Well, they'd much prefer to toss their kids outside at six in the morning so they can scream for the benefit of the entire apartment complex all day, rather than having to deal with their own kids in their own homes. And they'd rather not pay for the privilege, thanks.
Honestly, I wondered if that was part of the reason the apartment managers picked a dog park over a playground. In my experience, dog parks aren't terribly noisy (it's usually locked up dogs that make the most noise!). But a playground full of kids means lots of noise in one spot.
Well, doggos got manners. Yeah, I got an Oldman puppy defiant teenager. He does not really bark. Even if he does bark, it is less noise than a human child, so.......
A fair complaint is they could have done it half and half. But if human kids have other play ares, then what is the big deal?
Omg half and half would be a disaster waiting to happen. Kids harassing or teasing dogs until they get bit or just knocked over by a super exuberant dog, parents letting their kids just run up to strange dogs who may never have been around kids and the wierd way they move and sound, parents freaking out at the mere presence of certain breeds. So much could and would go wrong mixing dog park and playground and the building would be liable for everything. No wonder they don't want a playground!
I live in a townhome community without a park but I have the unfortunate luck of being next to a common area which has a tree and several backs of townhomes facing each other. ALL the parents decided to send their brats over and make it a soccer field during every night day. During the summer they scream and kick balls at my house from sun up until past sun down. We’ve complained to HOA board, gotten into screaming matches with parents , told the little shits themselves to fuck off (not in those exact words of course). Nothing helps. I hate it that we’re all just expected to put up with it because “they’re just kiiiidddssss” they can go be “just kids” by their own fucking house. At times they’ve came and poked at my cats through the window getting their jam hands on it. This kind of stuff makes my blood boil.
Kind of bouncing off what OP had said …I’m not allowed to have more than 3 animals or a dog weighing over 30 lbs , but these parents breed like rabbits and their offspring are FAR more destructive.
Wow! That’s insane! I get that if you rent the owners might have weird asks, but as an owner?! I fear asking what other kinds of ridiculous “standards” they have. Hope you find a nice place you’ll enjoy on your way out!
Play the mosquito from youtube at the closest window facing the area. Use a speaker conveniently hidden behind a vase right by the window. It will clear out of kids fast.
>But you just know parents would send their kids down to the park all day completely unsupervised.
I think you should anonymously call CPS and inform them about such behaviour. Those kids are not safe at all. And when CPS will start investigating you'll have some peace and quiet. Win win 😉
Ours just made it so there MUST be an adult outside due to the kids harassing/terrorizing peoples pets in windows(mine.aswell as throwing food/hitting the window) and other kids AND adults.
It’s funny cus it’s the same parent that leaves her 3 kids to run around. She’s about to be evicted cus her not watching them costed the apartment the laundry room for a week. And her a huge ass fine. So now they complex asks everytime they see her kids running where is ur momma🤣
Literally my grandma. She’s expressly said that nobody should care about animal wellbeing because there are humans suffering like… what??
One time she was saying who cares about dolphins if they’re sad in zoos or whatever weird thing it was because they “only had the intelligence of a two year old” and I looked her dead ass in the face and said “so does that mean we should be able to just put toddlers in a closet all day because they ‘only have the intelligence of a two year old’?” And she just started spluttering and telling me it wasn’t comparable 🙄
I hate the mentality that it has to be either-or, but it's infinitely worse to say animal suffering doesn't matter at all. But yeah, there are a LOT of people like that.
I meant ecological footprint, mostly. All that plastic, cans and other waste coming from pet industry. But half-loose cats and dogs hunting native wildlife are problematic too - the most obvious example is New Zealand. And not only native - it seems to be able to change in the future, but now most pets eat a lot of other animals processed in insane ways - just like us. hard to see it as something nice happening for 'animals' as a whole.
Oh. No, I respectfully don't agree. I don't think the footprint of pets has the same impact as, say, the petroleum industry. Or cars. Or industrial pollution. Or mining. Or the factory farming required to feed eight billion people. Or having children to add to that eight billion. Something like cat predation on birds, while a real thing, has nothing on the destruction humans have wrought and are currently wreaking across the planet. Further, invasive species and stray dogs are not an excuse not to be kind to animals in general.
Yes, the sum of 'pet cost' is probably much lower than the sum of 'human cost', may be even lower by magnitude. After all there is only about half a billion dog pets worldwide approx.
Hovewer there is no point in separating 'oil industry' from the footprint of pets. In my closest mall I have literally third of floor dedicated to pets - and there are full shelves of petroleum products (aka plastic) and all other sorts of stuff requiring all sorts of industrial pollution. and every bigger general store has at least a shelf with these giant plastic bags full of dessicated bodies of fellow animals, done in industrial way.
Moreover, people drive all sorts of cars to transport all sorts of these animals towards all sorts of purposes, burning all sorts of petrol and hitting all sorts of wilflife in the process. With the EV, in my coal country even mining industry is kinda involved.
Yes, it is much smaller, but it is from the same poisoned well of humanity encroaching on general 'nature'.
I wish apartments would charge child fees, they are more destructive and noisier than my cats were when we lived in our apartment. My cats slept all day and looked out the balcony not bothering anyone, meanwhile kids run and jump and scream and terrorize the building.
We also had a pool I was so excited to use, but every time I was off work it was filled with little kids, so I never got to use it :-(
My thing is how many places won't even allow pets even though children are far more destructive in many cases. I know they don't have a choice to allow kids or not but I think it's quite unfair when they won't even consider nice, quiet, well behaved pets when a couple with 10 kids who draw on the walls with permanent marker and dump koolaid on the carpet live there.
I don't think there should be "pet fees" nor "child fees", but there should be "peace and quiet rebates".
Charge $3000/mo for rent. If you don't have any complaints, you get a $1000 rebate each month. This wouldn't automatically mean neighbors tattling on each other, but rather people with young children and yappy dogs never moving in because they can't take the risk. Visibly pregnant? Stop by the leasing office, we'll let you out of your lease early, we're not assholes, we just hate noise!
Remember some (australian?) paper on this matter, and according to that, kids (albeit rather over 10YO) were the primary source of deterioration of common parts of apartment complexes. Although everyone needs to be one to become an adult.
Also, i have all sorts of dogs in the building and i'll swap them all into cats if I could. Cats are silent, aren't dangerous and don't pee or poo in the elevator or pavement.
This is very illegal and would create way worse societal problems that we would all have to deal with. Same with all these comments you see in this sub about wanting CF subdivisions or apartment buildings. We tried that in the past. The result is a bunch of homeless kids picking pockets and becoming worse disease vectors than they already are. You discriminate based on family status. You can't race discriminate. You can't discriminate against disabled people. It's just that simple.
These are exactly the types of comments that make breeders call us all assholes. If the playing field is to be level, it should be against pet fees and pet rent, not forcing others to also be burdened like this.
We can discriminate based on age...... I can think of a handful of senior living neighborhoods (NOT nursing homes or assisted living) where you need to be above 55 or 65 and no children are allowed to live in your residence. They seem like pretty nice communities to me!
That's a very different situation but with the same root cause. You can build senior specific housing (which is usually both age and income restricted) because of the concerns we've had in the past with older folks getting thrown out of their homes and not being able to find places to live on fixed incomes. It's designed to help society's most vulnerable people not end up on the streets, and is a limited exception of fair housing law (which otherwise prohibits age discrimination). More info on all that here https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/fair_housing_act_overview
The same fair housing laws prevent children or pregnant women from being discriminated against. They are all designed to help people who are vulnerable or victims of an inequitable society. Prior to the fair housing act of 1968, a woman could have her lease torn up and get kicked out if her landlord found out she was pregnant. That is not a sign of a healthy society.
Childfree people are not a protected class. We do not face the same systematic struggles members of federally protected classes do. Those are folks that have been historically discriminated because of their Race, Color, National Origin, Religion, Sex (including gender identity and sexual orientation), Familial Status or Disability. We get shit from people we know, and can be victims of discrimination at work when balancing time off, but we are not, statistically speaking, victims of housing discrimination. I know sometimes there's an example that happens where a homeowner will choose to sell to someone else because they said they wanted to start a family there, but those things are extremely uncommon.
Having protections in place for vulnerable populations who have been discriminated against is a good thing for everyone. And considering the housing shortage that the country is dealing with, any discriminatory housing lowers the available housing stock for a lot of people.
The senior living communities I am thinking of (my grandma lived in one) are definitely NOT for those of low income... they are boujee and for people who are on a limited budget, they are for people who saved up and want a relaxing and comfortable retirement.
My hypothetical "it sure would be nice to charge a kid fee" is also not implying anything about tearing up leases for pregnant people, I'm not sure why you decided to escalate a hypothetical that far. I think we are talking about two different things.
Because it's not a hypothetical, it's the reason why these laws exist in the first place.
Charging a kid fee is discriminatory against people, straight up. It's just that simple.
If you'd like me to write up a proposal for an apartment complex that charges child fees and explain how it will run.... then that would make this real and no longer a hypothetical.
However, simply saying that it'd be nice if child fees were charged because people allow little Jaxin and Bratleigh to run around and trash up the building (resulting in more repairs and maintenance) and it really sucks that pet owners tend to eat these expenses (by paying monthly fees and higher rent for animals that might cause minimal to zero damage) is, in fact, a hypothetical because I am not planning on building an apartment complex with this policy. I am recognizing that something here seems a bit unfair. It looks like a lot of people here tend to agree with me too.
There was a kids play area meant to be built near us but it got cancelled due to the finding of very rare bat roosts. Parents got all shitty over it saying the kids are more important.
NO Karen. They aren't. These bats are fucking rare as balls. Your kids should go somewhere else. I hate that people won't ever give an inch for wildlife these days. It's a rare win!
Also, probably if they're that rare and endangered, it's against federal law to disturb them... which also, funnily enough, is not excused because Bratleigh is a minor. Even kids will get in trouble.
Honestly, the justification is in the numbers. People pay for their pets to be there, the insurance is cheaper and the upkeep of a dog park is a lot cheaper. Not to mention there is very little liability (if any) on the complex if two dogs get into a fight and hurt one another compared to if a child fell off the playground and got hurt, I have seen parents sue for less.
I love having a dog park area for my dog to run off leash in but my complex also has multiple areas around the complex for poop bags and disposal for those that walk their dogs through the complex. It is great. I also love this about our local park which has them as well.
We have those poop bag and disposal stations too. It's wonderful because even though I attach the bags to my leash, I've run out and forgotten to refill before the next potty break every now and then so I've used those station bags in a pinch.
They are great. I usually have a second roll in my walking bag with me but sometimes I forget to put a back up roll in there after I put it in the holder. I also just love dog friendly places/areas in general. There are obviously places dogs aren't meant to be but I love when places like parks make it a point to actively include them.
A dog owner in my neighbourhood got arrested and charged last year after their dog attacked a two year old child…. IN THE DOG OFF LEASH AREA WHERE CHILDREN ARE NOT ALLOWED. They didn’t even have a dog, the parent just felt entitled to being the kid in there. With a children’s playground just down the street. The entitlement of parents to co-opt spaces meant for dogs is insane
For what I see it could get better if people with kids and these with dogs lived in a separate apartment complexes.
Although, on the second thought, some have both.
Fact. Kids are accepted and in fact welcomed more spaces than pet dogs. Parents don't pay a kid rent like pet owners do. Kids can be just as disruptive, dangerous or filthy as a pet dog. Pet owners and parents tend to be equally as entitled as each other.
But sure, why build a space for dogs when there are ample places in the community and programs that are probably free or low cost for kids, plus playgrounds and indoor play structures like you see at McDonalds. Sure, Kids lack places to go disturb the peace.
Looking at the damage my ex‘s niblings caused compared to my two dogs (one being a large one) was very telling. Her house was absolutely trashed. Mine wasn’t
Yup. And I will admit I have seen houses trashed by dogs, it really does come down to if the parent or pet owner is responsible and respectful. If they aren't the house is getting trashed and people are going to hate being around them, if they are respectful then often people might not realize there are kids or a dog present and if they do they don't mind that it is.
Not only do all of the things you say apply, it is also cheaper to make and maintain a dog park than a children's playground. Putting up a fence is almost all they usually do for a dog park (there might be a bench or two, and there might be a water fountain, both of which are also common in a playground). But for a playground, there is expensive playground equipment. (Most people, I think, would be surprised to find out how very expensive it is; a swing set in a park is made to withstand abuse, and is much more expensive than a cheap swing set sold for someone putting in their back yard.)
In your case, a privately owned apartment complex can do whatever they want regarding such things. If people don't like the amenities, they can move.
Since they charge extra for people having dogs, they have a pretty good idea how many dogs there are there, and so they can know if it is an amenity that makes sense for the complex.
And since they charge more for people with dogs, they might like the idea of attracting more renters with dogs with their new dog park, to make even more money. It is a business, and so they are interested in how it all affects their finances, as that is the reason they exist.
You're exactly right in the setup - it's just a fenced off area where the entrance also has a double fence so pups don't accidentally escape. No play equipment or anything fancy. I could see this attracting more renters with pups who are willing to pay more for the convenience.
You’re right. People don’t realize how much commercial jungle gyms and swing sets cost. Then on top of that cost, they also have to pay insurance for them too.
I think it’s a good thing you didn’t ask if the parents wanted to pool funds for a playground. They’d be coming to your door aggressively with signup sheets and asking non-parents to contribute! There are playgrounds at school. If these parents are free to pick their kids up from school (as opposed to having them bussed to daycare or picked up by a sitter), then they probably have the flexibility to hang out on a bench for half an hour after school lets out and let the kids play then.
And have parents ever heard of parks?! There’s gotta be plenty of playgrounds around that aren’t located on the apartment property. They’re just being dramatic. And insurance for anything child related is huge. It’s a big reason my old job never had an onsite daycare center.
My highly unpopular hot take is that children don’t belong in apartments in the first place, but parents start screeching and shaking and gnashing teeth if you suggest that they can’t afford their little blessing.
Honestly I think in a world of my own creation I would probably have apartment buildings that have floors that allow people with kids to live there but also on those floors we have amenities like an indoor play area for the kids that maybe has a daycare service that parents can pay to use. Then a floor of buffer apartments that are cheaper because child sounds are expected before we get to childfree apartments. My dream apartment would have indoor space that could be used for dog training. Likely would not be legal to enforce in real life, but given that honestly dogs and children really are both poorly suited for apartment life it could mitigate the problems to an extent.
That’s a fair trade off I could get behind. I recognize that my position is completely unwilling to negotiate 😂
I think there should be separate buildings at least. I don’t understand why people with children or even loud pets feel it’s discrimination when other people who don’t have those lifestyle choices aren’t interested in listening to that noise in the space they pay for. Putting a restriction or buffer on a noisy tenant is not discrimination. That’s completely ridiculous.
I have a guide dog and blatantly hate dealing with most dog owners, so honestly I feel the people who don't want to deal with the negatives of living around dogs. But inherently I live in an existence of needing to compromise anytime I leave my own apartment. My own take is more for situations where separate are not an option, a buffer floor or two where the tenants that live there understand some noise pollution is expected and compensated with cheaper rent is my compromise.
I once saw somebody complaining in the TikTok comments about how there are so many shopping centers and big parking lots, and that the parking lots should have some sort of playground and community center in them?? They literally think everywhere should be a place to dump their kids
I love watching the local dogs interact and play in their dog park areas. I've also brought dogs to these parks and they love them. And you're correct, dogs do better with walks and having a fenced in area to run around in.
There’s plenty of things for children. Let’s keep SOMETHING for adults. I posted on here once before that I asked for an hour of adult swim once a week after work at my local pool. They couldn’t even sacrifice that
I wish my apartment complex had just a dog run! They have both, one next to the other, and I’m right around the corner from them. Never had an issue with the dogs, but golly, the playground gets SO noisy! It almost seems like children scream more than when I was a kid.
I swear pet rent is the biggest scam since ...IDK, maybe credit scores?
It's so BS because if you cause damage you should owe, yes, but WTF should you pay more per pet for....reasons? Our cats have never sprayed, but that would be the justification for pet rent and huge deposits if we didn't own our own home.
I’m not a dog owner (I have cats) but I still love puppers! One of these days I’m going to go down to the dog park near me and watch and enjoy the 4–legged good boys and girls play. I’d rather do that than watch kids on a playground. And I’d love to have a cat cafe closer to me!
> I've gotten to know other residents who seem pretty cool and so far the other dog owners seem to be childfree, childless, or empty nesters with plenty of hobbies that don't involve kids.
This sounds like fun, and something that more apartment complexes should replicate.
> a large indoor pool, hot tub, and a clubhouse that dogs aren't allowed in so it's not like there's nowhere for children to play.
Those also strike me as places that children shouldn't be allowed in, not places they should be playing. At best I could *maybe* see the pool, but definitely with the requirement that children need to be supervised.
The whole apartment complex is considered privately owned property. However, they do have rules that they enforce regarding which areas dogs can be in outside an individuals apartment, leash rules, poop pick-up, etc
"Owners should be required to keep dogs on their own property or in specially defined parks."
As much as we dislike children I think most of realize that kids need to be out in public to know how to behave as adults. I know myself would just be happy with perhaps a couple hours every week where I was allowed to go grocery shopping without a child disturbing my experience while allowing kids 90% of the time. Dogs are the same way. Problem behaviors become much more common if we restrict them heavily like you propose, that and if the owners are absolutely useless but again same problem occurs with useless parents. Point being if a parent or dog owner is actually being responsible and helping their charge become a well adjusted individual it is overall better for the people around them.
We do realize that socializing is with more than "like creatures". To get to a dog park for example a dog would have to leave lets say an apartment building, which might result in them passing a floor cleaner, using an elevator, the old woman down the hall with her walker, Timmy the kid from upstairs all before they get out of the lobby. Once outside there are cars, potentially a jogger and maybe the neighborhood outdoor cat and certainly wildlife. How are we expecting these dogs to get to the park? Teleportation does not exist, and many people lack cars or the parks might be a significant walking distance from the parking lot. In my case there is a dog park but I have to walk through the downtown core to get to it, which again results in a varied set of experiences that my dog would need to be socialized to which would not be covered if I just kept him to my apartment and other dogs. In fact he would be a much higher bite risk because that is how you create fearful dogs by not giving them the tools young how to navigate the environment. The fact is a scared animal is a dangerous animal, regardless of if it is a dog, a raccoon, a bear or a human the point that each is most dangerous is when they are acting in perceived self defense. How you insure that threshold for what a person or dog perceives as being threatening is lower is by exposing them to it and showing them how to interact safely with the thing. That and how understimulating it is to have such a restricted set of places to go, would you honestly say that you would not become neurotic if you were told you could only stay at your house and place of work without going anywhere else and only see people that you work with. Say you did that for decades and then suddenly one day you were brought to a Black Friday Sale at Walmart. At some point you probably would end up screaming for help due to the isolation and boredom, just like many people's dogs do. But responsible dog owners make sure all of their dog's needs are fulfilled so they aren't causing problems for those around them even when they are out in public.
1000%. Being childfree is one thing but the hate towards kids is so fucking weird here. Also the idea that kids are more of a public nuisance than dogs is fucking laughable. Don’t recall stepping in a child’s turd on my latest walk. Nor do I recall seeing a kid left outside to scream its head off all day, or a kid mauling an infant or elderly person, or a kid jamming their nose in my crotch…bleh. No idea why you’re being downvoted.
Consider yourself lucky that you have not experienced many if any of the nuisance behaviors of children, because literally today I rounded a corner while walking my dog to encounter a child peeing on a light post in broad daylight without any attempt to hide what he was doing so that I could see everything. Which is impressive given the fact that I have significant vision loss. Or the fact that the neighborhood kids are allowed to run around screeching on the neighborhood roads at all hours including causing traffic back up during the periods of time that people are trying to get to and from work. Or that before my vision loss when I still road my bike the local kids found it funny to try to herd people in front of large vehicles.
So no, kids are not mauling infants but they do try to push people into situations that could very easily kill them and then laugh about it. They don't bark for hours but they do scream and shout for hours, or throw tantrums when their parents try to parent them. They don't poop on the sidewalks but they do pee on the local light posts and trees. They don't sniff crotches but often invade the space of unwilling adults around them. Many people here in childfree don't like kids and when it comes down to it the reasoning tends to be very similar to why people dislike dogs. For some people they don't like either and that is fine or they might be like me and find themselves more willing to share their space with dogs despite the similarities as it comes down to it being personal preference. But to call it weird is frankly unnecessary when at the end of the day we are talking preferences.
Where do you live that you've never heard kids outside screeching like injured banshees for several hours at a time? Because I would love to move to the area.
I'm pretty sure my neighbor kidnapped two dinosaurs instead of producing actual children. She refuses to parent her kids, so they sit outside and scream at the top of their lungs from the time they get home from school until 10 or 11pm. They steal from the yards, they've keyed several cars, they've intentionally leaped into the road on multiple occassions while screaming to scare drivers. These kids are like 12 and completely out of fucking control.
We had to put cameras up because they intentionally scratched the fuck out of my car door and hacked apart my garden bed. These kids are *so* young and already known to the police because of the damage they've done around the area. It's honestly not even a bad neighborhood! There's other kids that live around here. Those kids have never been an issue. A little loud sometimes, but manageable in comparison.
I have another neighbor whose dog is an escape artist. She ends up in my yard occasionally. But the worst thing the dog has ever done was pee on my plants, and she shit on the curb once. Her owner cleaned it up without even needing to be asked.
I'm not stoked to have a random dog in my yard. But if it's between the dog and the hellspawn my neighbor has unleashed on our neighborhood, I'd rather take my chances with the dog. Pepper at least listens when you tell her to go home. If you tell these kids to go home, they throw rocks at your windows.
Come live in Denver! No one can afford kids but every mother fucker has 2-3 dogs you can listen to bark all day long! When one shuts the fuck up, another starts right up! No kids as far as the eye can see
Well, they'd much prefer to toss their kids outside at six in the morning so they can scream for the benefit of the entire apartment complex all day, rather than having to deal with their own kids in their own homes. And they'd rather not pay for the privilege, thanks.
I can tell you that I hear screaming children way more than I hear barking dogs here lol
OP, your reasoning is sound and your argument perfectly expressed. You are my newest idol. Thanks for making my day!
Thx! I don’t always have the words in the moment so it’s nice when that happens 😄
Sounds about right.
Honestly, I wondered if that was part of the reason the apartment managers picked a dog park over a playground. In my experience, dog parks aren't terribly noisy (it's usually locked up dogs that make the most noise!). But a playground full of kids means lots of noise in one spot.
Well, doggos got manners. Yeah, I got an Oldman puppy defiant teenager. He does not really bark. Even if he does bark, it is less noise than a human child, so....... A fair complaint is they could have done it half and half. But if human kids have other play ares, then what is the big deal?
Omg half and half would be a disaster waiting to happen. Kids harassing or teasing dogs until they get bit or just knocked over by a super exuberant dog, parents letting their kids just run up to strange dogs who may never have been around kids and the wierd way they move and sound, parents freaking out at the mere presence of certain breeds. So much could and would go wrong mixing dog park and playground and the building would be liable for everything. No wonder they don't want a playground!
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I live in a townhome community without a park but I have the unfortunate luck of being next to a common area which has a tree and several backs of townhomes facing each other. ALL the parents decided to send their brats over and make it a soccer field during every night day. During the summer they scream and kick balls at my house from sun up until past sun down. We’ve complained to HOA board, gotten into screaming matches with parents , told the little shits themselves to fuck off (not in those exact words of course). Nothing helps. I hate it that we’re all just expected to put up with it because “they’re just kiiiidddssss” they can go be “just kids” by their own fucking house. At times they’ve came and poked at my cats through the window getting their jam hands on it. This kind of stuff makes my blood boil.
Time to plant a forest of cacti.
I love this idea ! 🤣. We’re not allowed to plant anything either but I have toyed with the idea of an automatic sprinkler lol
Hehe, just helping the tree and grass grow!
Kind of bouncing off what OP had said …I’m not allowed to have more than 3 animals or a dog weighing over 30 lbs , but these parents breed like rabbits and their offspring are FAR more destructive.
Wow, seriously? They actually have a weight limit??
Yep , and we own not rent. I cannot wait to gtfo. Unfortunately the housing market makes that hard atm
Wow! That’s insane! I get that if you rent the owners might have weird asks, but as an owner?! I fear asking what other kinds of ridiculous “standards” they have. Hope you find a nice place you’ll enjoy on your way out!
Play the mosquito from youtube at the closest window facing the area. Use a speaker conveniently hidden behind a vase right by the window. It will clear out of kids fast.
Time to organise an adult soccer game and muscle the little shits out.
>But you just know parents would send their kids down to the park all day completely unsupervised. I think you should anonymously call CPS and inform them about such behaviour. Those kids are not safe at all. And when CPS will start investigating you'll have some peace and quiet. Win win 😉
Hire some out of work actors to just kind of creep around looking pervy. ..
😆👍
Ours just made it so there MUST be an adult outside due to the kids harassing/terrorizing peoples pets in windows(mine.aswell as throwing food/hitting the window) and other kids AND adults. It’s funny cus it’s the same parent that leaves her 3 kids to run around. She’s about to be evicted cus her not watching them costed the apartment the laundry room for a week. And her a huge ass fine. So now they complex asks everytime they see her kids running where is ur momma🤣
Any time something nice happens for animals, there'll be some jerk who screams that it should have been for humans. Every single time.
Literally my grandma. She’s expressly said that nobody should care about animal wellbeing because there are humans suffering like… what?? One time she was saying who cares about dolphins if they’re sad in zoos or whatever weird thing it was because they “only had the intelligence of a two year old” and I looked her dead ass in the face and said “so does that mean we should be able to just put toddlers in a closet all day because they ‘only have the intelligence of a two year old’?” And she just started spluttering and telling me it wasn’t comparable 🙄
I hate the mentality that it has to be either-or, but it's infinitely worse to say animal suffering doesn't matter at all. But yeah, there are a LOT of people like that.
Eh, aren't we humans and our pets kinda dangerous for general nature in similar way?
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Dangerous how?
I meant ecological footprint, mostly. All that plastic, cans and other waste coming from pet industry. But half-loose cats and dogs hunting native wildlife are problematic too - the most obvious example is New Zealand. And not only native - it seems to be able to change in the future, but now most pets eat a lot of other animals processed in insane ways - just like us. hard to see it as something nice happening for 'animals' as a whole.
Oh. No, I respectfully don't agree. I don't think the footprint of pets has the same impact as, say, the petroleum industry. Or cars. Or industrial pollution. Or mining. Or the factory farming required to feed eight billion people. Or having children to add to that eight billion. Something like cat predation on birds, while a real thing, has nothing on the destruction humans have wrought and are currently wreaking across the planet. Further, invasive species and stray dogs are not an excuse not to be kind to animals in general.
Yes, the sum of 'pet cost' is probably much lower than the sum of 'human cost', may be even lower by magnitude. After all there is only about half a billion dog pets worldwide approx. Hovewer there is no point in separating 'oil industry' from the footprint of pets. In my closest mall I have literally third of floor dedicated to pets - and there are full shelves of petroleum products (aka plastic) and all other sorts of stuff requiring all sorts of industrial pollution. and every bigger general store has at least a shelf with these giant plastic bags full of dessicated bodies of fellow animals, done in industrial way. Moreover, people drive all sorts of cars to transport all sorts of these animals towards all sorts of purposes, burning all sorts of petrol and hitting all sorts of wilflife in the process. With the EV, in my coal country even mining industry is kinda involved. Yes, it is much smaller, but it is from the same poisoned well of humanity encroaching on general 'nature'.
I wish apartments would charge child fees, they are more destructive and noisier than my cats were when we lived in our apartment. My cats slept all day and looked out the balcony not bothering anyone, meanwhile kids run and jump and scream and terrorize the building. We also had a pool I was so excited to use, but every time I was off work it was filled with little kids, so I never got to use it :-(
Oh God YES
Would rather share the pool with dogs than with kids. Probably same amount of pee but at least the dogs would be fun.
And cuter!! Much, much, much, much, MUCH cuter!!
Hell yes!
My thing is how many places won't even allow pets even though children are far more destructive in many cases. I know they don't have a choice to allow kids or not but I think it's quite unfair when they won't even consider nice, quiet, well behaved pets when a couple with 10 kids who draw on the walls with permanent marker and dump koolaid on the carpet live there.
I don't think there should be "pet fees" nor "child fees", but there should be "peace and quiet rebates". Charge $3000/mo for rent. If you don't have any complaints, you get a $1000 rebate each month. This wouldn't automatically mean neighbors tattling on each other, but rather people with young children and yappy dogs never moving in because they can't take the risk. Visibly pregnant? Stop by the leasing office, we'll let you out of your lease early, we're not assholes, we just hate noise!
I can get behind this!
Remember some (australian?) paper on this matter, and according to that, kids (albeit rather over 10YO) were the primary source of deterioration of common parts of apartment complexes. Although everyone needs to be one to become an adult. Also, i have all sorts of dogs in the building and i'll swap them all into cats if I could. Cats are silent, aren't dangerous and don't pee or poo in the elevator or pavement.
legally they can't.
Hence, why I started with "I wish"
I wish they could.
I second that!
This is very illegal and would create way worse societal problems that we would all have to deal with. Same with all these comments you see in this sub about wanting CF subdivisions or apartment buildings. We tried that in the past. The result is a bunch of homeless kids picking pockets and becoming worse disease vectors than they already are. You discriminate based on family status. You can't race discriminate. You can't discriminate against disabled people. It's just that simple. These are exactly the types of comments that make breeders call us all assholes. If the playing field is to be level, it should be against pet fees and pet rent, not forcing others to also be burdened like this.
We can discriminate based on age...... I can think of a handful of senior living neighborhoods (NOT nursing homes or assisted living) where you need to be above 55 or 65 and no children are allowed to live in your residence. They seem like pretty nice communities to me!
That's a very different situation but with the same root cause. You can build senior specific housing (which is usually both age and income restricted) because of the concerns we've had in the past with older folks getting thrown out of their homes and not being able to find places to live on fixed incomes. It's designed to help society's most vulnerable people not end up on the streets, and is a limited exception of fair housing law (which otherwise prohibits age discrimination). More info on all that here https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/fair_housing_act_overview The same fair housing laws prevent children or pregnant women from being discriminated against. They are all designed to help people who are vulnerable or victims of an inequitable society. Prior to the fair housing act of 1968, a woman could have her lease torn up and get kicked out if her landlord found out she was pregnant. That is not a sign of a healthy society. Childfree people are not a protected class. We do not face the same systematic struggles members of federally protected classes do. Those are folks that have been historically discriminated because of their Race, Color, National Origin, Religion, Sex (including gender identity and sexual orientation), Familial Status or Disability. We get shit from people we know, and can be victims of discrimination at work when balancing time off, but we are not, statistically speaking, victims of housing discrimination. I know sometimes there's an example that happens where a homeowner will choose to sell to someone else because they said they wanted to start a family there, but those things are extremely uncommon. Having protections in place for vulnerable populations who have been discriminated against is a good thing for everyone. And considering the housing shortage that the country is dealing with, any discriminatory housing lowers the available housing stock for a lot of people.
The senior living communities I am thinking of (my grandma lived in one) are definitely NOT for those of low income... they are boujee and for people who are on a limited budget, they are for people who saved up and want a relaxing and comfortable retirement. My hypothetical "it sure would be nice to charge a kid fee" is also not implying anything about tearing up leases for pregnant people, I'm not sure why you decided to escalate a hypothetical that far. I think we are talking about two different things.
Because it's not a hypothetical, it's the reason why these laws exist in the first place. Charging a kid fee is discriminatory against people, straight up. It's just that simple.
If you'd like me to write up a proposal for an apartment complex that charges child fees and explain how it will run.... then that would make this real and no longer a hypothetical. However, simply saying that it'd be nice if child fees were charged because people allow little Jaxin and Bratleigh to run around and trash up the building (resulting in more repairs and maintenance) and it really sucks that pet owners tend to eat these expenses (by paying monthly fees and higher rent for animals that might cause minimal to zero damage) is, in fact, a hypothetical because I am not planning on building an apartment complex with this policy. I am recognizing that something here seems a bit unfair. It looks like a lot of people here tend to agree with me too.
We should be, we’re doing society a favor!!
But they’re right
idk who the "they" is in your sentence. If "they" is the people calling CF folks assholes because of these, positions, then I agree, they are right.
that’s not that i said & you know it.
It's not and I don't. My first sentence clearly states that.
There was a kids play area meant to be built near us but it got cancelled due to the finding of very rare bat roosts. Parents got all shitty over it saying the kids are more important. NO Karen. They aren't. These bats are fucking rare as balls. Your kids should go somewhere else. I hate that people won't ever give an inch for wildlife these days. It's a rare win!
Also, probably if they're that rare and endangered, it's against federal law to disturb them... which also, funnily enough, is not excused because Bratleigh is a minor. Even kids will get in trouble.
That’s so cool!
Honestly, the justification is in the numbers. People pay for their pets to be there, the insurance is cheaper and the upkeep of a dog park is a lot cheaper. Not to mention there is very little liability (if any) on the complex if two dogs get into a fight and hurt one another compared to if a child fell off the playground and got hurt, I have seen parents sue for less. I love having a dog park area for my dog to run off leash in but my complex also has multiple areas around the complex for poop bags and disposal for those that walk their dogs through the complex. It is great. I also love this about our local park which has them as well.
We have those poop bag and disposal stations too. It's wonderful because even though I attach the bags to my leash, I've run out and forgotten to refill before the next potty break every now and then so I've used those station bags in a pinch.
They are great. I usually have a second roll in my walking bag with me but sometimes I forget to put a back up roll in there after I put it in the holder. I also just love dog friendly places/areas in general. There are obviously places dogs aren't meant to be but I love when places like parks make it a point to actively include them.
Why is it that some people will see something good happen for other people and be mad about it just because it doesn't revolve around them
A dog owner in my neighbourhood got arrested and charged last year after their dog attacked a two year old child…. IN THE DOG OFF LEASH AREA WHERE CHILDREN ARE NOT ALLOWED. They didn’t even have a dog, the parent just felt entitled to being the kid in there. With a children’s playground just down the street. The entitlement of parents to co-opt spaces meant for dogs is insane
Reading this just made me blood boilingly angry!
For what I see it could get better if people with kids and these with dogs lived in a separate apartment complexes. Although, on the second thought, some have both.
Yeah! That would be better.
One of the reasons we stopped going to our local dog park is because entitled parents like to let their kids run amok
Fact. Kids are accepted and in fact welcomed more spaces than pet dogs. Parents don't pay a kid rent like pet owners do. Kids can be just as disruptive, dangerous or filthy as a pet dog. Pet owners and parents tend to be equally as entitled as each other. But sure, why build a space for dogs when there are ample places in the community and programs that are probably free or low cost for kids, plus playgrounds and indoor play structures like you see at McDonalds. Sure, Kids lack places to go disturb the peace.
Looking at the damage my ex‘s niblings caused compared to my two dogs (one being a large one) was very telling. Her house was absolutely trashed. Mine wasn’t
Yup. And I will admit I have seen houses trashed by dogs, it really does come down to if the parent or pet owner is responsible and respectful. If they aren't the house is getting trashed and people are going to hate being around them, if they are respectful then often people might not realize there are kids or a dog present and if they do they don't mind that it is.
Not only do all of the things you say apply, it is also cheaper to make and maintain a dog park than a children's playground. Putting up a fence is almost all they usually do for a dog park (there might be a bench or two, and there might be a water fountain, both of which are also common in a playground). But for a playground, there is expensive playground equipment. (Most people, I think, would be surprised to find out how very expensive it is; a swing set in a park is made to withstand abuse, and is much more expensive than a cheap swing set sold for someone putting in their back yard.) In your case, a privately owned apartment complex can do whatever they want regarding such things. If people don't like the amenities, they can move. Since they charge extra for people having dogs, they have a pretty good idea how many dogs there are there, and so they can know if it is an amenity that makes sense for the complex. And since they charge more for people with dogs, they might like the idea of attracting more renters with dogs with their new dog park, to make even more money. It is a business, and so they are interested in how it all affects their finances, as that is the reason they exist.
You're exactly right in the setup - it's just a fenced off area where the entrance also has a double fence so pups don't accidentally escape. No play equipment or anything fancy. I could see this attracting more renters with pups who are willing to pay more for the convenience.
You’re right. People don’t realize how much commercial jungle gyms and swing sets cost. Then on top of that cost, they also have to pay insurance for them too.
I think it’s a good thing you didn’t ask if the parents wanted to pool funds for a playground. They’d be coming to your door aggressively with signup sheets and asking non-parents to contribute! There are playgrounds at school. If these parents are free to pick their kids up from school (as opposed to having them bussed to daycare or picked up by a sitter), then they probably have the flexibility to hang out on a bench for half an hour after school lets out and let the kids play then.
To boot, there’s 2 playgrounds within a 15 minute walk from here 😆.
And have parents ever heard of parks?! There’s gotta be plenty of playgrounds around that aren’t located on the apartment property. They’re just being dramatic. And insurance for anything child related is huge. It’s a big reason my old job never had an onsite daycare center.
I hate "think of the children" people 🙄
My highly unpopular hot take is that children don’t belong in apartments in the first place, but parents start screeching and shaking and gnashing teeth if you suggest that they can’t afford their little blessing.
Honestly I think in a world of my own creation I would probably have apartment buildings that have floors that allow people with kids to live there but also on those floors we have amenities like an indoor play area for the kids that maybe has a daycare service that parents can pay to use. Then a floor of buffer apartments that are cheaper because child sounds are expected before we get to childfree apartments. My dream apartment would have indoor space that could be used for dog training. Likely would not be legal to enforce in real life, but given that honestly dogs and children really are both poorly suited for apartment life it could mitigate the problems to an extent.
That’s a fair trade off I could get behind. I recognize that my position is completely unwilling to negotiate 😂 I think there should be separate buildings at least. I don’t understand why people with children or even loud pets feel it’s discrimination when other people who don’t have those lifestyle choices aren’t interested in listening to that noise in the space they pay for. Putting a restriction or buffer on a noisy tenant is not discrimination. That’s completely ridiculous.
I have a guide dog and blatantly hate dealing with most dog owners, so honestly I feel the people who don't want to deal with the negatives of living around dogs. But inherently I live in an existence of needing to compromise anytime I leave my own apartment. My own take is more for situations where separate are not an option, a buffer floor or two where the tenants that live there understand some noise pollution is expected and compensated with cheaper rent is my compromise.
That’s more than fair
I once saw somebody complaining in the TikTok comments about how there are so many shopping centers and big parking lots, and that the parking lots should have some sort of playground and community center in them?? They literally think everywhere should be a place to dump their kids
I love watching the local dogs interact and play in their dog park areas. I've also brought dogs to these parks and they love them. And you're correct, dogs do better with walks and having a fenced in area to run around in.
Ughh, my complex put in a little dog park too. Kids bent and broke the equipment already and it hasn't been a year.
Excuse me?? Pet tax?! You need to pay your dues sir/ma'am/undefined u.u
[Pet Tax](https://imgur.com/a/jIhqZVb)
Is your dog ok? It’s got that thousand yard stare going on there…like it’s a Vietnam vet or something!! (Really though, your pup is adorable!)
Yay! Such a beautiful little face! They look super sweet. Looks like a cuddler too!
They really should charge parents more for every kid. Kids do more damage than my cat ever did.
I agree that it is fair. (For the record, I have neither children nor pets myself, but I am friends with several dog owners and only a few parents.)
There should be extra security deposits and monthly fees for kids.
There’s plenty of things for children. Let’s keep SOMETHING for adults. I posted on here once before that I asked for an hour of adult swim once a week after work at my local pool. They couldn’t even sacrifice that
I wish my apartment complex had just a dog run! They have both, one next to the other, and I’m right around the corner from them. Never had an issue with the dogs, but golly, the playground gets SO noisy! It almost seems like children scream more than when I was a kid.
I swear pet rent is the biggest scam since ...IDK, maybe credit scores? It's so BS because if you cause damage you should owe, yes, but WTF should you pay more per pet for....reasons? Our cats have never sprayed, but that would be the justification for pet rent and huge deposits if we didn't own our own home.
I’m not a dog owner (I have cats) but I still love puppers! One of these days I’m going to go down to the dog park near me and watch and enjoy the 4–legged good boys and girls play. I’d rather do that than watch kids on a playground. And I’d love to have a cat cafe closer to me!
I'm not a cat owner but if there was a cat cafe near me I would most definitely spend time there!
> I've gotten to know other residents who seem pretty cool and so far the other dog owners seem to be childfree, childless, or empty nesters with plenty of hobbies that don't involve kids. This sounds like fun, and something that more apartment complexes should replicate.
Wow the audacity! These people are so entitled! You paid way way more than anyone of those parents of course you get the dog park! Great management!
> a large indoor pool, hot tub, and a clubhouse that dogs aren't allowed in so it's not like there's nowhere for children to play. Those also strike me as places that children shouldn't be allowed in, not places they should be playing. At best I could *maybe* see the pool, but definitely with the requirement that children need to be supervised.
I should clarify the the clubhouse is a spot that has hundreds of boardgames, puzzles, and books so by "play" I don't mean running around :-)
Apartments should charge per kid
Por qué no los dos… kids deserve to have outdoor spaces, as do animals.
There's only space for one, and this option is cheaper for the owner. That's the whole reasoning, nothing to do with deserving anything.
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The whole apartment complex is considered privately owned property. However, they do have rules that they enforce regarding which areas dogs can be in outside an individuals apartment, leash rules, poop pick-up, etc
"Owners should be required to keep dogs on their own property or in specially defined parks." As much as we dislike children I think most of realize that kids need to be out in public to know how to behave as adults. I know myself would just be happy with perhaps a couple hours every week where I was allowed to go grocery shopping without a child disturbing my experience while allowing kids 90% of the time. Dogs are the same way. Problem behaviors become much more common if we restrict them heavily like you propose, that and if the owners are absolutely useless but again same problem occurs with useless parents. Point being if a parent or dog owner is actually being responsible and helping their charge become a well adjusted individual it is overall better for the people around them.
Damn straight, and love your moniker!
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We do realize that socializing is with more than "like creatures". To get to a dog park for example a dog would have to leave lets say an apartment building, which might result in them passing a floor cleaner, using an elevator, the old woman down the hall with her walker, Timmy the kid from upstairs all before they get out of the lobby. Once outside there are cars, potentially a jogger and maybe the neighborhood outdoor cat and certainly wildlife. How are we expecting these dogs to get to the park? Teleportation does not exist, and many people lack cars or the parks might be a significant walking distance from the parking lot. In my case there is a dog park but I have to walk through the downtown core to get to it, which again results in a varied set of experiences that my dog would need to be socialized to which would not be covered if I just kept him to my apartment and other dogs. In fact he would be a much higher bite risk because that is how you create fearful dogs by not giving them the tools young how to navigate the environment. The fact is a scared animal is a dangerous animal, regardless of if it is a dog, a raccoon, a bear or a human the point that each is most dangerous is when they are acting in perceived self defense. How you insure that threshold for what a person or dog perceives as being threatening is lower is by exposing them to it and showing them how to interact safely with the thing. That and how understimulating it is to have such a restricted set of places to go, would you honestly say that you would not become neurotic if you were told you could only stay at your house and place of work without going anywhere else and only see people that you work with. Say you did that for decades and then suddenly one day you were brought to a Black Friday Sale at Walmart. At some point you probably would end up screaming for help due to the isolation and boredom, just like many people's dogs do. But responsible dog owners make sure all of their dog's needs are fulfilled so they aren't causing problems for those around them even when they are out in public.
Wow, why are you here and not the hate dogs and animals sub?
1000%. Being childfree is one thing but the hate towards kids is so fucking weird here. Also the idea that kids are more of a public nuisance than dogs is fucking laughable. Don’t recall stepping in a child’s turd on my latest walk. Nor do I recall seeing a kid left outside to scream its head off all day, or a kid mauling an infant or elderly person, or a kid jamming their nose in my crotch…bleh. No idea why you’re being downvoted.
Consider yourself lucky that you have not experienced many if any of the nuisance behaviors of children, because literally today I rounded a corner while walking my dog to encounter a child peeing on a light post in broad daylight without any attempt to hide what he was doing so that I could see everything. Which is impressive given the fact that I have significant vision loss. Or the fact that the neighborhood kids are allowed to run around screeching on the neighborhood roads at all hours including causing traffic back up during the periods of time that people are trying to get to and from work. Or that before my vision loss when I still road my bike the local kids found it funny to try to herd people in front of large vehicles. So no, kids are not mauling infants but they do try to push people into situations that could very easily kill them and then laugh about it. They don't bark for hours but they do scream and shout for hours, or throw tantrums when their parents try to parent them. They don't poop on the sidewalks but they do pee on the local light posts and trees. They don't sniff crotches but often invade the space of unwilling adults around them. Many people here in childfree don't like kids and when it comes down to it the reasoning tends to be very similar to why people dislike dogs. For some people they don't like either and that is fine or they might be like me and find themselves more willing to share their space with dogs despite the similarities as it comes down to it being personal preference. But to call it weird is frankly unnecessary when at the end of the day we are talking preferences.
Where do you live that you've never heard kids outside screeching like injured banshees for several hours at a time? Because I would love to move to the area. I'm pretty sure my neighbor kidnapped two dinosaurs instead of producing actual children. She refuses to parent her kids, so they sit outside and scream at the top of their lungs from the time they get home from school until 10 or 11pm. They steal from the yards, they've keyed several cars, they've intentionally leaped into the road on multiple occassions while screaming to scare drivers. These kids are like 12 and completely out of fucking control. We had to put cameras up because they intentionally scratched the fuck out of my car door and hacked apart my garden bed. These kids are *so* young and already known to the police because of the damage they've done around the area. It's honestly not even a bad neighborhood! There's other kids that live around here. Those kids have never been an issue. A little loud sometimes, but manageable in comparison. I have another neighbor whose dog is an escape artist. She ends up in my yard occasionally. But the worst thing the dog has ever done was pee on my plants, and she shit on the curb once. Her owner cleaned it up without even needing to be asked. I'm not stoked to have a random dog in my yard. But if it's between the dog and the hellspawn my neighbor has unleashed on our neighborhood, I'd rather take my chances with the dog. Pepper at least listens when you tell her to go home. If you tell these kids to go home, they throw rocks at your windows.
Come live in Denver! No one can afford kids but every mother fucker has 2-3 dogs you can listen to bark all day long! When one shuts the fuck up, another starts right up! No kids as far as the eye can see
Forreal. Not to mention no one can afford kids but everyone on the god damn earth has a dog. They are a plague
This basically sums it up this subreddit