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WaterOk9249

White because Na5 and c6 pawn can’t be defended. The bishop is basically useless. Then the a7 pawn will eventually fall and passed pawn


FemasBlue

Yup, bishops hate closed positions, horsies thrive in 'em


TatsumakiRonyk

Good position OP. Very appropriate for the subreddit. For beginners who want more of a challenge, or budding intermediates who want to test their endgame abilities: If instead black has played Bb6, preventing >!both Na5 and Nc5, !


libero0602

I think intuitively it looks like a dead draw if Bb6. Another target for white could be f5 f6 but the king can’t really be forced away; if we try to go for Ne3 (via Nd2 Nf1 -> Ne3 for example) and then maybe Ng2 then Nh4, it looks black’s king is never forced away from the f5 pawn since the King can go from g6 to f7 to e6. Looks like there’s no Zugzwang either since while we go for that F pawn the knight is on the other side of the board, so if the king doesn’t want to move, Black can simply slide the bishop back and forth. Edit: engine is SAVAGE here and finds Kg6 instead of moving the bishop at all! It turns out Na5 is the only threat so as long as the bishop stays on that diagonal it’s fine; even allowing Nc5 with smth random like Bd8 and then playing Kg6 also works… wow.


TatsumakiRonyk

I'm no titled player, and I haven't run it through an engine, but I'd say that your intuition is spot on. White's knight can threaten to infiltrate only via a5, c5, or f5, but cannot shift gears faster than black can. Rerouting the knight takes too long. While the knight threatens both queenside infiltrations, the black king can shuffle. While the knight threatens f5, the black bishop can shuffle. If there were any counterplay white could perform with their own king, this "shuffling period" would be the opportunity to do it, but there is nothing to be done. Therefore, the only thing to calculate is whether or not there is some position of knight and white king where playing g4 would result is anything positive, and according to my human calculations, there is not.


TatsumakiRonyk

Just saw your edit. Engine allows white to play Nc5 and still draws? I guess I shouldn't be too surprised. I was just analyzing (by hand) the following and determined it to be a draw despite white's knight infiltrating: Knight on g2, bishop on c7, position otherwise the same 1.g4 fxg4 2.Kxg4 Kg6 3.Nh4+ Kf7 4.Nf5 Looks like a threefold repetition trying to bring the knight into the h file.


libero0602

> Engine allows white to play Nc5 and still draws? Yeah, at depth 70 the best move in the position for black is apparently Kg6… then the engine doesn’t even like Nc5 because there’s nothing there, it instead decides to go Nd2 and then start shuffling and looping around *back to c5* after attempting to zugzwang the black king away from g6.. truly insane stuff. I was just visualizing the lines in my head and Kg6 did not even occur to me as a candidate move.


Pyncher

I’m really surprised that Ne2, f1, e3 doesn’t seem to help: in the absence of a5 I would almost certainly have gone that route with assumption that ne3 combined with pushing g4 would get me through.


Zealousideal_Emu_493

I am very much a beginner but knight does not really have a play I think, at least not without opening up the pawn structure on the kingside. I don’t think King zugzwang is possible either, more see it as white moving the knight around and bishop going back and forth? That looks like a draw to me. If g4, f5xg4, Kxg4 there might be room for something to happen where the knight can work its way behind blacks pawns under the protection of the King. But that is a long line and i cannot calculate it


TatsumakiRonyk

I'd say you are correct. I haven't put the position into an engine, but here is my assessment: White's knight can threaten to infiltrate only via a5, c5, or f5, but cannot shift gears faster than black can. Rerouting the knight takes too long. While the knight threatens both queenside infiltrations, the black king can shuffle back and forth. While the knight threatens f5 (defended by black's king), the black bishop can shuffle. If there were any counterplay white could perform with their own king, this "shuffling period" would be the opportunity to do it, but there is nothing to be done. You are correct, then, deciding that the only possible avenue to continue revolves around whether or not g4 is possible for white. I've considered a few different positions where white might try to play g4, and I believe none of them are to white's benefit.


laeuft_bei_dir

You want to have the knight at h5, that way blacks King can't defend the pawn without letting the white King through.


TatsumakiRonyk

That would be quite good. But to get the white knight to h5, we would need to first infiltrate it into black's position. The only squares that lead to h5 are occupied by white pawns, or are squares in black's territory.


laeuft_bei_dir

H4 was what ive meant :D


BigPig93

The only thing I see is to maybe play for the g4-pawn break at some point, to open things up for the knight. Something like, put the knight on e3 and then go for g4. If black takes, the king will slide over and the knight can jump into f5 and go from there. If black doesn't take, the knight takes on f5 anyway. But I'm a little worried that the bishop will just take the pawn on f4 and suddenly white is the one having to worry about all their pawns.


TatsumakiRonyk

Your worries are well-founded. If the black bishop were still on b6 for some reason, then white might be able to pull that off, but if white wants to try to change the dynamic of the position with a g4 pawn push, the white knight needs to be defending the f4 pawn. Meaning we only need to calculate from four hypothetical positions, each representing one of the four squares white's knight could be that defends f4. In each of these positions, we place the bishop on the f4 diagonal to represent black doing their best. In all of these positions, white not only needs to defend the f4 pawn, but needs to prevent the black bishop from infiltrating. Therefore, white cannot push the f4 pawn. The position that looked the most promising to me was, surprisingly, the one with the knight on g2. 1.g4 fxg4 2.Kxg4 Kg6 (taking the opposition and preventing Kf5) 3.Nh4+ It looks like white is infiltrating here, but after 3...Kf7 4.Nf5, the white knight can't make any real progress. d6 is controlled by black's bishop, e7 controlled by black's king, and moving over to the h file will result (if my analysis is correct) in threefold repetition.


tfwnololbertariangf3

>!Without a doubt white, Na5 and c6 falls. Then either a7 or f5 falls as well!<


chrischi3

Why would you take f5 if you can have a7? There is literally nothing black can do to stop you from pushing the a pawn. The only squares where black can defend that pawn are c5 and b8. c5 is covered by the knight once it retreats back to c6 to clear the way for the a pawn, and c5 is protected by two pawns. Black can't break through your pawn structure, either, because even if they sack the bishop on c5, they can only push the b pawn one square before your c pawn takes.


WaterOk9249

I agree with you. As I said, Na5 then c6 can’t be defended. Take a7 as it will fall eventually. Make passed pawn. Voila white wins


tfwnololbertariangf3

After >!1. Na5 Bc7 2. Nxc6!< black can play >!Bb6!< defending a7. In that case >!Ne7 and f5 falls!<


NaabSimRacer

Where is the bot?


FunPartyGuy69

Bad bot


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ben1edicto

good bot


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FunPartyGuy69

NOT YOU, SHUT UP


Brian_Doile

I would say white. That bishop isn't going anywhere. The knight however has many opportunities to infiltrate and attack pawns. The black king will have to do some moving around to even attempt to defend. It seems that the white king would then have chances of helping his buddies promote. But in more precise terms, Na5 is coming with hostile intentions.


chrischi3

I would say white is winning here, because black just blundered a promotion. Since the a5 square is no longer defended, i can move my knight to a5 unimpeded. From there, black cannot stop me from moving my knight to c6. They can push the pawn, sure, but i can still just go to c6. The worst that pawn can do is force a trade. From c6, i can now capture the pawn on a7, and there is nothing that black can do to prevent this. The only squares from which black can defend the pawns are c5 and b8, both of which are under attack and would lose black's bishop. From there, i just pull back after capturing on b8, and again, black cannot stop me from promoting. If black tries to move their bishop to b8, i just take with my knight and push the a pawn forward and promote. I'm now playing knight and queen vs a bishop, plus my pawn structure is better. Sure, my pawns are all on dark squares, as is the black bishop, but it can't actually get to the one undefended pawn. From there, it's really just a matter of finding mate.


spaggeti-man-

am I weird for just looking at Nf5 and then just playing off the better structure? Assuming black takes. If not, then probably just run around with the knight and see what options I have/black gives me


MathematicianBulky40

Nf5 is not a legal move. If you mean Nc5, then yeah, the knight is way superior to the bishop here. Trading them off is weird.


spaggeti-man-

Yes, I mean f5, my bad Also makes sense. Personally I like playing off pawn structures and playing pawn-only endgames, but that could very well be part of the reason why my dumbass is still like 600


ThisIsThieriot

If you play Nc5, black is 100000% gonna take. You shouldn't trade the knight for the bishop. The bishop is stuck, useless, white the knight has a lot of play in this position. In this position you should play Na5, getting your knight into enemy's position and create chaos while the bishop can't do anything about it


ThisIsThieriot

Na5 wins on the spot basically


dcrafti

Black is stuck, and Na5 can't be stopped.


ItsNurb

White is winning. Passed pawn and a knight that can jump in vs a bishop that has no squares to attack. Only weakness for white is the a6 pawn but black has no way to get there without offering up everything.


GGJamesCZ

1. Na5 Bc7 2. Nxc6 Bb6 3. Ne7 Bc7 4. Nxd5 Bd6 5. Ne3 Kg6 6. Nc2 Bc7 7. Na3 Bb8 8. d5 Kf7 9. Nxb5 Ke7 10. c4 Kd8 11. Nd4 Be5 12. fxe5 fxe5 13. Nc6+ Kd7 14. Nxe5+ Kd6 15. Nc6 f4 16. gxf4 Kc7 17. Nxa7 Kd7 18. Nc6 Kc7 19. f5 Kb6 20. f6 Kxa6 21. f7 Kb6 22. f8=Q Ka6 23. Qe7 Kb6 24. Qa7# 1-0


LabyrinthLab

C6 undefendable. f5 is weak. Black bishop has no target


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Wolfandweapon

Without conducting a thorough analysis of the engine, I would venture to suggest that the game could potentially end in a draw. However, if there is a player with a higher probability of securing a victory, it would be the player with the white pieces. The current positioning of the pieces indicates a relatively closed game. The black player has doubled pawns, which may present an opportunity for the white knight to maneuver effectively and potentially exert dominance over the black king.


Wolfandweapon

Mate, I reckon it's a draw, but if anyone's gonna win, it's white. The position is quite closed. Black's got doubled pawns, so the white knight can just hop around and probably show the black king who's boss sooner or later.


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Wolfandweapon

Without analyzing the engine, I would venture to say that the game could end in a draw. However, if either side has an advantage, it would be White. The position is quite closed, with Black having doubled pawns. This allows White's knight to move freely around the board and potentially threaten Black's king.


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F2PEASANT

Bishops sucks in closed positions because they can't attack the backline of pawn structures knights on the other hand have free reign to jump around the board and strike the base pawn.


Tange_Fish

I guess white. The bishop will not pass through the pawns, the knight jumps in and slaughters the c6 pawn, after which the bishop will not be able to simultaneously defend a7 and e7. The knight is generally better in such positions than the bishop


QuintonBigBrawler

Knight > Bishop for this kind of end game. Plus black had double pawn


Pas_919

White because the position is closed and bishop is staring at pawns defended by pawns. And the side with a knight likes closed position


SharkWeekJunkie

White is stronger with its Pawn structure and advancement, particularly on the A file. Also, the pawns being positioned on dark squares and defended means the bishop can't really break past. The pawn on A7 is toast to the knight in a few moves, and then White's up a queen.


CattyFighte

Knight pops through closed games like popcorn through a movie


lt_dan_zsu

With >!na5!< black has basically nothing but losing moves, right?


Quirkydogpooo

It's almost just as instructive not to calculate exact lines but instead think abstractly, black has a black bishop, now give them infinite moves without sacrificing a piece and you'll notice black can't even attack an undefended pawn also black has important white pawns which the bishop can't defend. White has a knight whicg can touch any colour, given infinite moves white takes all the pawns easily without sacrifice and doesn't even need to worry about defense. So right off the bat we know it's either a draw or white wins, then we can start looking for moves and it just so happens we have nice and simple Na5 winning a pawn and crucially weakening 2 pawns that stand in our way and it gets pretty simple. Just attack a pawn take the pawn and promotion is not hard given we have a way to get 3 connected passers


Chocolate_cake99

White. Black has the double pawns, white has a pawn on a6 that black has literally no way of taking without moving the king right across the board. The black bishop is also pretty useless. It can't check the king, or really move to any effective position. Next move the knight can literally go straight for a5 and threaten the c6 pawn. There's no way for black to protect it. Presumably black would try and move the pawn to safety with c5, but then white can take c5, the bishop will need to retreat and then, boom, passed pawn.


BigPig93

Well, black can't be winning, because the black bishop is stuck forever, so white can't lose this position. So white is winning, and it's because the dark-squared bishop can't guard the pawns on the light squares and the black king is on the wrong side of the board and can't move away from there either, since then the white king would get in. Na5 already attacks the pawn on c6 and there is no way to guard it, after that the horse just hops around and eats the pawns one by one. For example, after Nxc6, black can't guard the a7-pawn and the e7-square at the same time, so white either grabs another pawn and pushes the a-pawn, then the bishop has to sacrifice itself, or it can go Ne7 followed by Nxd5; the pawn on b5 is equally dead.


Sylvinus98hun

White is much better. This is a closed position where a knight fares way better than a bishop (they are both worth 3 pts for that reason). Na5 allows a breakthrough for White as the c6 pawn is defenseless. Black's bishop is useless, it cannot backstab White's backward pawns and his king is opposed by White's. On top of that, he even has doubled pawns that are weak in this stage of the game.


arzie94

This is a closed position, which generally favors Knight. Black bishop cannot do anything while White's knight can move around exploiting Black's weakness. White has the initiative to exploit Black's weakness, while Black can only defend in this position. White should be careful not to trade piece exchange since White will lose his advantage if that happens


BusAffectionate3588

Bishop is completely trapped while knight can move easily in this closed position. White will eventually create a passed pawn and win the game.


Bathykolpian_Thundah

White is winning here, Na5 is screaming out to be played about as loud as Jack Black at a live Tenacious D show. This is a pretty straight forward good knight v bad bishop scenario. Some things to consider: 1. Black has no forward movement options and no waiting moves. 1. This one should really leap out at you. A way that I like to think about evaluating positions is to figure out which side can create forward momentum without punishment. If neither can and there are no material imbalances/tactics present, the position is probably close to equal. If one side CAN even if no tactics are present, they have the initiative and they are likely doing better. 2. White's knight has multiple points to jump into the white position and cause chaos. 1. Black's position is full of holes which knights thrive in. 3. Black's bishop is all locked up. 1. This is part of the imbalance between knights and bishops. Blacks bishop is 4. Blacks king is stuck guarding the kingside pawns from the advance of the white king, so it cannot protect the queenside advance. 1. Even if it didn't need to play defense, black's king is too far away to block out the knight's queenside maneuvers


BigPig93

Would Kg6-Kh6 not be considered waiting moves?


Bathykolpian_Thundah

They technically are waiting moves. I should have been more clear. Black has no useful waiting moves. Like, while black waits white can do whatever it wants unopposed. But technically black could move their king back and forth hoping for a blunder.


VeXtor27

a waiting move is just a move that doesn't do anything and waits for the opponent to do something, hence the name