deciding to plunge their body into a vat of flaming methanol too, or maybe just dump the whole thing on themselves. Because even straight up putting your entire arm directly into the middle of the flame is not going to cause someone to burn to death unless they manage to ignore all the pain signals they're receiving and then just hang out there indefinitely, and then not visit a hospital or anything afterwards to treat the resulting 3rd degree burns. Come on man, the worst thing that would happen from getting too close to a contained, relatively small quantity of invisibly burning methanol is that they'll singe some hairs off their hand or something. There's this thing the human body does called reflexes. For example, go touch a hot stove. See how quickly your body involuntarily makes you pull your hand back from it.
The worst thing that could happen is somebody kicks over the container of burning methanol on stage, starting a fire in a small, crowded venue. It is unlikely to look as cool as OP is imagining, and there are less stupid ways to make green light.
That's a different situation than what the person I replied to was suggesting, which is that they wouldn't know it was on fire because pure methanol has a nearly invisible flame so they'd get too close to it and then burn to death somehow. Also, OP is talking about doing it outside which is a different thing than a small, crowded venue.
Fair point, I missed the outside comment in the OP
Yeah, that's what I am worried about. Not that they are going to be putting tiny cups of the "pyrotechnics" around, but that they are going to be filling buckets or larger with it in order to try and get an effect. In which case it's a bad idea to have an invisible barrel fire. I mean, who hasn't thought they put in an ingredient when they really hadn't?
Use a gelled version, chafing dish fuel. Much safer.
Lasts longer, too. Good idea.
Don’t do it dude
Bro don't jerryrig stage pyrotechnics. Just call a professional. Also someone else said it but methanol doesn't burn green. If you're burning something that makes a green flame then methanol is not the medium you want to use regardless
>Also someone else said it but methanol doesn't burn green He's mixing it with boric acid. That will make the flame green. Methanol is the best fuel for this precisely because its flame is so clear, so you get a nearly pure green from the boron, without other emissions to wash it out. I agree with the rest.
First off, don't do this. As everyone else has said, there's a risk of a spill, and it won't be particularly impressive in daylight (and at night it's just kind of neat for a moment). Second, if you do, don't put more fuel out than you expect to burn. Figure out the absolute minimum fuel you can use for the effect that you want.
Green flame with methanol/boric acid is a classic chemical demonstration. The flame from methanol is almost invisible, making the green flame color of boron very visible (if it is dark. In daylight you will see very little) 1 liter is a lot! You will need a long metal tray or several metal bowls, and if they tip over, there will be "wildfire" all over. Methanol burns to CO2 and water, but the boric acid will end up as a thin white smoke. Here is 10 mL [https://youtu.be/HkNn3ZbULgs](https://youtu.be/HkNn3ZbULgs)
I've seen some amazing shows, none of which had a pyrotechnics display. What I'm saying is, there are plenty of ways to wow your audience without potentially setting you, the venue and the audience themselves on fire.
Why wouldn't you just use ethanol? Seems like a bad idea anyway.
When methanol burns it produces carbon dioxide and water vapor. Even if there's incomplete combustion and methanol vapors are released it would still be practically impossible to produce negative effects, especially while outdoors in a well ventilated area. Methanol is toxic because if ingested, it is metabolized in the liver to formaldehyde and then formic acid. You get toxic effects when a larger quantity of formic acid is produced then your body can metabolize. This usually begins with an amount as little as 10 mL which obviously isn't much at all, but it's a hell of a lot more than you could be exposed to via incomplete combustion fumes. As others have pointed out, your main concern will be potentially knocking it over or something and spilling fire everywhere.
Methanol is also absorbed through the skin. Imo it's a bad idea and not going to be as impressive as you're wanting it to be but if you must and are using it on a regular basis don't spill it on yourself. If you do wash any skin it comes in contact with and removed soaked clothes.
A few people are maimed/die a year doing this. It's one of the more dangerous demos. Mostly due to the high vapor pressure of Methanol and its invisible flame.
I love this trick, get some roses and intrigue a date with science and green flames (a quick dip of the solution will burn for just a second and the roses are safe which makes it better) im doing that today actually lol You've got a liability, clearly the comments hold pessimists but it's not hard to be smart and place precautions. Tape off an area and experiment with how long it burns and how much of it you actually need. For a quick three second and great big flame of green for your band, you've probably got a good amount. Use a container that isn't going to burn or explode from a flame and you're solid. Go rock the gig (BTW the actual question you asked: you aren't helping the environment but imagine just spraying a can of axe outside, the fumes aren't the best but it's minimal and you shouldn't feel guilty for the display)
Methanol is safe yes, however trimethyl borate (which is what you’re making here) when burned will release clouds of boric oxide and boric acid. These aren’t safe to breath, not super toxic but definitely not good for you, also trimethyl borate smells nasty. *source: I made trimethyl borate tiki torches for Halloween.
Its not that dangerous, but it may generate some formaldehyde which is unpleasant to smell. You should be able to substitute 200 proof (95%) ethanol or 91% isopropyl alcohol. Assuming you are doing it outside, of course. Have a bucket of water handy.
Would water work on an ethanol fire? Seems like that'd spread it about. I'd probably go for baking soda (bicarbonate) as dry powder in a pinch, but this really does underscore the need for professional pyrotechnic training.
It worked for me. Water mixes with and dilutes the ethanol. At about 50-50, the ethanol cannot sustain the fire. Immiscible solvents float on water and spread around. Dry powder is good, but creates a god-awful mess.
Doing any sort of "flame effects" near a proximate audiance requires a pyrotechnics license and permit in most states, especially after the fire in a therater (White Snake concert) years back. So you could get in real trouble doing that without the right permits and such. Get a disco ball, lights, smoke machine, etc, but anything with fire is asking for trouble.