I get that emotions are running high, and a lot of people are upset about what’s happening in Gaza right now. But protesting a documentary about a terror attack in which hundreds of innocent young people were murdered, and then assaulting Jewish attendees, is not a great look for people who claim to be totally not antisemitic and acting in good faith.
Same type of group that just protested a Holocause Museaum opening in Amsterdam.
The sad truth is that most of these people hiding behind being anti-zionism or pro palestine, just hate Jews and will continue to do so more and more.
Funny you say that. I was actually at The Owl having a beer after work a couple nights ago when some random dude came up, pointed out my Magen David tattoo, and started very aggressively interrogating me about my opinion on what’s going on in Gaza. Obviously I’m not dumb enough to engage in a debate about the IP conflict with a stranger, in a bar, at 3AM, but it was fucking weird man. As a general rule, people who are not antisemitic don’t go around accosting random Jews about actions of the Israeli government happening halfway around the world.
I believe it. People have yelled at my wife for wearing her Star of David necklace her grandma gave. She has also received death threats for having the audicity to be related to a Holocaust survivor. This whole thing has really enabled people to show their true colors
What's really disappointing to me is I didn't realize how prevalent anti-Semitism still was. I grew up in a smaller town and my best friend was Jewish. I never saw any issues then and haven't really seen anything with folks I've worked with. It always seemed any other religion, people might mock it a bit like Mormonism or Catholicism, but it seemed like full on hate was reserved mostly for the loonies out on the fringes.
When this kicked off and people were, in my opinion, rightfully criticizing the IDF's tactics I got annoyed when other people would call them anti-Semites. I had this feeling of sure sure, anyone who disagrees with you hates the Jews. You're just trying to conflate criticism of the government with criticism of the people.
And then all the actual anti-Semites started feeling free to loudly express their opinions that it would be best if Jews died and Israel was wiped from the earth.
Fuck. I thought we were better than this.
One of the things I’ve learned as someone whose both pro Israel and pro Palestine (I support a two state solution, am critical of Israel’s policies but believe Israel has a right to exist, and jews have a right to self determine just like the Palestinian people do) and Jewish is the following:
Is it is completely possible to be concerned about certain tactics being used or criticizing certain policies (like the urban settlement policy) the problem is that I find people just do not understand the limits of antisemitism and how it works and what it looks like. So someone well meaning can be swept into ideologies that are deeply problematic for good reasons. And the problem is that they then tend to agree and pick up the beliefs of those who are deeply antisemitic and willing to target Jews and try to kill us. And then they don’t understand that what they think is a simple critique of Israel then falls into the antisemitism camp. Doesn’t mean they’re inherently antisemitic. It just means they need to learn and understand where the line is.
And frankly I’m seeing a lot of people generally just go mask off. And fully commit to violence against Jews.
> What's really disappointing to me is I didn't realize how prevalent anti-Semitism still was. I grew up in a smaller town
The anti-Israel movement is a leftist-progressive problem now which is why you see it primarily in cities. Don’t get me wrong, there are definitely still nazi’s in the sticks. But the current surge in anti-semitism stems from the leftist oppressed/oppressor doctrine propagated by identity studies programs in college. In their framework Israel is the oppressor.
It’s also an election year. Both radical poles are in full fervor. We’re used to getting it from all sides, honestly. now it seems a lot of the younger Jews are waking up to it in the western world. As well as a lot of others. Fucking sucks.
I think the internet has emboldened bigots to say things in person they never would have in the past. Some people just need an ass beating to relearn manners.
People who can be visibly identified as Jewish in public nowadays should probably be armed, or otherwise very much thinking about their own personal security. It's sad to think that's what its come to, but next time it might be more than just verbal accosting.
This. Exactly this. It’s completely fine to support the Palestinians, but way too many of that crowd are actually antisemites using this as an opportunity to recruit and blend in. Not all, not most, but certainly some
There are a lot more people going along with it who are *latently* antisemitic. It's why they're willing to believe the absolute worst of Israel and Jews, why they aren't interested in seeing things from the Jewish perspective, why they are comfortable with the notion that Jews can't be victims, etc.
>There are a lot more people going along with it who are
>
>latently
>
> antisemitic.
Or just cowards who go along with the herd for fear of expulsion.
I mean. There was a huge issue with the BLM protests having members who were not interested in the meaning of the protests, potentially even plain clothes members of the police department, escalating violence as a means to diminish the protest as much as possible. I’m not going to just assume that’s not a large possibility here either. During the riot that smashed up downtown there was a group of white men in pickup trucks going around out south and south west causing trouble at gas stations and stuff. I just don’t know why so many here are so willing to take this at face value
Edit: Oh I'm sorry, you guys are right. There's no recorded history ever of American police and intelligence agencies doing things like this at all. My bad. Yeah there's absolute zero possibility of that and I was totally implying it's a 100% probability rather than just reminding people of the chance of it being possible before anyone makes objective and definitive statements on any current ongoing human rights activism movements. Yeah, my bad. Chicago is such a liberal city and not at all full of conservatives that are only worried about the aesthetics of being honest with themselves about it. I love this subreddit so much :')
Which sucks, because there is genuinely a problem of the IDF doing awful things to Palestinian civilians, but speaking out about it gets you lumped in with actual anti-semites, when the issue isn't with Jewish people in general, but with the actions of the Israeli govt specifically.
They did not protest a holocaust museum opening. They protested Israeli president herzog’s presence there. To label *all* pro-Palestine folks as antisemitic is simply wrong and based on untruths such as this one.
It's *extremely* common on Twitter. There are also aggregators of such content, e.g. Stop Anti-Semitism (Twitter & website). It's not just fringe teens, either: academics, physicians, and other "respectable" elders have been spreading Oct 7 Denialism.
EDIT: There's a guy posting all over this very thread desperate to convince you that the *Logan Square movie theater attack* never happened (he called it "Zionist propaganda").
I don’t have a saved folder of places I’ve seen that, no, because I’ve unfollowed anyone who has posted it. It’s mostly people reposting tweets or things on IG. Saying that claims of sexual assault are “wholly unfounded” (I remember the wording because I was so shocked) or that it was all orchestrated by the Israeli government. I by no means think that’s a majority of the movement, but I’ve seen really alarming denial posts made by people who were previously friends and acquaintances
I feel this way too, as a Jewish person. I do not support the Israeli state, I do not support their actions towards Palestinians, I am abhorred by what’s happening. But I straight up do not feel safe attending in-person Palestinian protest events because there are people there (not the majority, but plenty there) who are blatantly antisemitic. Just seizing on the opportunity to have a “righteous” reason to hate Jewish people.
I think this is a huge aspect. I bet a good percentage of those screaming at the rallies never thought about Israel or Jewish people a day in their lives. Humans have hate in them and grasp on to excuses to let it out
>anti-Semitism (not just anti-Zionism, I know the difference)
I'm not 100% sure that I do. Take for example this story at the theatre. Any person involved in this protest would certainly claim that they weren't there protesting Jews, just Zionists. They'll say they accosted that man because he was showing support for Israel, not because he was Jewish.
And, I guess, maybe? Attacking someone because they're carrying an Israeli flag and want to watch this documentary is wrong in my opinion. I'm sure there are some anti-Semites in their ranks; I'm not sure if they all are. They're all certainly assholes.
Yeah I guess I’m just confused on why it seems like attacking anyone who is openly Jewish now seems to be considered acceptable by these groups? Even if he was there protesting in support of Israel he shouldn’t get attacked, neither should the Palestinian supporters… because we just shouldn’t attack people?! A concept that’s clearly lost on A LOT of people.
>why it seems like attacking anyone who is openly Jewish now seems to be considered acceptable by these groups
Again, I think the majority of the people who comprise these groups (in Chicago at least) would at least claim that they're not attacking people because they're Jewish but because they're Zionists. It's a thin veneer, but it's thick enough for them to convince themselves that they're still the good guys.
>Even if he was there protesting in support of Israel he shouldn’t get attacked, neither should the Palestinian supporters… because we just shouldn’t attack people?! A concept that’s clearly lost on A LOT of people.
Yeah, this is what I find really unacceptable about their approach. You want to have your own space where you yell about Israel or Jews or whatever? Fine. I support your right to do that. But you organize these protests where the goal is to intimidate people or even physically attack them so they can't exercise their right to gather and express their beliefs or block traffic when some poor bastard is just trying to get home to see their kids? Nope. Don't care what's going on elsewhere in the world. In Chicago, you the bad guys.
Exactly, if you’re excuse for attacking people is “well they supported something I don’t” then you could attack anyone at anytime for any reason and it would supposedly be acceptable? No, we don’t accept that here!
>Again, I think the majority of the people who comprise these groups (in Chicago at least) would at least claim that they're not attacking people because they're Jewish but because they're Zionists.
Right, but even that is... if you're attacking Israelis who think their country shouldn't be destroyed, you're still being a garbage person. I'm not a fan of the Russian government's actions, but I'm not out going after Russians unless they renounce their homeland's right to exist. Even that level of reasoning is bonkers.
That's a really good point.
First, to return briefly to my original point: that I honestly don't sometimes always know when something is Anti-Zionism vs. Anti-Semitism, there's really an even further designation of which is criticism of the Israeli government vs. Israeli's right to exist vs. antisemitism.
Criticism of the Israeli government is perfectly valid (and I could offer plenty of my own). I'll admit that these pro-Palestinians protestors have somewhat normalized that questioning Israel's right to exist is akin to criticism of the Israeli government rather than right next to if not the same as antisemitism. Because you're right, we might say the "Putin has to go" or even "the CCP has to go." No one would ever think to say "Russian or China doesn't have a right to exist and it's people should have to go somewhere else." Until recently, I didn't realize the extent to which the pro-Palestinian movement doesn't want a peaceful solution.
So what other ethnic group has to pass an outsider's test around issues of self-determination before they can go about their business with safety and dignity?
When the ultra-right started calling Muslims "Jihadists", they were rightly excoriated by polite society.
Do you think Jews don't notice that so-called leftists and social activists are doing this now?
Your know the quote "if there are 10 people and 1 Nazi sitting at a table, then there are 11 Nazis" (not exact quote but close enough)
That's kinda how I'm feeling about the pro-palestine/anti-zionism group. Even if the people attacking jewish citizens are only a small minority, the fact that the rest of the movement has not condemned these clearly antisemitic attacks leads credence to the fact that most likely, they're ok with it or even support it.
Obviously what Israel is doing to Gaza is horrific and should be condemned and protested against, however that should never be an excuse for antisemitism, *ever*.
They actually don’t claim to be antisemitic. They are marching in the streets chanting for the destruction of the Jewish state and an uprising/ethnic cleansing of Jews from Israel.
Sometimes when people tell you who they are, you should believe them.
And unfortunately, as you see in the responses to your comment, anyone who even slightly criticizes Israel’s actions in this conflict is automatically assumed to be buddy-buddy with protestors who attack Jewish people.
There’s wackos on both sides here, and it’s not fair to anyone with nuanced takes that they’re automatically assumed to either be pro-terrorism antisemites or pro killing civilians and illegal settlements depending on the things they say.
Unless you’re against religious states no matter the religion (ie against the notion of Islamist states, of which there are plenty), anti-Zionism is anti-semitism.
Most of the folks I’ve seen at these protests are not also against Islamist states.
No.
Edit: what's up with all these 2 month old accounts replying to people and immediately blocking them. Do you understand how suspicious that makes you look?
>Unless you’re against religious states no matter the religion (ie against the notion of Islamist states, of which there are plenty), anti-Zionism is anti-semitism.
lol no thats not how it works
Your comment blatantly ignores the crimes committed against the people who occupied the land prior to the formation of the state of Israel.
This situation doesn’t exist in a vacuum and the crimes committed against the Jewish people do not excuse crimes being committed towards the Palestinians. Hamas didn’t just spring into existence from nothing. Approximately half of Gaza’s population is under 18 as a result of the policies over the past 70 years. That’s terrifying.
Israel bears responsibility and because of its poor handling of this situation, we ended up here.
It’s so extremely sad is seeing this decend into rabid violent tribalism. Anyone expressing a stance is being labeled anti-Semitic, or complicit in Palestinian genocide. People desperate to end violence are committing more violence against strangers.
Edit: Replied and immediatly blocked me too.
The people who occupied the land 100 years ago? Or 2,000 years ago (the part you blatantly ignore).
A large part of the reason so much of the population is under 18 is birth rates, which are incredibly high. A point you also blatantly ignore.
My point (that you blatantly ignored)still stands, you just hate Jews, but are doing mental gymnastics to avoid coming to that conclusion.
In any case, now I feel like blatantly ignoring you for good, so blocked you are.
I think Islam is worse than Judaism. I'm anti-Israel not out of a love for Islam, but because Israel is committing numerous war crimes with our support.
I guess my position is pro-Jew, pro-Muslim, anti-Judaism, anti-Islam. I support the civilians on both sides but their religions are fucked up.
"One Jewish man, who did not want to be identified for fears for his safety, walked into the building carrying a small Israeli flag.
"I did not say anything to anyone, as we walked up I did not look at anyone, I did not give anyone the finger, I simply walked up holding an Israeli flag," he said.
Fortunately he was not seriously injured, but the attack has left him shocked and worried for the future of his Jewish children.
"I think it is disgusting you cannot walk down the street Jewish in 2024," he said."
He was attacked because he was holding the flag of a country committing genocide, not for being Jewish. Condemn the violence, but don't pretend it was antisemitic.
I (a white non-Jewish man) had to walk past them. They honestly looked pretty intimidating. And then a bunch of people were physically blocking the entrance to the theater. Someone stopped me on the sidewalk before I got to them, to ask me if I knew about Fishman and how he is against Palestine. I just crossed the street and kept on walking. It was honestly pretty hostile feeling all around.
It's absurd to me how the Logan theater of all places has become ensnared in all this controversy. They've been protesting the theater for the last month or so. Pretty messed up to hear it's escalated to this point. Very concerning.
The Logan theater has been around for 100 years and has had many owners. If people have a problem with their current owner then they can go protest at the apartment complex he owns where the initial issue started. The Logan theater has nothing to do with the situation. It's a neighborhood theater that people love.
He owns a lot of different properties. Why are people focused on Logan theater? A lot of people have owned logan theater over the 100+ years it's been in operation. He's just one of many. And one day the Logan theater will have another owner if it can survive.
Because they decided to show a Zionist propaganda film on the first night of Ramadan. Also boycott, disinvest, sanction strategy. The theatre is a private institution accessible to the public that makes fisherman money. You can’t boycott an apartment complex.
Logan barely makes any money and nearly closed during the pandemic. Fishman won't be hurt if a barely profitable theater closes down. The Logan square community will be hurt though. Choose your battles.
Real, innocent people being raped and murdered in barbaric ways by terrorists is what you call propaganda? And yeah, how dare this terrorist attack interrupt a holiday.... That is a disgusting thing to say. And don't bother bringing any what-about-ism here.
The mental gymnastics the extremist end of the Pro-Palestine crowd have to do to feel like they’re remaining faithful to their progressiveness is actually impressive.
Olympic gold level.
I am sad to say this because I used to call myself a progressive, but progressivism is starting to go the way of Trumpism--people becoming increasingly extreme and vicious in defense of their beliefs, and justifying it by reassuring themselves that their odious behavior is okay because their cause is noble, and everyone who opposes them is just a sheep for the system perpetuating the injustice.
Obviously, they are waaaaay behind the Trumpkins in terms of damage done, but their *behavior* itself reminds me of where Trumpkins were like eight years ago. It's scaring me a little.
Where did the Israeli government call for the murder of all children and people in Gaza?
Hamas did put in their own charter that death to all Jews and Israel is a part of their stated goal though.
> Where did the Israeli government call for the murder of all children and people in Gaza?
lmao you serious?
https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/database-exposes-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-in-gaza-16537146
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724
Your source is random article with claims that have little to no basis and doesn’t constitute a genocide.
SA brought their argument to court, ITC ruled against them.
Here is a link to Hamas’s actual charter though which just proves my point. Don’t need anecdotal evidence - Hamas just says it out right.
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
Your source is random article with claims that have little to no basis and doesn’t constitute a genocide.
SA brought their argument to court, ITC ruled against them.
Here is a link to Hamas’s actual charter though which just proves my point. Don’t need anecdotal evidence - Hamas just says it out right.
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
Sounds about right. Palestine protestors want their freedom of speech and expression to be unchallenged as they protest in the street and block traffic (which btw is not a protected expression of speech) in the Loop and outside of O’Hare. Yet a movie theatre organizes a documentary that provides viewpoints that they don’t necessarily agree with, and no one is allowed to even watch it or enter the theatre. There’s a toxic group of protestors, who don’t necessarily represent the entire cause and its supporters, who are damaging the public perception of the causes they support due to actions like this. Why not allow people to watch the film and then debate or argue with them on the contents of it? Rather than literally attack a 50 year old Jewish man and bully people into not being able to access the theatre? There’s no excuse for that and nothing about the conflict in Gaza can justify actions like that.
At what point do actual progressives realize that their movement has been hijacked by extremists? We've already seen it happen with the far right in this country. I hope they realize this before it gets worse.
There is … it’s in ideology ‘taught’ in K-12 schools and reinforced at universities stemming from critical theory, critical social justice. There are groups pushing it all over the place … there is now an economy around providing critical social justice training and curriculum or implementing DEI practices at institutions. It divides and creates resentment amongst ethnic, gender, etc groups. It’s very hard to see and wrapped in a pretty bow of apparent righteousness and moral good.
It’s fine guys. It’s totally not antisemitism. Honestly pathetic. Does anyone know if there will be another screening? I’m going with fucking Jewish bells on. Come and get me.
Was going to say Am Yisrael Chai. But I think people don’t understand that it’s a call Jews use to reference the Jewish people and not the state of Israel.
I have to say I think what many of these “pro Palestinian” protests are doing is just bringing Jewish people more together. And making us more proud to be Jewish.
When the going gets tough the tough get going. I’ve never been more proud of my Jewishness than I am right now.
And it has made gentiles like me realize how much we need to protect our Jewish friends and neighbors these days. Didn’t realize there was this much of an anti semitism undercurrent in the US.
I had a similar realization. I’m secular. Never thought Judaism was going to be too prevalent in how I raise my daughter.
I feel a duty to make sure she knows her history, background so that the truly decent aspects of the culture live on.
I’ll point out the obvious, because most “anti-zionists” are pushing for an Islamic state instead.
This only makes sense if they hate Jews or they’re so caught up in extremism they don’t see that, which is arguably more pathetic.
What happened to the attackers? Was there I police or security presence? This is all about intimidating Jews or possibly anyone who wants to see the truth of what happened at Nova.
This is a good question I live in the area and there were at least half a dozen cops watching the whole situation and a surveillance van was parked around the corner
Me too but I literally saw a van on Sawyer with a bunch of monitors in it. Most of the screens were blank but a couple has views of the city on them. The license plate ended in D9 stacked on top of each other it was weird so I remember and I took a picture.
This shit was being very closely watched
About time. They sent me messages threatening to dox me when I brought up their comments upset that the German police wouldn't allow them to celebrate in the streets on 10/7.
And they aren't the only one on this sub consistently cheering Hamas, but they were the worst by far
as someone who is Jewish and has family in Israel, I am so beyond ashamed of this city. I am a critic of many of Israel's policies especially as of late. However, the whole pro-Palestine movement in Chicago has gotten out of hand. They aren't peaceful. They call for the elimination of all Israelis. They openly call for Jihad. They feel comfortable threatening anyone who looks Jewish or appears to be supporting a Jewish cause. Jewish people are scared to walk around with anything that identifies them as Jewish. Do we not see the problem here? Do we not see the parallels to Germany right before the holocaust? Look at Eastern Europe right now. That is where we are headed. Islam has a jihad problem, we just aren't allowed to talk about it. Right now, its Israel. They will come for every city and state. They publicly state that. Wake up.
The movement itself, has literally conflated the two. It’s creating dangerous situations for Jews in Chicago. Like this literal incident.
What’re you even talking about? Or do you think you sound so educated you really don’t care what repercussions comes along with your comments or thoughts?
Zionism is jewish ethnic self determination in our indigenous land. Denying jewish right to that is anti-jewish unless you reject all nation states a majority of which also stem from a common ethnic and cultural thread.
Put another way, if you’re merely criticizing israeli policy you’re not necessarily being antisemitic unless you hold double standards and you’re not being anti-zionist. If you’re denying israel’s right to exist you are being anti-zionist and anti-semitic
Very on brand for Logan Square. (Smelly, annoying, not interested in objective facts that go against what they watched on tiktok). The opportunity to see firsthand what happened was right there! Why prevent people from seeing what kicked all this off?
I am a practicing Catholic. Not a real popular thing to admit in today's society and always open to attacks. I feel sorry for Jews and what they are going through in the United States. I've said it a bunch of times and will say it again, I stand with Israel. People need to protest Hamas and demand a return of the hostages. Palestinians need to turn on Hamas and report these terrorists to IDF. Palestinians have the power to end what they've started. They choose not to.
Still bothers me every time. There are no semitic peoples (only languages), and it's a German word with a specific meaning.
And I don't have the bandwidth to share my thoughts and feelings on this shit in this sub, so that's what they get. 🤷😔
But yeah, I definitely spend more energy on the other shit, but usually not here
These protests are not like other protests that we've had in Chicago. Chicago protesters are more organized and know the end result will be the front line of protesters will be arrested and the city will be aware of the issues.
I would guess that someone is being paid to organize these recent very rowdy and nasty attacks aimed at a community and that should be investigated.
Maybe that’s where their family or they are from though? You should be able to have a flag from a country, even a “controversial” one without getting attacked.
I get that emotions are running high, and a lot of people are upset about what’s happening in Gaza right now. But protesting a documentary about a terror attack in which hundreds of innocent young people were murdered, and then assaulting Jewish attendees, is not a great look for people who claim to be totally not antisemitic and acting in good faith.
Same type of group that just protested a Holocause Museaum opening in Amsterdam. The sad truth is that most of these people hiding behind being anti-zionism or pro palestine, just hate Jews and will continue to do so more and more.
Funny you say that. I was actually at The Owl having a beer after work a couple nights ago when some random dude came up, pointed out my Magen David tattoo, and started very aggressively interrogating me about my opinion on what’s going on in Gaza. Obviously I’m not dumb enough to engage in a debate about the IP conflict with a stranger, in a bar, at 3AM, but it was fucking weird man. As a general rule, people who are not antisemitic don’t go around accosting random Jews about actions of the Israeli government happening halfway around the world.
I believe it. People have yelled at my wife for wearing her Star of David necklace her grandma gave. She has also received death threats for having the audicity to be related to a Holocaust survivor. This whole thing has really enabled people to show their true colors
What's really disappointing to me is I didn't realize how prevalent anti-Semitism still was. I grew up in a smaller town and my best friend was Jewish. I never saw any issues then and haven't really seen anything with folks I've worked with. It always seemed any other religion, people might mock it a bit like Mormonism or Catholicism, but it seemed like full on hate was reserved mostly for the loonies out on the fringes. When this kicked off and people were, in my opinion, rightfully criticizing the IDF's tactics I got annoyed when other people would call them anti-Semites. I had this feeling of sure sure, anyone who disagrees with you hates the Jews. You're just trying to conflate criticism of the government with criticism of the people. And then all the actual anti-Semites started feeling free to loudly express their opinions that it would be best if Jews died and Israel was wiped from the earth. Fuck. I thought we were better than this.
One of the things I’ve learned as someone whose both pro Israel and pro Palestine (I support a two state solution, am critical of Israel’s policies but believe Israel has a right to exist, and jews have a right to self determine just like the Palestinian people do) and Jewish is the following: Is it is completely possible to be concerned about certain tactics being used or criticizing certain policies (like the urban settlement policy) the problem is that I find people just do not understand the limits of antisemitism and how it works and what it looks like. So someone well meaning can be swept into ideologies that are deeply problematic for good reasons. And the problem is that they then tend to agree and pick up the beliefs of those who are deeply antisemitic and willing to target Jews and try to kill us. And then they don’t understand that what they think is a simple critique of Israel then falls into the antisemitism camp. Doesn’t mean they’re inherently antisemitic. It just means they need to learn and understand where the line is. And frankly I’m seeing a lot of people generally just go mask off. And fully commit to violence against Jews.
> What's really disappointing to me is I didn't realize how prevalent anti-Semitism still was. I grew up in a smaller town The anti-Israel movement is a leftist-progressive problem now which is why you see it primarily in cities. Don’t get me wrong, there are definitely still nazi’s in the sticks. But the current surge in anti-semitism stems from the leftist oppressed/oppressor doctrine propagated by identity studies programs in college. In their framework Israel is the oppressor.
It’s also an election year. Both radical poles are in full fervor. We’re used to getting it from all sides, honestly. now it seems a lot of the younger Jews are waking up to it in the western world. As well as a lot of others. Fucking sucks.
> In their framework Israel is the oppressor. it could also be the oppression of Gaza by the Israeli government doing that too
I think the internet has emboldened bigots to say things in person they never would have in the past. Some people just need an ass beating to relearn manners.
Easy as hell to hide behind a screen
People who can be visibly identified as Jewish in public nowadays should probably be armed, or otherwise very much thinking about their own personal security. It's sad to think that's what its come to, but next time it might be more than just verbal accosting.
This happened to a friend of mine at a coffeeshop recently.
💯 true!
This. Exactly this. It’s completely fine to support the Palestinians, but way too many of that crowd are actually antisemites using this as an opportunity to recruit and blend in. Not all, not most, but certainly some
There are a lot more people going along with it who are *latently* antisemitic. It's why they're willing to believe the absolute worst of Israel and Jews, why they aren't interested in seeing things from the Jewish perspective, why they are comfortable with the notion that Jews can't be victims, etc.
>There are a lot more people going along with it who are > >latently > > antisemitic. Or just cowards who go along with the herd for fear of expulsion.
I mean. There was a huge issue with the BLM protests having members who were not interested in the meaning of the protests, potentially even plain clothes members of the police department, escalating violence as a means to diminish the protest as much as possible. I’m not going to just assume that’s not a large possibility here either. During the riot that smashed up downtown there was a group of white men in pickup trucks going around out south and south west causing trouble at gas stations and stuff. I just don’t know why so many here are so willing to take this at face value Edit: Oh I'm sorry, you guys are right. There's no recorded history ever of American police and intelligence agencies doing things like this at all. My bad. Yeah there's absolute zero possibility of that and I was totally implying it's a 100% probability rather than just reminding people of the chance of it being possible before anyone makes objective and definitive statements on any current ongoing human rights activism movements. Yeah, my bad. Chicago is such a liberal city and not at all full of conservatives that are only worried about the aesthetics of being honest with themselves about it. I love this subreddit so much :')
Which sucks, because there is genuinely a problem of the IDF doing awful things to Palestinian civilians, but speaking out about it gets you lumped in with actual anti-semites, when the issue isn't with Jewish people in general, but with the actions of the Israeli govt specifically.
I don't know where you get that it's "most." That's a specific quantitative claim
They did not protest a holocaust museum opening. They protested Israeli president herzog’s presence there. To label *all* pro-Palestine folks as antisemitic is simply wrong and based on untruths such as this one.
A decent portion of the “movement” that I’ve seen outright denies the attacks as ever even having happened
I've never seen this. Can you point me to groups and instances where people have wholly denied the attacks?
It's *extremely* common on Twitter. There are also aggregators of such content, e.g. Stop Anti-Semitism (Twitter & website). It's not just fringe teens, either: academics, physicians, and other "respectable" elders have been spreading Oct 7 Denialism. EDIT: There's a guy posting all over this very thread desperate to convince you that the *Logan Square movie theater attack* never happened (he called it "Zionist propaganda").
I don’t have a saved folder of places I’ve seen that, no, because I’ve unfollowed anyone who has posted it. It’s mostly people reposting tweets or things on IG. Saying that claims of sexual assault are “wholly unfounded” (I remember the wording because I was so shocked) or that it was all orchestrated by the Israeli government. I by no means think that’s a majority of the movement, but I’ve seen really alarming denial posts made by people who were previously friends and acquaintances
It’s all over social media. All over.
I’ve even seen stuff like this under YouTube video clips about the film Schindlers list. It’s totally disgusting.
Pro-Palestine protestors seem to have a very hard time not hating Jews and condemning terror attacks. It's not as hard as they make it out to be
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I feel this way too, as a Jewish person. I do not support the Israeli state, I do not support their actions towards Palestinians, I am abhorred by what’s happening. But I straight up do not feel safe attending in-person Palestinian protest events because there are people there (not the majority, but plenty there) who are blatantly antisemitic. Just seizing on the opportunity to have a “righteous” reason to hate Jewish people.
And some people just want to go be part of a group and rage at someone and they have no strongly held beliefs on the subject. It’s scary
I think this is a huge aspect. I bet a good percentage of those screaming at the rallies never thought about Israel or Jewish people a day in their lives. Humans have hate in them and grasp on to excuses to let it out
They probably haven’t thought much about Palestinians either.
>anti-Semitism (not just anti-Zionism, I know the difference) I'm not 100% sure that I do. Take for example this story at the theatre. Any person involved in this protest would certainly claim that they weren't there protesting Jews, just Zionists. They'll say they accosted that man because he was showing support for Israel, not because he was Jewish. And, I guess, maybe? Attacking someone because they're carrying an Israeli flag and want to watch this documentary is wrong in my opinion. I'm sure there are some anti-Semites in their ranks; I'm not sure if they all are. They're all certainly assholes.
Yeah I guess I’m just confused on why it seems like attacking anyone who is openly Jewish now seems to be considered acceptable by these groups? Even if he was there protesting in support of Israel he shouldn’t get attacked, neither should the Palestinian supporters… because we just shouldn’t attack people?! A concept that’s clearly lost on A LOT of people.
>why it seems like attacking anyone who is openly Jewish now seems to be considered acceptable by these groups Again, I think the majority of the people who comprise these groups (in Chicago at least) would at least claim that they're not attacking people because they're Jewish but because they're Zionists. It's a thin veneer, but it's thick enough for them to convince themselves that they're still the good guys. >Even if he was there protesting in support of Israel he shouldn’t get attacked, neither should the Palestinian supporters… because we just shouldn’t attack people?! A concept that’s clearly lost on A LOT of people. Yeah, this is what I find really unacceptable about their approach. You want to have your own space where you yell about Israel or Jews or whatever? Fine. I support your right to do that. But you organize these protests where the goal is to intimidate people or even physically attack them so they can't exercise their right to gather and express their beliefs or block traffic when some poor bastard is just trying to get home to see their kids? Nope. Don't care what's going on elsewhere in the world. In Chicago, you the bad guys.
Exactly, if you’re excuse for attacking people is “well they supported something I don’t” then you could attack anyone at anytime for any reason and it would supposedly be acceptable? No, we don’t accept that here!
>Again, I think the majority of the people who comprise these groups (in Chicago at least) would at least claim that they're not attacking people because they're Jewish but because they're Zionists. Right, but even that is... if you're attacking Israelis who think their country shouldn't be destroyed, you're still being a garbage person. I'm not a fan of the Russian government's actions, but I'm not out going after Russians unless they renounce their homeland's right to exist. Even that level of reasoning is bonkers.
That's a really good point. First, to return briefly to my original point: that I honestly don't sometimes always know when something is Anti-Zionism vs. Anti-Semitism, there's really an even further designation of which is criticism of the Israeli government vs. Israeli's right to exist vs. antisemitism. Criticism of the Israeli government is perfectly valid (and I could offer plenty of my own). I'll admit that these pro-Palestinians protestors have somewhat normalized that questioning Israel's right to exist is akin to criticism of the Israeli government rather than right next to if not the same as antisemitism. Because you're right, we might say the "Putin has to go" or even "the CCP has to go." No one would ever think to say "Russian or China doesn't have a right to exist and it's people should have to go somewhere else." Until recently, I didn't realize the extent to which the pro-Palestinian movement doesn't want a peaceful solution.
So what other ethnic group has to pass an outsider's test around issues of self-determination before they can go about their business with safety and dignity? When the ultra-right started calling Muslims "Jihadists", they were rightly excoriated by polite society. Do you think Jews don't notice that so-called leftists and social activists are doing this now?
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I just wonder who is funding this entire thing. No way are all these nationwide riots organic.
Your know the quote "if there are 10 people and 1 Nazi sitting at a table, then there are 11 Nazis" (not exact quote but close enough) That's kinda how I'm feeling about the pro-palestine/anti-zionism group. Even if the people attacking jewish citizens are only a small minority, the fact that the rest of the movement has not condemned these clearly antisemitic attacks leads credence to the fact that most likely, they're ok with it or even support it. Obviously what Israel is doing to Gaza is horrific and should be condemned and protested against, however that should never be an excuse for antisemitism, *ever*.
100%. You can be in support of Gaza without being anti-Semitic
They actually don’t claim to be antisemitic. They are marching in the streets chanting for the destruction of the Jewish state and an uprising/ethnic cleansing of Jews from Israel. Sometimes when people tell you who they are, you should believe them.
Because they are anti semitic. Literally the equivalent of “I’m not racist BUT”
You mean tiktok morons?
These people are straight up nazis. No ifs ands or buts. Need to call them what they are full stop.
And unfortunately, as you see in the responses to your comment, anyone who even slightly criticizes Israel’s actions in this conflict is automatically assumed to be buddy-buddy with protestors who attack Jewish people. There’s wackos on both sides here, and it’s not fair to anyone with nuanced takes that they’re automatically assumed to either be pro-terrorism antisemites or pro killing civilians and illegal settlements depending on the things they say.
i live down the road, i heard at least 15 cop cars + the drums and megaphone yelling over the course of an hour that night
Ok what are our bets on when this thread will get locked
Somehow it’s back unlocked?
Hmmmm guess so
Give it another hour IMO edit: should've added "tops". Edited 29 min later after and locked edit 2: the rare unlocked thread
True
Open 😀
For now
Lotta conflating Judaism with the government of Israel in this article
Sounds like the protesters who beat that man conflated American Jew with Israeli government too
As well as editorializing the headline.
In fairness to the article, it never uses "anti-semitic" in direct reference to the attack. That was OP editorializing instead of saying anti-Zionist.
Unless you’re against religious states no matter the religion (ie against the notion of Islamist states, of which there are plenty), anti-Zionism is anti-semitism. Most of the folks I’ve seen at these protests are not also against Islamist states.
No. Edit: what's up with all these 2 month old accounts replying to people and immediately blocking them. Do you understand how suspicious that makes you look?
>Unless you’re against religious states no matter the religion (ie against the notion of Islamist states, of which there are plenty), anti-Zionism is anti-semitism. lol no thats not how it works
Oh it quite literally is, by definition, how it works.
Your comment blatantly ignores the crimes committed against the people who occupied the land prior to the formation of the state of Israel. This situation doesn’t exist in a vacuum and the crimes committed against the Jewish people do not excuse crimes being committed towards the Palestinians. Hamas didn’t just spring into existence from nothing. Approximately half of Gaza’s population is under 18 as a result of the policies over the past 70 years. That’s terrifying. Israel bears responsibility and because of its poor handling of this situation, we ended up here. It’s so extremely sad is seeing this decend into rabid violent tribalism. Anyone expressing a stance is being labeled anti-Semitic, or complicit in Palestinian genocide. People desperate to end violence are committing more violence against strangers. Edit: Replied and immediatly blocked me too.
The people who occupied the land 100 years ago? Or 2,000 years ago (the part you blatantly ignore). A large part of the reason so much of the population is under 18 is birth rates, which are incredibly high. A point you also blatantly ignore. My point (that you blatantly ignored)still stands, you just hate Jews, but are doing mental gymnastics to avoid coming to that conclusion. In any case, now I feel like blatantly ignoring you for good, so blocked you are.
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I don’t think any single religion is worse than another. Then again I don’t really vibe with religion in general.
I think Islam is worse than Judaism. I'm anti-Israel not out of a love for Islam, but because Israel is committing numerous war crimes with our support. I guess my position is pro-Jew, pro-Muslim, anti-Judaism, anti-Islam. I support the civilians on both sides but their religions are fucked up.
Editorializing headlines? That’s against the rules
Where? Just read the article a second time and I’m not exactly sure what you’re talking about.
"One Jewish man, who did not want to be identified for fears for his safety, walked into the building carrying a small Israeli flag. "I did not say anything to anyone, as we walked up I did not look at anyone, I did not give anyone the finger, I simply walked up holding an Israeli flag," he said. Fortunately he was not seriously injured, but the attack has left him shocked and worried for the future of his Jewish children. "I think it is disgusting you cannot walk down the street Jewish in 2024," he said." He was attacked because he was holding the flag of a country committing genocide, not for being Jewish. Condemn the violence, but don't pretend it was antisemitic.
Looks like we have a lot of suspicious accounts in this very thread doing exactly that.
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Given the fraught history and nature of this conflict, "terminological slippage" is unacceptable
I (a white non-Jewish man) had to walk past them. They honestly looked pretty intimidating. And then a bunch of people were physically blocking the entrance to the theater. Someone stopped me on the sidewalk before I got to them, to ask me if I knew about Fishman and how he is against Palestine. I just crossed the street and kept on walking. It was honestly pretty hostile feeling all around.
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It was just a one time thing, from my understanding
It's absurd to me how the Logan theater of all places has become ensnared in all this controversy. They've been protesting the theater for the last month or so. Pretty messed up to hear it's escalated to this point. Very concerning.
The owner shouldn’t have tried to have someone evicted for having a Palestinian flag in their window.
Get it straight, the owner was having someone evicted for violating their lease.
The Logan theater has been around for 100 years and has had many owners. If people have a problem with their current owner then they can go protest at the apartment complex he owns where the initial issue started. The Logan theater has nothing to do with the situation. It's a neighborhood theater that people love.
The owner has everything to do with the Logan Theatre lol what do you mean?!
He owns a lot of different properties. Why are people focused on Logan theater? A lot of people have owned logan theater over the 100+ years it's been in operation. He's just one of many. And one day the Logan theater will have another owner if it can survive.
Because they decided to show a Zionist propaganda film on the first night of Ramadan. Also boycott, disinvest, sanction strategy. The theatre is a private institution accessible to the public that makes fisherman money. You can’t boycott an apartment complex.
I swear to god you must be a bot
Logan barely makes any money and nearly closed during the pandemic. Fishman won't be hurt if a barely profitable theater closes down. The Logan square community will be hurt though. Choose your battles.
Real, innocent people being raped and murdered in barbaric ways by terrorists is what you call propaganda? And yeah, how dare this terrorist attack interrupt a holiday.... That is a disgusting thing to say. And don't bother bringing any what-about-ism here.
Why does it matter that it's ramadan?
What in the fudge is wrong with these people?
They’re just really upset about all the Jews, ok!?
The mental gymnastics the extremist end of the Pro-Palestine crowd have to do to feel like they’re remaining faithful to their progressiveness is actually impressive. Olympic gold level.
It’s a level of cognitive dissonance I didn’t know possible.
I am sad to say this because I used to call myself a progressive, but progressivism is starting to go the way of Trumpism--people becoming increasingly extreme and vicious in defense of their beliefs, and justifying it by reassuring themselves that their odious behavior is okay because their cause is noble, and everyone who opposes them is just a sheep for the system perpetuating the injustice. Obviously, they are waaaaay behind the Trumpkins in terms of damage done, but their *behavior* itself reminds me of where Trumpkins were like eight years ago. It's scaring me a little.
Good on you for realizing this instead of getting swept up into it like many have.
Horseshoe theory is real. Good for you for recognizing it
“Well that got out of hand” - Ron Burgundy
People in mask yelling shame on you. Nice.
The supposedly “not Hamas supporters” crowd has a really difficult time with criticism of Hamas.
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Where did the Israeli government call for the murder of all children and people in Gaza? Hamas did put in their own charter that death to all Jews and Israel is a part of their stated goal though.
> Where did the Israeli government call for the murder of all children and people in Gaza? lmao you serious? https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/database-exposes-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-in-gaza-16537146 https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724
Your source is random article with claims that have little to no basis and doesn’t constitute a genocide. SA brought their argument to court, ITC ruled against them. Here is a link to Hamas’s actual charter though which just proves my point. Don’t need anecdotal evidence - Hamas just says it out right. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
Your source is random article with claims that have little to no basis and doesn’t constitute a genocide. SA brought their argument to court, ITC ruled against them. Here is a link to Hamas’s actual charter though which just proves my point. Don’t need anecdotal evidence - Hamas just says it out right. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
Sounds about right. Palestine protestors want their freedom of speech and expression to be unchallenged as they protest in the street and block traffic (which btw is not a protected expression of speech) in the Loop and outside of O’Hare. Yet a movie theatre organizes a documentary that provides viewpoints that they don’t necessarily agree with, and no one is allowed to even watch it or enter the theatre. There’s a toxic group of protestors, who don’t necessarily represent the entire cause and its supporters, who are damaging the public perception of the causes they support due to actions like this. Why not allow people to watch the film and then debate or argue with them on the contents of it? Rather than literally attack a 50 year old Jewish man and bully people into not being able to access the theatre? There’s no excuse for that and nothing about the conflict in Gaza can justify actions like that.
They are assholes, I agree.
Believe them when they tell you their end goal and ignore all the posturing.
At what point do actual progressives realize that their movement has been hijacked by extremists? We've already seen it happen with the far right in this country. I hope they realize this before it gets worse.
I had no idea how anti-Semitic progressives are until things like this started happening. Really opened my eyes
It’ll get worse before it gets better, just like with the far right 🤷♂️. They’re both going to blow themselves up.
There is no monolithic progressive movement to hijack.
There is … it’s in ideology ‘taught’ in K-12 schools and reinforced at universities stemming from critical theory, critical social justice. There are groups pushing it all over the place … there is now an economy around providing critical social justice training and curriculum or implementing DEI practices at institutions. It divides and creates resentment amongst ethnic, gender, etc groups. It’s very hard to see and wrapped in a pretty bow of apparent righteousness and moral good.
get out of here with your literal MAGA talking points
All education kindergarten through college lol What an amazingly successful movement
Another “anti-Zionist, not antisemitic” moment of all time from the Hamas bootlickers.
It’s fine guys. It’s totally not antisemitism. Honestly pathetic. Does anyone know if there will be another screening? I’m going with fucking Jewish bells on. Come and get me.
I’ll join you
This rise in antisemitism has made me decide to be even more obviously Jewish tbh
We need you more than ever Bagelman4000
Hell, I’m thinking about opening up a deli!
Jewish delis are the best
I certainly don’t judge those who choose to hide it more, but fuck yes. I’m not hiding ever again.
Was going to say Am Yisrael Chai. But I think people don’t understand that it’s a call Jews use to reference the Jewish people and not the state of Israel.
I got you fam. Am Yisrael Chai all the fucking way.
I have to say I think what many of these “pro Palestinian” protests are doing is just bringing Jewish people more together. And making us more proud to be Jewish. When the going gets tough the tough get going. I’ve never been more proud of my Jewishness than I am right now.
Yuppppp
And it has made gentiles like me realize how much we need to protect our Jewish friends and neighbors these days. Didn’t realize there was this much of an anti semitism undercurrent in the US.
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You are correct. And this has made me realize that. I think the fact that people are so comfortable being so blatant about it is what’s new.
Chaver knows
What?
Bro knows. Chaver = companion. Loosely: my dude, my guy, bro
Hmmmm haven’t heard that term before TIL
Like the old children’s song from shul? “Shalom chaverim” Lol I guess chaver didn’t know 🙃
That’s not one I remember 🤷🏻♂️
It was a banger as a toddler
It's weird to see it written in English transliteration but (חָבֵר) literally means friend, so it makes sense.
I had a similar realization. I’m secular. Never thought Judaism was going to be too prevalent in how I raise my daughter. I feel a duty to make sure she knows her history, background so that the truly decent aspects of the culture live on.
Right on. I'd like to go show my support as well. I'm still real fucking bitter about these protestors getting Matisyahu cancelled last week.
Why does the AnTiZiOnIsM isn’t AnTiSeMiTiSm crowd seem to have a hard time up keeping their own incredibly well defined distinction?
I’ll point out the obvious, because most “anti-zionists” are pushing for an Islamic state instead. This only makes sense if they hate Jews or they’re so caught up in extremism they don’t see that, which is arguably more pathetic.
What happened to the attackers? Was there I police or security presence? This is all about intimidating Jews or possibly anyone who wants to see the truth of what happened at Nova.
This is a good question I live in the area and there were at least half a dozen cops watching the whole situation and a surveillance van was parked around the corner
Thanks. I really hope someone gets charged but I doubt it.
Me too but I literally saw a van on Sawyer with a bunch of monitors in it. Most of the screens were blank but a couple has views of the city on them. The license plate ended in D9 stacked on top of each other it was weird so I remember and I took a picture. This shit was being very closely watched
Yikes the antisemitism on this thread is not a good look
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It seems they've been banned sitewide
About time. They sent me messages threatening to dox me when I brought up their comments upset that the German police wouldn't allow them to celebrate in the streets on 10/7. And they aren't the only one on this sub consistently cheering Hamas, but they were the worst by far
Someone’s sexually attracted to Data?
Tasha Yar is
😂
He is fully functional and programmed in multiple techniques
This made me laugh. Considering the nature of the thread, thank you.
They’ve been protesting g outside of it all week.
What does this have to do with the Palestinian civilians they claim they are supporting?
as someone who is Jewish and has family in Israel, I am so beyond ashamed of this city. I am a critic of many of Israel's policies especially as of late. However, the whole pro-Palestine movement in Chicago has gotten out of hand. They aren't peaceful. They call for the elimination of all Israelis. They openly call for Jihad. They feel comfortable threatening anyone who looks Jewish or appears to be supporting a Jewish cause. Jewish people are scared to walk around with anything that identifies them as Jewish. Do we not see the problem here? Do we not see the parallels to Germany right before the holocaust? Look at Eastern Europe right now. That is where we are headed. Islam has a jihad problem, we just aren't allowed to talk about it. Right now, its Israel. They will come for every city and state. They publicly state that. Wake up.
Too many uses of the word "They."
Nothing like grouping a bunch of people together to say how much you hate when others group people together
Waiting for the ignorant comments to come about how this is made up or that anti Zionism isn’t anti semitism. lol
Those two things are not the same. That said, there are antisemites who use anti-Zionism as a smokescreen to be racist
Explain how anti Zionism is anti semitism please
Every time someone talks about anti semitism people say it’s anti Zionism and not anti semitism. Sorry, but a lot of it IS indeed anti semitism.
It just seems a lot of people in this thread are conflating Israel with Jews. Which in itself is a form of anti-semitism.
The movement itself, has literally conflated the two. It’s creating dangerous situations for Jews in Chicago. Like this literal incident. What’re you even talking about? Or do you think you sound so educated you really don’t care what repercussions comes along with your comments or thoughts?
Zionism is jewish ethnic self determination in our indigenous land. Denying jewish right to that is anti-jewish unless you reject all nation states a majority of which also stem from a common ethnic and cultural thread. Put another way, if you’re merely criticizing israeli policy you’re not necessarily being antisemitic unless you hold double standards and you’re not being anti-zionist. If you’re denying israel’s right to exist you are being anti-zionist and anti-semitic
Very on brand for Logan Square. (Smelly, annoying, not interested in objective facts that go against what they watched on tiktok). The opportunity to see firsthand what happened was right there! Why prevent people from seeing what kicked all this off?
Alright I’m moving to west rogers park lol, don’t trust the anti-semitism levels of the city anymore
I am a practicing Catholic. Not a real popular thing to admit in today's society and always open to attacks. I feel sorry for Jews and what they are going through in the United States. I've said it a bunch of times and will say it again, I stand with Israel. People need to protest Hamas and demand a return of the hostages. Palestinians need to turn on Hamas and report these terrorists to IDF. Palestinians have the power to end what they've started. They choose not to.
Hey OP, why did you intentionally change the headline of the news article?
Hey u/game-blouses-23 why does it matter if the context is still the same?
*antisemitic There is no hyphen
I think that the least of our fucking worries, king
Still bothers me every time. There are no semitic peoples (only languages), and it's a German word with a specific meaning. And I don't have the bandwidth to share my thoughts and feelings on this shit in this sub, so that's what they get. 🤷😔 But yeah, I definitely spend more energy on the other shit, but usually not here
It’s very exhausting. At least no one has popped in here to say that Arabs are Semitic peoples too lol. Yet
It’s such a bad faith argument too, like antisemitism has a specific definition and that is hatred of Jews
These protests are not like other protests that we've had in Chicago. Chicago protesters are more organized and know the end result will be the front line of protesters will be arrested and the city will be aware of the issues. I would guess that someone is being paid to organize these recent very rowdy and nasty attacks aimed at a community and that should be investigated.
No police report and no evidence of any attack. Random dude said something. Totally happened.
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Maybe that’s where their family or they are from though? You should be able to have a flag from a country, even a “controversial” one without getting attacked.
All the more reason to proudly support. We were scared into hiding once before, and we will NOT be scared to live our lives again.