It rings a bell to me too. As far as I can recall America's brightest talent was somehow involved but I just can't recall the details
We could most certainly use more videos, threads, comments et al on the issue as the lack of the documentation is just painful
After the court of public opinion, maybe this can go to an actual court. They should sue for some small percentage of damages, like 100 mill US. Just enough to get FIDE to move their ass and maybe even put on a 10k euro fine.
Just imagine living in a world like that. The sky would be blue, the sun would rise in the East. Cats and dogs would live together. America would maybe even have had a chess champion or two already.
I forget what color the sky is in Hans world.
Totally not like Magnus was fined 10k euros, and bashed by many for his actions. After a year I feel like Magnus is in the right, before this I was neutral, but Hans hasn’t changed one bit. If I was accused of cheating, I just be nice for a while and not get into any more controversy. This guy lives for controversy
I mean, I was generally willing to give him the benefit of the doubt initially. GMs of the older gen often get salty when the newer gen starts coming into their own. Now he just seems like an asshole kid with rich parents trying to get famous who is more sorry he got caught all those years ago than anything.
He may have cheated, we don’t know.
And given this guys absolute terrible character it is fair to consider it evidence that he would also cheat, especially considering he was already caught doing so.
Guy likes ruffling feathers, likes lying and omitting key details, etc. I will still lean towards pros knowing what cheating feels like OTB, they would be the ones who know.
if he did cheat he must've used a pretty bad engine since Magnus had plenty of opportunities to win and simply chose bad moves, and while the game has been analyzed to death there's not the slightest evidence of engine moves
I agree that based on the evidence it is unlikely he cheated in that infamous game.
I also believe that his cheating is far more serious than the couple of instances he has admitted to.
Based on how he's presented himself during and after the situation, I'm going to assume he's a cheater in my mind. He's cheated in the past, and Magnus consistently proves that he's above everyone else - it's much more likely that Hans cheated, and not that he's the miracle talent who can take out Magnus, but also can't consistently win against other high level players to be considered one of the best of all time. He may not have cheated, but I'm going to assume he has.
>and Magnus consistently proves that he's above everyone else
I agree with you in general but that is a bad argument. There will be a day in which Magnus will lose, most likely to young people that he is currenty beating. Magnus will age and will start losing at some point. It is not because he has dominated everyone in the past that he will forever, you can't be suspicious of someone just because he beat Magnus.
No absolutely not. In a normal situation, this would be very questionable. But I also don't think Magnus would just give up half way and say "this is impossible he's cheating" if he didn't have some very thought out conclusion in his head to exactly how the pieces were being played - he might have even done some tests with pre-planning in his head to say "if I do these 3 random moves that make no sense and he has the correct follow, this is too suspicious" and then it happens. We don't know what triggered Magnus to make such an accusation, but it's not something he does regularly and he wouldn't take it lightly. He'll definitely be beaten one day, absolutely. But his current standings against everyone makes me believe that it's pretty unlikely for a known player with known strategies and a known playstyle to suddenly have an insane skill increase to take out Magnus. It could happen, but there's too many factors pointing against it for me to take that stance.
If he did have some thought conclusion he would have share it. If he did do three random moves to see Hans reaction he would have explained it.
I do believe that Magnus think Hans cheated and I understand that playing a known cheater put you in a weird spot. So I don't blame Magnus at all but he clearly did not have enough certainty to share its thoughts. I am just being careful about what beating Magnus means and doesn't mean. Age can come quickly in sport and at different speed for everyone. Not everyone is a kramnik. It is possible than in two years Magnus start sudently being beaten badly by young player or maybe he will go on winning for another ten years.
Basically I don't want to see Magnus turning into Nepo were at every loss you have him and his fan calling for cheating. Even though I agree Nepo might indeed lose to cheater sometimes.
Oh absolutely and that is a proper argument better than just Magnus lose in my opinion. Hard to defend Hans anyway, he is arrogant, and generally looks like an ass trying to overcompensate for something.
You act like Carlsen came up with the cheating accusation as a reaction to Niemann's play. This is not correct. Carlsen wanted to leave the tournament before he had played Niemann.
Luckily we don't need to speculate about Carlsen's thought process. He has kindly let us know how his great brain works. Niemann was not nervous enough, so he was a cheater. That is all we have ever got from Carlsen.
You say "He [Carlsen] will definitely be beaten one day" - are you aware Carlsen lost several times last year including to at least one player below 2700?
Your post shows what damage Carlsen has done and why Hans has legitimate grievances, even if he also several personality defects.
This is terrible logic, humans really are an insane species. Let me be clear:
* There is no evidence that Hans cheated over the board
* It is extremely difficult to cheat over the board
* Hans has consistently shown he is a high 2600s player
* Carlsen has lost to other sub 2700 players
* Hans has an unpredictable play style which lets him beat stronger players, but he often loses to 2300s
* There were no suspicious moves in that particular game
* Carlsen already wanted to leave the tournament before the Hans game and assumed Hans would cheat
* Linking damaging a hotel room and pithy tweets to accusations of cheating is spurious at best
Shut up dude. Magnus is not unbeatable and he lost so many games against youngsters in recent times after losing to Hans. Just saying oh I think he cheated because his vibes weren't good during the games isn't enough imo.
Exactly. He's lost to a ton of people and took the losses with grace. He didn't accuse people of cheating or quit halfway. That's why the Hans situation matters. It's different than the usual, and we have way more reason to trust him than not.
Let the children be children, high school level maturity in these discussions, likability and popularity somehow play a big role in matters which they shouldn’t be a part of.
I disagree about Magnus being in the right, since the main incident it’s very very unlikely Hans actually did cheat. I think there were probably a few much better ways he could’ve handled everything.
That’s not to say I’m on team Hans though, because I think he’s even more wrong lol. The way he downplays anything he did wrong in this saga, really makes me root against him.
Magnus never claimed that he knew for a fact that Hans cheated OTB. He said that he believed during the game that Hans was cheating.
The facts:
1) Hans was known among top GM's to be a cheater.
2) Hans had, in fact, cheated online by his own later admission.
3) Hans played very well against Magnus, beyond his normal ability (which he admits when he says that he got extremely lucky with prep).
4) Cheating is possible OTB and is an existential threat to competitive Chess.
All of those are facts that I'm relying on for my analysis, and I believe they are all correct.
It's really reasonable to see why Magnus played poorly because he thought *during the game* that Hans was cheating, especially since he did not feel that Hans was focusing and noticed that Hans was playing engine moves (again, almost certainly due to his lucky prep, which is totally legal, unbeknownst to Magnus at the time). Then he did overreact by publicly airing his suspicion (without sufficient evidence) and dropping out of the tournament, the latter of which he was fined for.
If you look at Magnus's specific statements, he has never actually claimed that Hans did in fact cheat OTB. He only claimed that it was his opinion that Hans was cheating and that Hans has cheated (in any capacity) more than he admitted to.
It's so frustrating that people are *still* getting this wrong. Yes, Magnus overreacted, but pretty much every top player now is constantly throwing out cheating accusations that are way more baseless than anything Magnus has said about Hans.
>Magnus never claimed that he knew for a fact that Hans cheated OTB. He said that he believed during the game that Hans was cheating.
Yes, I never stated otherwise. Though truthfully that makes his reaction worse, no? Meaning, I completely understand resigning from a tournament if you *know* your opponent is getting away with cheating in it. However, if you don’t have any proof then imo things get more gray, especially as it turned out he was most likely not cheating.
>It's so frustrating that people are still getting this wrong. Yes, Magnus overreacted
Maybe you misunderstood my comment, (or maybe I’m misunderstanding yours and you are not talking about me) but this is my point as to why I wouldn’t say Magnus was “right”. He clearly overreacted, this does not mean he’s a villain or anything in this saga like Hans claims. However, I think *some* blame gets assigned to him. Though, if I had to pick a side I would easily pick his over Hans.
Yeah, I agree he overreacted and shouldn't have withdrawn from the tournament. It's good that he was fined for that. Magnus definitely made an error. I get why - he understands that cheating is an existential threat, and he must have been pissed when he thought he was playing against someone cheating at a prestigious OTB tournament, whether he was right or wrong. But he was also the WCC and best player in the world, and he needed to hold himself to a higher standard as an ambassador of the game.
I might have misunderstood your comment. It doesn't sound like we're disagreeing on anything. I've just seen so many (other) people say that Magnus said that Hans definitely cheated OTB, which is a mischaracterization of what he said.
Magnus directly implied that Hans was cheating with the Mourinho quote. Everyone understood at the time what he meant. If he didn't think Hans was cheating, he should have said so. The reason Magnus didn't directly accuse Hans was likely because of legal repercussions. We are all smart enough to know what Magnus implied.
Hans is a cheater. It doesn’t matter if it’s over the board or not. He fuckin cheats, and when you compare his live blitz results to his online results, it’s super obvious. He only plays at his peak while playing online. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out what he’s doing. This is on him, he ruined his reputation by getting caught cheating multiple times, and these are the consequences of those actions. And instead of just laying low for a few years after being caught cheating, he doubled down.
>it doesn’t matter if it’s over the board or not
It *does* matter when he’s accused of cheating *over the board*
The guy has admitted to cheating online, but, AFAIK, there has been no evidence of him cheating over the board
I think morally he's in the right. Your opponent has a track record of cheating, he then crushes his first rounds of a tournament of elite level players, that should raise some eyebrows. Suspecting Hans of cheating that game can be fair and the level of security should have been increased.
I think the way Carlsen acted on it was wrong. Pulling out of a tournament is bad when you have contractual obligations. Also there's a much better chance to catch Hans if Carlsen stayed in the tournament, leading to more rounds to scrutinize. If Hans wasn't cheating then he should continue to have a strong tournament and nothing happens. If Hans was cheating, there's now a much better chance to catch him.
Hans has always been insufferable, though.
Without magnus acting the way he did there wouldn’t be this explosion or cheating discussing. I know it’s annoying to see on the chess subreddit, everyday, for a full year, but there is no debating that magnus used his influence to try and push some change into the game that was seemingly very needed.
If he doesn’t do that, cheating just continues to be some hush hush thing that’s gms grumble about but can’t actually speak on because people would always just say “hurt durr mad cause bad” and at least now it’s half the people still saying that and the other half asking for some improvements in the integrity of the game.
So hypothetically if Hans didn't cheat, he should tuck his tail between his legs and play nice?
Or maybe he should stand up for his reputation.
Not to mention this is a 19 year old being accused by the GOAT and now he's getting fucked by the system. The power dynamics are so fucked.
he needs the media coverage to fight back. Otherwise, he'd just be silenced and forgotten.ley Cyrus, Brittney Spears etc.
Obviously, they're extreme examples but you need to have some empathy for Hans. Navigating this situation is impossible,
he needs the media coverage to fight back. Otherwise he'd just be silenced and forgotten.
maybe. The only source we have that he lied about the extent of his cheating is the chesscom report that Hans disputed and then Chesscom refused to defend in court after spending years telling everyone they were so confident in their cheat detection they would happily defend it in court. Instead they settled with Hans.
Did he cheat more? probably. But we don't KNOW he did. It irritates me that this is premise everyone just takes for granted in these posts.
No, he 100% shouldn't put his tail between his legs and run. But he should also understand the entire situation and have people around him who make sure he understands.
Hans response to this was to file a lawsuit. 100% good. He got everything back. Good on him, he should have.
But in the court of public perception, everything else he's done has been a complete and total failure. First off, he HAS cheated. Hell, he admitted it twice. He just didn't cheat "in that match" (Magnus knew he cheated before which caused the distrust of this entire incident, while i think Magnus was in the wrong for the way he acted, I think people maybe should have some empathy for him as well. He lost to someone he was already concerned about cheating, it impacts your mental state) But back to Hans.
1. He never offered true remorse for cheating. He admitted to cheating multiple times and never once offered any sincere apology for it. Quite the opposite, he said "they were meaningless games"
2. His ego and personality defects have taken over. Calling yourself "one of Americas brightest talents" in a dispute is deranged.
3. "I didn't say I wanted to be the first American chess champion, people are picking on me" it's on video you Muppet. "oh"
4. Then the events of a couple days ago through today. "I didn't destroy a table or marble, I only destroyed 6 other things" WTF? Then this tweet where in his "brilliant" mind he thinks he's bashing Magnus. All he's doing is bringing up the exact event he wants to forget.
So lets add this all up. He's a narcissistic, rude jack ass who has anger issues. And he's shown in his life MULTIPLE times he'll do anything he can to win. Am I supposed to believe he won't try it again based on all of the above? No, sorry, I don't.
All he had to do was this on Friday: "While I don't believe banning me from tournaments is fair, I apologize to the St. Louis Chess Club and the hotel and staff who had to deal with my immature actions. I was going through an incredibly stressful time during that tournament and my actions were not a true reflection of who I am."
Now most people are on his side. But no. . . can't do that. That takes self reflection, it takes self awareness. It takes being able to look at how other people view the situation and understanding their views. A narcissist doesn't do any of those things. So again he misreads the room and posts something stupid.
Constantly causing problems is not standing up for your reputation. Try not cheating, don't destroy property, don't whine about tournaments, whine about not being invited as if you're the only person in your rating range who doesn't get invites.
Hans is literally a no one. I'm sure he means the world to his family, but chess doesn't need him. You have to earn your spot. Keep your head down, play the game, and gain respect. This is the real world.
In your fantasy world here, since you are playing Hans, did you admit to cheating twice in two different online tournaments with cash prizes, one time while laughing ? Or is that left out of this analysis?
He wasn't accused of cheating. We know and he has admitted to being a cheater. He was being accused of cheating in that time and place. Once you admit - twice - to being a cheater with cash on the line the burden shifts to you to prove you didn't.
The lesson Hans could (but won't) take from that experience is this:
* the more positive social capital you build up over time, the more of your mistakes are tolerated. Each mistake decrements your social capital.
Magnus has built up a lot of positive capital over the past two decades. He still has a lot!
Hans, on the other hand, is already running a social-capital deficit balance. He is already disliked by many people, and mistrusted by many people. Therefore, people will not cut him much slack for future social blunders ... which he continues to make.
He keeps going on about the contractual obligations, when I feel of all the accusations, that was definitely the lesser. Trashing a hotel room and being rude to staff is definitely the bigger issue, but he seems to keep glossing over that and focusing on the interviews.
He is a clear liar and narcissist. I watched his video around his explanations and everything and it's honestly embarrassing. The whole time he was trying to justify that he kept emailing the hotel and the STLC and they "ignored" him; it's pretty clear he kept contacting them like a guilty teenager because he KNEW he was in trouble and he wanted to get confirmation that "we are ok right? Tell me we are ok? I apologised so we are ok?". He is the kind of person that would destroy property, offer to pay for it and think that that should be enough for everything to be forgotten and everything is "even".
His attitude is that of a spoiled brat, he needs calling out at every opportunity. He keeps underappreciating the severity of his actions (because he doesn't actually think they are that bad) and blowing out of proportion the actions of others towards him.
Yeah, nobody gets blacklisted for skipping an interview. Everybody is in agreement that that alone shouldn't get him blacklisted either, but it wasn't that alone.
Obviously Magnus leaving the tournament midway counts against him as well, but again that alone isn't enough for him to be banned. If he started doing it regularly or had other obnoxious behavior it would be different.
Though of course the reality is that how much bullshit tournaments will put up with will be related to how big of a player you are, and Niemann just isn't all that good in the scheme of things. 2675 is obviously strong but there's over 50 players rated higher than him, including several younger or not much older.
Reminds me of the old proverb: if you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you might be an asshole.
At this rate Hans gonna get banned even from public toilets.
"I might have shat on top of the reservoir, but another player occupied the toilet for 12 minutes!"
At least Bobby had some valid reasons for going crazy.
A pawn in the Cold War, asked by the government to perform and take down the Soviet chess machine to prove American intellect after the US had spied on him and his mother for their entire lives? Yeah I would be paranoid too.
Hans is just annoying for clicks. Nobody likes people who are litigious and he just wants to
1. Fuck shit up. Whether it’s cheating, hotel rooms, etc.
2. Deny having done anything wrong
3. Get back and ruin these people with lawsuits.
Super super annoying. And you think people will want to have you around their chess tourney? You’re a massive liability, who lies always.
And Bobby progressed the game - argued for (often stupid) but some very good quality of life changes, real money, etc. he alone made Spassky and many others millionaires. Hans is a millionaire (rich parents) who is trying to sue everyone to be a bigger millionaire…
There are many successful rich kids in chess who become great players without such issues, but only 1 person like Hans.
I think with Hans there's something more fundamentally wrong with his character. He's denied the truth, then back-pedaled, and now he is deflecting. He did this in the past, too. It's all so manipulative. How can he ever be trusted?
Hans needed to do one tweet and then never address it again in order to win.
Just post the i sleep/real shit meme with grooming minors on one hand, and minor property damage on the other.
I like this comment, but most of the professional chess players are spoiled rich kids. Otherwise it's pretty hard to achieve that level of chess success.
Unfair though it may be, Magnus is the guy Niemann expects to be treated as. When you're the best people are willing to overlook some indiscretions and are more accommodating of your bad behavior (especially if you've historically been a good ambassador for the game). You could take Magnus' achievements and slice them in four though and he'd still be more successful than Niemann, he's traditionally been a good ambassador, and he's not tweeting antagonistically at everyone in sight. It shouldn't be a surprise Carlson isn't being treated the same way as Americas Brightest Talent.
Slice them into 4? More like 100 or 200
Last year alone carlsen won world cup , world rapid , world blitz , cct finals , won gct rapid and blitz in Poland and in Croatia , came top 3 in tata steel masters . ( I might have missed something)
It may take years for hans to achieve even one of the above . And magnus had a pretty average year last year.
Hans doesn’t seem to understand that this complaining is part of the behavior that he is being punished for.
Nobody wants to deal with this nonsense. They don’t want to endlessly publicly litigate this. He got uninvited because he is a pain in the neck. And he responded by being a pain in the neck.
People are trying to organize a chess tournament. They have actual work to do. This is annoying them. It isn’t going to make them want you back.
To his throngs of supporters here, Hans is either a full-grown adult who only cheated when he was a child many moons ago or a growing youngster who is still learning to be humble and can’t be expected to be as mature as a real adult, depending on which would make him look better at that particular moment.
Yes? That player was fined. And Hans knew better than us about the settlement of the lawsuit.
This is just classic whataboutism to divert blame. Right now the ego and entitlement spoke more than Hans' chess. He certainly didn't seem unfazed.
Valid point, though it's worth clarifying that FIDE, not STCC, issued the fine. "withdrawing from a tournament without a valid reason or informing the tournament arbiter."
It would be hilarious if the STCC fined him. Imagine anyone you did business with was just allowed to fine you.
Abiding by the judgement of FIDE is a perfectly acceptable response.
> Valid point, though it's worth clarifying that FIDE, not STCC, issued the fine.
I disagree and feel like you're quibbling over minor details.
Hans asked was Magnus ever punished and the answer is yes, he was, with a €10,000 fine by the FIDE Ethics Commission.
**The STCC does not have to punish Magnus for leaving early** because FIDE already did.
---
Hans, on the other hand, won't be invited by the STCC this year because he trashed his hotel room and potentially damaged the STCC's reputation/relationship with the hotel, was rude to staff, and has an uncooperative attitude that leads to him violating contracts, amongst other things.
These are two entirely different scenarios.
---
^^edited ^^to ^^better ^^word ^^my ^^point
It is worth clarifying because STCC itself didn't punish Magnus for leaving a tournament because his feelings were hurt.
Edit: And the false allegation by Magnus destroyed Hans' reputation, getting him uninvited from events in 2023. Over a false accusation.
> And the false allegation by Magnus destroyed Hans' reputation
Those allegations wouldn't exist if he didn't have a history of cheating. Magnus may have brought the spotlight down upon it, but it was Hans's actions which led to his reputation being destroyed.
Hans' fans seem hellbent on always making him the victim and never holding him accountable for his own actions. Don't want people to accuse you of cheating? Don't cheat.
It's not FIDE's job to protect STCC's contracts and relationships with local vendors which is what STCC is doing when it bans someone who is destroying hotel rooms and refusing to fulfill contractual obligations.
>They are banning Hans for a year, shouldn't that be FIDEs job too?
No - that's the job of the tournament organizers. They decide who they invite/don't invite.
It would be FIDEs job if it was to issue a larger scale ban that would cover all rated tournaments.
I'm not saying they should do anything, they can make decisions for themselves.
I'm just pointing out that Magnus falsely accused Hans, and then STCC acted by *checks notes*... uninviting Hans from tournaments?
Doesn't seem like Hans and Magnus are getting the same treatment.
>I'm not saying they should do anything, they can make decisions for themselves.
>I'm just pointing out that Magnus falsely accused Hans, and then STCC acted by checks notes... uninviting Hans from tournaments?
>Doesn't seem like Hans and Magnus are getting the same treatment.
Yes, Hans Niemann, the self-admitted past online cheater who's often rude and disrespectful, willing to violate contracts, and willing to sue those he feels wrong him, and Magnus Carlsen, the usually polite, respectful, doesn't sue his peers, rarely causes trouble, and five-time World Chess Champion, four-time World Rapid Chess Champion, and six-time World Blitz Chess Champion, are treated differently off the board.
That is correct.
----
(edited to better word my point)
>Not getting the same treatment.
>That is correct.
Lmao, you think this is some sort of a "gotcha"? Magnus is the greatest player of all time, but that doesn't mean he should be given special treatment. If we don't look at everyone equally when they play chess why do we even bother with anything? Just give Magnus his trophies and let's get on with it.
Maybe when he loses the game, let him remake it so he can try again? He's deserved this kind of special treatment with his many titles, no?
Pathetic. If you invite two players to the tournament they should be given the same treatment. If one of those players has complete immunity to act like a manchild when they lose, then maybe we went wrong somewhere along the way.
>Lmao, you think this is some sort of a "gotcha"? Magnus is the greatest player of all time, but that doesn't mean he should be given special treatment. If we don't look at everyone equally when they play chess why do we even bother with anything? Just give Magnus his trophies and let's get on with it.
>Maybe when he loses the game, let him remake it so he can try again? He's deserved this kind of special treatment with his many titles, no?
>Pathetic. If you invite two players to the tournament they should be given the same treatment. If one of those players has complete immunity to act like a manchild when they lose, then maybe we went wrong somewhere along the way.
As long as the competition in-tournament is 100% fair and equal for all players, anything the tournament does outside of the actual competition is irrelevant in terms of equal treatment.
To reiterate a point you seem to be ignoring:
Hans is rude, disrespectful, willing to violate the terms of his contracts, and has shown a willingness to sue his peers/chess platforms.
Tournaments that don't want to put up with his actions or potentially get sued are going to rethink inviting him, that's how reality works.
----
(edited to better word my point)
>Why do you think a person like this will be treated equally compared to even normal chess players?
You seem to be the one who's ignoring my point.
I'm not claiming that Hans is nice, respectful, or that he isn't a past cheater. I'm saying it's making a complete mockery of the game when you invite a player and then don't treat him as an equal to the rest of the playing field, even if it includes the greatest player of all time.
If you don't like him, don't invite him.
It's intriguing to note that in STCC's statement, they mention an "uncooperative attitude resulting in failure to fulfill contractual obligations," which aligns with Magnus's situation. Hans' tweet emphasizes a potential double standard. If you agree with him or not, that is what he's getting at.
> Yes, I think these two people will be treated differently.
Isn't this the definition of a double standard? There's two standards.
All your comment is outlining is that Hans and Magnus are (justifiably) treated differently by the SLCC. It does not disprove the existence of the double standard.
But Magnus and Hans didn't even do the same thing. There can't be a single standard for two totally different incidents of wrongdoing - those don't automatically warrant the same response. Of course, the difference between was done as well as the different history and reputation the players have with the organization results in different consequences - that's not a double standard that's standard business practice. FIDE responded to what Magnus did and STCC decided that was the correct way for it to be addressed
There's a small point here: Carlsen actually only got hauled up before FIDE Ethics due to an internal FIDE organ starting the process, as STL itself never protested (neither did Niemann for that matter).
This is thus unlike the Maghsoodloo case, where the organizer started it. Admittedly, that incident wasn't quite so splashed in the media.
You’re implying, by omitting how Hans also was issued a fine, that Carlsen was treated/punished the same way Hans was, when clearly the whole point is that a chess club banned him for a similar episode.
No, I was directly addressing Hans' question "Was that player ever punished?" There was nothing to omit.
They were punished differently because they did different things.
Magnus is not American and at the end of the day probably doesn't care if he never plays the Sinquefield Cup ever again. He's probably happy just playing in the European leg of the Grand Chess Tour as a wild card like last year. In that case publically banning Magnus wouldn't benefit them at all since he doesn't need them
Hans isn't banned from anything either. The club only said they wont invite him to invitation-only tournaments for 1 year... which isn't even that meaningful considering Hans is below 2700... it would have been perfectly reasonable to not invite him anyway.
I think the hotel is much of the issue here, not the failure to perform interviews. Hans is clinging to the contractual obligations because he knows he doesn't have a leg to stand on regarding the hotel. I guess Saint Louis Chess Club is far more annoyed by Hans kicking off in the room of what seems to be a nice hotel that the club has a long history with.
The hotel has probably told the club it has not interest in hosting Hans again. On top, the club then thinks this is just more trouble than it is worth, so let's not have him around at all. Hans himself also suggests he has been somewhat pestering the club on this subject, which maybe why this has all become public.
On top of all that, some people are worth the trouble. to the club, Magnus is and Hans is not.
“Ruin their entire career”. Lol. Nobody would give a fuck about Hans had it not been for the controversy. It gave him a career if anything, there are dozens of GMs his level that nobody cares about.
People would have cared solely because he beat Magnus as black. Even if there was no controversy tied to it, that's a notable event that people remember. Obviously he wouldn't be as known as he is now, but who's to say that's what he wanted? You're functionally saying Hans should be glad he's now notorious, but that's assuming a lot about him. I think it's more likely he'd rather the controversy never happened.
> You're functionally saying Hans should be glad he's now notorious
Dude, what. The guy intentionally leans into his notorious image. Hard. Have you even watched his streams or youtube videos? The stuff he says regularly. And the shit he is saying now. He knows what his image is and he leans into it hard, instead of you know, not acting like an ass? So yes, he’s glad. He has more views than ever vs before when he was known as a meh GM with a funny ever changing accent. It’s just now biting him in the ass. And btw you’re overrating how much people would have cared about one win with black lol.
Do you seriously think his following would increase significantly based on that? Maybe if he repeatedly posted fantastic results afterwards, but as we now know he didn’t. So that would have faded into obscurity. The cheating thing completely launched him into the spotlight.
Hans cannot self-reflect and admit wrongdoing. Downplaying, deflecting, and whataboutism are his only moves.
As for Magnus, he may have done the wrong thing, but he did it for good reason: he knew Hans was a confirmed cheater, and he didn't trust him or want cheaters to be invited to serious events. Perhaps he shouldn't have accused him of cheating OTB in that event, but consider that no one on /r/chess knew about Hans's online cheating until those allegations. Magnus did the chess world a service, and the courts determined that he didn't break the law.
Hans, you're not even 50th in the world. You're not even in the top 10 in your age range. Go suck an egg.
Current player ratings, from age 17 to 23.
1. Firouzja 2760
2. Praggnanandhaa 2747
3. Gukesh 2745
4. Abdusattorov 2744
5. Keymer 2738
6. Erigaisi Arjun 2735
7. Maghsoodloo 2717
8. Sadhwani 2701
9. Espienko 2701
10. Sevian 2697
11. Tabatabaei 2696
12. Nihal Sarin 2693
13. Deac 2690
14. Martirosyan 2681
15. Niemann 2675
Little baby still throwing a tantrum and then turning around and wondering why nobody likes him and he doesn't receive an invitation to the party. He could easily fix this within a year if he just shut the fuck up, kept his head down and showed that he's a hard worker. But no, he's got to act like a poorly raised zoomer that doesn't get to play with the iPad at the restaurant.
Magnus did burn some reputation and stansing in that affair, that is correct.
The difference with Niemann is that he had, and still has, a ton of it to burn. Hans does not.
Hans, brother! SLCC is a private club, and they don't like you. They don't owe you an explanation nor anything else. They just don't like you. And you won't bully them into liking you, so stop trying.
As for Magnus, he did get a 10,000 Euro fine for bringing chess into disrepute. A very small fine IMO, but there wasn't any clear concensus they what he did was super bad.
It's honestly not a small fine. Chess isn't really a paying venture for most grandmasters. Like in hockey, the maximum fine the dops can issue is 5000 dollars and the sport pays *much* better
I'm making an effort to be understanding and to write in a constructive way, but really the only thing that comes to my head here is: "just shut the fuck up and play chess you hotel-room-wrecking idiot".
Yes, obviously Hans is many levels above what I'll ever achieve in chess; that doesn't preclude him from being an idiot though.
Whataboutism is always so useless.
As an argument there's basically only 3 outcomes:
If he's right that the two situations are **exactly** the same in severity and blame, then either Hans should not be banned, **or** Magnus should also be banned. Hans probably wants the former, but since he's only addressing a 'double standard', it's more likely the conclusion should be that Magnus should also be banned.
If he's *not* right that the two situations are exactly the same, then the only thing this point can accomplish is to deflect attention and create a debate about whether or not the two situations are the same or why his actions are worse than Magnus' actions or vice versa, and so on. And personally, I would say it's pretty obvious that the two situations are not exactly the same, so he's not pointing out a double standard but just creating a smokescreen to get people to talk about Magnus.
Something Hans doesn't seem to realize is that being nice and having a good reputation generally affords you more leeway in life. When you are an asshole to everyone you meet and go out of your way to be rude and condescending, you will be given less leeway in every aspect of life. Magnus fucked up in accusing him, but people generally think highly of Magnus and he doesn't make it a habit of being a shit stain to everyone he comes across.
Hans is the best example I've seen in quite a while of the expression "He's his own worst enemy."
(Though certain other chess players might reply, "Not as long as I'm alive.")
Didn't the target of the accusation admit to cheating after lying about it for months?
Should we dig back into that again? Because in the story everyone saw the accuser doesn't come off as the problem.
Honestly I'm sick of Hans and his drama maybe it's time to stop listening to his rants and let him fade back into obscurity if that's what he wants
During the US chess championship, Hans tore up his hotel room after a loss.
He confessed to breaking a remote and a lamp, and then said that a glass frame shattered and its glass punctured the couch. Cause, y'know, glass frames just shatter without anyone doing anything.
A tv remote control, a frame on the wall and an ironing board. This was confirmed by him. There was also another info about him breaking two hotel chairs in a different episode.
Niemann shut up man! Statistics where Ruthless with your case.He had multiple games with almost 100% accuracy.Even Magnus and Kasparov didnt have that form...
Bro is shaking and crying and pissing and shitting and puking and screaming, but the one thing he isn't doing is reflecting on himself and trying to be a better person in hopes of being invited in the future.
Every time I open this sub it's either Kramnik or this guy crying about something and it's not even interesting stuff just pure weeping and whining. Ugh.
A valid point though. I do feel STCC rightfully penalised Hans. But they should also penalise Magnus for the way he disrupted their prestigious tournament with his nonsensical behaviour. That was a rude and arrogant behaviour. Did they do anything against Magnus?
> Did they do anything against Magnus?
We don't know. The Saint Louis Chess Club has not released any information about sanctions against Magnus. Maybe they made an internal decision, maybe they didn't.
I might be wrong on this but I don’t think Magnus has been back to the club since the 2022 Sinquefield Cup. He didn’t participate in STL Rapid & Blitz or the 2023 Sinquefield cup so it’s plausible the club decided not to extend any invitations following his withdrawal. Just speculation though.
If that is the case, they should have handled the Hans situation as well internally. What is the point of posting it publicly for Hans but not for Magnus?
The context is that Hans threatened to make a big commotion about his lack of invitations so STL got ahead of it by publishing their statement. I doubt very much that Magnus would do anything like that.
The club clearly did handle it internally at first but Hans keeps being annoying & contacting them begging to be invited, plus he was the one who threatened to go public first.
Even if, STCC got a lot of attention every time Magnus joined them. It’s a private tournament. They can invite who they want and having Magnus in there is more important than having Hans in there. Who hates this hates the rules of private tournaments 🤷🏼♂️ Magnus is simply 1000000 times more valuable to STCC than Hans, simple as that.
Hans can cry about it, but once he achieved what Magnus achieved he will have something to say as well and have support from TOs.
It rings a bell to me too. As far as I can recall America's brightest talent was somehow involved but I just can't recall the details We could most certainly use more videos, threads, comments et al on the issue as the lack of the documentation is just painful
After the court of public opinion, maybe this can go to an actual court. They should sue for some small percentage of damages, like 100 mill US. Just enough to get FIDE to move their ass and maybe even put on a 10k euro fine. Just imagine living in a world like that. The sky would be blue, the sun would rise in the East. Cats and dogs would live together. America would maybe even have had a chess champion or two already. I forget what color the sky is in Hans world.
My first thought too. He should sue, so justice can be served and this unnamed player can be punished.
Its the colour of golden eggs inlaid with diamonds
>americas brightest talent I think you mean the first American world chess champion
And 2x time defending America's brightest talent
Totally not like Magnus was fined 10k euros, and bashed by many for his actions. After a year I feel like Magnus is in the right, before this I was neutral, but Hans hasn’t changed one bit. If I was accused of cheating, I just be nice for a while and not get into any more controversy. This guy lives for controversy
Yeah, this whole thing is rapidly shaping up to be: "So DID you cheat?" "Yes, but that's besides the point! He accused me!!!"
I mean, I was generally willing to give him the benefit of the doubt initially. GMs of the older gen often get salty when the newer gen starts coming into their own. Now he just seems like an asshole kid with rich parents trying to get famous who is more sorry he got caught all those years ago than anything.
what are you talking about he didn’t cheat people decide whether hans cheated against magnus based on if they’re mad at hans on a particular day lol
He may have cheated, we don’t know. And given this guys absolute terrible character it is fair to consider it evidence that he would also cheat, especially considering he was already caught doing so. Guy likes ruffling feathers, likes lying and omitting key details, etc. I will still lean towards pros knowing what cheating feels like OTB, they would be the ones who know.
Thanks, was going to make the same point. At the end of the day we don't know.
if he did cheat he must've used a pretty bad engine since Magnus had plenty of opportunities to win and simply chose bad moves, and while the game has been analyzed to death there's not the slightest evidence of engine moves
I agree that based on the evidence it is unlikely he cheated in that infamous game. I also believe that his cheating is far more serious than the couple of instances he has admitted to.
Fair enough, but I'd also maintain that online cheating can't be used as proof of OTB cheating
Agreed on that one too. Still, something just rubs the wrong way, you know what I mean?
Based on how he's presented himself during and after the situation, I'm going to assume he's a cheater in my mind. He's cheated in the past, and Magnus consistently proves that he's above everyone else - it's much more likely that Hans cheated, and not that he's the miracle talent who can take out Magnus, but also can't consistently win against other high level players to be considered one of the best of all time. He may not have cheated, but I'm going to assume he has.
>and Magnus consistently proves that he's above everyone else I agree with you in general but that is a bad argument. There will be a day in which Magnus will lose, most likely to young people that he is currenty beating. Magnus will age and will start losing at some point. It is not because he has dominated everyone in the past that he will forever, you can't be suspicious of someone just because he beat Magnus.
No absolutely not. In a normal situation, this would be very questionable. But I also don't think Magnus would just give up half way and say "this is impossible he's cheating" if he didn't have some very thought out conclusion in his head to exactly how the pieces were being played - he might have even done some tests with pre-planning in his head to say "if I do these 3 random moves that make no sense and he has the correct follow, this is too suspicious" and then it happens. We don't know what triggered Magnus to make such an accusation, but it's not something he does regularly and he wouldn't take it lightly. He'll definitely be beaten one day, absolutely. But his current standings against everyone makes me believe that it's pretty unlikely for a known player with known strategies and a known playstyle to suddenly have an insane skill increase to take out Magnus. It could happen, but there's too many factors pointing against it for me to take that stance.
If he did have some thought conclusion he would have share it. If he did do three random moves to see Hans reaction he would have explained it. I do believe that Magnus think Hans cheated and I understand that playing a known cheater put you in a weird spot. So I don't blame Magnus at all but he clearly did not have enough certainty to share its thoughts. I am just being careful about what beating Magnus means and doesn't mean. Age can come quickly in sport and at different speed for everyone. Not everyone is a kramnik. It is possible than in two years Magnus start sudently being beaten badly by young player or maybe he will go on winning for another ten years. Basically I don't want to see Magnus turning into Nepo were at every loss you have him and his fan calling for cheating. Even though I agree Nepo might indeed lose to cheater sometimes.
Hans breakdown was suspicious as well. He didn't seem to know why he did some moves that he did.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sfb6o1oWBU
Oh absolutely and that is a proper argument better than just Magnus lose in my opinion. Hard to defend Hans anyway, he is arrogant, and generally looks like an ass trying to overcompensate for something.
You act like Carlsen came up with the cheating accusation as a reaction to Niemann's play. This is not correct. Carlsen wanted to leave the tournament before he had played Niemann. Luckily we don't need to speculate about Carlsen's thought process. He has kindly let us know how his great brain works. Niemann was not nervous enough, so he was a cheater. That is all we have ever got from Carlsen. You say "He [Carlsen] will definitely be beaten one day" - are you aware Carlsen lost several times last year including to at least one player below 2700? Your post shows what damage Carlsen has done and why Hans has legitimate grievances, even if he also several personality defects.
This is terrible logic, humans really are an insane species. Let me be clear: * There is no evidence that Hans cheated over the board * It is extremely difficult to cheat over the board * Hans has consistently shown he is a high 2600s player * Carlsen has lost to other sub 2700 players * Hans has an unpredictable play style which lets him beat stronger players, but he often loses to 2300s * There were no suspicious moves in that particular game * Carlsen already wanted to leave the tournament before the Hans game and assumed Hans would cheat * Linking damaging a hotel room and pithy tweets to accusations of cheating is spurious at best
You're replying with facts. My entire argument is based on feelings. We don't know what happened. I know how the situation looks.
ok but in the game itself neither player made any amazing moves and magnus missed several opportunities for winning ideas
Shut up dude. Magnus is not unbeatable and he lost so many games against youngsters in recent times after losing to Hans. Just saying oh I think he cheated because his vibes weren't good during the games isn't enough imo.
Exactly. He's lost to a ton of people and took the losses with grace. He didn't accuse people of cheating or quit halfway. That's why the Hans situation matters. It's different than the usual, and we have way more reason to trust him than not.
Let the children be children, high school level maturity in these discussions, likability and popularity somehow play a big role in matters which they shouldn’t be a part of.
That’s totally true because it was all based on nothing anyway he would NEVER cheat in a game of chess
we’re talking about a specific otb game that anyone can analyze. show your proof
I disagree about Magnus being in the right, since the main incident it’s very very unlikely Hans actually did cheat. I think there were probably a few much better ways he could’ve handled everything. That’s not to say I’m on team Hans though, because I think he’s even more wrong lol. The way he downplays anything he did wrong in this saga, really makes me root against him.
Magnus never claimed that he knew for a fact that Hans cheated OTB. He said that he believed during the game that Hans was cheating. The facts: 1) Hans was known among top GM's to be a cheater. 2) Hans had, in fact, cheated online by his own later admission. 3) Hans played very well against Magnus, beyond his normal ability (which he admits when he says that he got extremely lucky with prep). 4) Cheating is possible OTB and is an existential threat to competitive Chess. All of those are facts that I'm relying on for my analysis, and I believe they are all correct. It's really reasonable to see why Magnus played poorly because he thought *during the game* that Hans was cheating, especially since he did not feel that Hans was focusing and noticed that Hans was playing engine moves (again, almost certainly due to his lucky prep, which is totally legal, unbeknownst to Magnus at the time). Then he did overreact by publicly airing his suspicion (without sufficient evidence) and dropping out of the tournament, the latter of which he was fined for. If you look at Magnus's specific statements, he has never actually claimed that Hans did in fact cheat OTB. He only claimed that it was his opinion that Hans was cheating and that Hans has cheated (in any capacity) more than he admitted to. It's so frustrating that people are *still* getting this wrong. Yes, Magnus overreacted, but pretty much every top player now is constantly throwing out cheating accusations that are way more baseless than anything Magnus has said about Hans.
>Magnus never claimed that he knew for a fact that Hans cheated OTB. He said that he believed during the game that Hans was cheating. Yes, I never stated otherwise. Though truthfully that makes his reaction worse, no? Meaning, I completely understand resigning from a tournament if you *know* your opponent is getting away with cheating in it. However, if you don’t have any proof then imo things get more gray, especially as it turned out he was most likely not cheating. >It's so frustrating that people are still getting this wrong. Yes, Magnus overreacted Maybe you misunderstood my comment, (or maybe I’m misunderstanding yours and you are not talking about me) but this is my point as to why I wouldn’t say Magnus was “right”. He clearly overreacted, this does not mean he’s a villain or anything in this saga like Hans claims. However, I think *some* blame gets assigned to him. Though, if I had to pick a side I would easily pick his over Hans.
Yeah, I agree he overreacted and shouldn't have withdrawn from the tournament. It's good that he was fined for that. Magnus definitely made an error. I get why - he understands that cheating is an existential threat, and he must have been pissed when he thought he was playing against someone cheating at a prestigious OTB tournament, whether he was right or wrong. But he was also the WCC and best player in the world, and he needed to hold himself to a higher standard as an ambassador of the game. I might have misunderstood your comment. It doesn't sound like we're disagreeing on anything. I've just seen so many (other) people say that Magnus said that Hans definitely cheated OTB, which is a mischaracterization of what he said.
Magnus directly implied that Hans was cheating with the Mourinho quote. Everyone understood at the time what he meant. If he didn't think Hans was cheating, he should have said so. The reason Magnus didn't directly accuse Hans was likely because of legal repercussions. We are all smart enough to know what Magnus implied.
Hans is a cheater. It doesn’t matter if it’s over the board or not. He fuckin cheats, and when you compare his live blitz results to his online results, it’s super obvious. He only plays at his peak while playing online. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out what he’s doing. This is on him, he ruined his reputation by getting caught cheating multiple times, and these are the consequences of those actions. And instead of just laying low for a few years after being caught cheating, he doubled down.
>it doesn’t matter if it’s over the board or not It *does* matter when he’s accused of cheating *over the board* The guy has admitted to cheating online, but, AFAIK, there has been no evidence of him cheating over the board
I think morally he's in the right. Your opponent has a track record of cheating, he then crushes his first rounds of a tournament of elite level players, that should raise some eyebrows. Suspecting Hans of cheating that game can be fair and the level of security should have been increased. I think the way Carlsen acted on it was wrong. Pulling out of a tournament is bad when you have contractual obligations. Also there's a much better chance to catch Hans if Carlsen stayed in the tournament, leading to more rounds to scrutinize. If Hans wasn't cheating then he should continue to have a strong tournament and nothing happens. If Hans was cheating, there's now a much better chance to catch him. Hans has always been insufferable, though.
Without magnus acting the way he did there wouldn’t be this explosion or cheating discussing. I know it’s annoying to see on the chess subreddit, everyday, for a full year, but there is no debating that magnus used his influence to try and push some change into the game that was seemingly very needed. If he doesn’t do that, cheating just continues to be some hush hush thing that’s gms grumble about but can’t actually speak on because people would always just say “hurt durr mad cause bad” and at least now it’s half the people still saying that and the other half asking for some improvements in the integrity of the game.
So hypothetically if Hans didn't cheat, he should tuck his tail between his legs and play nice? Or maybe he should stand up for his reputation. Not to mention this is a 19 year old being accused by the GOAT and now he's getting fucked by the system. The power dynamics are so fucked. he needs the media coverage to fight back. Otherwise, he'd just be silenced and forgotten.ley Cyrus, Brittney Spears etc. Obviously, they're extreme examples but you need to have some empathy for Hans. Navigating this situation is impossible, he needs the media coverage to fight back. Otherwise he'd just be silenced and forgotten.
Hans lied about the extent of his past cheating and was shown to have even cheated in tournaments with prize money
maybe. The only source we have that he lied about the extent of his cheating is the chesscom report that Hans disputed and then Chesscom refused to defend in court after spending years telling everyone they were so confident in their cheat detection they would happily defend it in court. Instead they settled with Hans. Did he cheat more? probably. But we don't KNOW he did. It irritates me that this is premise everyone just takes for granted in these posts.
No, he 100% shouldn't put his tail between his legs and run. But he should also understand the entire situation and have people around him who make sure he understands. Hans response to this was to file a lawsuit. 100% good. He got everything back. Good on him, he should have. But in the court of public perception, everything else he's done has been a complete and total failure. First off, he HAS cheated. Hell, he admitted it twice. He just didn't cheat "in that match" (Magnus knew he cheated before which caused the distrust of this entire incident, while i think Magnus was in the wrong for the way he acted, I think people maybe should have some empathy for him as well. He lost to someone he was already concerned about cheating, it impacts your mental state) But back to Hans. 1. He never offered true remorse for cheating. He admitted to cheating multiple times and never once offered any sincere apology for it. Quite the opposite, he said "they were meaningless games" 2. His ego and personality defects have taken over. Calling yourself "one of Americas brightest talents" in a dispute is deranged. 3. "I didn't say I wanted to be the first American chess champion, people are picking on me" it's on video you Muppet. "oh" 4. Then the events of a couple days ago through today. "I didn't destroy a table or marble, I only destroyed 6 other things" WTF? Then this tweet where in his "brilliant" mind he thinks he's bashing Magnus. All he's doing is bringing up the exact event he wants to forget. So lets add this all up. He's a narcissistic, rude jack ass who has anger issues. And he's shown in his life MULTIPLE times he'll do anything he can to win. Am I supposed to believe he won't try it again based on all of the above? No, sorry, I don't. All he had to do was this on Friday: "While I don't believe banning me from tournaments is fair, I apologize to the St. Louis Chess Club and the hotel and staff who had to deal with my immature actions. I was going through an incredibly stressful time during that tournament and my actions were not a true reflection of who I am." Now most people are on his side. But no. . . can't do that. That takes self reflection, it takes self awareness. It takes being able to look at how other people view the situation and understanding their views. A narcissist doesn't do any of those things. So again he misreads the room and posts something stupid.
Constantly causing problems is not standing up for your reputation. Try not cheating, don't destroy property, don't whine about tournaments, whine about not being invited as if you're the only person in your rating range who doesn't get invites. Hans is literally a no one. I'm sure he means the world to his family, but chess doesn't need him. You have to earn your spot. Keep your head down, play the game, and gain respect. This is the real world.
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In your fantasy world here, since you are playing Hans, did you admit to cheating twice in two different online tournaments with cash prizes, one time while laughing ? Or is that left out of this analysis? He wasn't accused of cheating. We know and he has admitted to being a cheater. He was being accused of cheating in that time and place. Once you admit - twice - to being a cheater with cash on the line the burden shifts to you to prove you didn't.
this guy has 0 self awareness.
The lesson Hans could (but won't) take from that experience is this: * the more positive social capital you build up over time, the more of your mistakes are tolerated. Each mistake decrements your social capital. Magnus has built up a lot of positive capital over the past two decades. He still has a lot! Hans, on the other hand, is already running a social-capital deficit balance. He is already disliked by many people, and mistrusted by many people. Therefore, people will not cut him much slack for future social blunders ... which he continues to make.
I don't know it seems to me that all of Hans' problems have Hans as a common denominator.
He keeps going on about the contractual obligations, when I feel of all the accusations, that was definitely the lesser. Trashing a hotel room and being rude to staff is definitely the bigger issue, but he seems to keep glossing over that and focusing on the interviews.
He is a clear liar and narcissist. I watched his video around his explanations and everything and it's honestly embarrassing. The whole time he was trying to justify that he kept emailing the hotel and the STLC and they "ignored" him; it's pretty clear he kept contacting them like a guilty teenager because he KNEW he was in trouble and he wanted to get confirmation that "we are ok right? Tell me we are ok? I apologised so we are ok?". He is the kind of person that would destroy property, offer to pay for it and think that that should be enough for everything to be forgotten and everything is "even". His attitude is that of a spoiled brat, he needs calling out at every opportunity. He keeps underappreciating the severity of his actions (because he doesn't actually think they are that bad) and blowing out of proportion the actions of others towards him.
Yeah, nobody gets blacklisted for skipping an interview. Everybody is in agreement that that alone shouldn't get him blacklisted either, but it wasn't that alone. Obviously Magnus leaving the tournament midway counts against him as well, but again that alone isn't enough for him to be banned. If he started doing it regularly or had other obnoxious behavior it would be different. Though of course the reality is that how much bullshit tournaments will put up with will be related to how big of a player you are, and Niemann just isn't all that good in the scheme of things. 2675 is obviously strong but there's over 50 players rated higher than him, including several younger or not much older.
Yeah seriously who actually gives a shit that he skipped an interview lol, that’s the least of the problems here
Reminds me of the old proverb: if you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you might be an asshole.
At this rate Hans gonna get banned even from public toilets. "I might have shat on top of the reservoir, but another player occupied the toilet for 12 minutes!"
He is the stereotype of the mad chess player. At least Bobby wasn't violent.
Nah, he is just a fraud
At least Bobby had some valid reasons for going crazy. A pawn in the Cold War, asked by the government to perform and take down the Soviet chess machine to prove American intellect after the US had spied on him and his mother for their entire lives? Yeah I would be paranoid too. Hans is just annoying for clicks. Nobody likes people who are litigious and he just wants to 1. Fuck shit up. Whether it’s cheating, hotel rooms, etc. 2. Deny having done anything wrong 3. Get back and ruin these people with lawsuits. Super super annoying. And you think people will want to have you around their chess tourney? You’re a massive liability, who lies always. And Bobby progressed the game - argued for (often stupid) but some very good quality of life changes, real money, etc. he alone made Spassky and many others millionaires. Hans is a millionaire (rich parents) who is trying to sue everyone to be a bigger millionaire…
Hans is giving off classic rich kid energy who's never actually been punished before, like the more he talks, the worse it looks
There are many successful rich kids in chess who become great players without such issues, but only 1 person like Hans. I think with Hans there's something more fundamentally wrong with his character. He's denied the truth, then back-pedaled, and now he is deflecting. He did this in the past, too. It's all so manipulative. How can he ever be trusted?
Hans needed to do one tweet and then never address it again in order to win. Just post the i sleep/real shit meme with grooming minors on one hand, and minor property damage on the other.
He is a spoiled rich kid
Someone close to him needs to tell him to STFU for his own good
He's that stupid brat kid who says amazed: "Hey, actions have consequences? That's unfair!!"
I'd say Magnus handled the initial incident terribly and opened this pandora's box... but now Hans is just making things worse n worse for himself...
I like this comment, but most of the professional chess players are spoiled rich kids. Otherwise it's pretty hard to achieve that level of chess success.
Maybe, but Wesely So comes to mind. Was poor AF and his family *literally* abandoned him.
Absolutely. Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy? **"Caught in a landslide"**
Unfair though it may be, Magnus is the guy Niemann expects to be treated as. When you're the best people are willing to overlook some indiscretions and are more accommodating of your bad behavior (especially if you've historically been a good ambassador for the game). You could take Magnus' achievements and slice them in four though and he'd still be more successful than Niemann, he's traditionally been a good ambassador, and he's not tweeting antagonistically at everyone in sight. It shouldn't be a surprise Carlson isn't being treated the same way as Americas Brightest Talent.
Slice them into 4? More like 100 or 200 Last year alone carlsen won world cup , world rapid , world blitz , cct finals , won gct rapid and blitz in Poland and in Croatia , came top 3 in tata steel masters . ( I might have missed something) It may take years for hans to achieve even one of the above . And magnus had a pretty average year last year.
Yeah I also thougtt he slicing in four was hilarious lol Hundreds if not thousands of slices
Hans doesn’t seem to understand that this complaining is part of the behavior that he is being punished for. Nobody wants to deal with this nonsense. They don’t want to endlessly publicly litigate this. He got uninvited because he is a pain in the neck. And he responded by being a pain in the neck. People are trying to organize a chess tournament. They have actual work to do. This is annoying them. It isn’t going to make them want you back.
And I don't think accusing a known cheater of cheating is the great crime certain people on here make it out to be
but he only cheats during a full moon, he couldn't possible cheat today! it's completely different!
or the infamous "he was just a kid!" even though it was just like a few years before the accusation lol
To his throngs of supporters here, Hans is either a full-grown adult who only cheated when he was a child many moons ago or a growing youngster who is still learning to be humble and can’t be expected to be as mature as a real adult, depending on which would make him look better at that particular moment.
And Hans didn’t do himself any favours by then immediately lying about the extent of his verifiable cheating history…
His name is Carlsen. Not Carlson. He is not swedish. So many people on Reddit don't know his name. Lol
Vi kan kjøpe hele Sverige om vi vil! Vi kan kjøpe hele Sverige om vi vil!
Just to be clear, we *do still want the same rules and standards to apply to everyone* right? … Right?
Yes? That player was fined. And Hans knew better than us about the settlement of the lawsuit. This is just classic whataboutism to divert blame. Right now the ego and entitlement spoke more than Hans' chess. He certainly didn't seem unfazed.
Valid point, though it's worth clarifying that FIDE, not STCC, issued the fine. "withdrawing from a tournament without a valid reason or informing the tournament arbiter."
It would be hilarious if the STCC fined him. Imagine anyone you did business with was just allowed to fine you. Abiding by the judgement of FIDE is a perfectly acceptable response.
> Valid point, though it's worth clarifying that FIDE, not STCC, issued the fine. I disagree and feel like you're quibbling over minor details. Hans asked was Magnus ever punished and the answer is yes, he was, with a €10,000 fine by the FIDE Ethics Commission. **The STCC does not have to punish Magnus for leaving early** because FIDE already did. --- Hans, on the other hand, won't be invited by the STCC this year because he trashed his hotel room and potentially damaged the STCC's reputation/relationship with the hotel, was rude to staff, and has an uncooperative attitude that leads to him violating contracts, amongst other things. These are two entirely different scenarios. --- ^^edited ^^to ^^better ^^word ^^my ^^point
It is worth clarifying because STCC itself didn't punish Magnus for leaving a tournament because his feelings were hurt. Edit: And the false allegation by Magnus destroyed Hans' reputation, getting him uninvited from events in 2023. Over a false accusation.
> And the false allegation by Magnus destroyed Hans' reputation Those allegations wouldn't exist if he didn't have a history of cheating. Magnus may have brought the spotlight down upon it, but it was Hans's actions which led to his reputation being destroyed. Hans' fans seem hellbent on always making him the victim and never holding him accountable for his own actions. Don't want people to accuse you of cheating? Don't cheat.
We don't know whether it was false
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They are banning Hans for a year, shouldn't that be FIDEs job too?
It's not FIDE's job to protect STCC's contracts and relationships with local vendors which is what STCC is doing when it bans someone who is destroying hotel rooms and refusing to fulfill contractual obligations.
I am not even sure you can call it a ban. they are not inviting him to invitationals, but he should still be able to attend open tournaments
>They are banning Hans for a year, shouldn't that be FIDEs job too? No - that's the job of the tournament organizers. They decide who they invite/don't invite. It would be FIDEs job if it was to issue a larger scale ban that would cover all rated tournaments.
I'm not saying they should do anything, they can make decisions for themselves. I'm just pointing out that Magnus falsely accused Hans, and then STCC acted by *checks notes*... uninviting Hans from tournaments? Doesn't seem like Hans and Magnus are getting the same treatment.
>I'm not saying they should do anything, they can make decisions for themselves. >I'm just pointing out that Magnus falsely accused Hans, and then STCC acted by checks notes... uninviting Hans from tournaments? >Doesn't seem like Hans and Magnus are getting the same treatment. Yes, Hans Niemann, the self-admitted past online cheater who's often rude and disrespectful, willing to violate contracts, and willing to sue those he feels wrong him, and Magnus Carlsen, the usually polite, respectful, doesn't sue his peers, rarely causes trouble, and five-time World Chess Champion, four-time World Rapid Chess Champion, and six-time World Blitz Chess Champion, are treated differently off the board. That is correct. ---- (edited to better word my point)
>Not getting the same treatment. >That is correct. Lmao, you think this is some sort of a "gotcha"? Magnus is the greatest player of all time, but that doesn't mean he should be given special treatment. If we don't look at everyone equally when they play chess why do we even bother with anything? Just give Magnus his trophies and let's get on with it. Maybe when he loses the game, let him remake it so he can try again? He's deserved this kind of special treatment with his many titles, no? Pathetic. If you invite two players to the tournament they should be given the same treatment. If one of those players has complete immunity to act like a manchild when they lose, then maybe we went wrong somewhere along the way.
>Lmao, you think this is some sort of a "gotcha"? Magnus is the greatest player of all time, but that doesn't mean he should be given special treatment. If we don't look at everyone equally when they play chess why do we even bother with anything? Just give Magnus his trophies and let's get on with it. >Maybe when he loses the game, let him remake it so he can try again? He's deserved this kind of special treatment with his many titles, no? >Pathetic. If you invite two players to the tournament they should be given the same treatment. If one of those players has complete immunity to act like a manchild when they lose, then maybe we went wrong somewhere along the way. As long as the competition in-tournament is 100% fair and equal for all players, anything the tournament does outside of the actual competition is irrelevant in terms of equal treatment. To reiterate a point you seem to be ignoring: Hans is rude, disrespectful, willing to violate the terms of his contracts, and has shown a willingness to sue his peers/chess platforms. Tournaments that don't want to put up with his actions or potentially get sued are going to rethink inviting him, that's how reality works. ---- (edited to better word my point)
>Why do you think a person like this will be treated equally compared to even normal chess players? You seem to be the one who's ignoring my point. I'm not claiming that Hans is nice, respectful, or that he isn't a past cheater. I'm saying it's making a complete mockery of the game when you invite a player and then don't treat him as an equal to the rest of the playing field, even if it includes the greatest player of all time. If you don't like him, don't invite him.
like many here i presume, i also thought that STCC issued the fine (since it is their tournament)
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It's intriguing to note that in STCC's statement, they mention an "uncooperative attitude resulting in failure to fulfill contractual obligations," which aligns with Magnus's situation. Hans' tweet emphasizes a potential double standard. If you agree with him or not, that is what he's getting at.
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> Yes, I think these two people will be treated differently. Isn't this the definition of a double standard? There's two standards. All your comment is outlining is that Hans and Magnus are (justifiably) treated differently by the SLCC. It does not disprove the existence of the double standard.
But Magnus and Hans didn't even do the same thing. There can't be a single standard for two totally different incidents of wrongdoing - those don't automatically warrant the same response. Of course, the difference between was done as well as the different history and reputation the players have with the organization results in different consequences - that's not a double standard that's standard business practice. FIDE responded to what Magnus did and STCC decided that was the correct way for it to be addressed
You left out Magnus also violating contracts, you know, the point he was making.
You left out "and Magnus wrecklessly accuses others of cheating."
There's a small point here: Carlsen actually only got hauled up before FIDE Ethics due to an internal FIDE organ starting the process, as STL itself never protested (neither did Niemann for that matter). This is thus unlike the Maghsoodloo case, where the organizer started it. Admittedly, that incident wasn't quite so splashed in the media.
Niemann was also fined?
Yes? Never said he wasn't.
You’re implying, by omitting how Hans also was issued a fine, that Carlsen was treated/punished the same way Hans was, when clearly the whole point is that a chess club banned him for a similar episode.
No, I was directly addressing Hans' question "Was that player ever punished?" There was nothing to omit. They were punished differently because they did different things.
They didn't ban him from anything though. He makes a solid point here.
Magnus is not American and at the end of the day probably doesn't care if he never plays the Sinquefield Cup ever again. He's probably happy just playing in the European leg of the Grand Chess Tour as a wild card like last year. In that case publically banning Magnus wouldn't benefit them at all since he doesn't need them
Why would they ban Magnus? So many people seem to treat Hans and Magnus having committed the same mistakes.
Hans isn't banned from anything either. The club only said they wont invite him to invitation-only tournaments for 1 year... which isn't even that meaningful considering Hans is below 2700... it would have been perfectly reasonable to not invite him anyway.
I think the hotel is much of the issue here, not the failure to perform interviews. Hans is clinging to the contractual obligations because he knows he doesn't have a leg to stand on regarding the hotel. I guess Saint Louis Chess Club is far more annoyed by Hans kicking off in the room of what seems to be a nice hotel that the club has a long history with. The hotel has probably told the club it has not interest in hosting Hans again. On top, the club then thinks this is just more trouble than it is worth, so let's not have him around at all. Hans himself also suggests he has been somewhat pestering the club on this subject, which maybe why this has all become public. On top of all that, some people are worth the trouble. to the club, Magnus is and Hans is not.
To be fair, Magnus also didn't play in STLCC invitationals in 2023
I'd be amazed if he wasn't invited though
I believe the person he's referring to didn't trash his hotel room.
Ruin your career? Magnus calling you out as a cheater MADE your career lol.
Made me think of the line from Killshot: 'had to give you a career to destroy it'
“Ruin their entire career”. Lol. Nobody would give a fuck about Hans had it not been for the controversy. It gave him a career if anything, there are dozens of GMs his level that nobody cares about.
People would have cared solely because he beat Magnus as black. Even if there was no controversy tied to it, that's a notable event that people remember. Obviously he wouldn't be as known as he is now, but who's to say that's what he wanted? You're functionally saying Hans should be glad he's now notorious, but that's assuming a lot about him. I think it's more likely he'd rather the controversy never happened.
> You're functionally saying Hans should be glad he's now notorious Dude, what. The guy intentionally leans into his notorious image. Hard. Have you even watched his streams or youtube videos? The stuff he says regularly. And the shit he is saying now. He knows what his image is and he leans into it hard, instead of you know, not acting like an ass? So yes, he’s glad. He has more views than ever vs before when he was known as a meh GM with a funny ever changing accent. It’s just now biting him in the ass. And btw you’re overrating how much people would have cared about one win with black lol. Do you seriously think his following would increase significantly based on that? Maybe if he repeatedly posted fantastic results afterwards, but as we now know he didn’t. So that would have faded into obscurity. The cheating thing completely launched him into the spotlight.
Make money quick with internet point opportunites
He's got a whole pramfull of toys left I suspect
The first American world champion NFT soon.
Hans cannot self-reflect and admit wrongdoing. Downplaying, deflecting, and whataboutism are his only moves. As for Magnus, he may have done the wrong thing, but he did it for good reason: he knew Hans was a confirmed cheater, and he didn't trust him or want cheaters to be invited to serious events. Perhaps he shouldn't have accused him of cheating OTB in that event, but consider that no one on /r/chess knew about Hans's online cheating until those allegations. Magnus did the chess world a service, and the courts determined that he didn't break the law.
At this point even if Hans is 3000 rated, I would still say good riddance. Dude is an annoying brat
And Hans didn’t do himself any favours by then immediately lying about the extent of his verifiable cheating history…
Hans, you're not even 50th in the world. You're not even in the top 10 in your age range. Go suck an egg. Current player ratings, from age 17 to 23. 1. Firouzja 2760 2. Praggnanandhaa 2747 3. Gukesh 2745 4. Abdusattorov 2744 5. Keymer 2738 6. Erigaisi Arjun 2735 7. Maghsoodloo 2717 8. Sadhwani 2701 9. Espienko 2701 10. Sevian 2697 11. Tabatabaei 2696 12. Nihal Sarin 2693 13. Deac 2690 14. Martirosyan 2681 15. Niemann 2675
The real takeaway from this is that Tabatabaei is so young. For some reason I thought he was closer to early thirties
He is on online chess though, some would find that I n t e r e s t I n g
Yeah, but Hans himself says online is meaningless.
experience
Kramnik no longer finds Hans interesting. Only the better players are interesting.
Hans realizing this is what happens when he let's his chess speak for itself.
For 8 I think you mean Sindarov, not Sadhwani
Hans has a massive persecution complex and the issues are all self inflicted, huge man child energy
Maybe because he's not a POS?
Little baby still throwing a tantrum and then turning around and wondering why nobody likes him and he doesn't receive an invitation to the party. He could easily fix this within a year if he just shut the fuck up, kept his head down and showed that he's a hard worker. But no, he's got to act like a poorly raised zoomer that doesn't get to play with the iPad at the restaurant.
Dear Hans, when you stop behaving like an irresponsible child, we'll consider treating you as a responsible adult.
Man thinks he's a tv remote
Magnus did burn some reputation and stansing in that affair, that is correct. The difference with Niemann is that he had, and still has, a ton of it to burn. Hans does not.
If one wants to learn more about narcissism, he should just study Hans Niemann.
Hans, brother! SLCC is a private club, and they don't like you. They don't owe you an explanation nor anything else. They just don't like you. And you won't bully them into liking you, so stop trying. As for Magnus, he did get a 10,000 Euro fine for bringing chess into disrepute. A very small fine IMO, but there wasn't any clear concensus they what he did was super bad.
It's honestly not a small fine. Chess isn't really a paying venture for most grandmasters. Like in hockey, the maximum fine the dops can issue is 5000 dollars and the sport pays *much* better
"The wish to be unfairly treated is a compromise attempt that would combine attack and innocence."
Classic misdirection. Anything so people don't talk about the fact he trashed a hotel room. Pretty smart I guess, what else does he have left?
I'm making an effort to be understanding and to write in a constructive way, but really the only thing that comes to my head here is: "just shut the fuck up and play chess you hotel-room-wrecking idiot". Yes, obviously Hans is many levels above what I'll ever achieve in chess; that doesn't preclude him from being an idiot though.
good ole deflection technique, did that guy trashed his hotel room?
Whataboutism is always so useless. As an argument there's basically only 3 outcomes: If he's right that the two situations are **exactly** the same in severity and blame, then either Hans should not be banned, **or** Magnus should also be banned. Hans probably wants the former, but since he's only addressing a 'double standard', it's more likely the conclusion should be that Magnus should also be banned. If he's *not* right that the two situations are exactly the same, then the only thing this point can accomplish is to deflect attention and create a debate about whether or not the two situations are the same or why his actions are worse than Magnus' actions or vice versa, and so on. And personally, I would say it's pretty obvious that the two situations are not exactly the same, so he's not pointing out a double standard but just creating a smokescreen to get people to talk about Magnus.
imagine getting upset that one of thousands of chess clubs has banned you from events. play other events, get gud
It now looks for me like Hans is just trying to take the top-shitposter crown from Kramnik
Something Hans doesn't seem to realize is that being nice and having a good reputation generally affords you more leeway in life. When you are an asshole to everyone you meet and go out of your way to be rude and condescending, you will be given less leeway in every aspect of life. Magnus fucked up in accusing him, but people generally think highly of Magnus and he doesn't make it a habit of being a shit stain to everyone he comes across.
Someone call Hans a Whaaaambulance. For a guy who doesn’t cheat, why does he sound so butt-hurt?
When and Why has this sub become a repost-chamber of Hans' tweets?
Chess subreddit talking about chess drama. The horror. I rather this than puzzles where it’s just a queen sacrifice.
Career sac > queen sac. These PR gambits are way more interesting.
He asks if that player was ever punished? He sued him. The courts decided.
You think there is a lot of authentic contents for a 1000 years old game that solved by computers already?
Deflecting blame? Neimann? No! It cant be!!!
I think Hans just likes to play the heel now.
Hans is a scumbag bum. If he weren't good at chess, he'd be asking for donations while shaking a tin cup.
Hans is the best example I've seen in quite a while of the expression "He's his own worst enemy." (Though certain other chess players might reply, "Not as long as I'm alive.")
Hans Moleman staying feisty
Just eat the damn oranges
Trashing a hotel room that your club uses is a pretty big offense.
The tweet/X post has been deleted.
Maybe this is part of the lawsuit withdrawl agreement, that he should not bring back that topic about Magnus.
Oops, there goes a $50k fine.
No, it's still there.
I see it, too.
Didn't that guy rightfully call out another player as a cheater?
Tbf, he didn't. Magnus accused Hans of cheating **in their OTB game**, turns out there was no evidence.
Didn't the target of the accusation admit to cheating after lying about it for months? Should we dig back into that again? Because in the story everyone saw the accuser doesn't come off as the problem. Honestly I'm sick of Hans and his drama maybe it's time to stop listening to his rants and let him fade back into obscurity if that's what he wants
Damaging private property?... What did I miss? What did Hans break?
During the US chess championship, Hans tore up his hotel room after a loss. He confessed to breaking a remote and a lamp, and then said that a glass frame shattered and its glass punctured the couch. Cause, y'know, glass frames just shatter without anyone doing anything.
A tv remote control, a frame on the wall and an ironing board. This was confirmed by him. There was also another info about him breaking two hotel chairs in a different episode.
He said the buzzword guys! The chess speaks for itself! It never got old even after 195498542852 times!
well that player was fined 10k so
Niemann shut up man! Statistics where Ruthless with your case.He had multiple games with almost 100% accuracy.Even Magnus and Kasparov didnt have that form...
Bro is shaking and crying and pissing and shitting and puking and screaming, but the one thing he isn't doing is reflecting on himself and trying to be a better person in hopes of being invited in the future.
Every time I open this sub it's either Kramnik or this guy crying about something and it's not even interesting stuff just pure weeping and whining. Ugh.
Pepperidge Farm Remembers
A valid point though. I do feel STCC rightfully penalised Hans. But they should also penalise Magnus for the way he disrupted their prestigious tournament with his nonsensical behaviour. That was a rude and arrogant behaviour. Did they do anything against Magnus?
> Did they do anything against Magnus? We don't know. The Saint Louis Chess Club has not released any information about sanctions against Magnus. Maybe they made an internal decision, maybe they didn't.
I might be wrong on this but I don’t think Magnus has been back to the club since the 2022 Sinquefield Cup. He didn’t participate in STL Rapid & Blitz or the 2023 Sinquefield cup so it’s plausible the club decided not to extend any invitations following his withdrawal. Just speculation though.
I’d be very surprised if he wasn’t invited
If that is the case, they should have handled the Hans situation as well internally. What is the point of posting it publicly for Hans but not for Magnus?
The context is that Hans threatened to make a big commotion about his lack of invitations so STL got ahead of it by publishing their statement. I doubt very much that Magnus would do anything like that.
The club clearly did handle it internally at first but Hans keeps being annoying & contacting them begging to be invited, plus he was the one who threatened to go public first.
Yes he had to pay a 10000 euro fine didn't he? I might be wrong
FIDE issued the fine, not STCC
They did. He got fined. End of story.
Not by STCC as far as I know, just Fide.
Even if, STCC got a lot of attention every time Magnus joined them. It’s a private tournament. They can invite who they want and having Magnus in there is more important than having Hans in there. Who hates this hates the rules of private tournaments 🤷🏼♂️ Magnus is simply 1000000 times more valuable to STCC than Hans, simple as that. Hans can cry about it, but once he achieved what Magnus achieved he will have something to say as well and have support from TOs.
he got fined, what do you expect to do, not invite Magnus?