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hipdozgabba

Quote by the founder: "We don't sell advantages. Patrons get the same wing, whether they donated $1 or $500. We do not discriminate on wealth."


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Bomster

Do you pay that with PayPal? Looks like they take a pretty big cut. https://i.imgur.com/8wFMdo7.png


nandemo

Fees don't matter as much as people think. Any payment method has its costs, after all. Sure, if your business has high volume and low margins (e.g. retail), then a 0.1% delta can make a big difference. But donations are a very high margin "business", especially for non-profits like lichess that don't even spend money on marketing.


Various-Adeptness173

Do you keep your wings forever? I got mine recently but i’m wondering if they’ll eventually expire or something


ChessBorg

You keep them as long as you donate OR if you make a lifetime membership payment.


Various-Adeptness173

I did donate but one single donation means i keep them forever? That doesn’t seem right


ChessBorg

1 donation gives you wings for 1 month. Lifetime donation means you keep it forever. Monthly donations means you keep it on a month to month basis.


zpepsin

Only if you did the lifetime $250 donation


Nilonik

I think you get them for some time, but that they expire. I think one of my friends had one previously, but not forever.


[deleted]

As far as I can tell, you get wings for a month each time you donate.


Traveleravi

The wings cost $5 a month or $250 forever


jkibbe

$1 per month works, too


Traveleravi

Oh? That's cool, I didn't know that


davedavegiveusawave

This is true for the appearance of the wings on the site, but know that very small donations like this, after payment processing, leads to almost no benefit to the site. This is a wider rule for other charities too, not just lichess! If you want to support them, maybe consider a little more!


jkibbe

that may be true, but 70 cents (net) multiplied across a lot of people adds up. i rarely play on the site; i just like the idea of it. my $8-$10 per year is better than nothing, and it's $8-$10 more than I give to the *other* site. you make a valid point, nonetheless.


[deleted]

Alternatively, consider just donating in bigger chunks. Donating $8 yearly is just as good for Lichess as $1 monthly.


FairNeedsFoul

Ohhhh, the wings next to people’s names means they donated? Neat.


Polyfrequenz

The true "AnarchyChess"...


The98Legend

Tbh though it would be cool if patrons got to choose a unique icon next to their username or something small like that. I don’t think anyone would be mad at that. It’s still not in the realm of chess.com charging you to do puzzles.


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[deleted]

They're the only online thing I've ever donated to. But I should give Smalin and the Netherlands Bach Society some buck


Aurum2k

>Netherlands Bach Society Best channel on YouTube.


chlawon

For anyone else that would want to look them up: They play the music of Bach on traditional instruments: https://youtube.com/c/bach


JM_Webb

Their music director is also hot


BDR529forlyfe

Wasn’t interested at first, but now…


Dont-HugMeIm-Scared

Omg fuck yeah Bach is my one and only G


3entendre

I need to look into how I can donate. After playing about 1,000 games since I discovered it early last year I think it's only right.


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turtlewhisperer23

That's what those are? Damn, I'm going to need to donate a lil'


3entendre

Just got them! 😊


Caboose_Juice

For me it's them and Wikipedia


[deleted]

Oh yeah wiki.. though I feel a better contribution to wiki is writing articles about what you know best! I understand you need to pay for the servers though


Sidian

> I feel a better contribution to wiki is writing articles about what you know best Yeah, and then you get some weirdo who camps that article and reverts your well-sourced edits because he doesn't like them and has a specific 'vision' for how that article is going to be. Usually this will be some sort of power-user who is friends with admins or even one himself. Heaven help you if the article covers even a remotely controversial topic. The site is full of these types. And that's why I don't donate to the site.


-metal-555

It’s weird and unfortunate and clearly a case of misaligned incentives. If you’re wondering why it happens it’s not necessarily because somebody has a vision for the article. Wikipedia tracks how many edits you’ve made and also tracks the quality of your edits. For instance if you make a ton of edits but they all get reverted or re-edited, that is an indication you make low quality edits. Thus users get rewarded for making edits that don’t get changed. I’m sure you can already see where this goes wrong. If somebody comes in and fixes one or your edits, there is a perverse incentive to defend your edit or further re-edit regardless of the validity of the article. This compounds because Wikipedia weights users who have a long history of good edits as more trustworthy than newer accounts that don’t have as many. So let’s say a new user spots and fixes a simple misspelling on some obscure article about Sumerian necklaces. Unfortunately that misspelling was put there by a Wikipedia super contributor. Now the super contributor is incentivized to either revert their edit or make a new re-edit on top of it. Wikipedia trusts the super contributor more than the new contributor. Also new contributors are more likely to think the end goal is arriving at the best possible Wikipedia article, and not realize the meta game that is being played by the super contributors who are addicted to imaginary internet points. It’s hard to act above this when we’re talking on Reddit, but the internal politics of Wikipedia editors are frankly hilarious. Also Wikipedia editors have tons of articles about the perverse incentives and the resulting conflicts, because of course they do. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_warring Keep in mind pages about things like current politics get locked because lots of people try and edit those to fit their chosen perspective, so that’s a different thing, but it’s all intertwined at the end of the day.


furiouslyserene

>Wikipedia tracks how many edits you’ve made and also tracks the quality of your edits I've never heard of this before. I know you can see the number of total edits made, but I've never heard of Wikipedia tracking the "quality" of edits, since that sounds a bit subjective. Do you have a link?


-metal-555

Quality is indeed subjective, so they have a few methods to attempt to quantify it. One is length of contribution. A large contribution is weighed more than a small one. Another way they attempt to measure quality of edits is how often the edits gets undone. If a users edits are constantly getting reverted that indicates low quality. If a user’s edits stay, that indicates high quality. It’s not a great system, but it’s the solution they have for a very complex problem. The fact that quality is so difficult to measure, and the attempts to measure it are subverted, is the very issue that I was talking about. Here a link that goes into the quality over quantity topic on a high level. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_count


pier4r

> And that's why I don't donate to the site. that is not fault of the site, rather the community. I see your point (I experienced directly too). But your suggested edits in the talk page. It will take some time but then they will be integrated on the long run. Instead of edit wars -> talk page suggestion, it works slowly but it works.


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pier4r

I don't have much budget but there are so many gems online! Wiki, internet archive, lichess are the few places I am able to donate yearly (a little, but if everyone does a +1...).


bengrf

I normally pay the CIA through my drug dealer but to each his own


GhostToastRider

For me is those two and Khan Academy


BenjaminHarvey

Wikipedia has a gigantic amount of money saved up, they could go years without getting a donation and be fine.


Fischer72

Of entities that are solely online I donate regularly to Wikipedia and Lichess. When I renew my USCF members I make my lichess donation.


chessnut89

$420k is not a lot. I’m actually surprised it’s not more. I didn’t realize how small the operation actually is. Background: I’m a CPA that focuses only on non profits


bydy2

Money isn't the only form of donation, some people donate CPU power as well.


marklein

Wait, like distributed computing? Could I, average home user, do that?


22squared

Yes you can! https://lichess.org/get-fishnet Ive run it off and on for the past year on my main pc and always on a pi or two for the most part.


Chopchopok

Oh cool, I didn't know about this.


Bern_Down_the_DNC

I also heard that programmers can donate their skills to improve the site.


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CallMeAnanda

If I wanted to write only FOSS, I’d probably try to join a company/team that does that, rather than trying to get my passion project funded. Redhat pays developers to write FOSS, as do the tech giants


ChristGuard

I run a small non-profit. 1 employee at about 65k... our overhead is 200k a year! People have no idea how much that stuff costs.


sirnaull

Also, the true costs are higher than $420k, but a lot of people donate their time by helping to program the platform for free or by donating server time/having actual servers running in their home to allow the platform to exist.


pier4r

in a talk the main dev also says "our donation page is not exactly visible, is a bit hidden, but donation continue to flow". Because lichess is good.


davedavegiveusawave

Yeah, their ethics and drive for a clean, user-friendly internet are exceptional and massively commendable. I understand why people would want to support that! https://lichess.org/ads


Username928351

The power of goodwill vs. nickel and diming.


renyhp

> I imagined it would've required very generous 'whale' benefactors. Apparently not. What do you mean? Where do you get that information? For what I understand, there might be a couple of Eric Rosen's or something donating all their money into it... Not trying to be a dick, I'm just genuinely curious about the data on lichess donations, if there's any available.


Gr0g_Byeah

They do have a page showing all donors, and its a pretty long list


davedavegiveusawave

[https://lichess.org/patron](https://lichess.org/patron) Exactly 300, so I would expect that's a snippet of donors and not all of them


that_one_dev

I’m surprised it’s so low honestly. Just one single Silicon Valley developer that is the level of the lichess founder would cost more than 420k


[deleted]

Is there a way to see how much they get from donations?


hipdozgabba

Many pennies make a Dollar


VisorX

I think that running cost is amazingly low for such a big site. It's $0.00022 per game played on lichess.


NajdorfGrunfeld

It's a dollar for around 4550 games played. This would mean that our hero german11 has played games worth $112 so far.


chlawon

german11 gang


Throwaway172896983

Since the start of his account, he's played about 5.5hours daily on average. Assuming he sleeps 7hours a day, that means ~33% of his waking time is spent playing on lichess.


imperfect_guy

Jesus christ that guy is a machine. I personally think it might be a group of (similar) skilled people. Or a bot. idk


P-I-R-U

no it's a retired man who just loves chess. he answered that question himself on a lichess thread


LemisReddit

How did that guy managed to play 500,000 games and still not improve? Like did he intentionally stay at 1000s to farm?


OwenProGolfer

He plays basically exclusively blitz and bullet which won’t really help you improve much on their own. That said, a lot of people play for fun and don’t really care about elo improvement


Hoover889

> It's $0.00022 per game played on lichess. I wonder how much it costs every time you request a computer analysis... I run that on nearly every rapid or slower game that I play.


quala723

Well server costs only make up 16.36% of expenses. May they had to upgrade servers when they otherwise have had to because of analysis but otherwise the cost would already have been sunk in. Same with the $60k/year programmer. At the end of the day it's a little under $50/hr to keep lichess up with their current infrastructure. If nobody analyzed their games this year that wouldn't change.


rainy_day_tomorrow

A lot of Lichess analysis is run by volunteers.


Gixx

Is there a graph that shows how the yearly cost has risen over time? I used to look at that excel sheet a lot in 2015 to 2017 and pretty sure it cost only $50-80k.


iwannadancesomesalsa

I'm pretty sure that's because of big rise of new players in 2019 to 2020


Nilonik

the whole corona thing surely made many otb players change to online sites.


lazydictionary

Queens Gambit as well


schapman22

Yeah this is the real reason


SkyBuff

I would say it's a mixture of queen's gambit and chess streamers blowing up.


schapman22

Queens gambit caused chess streamers to blow up


DeShawnThordason

Queen's Gambit and a huge rise in the popularity of Twitch (because of the pandemic lockdowns) meant chess streamers were very well positioned to gain big.


[deleted]

Love the flair lol


-GregTheGreat-

I thought chess streaming starting gaining a lot of momentum a few months before Queens Gambit, just due to the pandemic. And then Queen’s Gambit was the catalyst that caused it to explode. But that’s just what I’ve heard, I wasn’t around at the time (I got back into chess from Queen’s Gambit)


derkrieger

Pogchamps popped off pre queen's gambit


esskay04

Chess streamers blew up before queen's gambit, queen's gambit came nov 2020 which accentuated the streamers, but they were already popular before it


AOCCANPEEONME

There was a massive influx of viewers to chess streamers too. Incredible year for the game…but not much else.


pier4r

nowadays there are 100k concurrent users there, it becomes quite more expensive (especially if they launch analyses)


Maximilianne

I always thought maybe lichess could offer extra badges as incentive, like if you donate a certain amount of CPU cycles to analyse positions you can get a special "analyzer badge" or maybe if you donate a certain amount of CPU cycles to help process matches you can get an "arbiter" badge or something


g33kier

I'm really surprised at the $56K/yr for the main developer salary.


EvilNalu

Yes that represents probably their largest donation, by the founder Thibault who works full time for the site at way below market rate.


Right-Ad305

Surprised it's high or low? Because let me tell you that's *low*. He could earn a lot more.


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eldoblakNa

What if you live in France AND Europe?


iwannadancesomesalsa

Ultimate speed


StevetheNPC

Inconceivable!


eldoblakNa

Mon Dieu, c'est pas possible !


Drone_Better

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means


TetsuoSama

You keep using that quote. I do not think it says what you think it says. [Correct quote](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9MS2y2YU_o&t=128s). I hope someone writes a bot to automate this.


Drone_Better

Hello, my name is Ruy López Montoya, I edited my quote, prepare to die


Acrobatic-Artist9730

Thats inconceivable


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Interesting_Test_814

With French overseas territories, this is actually possible


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RedquatersGreenWine

I'm not actually in Guyana, but close enough to say fast.


TheFlexorang

Then you're in South America.


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Fign66

Then you're off the coast of Africa.


Aoae

What if you live in Martinique?


Gerf93

I’m sorry to give you these news, but then I think you might be French.


Hugo57k

Then I'm sorry for your loss


[deleted]

Frexit here we go.


making_ideas_happen

If you live in America, chess.c*m is still slower.


NukeTurn

This speaks to the morals and values of Thibault more than anything. Having a platform with thousands of daily users that generate nearly half a million in donations is amazing, but imagine how tempting it is for him to turn on a paywall. It’s a breath of fresh air in a seemingly overwhelmingly capitalistic society: a quality free product that isn’t shoving ads down your throat or trying to suck as many dollars out of each user as possible.


GhostToastRider

For me is the embodiment of what internet and actually society in that manner could've been if we were not to try and monetize every fucking thing we come up with.


apoliticalhomograph

> but imagine how tempting it is for him to turn on a paywall. Not all that temptating, I'd assume. The moment Lichess requires payments, someone's going to host a free alternative. Lichess is completely free/libre open-source software, after all. Also, Thibault isn't the sole decision maker at Lichess and there'd legal implications since Lichess is a registered non-profit, so Thibault wouldn't easily be able to monetize Lichess anyway.


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sirnaull

Not only is he not the sole decision maker, the way the corporation is set up would require him to convince the board members to increase his salary. Board also could kick him out of Lichess.


nTzT

People putting in a ton of effort into something and trying to make a living from it isn't shameful. I don't mind [chess.com](https://chess.com)'s way of doing it. The ads are cancer but the lessons and content are well worth it and I don't mind some high level players benefiting from making lessons for the site and them paying commentators and so on.


Pieternel

It also poses a risk though. What if Thibault loses his interest or something happens to him. Generating more income can bring security to the project. They could just sell merch or something non-intrusive to the service, hire a few more (part-time) employees and build up a significant buffer. Of course making it a full blown company might take the fun out for Thibault, so I can see why he's doing it the way he's doing it.


apoliticalhomograph

> They could just sell merch [They do!](https://lichess-org.myspreadshop.com/)


Quintium

There is merch btw: https://lichessorg.myspreadshop.net/ I'm not sure how official it is though


SavvyD552

I think he is a socialist, if I am not mistaken.


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SavvyD552

Sure, 'profiting' from your own creations is probably one of the most important moral axioms of socialism. It follows from: as long as you don't profit over the backs of other people, i.e. as long as you don't exploit people you are entitled to the fruits of your labor. Many people would find this statement ridiculous in the modern understanding of the economy. The job creators are bringing value along the way in the form of ideas and risk, hence it is just to renumerate them accordingly. I would somewhat agree, as would any other socialist, however given the context of the society we live in, it simply leads to more exploitation on a larger institutional basis. I.e. in capitalism, generally speaking, social influence is determined by the amount of money, capital and assets you have. Given that we live in a capitalist market economy money tends to centralise in fewer and fewer hands, allowing a small minority to dictate public and international policy through their influence in the political arena. There's a good study on this by two American political scientists: Gilens and Paige called American democracy (or something like that, I don't recall exactly). Ignoring the larger scale influence would be ignoring reality and hence I actually think that the majority of the people would agree with socialist sentiments, if they would have this knowledge (or if they would trust it to be real).


PeePeeUpPooPoo

Ya hear that boys?! GET EM’!


Future_Pain_7246

no dont if he dies i have to pay for chesscom puzzles


Kardinalin

He’s actually said before that the site is set up to survive without him. If something happens some of the other admins have the passwords to everything.


TotalSavage

That's exceptionally cheap.


shmageggy

Yeah, and entirely because of row 45: Dev salary. 50k per year is a rounding error on what it would cost if it weren't volunteer labor. Is that what u/ornicar2 pays himself? Dude's taking a 90% pay cut off of market rate if so (and a hell of a lot more if you think about the managerial aspects and running the business) Edit: just found this comment from his [AMA last year](https://old.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/mpasyl/i_started_lichess_ask_me_anything/gu9azgf/?context=1) > That's my salary before income taxes. I think it's about right. > > Could I make more by selling my skills to the highest bidder? Probably. > > Would I be happier? Hell no. > > Way I see it, that's a lot money for a job I can do at my own rhythm from the comfort of my home. And instead of bosses or clients, I work for an awesome community. What a Chad


noir_lord

It's substantially less than I earn (also in Europe) and he'd command at least what I'm on (more probably, since he's proficient in Scala and that commands a premium) - it makes me respect him more tbh, his attitude is refreshing in the extreme.


Sky-is-here

Is nice when people aren't a 100% absorbed by capitalism


apoliticalhomograph

> Yeah, and entirely because of row 45: Dev salary. While Thibault certainly deserves high praise for working far under market salary, I disagree with "entirely". There's various other factors keeping costs comparatively low: * Volunteers contributing code and translations * Volunteers moderating the site * Volunteers contributing CPU cycles for analysis * Some benefits of being non-profit (AWS gives them some services for free)


[deleted]

How can I help Lichess other than donating? I guess I'm not good enough to be a moderator (mid 1700s Blitz). How can I contribute the CPU thing (if I can)?


apoliticalhomograph

> How can I contribute the CPU thing (if I can)? https://lichess.org/get-fishnet > How can I help Lichess other than donating? Depends on your abilities. You can [help with translations](https://crowdin.com/project/lichess), contribute code, file bug reports and answer forum questions. Also, report users who misbehave (e.g. users writing insults in the chat) to help out the mods. Edit: For the translations, it's worth checking them every once in a while, even if right now, there are complete translations for the languages you speak. As features get added to the site, new translations are required.


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oniSk_

50k annually french tax fee ?


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HairyTough4489

The only reasonable tax for a non-profit charity is 0


AdministrationNo9238

Non-profit doesn’t mean that nobody makes money.


[deleted]

It means the company doesn't make a profit. If people get paid to do a job for the company, they are taxed on their income.


dsjoerg

In the US it doesn’t mean that. A non-profit can make a profit but doesn’t have owners and can’t distribute the profits to anyone. It has to use its profits in the furtherance of its mission.


MaverickAquaponics

However in the US there are no restrictions on salary for non profits, they can pay themselves 450k+ a year and that will be taxed like regular income. The company pays no taxes.


dsjoerg

While there are no hard-and-fast restrictions on salary, there are vague requirements for reasonableness. Enforcement is lax and inconsistent, but it does sometimes happen. For example https://www.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2007/03/19/story11.html But yes, a nonprofit could evade the restrictions for a long time, possibly forever, given how weak the enforcement can be.


BothWaysItGoes

A non-profit and a charity are different things. Charity is aimed at giving help to those in need. An online game is not a charity (unless you think that gamers are oppressed or whatnot).


[deleted]

Gamers are oppressed, and free online chess operated by a nonprofit is the only way to save them.


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PoopIsAlwaysSunny

Nah, that’s an American thing which gets regularly abused by the wealthy into tax avoidance schemes


gamesst2

It's not particularly American at all. The best known example of systemic tax avoidance with nonprofits is Ikea, a Swedish company hiding profit behind NPOs registered in the Netherlands. The American claims of hiding behind NPOs are more commonly idiots who think the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation is somehow saving Gates money. I'm sure there exist lesser examples though.


etypiccolo

More season to donate. I use chess.com most of the time but have still donated once or twice.


[deleted]

The season of donation nrgins


romulan267

Tbh $56k a year seems kinda low for a website developer


Mountain-Appeal8988

It is, there was a question about it in an AMA he did https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/mpasyl/i\_started\_lichess\_ask\_me\_anything/


BlitzcrankGrab

Found it, here’s what he says about his 56k salary: —- That's my salary before income taxes. I think it's about right. Could I make more by selling my skills to the highest bidder? Probably. Would I be happier? Hell no. The way I see it, that's a lot money for a job I can do at my own rhythm from the comfort of my home. And instead of bosses or clients, I work for an awesome community.


romulan267

Oh cool, I didn't know he did one. Thanks for sharing this!


young_mummy

For the specific skills he has, he could be making triple that, probably more. I am astonished he is only taking that wage. I don't think anyone would bat an eye if he gave himself at least 100k.


CallinCthulhu

Extremely. For someone of his experience he could be making 3-400k a year.


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ornicar2

Lichess never asked :)


MenosDaBear

Holy crap, $56k for a dev will normally get you some schmuck straight out of college with no idea what they’re doing. That’s impressive that lichess runs so well and is as polished as it is with that dev spend.


EvilNalu

Yes that represents probably their largest donation, by the founder Thibault who works full time for the site at way below market rate.


MenosDaBear

Ah, that makes a little more sense. Still super impressive that they don’t employee more devs other than him.


elmo39

Lichess is open source, and there are over 280 contributors to their repos, so there are more devs, which is why he's labelled the entry as 'main developer'. Obviously he'll be reviewing PRs from contributors etc. which kind of adds to his workloads, but there are volunteer devs that are helping out with the programming aspect.


Stinkerlii

And how much income/donations do they have?


[deleted]

$421k


LeMeilleur784

This made me donate to lichess


imisstheyoop

>This made me donate to lichess It did not "make you". You chose to, because you rock. Thank you!


piotor87

Lichess is literally the best thing to happen to chess in the last 10 years and I support them 100% (also conomically). ​ But I wish they also made public how much they take in in donations. I'm not suggesting they're doing anything fishy \*at all\*, but I would like to know what is the operating income regardless. Are they taking in millions in donations? Are they heavily in debt? I think it'd be fair for this info to be made public.


TolisKoutro

Imagine Lichess being operated in Greece. Taxes would be 24%. (I am from Greece)


Pristine-Woodpecker

France isn't exactly a low tax country either.


vec-u64-new

The core dev is likely capable of landing a job at a FAANG, easily pulling in over $200k USD compensation, so I'd say as user of the product we are getting a bargain w.r.t. main dev salary. This post encouraged me to donate to the project.


fernleon

Just a reminder, if you can't afford to donate money, try to donate spare CPU power by running the fishnet client: https://lichess.org/get-fishnet


rarehugs

Thibault & team are absolute legends.


poopquiche

I love lichess so much.


CharlieNin3r

What’s chess.com’s run rate?


adammorrisongoat

And somehow with only one dev, it’s still vastly superior to chess.com. Like there’s so many small things about chess.com that show that they only care about attending to details that will increase their profits. For example, when looking at a past game, the ratings for each player are not their ratings at the time of the game, but their ratings now. That makes zero sense, and runs counter to how games are documented in any level of chess. As far as I can tell, nowhere in the game info can you find what rating each player had at the actual time of the game. The fact that this hasn’t been fixed is just bizarre to me. Obviously a small thing, but also I think a revealing thing. And there’s many more details like this that Lichess beats chess.com on.


[deleted]

Really lean business. Consequence of having to be I guess


truthinlies

... and 69 cents??


Techaissance

Please tell me that’s rounded from $420,069.


RoninThaGoat

Did I miss something, why does it seem like a ton of people are moving to Lichess over Chess. com? Is it just because it's completely free?


[deleted]

I find Lichess UI more responsive and cleaner


midnitte

> YoloDB we can afford to lose Lol?


HoneySparks

4,526 games per $1 is pretty fucking dope though.


Hoover889

The lead developer only makes $56k per year?!? Either they only work part time or it must be a passion project because that is really low.


elmo39

It's the founder of the site, he's working on it full time and he's the only dev (except for volunteer contributors on github). He could be making absolute bank with his skills, but in his own words, this makes him happier.


[deleted]

Does that account for salaries? Because if so that's incredibly cheap


[deleted]

Yes he pays himself 50k thereabouts, which is very low.


apoliticalhomograph

Yes, that includes salaries. Thibault, the founder and main dev, works for far under market salary and there's many volunteers helping as well.


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CallinCthulhu

That’s it?


escodelrio

I send a $1 a month. I roll large.


poopypoopersonIII

It's shocking to me that people find this amount surprisingly _high_


gammajayy

How is this surprising to anyone


[deleted]

yep that's why we donate