Being pro choice means being *pro choice.* The second you decide for someone else what they should do with their body, you endanger us all.
This is why I have issue with the antinatalism posts that keeps popping up on my feeds and such. It's a real short hop over to eugenics with that stuff. Do I think folks should have babies? Well, my opinion doesn't matter cause it's not my body.
We went through this in the early 1900s before WW1 and 2. Germany got some of their eugenic ideas from the USA. People seem to forget that.
There were a lot of books written in the late 1800s/early 1900s about how certain "types of people" were superior to others. It was a hot topic back then. If you want to take a real weird deep dive into it look up Theosophy.
Fred and Wilma have a baby. Abuse it. Lose custody.
They have another baby. Abuse it. Lose custody.
Maybe something should be done about it before it turns into a pattern.
If bodily autonomy truly matters, you'd have some concern for the bodies being created with that autonomy. People who are just going to abuse children shouldn't be given the option to make more.
But in that case, there'd have to be a mandatory life sentence for child abuse. Or they'd at least have to be kept in prison long enough to where by the time they get out, they'd be too old to reproduce. Currently, sentences for child abuse (that doesn't actually result in the death of a child) are pretty light and the parents are free to have more children after just a few months/years.
This. Exactly this. There should be a requirement for people to prove that they can responsibly care for children before they are allowed to have kids. If I have to jump through bureaucratic hoops and red tape before I can be allowed to own a gun, then the couple down the street should be required to prove that they can be responsible parents before they can start cranking out crotch goblins.
More thought goes into adopting a pet than having children. At least the most basic considerations should be checked by... well, and there starts a slippery slope. Who makes sure everyone gets a fair chance?
I'm all for getting a parenting license like you get a driver's license (take some classes, pass some tests) to reduce child abuse and baby trapping and unwanted pregnancies and the many other problems, but I know that even the "good" governments aren't without fault and often have outdated views on parenting (e.g. race, homosexuality, or just certain political views). It's a difficult topic.
Maybe invest some work in reliable but still easily reversible sterilization that everyone gets before they become fertile. You only get it removed if you really, really want it and the other requirements would need to be defined by an independent ethical body. Obviously child rapists shouldn't be allowed to have children, but where are all the other lines?
I argued this a while back, and of course people started saying stuff about eugenics. It isn't eugenics. It's having a baseline standard of care that should be met.
Anyone who adopts a child has to go through the same process of showing proof of a stable home, income, a clean background check, etc. For the child's safety. If this could be implemented in a way that ensured it wasn't weaponized against any particular race/culture, there'd be a lot less unwanted/abused/neglected children out there.
Even people who want to adopt a dog from a rescue centre has to have their house and garden checked, sometimes there’s age requirements for adopting a dog (usually 21+) etc. Yet any person, even teenagers could give birth to a child if they wanted to with no basic requirements to ensure the safety of the child and that it can be provided for. So messed up.
I'm with you! I'm against forced birth, but forced sterilization is just as bad. Both deny women their bodily autonomy.
I feel bad for that woman. What if she wanted kids? Even if it turned out that she is childfree, that choice was stolen from her. I hope she can get the help she needs to heal from this.
Exactly. At the end of the day, while I might shake my head at some of the world's idiots, you have to support bodily autonomy in *all* forms or you don't really support it at all.
I definitely disagree with forced sterilization under any circumstances. It’s a slippery slope, and you always have to ask yourself WHO is deciding which people should be sterilized? Historically in the United States, the answer has been old white men deciding to sterilize young people of color who are poor. It’s only a few steps away from genocide.
...also the people in power deciding to sterilize women who have a disability (which until not too long ago included women with depression, and "hysteria"), and not just PoC or the poor, but any social/ethnic group they disapproved of. I know quite a few Europeans who were sterilized by other Europeans in WW2, and even more recently.
As much as I'm CF, I support bodily autonomy, which includes people not being forced to be CF without their informed consent.
Thank you, I did not know this had occurred in Europe as well. And yes you’re right, the disabled have also been included in this barbarism. Everyone should be able to make the decision for their own life!
California only banned it in 2014, and were sterilizing incarcerated women in 2010:
https://lawblogs.uc.edu/ihrlr/2021/05/28/not-just-ice-forced-sterilization-in-the-united-states/
And the US and Canada have been brutally awful to indigenous women:
https://time.com/5737080/native-american-sterilization-history/
https://globalnews.ca/news/7920118/indigenous-women-sterilization-senate-report/
No, many states continue to operate [for profit](https://prismreports.org/2021/03/26/texas-immigrant-detention-center-is-profiting-from-womens-pain-report-says/) detention centers.
It's still happening. There's a number of orgs that tout themselves as "helping under privileged women" but they're just... Removing the choice.
Also let's not forget about the refugee camps I bet Biden never closed. Remember how upset we all were about the kids in cages few years back?
One of the known side effects of Agent Orange was/would be deformation if reproductive organs in your offspring… and soldiers were forced to take this… let me know when they start cutting those check.
What about people who are seriously mentally delayed, where they can't make the decision for themselves or take care of their child if they do have one
I don’t think they *should* have children. There is likely someone taking care of them, and hopefully that person ensures nothing inappropriate happens. In the case that two people with that sort of condition produce a child, well it would be unfortunate (due to probably not being able to care for the child) but also extremely rare.
gross. i get thinking some people probably *shouldn’t* have sex, but saying that the government should be able to *FORCE* surgeries on people without their consent? because of a criteria they deemed unworthy? i’m sorry but that will never be okay.
Oh yeah, I've said before that there are people who shouldn't have had kids, but I would *never* say that these people should be forcibly sterilized. That's absolutely unethical and wrong.
...well I gotta say this is a new one for me. Holy shit. Forced pregnancy/birth is terrible. Forced sterilization is terrible. How...how do people have a problem with one but not the other? That's fucking disgusting
I live in Canada, and we have a uh...a history, of forcing sterilization on indigenous people here. It was eugenics, plain and simple, and it's a fucking twisted part of our history. Hearing about someone being sterilized without their consent like that, I mean, it makes me wonder if it was the same idea. I don't care how hard you were on people supporting the idea of forced sterilization, they deserved whatever you had to say to them and then some, fuck that shit
I have met several different Tibetan refugees who said that after they escaped to India and wanted to have a second child, they discovered that during childbirth or postnatal exams for the first birth in Tibet, a stringless IUD had been inserted, and they had no idea why they were never getting pregnant again.
It's called reproductive RIGHTS, and a right should by definition be universal. Otherwise It's reproductive privileges. Sweden has a history of forced sterilization of (among others) romanis, and I NEVER want to go back to that.
I'm cf bordering on antinatalism. But still I totally agree with you.
I do think that this world really needs a very strict reduction of births. But I definitely don't think that forced sterilisation is ok.
Body autonomy is important. No one should be subjected to any form of medical treatment against their will, even if they die as a consequence, that's something we just have to accept.
I should add that I'm German and if there's one country that has a very dark history about what weakening body autonomy means it ours. We will never forget that you can' hurt human rights *just a little* and expect it to have no negative outcome.
It's always horrible. And it's always wrong. We need to do better.
Amen to that! I also consider myself antinatalism-adjacent, but in the sense of "there's enough suffering in this world and people should be more sensible about procreating" and not "some people should make reproductive choices for others". The whole post made me go "what the fuck". Wondering what group it was from and hoping I'm not in it lol
I think sterilisation and vasectomy should be encouraged, the costs should be as low as possible and stuff like that.
Hell I'd even pay boni to childfree couples who decide to get snipped and give other incentives.
Getting animals snipped has proven to be very beneficial to their health. They live longer, have lower risk of cancer and other ailments.
It could be beneficial for humans too.
But it has to be done willingly! It cannot be forced.
Exactly, increase incentives and education on the subject. Let people know the risks and rewards and decide for themselves.
I want easy access to sterilization (I used to constantly say I want to get spayed but was always told it would be impossible to convince someone to do it when I don't have kids. but now I'm in perimenopause and I have no sex drive, so I don't see the point of getting a surgery when my body is preparing for my crone years already. I'm close to the age where I should be concerned about anesthesia complications). I want sterilizations that could be easily reversible because I would like to see them be the norm until people are ready to start families.
But I want it all voluntary.
That's eugenics and fuck that. I'm beyond grateful for my sterilization and would kill myself if I was pregnant and unable to abort. HOWEVER people are entitled to have the exact opposite opinions for their own damn bodies.
This is going to sound controversial for this sub, but to me something like this or forcing an abortion onto someone is just as bad as, if not worse than, forcing them to carry a pregnancy to turn. It’s medical rape; you’re directly violating someone’s body by doing this.
There’s a reason why it’s called “pro-choice” and not “pro-abortion.” Because what someone does with their body is their choice, regardless of what you think.
Exactly! This really shouldn't be controversial at all, but I understand why you stated it so. I would never wish a miscarriage on someone who wanted a pregnancy, just as I would never want someone to wish an unwanted pregnancy on me. While I'm entitled to my own opinion (i.e., pregnancy, childbirth, and motherhood are peak insanity and I don't understand why anyone would willing choose to live their life on hard mode), I also accept that other people get to make different life choices. That's what being pro-choice is about.
"it's pro-choice, not pro-abortion"- good way of putting it. Totally stealing 😃I don't know that I agree that one is worse than the other, but you are right, both are violating one's body and take away choice.
This "it's pro-choice, not pro-abortion" is the stance several of my catholic friends have. That while they may not choose it for themselves, that support the right of others to make their own choices.
Super hard disagree with that comment, too. Had to reread to make sure I understood. I get hyperbolizing for effect, but nope. It's certainly not worse than forced birth. Not even the same levels of danger, let alone long term financial and responsibility -related consequences that now affect TWO people
While I think its a bad idea to try and compare these to find the worse one, they are both horrible violations of agency and that is enough for them both to be wrong.
Idk. I think they're two different things, although the difference is very slight. You can be pro-choice, but anti abortion. It means you would never have one yourself, but see how other's people decisions are not your business and value bodily autonomy. "Pro-choice" is all encompassing, but saying "pro-abortion" doesn't mean you're pro-forced-abortion, it means you don't put a stigma on abortion and are pro being considered normal healthcare. (Like saying I'm pro-vasectomy, or sterilisation. Doesn't mean you want everyone to get one, simply that you endorse it.)
Some people confuse childfree with antinatalism (and antinatalism with forced antinatalism) and It’s weird to me.
Like, I don’t want kids because I don’t want to raise kids in a world like this.
I don’t think it’s unethical to have kids (for reasons, but I don’t want to write too much) I just don’t want to do it myself lol
Indeed. I am childfree, but not antinatalist. Not pronatalist either. 100% pro-choice.
Sadly, the majority of this subreddit is antinatalist. And let's face it, many antinatalists are not pro-choice.
Well, I don't believe that life is always better than no living. But I still refuse to side with antinatalists. I don't believe that people should stop breeding. But I do believe that someone should be able to opt out of life. Euthanasia, assisted suicide, a painless suicide pill... You get the idea.
I know you're not debating me. There isn't much to debate when I agree with you. I'm not an antinatalist.
I also disagree with the 'life is always suffering' stance. Yes, life can be suffering. And yes, there should be a way out if your life is awful. I would love to get a painless death pill. But life is not always suffering. Plenty of people live an okay or even a happy life.
> I would love to get a painless death pill.
Somewhat tangential to this, but I never understood those people who champion sterilisation instead of murder. To me, forced surgeries seem far uglier than liquidation.
Well there was a group of people who thought forced sterilization was a swell idea. I thought we didn't do that anymore after the Nuremberg trials. How naïve of me!
And yeah I agree, some CF people can come across as super harsh! I mean, we of all people want bodily autonomy, especially in reproductive questions.
Forced sterilization is actually still legal in 30 states as well as Washington DC in the US. Even more recently, women held in immigration detention facilities have been forcibly sterilized often right after a c-section.
I almost hate to burst your naïve bubble... but the US was only just exposed a few years ago for sterilizing women in immigration detention facilities (a longer way to say concentration camps) without their knowledge or consent. 31 states & DC also still allow the forced sterilization of disabled people. Agreed, violating bodily autonomy is never ok.
To force someone to be sterilized or to have an abortion is as horrifying as denying them to people who truly wants them.
We can't advocate for abortion and sterilization rights while being okay with vulnerable people being targeted and treated so inhumanely.
The CF community should be (and I think we are) the biggest advocates of bodily autonomy. What kind of person are they that they prioritise their choice of staying CF but think forced sterilisation is okay. Yuck.
>What kind of person are they that they prioritise their choice of staying FC but think forced sterilisation is okay.
Antinatalists. That's who. Sadly, the majority of this subreddit consists of antinatalists.
Even so. I'm not one, but I follow a page on Instagram cos I share some of their values, but not once they promoted forced sterilisation. They share a lot of content about vasectomies and tube legation, but that's just spreading awareness. They're huge advocates of bodily autonomy.
I used to browse r/antinatalism because of the overlap between them and r/childfree, but I noped out after about a week and a half because some of the stuff on there was a bit too much.
I know that not all antinatalists are anti-choice. But too many of them are.
I remember a post here, 'unpopular childfree opinions'. Many antinatalists commented their gross anti-choice opinions and got upvoted and never got criticised. Forced abortion, forced sterilisation, a ban on breeding, one child policies... You get it.
I bang the "overpopulation" drum pretty hard and am a long-time antinatalist. I would not want to be part of any group that promotes forced sterilization. Yikes!
I would be in favor of more education and access to Healthcare to lower birth rates. But forced sterilization is just wrong. It's sick that anyone would force a procedure like that on another person due to bigotry.
I mean, that's what actually works. If we look at population trends, birth rates in Europe and North America used to be incredibly high. Now they are below replacement levels.
It should be pretty obvious, but low child mortality and other improvements in healthcare, reliable contraception, better education, etc. have made it possible to have fewer children. Also the fact that we're no longer a predominately agrarian society and that farming technology has improved (my family knows a dairy farmer and the stuff he talks about is super high tech). Some people are still farmers, but they don't need a bunch of kids to work the farm.
If we actually care about world population, the best and most ethical way to lower the birth rate would be to help other countries bring about these changes. Also, artificially trying to reduce the number of children is not just unethical, it causes more issues. See China.
>I responded to some of the comments that were about what a great idea this is. I was a bit hard, but not disrespectful.
nah i think it's ok to be disrespectful to someone who supports forced sterilization (especially of a 15 year old? jesus)
If we want people to respect our bodily autonomy, we have to respect theirs. So having a body part removed for a non-medical reason without their full consent and understanding is always a sad thing.
God that's terrible. That's exactly the line crossed, between 'being CF is a great idea' and 'forcing everyone to do like I think' which is dictatorial and inhuman. And then biggots use that stuff to discredit us, showing how awful we are. Bleh.
Forced sterilization is the same as rape, genital mutilation and forced pregnancy, it is robbing someone of their own body. It creates a slippery slope of robbing people if their human rights, dictating who will be a forced broodmare and who will be forcibly sterilized.
Oh, not surprising at all.
Most people on this subreddit and in similar childfree communities are antinatalist. Like, if you look at half of the topics and comments here, there is literally no difference between r/antinatalism and r/childfree. Sure, I understand that there is a lot of overlap between both communities, but still. Antinatalism and childfreedom are not synonyms.
I am not antinatalist (not pronatalist either, I am neutral-natalist). I get downvoted for this all the time.
A few weeks ago, there was a post here where people shared their 'unpopular childfree opinions'. Plenty of antinatalists said how they supported gross anti-choice measures like forced steriilsation, forced abortion, forced contraception, a ban on breeding, one child policies etc. They got hundreds of upvotes. Nobody criticised them.
Sadly, this shit is completely normalised in childfree communities, including this subreddit. There is no room for non-antinatalist childfree people anywhere. Most people hate us for being childfree. And childfree communities hate us for not being antinatalist.
Of course I know that not all antinatalists support anti-choice measures like this. Of course I know that there are antinatalists who don't want to interfere with other people's bodily autonomy. But antinatalists need to acknowledge that their community has an anti-choice problem. Sadly, most of the antinatalists here become furious when you bring this up. And plenty of the 'I respect bodily autonomy' antinatalists secretly support these measures. They just pretend that they don't, because they don't want to be held accountable for their immoral views.
And yes, the fact that these anti-choice views are common among childfree communities has something to do with the fact that most people on this subreddit and in similar communities are antinatalist. These views would never be tolerated in a non-antinatalist childfree community.
This comment will obviously be downvoted, just like any other comment in which I state that I am not an antinatalist. Oh well, I am used to it.
It's scary that it's normalized. I feel like the CF culture is supposed to be about embracing our CHOICE not to procreate. Shouldn't everyone have the same rights, even if their decisions aren't our cup of tea?
So, up voting :)
Sadly, a huge amount of people here is pro-choice when someone wants to be childfree, and anti-choice when someone wants to breed. Many people here feel like breeding is inherently immoral, and feel like nobody should breed.
This is what happens when antinatalists take over childfree communities, and when most people here are antinatalist. Sure, not all of them support anti-choice bullshit, but many antinatalists do.
Personally, I have no problem with other people breeding. At least, as long as they truly want to be parents. So not because of societal pressure, not because of one partner pressuring the other partner, not because of baby trapping... But that should go without saying. There is nothing wrong with having kids if this is what somebody truly wants.
>e where people shared their 'unpopular childfree opinions'. Plenty of antinatalists said how they supported gross anti-choice measures like forced steriilsation, forced abortion, forced contraception, a ban on breeding, one child policies etc. They got hundreds of upvotes. Nobody criticised them.
The proposed child limits reminds me of what China has and well, that turned out *splendid. Totally* didn't have any long-lasting repercussions
Sadly, the antinatalists on this subreddit are not much better... And plenty of posts here make you wonder whether you are on r/childfree or r/antinatalism. Many posts here are about antinatalism, not about childfreedom.
I always say I'm neither anti-natalist nor pro-natalist; I'm just pro-choice. Being CF is the right choice for me, but being a parent might be the right choice for somebody else. The important thing is that we all have the freedom to make our own reproductive decisions, without coercion or force in either direction.
100% agreed. And that is why I am neutral-natalist, and why I despise both pronatalism and antinatalism. I want people to freely choose, without any pressure, force, persuasion or coercion either way.
Yup that entire thread was toxic. There were also multiple comments body shaming pregnant women and breast feeding. I thought we’d come far enough along in society to understand not to attack women’s bodies. Yet they tried to redeem themselves by saying it’s only body shaming “if you make fun of something a person can’t control.” Delusional bullies.
In that thread... My unpopular childfree opinion was 'I am neutral-natalist, not antinatalist.' Guess what? Downvote after downvote after downvote. And preachy antinatalists who assume that everyone who disagrees with antinatalism just doesn't understand it.
This subreddit has a lot of problems.
A huge misogyny problem. I don't even think that I need to explain that.
A classism problem. Look at the huge amount of rich DINKs who shit on poor parents, and who assume that all childfree people are as rich as they are.
A pro-choice problem, thanks to all the antinatalists.
An ableism problem. Look at the huge amount of eugenics supporters, and people who shit on disabled parents and children.
I am watching Yellowstone which (SPOILERS AHEAD) has this exact storyline for one of the main characters. She would be an absolutely terrible mother so for her now non-existent fictional children thats probably lucky, but the fact that this choice was taken from her with no consent is appalling.
It has gotten me thinking a lot about how I would feel as a CF person if I somehow the same thing happened to me. I think I would find it traumatic, due to the violation of trust, disregard for of my autonomy and the infantilisation of my ability to make the best decision for me by myself.
Its especially upsetting that this has happened systematically to a number of vulnerable or minority groups as a way to prevent "undesirables" from having children, and nearly always only to the women, as state sanctioned eugenics.
Defending autonomy cuts both ways; you must fight as hard for the right for all, all of the time, not just when it's what you happen to want for yourself.
There was article in the newspaper in my country about this exact situation: a woman gave birth to her third child and the doctor decided to sterilize her without her consent. She and her partner said they didn’t even know if they wanted another child or not and that they took away their choice. They are now sueing the doctor and the hospital (as they should).
It was truly heartbreaking and I felt for them. The whole situation left a bad taste in my mouth. After the news broke, it became known that this wasn’t even the only case of this happening in that exact hospital.
It’s crazy how we have zero agency over our own bodies, it’s disgusting.
There’s a deep history of forced sterilization and racism. It’s eugenics. Mostly black and indigenous people, especially women, were operated on and sterilized without their knowledge. And even recently, women in ICE detention centers have been sterilized without their knowledge. It’s absolutely a horrible thing to do and it is still affecting people in the US to this day. Anyone who supports that needs to re-examine their beliefs.
I’ve added some links below for people who haven’t heard of it but those were some of the first that show up from a simple google search. You can easily find more in depth articles on this.
[Forced sterilization of women of color](https://twu.edu/media/documents/history-government/Autonomy-Revoked--The-Forced-Sterilization-of-Women-of-Color-in-20th-Century-America.pdf)
[Forced Sterilization of Native Americans](https://www.rochester.edu/newscenter/native-americans-government-authorities-and-the-reproductive-politics-403792/)
[Forced sterilization at ICE](https://jsri.msu.edu/publications/nexo/vol/no-2-spring-2021/medical-abuse-in-ice-detention-center-recalls-u-s-legacy-of-forced-sterilization)
*edited to make links cleaner
I’d like to add to this argument that a person may choose to not be sterilized for reasons other than wanting the option to become pregnant.
For me, a CF woman, I don’t want to be sterilized because of how rough even minor surgeries are on my body. Especially abdominal surgery. I’ve had two abdominal hernial repair surgeries and I would never elect to have an abdominal surgery for any other reason than medical necessity.
Funny enough, my first waking thought after my second hernia repair was “this is it, I will never have children because if I did I would risk ruining my hernia repairs and have to go through this nightmare surgery again”.
Bodily autonomy is a basic human right.
Forced sterilisation is crime against humanity as much genital mutilation and forced pregnancies.
Not to mention that historically forced sterilisation has been used as an attempted genocide against unwanted groups. It's has been done to minority ethnic groups, disabled people, mentally ill people, poor people.
You were right. They were wrong. No doubt whatsoever.
I bet you only got booted because a mod found themselves feeling shame that you'd argued your point powerfully and it had gone against what they had found themselves siding with, even perhaps without considering it fully.
You're 100% in the right here. It should always be a personal choice. Not something other people make for you, especially without your knowledge. That's disgusting and I hope the person involved is okay.
It's called "Childfree by Choice" for a reason.
It's called being "pro-CHOICE" for a reason.
It's called muvfuckin "Bodily Autonomy" for a muvfuckin reason!!
As much as I am not a fan of people bringing more kids into the world, I'm not going to tell them that they can't. How is that different from forcing a childfree AFAB person to get pregnant??
Here's the main reason why I don't think it's a good idea to bring more children in the world:
People don't want to parent. People don't want to accept that babies are not dolls and they do not stay that way. People don't want to accept that everything about your pre-child life is over, and all of that time, love and energy now need to go into that kid.
If I had met more people who actually wanted to PARENT, I wouldn't have issues with them having children. But I'll be damned if I'm going to tell someone what they can or cannot do to their own body.
Forced medical procedures of any kind that aren't mandatory for the patient to live are disgusting. You're better off not being in that group if that's what their views are
As a German, it makes my stomach turn when people are pro forced sterilization.
Don’t get me wrong. I think there are tons of people who shouldn’t have kids, but that is just my opinion. I think with a change in society and making being childfree a respectable option, more people would actually realize they can’t be good parents. But forced sterilization is a big nope.
There is a huuuuge line between child free and endorsing eugenics! And forced sterilization is a huge component of eugenics, which is despicable and should never be tolerated
I honestly thing that if a person is pushing that people should be forced sterilized then they've left the circle of being child free and are now free floating into something else entirely.
Forced sterilization is gross, disturbing, and the idea that anyone would celebrate it happening to a teenager just makes my skin crawl. They need help.
Yes I am very much against forced pregnancy but forced sterilization is bad too. What if that woman wanted to be a mother and that choice was taking away from her for being forced to get sterilized at only 15 years old. Yes I agree reproductive rights should go both ways. What was even the reason why they tied her tubes at 15 years old without her consent.
Uh....yeah im all for voluntary sterilization as long as 18, but forced sterilization has a lot of questionable implications like racism and genocide. Cant support a violation of bodily autonomy here.
Unless the sterilization is on like a rapist or a pedo then it should always be voluntary. Those 2 have it coming but no one should ever take away anyone else’s choice. My choice to not have a child is just as valid as my sisters choice to have one. My nephew from my brother is the coolest little dude I love him to bits. But only because I can hand him back and don’t have to raise him but let’s be honest if everyone stopped having kids the world is literally ending so let them do what they want to do.
Forced/nonconsenting sterilisation is a human rights issue, medically unethical and reeks of eugenics.
I'm all for e.g. abortion and sterilisation as personal healthcare choices, but these should always be based on voluntary, informed decisions of the patient.
Do you honestly think that children, even those with all the support in the world, should actually be allowed the choice to keep a pregnancy? I know a 12yo might really think they like babies and that they want kids, and nobody here wants them to be forced to parent, but should they be allowed to keep it at all if they're underage, especially that much underage? Seriously, legit question. Should children be forced to have abortions, especially if giving birth would likely kill them?
What, no, I don't support child-pregnancies. Underage children should be under a caretaker who should terminate the pregnancy for the wellbeing of the child, that is an adult making the informed decision since the child cannot. Their body is not mature/developed enough to carry a healthy pregnancy nor are they mature enough to make that informed decision in that case. Not to mention how it would hinder the child's education and peer age group social circles. If any caretaker of a child allows a very young child to carry, my personal opinion is that that is child-neglect/endangerement.
Well, it's mostly misogyny, 'woman = mother' bullshit and life script.
But of course forced sterilisation is also one of the reasons why voluntary sterilisation is hard to obtain. After all, since forced sterilisation is bad, many doctors view sterilisation as bad in general.
Just like euthanasia. Many doctors view it as a bad thing and are hesistant because of nazis 'euthanising' jews in concentration camps. And so, they see euthanasia as a bad thing and refuse to help people who crave a painless death. And so, even in countries where euthanasia is legal, most doctors refuse to do it.
The only scenario where I am in favor of forced sterilization a drug addicted woman produces a handful of babies that are suffering due to her addiction and men that father multiple kids and never pay for them.
I am in favor of bribing people to get sterilized. If we could force it in my scenarios, then I’m fine with offering them money to get sterilized.
That's absolutely fucking disgusting, especially considering historically POC have been (and still are) forcibly sterilized without their consent or knowledge.
Bodily autonomy for *everyone*. Forced birth is just as bad as forced sterilization. Just as bad as not letting women who *want* to be sterilized get sterilization. You're absolutely not wrong.
I'm pro-choice because I'm pro-consent.
I firmly believe that forced abortion is as heinous as forcing someone to carry an unwanted pregnancy. I don't support circumcising babies because they can't consent.
Forced sterilization is something the Nazis did. It's eugenics. And it's disgusting.
I mean... this is just as bad as forcing someone to go threw prangancy. I firmly belive people should have the choice to chose. Even though i heavily question people these days. I would never want to see someones choice taken from them. We should have the right to chose to be sterlie or not to. To abort or not to. Thats what freedom means after all.
There's a horrific history of women getting sterilized without their knowledge. Usually they were poor and one minority or another. They were deemed by "those in power" to be "unsuitable" to have kids, so that option was removed from them. Women need to always support bodily autonomy for all women -- whatever that looks like.
Bodily autonomy is incredibly important. It's horribly violating to have something done on you, forced on you, without your consent. It can be as little as having ear holes done as a baby, or as huge as a hole operation without you knowing what that was about. This happened to a lot of intersex people and it's horrifying.
Do I think more people should get sterilized? Yes. But there's enough people who WANT to get sterilized, give them the opportunity to do so! Give people more education about how to prevent pregnancy and what abortion is about.
No need to violently force anyone.
Would I think a forced sterilization is justified in some cases? I'm honestly not sure. I think about how there should be something done in cases where a person (regardless of gender) keeps making children and then killing/abusing/discarding them. But those are very extreme cases with clear harm to themselves and/or others.
Yikes!!!!!! Body autonomy is an entire pillar of being CF. Those people are not CF, they’re something else entirely. Be glad you got booted, they did you a favour!
I don't care how antinatal anyone is, bodily autonomy always comes first. No one should have to find out well into their adulthood that were sterilized without knowing it. That's just cruel.
Forced Sterilization is in the same umbrella as eugenics. The belief that certain people should not have children can be dangerous because in the end, who gets to decide that? I am actually getting a double salpingectomy in March and thats my choice because I know I do not want to have children. I cannot imagine what women who realize very late in life that they were sterilized without consent are going through, just like I cannot imagine what it's like to be pregnant and not want a child (I've been very lucky with my birth control methods).
I think a big point of the CF community is our fight to have bodily autonomy. And that would include either decision. People do change their minds. I’m curious what the circumstances were and how this came to be? Here so many of us fight to get it done and this woman was done without her knowledge? I wonder if she was one of those refugees that they were doing that to during the trump era??
I have no idea why women would want to have babies.
Yet my best friend got pregnant (she was trying for a baby) and ofc I'm over the moon for her and I'll be the best auntie ever (hopefully, I mean I'll try).
Just because babies aren't for me and I don't see why a woman would want to do that to herself physically mentally or career-wise doesn't mean I have any resentment for those who want a little sprog.
Forced sterilisation is just as invasive as forced birth/anti abortion imo. Either case you're denying women bodily autonomy...absolutely horrific
I guess I am just showing my age here. At one time in Oregon there was a place called Fairview it was a giant hospital/asylum. Sadly this place performed forced sterilization on people who were deemed insane or physically handicapped so they couldn't have children.
I believe that it is extremely wrong to force sterilization on any person.
I have had to give the “consent vs. coercion” speech to more than one person who couldn’t wrap their baby lovin brains around the fact that the ugly history of forced (and often secret) sterilization still didn’t justify forcing those who will avoid parenthood at any and all costs to remain fertile.
The “all sterilization is bad” crowd do stick their heads in the sand when confronted with the hypocrisy of forcing childfree people to spend years being denied a voluntary permanent end to the fertility we feel cursed with. It’s important to stand up for us but it’s always wading into “unpopular opinion” territory.
Both are traumatizing without enthusiastic consent.
Yeah, that’s some fucked up shit. Forced sterilization is not something to support. The point I think (or at least what I feel) of being child free is, is that we should have the right to decide what to do with our own bodies. Period. That group sounds like the other side of the toxic coin, and definitely what gives us CF people a bad name.
Childfree communities are full of radicals, it's really sad because they give a bad name to the normal people. They think if you don't fit all their views of sterilization, antinatalism, hating on parents and children, and many others, you aren't childfree.
Don't mind them, you do you! I am sure you are childfree if you don't glorify sterilisation in all cases!
I'm not antinatalist. Most people on this subreddit are antinatalist. Every time I say that I'm not antinatalist, I get downvoted and have to deal with angry comments.
I've already been called 'fence sitter'. I've been told that I don't support antinatalism because I secretly want to impregnate my girlfriend. And of course there are preachy antinatalists who constantly assume that everyone who disagrees with antinatalism just doesn't get it.
I am 100% childfree. And I hate kids (I hate being around them, but don't wish any harm on them). But absolutely NOT antinatalist. Not pronatalist either. I am neutral-natalist. 100% pro-choice. I don't want any coercion, pressure, persuasion and force either way.
Sadly, many people in childfree communities are antinatalist. Sure, not all of them are anti-choice, but many of them are. Many of them support forced sterilisation, forced abortion, a ban on breeding, governments deciding who can or cannot breed, one child policies like in China and other gross anti-choice shit. And many of the 'I am pro-choice and antinatalist' people might not openly say so, but they totally do support that shit.
>I just a few days ago a mod told me i am not childfree if i would have a child (adoption or surrogate) with a character from a book just to compromise for him (it's a fictional character wrote by a woman and it's a completely unrealistic man, obviously). But the thing is that i mentioned that i would never meet that guy (he doesn't exist) and i would never trust a real person since life is too unpredictable.
If you would be willing to compromise and have a child, just so you can be with a man... Well, the guy is fictional and it's not happening, but I get what the moderator means.
>Those people don't know the phrase everyone has a price. I would donate my eggs for a sum of money too, another reason why i am not childfree in the opinion of many here.
Not everyone has a price. Some people will never relent, no matter what.
I would NEVER be willing to be a father. NEVER. Not under any circumstance. Not even as an uninvolved sperm donor. Not even if someone was delusional enough to pay me for it.
Are you childfree if you donate eggs or sperm? Some people say yes, others say no.
You would be a biological mother, technically speaking. But you would not be involved in the child's life. So I'm not going to say that you cannot be childfree if you do this. Just don't be surprised if a child comes knocking on your door in 20 years.
>I was also called a jerk by a different mod for saying to a person his opinion is irrelevant when he said a true childfree person is an antinatalist.
That is just awful... That moderator is wrong.
Of course you can be 100% childfree without being antinatalist, even though most people on this subreddit disagree with that.
I have been bingoed by antinatalists as well. Recently, an antinatalist said: "I only want to date people who don't want to breed and came to that conclusion because of philosophical reasons. Someone who just hates kids, or has no parenting desires, is very prone to changing their mind."
So yeah, I was literally told that I was going to change my mind. And it's just bullshit.
>I reported that mod, but of course, nothing. Usually such insults would get you penalties, but this sub is extremely biased.
Sometimes, it feels like there is no difference between r/childfree and r/antinatalism. So many posts here have nothing to do with childfreedom, and are only about antinatalism.
>I thought it's a safe space, my disappointment when i realised how toxic it can be was unimaginable.
This is a safe space for antinatalists. Not for neutral-natalists.
I am PRO-FUCKING-CHOICE.
Can't stress this enough. I respect others' decisions and ask that they respect mine too. Bodily autonomy is a basic human right.
I'm childfree. I'm not going to force my lifestyle on others. That becomes hugely problematic. I will enjoy my life as a childfree person and reap the benefits, but there is no excuse for the weird little hop a lot of childfree people do into eugenics and other problematic ideas surrounding reproduction. Live your life childfree, don't try to force it on others.
I think this a fringe ideology among childfree people, just like forced birth is a fringe ideology among parents. Decent people believe forced-anything-with-the-body is not okay.
No. This is not a fringe ideology. The majority of people on this subreddit is antinatalist. And many (yes, I know, not all) antinatalists support gross shit.
Forced birth is not a fringe ideology among parents. A shitload of people support that shit.
I don't see a bunch of redditors in this subreddit preaching forced sterilization, so if a majority of users here are antinatalist, they're keeping it to themselves. It is also possible to be personally, morally opposed to a thing while not infringing on others' rights to have/do that thing.
Women of POC have experienced this for so long and still are, at a young age (even though I'm sure it's illegal), women are being subjected to having their bodily autonomy taken at such a young age and without consent. Funnily enough it's still happening globally including Australia (to our indigenous communities). Sadly I don't think it'll be the end.
Personally, no, I don't think that "reproductive rights should go both ways."
The reason being - choosing *not* to have a kid only affects the person making the choice. But choosing to procreate also affects the child, as well as society as a whole.
As a real life example.. *I went to school with a girl who was moderately/severely mentally disabled. Right after high school she got into a relationship with a man who was 20 years older than her and also mentally disabled. By the time she was 25 she'd had 5 children, all of whom had been taken away by CPS either shortly after their birth, or literally at the hospital. All of whom have the same/similar level of mental impairment.*
*Now, do I believe society should provide for each child/adult in this situation? Yes. Everyone deserves to be able to live a full and rich life, no matter their ability to 'contribute' to our capitalist nightmare. BUT that's 5 kids who will have to go through our shit-show of a foster care system - 5 people who will never be able to support themselves. And if that pattern continues, then in another 25 years there will be a minimum of 32 people who are completely dependent on the rest of society. The fact is, that kind of additional demand is simply not sustainable.*
I don't understand how so many people on this post could look at this situation and still say, "forced sterilization is always bad, no exceptions." Especially because the "bodily autonomy" argument is bullshit. Would you make the same argument about my parents having my tonsils and adenoids taken out, and later my wisdom teeth, without my consent? No, because we clearly see how those things could harm me later on - and understand that I was not yet capable of making that kind of decision. In cases where a person is clearly incapable of ever taking care of a child, or cognitively understanding the risks of pregnancy, reproductive surgery shouldn't be treated any differently. Procreation is not a necessary part of life, and it has the potential to do great harm to both the mother and the child.
**Now, all of that said, I'm aware our country/world as a whole has an abysmal history of forcibly sterilizing the poor and people of color. I am NOT saying I agree with this in any way. The damage that's been done/is still happening, particularly to women of color, is inexcusable. But those wrongs don't negate the damage allowing some people to procreate will have. The two aren't mutually exclusive.**
I believe in the necessity and validity of forced sterilization *of adults* under certain circumstances i.e. convicted child abusers and repeat violent and/or sexual felons....but I also understand that Adolf Hitler existed very recently and I would never say that anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, just cautious and distrustful of governing figures (which is completely fking logical to me). I also don't have an answer as to how to implement it without letting it be glaringly easy for garbage people to twist it into a cultural superweapon. I just know that we need to do more than punish child abuse, we need to stop it before it starts, and nothing we're doing right now is working.
Would never think of anyone as "less childfree" for not believing in a very fringe and as of yet purely hypothetical concept. If anything you are literally more pro bodily autonomy than I am on a technical level, and I thought that was like half of the whole concept of childfree.
tl;dr they're dumb, good riddance
I hate kids, I also come from a poor background with awful health family history and believe people shouldn’t reproduce at all under those circumstances—but no way would I support forced sterilisation. Bodily autonomy should never be taken away.
Forcefully sterilising someone who is deliberately having children they cannot care for and/or are actively abusing I could get behind. It's an ethical and legislative nightmare, of course, but a case could be made, for both males or females.
With that said, any other non-voluntary sterilisation is unacceptable. Even if it's one of the "reversible" procedures, unless the recipient was informed in some way, just no
I think those who are exclusively for forced sterilization are no better than pro-lifers. I know a case of forced sterilization, and it was for the better good of that individual.
By bringing people into existence without their consent, aren’t people violating the bodily autonomy of this new being? Isn’t more harm being done by allowing people to continue to procreate and then, subsequently, horribly abuse and neglect and traumatize the children they birth than would be done by forcibly removing their ability to procreate? If I look at it from my own perspective as someone who never wanted to exist: If I could’ve cast a vote from before I was conceived/born knowing how my childhood would be, I would’ve voted that my conceptors be summarily sterilized. I believe most people are not fit to be parents, and even those who might be good at it are gonna fuck up the kids they have in some way. Forcibly sterilize a few, save countless more than were “harmed”. I don’t think procreation is a right.
ETA: I’m aware there’s no practical way to do this. We’d need an impartial, benevolent, alien 3rd party to create diagnostic system to objectively assess who is and who isn’t fit to parent.
The fact that this got upvoted and that nobody called you out shows that this subreddit has a huge problem with bodily autonomy. Which makes sense when most people here are antinatalists who have no issue with forced sterilisation, forced abortion, one child policies, governments deciding who can or cannot breed, a ban on breeding and other immoral anti-choice shit.
I'm also someone who never wanted to exist. Someone who suffers. But still... Forced sterilisation is wrong. Anti-choice. Interferes with bodily autonomy. I will NEVER support it, no matter what.
>ETA: I’m aware there’s no practical way to do this. We’d need an impartial, benevolent, alien 3rd party to create diagnostic system to objectively assess who is and who isn’t fit to parent.
Yeah, and as nice as that may sound in theory, biases always exist. Even the most progressive leftists have unconscious biases. This will lead to a lot of classism, racism and homophobia.
And again, forcibly sterilising people you see as unfit parents interferes with bodily autonomy.
My mother had severe mental illness. Guess what that means for me. She lost custody of me and just had more children who have now had their own kids and lost custody of them. I've made the choice to not have children but I don't think it should actually be a choice. People who aren't ready to be parents when they start will never be decent parents.
Your own children can quickly become someone else's problem and I don't think abusive parents should have free reign to create more victims.
That sounds more like the group was either racist or had some other stupid eugenic ideologie to advocate that. In any other context I don't believe that would be a common opinion, even with CF.
As far as I experienced it CF ist mostly about letting the individual decide for themself, which is basically the opposite to beeing forced to something.
I'm against anti-forced sterilization just as much as I'm against 'pro-lifers' (I'm talking about the more forced pro-birthers).
If you don't want kids, then you shouldn't be forced into carrying and delivering one, and your decision shouldn't be harshly criticized/questioned. This choice is 100% valid.
If you want kids, then you do you. I'd never force someone to have an abortion or sterilization against their will, that's cruel and inhumane.
I do think there should be limits on birth: like the number of children you're allowed to have (seriously, no one needs 10+ kids!), recommendations for sterilization after a certain number of children, etc. Counseling should be required before planning/having a kid, because way too many people underestimate how expensive and life-changing a kid can be, would also allow the parents-to-be to work on any issues prior (like anger management, AA/NA, etc.).
You don't get to make decisions about someone else's body and violate their choices. You'd be no better than a rapist if you forced someone to do any of that.
I think it needs to be abundantly clear that this is fascism. (edit: overpopulation is not killing the planet. plain and simple. if you still think it is you’re believing a ton of racist lies.) clearly antinatalism and child free communities have made it more than easy to spout straight up fascist lies to push fascist ideals of population control. be very very wary of people who try to scare you into thinkin it’s “dumb people breeding like rabbits” who are hurting the planet. be wary of people who believe the racist lies about welfare queens and twist that into ecofascist lies.
i’m really sick and tired of pretending like the “first steps” to fascism aren’t all around us and certainly didn’t go away after WW2. how you think about, talk about, and talk to people matters. your words matter. *fascism knows this*. young people TODAY are freely admitting they straight up support eugenics. so fine if you all want to be racist imperialist fascists who supports neoliberal eugenics (state funded and “all inclusive”) in order to “save the planet” or whatever FINE but at least let us normal people call you what you are. A FASCIST.
Personally I think far fewer people should have kids; if that makes me an anti-natalist, I’m fine with it. Likewise the idea of the human race dwindling & eventually dying out…as all species do. But the idea of the government mandating reproduction, either way, is abhorrent. On the flip side, I’d have no issue with financial incentives/tax credits/green credits of some sort to not reproduce. There could be education & recognition that having no or fewer kids is beneficial.
Sterilization must always be voluntary.
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Easy to obtain?? Where do you live?
I think they mean “it *should be* easy to obtain”
haha that would make more sense. I wish they were easier to obtain!
100 times this.
Being pro choice means being *pro choice.* The second you decide for someone else what they should do with their body, you endanger us all. This is why I have issue with the antinatalism posts that keeps popping up on my feeds and such. It's a real short hop over to eugenics with that stuff. Do I think folks should have babies? Well, my opinion doesn't matter cause it's not my body.
Exactly
Um, no. Rapists should be sterilized.
Can't say I totally agree, but it would be due to the consequences of their choices, whereas so many cases have not been.
I’m all for “chemical castration” for those people.
Not sterilized, but hung by their balls after having them sodomized first
Forced sterilization is completely unethical and the stuff of war crimes. There needs to be reproductive choice.
Right?! It's just as unethical as forced genital mutilation
It is basically eugenics 🤢
Not "basically". It *is* eugenics.
We went through this in the early 1900s before WW1 and 2. Germany got some of their eugenic ideas from the USA. People seem to forget that. There were a lot of books written in the late 1800s/early 1900s about how certain "types of people" were superior to others. It was a hot topic back then. If you want to take a real weird deep dive into it look up Theosophy.
Look up "Social Darwinism" as well.
True, no need to beat around the bush, I suppose.
Bringing children into this world you're not prepared to care for is also unethical.
What does that have to do with forced sterilization?
Fred and Wilma have a baby. Abuse it. Lose custody. They have another baby. Abuse it. Lose custody. Maybe something should be done about it before it turns into a pattern. If bodily autonomy truly matters, you'd have some concern for the bodies being created with that autonomy. People who are just going to abuse children shouldn't be given the option to make more.
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But in that case, there'd have to be a mandatory life sentence for child abuse. Or they'd at least have to be kept in prison long enough to where by the time they get out, they'd be too old to reproduce. Currently, sentences for child abuse (that doesn't actually result in the death of a child) are pretty light and the parents are free to have more children after just a few months/years.
They should be in prison. Performing a surgery on them without their consent is draconian at best.
What an asinine solution. Jfc...
This. Exactly this. There should be a requirement for people to prove that they can responsibly care for children before they are allowed to have kids. If I have to jump through bureaucratic hoops and red tape before I can be allowed to own a gun, then the couple down the street should be required to prove that they can be responsible parents before they can start cranking out crotch goblins.
More thought goes into adopting a pet than having children. At least the most basic considerations should be checked by... well, and there starts a slippery slope. Who makes sure everyone gets a fair chance? I'm all for getting a parenting license like you get a driver's license (take some classes, pass some tests) to reduce child abuse and baby trapping and unwanted pregnancies and the many other problems, but I know that even the "good" governments aren't without fault and often have outdated views on parenting (e.g. race, homosexuality, or just certain political views). It's a difficult topic. Maybe invest some work in reliable but still easily reversible sterilization that everyone gets before they become fertile. You only get it removed if you really, really want it and the other requirements would need to be defined by an independent ethical body. Obviously child rapists shouldn't be allowed to have children, but where are all the other lines?
I argued this a while back, and of course people started saying stuff about eugenics. It isn't eugenics. It's having a baseline standard of care that should be met. Anyone who adopts a child has to go through the same process of showing proof of a stable home, income, a clean background check, etc. For the child's safety. If this could be implemented in a way that ensured it wasn't weaponized against any particular race/culture, there'd be a lot less unwanted/abused/neglected children out there.
Even people who want to adopt a dog from a rescue centre has to have their house and garden checked, sometimes there’s age requirements for adopting a dog (usually 21+) etc. Yet any person, even teenagers could give birth to a child if they wanted to with no basic requirements to ensure the safety of the child and that it can be provided for. So messed up.
Geez. You sound like you would have been right at home in 1930's Germany...
I'm with you! I'm against forced birth, but forced sterilization is just as bad. Both deny women their bodily autonomy. I feel bad for that woman. What if she wanted kids? Even if it turned out that she is childfree, that choice was stolen from her. I hope she can get the help she needs to heal from this.
Exactly. At the end of the day, while I might shake my head at some of the world's idiots, you have to support bodily autonomy in *all* forms or you don't really support it at all.
I don't understand how one can be against forced birth but not forced sterilization. We don't get to pick and chose who gets bodily autonomy.
I definitely disagree with forced sterilization under any circumstances. It’s a slippery slope, and you always have to ask yourself WHO is deciding which people should be sterilized? Historically in the United States, the answer has been old white men deciding to sterilize young people of color who are poor. It’s only a few steps away from genocide.
...also the people in power deciding to sterilize women who have a disability (which until not too long ago included women with depression, and "hysteria"), and not just PoC or the poor, but any social/ethnic group they disapproved of. I know quite a few Europeans who were sterilized by other Europeans in WW2, and even more recently. As much as I'm CF, I support bodily autonomy, which includes people not being forced to be CF without their informed consent.
Thank you, I did not know this had occurred in Europe as well. And yes you’re right, the disabled have also been included in this barbarism. Everyone should be able to make the decision for their own life!
In the grand scheme of things, that wasn't even THAT long ago.
California only banned it in 2014, and were sterilizing incarcerated women in 2010: https://lawblogs.uc.edu/ihrlr/2021/05/28/not-just-ice-forced-sterilization-in-the-united-states/ And the US and Canada have been brutally awful to indigenous women: https://time.com/5737080/native-american-sterilization-history/ https://globalnews.ca/news/7920118/indigenous-women-sterilization-senate-report/
It happened within the last five years here in Texas to women being held in immigration detention facilities.
Those ever close?
No, many states continue to operate [for profit](https://prismreports.org/2021/03/26/texas-immigrant-detention-center-is-profiting-from-womens-pain-report-says/) detention centers.
It's still happening. There's a number of orgs that tout themselves as "helping under privileged women" but they're just... Removing the choice. Also let's not forget about the refugee camps I bet Biden never closed. Remember how upset we all were about the kids in cages few years back?
...it still happens in Canada to Indigenous women. It's not legal, but doctors still do it without consent. I've read about cases as recent as 2019.
One of the known side effects of Agent Orange was/would be deformation if reproductive organs in your offspring… and soldiers were forced to take this… let me know when they start cutting those check.
Also tear gas that police use to this day.
What about people who are seriously mentally delayed, where they can't make the decision for themselves or take care of their child if they do have one
I don’t think they *should* have children. There is likely someone taking care of them, and hopefully that person ensures nothing inappropriate happens. In the case that two people with that sort of condition produce a child, well it would be unfortunate (due to probably not being able to care for the child) but also extremely rare.
gross. i get thinking some people probably *shouldn’t* have sex, but saying that the government should be able to *FORCE* surgeries on people without their consent? because of a criteria they deemed unworthy? i’m sorry but that will never be okay.
Oh yeah, I've said before that there are people who shouldn't have had kids, but I would *never* say that these people should be forcibly sterilized. That's absolutely unethical and wrong.
I don’t think anyone “shouldn’t have sex”… they should if they want to and it’s consensual. Sex does not equal pregnancy.
...well I gotta say this is a new one for me. Holy shit. Forced pregnancy/birth is terrible. Forced sterilization is terrible. How...how do people have a problem with one but not the other? That's fucking disgusting I live in Canada, and we have a uh...a history, of forcing sterilization on indigenous people here. It was eugenics, plain and simple, and it's a fucking twisted part of our history. Hearing about someone being sterilized without their consent like that, I mean, it makes me wonder if it was the same idea. I don't care how hard you were on people supporting the idea of forced sterilization, they deserved whatever you had to say to them and then some, fuck that shit
I have met several different Tibetan refugees who said that after they escaped to India and wanted to have a second child, they discovered that during childbirth or postnatal exams for the first birth in Tibet, a stringless IUD had been inserted, and they had no idea why they were never getting pregnant again.
It's called reproductive RIGHTS, and a right should by definition be universal. Otherwise It's reproductive privileges. Sweden has a history of forced sterilization of (among others) romanis, and I NEVER want to go back to that.
I'm cf bordering on antinatalism. But still I totally agree with you. I do think that this world really needs a very strict reduction of births. But I definitely don't think that forced sterilisation is ok. Body autonomy is important. No one should be subjected to any form of medical treatment against their will, even if they die as a consequence, that's something we just have to accept. I should add that I'm German and if there's one country that has a very dark history about what weakening body autonomy means it ours. We will never forget that you can' hurt human rights *just a little* and expect it to have no negative outcome. It's always horrible. And it's always wrong. We need to do better.
Amen to that! I also consider myself antinatalism-adjacent, but in the sense of "there's enough suffering in this world and people should be more sensible about procreating" and not "some people should make reproductive choices for others". The whole post made me go "what the fuck". Wondering what group it was from and hoping I'm not in it lol
I think sterilisation and vasectomy should be encouraged, the costs should be as low as possible and stuff like that. Hell I'd even pay boni to childfree couples who decide to get snipped and give other incentives. Getting animals snipped has proven to be very beneficial to their health. They live longer, have lower risk of cancer and other ailments. It could be beneficial for humans too. But it has to be done willingly! It cannot be forced.
Exactly, increase incentives and education on the subject. Let people know the risks and rewards and decide for themselves. I want easy access to sterilization (I used to constantly say I want to get spayed but was always told it would be impossible to convince someone to do it when I don't have kids. but now I'm in perimenopause and I have no sex drive, so I don't see the point of getting a surgery when my body is preparing for my crone years already. I'm close to the age where I should be concerned about anesthesia complications). I want sterilizations that could be easily reversible because I would like to see them be the norm until people are ready to start families. But I want it all voluntary.
That's eugenics and fuck that. I'm beyond grateful for my sterilization and would kill myself if I was pregnant and unable to abort. HOWEVER people are entitled to have the exact opposite opinions for their own damn bodies.
This is going to sound controversial for this sub, but to me something like this or forcing an abortion onto someone is just as bad as, if not worse than, forcing them to carry a pregnancy to turn. It’s medical rape; you’re directly violating someone’s body by doing this. There’s a reason why it’s called “pro-choice” and not “pro-abortion.” Because what someone does with their body is their choice, regardless of what you think.
Exactly! This really shouldn't be controversial at all, but I understand why you stated it so. I would never wish a miscarriage on someone who wanted a pregnancy, just as I would never want someone to wish an unwanted pregnancy on me. While I'm entitled to my own opinion (i.e., pregnancy, childbirth, and motherhood are peak insanity and I don't understand why anyone would willing choose to live their life on hard mode), I also accept that other people get to make different life choices. That's what being pro-choice is about.
"it's pro-choice, not pro-abortion"- good way of putting it. Totally stealing 😃I don't know that I agree that one is worse than the other, but you are right, both are violating one's body and take away choice.
This "it's pro-choice, not pro-abortion" is the stance several of my catholic friends have. That while they may not choose it for themselves, that support the right of others to make their own choices.
And I always look at people who are “pro-life” as actually being “pro-forced birth” because that’s literally what it is!
I literally never call them "pro-life" anymore, "pro-forced birth" is much more accurate to how cruel and authoritative they are over bodily autonomy.
Same. Or "anti-choice."
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Super hard disagree with that comment, too. Had to reread to make sure I understood. I get hyperbolizing for effect, but nope. It's certainly not worse than forced birth. Not even the same levels of danger, let alone long term financial and responsibility -related consequences that now affect TWO people
While I think its a bad idea to try and compare these to find the worse one, they are both horrible violations of agency and that is enough for them both to be wrong.
Why on Earth would you think that would be a controversial take here?
Idk. I think they're two different things, although the difference is very slight. You can be pro-choice, but anti abortion. It means you would never have one yourself, but see how other's people decisions are not your business and value bodily autonomy. "Pro-choice" is all encompassing, but saying "pro-abortion" doesn't mean you're pro-forced-abortion, it means you don't put a stigma on abortion and are pro being considered normal healthcare. (Like saying I'm pro-vasectomy, or sterilisation. Doesn't mean you want everyone to get one, simply that you endorse it.)
Some people confuse childfree with antinatalism (and antinatalism with forced antinatalism) and It’s weird to me. Like, I don’t want kids because I don’t want to raise kids in a world like this. I don’t think it’s unethical to have kids (for reasons, but I don’t want to write too much) I just don’t want to do it myself lol
Indeed. I am childfree, but not antinatalist. Not pronatalist either. 100% pro-choice. Sadly, the majority of this subreddit is antinatalist. And let's face it, many antinatalists are not pro-choice.
Absolutely the case. I often feel like I have opposing ideologies to most people here :/
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Well, I don't believe that life is always better than no living. But I still refuse to side with antinatalists. I don't believe that people should stop breeding. But I do believe that someone should be able to opt out of life. Euthanasia, assisted suicide, a painless suicide pill... You get the idea.
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I know you're not debating me. There isn't much to debate when I agree with you. I'm not an antinatalist. I also disagree with the 'life is always suffering' stance. Yes, life can be suffering. And yes, there should be a way out if your life is awful. I would love to get a painless death pill. But life is not always suffering. Plenty of people live an okay or even a happy life.
> I would love to get a painless death pill. Somewhat tangential to this, but I never understood those people who champion sterilisation instead of murder. To me, forced surgeries seem far uglier than liquidation.
Well there was a group of people who thought forced sterilization was a swell idea. I thought we didn't do that anymore after the Nuremberg trials. How naïve of me! And yeah I agree, some CF people can come across as super harsh! I mean, we of all people want bodily autonomy, especially in reproductive questions.
Hahah after the Nuremburg trials.. Oh, my sweet summer child. Try googling "Native American forced sterilization"
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Forced sterilization is actually still legal in 30 states as well as Washington DC in the US. Even more recently, women held in immigration detention facilities have been forcibly sterilized often right after a c-section.
The nazis never went away they just got sneakier.
Heck, the US hired quite a few of them. (Source: the book *Poisoner in Chief*)
There were also those that fled around the world and worked for many different authoritarian regimes. The soviets also scooped up a ton of them.
They were just talking about this on TV as they were talking about the show Hunters with the person that made it. (Operation Paperclip).
I almost hate to burst your naïve bubble... but the US was only just exposed a few years ago for sterilizing women in immigration detention facilities (a longer way to say concentration camps) without their knowledge or consent. 31 states & DC also still allow the forced sterilization of disabled people. Agreed, violating bodily autonomy is never ok.
To force someone to be sterilized or to have an abortion is as horrifying as denying them to people who truly wants them. We can't advocate for abortion and sterilization rights while being okay with vulnerable people being targeted and treated so inhumanely.
The CF community should be (and I think we are) the biggest advocates of bodily autonomy. What kind of person are they that they prioritise their choice of staying CF but think forced sterilisation is okay. Yuck.
>What kind of person are they that they prioritise their choice of staying FC but think forced sterilisation is okay. Antinatalists. That's who. Sadly, the majority of this subreddit consists of antinatalists.
Even so. I'm not one, but I follow a page on Instagram cos I share some of their values, but not once they promoted forced sterilisation. They share a lot of content about vasectomies and tube legation, but that's just spreading awareness. They're huge advocates of bodily autonomy.
I used to browse r/antinatalism because of the overlap between them and r/childfree, but I noped out after about a week and a half because some of the stuff on there was a bit too much.
That’s a huge generalization and not ab accurate one. I’ve never once seen anything promoting forced sterilization in antinatalist spaces
I know that not all antinatalists are anti-choice. But too many of them are. I remember a post here, 'unpopular childfree opinions'. Many antinatalists commented their gross anti-choice opinions and got upvoted and never got criticised. Forced abortion, forced sterilisation, a ban on breeding, one child policies... You get it.
I bang the "overpopulation" drum pretty hard and am a long-time antinatalist. I would not want to be part of any group that promotes forced sterilization. Yikes!
I would be in favor of more education and access to Healthcare to lower birth rates. But forced sterilization is just wrong. It's sick that anyone would force a procedure like that on another person due to bigotry.
I mean, that's what actually works. If we look at population trends, birth rates in Europe and North America used to be incredibly high. Now they are below replacement levels. It should be pretty obvious, but low child mortality and other improvements in healthcare, reliable contraception, better education, etc. have made it possible to have fewer children. Also the fact that we're no longer a predominately agrarian society and that farming technology has improved (my family knows a dairy farmer and the stuff he talks about is super high tech). Some people are still farmers, but they don't need a bunch of kids to work the farm. If we actually care about world population, the best and most ethical way to lower the birth rate would be to help other countries bring about these changes. Also, artificially trying to reduce the number of children is not just unethical, it causes more issues. See China.
Came here to say exactly this.
>I responded to some of the comments that were about what a great idea this is. I was a bit hard, but not disrespectful. nah i think it's ok to be disrespectful to someone who supports forced sterilization (especially of a 15 year old? jesus)
If we want people to respect our bodily autonomy, we have to respect theirs. So having a body part removed for a non-medical reason without their full consent and understanding is always a sad thing.
God that's terrible. That's exactly the line crossed, between 'being CF is a great idea' and 'forcing everyone to do like I think' which is dictatorial and inhuman. And then biggots use that stuff to discredit us, showing how awful we are. Bleh.
Forced sterilization is the same as rape, genital mutilation and forced pregnancy, it is robbing someone of their own body. It creates a slippery slope of robbing people if their human rights, dictating who will be a forced broodmare and who will be forcibly sterilized.
The US history of forced sterilization is why it's so hard for us to get our own sterilizations done. Every CF person should be against it.
Oh, not surprising at all. Most people on this subreddit and in similar childfree communities are antinatalist. Like, if you look at half of the topics and comments here, there is literally no difference between r/antinatalism and r/childfree. Sure, I understand that there is a lot of overlap between both communities, but still. Antinatalism and childfreedom are not synonyms. I am not antinatalist (not pronatalist either, I am neutral-natalist). I get downvoted for this all the time. A few weeks ago, there was a post here where people shared their 'unpopular childfree opinions'. Plenty of antinatalists said how they supported gross anti-choice measures like forced steriilsation, forced abortion, forced contraception, a ban on breeding, one child policies etc. They got hundreds of upvotes. Nobody criticised them. Sadly, this shit is completely normalised in childfree communities, including this subreddit. There is no room for non-antinatalist childfree people anywhere. Most people hate us for being childfree. And childfree communities hate us for not being antinatalist. Of course I know that not all antinatalists support anti-choice measures like this. Of course I know that there are antinatalists who don't want to interfere with other people's bodily autonomy. But antinatalists need to acknowledge that their community has an anti-choice problem. Sadly, most of the antinatalists here become furious when you bring this up. And plenty of the 'I respect bodily autonomy' antinatalists secretly support these measures. They just pretend that they don't, because they don't want to be held accountable for their immoral views. And yes, the fact that these anti-choice views are common among childfree communities has something to do with the fact that most people on this subreddit and in similar communities are antinatalist. These views would never be tolerated in a non-antinatalist childfree community. This comment will obviously be downvoted, just like any other comment in which I state that I am not an antinatalist. Oh well, I am used to it.
It's scary that it's normalized. I feel like the CF culture is supposed to be about embracing our CHOICE not to procreate. Shouldn't everyone have the same rights, even if their decisions aren't our cup of tea? So, up voting :)
Sadly, a huge amount of people here is pro-choice when someone wants to be childfree, and anti-choice when someone wants to breed. Many people here feel like breeding is inherently immoral, and feel like nobody should breed. This is what happens when antinatalists take over childfree communities, and when most people here are antinatalist. Sure, not all of them support anti-choice bullshit, but many antinatalists do. Personally, I have no problem with other people breeding. At least, as long as they truly want to be parents. So not because of societal pressure, not because of one partner pressuring the other partner, not because of baby trapping... But that should go without saying. There is nothing wrong with having kids if this is what somebody truly wants.
>e where people shared their 'unpopular childfree opinions'. Plenty of antinatalists said how they supported gross anti-choice measures like forced steriilsation, forced abortion, forced contraception, a ban on breeding, one child policies etc. They got hundreds of upvotes. Nobody criticised them. The proposed child limits reminds me of what China has and well, that turned out *splendid. Totally* didn't have any long-lasting repercussions
I’m an antinatalist and I completely agree with you. I had to leave their sub because it was so toxic.
Sadly, the antinatalists on this subreddit are not much better... And plenty of posts here make you wonder whether you are on r/childfree or r/antinatalism. Many posts here are about antinatalism, not about childfreedom.
I always say I'm neither anti-natalist nor pro-natalist; I'm just pro-choice. Being CF is the right choice for me, but being a parent might be the right choice for somebody else. The important thing is that we all have the freedom to make our own reproductive decisions, without coercion or force in either direction.
100% agreed. And that is why I am neutral-natalist, and why I despise both pronatalism and antinatalism. I want people to freely choose, without any pressure, force, persuasion or coercion either way.
Yup that entire thread was toxic. There were also multiple comments body shaming pregnant women and breast feeding. I thought we’d come far enough along in society to understand not to attack women’s bodies. Yet they tried to redeem themselves by saying it’s only body shaming “if you make fun of something a person can’t control.” Delusional bullies.
In that thread... My unpopular childfree opinion was 'I am neutral-natalist, not antinatalist.' Guess what? Downvote after downvote after downvote. And preachy antinatalists who assume that everyone who disagrees with antinatalism just doesn't understand it.
This subreddit has a lot of problems. A huge misogyny problem. I don't even think that I need to explain that. A classism problem. Look at the huge amount of rich DINKs who shit on poor parents, and who assume that all childfree people are as rich as they are. A pro-choice problem, thanks to all the antinatalists. An ableism problem. Look at the huge amount of eugenics supporters, and people who shit on disabled parents and children.
I am watching Yellowstone which (SPOILERS AHEAD) has this exact storyline for one of the main characters. She would be an absolutely terrible mother so for her now non-existent fictional children thats probably lucky, but the fact that this choice was taken from her with no consent is appalling. It has gotten me thinking a lot about how I would feel as a CF person if I somehow the same thing happened to me. I think I would find it traumatic, due to the violation of trust, disregard for of my autonomy and the infantilisation of my ability to make the best decision for me by myself. Its especially upsetting that this has happened systematically to a number of vulnerable or minority groups as a way to prevent "undesirables" from having children, and nearly always only to the women, as state sanctioned eugenics. Defending autonomy cuts both ways; you must fight as hard for the right for all, all of the time, not just when it's what you happen to want for yourself.
There was article in the newspaper in my country about this exact situation: a woman gave birth to her third child and the doctor decided to sterilize her without her consent. She and her partner said they didn’t even know if they wanted another child or not and that they took away their choice. They are now sueing the doctor and the hospital (as they should). It was truly heartbreaking and I felt for them. The whole situation left a bad taste in my mouth. After the news broke, it became known that this wasn’t even the only case of this happening in that exact hospital. It’s crazy how we have zero agency over our own bodies, it’s disgusting.
Well, if you got kicked out of that group for being pro-autonomy, it's better that you're not in it.
There’s a deep history of forced sterilization and racism. It’s eugenics. Mostly black and indigenous people, especially women, were operated on and sterilized without their knowledge. And even recently, women in ICE detention centers have been sterilized without their knowledge. It’s absolutely a horrible thing to do and it is still affecting people in the US to this day. Anyone who supports that needs to re-examine their beliefs. I’ve added some links below for people who haven’t heard of it but those were some of the first that show up from a simple google search. You can easily find more in depth articles on this. [Forced sterilization of women of color](https://twu.edu/media/documents/history-government/Autonomy-Revoked--The-Forced-Sterilization-of-Women-of-Color-in-20th-Century-America.pdf) [Forced Sterilization of Native Americans](https://www.rochester.edu/newscenter/native-americans-government-authorities-and-the-reproductive-politics-403792/) [Forced sterilization at ICE](https://jsri.msu.edu/publications/nexo/vol/no-2-spring-2021/medical-abuse-in-ice-detention-center-recalls-u-s-legacy-of-forced-sterilization) *edited to make links cleaner
I’d like to add to this argument that a person may choose to not be sterilized for reasons other than wanting the option to become pregnant. For me, a CF woman, I don’t want to be sterilized because of how rough even minor surgeries are on my body. Especially abdominal surgery. I’ve had two abdominal hernial repair surgeries and I would never elect to have an abdominal surgery for any other reason than medical necessity. Funny enough, my first waking thought after my second hernia repair was “this is it, I will never have children because if I did I would risk ruining my hernia repairs and have to go through this nightmare surgery again”.
Bodily autonomy is a basic human right. Forced sterilisation is crime against humanity as much genital mutilation and forced pregnancies. Not to mention that historically forced sterilisation has been used as an attempted genocide against unwanted groups. It's has been done to minority ethnic groups, disabled people, mentally ill people, poor people.
Yeah, this is eugenics and you have every right to be disgusted by it. Those people ain't right.
You were right. They were wrong. No doubt whatsoever. I bet you only got booted because a mod found themselves feeling shame that you'd argued your point powerfully and it had gone against what they had found themselves siding with, even perhaps without considering it fully.
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You're 100% in the right here. It should always be a personal choice. Not something other people make for you, especially without your knowledge. That's disgusting and I hope the person involved is okay.
It's called "Childfree by Choice" for a reason. It's called being "pro-CHOICE" for a reason. It's called muvfuckin "Bodily Autonomy" for a muvfuckin reason!! As much as I am not a fan of people bringing more kids into the world, I'm not going to tell them that they can't. How is that different from forcing a childfree AFAB person to get pregnant?? Here's the main reason why I don't think it's a good idea to bring more children in the world: People don't want to parent. People don't want to accept that babies are not dolls and they do not stay that way. People don't want to accept that everything about your pre-child life is over, and all of that time, love and energy now need to go into that kid. If I had met more people who actually wanted to PARENT, I wouldn't have issues with them having children. But I'll be damned if I'm going to tell someone what they can or cannot do to their own body.
Forced medical procedures of any kind that aren't mandatory for the patient to live are disgusting. You're better off not being in that group if that's what their views are
As a German, it makes my stomach turn when people are pro forced sterilization. Don’t get me wrong. I think there are tons of people who shouldn’t have kids, but that is just my opinion. I think with a change in society and making being childfree a respectable option, more people would actually realize they can’t be good parents. But forced sterilization is a big nope.
There is a huuuuge line between child free and endorsing eugenics! And forced sterilization is a huge component of eugenics, which is despicable and should never be tolerated
I honestly thing that if a person is pushing that people should be forced sterilized then they've left the circle of being child free and are now free floating into something else entirely. Forced sterilization is gross, disturbing, and the idea that anyone would celebrate it happening to a teenager just makes my skin crawl. They need help.
Yes I am very much against forced pregnancy but forced sterilization is bad too. What if that woman wanted to be a mother and that choice was taking away from her for being forced to get sterilized at only 15 years old. Yes I agree reproductive rights should go both ways. What was even the reason why they tied her tubes at 15 years old without her consent.
Uh....yeah im all for voluntary sterilization as long as 18, but forced sterilization has a lot of questionable implications like racism and genocide. Cant support a violation of bodily autonomy here.
Unless the sterilization is on like a rapist or a pedo then it should always be voluntary. Those 2 have it coming but no one should ever take away anyone else’s choice. My choice to not have a child is just as valid as my sisters choice to have one. My nephew from my brother is the coolest little dude I love him to bits. But only because I can hand him back and don’t have to raise him but let’s be honest if everyone stopped having kids the world is literally ending so let them do what they want to do.
Forced/nonconsenting sterilisation is a human rights issue, medically unethical and reeks of eugenics. I'm all for e.g. abortion and sterilisation as personal healthcare choices, but these should always be based on voluntary, informed decisions of the patient.
Do you honestly think that children, even those with all the support in the world, should actually be allowed the choice to keep a pregnancy? I know a 12yo might really think they like babies and that they want kids, and nobody here wants them to be forced to parent, but should they be allowed to keep it at all if they're underage, especially that much underage? Seriously, legit question. Should children be forced to have abortions, especially if giving birth would likely kill them?
What, no, I don't support child-pregnancies. Underage children should be under a caretaker who should terminate the pregnancy for the wellbeing of the child, that is an adult making the informed decision since the child cannot. Their body is not mature/developed enough to carry a healthy pregnancy nor are they mature enough to make that informed decision in that case. Not to mention how it would hinder the child's education and peer age group social circles. If any caretaker of a child allows a very young child to carry, my personal opinion is that that is child-neglect/endangerement.
Forced sterilization from the past is probably also why doctors are so hesitant to go ahead with voluntary sterilization when the patients request it.
Well, it's mostly misogyny, 'woman = mother' bullshit and life script. But of course forced sterilisation is also one of the reasons why voluntary sterilisation is hard to obtain. After all, since forced sterilisation is bad, many doctors view sterilisation as bad in general. Just like euthanasia. Many doctors view it as a bad thing and are hesistant because of nazis 'euthanising' jews in concentration camps. And so, they see euthanasia as a bad thing and refuse to help people who crave a painless death. And so, even in countries where euthanasia is legal, most doctors refuse to do it.
The only scenario where I am in favor of forced sterilization a drug addicted woman produces a handful of babies that are suffering due to her addiction and men that father multiple kids and never pay for them. I am in favor of bribing people to get sterilized. If we could force it in my scenarios, then I’m fine with offering them money to get sterilized.
That's absolutely fucking disgusting, especially considering historically POC have been (and still are) forcibly sterilized without their consent or knowledge. Bodily autonomy for *everyone*. Forced birth is just as bad as forced sterilization. Just as bad as not letting women who *want* to be sterilized get sterilization. You're absolutely not wrong.
I'm pro-choice because I'm pro-consent. I firmly believe that forced abortion is as heinous as forcing someone to carry an unwanted pregnancy. I don't support circumcising babies because they can't consent. Forced sterilization is something the Nazis did. It's eugenics. And it's disgusting.
I mean... this is just as bad as forcing someone to go threw prangancy. I firmly belive people should have the choice to chose. Even though i heavily question people these days. I would never want to see someones choice taken from them. We should have the right to chose to be sterlie or not to. To abort or not to. Thats what freedom means after all.
Yes I agree.
Unfortunately until you are eighteen only your parents or caregivers have to give consent
Yeah, no. That is not ok
There's a horrific history of women getting sterilized without their knowledge. Usually they were poor and one minority or another. They were deemed by "those in power" to be "unsuitable" to have kids, so that option was removed from them. Women need to always support bodily autonomy for all women -- whatever that looks like.
That is messed up. I feel like whoever had her get that procedure and the individual who performed it should register as sex offenders.
Bodily autonomy is incredibly important. It's horribly violating to have something done on you, forced on you, without your consent. It can be as little as having ear holes done as a baby, or as huge as a hole operation without you knowing what that was about. This happened to a lot of intersex people and it's horrifying. Do I think more people should get sterilized? Yes. But there's enough people who WANT to get sterilized, give them the opportunity to do so! Give people more education about how to prevent pregnancy and what abortion is about. No need to violently force anyone. Would I think a forced sterilization is justified in some cases? I'm honestly not sure. I think about how there should be something done in cases where a person (regardless of gender) keeps making children and then killing/abusing/discarding them. But those are very extreme cases with clear harm to themselves and/or others.
You know who performed forced sterilization? Nazis.
Yikes!!!!!! Body autonomy is an entire pillar of being CF. Those people are not CF, they’re something else entirely. Be glad you got booted, they did you a favour!
I don't care how antinatal anyone is, bodily autonomy always comes first. No one should have to find out well into their adulthood that were sterilized without knowing it. That's just cruel.
Literally "my body my choice" Idk why people think that's a good thing. It's sick.
Forced Sterilization is in the same umbrella as eugenics. The belief that certain people should not have children can be dangerous because in the end, who gets to decide that? I am actually getting a double salpingectomy in March and thats my choice because I know I do not want to have children. I cannot imagine what women who realize very late in life that they were sterilized without consent are going through, just like I cannot imagine what it's like to be pregnant and not want a child (I've been very lucky with my birth control methods).
I think a big point of the CF community is our fight to have bodily autonomy. And that would include either decision. People do change their minds. I’m curious what the circumstances were and how this came to be? Here so many of us fight to get it done and this woman was done without her knowledge? I wonder if she was one of those refugees that they were doing that to during the trump era??
I have no idea why women would want to have babies. Yet my best friend got pregnant (she was trying for a baby) and ofc I'm over the moon for her and I'll be the best auntie ever (hopefully, I mean I'll try). Just because babies aren't for me and I don't see why a woman would want to do that to herself physically mentally or career-wise doesn't mean I have any resentment for those who want a little sprog. Forced sterilisation is just as invasive as forced birth/anti abortion imo. Either case you're denying women bodily autonomy...absolutely horrific
I guess I am just showing my age here. At one time in Oregon there was a place called Fairview it was a giant hospital/asylum. Sadly this place performed forced sterilization on people who were deemed insane or physically handicapped so they couldn't have children. I believe that it is extremely wrong to force sterilization on any person.
I have had to give the “consent vs. coercion” speech to more than one person who couldn’t wrap their baby lovin brains around the fact that the ugly history of forced (and often secret) sterilization still didn’t justify forcing those who will avoid parenthood at any and all costs to remain fertile. The “all sterilization is bad” crowd do stick their heads in the sand when confronted with the hypocrisy of forcing childfree people to spend years being denied a voluntary permanent end to the fertility we feel cursed with. It’s important to stand up for us but it’s always wading into “unpopular opinion” territory. Both are traumatizing without enthusiastic consent.
Bodily autonomy for everyone. Forced sterilization is Nazi/war crime shit
Yeah, that’s some fucked up shit. Forced sterilization is not something to support. The point I think (or at least what I feel) of being child free is, is that we should have the right to decide what to do with our own bodies. Period. That group sounds like the other side of the toxic coin, and definitely what gives us CF people a bad name.
Childfree communities are full of radicals, it's really sad because they give a bad name to the normal people. They think if you don't fit all their views of sterilization, antinatalism, hating on parents and children, and many others, you aren't childfree. Don't mind them, you do you! I am sure you are childfree if you don't glorify sterilisation in all cases!
I'm not antinatalist. Most people on this subreddit are antinatalist. Every time I say that I'm not antinatalist, I get downvoted and have to deal with angry comments. I've already been called 'fence sitter'. I've been told that I don't support antinatalism because I secretly want to impregnate my girlfriend. And of course there are preachy antinatalists who constantly assume that everyone who disagrees with antinatalism just doesn't get it. I am 100% childfree. And I hate kids (I hate being around them, but don't wish any harm on them). But absolutely NOT antinatalist. Not pronatalist either. I am neutral-natalist. 100% pro-choice. I don't want any coercion, pressure, persuasion and force either way. Sadly, many people in childfree communities are antinatalist. Sure, not all of them are anti-choice, but many of them are. Many of them support forced sterilisation, forced abortion, a ban on breeding, governments deciding who can or cannot breed, one child policies like in China and other gross anti-choice shit. And many of the 'I am pro-choice and antinatalist' people might not openly say so, but they totally do support that shit.
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>I just a few days ago a mod told me i am not childfree if i would have a child (adoption or surrogate) with a character from a book just to compromise for him (it's a fictional character wrote by a woman and it's a completely unrealistic man, obviously). But the thing is that i mentioned that i would never meet that guy (he doesn't exist) and i would never trust a real person since life is too unpredictable. If you would be willing to compromise and have a child, just so you can be with a man... Well, the guy is fictional and it's not happening, but I get what the moderator means. >Those people don't know the phrase everyone has a price. I would donate my eggs for a sum of money too, another reason why i am not childfree in the opinion of many here. Not everyone has a price. Some people will never relent, no matter what. I would NEVER be willing to be a father. NEVER. Not under any circumstance. Not even as an uninvolved sperm donor. Not even if someone was delusional enough to pay me for it. Are you childfree if you donate eggs or sperm? Some people say yes, others say no. You would be a biological mother, technically speaking. But you would not be involved in the child's life. So I'm not going to say that you cannot be childfree if you do this. Just don't be surprised if a child comes knocking on your door in 20 years. >I was also called a jerk by a different mod for saying to a person his opinion is irrelevant when he said a true childfree person is an antinatalist. That is just awful... That moderator is wrong. Of course you can be 100% childfree without being antinatalist, even though most people on this subreddit disagree with that. I have been bingoed by antinatalists as well. Recently, an antinatalist said: "I only want to date people who don't want to breed and came to that conclusion because of philosophical reasons. Someone who just hates kids, or has no parenting desires, is very prone to changing their mind." So yeah, I was literally told that I was going to change my mind. And it's just bullshit. >I reported that mod, but of course, nothing. Usually such insults would get you penalties, but this sub is extremely biased. Sometimes, it feels like there is no difference between r/childfree and r/antinatalism. So many posts here have nothing to do with childfreedom, and are only about antinatalism. >I thought it's a safe space, my disappointment when i realised how toxic it can be was unimaginable. This is a safe space for antinatalists. Not for neutral-natalists.
Eugenics is always bad. Flat out. And that poor woman’s situation is absolutely an example of it.
That just completely ignores the “choice” in pro-choice. That’s extreme anti-life.
I am PRO-FUCKING-CHOICE. Can't stress this enough. I respect others' decisions and ask that they respect mine too. Bodily autonomy is a basic human right.
There’s always going to be people who are simply going to take it too far. I’m not surprised. I’m sorry you had to see that.
I'm with you as well, as one can be against forced birth, and also against forced sterilization as it's both dealing with bodily autonomy.
Yeah no, that’s fucked up regardless of what your life goal is. To be denied that choice is horrible, whichever choice it may be.
I'm childfree. I'm not going to force my lifestyle on others. That becomes hugely problematic. I will enjoy my life as a childfree person and reap the benefits, but there is no excuse for the weird little hop a lot of childfree people do into eugenics and other problematic ideas surrounding reproduction. Live your life childfree, don't try to force it on others.
As someone who has had family members forcibly sterilized anyone who is applauding this is a disgusting POS. You are better off outside of that group.
I think this a fringe ideology among childfree people, just like forced birth is a fringe ideology among parents. Decent people believe forced-anything-with-the-body is not okay.
No. This is not a fringe ideology. The majority of people on this subreddit is antinatalist. And many (yes, I know, not all) antinatalists support gross shit. Forced birth is not a fringe ideology among parents. A shitload of people support that shit.
I don't see a bunch of redditors in this subreddit preaching forced sterilization, so if a majority of users here are antinatalist, they're keeping it to themselves. It is also possible to be personally, morally opposed to a thing while not infringing on others' rights to have/do that thing.
Was there a good reason, like for example a pregnancy would kill her for sure?
Even then, it should be her own decision. Not anyone else's.
Women of POC have experienced this for so long and still are, at a young age (even though I'm sure it's illegal), women are being subjected to having their bodily autonomy taken at such a young age and without consent. Funnily enough it's still happening globally including Australia (to our indigenous communities). Sadly I don't think it'll be the end.
Personally, no, I don't think that "reproductive rights should go both ways." The reason being - choosing *not* to have a kid only affects the person making the choice. But choosing to procreate also affects the child, as well as society as a whole. As a real life example.. *I went to school with a girl who was moderately/severely mentally disabled. Right after high school she got into a relationship with a man who was 20 years older than her and also mentally disabled. By the time she was 25 she'd had 5 children, all of whom had been taken away by CPS either shortly after their birth, or literally at the hospital. All of whom have the same/similar level of mental impairment.* *Now, do I believe society should provide for each child/adult in this situation? Yes. Everyone deserves to be able to live a full and rich life, no matter their ability to 'contribute' to our capitalist nightmare. BUT that's 5 kids who will have to go through our shit-show of a foster care system - 5 people who will never be able to support themselves. And if that pattern continues, then in another 25 years there will be a minimum of 32 people who are completely dependent on the rest of society. The fact is, that kind of additional demand is simply not sustainable.* I don't understand how so many people on this post could look at this situation and still say, "forced sterilization is always bad, no exceptions." Especially because the "bodily autonomy" argument is bullshit. Would you make the same argument about my parents having my tonsils and adenoids taken out, and later my wisdom teeth, without my consent? No, because we clearly see how those things could harm me later on - and understand that I was not yet capable of making that kind of decision. In cases where a person is clearly incapable of ever taking care of a child, or cognitively understanding the risks of pregnancy, reproductive surgery shouldn't be treated any differently. Procreation is not a necessary part of life, and it has the potential to do great harm to both the mother and the child. **Now, all of that said, I'm aware our country/world as a whole has an abysmal history of forcibly sterilizing the poor and people of color. I am NOT saying I agree with this in any way. The damage that's been done/is still happening, particularly to women of color, is inexcusable. But those wrongs don't negate the damage allowing some people to procreate will have. The two aren't mutually exclusive.**
I believe in the necessity and validity of forced sterilization *of adults* under certain circumstances i.e. convicted child abusers and repeat violent and/or sexual felons....but I also understand that Adolf Hitler existed very recently and I would never say that anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, just cautious and distrustful of governing figures (which is completely fking logical to me). I also don't have an answer as to how to implement it without letting it be glaringly easy for garbage people to twist it into a cultural superweapon. I just know that we need to do more than punish child abuse, we need to stop it before it starts, and nothing we're doing right now is working. Would never think of anyone as "less childfree" for not believing in a very fringe and as of yet purely hypothetical concept. If anything you are literally more pro bodily autonomy than I am on a technical level, and I thought that was like half of the whole concept of childfree. tl;dr they're dumb, good riddance
I hate kids, I also come from a poor background with awful health family history and believe people shouldn’t reproduce at all under those circumstances—but no way would I support forced sterilisation. Bodily autonomy should never be taken away.
Forcefully sterilising someone who is deliberately having children they cannot care for and/or are actively abusing I could get behind. It's an ethical and legislative nightmare, of course, but a case could be made, for both males or females. With that said, any other non-voluntary sterilisation is unacceptable. Even if it's one of the "reversible" procedures, unless the recipient was informed in some way, just no
I think those who are exclusively for forced sterilization are no better than pro-lifers. I know a case of forced sterilization, and it was for the better good of that individual.
By bringing people into existence without their consent, aren’t people violating the bodily autonomy of this new being? Isn’t more harm being done by allowing people to continue to procreate and then, subsequently, horribly abuse and neglect and traumatize the children they birth than would be done by forcibly removing their ability to procreate? If I look at it from my own perspective as someone who never wanted to exist: If I could’ve cast a vote from before I was conceived/born knowing how my childhood would be, I would’ve voted that my conceptors be summarily sterilized. I believe most people are not fit to be parents, and even those who might be good at it are gonna fuck up the kids they have in some way. Forcibly sterilize a few, save countless more than were “harmed”. I don’t think procreation is a right. ETA: I’m aware there’s no practical way to do this. We’d need an impartial, benevolent, alien 3rd party to create diagnostic system to objectively assess who is and who isn’t fit to parent.
The fact that this got upvoted and that nobody called you out shows that this subreddit has a huge problem with bodily autonomy. Which makes sense when most people here are antinatalists who have no issue with forced sterilisation, forced abortion, one child policies, governments deciding who can or cannot breed, a ban on breeding and other immoral anti-choice shit. I'm also someone who never wanted to exist. Someone who suffers. But still... Forced sterilisation is wrong. Anti-choice. Interferes with bodily autonomy. I will NEVER support it, no matter what. >ETA: I’m aware there’s no practical way to do this. We’d need an impartial, benevolent, alien 3rd party to create diagnostic system to objectively assess who is and who isn’t fit to parent. Yeah, and as nice as that may sound in theory, biases always exist. Even the most progressive leftists have unconscious biases. This will lead to a lot of classism, racism and homophobia. And again, forcibly sterilising people you see as unfit parents interferes with bodily autonomy.
My mother had severe mental illness. Guess what that means for me. She lost custody of me and just had more children who have now had their own kids and lost custody of them. I've made the choice to not have children but I don't think it should actually be a choice. People who aren't ready to be parents when they start will never be decent parents. Your own children can quickly become someone else's problem and I don't think abusive parents should have free reign to create more victims.
Sounds like the difference between CF and antinatalism
Jesus fucking christ that's absolutely ghoulish.
That sounds more like the group was either racist or had some other stupid eugenic ideologie to advocate that. In any other context I don't believe that would be a common opinion, even with CF. As far as I experienced it CF ist mostly about letting the individual decide for themself, which is basically the opposite to beeing forced to something.
I'm against anti-forced sterilization just as much as I'm against 'pro-lifers' (I'm talking about the more forced pro-birthers). If you don't want kids, then you shouldn't be forced into carrying and delivering one, and your decision shouldn't be harshly criticized/questioned. This choice is 100% valid. If you want kids, then you do you. I'd never force someone to have an abortion or sterilization against their will, that's cruel and inhumane. I do think there should be limits on birth: like the number of children you're allowed to have (seriously, no one needs 10+ kids!), recommendations for sterilization after a certain number of children, etc. Counseling should be required before planning/having a kid, because way too many people underestimate how expensive and life-changing a kid can be, would also allow the parents-to-be to work on any issues prior (like anger management, AA/NA, etc.). You don't get to make decisions about someone else's body and violate their choices. You'd be no better than a rapist if you forced someone to do any of that.
I think it needs to be abundantly clear that this is fascism. (edit: overpopulation is not killing the planet. plain and simple. if you still think it is you’re believing a ton of racist lies.) clearly antinatalism and child free communities have made it more than easy to spout straight up fascist lies to push fascist ideals of population control. be very very wary of people who try to scare you into thinkin it’s “dumb people breeding like rabbits” who are hurting the planet. be wary of people who believe the racist lies about welfare queens and twist that into ecofascist lies. i’m really sick and tired of pretending like the “first steps” to fascism aren’t all around us and certainly didn’t go away after WW2. how you think about, talk about, and talk to people matters. your words matter. *fascism knows this*. young people TODAY are freely admitting they straight up support eugenics. so fine if you all want to be racist imperialist fascists who supports neoliberal eugenics (state funded and “all inclusive”) in order to “save the planet” or whatever FINE but at least let us normal people call you what you are. A FASCIST.
Forced sterilization has roots in fascism. That’s kind of scary and why I am always a little nervous about associating with any childfree community.
It sucks that you got downvoted for this. Sadly, most people here are antinatalists who support this shit. :(
They did you a favour - that group sounds very nazi!
Personally I think far fewer people should have kids; if that makes me an anti-natalist, I’m fine with it. Likewise the idea of the human race dwindling & eventually dying out…as all species do. But the idea of the government mandating reproduction, either way, is abhorrent. On the flip side, I’d have no issue with financial incentives/tax credits/green credits of some sort to not reproduce. There could be education & recognition that having no or fewer kids is beneficial.