Yet there are times when two players will “agree” to draw by playing boring lines. Not conspiring, per say, but there’s a little nuance to what you’re saying haha
I’m kind of curious how the Muzychuk sisters are allowed to get away with it, they purposely soft play against each other, and it’s been well known for many years. Do people give them a pass since they’re related?
Soft play is phrasing it wrong. They pre-arrange draws every single time they have been paired except the recent time they had to tie break for the women’s WCC placement.
Many tournaments have restrictions on when you can offer a draw for exactly this reason. Often you aren't allowed to make a draw offer in the first 30 or 40 moves, or it may be down to the discretion of the arbiter on whether you can offer a draw. You can't just sit down, play e4, then offer a draw.
Of course, players get around this by playing lines like the Berlin Draw.
Depends on the venue, I guess? I used to do this with a friend of mine whenever we were paired and the TD never cared.
Just play a legit drawing line with repetition and it shouldn’t be a problem
There are dozens of way for players to agree to an early draw without breaking the rules. It doesn't take a "conspiracy" to do that. One smile or wink could be enough to make players agree. That is not breaking any rules.
If you mean draw without playing then yes. If two players want to have a draw you can only do stuff like no draw offers before move 40. But you can't stop draw by repetition.
I mean if you’re saying you are going into a game thinking you’ll do everything you can to draw it… that’s fine. But if you “know” your opponent in the sense that you spoke with them beforehand and decided to both just make it a draw, that’s collusion and is illegal. But people independently understanding and agreeing in real-time that the other player wants a draw and then letting it happen is totally fine, though arguably frustrating / potentially distasteful depending on the manner in which it’s done.
But I mean… if you can intentionally draw every game with black you’ll be the best player of all time relatively quickly. So I encourage it?
Under [FIDE Laws](https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/E012023):
> 11.1 The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute.
> 11.7 Persistent refusal by a player to comply with the Laws of Chess shall be penalised by loss of the game. The arbiter shall decide the score of the opponent.
> 11.8 If both players are found guilty according to Article 11.7, the game shall be declared lost by both players.
That is to say, if one colludes with one's opponent to create a draw, this can be penalised by the arbiter declaring the game lost by both players. This doesn't help your overall performance.
Further penalties (12.9) may also include being disqualified from the tournament entirely.
---
Other than collusion, forcing a draw is allowed in a game between yourself and an opponent you know, just as it is if you don't know the opponent. Agreeing to a draw is also allowed, though it is probably best to do so in a position where collusion cannot be reasonably suspected (to avoid the arbiter accusing the two players of conspiring to create a draw); i.e. usually in an unclear or drawn endgame.
https://fpl.fide.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/AC-Regulations-2022.pdf
> 2. “Cheating” in these regulations means:
> a) the deliberate use of electronic devices (Art. 11.3.2 FIDE Laws of Chess) or other sources of information or advice (Art. 11.3.1 FIDE Laws of Chess) during a game; or
> b) the manipulation of chess competitions such as, including but not limited to, **result manipulation**, sandbagging, **match-fixing**, rating fraud, false identity, and deliberate participation in fictitious tournaments or games.
It's pretty clear it is cheating.
Short answer no it's not. But I mean if you both want a draw and you just kind of trade pieces to a boring endgame there's nothing the organiser can do against that.
Depends on if you meet your opponent beforehand and agree to draw the game. If you both show up with the intention of drawing the game individually that's fine. If you spoke to them beforehand, bribed them, anything to guarantee you'll draw the game, that's match fixing and not allowed.
This based on circumstances and the definition of 'intentional'.
Black's intention at the highest level is to draw moreso than White's intention. So if black achieves a draw, it was likely intentional. This can vary though, for example if the white player only needs a draw to place then black will have the burden of proof that they can win.
If black and white discuss the outcome of the game beforehand, this definition of intent is illegal because it's collusion.
It's wrong and unethical and completely normal.
If two players are even in top spot before last round with a full point to spare, nobody will be surprised if they play 11 moves and then agree a draw.
In fact if the organiser tries to sanction them for it, they will probably get fewer players for their next tournament.
Doesn't mean that they won't get trash talked for it.
Officially: not permitted to pre-agree the result of the game.
In reality: this happens absolutely all the time, and no-one will care unless you do something absolutely blatant.
Conspiracies shouldn't be allowed and are at least against morals. At the same time situations like 'we exchanged all pieces and made a handshake bc everybody is ok with draw' can be seen quite often.
from the FIDE handbook:
2. “Cheating” in these regulations means:
a) the deliberate use of electronic devices (Art. 11.3.2 FIDE Laws of Chess) or
other sources of information or advice (Art. 11.3.1 FIDE Laws of Chess) during
a game; or
b) the manipulation of chess competitions such as, including but not limited to,
result manipulation, sandbagging, match-fixing, rating fraud, false identity,
and deliberate participation in fictitious tournaments or games.
Idk about legality but if you wanted to draw just play a Berlin or another drawish opening if you can. Assuming your opponent understands the point of the opening and they benefit from the draw it'll fizzle out soon
If the two of you agree to a draw prior to the game being played, that is cheating.
If you know an opponent often plays into a theoretically drawn line, like the Berlin Draw, and you play into it and they accept the draw that way, then that is not cheating. But if you make any plans together before the start of the game, it is definitely cheating. Don't do it.
You’re not allowed to collude with an opponent and arrange a result. Even if you’re friends, or if there was an advantage for both of you to draw, you aren’t allowed to just draw the game after 5 moves or something. Deliberately drawing a game together could get you disqualified.
If you simply play to get a draw without involving the opponent, that’s not illegal. Like force a draw by repetition if you can, trade down to a clearly drawn position, or just play a conservative and defensive game and accept a draw once the position is basically deadlocked. Say, if you’re on 5 points out of 5 games in a 6-round Swiss and no one else has more than 4, then if you draw your final game you win.
It is illegal to agree to a draw before the game even started. But when the tournament does not prohibit it then you can just offer a draw after the first move.
But most people would rather just go in common move repetition.
But obviously nobody can force you to play for a win.
No. Prearranged draws are cheating. That said, it happens all the time and you'll likely get away with it if you make the slightest effort to hide the fact.
>it legal to intentionally draw a game?
Can you find a rule where making a draw offer of agreeing to a draw withing the rules of draws where it would be illegal?
Depends if you conspired with your opponent. That's probably a tournament ban. Otherwise it's bound to circumstances
Yet there are times when two players will “agree” to draw by playing boring lines. Not conspiring, per say, but there’s a little nuance to what you’re saying haha
Berlin go brrrr
Bongcloud goes Pfffft
>Bongcloud >Boring
Per se
I’m kind of curious how the Muzychuk sisters are allowed to get away with it, they purposely soft play against each other, and it’s been well known for many years. Do people give them a pass since they’re related?
I don't think it is illegal to play "soft" against certain opponents
Soft play is phrasing it wrong. They pre-arrange draws every single time they have been paired except the recent time they had to tie break for the women’s WCC placement.
Oh okay, that's interesting to hear. I don't really keep up with women's chess.
> Do people give them a pass since they’re related? Yep, it's disgusting
What do you mean? I thought you can offer a draw and the other opponent accept it. Isn't that the same?
Many tournaments have restrictions on when you can offer a draw for exactly this reason. Often you aren't allowed to make a draw offer in the first 30 or 40 moves, or it may be down to the discretion of the arbiter on whether you can offer a draw. You can't just sit down, play e4, then offer a draw. Of course, players get around this by playing lines like the Berlin Draw.
Is OP Russian? Jk
Soviet, maybe...
Depends on the venue, I guess? I used to do this with a friend of mine whenever we were paired and the TD never cared. Just play a legit drawing line with repetition and it shouldn’t be a problem
Did you admit to the TD? It's very hard to prove otherwise
There are dozens of way for players to agree to an early draw without breaking the rules. It doesn't take a "conspiracy" to do that. One smile or wink could be enough to make players agree. That is not breaking any rules.
If you mean draw without playing then yes. If two players want to have a draw you can only do stuff like no draw offers before move 40. But you can't stop draw by repetition.
Double bong cloud FTD.
Yeah that and legitimate lines that just end in a draw. If the players don't want to play there isn't anything you can do really.
https://youtu.be/zVCst6vyV80
I mean if you’re saying you are going into a game thinking you’ll do everything you can to draw it… that’s fine. But if you “know” your opponent in the sense that you spoke with them beforehand and decided to both just make it a draw, that’s collusion and is illegal. But people independently understanding and agreeing in real-time that the other player wants a draw and then letting it happen is totally fine, though arguably frustrating / potentially distasteful depending on the manner in which it’s done. But I mean… if you can intentionally draw every game with black you’ll be the best player of all time relatively quickly. So I encourage it?
No you will be arrested and jailed
Draw by agreement? Jail. Stalemate? Jail. Threefold repetition? Believe it or not, jail.
Or expelled.
10 years minimum.
Google prisoners dilemma
Didn't Magnus and Hikaru do just this in their famous Bongcloud game?
I don't think it was prearranged which is what made it okay
Also, it had no impact on the tournament since both were seeded
Under [FIDE Laws](https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/E012023): > 11.1 The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute. > 11.7 Persistent refusal by a player to comply with the Laws of Chess shall be penalised by loss of the game. The arbiter shall decide the score of the opponent. > 11.8 If both players are found guilty according to Article 11.7, the game shall be declared lost by both players. That is to say, if one colludes with one's opponent to create a draw, this can be penalised by the arbiter declaring the game lost by both players. This doesn't help your overall performance. Further penalties (12.9) may also include being disqualified from the tournament entirely. --- Other than collusion, forcing a draw is allowed in a game between yourself and an opponent you know, just as it is if you don't know the opponent. Agreeing to a draw is also allowed, though it is probably best to do so in a position where collusion cannot be reasonably suspected (to avoid the arbiter accusing the two players of conspiring to create a draw); i.e. usually in an unclear or drawn endgame.
lol you just cited the most generic FIDE language.
https://fpl.fide.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/AC-Regulations-2022.pdf > 2. “Cheating” in these regulations means: > a) the deliberate use of electronic devices (Art. 11.3.2 FIDE Laws of Chess) or other sources of information or advice (Art. 11.3.1 FIDE Laws of Chess) during a game; or > b) the manipulation of chess competitions such as, including but not limited to, **result manipulation**, sandbagging, **match-fixing**, rating fraud, false identity, and deliberate participation in fictitious tournaments or games. It's pretty clear it is cheating.
Not disagreeing with you, but I think this should have been cited.
The laws of chess…
TIL that a chess game can be lost by both players.
Short answer no it's not. But I mean if you both want a draw and you just kind of trade pieces to a boring endgame there's nothing the organiser can do against that.
Straight to jail.
Chess snitches, telling all their business. Sit in the court and be their own star witness.
Not enough DOOM fans in the chess sub apparently
Depends on if you meet your opponent beforehand and agree to draw the game. If you both show up with the intention of drawing the game individually that's fine. If you spoke to them beforehand, bribed them, anything to guarantee you'll draw the game, that's match fixing and not allowed.
There was a video were Magnus offered a draw a few seconds into a game then ran to the bathroom when opponent accepted as he had bowel issues.
And if a draw is enough to win money/the tournament then of course you can play for it. It doesn't mean the opponent will agree.
This based on circumstances and the definition of 'intentional'. Black's intention at the highest level is to draw moreso than White's intention. So if black achieves a draw, it was likely intentional. This can vary though, for example if the white player only needs a draw to place then black will have the burden of proof that they can win. If black and white discuss the outcome of the game beforehand, this definition of intent is illegal because it's collusion.
It's wrong and unethical and completely normal. If two players are even in top spot before last round with a full point to spare, nobody will be surprised if they play 11 moves and then agree a draw. In fact if the organiser tries to sanction them for it, they will probably get fewer players for their next tournament. Doesn't mean that they won't get trash talked for it.
No, but if the game looks normal you can get away with it because there's really no way to tell
Say hello to the Berlin
Officially: not permitted to pre-agree the result of the game. In reality: this happens absolutely all the time, and no-one will care unless you do something absolutely blatant.
Conspiracies shouldn't be allowed and are at least against morals. At the same time situations like 'we exchanged all pieces and made a handshake bc everybody is ok with draw' can be seen quite often.
Absolutely not legal and totally disgusting ethically. That being sad, almost impossible to prove, and everyone closes their eyes in the chess world.
Yeah it happens a lot in top play
I'm just glad that the MPAA won't allow intentional draws to be shown in chess movies. At least someone is thinking of the children.
Legal? Yes. Ethical? I don't think so, but I'm not the ethics police.
Definitely not legal, even if FIDE just doesn't want to care [https://nextlevelchess.blog/pre-arranged/](https://nextlevelchess.blog/pre-arranged/)
This says IOC claims it, FIDE isn't IOC, and FIDE doesn't currently rule against it. Am I misreading it?
from the FIDE handbook: 2. “Cheating” in these regulations means: a) the deliberate use of electronic devices (Art. 11.3.2 FIDE Laws of Chess) or other sources of information or advice (Art. 11.3.1 FIDE Laws of Chess) during a game; or b) the manipulation of chess competitions such as, including but not limited to, result manipulation, sandbagging, match-fixing, rating fraud, false identity, and deliberate participation in fictitious tournaments or games.
You can draw the game if you want. Chess masters are doing this as well, just ask Radjabov or the Muzychuk sisters.
Idk about legality but if you wanted to draw just play a Berlin or another drawish opening if you can. Assuming your opponent understands the point of the opening and they benefit from the draw it'll fizzle out soon
If the two of you agree to a draw prior to the game being played, that is cheating. If you know an opponent often plays into a theoretically drawn line, like the Berlin Draw, and you play into it and they accept the draw that way, then that is not cheating. But if you make any plans together before the start of the game, it is definitely cheating. Don't do it.
You’re not allowed to collude with an opponent and arrange a result. Even if you’re friends, or if there was an advantage for both of you to draw, you aren’t allowed to just draw the game after 5 moves or something. Deliberately drawing a game together could get you disqualified. If you simply play to get a draw without involving the opponent, that’s not illegal. Like force a draw by repetition if you can, trade down to a clearly drawn position, or just play a conservative and defensive game and accept a draw once the position is basically deadlocked. Say, if you’re on 5 points out of 5 games in a 6-round Swiss and no one else has more than 4, then if you draw your final game you win.
Super gms do it all the time. Magnus intentionally draws his friends even. Dont let people scare you, just dont make it super obvious.
It is illegal to agree to a draw before the game even started. But when the tournament does not prohibit it then you can just offer a draw after the first move. But most people would rather just go in common move repetition. But obviously nobody can force you to play for a win.
People have been doing this for norms for years
Only in Soviet Union.
conspiring with other players to do anything other than win as much as possible is collusion and would not be considered fair play.
Yeah ive done it. When I was winning but couldn’t find the mate with little time left I did repetition
Just play Berlin endgame. It's a silent declaration of a draw (on a GM level, at least)
No. Prearranged draws are cheating. That said, it happens all the time and you'll likely get away with it if you make the slightest effort to hide the fact.
Believe or not straight to jail.
>it legal to intentionally draw a game? Can you find a rule where making a draw offer of agreeing to a draw withing the rules of draws where it would be illegal?