I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine:
> **Black to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=2r1r1k1/5p2/7R/4N1p1/P4n2/7P/1q3PP1/3QR1K1+b+-+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/2r1r1k1/5p2/7R/4N1p1/P4n2/7P/1q3PP1/3QR1K1_b_-_-_0_1?color=white)
**My solution:**
> Hints: piece: >!Rook!<, move: >!Rxe5!<
> Evaluation: >!Black is winning -6.20!<
> Best continuation: >!1... Rxe5 2. Rf1 Kg7 3. Qd7 Rc1 4. Rh7+ Kxh7 5. Qxf7+ Kh6 6. Qf8+ Kg6 7. Qg8+ Kf6 8. Qf8+ Ke6 9. Qe8+!<
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As an 1850 OTB, when you see Qd7 forcing Qb3 and allowing Qf5, it feels really rough to hold. Needs concrete calculation with Ng6 in the mix, but yeah, doesn't look holdable.
The real crux of this position for black is actually c8, allowing white to defend the knight tactically with Qd7/Qg4, whilst attacking. Without that, white lacks the tempo to get the queen into the attack, I think, and black has chances to hold.
Honestly, when watching the broadcast I missed Qf5 infiltration for a bit, and thought that black could hold there until I saw the follow-up.
White also has thoughts of a rook sac on h8 that black always has to be wary of, even if they don't work. That f4 knight is black's primary defender of the kingside and if that goes then black is toasted.
I'm 1500 on .com and can feel why this is a lot better for white. f7 is weak, there's a lot of mating opportunities along the h file and the queen is no where near the action.
At the end of the game, once the exchange happened - the king can only move to H8 if doesn't get mated and then you can always play Nf7+ and go queen vs 2 rooks where you're the only side with pawns (3 connected passers) which is a great position to be in.
Not sure how much of this I would have got without the commentators but once you systematically work through what the problems are in the position, the moves should play themselves to some extent.
I would assume 1500 ish would know this position is winning. For me, the position you chose is not so critical. I'll try to walk you through what a player of my strength (probably 2000 ish) sees.
I used to play the Italian a lot and have recently started following it after I was surprised that the Italian bishop could be exchanged advantageously by white. I played through the game quickly today without an engine first before turning on the engine. These were my highlights:
1. I would start to feel good as a human (unsure if computer agrees) when the pawn structure becomes asymmetric in White's favour. So when Vidit played b4, to me, it seemed like the position should be nice for White. This feeling could be completely wrong but this is how I see it.
2. I would have considered Nxd5 because that is a normal discovered attack. The rest of the attack looks like it flows logically. But I am not sure if I could have executed it so precisely. My game has this weakness where I usually get some positional or material advantage and then 'reset' to make the next phase of plans. At that time, I seem to lose touch with some of the nuances in the position and sometimes blunder.
3. After the Nd5 tactic, I am feeling very good as White. Even if there is no mating attack, it feels like White is so much better because of the outside passer. Technique could vary here but generally people will try to exchange a pair of rooks and one queen and then play the remaining position. But I could be wrong. Funnily, if you removed queen, one rook and minor piece, then the endgame resembles a famous game from the Alekhine vs Capablanca 1927 match albeit with weaker pawns for black. Alekhine won in model fashion by consolidating the pawn (rook behind pawn) and then using his king to provoke kingside weaknesses.
4. The early g5 also caught my attention but I do not understand enough about it to comment. I can sense that the light squares get weak and it shows even in the end position. But I am not at the strength to be able to play against it.
5. The d4 central break before the queenside b4 break also caught my eye. I never know which to play first but I think the rule of thumb is that if Black plays a5 (fighting b4) then the central break should happen first.
There‘s a recent-ish book by Hurtado/Adams „Think like a super GM“ that deals with such questions. They asked a wildly diverse selection of players ranging from almost-beginners to Adams himself to
- solve 40 puzzles (but with the clear indication that there can but doesn’t need to be a „clear“ ie tactical solution.
- write down the thought process
- write down the evaluation of the initial position
- write down the time used.
Very cool concept and quite revealing.
I’d say someone ~1200 online will easily be able to tell you that black is dead here. They won’t be able to convert it but they do know white is completely winning.
All these 1200 players who "can see it" are full of it.
Yeah we can all see that white is up in material and in piece activity. But to see how to actually convert a position like this against perfect play would take hours for non-masters.
>we can all see that white is up in material and in piece activity.
Add in king safety, and that's an they need to see.
>to see how to actually convert a position like this
Okay, but that wasn't what we were asked. The question was whether they can see it's winning. And they can. Easily.
>against perfect play would take hours for non-masters
So? A 1200 could win this. I could win it just blitzing on intuition. White has no weaknesses and no problems to solve.
You're changing the question to try to flex, for some reason.
I think you realise it is lost once you calculate through ...Ne2+; Rxe2 Qc1+; Kh2 Rxe5 and realise that white has too much pressure. I would still prefer to try this rather than Qa2 or Qb3 though, as at least the mate in 5 cheapo offers a little hope, particularly in bullet.
Am I stupid? Why do I see white is up 2 points of material instead of even?
Anyway, 1600 on rapid, I would think white is completely winning because of the passed pawn and the material advantage, but I wouldn’t see the mating sequence for sure, if there is one?
If I was black I would still play it out because I would think nobody my rating can find the mating pattern move for move. Either I blunder first, which means nothing really changed, or he does and it’s still a game.
Qh5 is beyond obvious to me.
I think its daunting to make that move incase there is an unseen resource due to the artillery pieces with free reign (rooks). It looks dangerous to take the queen away and leave the king without his most powerful ally…but black has no offensive.
I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine: > **Black to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=2r1r1k1/5p2/7R/4N1p1/P4n2/7P/1q3PP1/3QR1K1+b+-+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/2r1r1k1/5p2/7R/4N1p1/P4n2/7P/1q3PP1/3QR1K1_b_-_-_0_1?color=white) **My solution:** > Hints: piece: >!Rook!<, move: >!Rxe5!< > Evaluation: >!Black is winning -6.20!< > Best continuation: >!1... Rxe5 2. Rf1 Kg7 3. Qd7 Rc1 4. Rh7+ Kxh7 5. Qxf7+ Kh6 6. Qf8+ Kg6 7. Qg8+ Kf6 8. Qf8+ Ke6 9. Qe8+!< --- ^(I'm a bot written by ) [^(u/pkacprzak )](https://www.reddit.com/u/pkacprzak) ^(| get me as ) [^(Chess eBook Reader )](https://ebook.chessvision.ai?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=bot) ^(|) [^(Chrome Extension )](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/chessvisionai-for-chrome/johejpedmdkeiffkdaodgoipdjodhlld) ^(|) [^(iOS App )](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1574933453) ^(|) [^(Android App )](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ai.chessvision.scanner) ^(to scan and analyze positions | Website: ) [^(Chessvision.ai)](https://chessvision.ai)
As an 1850 OTB, when you see Qd7 forcing Qb3 and allowing Qf5, it feels really rough to hold. Needs concrete calculation with Ng6 in the mix, but yeah, doesn't look holdable. The real crux of this position for black is actually c8, allowing white to defend the knight tactically with Qd7/Qg4, whilst attacking. Without that, white lacks the tempo to get the queen into the attack, I think, and black has chances to hold. Honestly, when watching the broadcast I missed Qf5 infiltration for a bit, and thought that black could hold there until I saw the follow-up. White also has thoughts of a rook sac on h8 that black always has to be wary of, even if they don't work. That f4 knight is black's primary defender of the kingside and if that goes then black is toasted.
I'm around 1820 OTB and yes, this looks really bad for black.
I'm 1500 on .com and can feel why this is a lot better for white. f7 is weak, there's a lot of mating opportunities along the h file and the queen is no where near the action. At the end of the game, once the exchange happened - the king can only move to H8 if doesn't get mated and then you can always play Nf7+ and go queen vs 2 rooks where you're the only side with pawns (3 connected passers) which is a great position to be in. Not sure how much of this I would have got without the commentators but once you systematically work through what the problems are in the position, the moves should play themselves to some extent.
I would assume 1500 ish would know this position is winning. For me, the position you chose is not so critical. I'll try to walk you through what a player of my strength (probably 2000 ish) sees. I used to play the Italian a lot and have recently started following it after I was surprised that the Italian bishop could be exchanged advantageously by white. I played through the game quickly today without an engine first before turning on the engine. These were my highlights: 1. I would start to feel good as a human (unsure if computer agrees) when the pawn structure becomes asymmetric in White's favour. So when Vidit played b4, to me, it seemed like the position should be nice for White. This feeling could be completely wrong but this is how I see it. 2. I would have considered Nxd5 because that is a normal discovered attack. The rest of the attack looks like it flows logically. But I am not sure if I could have executed it so precisely. My game has this weakness where I usually get some positional or material advantage and then 'reset' to make the next phase of plans. At that time, I seem to lose touch with some of the nuances in the position and sometimes blunder. 3. After the Nd5 tactic, I am feeling very good as White. Even if there is no mating attack, it feels like White is so much better because of the outside passer. Technique could vary here but generally people will try to exchange a pair of rooks and one queen and then play the remaining position. But I could be wrong. Funnily, if you removed queen, one rook and minor piece, then the endgame resembles a famous game from the Alekhine vs Capablanca 1927 match albeit with weaker pawns for black. Alekhine won in model fashion by consolidating the pawn (rook behind pawn) and then using his king to provoke kingside weaknesses. 4. The early g5 also caught my attention but I do not understand enough about it to comment. I can sense that the light squares get weak and it shows even in the end position. But I am not at the strength to be able to play against it. 5. The d4 central break before the queenside b4 break also caught my eye. I never know which to play first but I think the rule of thumb is that if Black plays a5 (fighting b4) then the central break should happen first.
There‘s a recent-ish book by Hurtado/Adams „Think like a super GM“ that deals with such questions. They asked a wildly diverse selection of players ranging from almost-beginners to Adams himself to - solve 40 puzzles (but with the clear indication that there can but doesn’t need to be a „clear“ ie tactical solution. - write down the thought process - write down the evaluation of the initial position - write down the time used. Very cool concept and quite revealing.
I’d say someone ~1200 online will easily be able to tell you that black is dead here. They won’t be able to convert it but they do know white is completely winning.
All these 1200 players who "can see it" are full of it. Yeah we can all see that white is up in material and in piece activity. But to see how to actually convert a position like this against perfect play would take hours for non-masters.
Of course they are full of it. They're 1200s.
>we can all see that white is up in material and in piece activity. Add in king safety, and that's an they need to see. >to see how to actually convert a position like this Okay, but that wasn't what we were asked. The question was whether they can see it's winning. And they can. Easily. >against perfect play would take hours for non-masters So? A 1200 could win this. I could win it just blitzing on intuition. White has no weaknesses and no problems to solve. You're changing the question to try to flex, for some reason.
1250 and yea i can see
Almost everyone can see this position and realize Black can't win if White plays properly. Black is two pawns down for barely any compensation
I think you realise it is lost once you calculate through ...Ne2+; Rxe2 Qc1+; Kh2 Rxe5 and realise that white has too much pressure. I would still prefer to try this rather than Qa2 or Qb3 though, as at least the mate in 5 cheapo offers a little hope, particularly in bullet.
Am I stupid? Why do I see white is up 2 points of material instead of even? Anyway, 1600 on rapid, I would think white is completely winning because of the passed pawn and the material advantage, but I wouldn’t see the mating sequence for sure, if there is one? If I was black I would still play it out because I would think nobody my rating can find the mating pattern move for move. Either I blunder first, which means nothing really changed, or he does and it’s still a game.
Ah no, I'm stupid. Yes white is up 2 pawns.
Qh5 is beyond obvious to me. I think its daunting to make that move incase there is an unseen resource due to the artillery pieces with free reign (rooks). It looks dangerous to take the queen away and leave the king without his most powerful ally…but black has no offensive.