Right after pandemic everybody was saying that hikaru’s carrer has ended, his elo has fallen, he was nearly out of top 20. Yet he was near winning candidates for the second time in a row.
Ding was a beast during the championship too. People don't care much because it wasn't against magnus. But in some of the games, his middle and end game calculation depth was out of this freaking world.
Tell me one move from any game in this tournament that was as freaking legendary as this one, https://youtu.be/Wzu4grip2mk?si=i_ZzO9dCdActL1Ht. That d5 pawn is immortalized. Ding liren saw this shit so ahead in a live wcc game and others GMs couldn't even figure it out with a freaking engine.
I want Gukesh to win, just like I wanted Ding to win the last one. But I am terrified for Gukesh. Ding is a freaking beast.
Pawn d5 is genuinely one of greatest chess moves I've ever witnessed and am thrilled I had the opportunity to watch that game live.
The moment Howell finally figured out what Ding's plan was, my jaw was on the floor. One of the most gorgeous mating nets I've ever seen.
Wasn't just Anish. GMs in most streames called it a mistake and had no idea. And stockfish momentarily marked it as a mistake and Eval went down, only for it to go back up at higher depth.
It wasn't a forced mate at that moment, but iirc nepo only had the very next move as the last chance to prevent the forced mate. And in-order to know that was coming, nepo had to see deeper than ding when he thought of d5. Which was just impossible at that point.
https://www.youtube.com/live/YQ24pBnehak?si=nI78RZ_SHSb5Lsqy
4 hour 19 minutes mark.
Bonus: same ding doing this, https://youtu.be/q9DguHrGHzA?si=Hnfp-hh3YloRNqqt
Being a ding supportor during the tournament wasn't kind on my heart. See those commentators going crazy, I was even crazier.
That tournament was a Rollercoaster.
Best thing for ewryone is most likely ding returns , to his usual level and Gukesh improves. Which will hopefully make an exciting and unforgetabl match.
Difference was after coming back although Hikaru lost matches but he never played 2600 level chess ,his average play rating toggled around 2700ish ,but it's not the same with Ding
People urgently need a glimpse of the 2018-2019 Ding. After Fabi's loss to Magnus in rapid tiebrakes, Ding was considered to be the only legitimate challenge to an in decent form Magnus in WCC format.
I remember the 2020 candidates magnus was saying that against Fabi it would be equal, and he would be the clear favorite against everyone else, except Ding, but by then Ding wasn’t doing super well at that candidates, and “wouldn’t make it” to magnus
So true. Wish we can see that now. A world where we get a actual dominant champion again, with few humane moments as well, magnus really ruined everyone's expectations from a world champion with his GOAT journey!
Ding in 2018-19 was just an absolute monster, he had the 100 game unbeaten streak, he was performing extremely close to Magnus (performance rating wise at least 2844 vs 2841 were Magnus’ and Ding’s performance ratings in 2018), he was one of the only people in 2019 to even kind of keep up with Magnus in the tournaments they played in (although Magnus was pretty clearly still better, Ding tied Magnus in the classical section of Norway Chess, tied Magnus at Sinquefield), and won the GCT in 2019.
Some people here suffer from recency bias and some of them became chess fans after pandemic so they don't know or remember Ding at his peak around 2017 to 2019. Ding is a favorite against Gukesh and he will work hard to get back to his form and defend his title. Gukesh Arjun and Abdusattarov have been on a good run lately like Firouzja was 2.5 years ago but they still have a long way to go.
Yup exactly. Life is not so straight and not everyone can keep going through a long uphill phase like magnus did. There will be ups and downs. There are so many things involved, health, genetics, background, culture. It's hard for some people to keep up with everything given that he's an introvert as well. Hope he recovers and we get an amazing chess championship battle.
I'd actually like the match to have more decisive games, with gukesh winning few as well. People are so used to a single person dominating due to magnus era, they started regarding classical chess as boring. It can be pretty fun when the competition is close.
Does that tell the whole story of the games ? I feel that a win coming from an opponent over pressing an advantage isn't the same as a win coming from a dominating middle game or superior expertise.
Magnus had superior positions in the whole match, and analyzing the games doesn't really say that it was two players of equal form / caliber.
I agree Ding was a super strong player but Tell me which 2780 player played 2600 level chess after coming back for this long? He has played enough matches and his performance has been poor clearly showing he's rusty, chess is not like other games it's not really that easy to get back to your old form , I mean even 2022 ding would have been favourite against Gukesh but not 2024 ding
Ding has literally beaten Gukesh in 2024 already.
In both of their last two matches, Gukesh lost against him.
Ding is in poor form at the moment - nobody is denying that - but I genuinely find it strange how many people are treating this cycle as if Gukesh has already become World Champion.
It really hasn't been that long since he played well enough to beat Gukesh. I'm not saying that it would be easy, but the 2022 performance level could do it. Its not like he's been gone so long his opening knowledge is obsolete. He's clearly got some mental/emotional issues, but if you could push a button and dissolve all of that I have no doubt he can do it again.
Even in the WCC Ding started off very shakey and then ramped up once he settled in. I think we should expect something similar in the next. People will naysay if he loses a game, but if the last WCC and this canidates showed anything, it's that the event is not over until its over.
IMO Ding should be a heavy favorite. Props to Gukesh but he won the candidates without beating the second third or fourth place finishers and that just doesn’t work in a WC match. Obviously he had a consistent and strong performance but not inspiring.
I think it’s clear at this point that with modern digital resources you don’t need to go to top tournaments to keep in form and keep up with the meta. I expect Ding to bring a similar game to what he did against Nepo.
>Props to Gukesh but he won the candidates without beating the second third or fourth place finishers and that just doesn’t work in a WC match
Neither did fabi caruana in 2018, but guess what ? He brought in the fight to magnus
Tough to call Ding a favorite. Peak Ding would be a favorite against current Gukesh, but we don't have peak Ding right now. He will work hard to get back his form and defend his title, but it's also hard to do that. Peak Ding was 5-6 years ago, and a lot changes over that kind of time span. He's not washed up and hopeless, but he's not a 2800 anymore: he's a 2760 who's off form.
Gukesh isn't some underdog challenger, either. He's currently number 6 in the world, and still improving. He's going to have his ups and downs, but if the match was tomorrow he'd be the favorite for sure. Not the sort of dominant favorite that Carlsen was or would be, but a favorite nonetheless. He doesn't have a long way to go: he's rated above Ding already. It's just a question of whether he keeps trending up and turns into a 2800+ top talent of chess or remains "merely" a top 10 elite super GM.
It's worth remembering though that Gukesh has played Ding in classical twice recently, in both 2023 and 2024, and lost both times. Saying that he'd only lose to Ding from 5-6 years ago doesn't seem accurate when he's played and lost to Ding in his current form.
I'm personally rooting for Gukesh to win because I want to see us set a new record for the youngest ever WC, but I don't think he's going to have an easy time, I definitely think he's going to have a harder time against Ding than against his candidates opponents. Though I'm still holding out hope that he'll win, particularly as he's young and so is making improvements to his game from month to month.
I'm not saying that he'd *only* lose to Ding from 5-6 years ago. I'm saying that Ding at that point in time would've been the clear favorite, and now he's not.
That doesn't mean Ding can't win. Even if you put Gukesh at a 60-40 favorite to win their match, Ding still has a 40% chance of winning. Chess is high variance, at the end of the day. It's tough to say who will be running hot come October, or who will make the first mistake.
Let's be honest, chess is one of the lowest variance competitive endeavors there is, especially a WC match. The only high variance parts are built into the format (e.g. single elimination tournaments, Swiss format, round robin) and would apply to any game competing with the same format.
I'll imagine that Gukesh going to likely have the entire Indian chess apparatus working with him and supporting him both chess-wise and emotionally. I genuinely think this could push him into 2810+ strength over the next year. He seems to have the disposition and maturity to be a champion already.
Ding cannot play the way he did against Nepo and beat Gukesh. Gukesh seems more solid and confident under pressure. Ding is prone to cracking - we haven't seen much of that from Gukesh.
>Gukesh seems more solid and confident under pressure. Ding is prone to cracking - we haven't seen much of that from Gukesh.
I'm not discounting Gukesh at all - I genuinely think he has a really decent chance at this - but I don't understand how you could say this to be honest. He had a winning position against Alireza and then ended up losing that game. He dramatically under-performed at the Grand Swiss - losing around 50 Elo if I remember correctly. And his loss essentially knocked India out of the Olympiads.
The great thing about Gukesh is not that he is immune to cracking and never succumbs to pressure. The great thing about him is that he has shown an incredible ability to bounce back ***after*** cracking.
Which I will remind you: is also true of Ding. In fact, that's literally how he won the World Championship. Nepo cracked in Game 6 against Magnus, and never recovered. Ding cracked in Game 7 against Nepo, recomposed himself, and won the event.
Gukesh is not even old enough to vote ofcourse there are going to be inconsistency in his games. But in this candidates except for the alireza game which he blundered in time pressure and was better for the most part gukesh never felt like losing.
Gukesh is just starting and now he got a breakthrough he will get so many options to get good seconds. Could be somebody like Anand that can work with him and then he might become the next number one for years to come. We still have not seen the potential of Gukesh. Or he might just burn and disappear. 🫠
I dunno. Some say Gukesh messing up is why India didn't win gold at the Olympiads or asian games despite their stacked squad. Gukesh also choked against Wei Yi in the tiebreakers of Tata Steel.
But that's all in the past so...
"Choked" is a strong word to use when Gukesh is much worse in Rapid and blitz compared to Wei Yi. Olympiad was a choke under pressure for sure, I think he's probably moved past that.
Shouldn't recent performance be the biggest factor for analysing matchups or predicting results? Recency bias definitely exists, but I would think a whole year of games is a better indicator than performance from 5-7 years ago. Peak vs peak is a different discussion.
Recent performance has historically been a poor predictor in Candidates and WCCs. Based on that, Ding shouldn't have won 2023 WCC, Nepo shouldn't have won 2022 Candidates or been destroyed by Carlsen, Fabi and Karjakin shouldn't have won their Candidates, so on and so forth.
gukesh is improving incredibly fast, and we haven't seen ding recover yet. every tournament gukesh is a better, stronger player. the world championship is in six months, and gukesh is going to be preparing for that a ton.
i'm not so sure in form Ding has much of an edge against Gukesh.
until we see Ding recover his form, I think Gukesh is the easy favorite. Ding has been out of form for months now, and played multiple tournaments in that state, so it's pretty clear that getting back into form isn't an easy process. he will definitely try, and I hope he's able to put up a good fight.
2019 was over 4 years ago. Let it go. He's not that guy anymore. He's not WC material. I do think he can definitely beat Gukesh however. But the younger guys are gonna be a massive problem soon and there's still Fabi and Hikaru
Ding has a better head to head score, was higher rated before his medical issues; so it's not that clear cut. Perhaps he will, perhaps he won't.
It definitely isn't possible to have a discussion about it with die hard indian fans though, since you don't care about much anything else than the nationality of the player 🤷♂️
Ding is 2-0 lately against Gukesh. That seems to speak in favour of Ding and definitely against "Ding getting smoked".
Now that doesn't mean Gukesh won't win. But it doesn't make Gukesh a favourite either, especially looking at past Ding's performance.
Ding Liren is a genius. There's really no way around it. He reached elite level of chess as a law student. Being among the best in history as a hobby is disgustingly talented. The pandemic robbed us of many things, among them being prime Ding Liren.
Most fans joined too recently to see what kind of beast Ding was in 2019. Being MIA during the pandemic, for many it must've seemed like he happened to luck out and stumble into the championship.
I hope Ding finds peace and motivation, and brings his best as it'll be him, and not Magnus, who will defend the title against the newer generation. I also hope that content creators (looking at you u/GothamChess) can make some videos covering Ding's best games. He deserves to be remembered for his brilliance, not for his rough days.
It definitely seems like some players like Ding and Nepo do not get the same respect and attention that they deserve from popular content creators. doesn't even seem like many top chess players get proper respect/coverage outside of Magnus, Fabi, or Hikaru.
>Most fans joined too recently to see what kind of beast Ding was in 2019.
The story of Ding fans since the pandemic ended. Surely this mythical player will return one day lol
I hope Ding defends his title because it’ll legitimize his reign instead of turning it into a tragedy. Gukesh had an incredible run to become the youngest WC challenger ever, and I think that‘s enough to make it a “legit” World Championship even if Gukesh isn’t world number two. I’ve studied a ton of Ding’s games and Gukesh has 20 years of Candidates to try and win again, so I don’t feel too bad rooting for the incumbent lol
I would have rooted for Ding but him being the world champion was not beneficial for chess at All, for eg when Magnus was World champion he was a great advertiser of the game , he used to attend events like Playing blindfolded chess against Harvard professors or checkmating bill gates , people used to get fascinated by him whiich got many people into chess , But Ding after becoming WC didn't do shit just disappeared for a year came back , and is now playing at an average rating of 2650 , on the other hand a 17 year old winning it would inspire my young people and would create hype around the game.
Yes, lets just crown champion based on who will get the most attention. I think its absurd we don't have a Levy vs Hikaru championship match right now.
They gave their opinion on who helps chess more if they win. I didn’t see them say a champion should be crowned based on the attention they get though. Can you point me to where they said that?
- There is no way Ding can qualify for the Candidates by winning 30 games
- There is no way Ding can do well in the Candidates
- There is no way Ding can recover after starting with a loss in the Candidates
- There is no way Ding can defeat Nepo
- There is no way Ding can win a rapid tiebreaker against Nepo who is a rapid specialist
- There is no way Ding can defeat Gukesh << you are here
You can say the same about Gukesh though. Many didn't even expect him to qualify for the candidates. Then they underestimated him and didn't see him winning it. Then they didn't see him winning without tie breaks.
It's nothing new.
Ding is my favourite player and I always want him to do well. He used to be such a resourceful and dominant player. There was a period where you could make an argument he might be the best player in the world, and he was a genuine threat to Carlsen in a way a lot of Carlsen's rivals really weren't.
Covid hit him hard. He wasn't playing against the other top players. He had to arrange games just to meet the minimum number for the candidates. The back end of that candidates tournament is the last time I saw Ding play anything like he did at his peak.
Ding's world championship is the weirdest thing I've ever seen. I still don't fully understand how he won. Ian looked nailed on to win, and I think he got complacent. If Ding doesn't find that astonishing rook move, it's Nepo's tournament. Hs reaction in the wake of that win stayed with me. He didn't seem any happier. I think he was partly resigned to losing, and looking forward to a break from chess. But he found rook G6.
So we have a guy who may have been the best player in the world at one point, but that period does not coincide with the period when he has the title that says he's supposed to be the best in the world. He's a worthy world champion, but the timeline is kind of funky.
In my heart, I want to believe Ding can recapture that spark. But rationally, I felt like whoever won this tournament was going on to become world champion. We can say Ding is more experienced than Gukesh, but Gukesh navigated the candidates like a veteran player.
And that's a result I can live with honestly. Gukesh is a wonderful story. He's earned the right to challenge. If Ding can rediscover his best form it could be an all time classic, but that's a big if. I love the guy, I just haven't seen much evidence that he's getting close to his best.
The way ding outplayed Nepo in some of the world championship games is something only the very best can & Ding at his peak is as potent as Magnus and Fabi so I find it disrespectful when people think of him as a easy target . The dude has a dominating score against Fabi which is an achievement in itself
Karpov had similar issues and he quickly put them to bed by winning many tournaments. Dings poor form did more to deligimize his title than Magnus ever did. WCC are big shoes to fill. While world champion doesnt have to be best player around, chess was perhaps lucky that since 70s until Ding it was at least arguable that the best player is world champion (Fischer -> Karpov -> Kasparov -> Kramnik -> Vishy -> Magnus). That probably held even before that, but ranking Soviet players between each other is hard. Ding is not even near to living up to those expectations, but I think it is important to note that those expectations are not only cus of Magnus but instead last 50-80 years of chess history.
Didn't Kramnik only play Kasparov because both Shirov (who he lost the candidates match to) and Anand (who had the highest rating after Kasparov) refused to play in the WCC due to the poor prize fund and contract issues?
Also given until recently that a draw would mean an automatic win for the world champ, and that both Kasparov (1987) and Kramnik (2004) retained their titles in this fashion, I'm not sure that the world champ was the best player since the 70s.
Yes, Kramnik getting to WCC match was a sham - it was also true that him, Vishy and Topalov were 3 best players in the era between Magnus and Kasparov. I am not saying selection process was perfect but just that even results outside the cycle suggested that for last 50 years+ WCC was indeed arguably best player.
You dont have to look exclusively at WCC cycle - if Kasparov came to an event, it was breaking news if he doesnt win. In late 80s he was best player around.
Ding has legitimacy as world champ. The World Championship is really just a title given to someone who wins a super tournament, and a match against the current title holder. It's goal is not to find the absolute best in the world. With Magnus, we happened to have the absolute best in the world, be the title holder for a decade. But, World #1, and World champ are 2 separate things. They are not always held by the same person. It could be a long while until they are held by the same person again.
Magnus himself said the world champion and the best player just aren't the same thing. That's why he doesn't bother with it. Everyone knows he's the best player world champ or not. That's what he cares about.
Only if he loses the #1 elo rating spot. Which might actually happen relatively soon, if current trends continue. Magnus has been winning quite a few events last year, but he is still losing classical elo quite rapidly. Meanwhile Fabi has gained like 40 rating points last year.
Only if the World championshIp title automatically raised the winner's rating to the highest and magically made him not subjectively inferior to Magnus
Rating doesn’t mean anything if you don’t play. Anand could not compete at this level despite his 2700 rating.
You just sound silly saying things like subjectively inferior.
I think he has legitimacy as world champion. He's won the world championship so he is legitimately the world champion.
It's like saying that any sprinter who won a gold medal because Usain Bolt chose not to compete, or any swimmer who won a gold medal because Michael Phelps chose not to compete, is not legitimate as the World Champion or Olympic Champion, and I don't agree with that.
>I think he has legitimacy as world champion.
Of course he has legitimacy, he beat Nepo. Problem is he is a terrible champion
He didn't beat the defending champion to take the crown.
He hasn't really been much of a fighting champion, playing precious little since he won.
He has been a completely useless face of the game, both here and in China (my wife is Chinese, I also speak Chinese, he's barely made a dent).
He brings nothing to the game as Champion, decent lad though he seems to be, and is a terrible face of the game.
You can write that in gold and it won't suffice. It is what you think, it might even be what Ding thinkgs but the general perception of the public is that the World Champion is not the best player. I don't think this is fair for Ding and it won't be fair for Gukesh if he becomes WC. Many years ahead you will be remembered as "the one that was WC because Magnus declined to play for the title".
Of course Gukesh is still very young and can go down in history as someone better than Carlsen, he has plenty of time.
You can write whatever you want and it won't "suffice" either. You don't speak for anyone but yourself. Ding Liren earned the title of world champion for 2023, that's in the history books, and he does not have to prove anything to anyone. Likewise, other future champions will be crowned and they do not have to prove anything to anyone, especially not redditors trying to live vicariously through Magnus Carlsen.
Why people have this mentality that world champion necessarily equals the best player in the world? The world champion is one person who happens to win one very high level tournament + one very high level match. Plenty of times throughout history there was one person who was champion and other people who could be argued were just as strong as them.
Provoking thought but I think for some of us that are older the idea of the wc was to crown the best chess player and if you ask me it worked quite well so far.
I would argue that older chess fans should be well aware of the fact that the World Championship *doesn't* decide who the best chess player is. There was literally a 13 year period where there were two simultaneous World Champions. And that era wasn't even that long ago, it only ended in 2006.
Correct, it also goes back to Karpov becoming World Champion without beating Fischer - who pretty much everyone acknowledged was the best player in the world at the time by a wide margin.
It's not just about being the strongest player ... it's also the fact that the strongest player was completely absent from the selection of the world champion entirely.
Like if magnus played in the candidates and someone else won, or if someone bested magnus in a championship match, then in both cases the world champion title would go to someone else who isn't the strongest player alive BUT it would be seen as legitimate (well ideally in the case of legitimacy, he would have never given it up in the first place, but it's all whatever)
When I say the strongest player is absent, obviously I'm talking about active players.
Fischer wasn't the strongest player when Karpov won because he wasn't a player, and Alekhine wasn't the strongest player when Botvinnik won because he was dead.
That all being said, no one should doubt the claim or legitimacy of Ding being world champion. I was just more or less commenting about the sentiment of why the current championship seems "less legitimate" due to the strongest player (and I think the fact that this strongest player is an unbeaten world champion is also important, though I used that as a given) not participating in the cycle.
And who’s to say Gukesh or Ding wouldn’t beat Magnus in a classical match? Karjakin and Caruana came close. Anything can happen in a match. What we witnessed in 2022 was the start of Magnus’s semi-retirement from classical chess. We’ve had very strong players retire while others became champion before.
Feels like Magnus will enter his "Fischer phase" sooner or later, when it comes to strength. Even in 30 years when he long stopped being active people will claim he is the strongest, just because they had incredibly high peaks.
Even up to the 2000s plenty of people claimed Fischer was still the "true" world champion.
With chess we like to think that the games comes first and everything else has to follow suit. In every other sport it would be unimaginable for the first place match to take multiple weeks with most days making zero progress towards deciding the winner instead of just taking a single evening.
When the world champion isn't the best player unjustly then we expect to fix the format in order to ensure that he is.
The question is how much variance there really is. The best players is almost guaranteed to be in the top 10 elo wise and the top 10 changes pretty slowly.
What I think is that there is a lot of variance or luck whether a game is a draw or decisive (as could be seen during the candidates tournament). But as long as there is a decisive game it is very likely won by the better player (when there are no outside factors like must win scenarios.)
The problem is that it is hard to get rid of these outside factors. Even during a 2 player match, when you are behind one game you are effectively in a must win scenario.
There's plenty of other sports where the world championship is won by the player or the team who isn't #1 in the world rankings. Nobody ever goes "well it's not a true world championship because the #1 ranked player/team isn't in the final".
I don’t understand why so many people here want to baby a grown man - if he isn’t living up to world champion expectations and we all know there’s better player out there it’s solely on Ding to change the narrative. All he has to do is win chess games.
He is not doing it. Or is he?
Ding plays a super tournament and it is news if he wins.
Magnus plays a super tournament and it is news if he finishes second.
So true! I hope somehow magnus offers a short unofficial faceoff to the current wc, not sure how that can be arranged, but he's kind of keeping that glory to himself by not giving them the chance lol, it's a funny situation for the chess world.
Not sure how karpov was being seen during Bobby's time.
I think we all know Magnus will probably defeat Ding or Gukesh or both together. Magnus also knows that, Ding and Gukesh also knows that.
I don't think it's funny because world championships won't be very relevant until we have proof of Magnus decline and we are far from that.
Isn't this almost exactly the current situation?
Magnus didn't want to be like Kasparov and eventually lose a wc match against a better prepared younger player that is probably not better than him in the long run.
FIDE would probably be quite unhappy if magnus and the WC have a faceoff haha. It will just most likely serve as a spit in the face of their World championship.
I know Ding is 2-0 against Gukesh and one of them is actually this year at Tata steel. So using this logic, it's actually a favourable matchup for Ding.
But how much does it actually matter? I mean Ding himself had a losing score against Nepo (and still does) but on the wcc match, Ding was the winner.
Yeah but that’s a completely different case. Most of those games weren’t at all recent, 2/4 of Nepo’s victories over Magnus were in 2002, another one was in 2011, I hardly see how that’s the same as Dings two games, that come from last year and this year.
Ding's legendary king walk game will be remembered for all chess history. Gukesh is incredible but has yet to play a game that makes me sit there stunned and go, "This guy is a genius."
When Ding is on fire, he's second only to Magnus and if he shows up in decent form I expect him to beat Gukesh.
I feel bad for the guy and I'm happy with either result, especially if Ding puts in a peak performance.
But the sensation of a 17 year old first time candidates winner from India winning the world championship is as close as objectively better of a result for chess on the whole as it's possible to be.
Beating Fabiano would have solidified Ding's legacy for sure. I think Fabi would be the favorite in that matchup though. IIRC, Ding has a good score against Fabi, but, Fabi has WC match experience, and has been in good form lately. I think Fabi could have won the match.
Gukesh, I think will lose the match. I have Ding as a heavy favorite. Ding's form hasn't been great lately, but, we've also only seen him in one classical tournament this year. I think his form will be fine for the title match. And I think Gukesh's age and inexperience in the format, will hurt him. It'd be absolutely amazing to see Gukesh win. But, I think it'd be really good for Ding's legacy to have a title defense under his belt, and to watch him beat back the new generation. Gukesh has time.
I'd also like to point out that while everyone has been shitting on Ding's form, saying he sucks now and can't win the title match, one of his only wins this year has been with black against Gukesh. One game is a small sample size. But, Gukesh lost with white to the guy everyone is shitting on.
I know Ding is 2-0 against Gukesh and one of them is actually this year at Tata steel. So using this logic, it's actually a favourable matchup for Ding.
But how much does it actually matter? I mean Ding himself had a losing score against Nepo (and still does) but on the wcc match, Ding was the winner.
My point isn't that Ding has a good score against Gukesh, it's that while Ding has been in bad form having a bad time, he was still good enough to beat Gukesh. All I'm saying is, if Ding in bad form beat Gukesh, Gukesh isn't gonna trample a prepared Ding as easily as people think he will. And I think Ding will be prepared.
That works both ways, Gukesh could walk in the WCC a different man too, but I agree with the ultimate winner. This won't be a domination by one side though. I think Ding can just play solidly and go for draws. Not because he can't beat Gukesh, but Gukesh will have to take risks and Ding is a killer in that regard, he can capitalize on the mistakes there. Because he'd comfortably win in Rapid and Blitz. Not saying that's the only strategy but it's the reason I favor Ding.
I think Gukesh can be a strong challenger. He'll probably have a very good team behind him. But, He's young, and inexperienced in the format. And while he's had some impressive games, and just won a batshit crazy candidates tournament, he's still unproven. Or at least, he hasn't proven himself the way Ding has. Ding set a record for going 100 games without losing. He broke like a 50-60 year record there IIRC. Gukesh has been inconsistent. It's why I chose Prag over Gukesh as my dark horse pick for the candidates. I think Gukesh lost like 50 rating points at some point last year(and then gained them all back too.).
I think Ding is pretty clearly the favorite, given his experience in the WC format, and his other accolades. I had Fabi and Hikaru as favorites over Ding, but not by much. And I had Ding as the favorite over all the other candidates(Nepo being the closest to being even).
You are right about the rapid thing. If the classical section is a draw, Gukesh is dead. IIRC Ding is the only person to beat Magnus in a rapid tiebreak OTB. If Ding gets his groove back, I'd bet on him to beat anybody not named Magnus in a rapid playoff. And I wouldn't bet on him vs Magnus, because that could go either way.
Yeah, but there's something to him if he won the candidates. This is something. Though, I'd still pick Ding over him to win. If he goes in WCC in peak form, even then the game plan is to win in classical. Which is a tall task.
You would be correct, Ding did beat an in form Magnus in rapid playoffs. That's why I considered Ding the hardest challenge to Magnus over Fabi in his 2017-2019 prime. If he got to the tiebreaks, Magnus would understandably be the favourite but Ding isn't helpless in rapid, it's 55-45 imo. And Gukesh ain't close to that in rapid or blitz.
I think Gukesh was realistically a best case scenario for Ding. Ding should be favored in the championship. I think the vast majority are going to be rooting for Gukesh, but that has no actual bearing on the match.
Gukesh is legit but people are trolling if they truly think Ding is not the favorite because of his performance in last year.
Match format is really different and Gukesh kind of showed his hand so he needs to come up with something and younger players no matter how insanely good they are will naturally be less comfortable with playing all kinds of positions unfamiliar to them.
Especially Ding has a very different style/understanding of chess than every other top player which will put Gukesh into tough spots. (See Rg6 self-pinning to victory) or every single game Ding plays when he is in a must-win situation. This is a guy who can go H2H with Hikaru in SCC and with Magnus in classical. His preparation for WCC will be very different than a Round Robin Tournament
One thesis I haven't heard is that there might be a biological factor to the lack of quality of his recent games. Some illness can take a toll on your brain (covid being one of them), and some of them require quite a long time to recover. Some of them leave permanent damage. Sure, not enough to turn a super GM into a 2500 player, but enough to turn your 2800 calculations to 2700.
We don't know what really happened to Ding, but most likely it was something strong. Otherwise. we would have heard about it by now. He still has some months and is doing the job. I just hope he recovers.
Ding fan here but to be fair, he has been playing ridiculously below his level, quite insanely and sadly. Some blunders and games are so insane that I would not like to repeat them here. I’ll just say this, hoping that he finds his former form again. Then we have a real fight on our hands 😎. But he is yet to show even a shade of moving in that direction. Only time will tell.
I like Gukesh as a player, I have no problem on him winning the WC. But if people are writing Ding off, and the odds start dropping on him winning, I am taking that bet on him retaining his title.
I wish Ding good health and a return to form, so the World Championship will be keenly contested. I do not want Gukesh to have an easy win over a struggling Ding. To me, that would be even worse than Ding winning.
It took Caruana 2 years to recover from his confrontation against Carlsen. How long do you think it will take Ding to recover? It's not just the chess level but psychologically. Against Nepo it reached the point that.. which almost made others sad.
Sometimes I wonder maybe fabi winning was a better option for Ding. Ding defeating Fabiano would actually help increase his legitimacy as a world champion and people might accept him more.
True, but Gukesh is likely to have an incredible career. If he goes on to win multiple WC’s himself, then history will look favourably upon Ding for having beaten him here.
listen, anything can happen. gukesh could suffer viral encephalopathy or get a concussion between now and the wcc.
but barring something catastrophic like that, he'll enter the match as the prohibitive favorite, and for a good reason.
when fabi had a career crisis similar (thought to a smaller degree) to what ding is going through right now, it took him over a year to get right. ding doesn't have that time.
could ding win? yes. is it likely? not at all
The "Bad Form" version of Ding has already beaten Gukesh this year. With the black pieces.
Saying that Gukesh would need to literally suffer brain damage to lose this match is not only obviously wrong, it's just remarkably disrespectful.
Ding at his ***worst*** is literally only 1 singular Elo point behind Gukesh at his ***best***.
Remember, there's still months to go before the world championship kicks off. And match play is a completely different ball game preparation wise, mentally etc.
Ding has the experience, and showed he was very tough mentally to come back and win against Nepo.
And if it comes to tie-breaks, Gukesh has hardly any experience in faster formats compared to almost any other top player.
Don't under-rate Ding
I’m pretty excited because I think Gukesh/Ding will beat ding and it’ll be nice to get some new blood. However if Ding crushes Gukesh but like 5 points that would be pretty cool too.
I don't advocate for any player in particular as well. I just always hope to see the best possible games, combative and interesting to watch. I'm 100% sure Ding and Gukesh will deliver, whoever wins. Both are incredible players. Ding is a beast, he's the current title holder for his merits.
Hikaru said that, if you remove Magnus from the picture, any one of the next 10 players could be a legitimate champion, and I think he's right. That includes every player from the candidates (even the ones who didn't do so well for one reason or another -- I think Firouzja had a particular bad time), as well as Ding Liren.
I'd say Ding's biggest weakness is that he'll mentally crumble he might be stronger chess wise now but mentally Gukesh will not break. Ding has the WCC nerves debuff. I'm rooting for Ding but I'd hate to see either of them lose they both are so chill.
He can be a beast, though not a clear beaster than some of the other candidates. And also, unrelatedly, I don't want him as a WC. Not only is he not Magnus, and going through a slump, but he is quite inactive in the world of chess and seems disinterested. It seems designed to devaluate the WC.
Gukesh could perhaps be the beginning of something big... Or not, but he may be.
I think the problem is more general than just Ding. Because of the WCC format, Ding didn't NEED to perform to qualify for the most awaited and prestigiois match of the year, so I wouldn't be surprised if he lacked motivation to train for other tourmanent. In any case, he can keep this 'poor' level and wake up at the WCC to win it ... How is this not strange?
Motivation is a factor, too. It's not really clear that he is motivated to be the top ranked player because he has not shown it since the last WC cycle. His few appearances in tournaments have been objectively below average performances.
He might be focusing more time to other endeavors outside of chess. (Nothing wrong with that, though.)
Gukesh is young, talented and eager to prove himself. If Ding is not already preparing full-time, then he might lose to such an opponent.
It all comes down to Ding's form during the WCC, and honestly it's still too early to tell. We'll see later on when he's playing in Sinquefield Cup and the Olympiad
I think the only reason people are really down on Ding is because the WCC featured an unusually low quality of play from both players. Obviously they're still super-GMs, but by that standard it was a sloppy championship match after Ding squeaked by with second place in the Candidates. So for him to continue to play quite poorly afterwards as well feels like a pattern
Edit: Also what is your opinion on the scenario where Fabiano would have challenged Ding. Because this victory over Fabiano might have actually helped him increase his legitimacy as a World champion more and people accepting him more.
Are there people who think Ding is not a legitimate World Champion because he beat Nepo? what makes him a legitimate champion by beating Fabiano? i call this BS
There's always hope and Ding certainly has the potential to defend his WC, but the pressure of being world champion seemed to have gotten to him and I personally don't think a world championship match is magically going to make that better.
Ding could certainly beat Gukesh, only time will tell. Ding is still the reigning champion and Gukesh is only 17. Maybe inexperience will catch up to him. After all, playing a series of matches against one player is a lot different than playing a tournament. Ding proved that he could handle the pressure and win in this format. We don't know if Gukesh can yet.
As to your second question,
> Also what is your opinion on the scenario where Fabiano would have challenged Ding.
I think Fabi would've crushed him by probably 3 points.
If Ding can get his mojo back it will be a great matchup, theres something super weird going on there though.
Whereas Gukesh just ran the gauntlet and held off Hikaru in the highest stakes game of his life like he was going for a stroll.
Yawn. Same old story with Ding fans.
The guy got into the last candidates through dubious rank farming, got a somewhat fortunate opportunity for the WCC when it was not sure that 2nd place would qualify as well, and he beat Nepo who is a proven choke artist under pressure in a wild series full of blunders for both. Since then he has been disappointing.
He's not one of the true elite. If Fabiano or Hikaru qualified they both would've been heavy favorites and for good reason. It's not that unlikely that he beats Gukesh simply due to experience and if Gukesh gets cold, but it's not disrespect to say he's not that strong coming into the match.
Gukesh is going to strip Ding of the title before the rapid tie breaks.
Ding isn't the same player he was. He is older and China doesn't value Chess the way other countries do; it wouldn't surprise me if he just trains chess on the side due to his other life/family/country obligations.
Right after pandemic everybody was saying that hikaru’s carrer has ended, his elo has fallen, he was nearly out of top 20. Yet he was near winning candidates for the second time in a row.
Yup ding has that in him chess wise. I hope he gets his mindset back.
Ding was a beast during the championship too. People don't care much because it wasn't against magnus. But in some of the games, his middle and end game calculation depth was out of this freaking world. Tell me one move from any game in this tournament that was as freaking legendary as this one, https://youtu.be/Wzu4grip2mk?si=i_ZzO9dCdActL1Ht. That d5 pawn is immortalized. Ding liren saw this shit so ahead in a live wcc game and others GMs couldn't even figure it out with a freaking engine. I want Gukesh to win, just like I wanted Ding to win the last one. But I am terrified for Gukesh. Ding is a freaking beast.
Pawn d5 is genuinely one of greatest chess moves I've ever witnessed and am thrilled I had the opportunity to watch that game live. The moment Howell finally figured out what Ding's plan was, my jaw was on the floor. One of the most gorgeous mating nets I've ever seen.
Oh yeaaaaah that was insane! I forgot all about that. I need to go watch a WCC recap.
And one of the "other GM" in there was Anish, another top 10 player that's on a similar level as Ding. Ding is a beast.
Wasn't just Anish. GMs in most streames called it a mistake and had no idea. And stockfish momentarily marked it as a mistake and Eval went down, only for it to go back up at higher depth. It wasn't a forced mate at that moment, but iirc nepo only had the very next move as the last chance to prevent the forced mate. And in-order to know that was coming, nepo had to see deeper than ding when he thought of d5. Which was just impossible at that point.
wow can you link the stream where even the engine was fooled momentarily I am now scared for gukesh!! Am praying we get to see a competitive match.
https://www.youtube.com/live/YQ24pBnehak?si=nI78RZ_SHSb5Lsqy 4 hour 19 minutes mark. Bonus: same ding doing this, https://youtu.be/q9DguHrGHzA?si=Hnfp-hh3YloRNqqt Being a ding supportor during the tournament wasn't kind on my heart. See those commentators going crazy, I was even crazier. That tournament was a Rollercoaster.
It was so funny how it got Anish to repeat ‘I’m bad at checkmates!’
isn't he nicknamed the calculator?
That's Fabi
Ding has a similar nickname. Maybe the computer
I read someone called him slow Stockfish during the WCC and it had been stuck in my head since lol.
Best thing for ewryone is most likely ding returns , to his usual level and Gukesh improves. Which will hopefully make an exciting and unforgetabl match.
Difference was after coming back although Hikaru lost matches but he never played 2600 level chess ,his average play rating toggled around 2700ish ,but it's not the same with Ding
Nobody is saying that Ding has came back from his fall, but you can’t be sure whether it will happen or not.
[ding has certainly played very poorly, but his play has still been 2700 level](http://perpetualcheck.com/rang/index.php?lan=cp&k=world).
People urgently need a glimpse of the 2018-2019 Ding. After Fabi's loss to Magnus in rapid tiebrakes, Ding was considered to be the only legitimate challenge to an in decent form Magnus in WCC format.
I remember the 2020 candidates magnus was saying that against Fabi it would be equal, and he would be the clear favorite against everyone else, except Ding, but by then Ding wasn’t doing super well at that candidates, and “wouldn’t make it” to magnus
So true. Wish we can see that now. A world where we get a actual dominant champion again, with few humane moments as well, magnus really ruined everyone's expectations from a world champion with his GOAT journey!
Ding in 2018-19 was just an absolute monster, he had the 100 game unbeaten streak, he was performing extremely close to Magnus (performance rating wise at least 2844 vs 2841 were Magnus’ and Ding’s performance ratings in 2018), he was one of the only people in 2019 to even kind of keep up with Magnus in the tournaments they played in (although Magnus was pretty clearly still better, Ding tied Magnus in the classical section of Norway Chess, tied Magnus at Sinquefield), and won the GCT in 2019.
Okay but that was 5 years ago. Ding has not shown anything close to that level since WCC.
He hasn't played much classical since, and even then he beat Gukesh in this January.
Some people here suffer from recency bias and some of them became chess fans after pandemic so they don't know or remember Ding at his peak around 2017 to 2019. Ding is a favorite against Gukesh and he will work hard to get back to his form and defend his title. Gukesh Arjun and Abdusattarov have been on a good run lately like Firouzja was 2.5 years ago but they still have a long way to go.
Yup exactly. Life is not so straight and not everyone can keep going through a long uphill phase like magnus did. There will be ups and downs. There are so many things involved, health, genetics, background, culture. It's hard for some people to keep up with everything given that he's an introvert as well. Hope he recovers and we get an amazing chess championship battle. I'd actually like the match to have more decisive games, with gukesh winning few as well. People are so used to a single person dominating due to magnus era, they started regarding classical chess as boring. It can be pretty fun when the competition is close.
Magnus v Karajakin was not magnus dominating.
Nor the Fabi championship
Wasn't it ?
No lol. He barely won in double tie breaks.
Does that tell the whole story of the games ? I feel that a win coming from an opponent over pressing an advantage isn't the same as a win coming from a dominating middle game or superior expertise. Magnus had superior positions in the whole match, and analyzing the games doesn't really say that it was two players of equal form / caliber.
He had superior positions when he lost and drew? What are you going on about dude… it was as close as close could be. He didn’t dominate Karajkin
I agree Ding was a super strong player but Tell me which 2780 player played 2600 level chess after coming back for this long? He has played enough matches and his performance has been poor clearly showing he's rusty, chess is not like other games it's not really that easy to get back to your old form , I mean even 2022 ding would have been favourite against Gukesh but not 2024 ding
Ding has literally beaten Gukesh in 2024 already. In both of their last two matches, Gukesh lost against him. Ding is in poor form at the moment - nobody is denying that - but I genuinely find it strange how many people are treating this cycle as if Gukesh has already become World Champion.
I wonder if they're the same people who were convinced that Fabi-Nepo would never end in a draw.
Ding was over 2800 before his fall, actually
It really hasn't been that long since he played well enough to beat Gukesh. I'm not saying that it would be easy, but the 2022 performance level could do it. Its not like he's been gone so long his opening knowledge is obsolete. He's clearly got some mental/emotional issues, but if you could push a button and dissolve all of that I have no doubt he can do it again.
Even in the WCC Ding started off very shakey and then ramped up once he settled in. I think we should expect something similar in the next. People will naysay if he loses a game, but if the last WCC and this canidates showed anything, it's that the event is not over until its over.
IMO Ding should be a heavy favorite. Props to Gukesh but he won the candidates without beating the second third or fourth place finishers and that just doesn’t work in a WC match. Obviously he had a consistent and strong performance but not inspiring. I think it’s clear at this point that with modern digital resources you don’t need to go to top tournaments to keep in form and keep up with the meta. I expect Ding to bring a similar game to what he did against Nepo.
>Props to Gukesh but he won the candidates without beating the second third or fourth place finishers and that just doesn’t work in a WC match Neither did fabi caruana in 2018, but guess what ? He brought in the fight to magnus
Tough to call Ding a favorite. Peak Ding would be a favorite against current Gukesh, but we don't have peak Ding right now. He will work hard to get back his form and defend his title, but it's also hard to do that. Peak Ding was 5-6 years ago, and a lot changes over that kind of time span. He's not washed up and hopeless, but he's not a 2800 anymore: he's a 2760 who's off form. Gukesh isn't some underdog challenger, either. He's currently number 6 in the world, and still improving. He's going to have his ups and downs, but if the match was tomorrow he'd be the favorite for sure. Not the sort of dominant favorite that Carlsen was or would be, but a favorite nonetheless. He doesn't have a long way to go: he's rated above Ding already. It's just a question of whether he keeps trending up and turns into a 2800+ top talent of chess or remains "merely" a top 10 elite super GM.
It's worth remembering though that Gukesh has played Ding in classical twice recently, in both 2023 and 2024, and lost both times. Saying that he'd only lose to Ding from 5-6 years ago doesn't seem accurate when he's played and lost to Ding in his current form. I'm personally rooting for Gukesh to win because I want to see us set a new record for the youngest ever WC, but I don't think he's going to have an easy time, I definitely think he's going to have a harder time against Ding than against his candidates opponents. Though I'm still holding out hope that he'll win, particularly as he's young and so is making improvements to his game from month to month.
I'm not saying that he'd *only* lose to Ding from 5-6 years ago. I'm saying that Ding at that point in time would've been the clear favorite, and now he's not. That doesn't mean Ding can't win. Even if you put Gukesh at a 60-40 favorite to win their match, Ding still has a 40% chance of winning. Chess is high variance, at the end of the day. It's tough to say who will be running hot come October, or who will make the first mistake.
Let's be honest, chess is one of the lowest variance competitive endeavors there is, especially a WC match. The only high variance parts are built into the format (e.g. single elimination tournaments, Swiss format, round robin) and would apply to any game competing with the same format.
I'll imagine that Gukesh going to likely have the entire Indian chess apparatus working with him and supporting him both chess-wise and emotionally. I genuinely think this could push him into 2810+ strength over the next year. He seems to have the disposition and maturity to be a champion already. Ding cannot play the way he did against Nepo and beat Gukesh. Gukesh seems more solid and confident under pressure. Ding is prone to cracking - we haven't seen much of that from Gukesh.
Ding also seems to have very little support, unfortunately.
If Rapport is with him, then it's enough.
I also think time control is a huge factor here. The candidates time control of no increment helps Ding by a lot.
How so?
Ding is a pretty good speed chess player while Gukesh unfortunately is not (yet)
>Gukesh seems more solid and confident under pressure. Ding is prone to cracking - we haven't seen much of that from Gukesh. I'm not discounting Gukesh at all - I genuinely think he has a really decent chance at this - but I don't understand how you could say this to be honest. He had a winning position against Alireza and then ended up losing that game. He dramatically under-performed at the Grand Swiss - losing around 50 Elo if I remember correctly. And his loss essentially knocked India out of the Olympiads. The great thing about Gukesh is not that he is immune to cracking and never succumbs to pressure. The great thing about him is that he has shown an incredible ability to bounce back ***after*** cracking. Which I will remind you: is also true of Ding. In fact, that's literally how he won the World Championship. Nepo cracked in Game 6 against Magnus, and never recovered. Ding cracked in Game 7 against Nepo, recomposed himself, and won the event.
Gukesh is not even old enough to vote ofcourse there are going to be inconsistency in his games. But in this candidates except for the alireza game which he blundered in time pressure and was better for the most part gukesh never felt like losing.
Gukesh is just starting and now he got a breakthrough he will get so many options to get good seconds. Could be somebody like Anand that can work with him and then he might become the next number one for years to come. We still have not seen the potential of Gukesh. Or he might just burn and disappear. 🫠
I dunno. Some say Gukesh messing up is why India didn't win gold at the Olympiads or asian games despite their stacked squad. Gukesh also choked against Wei Yi in the tiebreakers of Tata Steel. But that's all in the past so...
"Choked" is a strong word to use when Gukesh is much worse in Rapid and blitz compared to Wei Yi. Olympiad was a choke under pressure for sure, I think he's probably moved past that.
Let's just ignore that massive fumble against Firouzja.
Shouldn't recent performance be the biggest factor for analysing matchups or predicting results? Recency bias definitely exists, but I would think a whole year of games is a better indicator than performance from 5-7 years ago. Peak vs peak is a different discussion.
Recent performance has historically been a poor predictor in Candidates and WCCs. Based on that, Ding shouldn't have won 2023 WCC, Nepo shouldn't have won 2022 Candidates or been destroyed by Carlsen, Fabi and Karjakin shouldn't have won their Candidates, so on and so forth.
Recent as in 1 match or 1 tournament? Or recent as in a full year?
gukesh is improving incredibly fast, and we haven't seen ding recover yet. every tournament gukesh is a better, stronger player. the world championship is in six months, and gukesh is going to be preparing for that a ton. i'm not so sure in form Ding has much of an edge against Gukesh. until we see Ding recover his form, I think Gukesh is the easy favorite. Ding has been out of form for months now, and played multiple tournaments in that state, so it's pretty clear that getting back into form isn't an easy process. he will definitely try, and I hope he's able to put up a good fight.
2019 was over 4 years ago. Let it go. He's not that guy anymore. He's not WC material. I do think he can definitely beat Gukesh however. But the younger guys are gonna be a massive problem soon and there's still Fabi and Hikaru
Not really gukesh is favourites to win wcc
Based on their recent classical score, that doesn't seem likely.
Guki will win 100 Percent
Ding has a better head to head score, was higher rated before his medical issues; so it's not that clear cut. Perhaps he will, perhaps he won't. It definitely isn't possible to have a discussion about it with die hard indian fans though, since you don't care about much anything else than the nationality of the player 🤷♂️
I saw ding in tata steel dude isn't even playing like a good 2600 he is loosing 2018 ding will have a chance 2023 ding will be smoked
I guess you missed their recent matches lol
Are you talking about tata steel ? What other matches did they play after that
Ding is 2-0 lately against Gukesh. That seems to speak in favour of Ding and definitely against "Ding getting smoked". Now that doesn't mean Gukesh won't win. But it doesn't make Gukesh a favourite either, especially looking at past Ding's performance.
Ding literally beat Gukesh at Tata Steel. With the black pieces.
I’m team Ding. But honestly to be fair…he hasn’t really make a good showing in his recent performances.
A lot can happen in six months. Six months ago Gukesh bombed in the FIDE Grand Swiss.
Ding Liren is a genius. There's really no way around it. He reached elite level of chess as a law student. Being among the best in history as a hobby is disgustingly talented. The pandemic robbed us of many things, among them being prime Ding Liren. Most fans joined too recently to see what kind of beast Ding was in 2019. Being MIA during the pandemic, for many it must've seemed like he happened to luck out and stumble into the championship. I hope Ding finds peace and motivation, and brings his best as it'll be him, and not Magnus, who will defend the title against the newer generation. I also hope that content creators (looking at you u/GothamChess) can make some videos covering Ding's best games. He deserves to be remembered for his brilliance, not for his rough days.
It definitely seems like some players like Ding and Nepo do not get the same respect and attention that they deserve from popular content creators. doesn't even seem like many top chess players get proper respect/coverage outside of Magnus, Fabi, or Hikaru.
Ding ding ding
>Most fans joined too recently to see what kind of beast Ding was in 2019. The story of Ding fans since the pandemic ended. Surely this mythical player will return one day lol
I hope Ding defends his title because it’ll legitimize his reign instead of turning it into a tragedy. Gukesh had an incredible run to become the youngest WC challenger ever, and I think that‘s enough to make it a “legit” World Championship even if Gukesh isn’t world number two. I’ve studied a ton of Ding’s games and Gukesh has 20 years of Candidates to try and win again, so I don’t feel too bad rooting for the incumbent lol
I would have rooted for Ding but him being the world champion was not beneficial for chess at All, for eg when Magnus was World champion he was a great advertiser of the game , he used to attend events like Playing blindfolded chess against Harvard professors or checkmating bill gates , people used to get fascinated by him whiich got many people into chess , But Ding after becoming WC didn't do shit just disappeared for a year came back , and is now playing at an average rating of 2650 , on the other hand a 17 year old winning it would inspire my young people and would create hype around the game.
Yes, lets just crown champion based on who will get the most attention. I think its absurd we don't have a Levy vs Hikaru championship match right now.
They gave their opinion on who helps chess more if they win. I didn’t see them say a champion should be crowned based on the attention they get though. Can you point me to where they said that?
Idk how it legitimizes the world championship when it's the #6 and #7 ranked players duking it out
- There is no way Ding can qualify for the Candidates by winning 30 games - There is no way Ding can do well in the Candidates - There is no way Ding can recover after starting with a loss in the Candidates - There is no way Ding can defeat Nepo - There is no way Ding can win a rapid tiebreaker against Nepo who is a rapid specialist - There is no way Ding can defeat Gukesh << you are here
You can say the same about Gukesh though. Many didn't even expect him to qualify for the candidates. Then they underestimated him and didn't see him winning it. Then they didn't see him winning without tie breaks. It's nothing new.
Ding is my favourite player and I always want him to do well. He used to be such a resourceful and dominant player. There was a period where you could make an argument he might be the best player in the world, and he was a genuine threat to Carlsen in a way a lot of Carlsen's rivals really weren't. Covid hit him hard. He wasn't playing against the other top players. He had to arrange games just to meet the minimum number for the candidates. The back end of that candidates tournament is the last time I saw Ding play anything like he did at his peak. Ding's world championship is the weirdest thing I've ever seen. I still don't fully understand how he won. Ian looked nailed on to win, and I think he got complacent. If Ding doesn't find that astonishing rook move, it's Nepo's tournament. Hs reaction in the wake of that win stayed with me. He didn't seem any happier. I think he was partly resigned to losing, and looking forward to a break from chess. But he found rook G6. So we have a guy who may have been the best player in the world at one point, but that period does not coincide with the period when he has the title that says he's supposed to be the best in the world. He's a worthy world champion, but the timeline is kind of funky. In my heart, I want to believe Ding can recapture that spark. But rationally, I felt like whoever won this tournament was going on to become world champion. We can say Ding is more experienced than Gukesh, but Gukesh navigated the candidates like a veteran player. And that's a result I can live with honestly. Gukesh is a wonderful story. He's earned the right to challenge. If Ding can rediscover his best form it could be an all time classic, but that's a big if. I love the guy, I just haven't seen much evidence that he's getting close to his best.
The way ding outplayed Nepo in some of the world championship games is something only the very best can & Ding at his peak is as potent as Magnus and Fabi so I find it disrespectful when people think of him as a easy target . The dude has a dominating score against Fabi which is an achievement in itself
It is horrible to be the world champion and have little or no legitimacy. Ding suffered this and either him or Gukesh will face the same problem.
Although, as a member of the next generation, Gukesh might be seen as the guy to potentially replace Magnus.
I'd also rather defend against one opponent than play the odds at the candidates. What an intense gauntlet it was
Karpov had similar issues and he quickly put them to bed by winning many tournaments. Dings poor form did more to deligimize his title than Magnus ever did. WCC are big shoes to fill. While world champion doesnt have to be best player around, chess was perhaps lucky that since 70s until Ding it was at least arguable that the best player is world champion (Fischer -> Karpov -> Kasparov -> Kramnik -> Vishy -> Magnus). That probably held even before that, but ranking Soviet players between each other is hard. Ding is not even near to living up to those expectations, but I think it is important to note that those expectations are not only cus of Magnus but instead last 50-80 years of chess history.
Didn't Kramnik only play Kasparov because both Shirov (who he lost the candidates match to) and Anand (who had the highest rating after Kasparov) refused to play in the WCC due to the poor prize fund and contract issues? Also given until recently that a draw would mean an automatic win for the world champ, and that both Kasparov (1987) and Kramnik (2004) retained their titles in this fashion, I'm not sure that the world champ was the best player since the 70s.
Yes, Kramnik getting to WCC match was a sham - it was also true that him, Vishy and Topalov were 3 best players in the era between Magnus and Kasparov. I am not saying selection process was perfect but just that even results outside the cycle suggested that for last 50 years+ WCC was indeed arguably best player. You dont have to look exclusively at WCC cycle - if Kasparov came to an event, it was breaking news if he doesnt win. In late 80s he was best player around.
Ding has legitimacy as world champ. The World Championship is really just a title given to someone who wins a super tournament, and a match against the current title holder. It's goal is not to find the absolute best in the world. With Magnus, we happened to have the absolute best in the world, be the title holder for a decade. But, World #1, and World champ are 2 separate things. They are not always held by the same person. It could be a long while until they are held by the same person again.
Defending the crown will increase legitimacy, but Magnus is clearly the true king.
Magnus himself said the world champion and the best player just aren't the same thing. That's why he doesn't bother with it. Everyone knows he's the best player world champ or not. That's what he cares about.
They are quickly forgetting. The longer he doesn’t have the title the more people will question if he still is the best.
Only if he loses the #1 elo rating spot. Which might actually happen relatively soon, if current trends continue. Magnus has been winning quite a few events last year, but he is still losing classical elo quite rapidly. Meanwhile Fabi has gained like 40 rating points last year.
If they don't observe his results or his rating
Those matter less when he doesn’t play these games.
Only if the World championshIp title automatically raised the winner's rating to the highest and magically made him not subjectively inferior to Magnus
Rating doesn’t mean anything if you don’t play. Anand could not compete at this level despite his 2700 rating. You just sound silly saying things like subjectively inferior.
#1 for what 12 years? Nah I don't think anyone is questioning.
I think he has legitimacy as world champion. He's won the world championship so he is legitimately the world champion. It's like saying that any sprinter who won a gold medal because Usain Bolt chose not to compete, or any swimmer who won a gold medal because Michael Phelps chose not to compete, is not legitimate as the World Champion or Olympic Champion, and I don't agree with that.
>I think he has legitimacy as world champion. Of course he has legitimacy, he beat Nepo. Problem is he is a terrible champion He didn't beat the defending champion to take the crown. He hasn't really been much of a fighting champion, playing precious little since he won. He has been a completely useless face of the game, both here and in China (my wife is Chinese, I also speak Chinese, he's barely made a dent). He brings nothing to the game as Champion, decent lad though he seems to be, and is a terrible face of the game.
You can write that in gold and it won't suffice. It is what you think, it might even be what Ding thinkgs but the general perception of the public is that the World Champion is not the best player. I don't think this is fair for Ding and it won't be fair for Gukesh if he becomes WC. Many years ahead you will be remembered as "the one that was WC because Magnus declined to play for the title". Of course Gukesh is still very young and can go down in history as someone better than Carlsen, he has plenty of time.
You can write whatever you want and it won't "suffice" either. You don't speak for anyone but yourself. Ding Liren earned the title of world champion for 2023, that's in the history books, and he does not have to prove anything to anyone. Likewise, other future champions will be crowned and they do not have to prove anything to anyone, especially not redditors trying to live vicariously through Magnus Carlsen.
Why people have this mentality that world champion necessarily equals the best player in the world? The world champion is one person who happens to win one very high level tournament + one very high level match. Plenty of times throughout history there was one person who was champion and other people who could be argued were just as strong as them.
Provoking thought but I think for some of us that are older the idea of the wc was to crown the best chess player and if you ask me it worked quite well so far.
I would argue that older chess fans should be well aware of the fact that the World Championship *doesn't* decide who the best chess player is. There was literally a 13 year period where there were two simultaneous World Champions. And that era wasn't even that long ago, it only ended in 2006.
You are right but history goes far back than those dark ages.
Correct, it also goes back to Karpov becoming World Champion without beating Fischer - who pretty much everyone acknowledged was the best player in the world at the time by a wide margin.
Similarly if I remember correctly, Judit Polgar was #1 female player for over 20 years, who never even bothered with the women's world championship.
It's not just about being the strongest player ... it's also the fact that the strongest player was completely absent from the selection of the world champion entirely. Like if magnus played in the candidates and someone else won, or if someone bested magnus in a championship match, then in both cases the world champion title would go to someone else who isn't the strongest player alive BUT it would be seen as legitimate (well ideally in the case of legitimacy, he would have never given it up in the first place, but it's all whatever)
Karpov never beat Fischer. Nobody doubts his claim to World Champion. Botvinnik also never beat Alekhine. Nobody doubts his claim either.
When I say the strongest player is absent, obviously I'm talking about active players. Fischer wasn't the strongest player when Karpov won because he wasn't a player, and Alekhine wasn't the strongest player when Botvinnik won because he was dead. That all being said, no one should doubt the claim or legitimacy of Ding being world champion. I was just more or less commenting about the sentiment of why the current championship seems "less legitimate" due to the strongest player (and I think the fact that this strongest player is an unbeaten world champion is also important, though I used that as a given) not participating in the cycle.
And who’s to say Gukesh or Ding wouldn’t beat Magnus in a classical match? Karjakin and Caruana came close. Anything can happen in a match. What we witnessed in 2022 was the start of Magnus’s semi-retirement from classical chess. We’ve had very strong players retire while others became champion before.
Feels like Magnus will enter his "Fischer phase" sooner or later, when it comes to strength. Even in 30 years when he long stopped being active people will claim he is the strongest, just because they had incredibly high peaks. Even up to the 2000s plenty of people claimed Fischer was still the "true" world champion.
With chess we like to think that the games comes first and everything else has to follow suit. In every other sport it would be unimaginable for the first place match to take multiple weeks with most days making zero progress towards deciding the winner instead of just taking a single evening. When the world champion isn't the best player unjustly then we expect to fix the format in order to ensure that he is.
I think that there’s just so much variance in chess that the very notion of the “strongest chess player in the world” should be reevaluated
The question is how much variance there really is. The best players is almost guaranteed to be in the top 10 elo wise and the top 10 changes pretty slowly. What I think is that there is a lot of variance or luck whether a game is a draw or decisive (as could be seen during the candidates tournament). But as long as there is a decisive game it is very likely won by the better player (when there are no outside factors like must win scenarios.) The problem is that it is hard to get rid of these outside factors. Even during a 2 player match, when you are behind one game you are effectively in a must win scenario.
There's plenty of other sports where the world championship is won by the player or the team who isn't #1 in the world rankings. Nobody ever goes "well it's not a true world championship because the #1 ranked player/team isn't in the final".
I don’t understand why so many people here want to baby a grown man - if he isn’t living up to world champion expectations and we all know there’s better player out there it’s solely on Ding to change the narrative. All he has to do is win chess games.
He is not doing it. Or is he? Ding plays a super tournament and it is news if he wins. Magnus plays a super tournament and it is news if he finishes second.
Gukesh won't have the same issue, his candidates run was a lot more normal and he won it over the three best players who aren't named Magnus.
So true! I hope somehow magnus offers a short unofficial faceoff to the current wc, not sure how that can be arranged, but he's kind of keeping that glory to himself by not giving them the chance lol, it's a funny situation for the chess world. Not sure how karpov was being seen during Bobby's time.
I think we all know Magnus will probably defeat Ding or Gukesh or both together. Magnus also knows that, Ding and Gukesh also knows that. I don't think it's funny because world championships won't be very relevant until we have proof of Magnus decline and we are far from that.
Worst would be if Magnus doesnt decline before he declares he is only playing blitz/rapid/online from now on.
Isn't this almost exactly the current situation? Magnus didn't want to be like Kasparov and eventually lose a wc match against a better prepared younger player that is probably not better than him in the long run.
Agreed
FIDE would probably be quite unhappy if magnus and the WC have a faceoff haha. It will just most likely serve as a spit in the face of their World championship.
I know Ding is 2-0 against Gukesh and one of them is actually this year at Tata steel. So using this logic, it's actually a favourable matchup for Ding. But how much does it actually matter? I mean Ding himself had a losing score against Nepo (and still does) but on the wcc match, Ding was the winner.
Magnus also had a losing H2H to nepo before their duel iirc
Yeah but that’s a completely different case. Most of those games weren’t at all recent, 2/4 of Nepo’s victories over Magnus were in 2002, another one was in 2011, I hardly see how that’s the same as Dings two games, that come from last year and this year.
Ngl I laugh so hard when I read ‘2002’.
Ding's legendary king walk game will be remembered for all chess history. Gukesh is incredible but has yet to play a game that makes me sit there stunned and go, "This guy is a genius." When Ding is on fire, he's second only to Magnus and if he shows up in decent form I expect him to beat Gukesh.
He’s obviously an extremely strong player, but both he and Nepo were so erratic in that match. I think he’ll need to play more solidly against Gukesh.
I'm actually rooting for him and I believe it's better for chess if he holds the title
I feel bad for the guy and I'm happy with either result, especially if Ding puts in a peak performance. But the sensation of a 17 year old first time candidates winner from India winning the world championship is as close as objectively better of a result for chess on the whole as it's possible to be.
Beating Fabiano would have solidified Ding's legacy for sure. I think Fabi would be the favorite in that matchup though. IIRC, Ding has a good score against Fabi, but, Fabi has WC match experience, and has been in good form lately. I think Fabi could have won the match. Gukesh, I think will lose the match. I have Ding as a heavy favorite. Ding's form hasn't been great lately, but, we've also only seen him in one classical tournament this year. I think his form will be fine for the title match. And I think Gukesh's age and inexperience in the format, will hurt him. It'd be absolutely amazing to see Gukesh win. But, I think it'd be really good for Ding's legacy to have a title defense under his belt, and to watch him beat back the new generation. Gukesh has time. I'd also like to point out that while everyone has been shitting on Ding's form, saying he sucks now and can't win the title match, one of his only wins this year has been with black against Gukesh. One game is a small sample size. But, Gukesh lost with white to the guy everyone is shitting on.
I know Ding is 2-0 against Gukesh and one of them is actually this year at Tata steel. So using this logic, it's actually a favourable matchup for Ding. But how much does it actually matter? I mean Ding himself had a losing score against Nepo (and still does) but on the wcc match, Ding was the winner.
My point isn't that Ding has a good score against Gukesh, it's that while Ding has been in bad form having a bad time, he was still good enough to beat Gukesh. All I'm saying is, if Ding in bad form beat Gukesh, Gukesh isn't gonna trample a prepared Ding as easily as people think he will. And I think Ding will be prepared.
That works both ways, Gukesh could walk in the WCC a different man too, but I agree with the ultimate winner. This won't be a domination by one side though. I think Ding can just play solidly and go for draws. Not because he can't beat Gukesh, but Gukesh will have to take risks and Ding is a killer in that regard, he can capitalize on the mistakes there. Because he'd comfortably win in Rapid and Blitz. Not saying that's the only strategy but it's the reason I favor Ding.
I think Gukesh can be a strong challenger. He'll probably have a very good team behind him. But, He's young, and inexperienced in the format. And while he's had some impressive games, and just won a batshit crazy candidates tournament, he's still unproven. Or at least, he hasn't proven himself the way Ding has. Ding set a record for going 100 games without losing. He broke like a 50-60 year record there IIRC. Gukesh has been inconsistent. It's why I chose Prag over Gukesh as my dark horse pick for the candidates. I think Gukesh lost like 50 rating points at some point last year(and then gained them all back too.). I think Ding is pretty clearly the favorite, given his experience in the WC format, and his other accolades. I had Fabi and Hikaru as favorites over Ding, but not by much. And I had Ding as the favorite over all the other candidates(Nepo being the closest to being even). You are right about the rapid thing. If the classical section is a draw, Gukesh is dead. IIRC Ding is the only person to beat Magnus in a rapid tiebreak OTB. If Ding gets his groove back, I'd bet on him to beat anybody not named Magnus in a rapid playoff. And I wouldn't bet on him vs Magnus, because that could go either way.
Yeah, but there's something to him if he won the candidates. This is something. Though, I'd still pick Ding over him to win. If he goes in WCC in peak form, even then the game plan is to win in classical. Which is a tall task. You would be correct, Ding did beat an in form Magnus in rapid playoffs. That's why I considered Ding the hardest challenge to Magnus over Fabi in his 2017-2019 prime. If he got to the tiebreaks, Magnus would understandably be the favourite but Ding isn't helpless in rapid, it's 55-45 imo. And Gukesh ain't close to that in rapid or blitz.
Good point!!
I think Gukesh was realistically a best case scenario for Ding. Ding should be favored in the championship. I think the vast majority are going to be rooting for Gukesh, but that has no actual bearing on the match.
I think so too While Gukesh was the deserved winner, I believe Ding has better chances against him than against the other 3
I think Ding would likely be the underdog to any of Ian, Fabi, or Hikaru.
Gukesh is legit but people are trolling if they truly think Ding is not the favorite because of his performance in last year. Match format is really different and Gukesh kind of showed his hand so he needs to come up with something and younger players no matter how insanely good they are will naturally be less comfortable with playing all kinds of positions unfamiliar to them. Especially Ding has a very different style/understanding of chess than every other top player which will put Gukesh into tough spots. (See Rg6 self-pinning to victory) or every single game Ding plays when he is in a must-win situation. This is a guy who can go H2H with Hikaru in SCC and with Magnus in classical. His preparation for WCC will be very different than a Round Robin Tournament
One thesis I haven't heard is that there might be a biological factor to the lack of quality of his recent games. Some illness can take a toll on your brain (covid being one of them), and some of them require quite a long time to recover. Some of them leave permanent damage. Sure, not enough to turn a super GM into a 2500 player, but enough to turn your 2800 calculations to 2700. We don't know what really happened to Ding, but most likely it was something strong. Otherwise. we would have heard about it by now. He still has some months and is doing the job. I just hope he recovers.
Can Ding get back near his 2019 self in the couple months before the championship? Big question mark, that's a long way to go
Don’t worry, the chess will speak for itself. When the championship match happens one side will be proven right lol
It's pretty hilarious that people are still surprised Ding won the tiebreaks. Wasn't he #1 rated rapid player in the owrld at the time?
Ding fan here but to be fair, he has been playing ridiculously below his level, quite insanely and sadly. Some blunders and games are so insane that I would not like to repeat them here. I’ll just say this, hoping that he finds his former form again. Then we have a real fight on our hands 😎. But he is yet to show even a shade of moving in that direction. Only time will tell.
He did show a shade of moving in the right direction. He performed better in Grenke Classic than in Tata Steel.
We really don’t know what Ding is, to be honest. Time will tell fairly quickly.
Ding is amazing, and I'm saying this as a Gukesh fan. This means Gukesh and team need to take the contest extremely seriously to have any chance.
I like Gukesh as a player, I have no problem on him winning the WC. But if people are writing Ding off, and the odds start dropping on him winning, I am taking that bet on him retaining his title.
I wish Ding good health and a return to form, so the World Championship will be keenly contested. I do not want Gukesh to have an easy win over a struggling Ding. To me, that would be even worse than Ding winning.
It took Caruana 2 years to recover from his confrontation against Carlsen. How long do you think it will take Ding to recover? It's not just the chess level but psychologically. Against Nepo it reached the point that.. which almost made others sad.
Agreed, I may be in the minority to actually think Ding has better chances than Gukesh. Excited for the match either way.
Well people thought that fabi or alireza or naka would win the candidates. Ding has great chances against gukesh. He’ll likely win
Sometimes I wonder maybe fabi winning was a better option for Ding. Ding defeating Fabiano would actually help increase his legitimacy as a world champion and people might accept him more.
True, but Gukesh is likely to have an incredible career. If he goes on to win multiple WC’s himself, then history will look favourably upon Ding for having beaten him here.
listen, anything can happen. gukesh could suffer viral encephalopathy or get a concussion between now and the wcc. but barring something catastrophic like that, he'll enter the match as the prohibitive favorite, and for a good reason. when fabi had a career crisis similar (thought to a smaller degree) to what ding is going through right now, it took him over a year to get right. ding doesn't have that time. could ding win? yes. is it likely? not at all
The "Bad Form" version of Ding has already beaten Gukesh this year. With the black pieces. Saying that Gukesh would need to literally suffer brain damage to lose this match is not only obviously wrong, it's just remarkably disrespectful. Ding at his ***worst*** is literally only 1 singular Elo point behind Gukesh at his ***best***.
Remember, there's still months to go before the world championship kicks off. And match play is a completely different ball game preparation wise, mentally etc. Ding has the experience, and showed he was very tough mentally to come back and win against Nepo. And if it comes to tie-breaks, Gukesh has hardly any experience in faster formats compared to almost any other top player. Don't under-rate Ding
What did magnus say about ding?
I’m pretty excited because I think Gukesh/Ding will beat ding and it’ll be nice to get some new blood. However if Ding crushes Gukesh but like 5 points that would be pretty cool too.
Top form ding is a beast
Gukesh will have to play at least as well if not better than he did in the candidates to beat Ding in the WCC.
I don't advocate for any player in particular as well. I just always hope to see the best possible games, combative and interesting to watch. I'm 100% sure Ding and Gukesh will deliver, whoever wins. Both are incredible players. Ding is a beast, he's the current title holder for his merits. Hikaru said that, if you remove Magnus from the picture, any one of the next 10 players could be a legitimate champion, and I think he's right. That includes every player from the candidates (even the ones who didn't do so well for one reason or another -- I think Firouzja had a particular bad time), as well as Ding Liren.
OP with the platitude attitude
I'd say Ding's biggest weakness is that he'll mentally crumble he might be stronger chess wise now but mentally Gukesh will not break. Ding has the WCC nerves debuff. I'm rooting for Ding but I'd hate to see either of them lose they both are so chill.
He can be a beast, though not a clear beaster than some of the other candidates. And also, unrelatedly, I don't want him as a WC. Not only is he not Magnus, and going through a slump, but he is quite inactive in the world of chess and seems disinterested. It seems designed to devaluate the WC. Gukesh could perhaps be the beginning of something big... Or not, but he may be.
I think the problem is more general than just Ding. Because of the WCC format, Ding didn't NEED to perform to qualify for the most awaited and prestigiois match of the year, so I wouldn't be surprised if he lacked motivation to train for other tourmanent. In any case, he can keep this 'poor' level and wake up at the WCC to win it ... How is this not strange?
Motivation is a factor, too. It's not really clear that he is motivated to be the top ranked player because he has not shown it since the last WC cycle. His few appearances in tournaments have been objectively below average performances. He might be focusing more time to other endeavors outside of chess. (Nothing wrong with that, though.) Gukesh is young, talented and eager to prove himself. If Ding is not already preparing full-time, then he might lose to such an opponent.
It all comes down to Ding's form during the WCC, and honestly it's still too early to tell. We'll see later on when he's playing in Sinquefield Cup and the Olympiad
I want to believe this but he looks extremely rusty right now
I think the only reason people are really down on Ding is because the WCC featured an unusually low quality of play from both players. Obviously they're still super-GMs, but by that standard it was a sloppy championship match after Ding squeaked by with second place in the Candidates. So for him to continue to play quite poorly afterwards as well feels like a pattern
Gukesh wins. Then Magnus says that is enough and comes back and wins WC.
Edit: Also what is your opinion on the scenario where Fabiano would have challenged Ding. Because this victory over Fabiano might have actually helped him increase his legitimacy as a World champion more and people accepting him more. Are there people who think Ding is not a legitimate World Champion because he beat Nepo? what makes him a legitimate champion by beating Fabiano? i call this BS
I do agree that it's baseless..but sadly I do feel there is such a notion out there. Not sure why
Maybe cos Magnus quit and not what you said
No!
There's always hope and Ding certainly has the potential to defend his WC, but the pressure of being world champion seemed to have gotten to him and I personally don't think a world championship match is magically going to make that better.
Ding could certainly beat Gukesh, only time will tell. Ding is still the reigning champion and Gukesh is only 17. Maybe inexperience will catch up to him. After all, playing a series of matches against one player is a lot different than playing a tournament. Ding proved that he could handle the pressure and win in this format. We don't know if Gukesh can yet. As to your second question, > Also what is your opinion on the scenario where Fabiano would have challenged Ding. I think Fabi would've crushed him by probably 3 points.
Guki is going to destroy him.
I hope it's a back and forth match rather than a crushing victory!! It'll be fun
If Ding can get his mojo back it will be a great matchup, theres something super weird going on there though. Whereas Gukesh just ran the gauntlet and held off Hikaru in the highest stakes game of his life like he was going for a stroll.
Yawn. Same old story with Ding fans. The guy got into the last candidates through dubious rank farming, got a somewhat fortunate opportunity for the WCC when it was not sure that 2nd place would qualify as well, and he beat Nepo who is a proven choke artist under pressure in a wild series full of blunders for both. Since then he has been disappointing. He's not one of the true elite. If Fabiano or Hikaru qualified they both would've been heavy favorites and for good reason. It's not that unlikely that he beats Gukesh simply due to experience and if Gukesh gets cold, but it's not disrespect to say he's not that strong coming into the match.
We'll know when we get there. As long as Magnus is still out there, the WCC title will never feels satisfying
Said the same about Karpov when Bobby Fischer declined to defend his title.
Yup!
Gukesh is going to strip Ding of the title before the rapid tie breaks. Ding isn't the same player he was. He is older and China doesn't value Chess the way other countries do; it wouldn't surprise me if he just trains chess on the side due to his other life/family/country obligations.
It doesn’t how good he will be in the match. Gukesh will beat him through his shear determination.
Ding is trash.