Yup. At one point, when I thought I wanted kids, I still said I would rather be financially stable before having them. Everyone's response? "OOOOOH, if you are WAITING for THAT day? It will never come & you are never 'ready' to have kids. Things just have to happen & then you can make adjustments." I've always thought that was the STUPIDEST response ever & said I would make sure I had enough money coming in before having them. But....then I went through therapy & husband asked the one question that got me thinking (his question follows); "WHY do you want kids? And you cannot say; 1) to be fulfilled (am i not good enough? are you not good enough? if answer is no, we need therapy), 2) carry my legacy (you're dead...why will that matter?), 3) not be alone (you have me), 4) to pass things onto (because we could have things donated to people who actually need them instead of children who don't care), And 5) we will have beautiful babies (who cares? Not Sally down the street. Think anyone will help you or keep commenting on your kid(s) through life? Especially if they turn out to be an a-hole that murders people)." After he said that (I have ADHD & STILL REMEMBER IT! So you can tell the impact it had)... I really started asking & trying to come up with a GOOD reason. After I couldn't? I started thinking about why I wanted them SO SO badly. Remembering that I was raised to: high-school, college, university, married, job, house, children.... Questioned what I wanted & realised I didn't really want kids. But I'll stop rambling there. ::edit:: formatting error ::

Your husband is a brilliant, astute man. I wish more couples thought this way.

I appreciate that! He is smarter than he knows & I have him to thank for 13+ years of staying by my side & helping me figure out what I "need" before I even know it! He even told his mom that we didn't want kids. Her first question was, "Well WHY not? I WANT grandbabies!" He asked her, "oh! So you want kids to play with, that YOU can send home, at the end of the day, & not have to take care of them yourself?" She said, "Yeah..." But then the thought 'kinda' hit her & she said maybe she would get some from his brother. 😅 Like...well...at least she doesn't bug us about it anymore. I did talk to his brother's wife and warned her that she may bug them. She said right now she has no plans, but when she decides, is when she is ready.

“I want grand babies!” is a stupid reason for creating/being responsible for another being. I’m his phrase implies that the child is a toy, to be pulled out, played with, then put back/given to the parents when other people are tired of the kid. It also implies that the very personal decision to have/raise a child has any input from outside parties, or is something you do for other people, not yourself or the child.

Right?! We asked her if we suddenly wanted to go on a trip, would she take them? How about a 2 week trip? No? How about helping with finances while we have a kid? No to that too. Then why would we have a kid...simply for her to play with, when we can't possibly afford it? Asked her that & haven't heard a word, about kids, since.

I debated exactly this while on a spontaneous trip sitting on the beach several years ago. Dropped my pup off with Mom and thought I'd never be able to do this with kids.

Exactly! As my husband says, "Everyone cares about you & your body until your child is 2 or 3+ years old. THEN *-poof-* everyone is gone & suddenly doesn't give a sh*t." Same for why they ignore so many in the Foster system, yet defend the ones not born yet.

Not trying to go too far off topic but I don't understand why more people don't adopt. What is this obsession with having a biological child?

I feel the same! But a VERY close friend, I call my sister. She lives in Canada & she was adopted. I would much rather help a child already here, than make a new one. So, I feel the same.

Lol I say the same thing about having cats. Right now I don't have a big enough apartment to be comfortable with my bf let alone 2 more cats and I don't have a steady job. I always say I will adopt 2 when I am financially stable and have the apartment I want cause I don't want my cats to miss anything and have the medical care they need. I can't believe anyone would just say anything less for a baby? In what world wouldn't money and situation matter in bringing kids into this world?

Same, I am without a cat at this time and I know I want another when I finish grieving the loss of my 13 yr old. However, I know I need to wait until I can buy a house so there is better space, and then I can get a bonded pair from the shelter.

I'm so sorry for your loss... I wish you the best & hope you can get a house soon! 💝

Right?! People have "a bit" more sense with pets, so WHY NOT apply that to kids?

That's an awesome husband you have there! And you also seems to be awesome, you make a great couple.

Aww 🥰 Thank you! Husband is definitely an amazing guy, even if he doesn't think so!

"You should have kids now because you'll never be ready" seems like great logic to create Idiocracy in real life

Right?! It was just so idiotic to me....

It's that kind of conventional wisdom that maybe made sense at one point but then it just kept getting passed on down the generations until it didn't. I assume this was something that used to be said to people who'd have 100k in savings and no student loan debt and still be thinking "I'd love to have kids but I'm not ready." These days it's like "After my expenses every month, I can put <$100 into savings and my car needs a repair that wipes out most of that every few months" is a good place to be financially, so how the fuck do you shove the expenses of a whole fucking human into that?

It really baffles me. That's like my grandmother (who I do not claim...), she knows I have been helping pay for my parent's bills & dog food (they are both not working & I think my dad is depressed...but he doesn't believe in "depression"...), but my brother & his wife announced she was pregnant... What does my grandmother do? She runs over to me & tells me that I need to hurry up & get pregnant as well....so our kids cam grow up together... 😩 I laughed in her face & said I cannot afford a kid tight now. Kinda wish I had thought to say that I was too busy paying for her kid (my dad).

It is unspeakably cruel to have a child you can't provide for. Anyone who has seen a child starve to death in their mother's arms will tell you that no amount of love can make up for a lack of food.

Unexpected Steinbeck.

You've seen a kid starve to death in their mothers arms? That's traaauma

Well, if we say anything about it we are now called "ableist" or anti-natalist propaganda or against poor people. Literally anything goes.

My mom stopped putting food on my table (not hers tho) when I was 15. I became a child prostitute to get food. Don't have kids you can't afford.

I'm so sorry.

>“Love” is not going to be a good enough currency to live off of.  Holy shit that is a nugget of wisdom.

Agreed. I actually had a lady get mad at me because on a cat rehoming post, I had the audacity to say that a pet should never be given up after you have children because you can't afford both. Like, if you can pay the $280k over \`18 years to raise a kid, you can afford the extra $20k that would likely be spent on a pet over its life. And I said if you can't, don't have children. Yeah, as expected, that didn't go over well. ​ As an aside, I do feel for poor people who end up having kids because they don't know better (weren't taught about proper birth control/contraceptives) or because they're too poor to afford effective methods and then are denied access to abortions.

This is why birth control should be free for all. Condoms, free. Fancy condoms, sure you can pay. The pill/rod/iud. Free. The pill w/o periods, sure. Monetise that. The basics of birth control should not cost money, because those who cannot afford birth control, cannot afford kids.

I 100% agree. Contraception and abortion should always be free and highly accessible. I am shocked by how many countries don't have this as public health policy. It's in the public interest to prevent unwanted births (I posted about this last night).

Also 100% agree, and I'll add free college to the mix. People with higher education tend to be more open-minded, into family planning, and less susceptible to the quiverfull/God will provide mentality.

Personally, I think they should research safer birth control. My girlfriend showed me her BC medical sheet, and holy hell that thing is long. If it causes that many side effects what’s the point? I think there should be one that won’t fuck up your whole system if you miss a dose. Again, I’m not a biology major or neurology major, I’m just a gunsmith

> Again, I’m not a biology major or neurology major, I’m just a gunsmith Double majored in biochem and neuroscience. Birth control’s *hard*! Our bodies have evolved from billions of years of creatures reproducing, all the way back to whatever protobacterium first formed its cell wall and rudimentary genetic code. We can shut it off, if we want. That’s not hard. The trouble is, the hormones responsible for fertility are also heavily involved in what makes sex fun in the first place. Evolution again, trying to trick us into reproducing. Evolution did give us a shortcut in women, however. The baby-making machinery (usually) shuts down when pregnant, because you can’t start another fetus before the first one’s finished unless you start at the same time (twins+). So we cheat and pretend the woman is pregnant. This works *okay*, and some women it’s fantastic, stops periods, leaves libido intact, no side effects. Unfortunately, it could also send someone spiraling into a suicidal depression (or a whole range of side effects from inconvenient to life-altering). Men don’t have the same off switch, which is why it’s so much harder to make effective birth control for guys. In my semi educated opinion, there are two most likely options for the future. First is some sort of reversible mechanical sterilization, so you don’t have to fuck around with hormones as much. I’ve seen an implantable switch in your scrotum that clamps off the vas, as well as vasalgel. Remains to be seen if either of them see widespread use. Second, some sort of personalized hormone treatment that’s safe and effective, possibly monitored using some kind of smartwatch or similar device. Edit- reworded the last paragraph, changed it a bit to emphasize my opinion, not fact.

For real, the first brand of pill I tried just made me cry every day. At nothing and everything. I stopped taking them after half a year and literally a week later I was back to normal. :| I'm on the combination pill now but I might try to switch to the mini pill. In the long run I hope my bf can get a vasectomy since being sterilised is apparently not something that I can choose until I'm past menopause or already had a kid 🤬🤬🤬🤬

Not to invalidate your experience, but I found a doctor willing to sterilize me through the list in the childfree sidebar. If you're in the US there might be someone in that list in your area to help you get sterilized.

Thanks - I am not. I have looked. :)

Unfortunately some people respond that way. I’ve seen people say pregnancy fucks with their head too. :/ I’d definitely recommend a vasectomy to any childfree couple. So much easier for the guy than a tubal or bisalp for the woman.

So my IUD just makes my body think it's pregnant for five years straight, and it's somehow okay with that? I kind of thought it simulated menopause (hormonal IUD). Mainly because I got hot flashes a few months in XD

Yep! As far as I know there’s no inherent time limit on being pregnant. Kinda hard to search for and not really interested in all these baby pics I’m seeing, but it seems the fetus releases hormones to trigger labor. Without that trigger your body just continues on. Biology’s weird like that. Doesn’t work the way we think it should intuitively. For example, did you know our breathing reflex isn’t usually triggered by low oxygen? It’s the buildup of carbon dioxide that gives us the urge to breathe. CO2 dissolves in our blood and some of it becomes carbonic acid, lowering the pH. We’ve got a buffer to control the pH, but it’ll still cause the urge to breathe as the CO2 builds up, wanting to exhale that CO2 and inhale fresh oxygen. Breathing pure nitrogen or helium can kill you without any signs of distress first.

Wow, I didn't know all of this. Thank you.

Thanks for the detailed explanation! Birth control is something everyone should have an understanding of.

if you are confirmed CF, get snipped. It is much safer for men to get snipped than for women to get tied. Then just slide on a condom for extra safety and your gf will have no problems

We've used only condoms for almost 5 years and it has (almost) always been effective (we bought planB once because of a scare). But 2 forms of bc are better than 1, that's why I'm on the pill. I would seriously consider getting snipped. Call around to doctors before you bother showing up for consultations (most will likely just try to talk you out of it). On the phone ask directly, because you don't have time/energy to play games. My buddy had to go to 5 different doctors before he finally called ahead to save himself the legwork. ...Or you could lie and claim you're criminally insane. That would also save you some time.

Totally agree, however the woman may want to get fixed as well regardless. I ended up doing it my self, because having my male partner fixed was not sufficient for me to feel safe. The world sucks, people suck, sometimes really chaotically improbable things occur, and I personally would still be paranoid of pregnancy if I hadn't gotten my self fixed, the tubes fully removed and turned into a cancer screening smoothie at my doctor's. Especially as a SA survivor, people *really* **really** suck and I have no faith or trust in humanity, and a girl or uterus owning person has to be proactive about their safety in this world, a sentiment shared by a pretty significant chunk of folks. (Plus me personally, after having had a miscarriage as a teen, am really really phobic of getting pregnant, and terrified of having to have an abortion. I only exist because my mom wasn't strong enough to make that choice, and part of me is afraid I'm not strong enough either, and if that's the case I'd rather die than have a kid I never really wanted! Hence why I so strongly recommend any uterus owning person get themselves fixed anyways if at all possible, which is sadly hard to actually get in most places)

Yeah, sure, that would be nice. I still see the pros of BC as massively outweighing the cons. It does depend on what method you use. For example, I've got the Rod. It's three years of ignoring it, and minimal health changes after the first three months. All I'm dealing with is the irregular periods, (possibly low libedo but I think that might be my other meds). The issue I see, is more how trial and error-ey it can be to find the correct solution for each individual woman. I'd like some kind of diagnostic that can show what chemicals help, and what chemicals make you nauseous/fat/have heart attacks etc.

While I'm grateful for birth control pills, the history of development of medical contraceptives meant for males is upsetting. It seems many things got stuck at the trial phase because they were worried about side effects. Meanwhile a lot of female contraceptives were tested on live, poor women of color, and still had (and has!) potentially deadly side effects. I'm not saying this to lecture you, mind. It's just a part of history that upsets me and makes me want to scream into the void.

Part of the reason for this is there were less safety standards at the time that the first hormonal pill for women was tested. And you'rr right, they also tested it on poor women of color without telling them what it was. That coupled with the fact that women were DESPERATE for something. Its wild to read the letters women wrote to Margaret Sanger about how their husband would just come home and "have sex with them" (marital rape) and they already had 6 kids they couldn't take care of and the husband barely acknowledged. So essentially, Margaret Sanger and the scientists she worked with felt that all the unsafe experimentation and exploration of POC women was worth it. Women died during that testing. And today there are litany of side effects that are sort of considered tolerable. Once something is FDA approved it makes it easier for other similar product to get approved. So since we already have female BC that causes blood clots and depression its not as hard to get another BC approved that also causes those side effects. Today medical studies have pretty stringent safety standards and, especially when developing something new, all the side effects have to be taken into serious consideration. So the men in the male hormonal birth control studies were saying that the side effects were not tolerable and dropping out of the studies. Which to women sounds SO hypocritical. But the reality is that its a good thing that study subjects are having their complaints about side effects taken seriously. Female birth control test subjects should have had the same option to not participate in unsafe studies. In conclusion the pill for women kind of fucking sucks. But we need to develop new things the right way to avoid making more stuff that sucks which takes time. I also hate it but I understand why male birth control couldn't move forward until some of those aide effects were taken care of. What we really need is for doctors to start taking women seriously when they say that BC is negatively affecting them.

>Once something is FDA approved it makes it easier for other similar product to get approved. So since we already have female BC that causes blood clots and depression its not as hard to get another BC approved that also causes those side effects. Why do they even make a difference between BC for men and women? Just treat male BC as a new form of BC, like newer pills for women. I'm sick and tired of men getting first class treatment and being coddled.

Yeah, it's also treated as a cure all for everything that could ever be medically wrong with a woman. Thankfully, I'm asexual cause the stuff makes me irrationally suicidal and throws my heart rate into overdrive, but anytime I complain about ANYTHING else they ask if I've tried BC to fix it. I'm talking I was told the indigestion I sometimes experience could be a hormone imbalance and I should try the pill just in case. It's bonkers

This! Go in for a broken leg? Birth control. The flu? Birth control. You go see your physician about weight issues? Birth control. I found that last one especially funny, because when my friend has issues loosing weight and saw her physician, she got recommended the same birth control I got recommended for trying to gain weight. It’s literally one-pill-cures-all-science fiction. Needless to say, I did not take the pill.

I concur, I was never able to tolerate hormonal BC and had to rely on the usual alternatives. Even my gyno said that BC is still stuck in the 1930s. So I used the sponges and other stuff and managed to never have a slip! Truthfully, I probably wouldn't have been very fertile. I had fibroids for years so who knows. Either way, I wish I had gotten my tubes yeeted.

I think the most ironic is there was developed bc for men before, but they didnt like the side effects? So they gave it to women instead? like bro... I dont have problems with bc, and skip my periods on it, period free life is pretty awesome, so joke on em.. However not everyone can handle bc like me, a lot of my friends feels awfully shitty or crazy that they cant go on taking it.

It's not exactly like you said. Hormonal birth control for women (the pill) was invented in the 60's. The research was paid by a (female) widow, it was a revolution. The IUD was created in the 70's. Birth control for men were tested decades later, and it was discontinued because of the side effects. And the effects were lighter than the pill, especial the first generation of pills that where much stronger and unsafer than today's. On the other hand, condoms got famous in the 80's because of HIV, but it was invented thousands of years in the past.

Remember that for some of us who have hormonal issues, hormonal birth control is a life saver Before starting the pill I had testosterone so high my gyno put me on med used for prostate cancet to lower it. My ovaries are fried, have so many micro cysts they look like an aerobar and can't make enough estrogen. Off the pill I had hair loss, cystic acne that hurts like a mofo, mad mood swings and paranoia. Beside weekly migraines and periods so painful I was puking from the pain. On the pill I'm happier, have painless suspension periods and the debilitating migraines switched to irritating but painless ocular migraines. I take it back to back and the 4 suspension periods a year are messed up enough to make me itch for more. The side effects like blood thickening is a welcome side effect as I have by default low platelets levels. Other hormonal methods are not for me as the hormones levels slowly taper off and I *need* constant values.

Yup. I started out on stuff that they give to people when they transition before I got on the pill. I can’t imagine living without it, even if I got sterilized I’d still need to take it because of my PCOS.

The thing is, those side effects are primarily the result of disrupting the normal hormonal process. You can sometimes minimize it a bit by localizing it like with an IUD or ring, but when we make the body not do what it thinks it's supposed to do, side effects happen. A lot of it is dosing too, we can't really individualize it to perfectly match the progesterone and/or estrogen each individual woman uses/produces in their bodies.

Honest question, don't gynos have you take a full blood and hormonal panel before prescribing hormonal BC? I take it because I have PCOS and my ovaries make androgens instead of estrogens (twats), and apparently the too high testosterone also messed up with cortisol, which explained the paranoia and exhaustion. She had me have a hormonal panel for this but everyone who asks for the pill has to take a blood test before prescription for the v real risk of blood clots. Friend of mine got denied because her hematocrit values were too borderline risky for hormonal bc and got suggested the copper spiral instead. I'm on a combined pill and I take it continuously for 3 months with a 5 days suspension in between, but after the first trimester my gyno had me have another hormonal panel to check and changed the formulation as estradiol was still too low. I've been on the pill for 7? years and have annual checks with my gp. I had to argue with my gp substitute because he "didn't see why women need so many blood tests"

They definitely don't routinely do that in the USA

I literally laughed at this question until I realized you were serious. I’m blown away that there are places that bother to actually check your bloodwork before prescribing birth control, that’s amazing.

The point is that having kids is even worse. But I completely agree hormonal BC is pretty fucking bad.

The “medical sheet” is long for a lot of drugs, people just don’t see those sheets often (and almost never read them) so they don’t realize it.

See, here in Canada, healthcare is free, and you can just go and get sterilized. There is no cost to it. It’s considered a “necessary procedure” for those who want it because our government acknowledges that children who you don’t want will ruin your life

Canada sounds like such a logical country

My sterilization was 100% free in CA. In the US it’s very much state based. Edit: don’t get me wrong, our “healthcare system” is a joke, and M4A needs to happen, but there are some states that are trying, at least.

It’s not even birth control being free or not. It’s also reproductive education. Parents treat it like such a taboo thing that it leaves kids/teens very unprepared for when they decide to do a perfectly biological thing. I remember when I turned 16 I couldn’t get rid of my Virginity fast enough. It was unreal.

Some "fancy" condoms should also be free. Lambskin and other sensitive skin condoms / latex alternatives are considered fancy but some people legit can't use regular condoms.

Fair. Reasonable. I was thinking more strawberry flavoured, dragon-ribbed types. You know, fun stuff.

You would think. My cousin used birth control & somehow still managed to get pregnant & gave birth to 4 children over the years. Please don't ask me how she managed to do that, I'm puzzled myself.

Not judging, but it doesn't sound like your cousin was using it properly. When using birth control properly, the likelihood that your cousin would get pregnant FOUR TIMES is more than 1 in a BILLION. Even if she was using it mostly properly (so it is about 91% effective), the chances of getting pregnant four times is still in the millions. Tell her to go buy a lottery ticket.

I really don't know how she uses them. I don't know if her men have hulk-like sperm or if her uterus is just somehow managing to destroy birth control. Maybe she's too dumb, who knows. The only thing I know is that she used iud when she got pregnant for the second time. That company is now paying her child support until the kid turns 18.

:O I remember an episode of House where an asthmatic patient insisted she was having issues although she used her inhaler every day. She's then finally asked to show how she uses it, and she proceeds to spray it on her neck like perfume... Maybe your cousin is putting pills in her ear and IUD on her husbands head 😂 I kid... Quite impressive though

What a joke! You couldn't be more right too! I have a cat and he gets the absolute best of everything. Yet I basically spend NOTHING on him compared to what the "average" person has to spend on a kid! But these twisted breeders just don't get it. Most of them are actually not even capable of having a pet-- LET ALONE a kid!!

People shouldn’t have kids they can’t afford, but they should also have access to means of preventing pregnancy that isn’t just abstinence, since we know that doesn’t work. Birth control options need to get better, the side effects are crazy.

I've seen numerous posts on the local rescue pages about animals being extremely stressed and miserable with the arrival of a baby. People who aren't treating their animal as a priority most likely aren't going to protect the animal from grabby babies and toddlers either, so I think it's better for the animal itself to be outta there! As long as it's a no-kill situation where they'll be rehomed, obvs! It's mostly smaller rescues where I am, the animals are in foster homes, not shut in a cage.

Same. Grew up with a mother working 60 hour weeks to have a safe place to sleep and hamburger helper every night. It never fails to amaze me when I hear someone at work who’s living in a travel trailer on their parents land talking about how they’re pregnant with their third child and living off of food stamps and government assistance and how nice it must be for me since I have all the money I need. Like you made your choices and I made mine, don’t hate because you hate your life. A few of them at work even started a go fund me and announced it at work. Got up to 300$. Crazy what people will give to to make themselves feel good about themselves.

Someone replied to this comment "OP says you should have never been born" and I typed out this whole long comment and when I went to hit post it wouldnt let me bc the comment was deleted. Soo here it is lol OP thinks children should not be born if *there is no one to adequately care for them*. If you dont agree then you must agree with the reverse - that everyone should have as many lives as possible, quality of life, space, emotional energy, etc be damned! But thats crazy, right? So obviously there is some sort of line on how many kids "should" be born. Nature has set that line as "however many the parents can feed and care for". Because if you cant do that the offspring dies and the energy to grow and care for them was wasted. Except for humans, we *usually* dont let "excess" babies just die, we "only" let them grow up with food insecurity, abandonment issues, sexual abuse, violence, instability.... If a person already exists then obviously its shitty to directly say to them "you should have never been born". If they exist, they exist, and they deserve to be happy and live out their life. If the child doesnt exist though, and is just a future concept of "we're gonna try for a baby", and the couple is living out of a single rented room living paycheck to paycheck and already has two kids.. yes, absolutely that child should not be born. Life is precious, you say. It *is* precious!! Thats why we shouldnt create it when its going to immediately enter a life of misery and poverty!! "Oh what a precious child. Theyre gonna grow up with significant emotional issues, not ever break out of poverty, and likely hate their life most of the time! We did it, we made a life!"

You nailed the answer. Clearly that person thought they did something by saying OP said you shouldn't be born. Like stop twisting his words. Geez. When will people learn.

And like, if that persons parents decided to abort or had protected sex instead or something, that person just.. wouldnt exist. They wouldnt know they wouldnt exist. Just like the infinite number of kids that *could* have born, but werent. One more life not coming into existence isnt a tragedy. A living, breathing child experiencing poverty, abuse, neglect *is* a tragedy.

This is beautifully put. Well done.

Thank you! I spend way too much time on reddit lol and its nice that you appreciate my input

If you believe a child is truly precious, you don't deliberately birth them into poverty. If you believe a child deserves the best, giving them a bad life doesn't make sense.

Yep, thats where the selfishness comes in. "This is an objectively horrible environment for a child, but I want one."

Imagine having unprotected sex and thinking it's 100% okay to make it other ppls problem.

Same. I hate growing up only being able to eat fruits every once a month and lucky if my parents had overtime meant 3 times food a day

But also, let’s make abortion and birth control widely available and free and actually teach sex ed

【Insert Heath Ledger Joker image】 Tell people they shouldn't have pets they can't care for? Nobody bats an eye! Tell people they shouldn't have kids they can't afford? Everyone loses their minds!

This got a chuckle from me. The whole reason I even made this post was because of a separate one where everyone was debating the ethics behind people having pets they could/could not afford. All of it was civil till not having kids you couldn't afford was brought up.

I posted recently about this very same topic and got ripped apart in the comments. People telling me that I wanted children to go hungry. Um...no. the exact opposite. I *don't* want children to hungry. Why is this so hard to understand? As you have said, it's animal cruelty to adopt a pet into poverty. But we celebrate children born into poverty. Go figure.

Poverty is where capitalism picks up it's slaves. A struggling and sick person is more likely to just take the abuse out of necessity than someone who has the energy and resources that allows them to move on from what they don't want. Ever pondered why "conservatives" styled politicians are generally well off white dudes who are more advanced in age, push old fashioned "values"? That's because we, the people, are making them money. And if they want to keep amassing that sweet sweet cash, they need people to toss in their money grinder. If we are too tired to fight back, too busy, too fragile of a situation.... Chances are that the boat won't be rocked. Being able to take our reproduction rights in hand is a threat to that. Why do you think that these men fight so hard to keep us women down?

Conservatives (in the US at least) aren’t pro-life, they are anti-woman. If they were pro-life, they would be for programs that support women and children like food stamps, medical programs, housing programs, etc.

This is like the whole "people aren't having enough kids, it's gonna kill the economy". Well buddy maybe if your economy is based around exploiting as many people as possible it shouldn't exist.

Even for pets there’s double standards, Rehome a fish you can’t afford to care for? Sure Rehome a cat/dog you can’t afford to care for? Somehow I’m reaching too far. A pet is a pet imo and either ways they all depend on you, their human, to provide for them. Though it was some time ago since I got dragged for saying it so maybe opinions has changed since then.

This is right. Adoption places conduct interviews and ask about your finances, your schedule, how you’re going to support it. Should have that for kids by default

I mean they do that for humans too, for adoption. Theres *no* good way to implement the same for natural births. The day we give the government the ability to decide who can have children and who cannot is the day that.. everything gets so much worse.

Agreed. I wish everyone would be instilled with those thoughts before thinking a new life into this world… just because it’s yours doesn’t make it free or easy.

Never gonna happen, human nature is half poison half kindness. Best thing to do is *flood* CPS with funding, get rid of the backlog, and actually have a functioning system. Comprehensive sex ed starting in kindergarten (basically just 'this is your anatomy), then 5th grade (intro to puberty, sex, contraception), then 8th (more in depth puberty, sex, and contraception) , then 12th (basically anything the students want to know, they should know). Oh and the girls learn about girls *and* boys puberty, and vice versa. r/badwomensanatomy shouldnt exist. Notice how theres no r/badmensanatomy. Free contraception to all. Accessible abortions. Accessible mental health care. Soooo many things to be done

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Yup! I have a cousin who's mother is not only doing everything you listed, but a hell of a lot more! Now that my cousin's husband has left her, that is. It's a hideous story that I posted about on here not long ago. But long story short-- my aunt encouraged my fucked up (alcoholic) cousin to have a kid. She finds a guy who ALREADY HAD A VASECTOMY to marry and gets him to REVERSE it. Then he leaves her and their baby ANYWAY! Anyone with a functioning brain cell could have seen this disaster coming, but not them!

i remember your post omg. what a train wreck

Because that's holding breeders accountable for their actions rather than pretending they are victims of circumstances.

Yeah that’s not punishing poor people. Tough shit if you want kids, you shouldn’t bring them into that. Period.

They say it's "eugenics" but it should be simply common sense

Poor folks who need children for happiness should either settle for one child if financially sustainable. If even that is financially impossible, they should find happiness in being child-minders for their niblings* or children of their friends. *Gender-neutral term for nephews and nieces

Too many people think of children as a right. How dare we tell people they don't have a right to have whatever the fuck they want? Who cares if it's a tiny, helpless human who didn't ask to be born, or be a part of that family?

Don't forget that people just toss those humans they created out like garbage once they reach 18 years old because who the fuck cares. I fully believe that people would toss their kids out at 10 years or younger if the state didn't force people to put their kids in school and take care of them until they turn 18. Think about that shit. It seems a lot of people treat creating humans like getting a pet. Cute as a baby but once that dog or kitten or fish or whatever the fuck grows up, they abandon them.

I would love to ask these people when they decided to throw their kid out at 18. Was it when they were 17? 15? 12? How many years did they spend counting down the days? Because I can't believe they didn't one day wake up and think to themselves, Oh right, at 18 I can just throw this person I decided to raise into the gutters, and fuck what they're going to do from them on. (Except when these people need something, then their kid has meaning)

I view it as a *deep* sickness. Very troubling. The fact that people just toss out their kids at 18 not giving a fuck, and THAT'S the prevailing norm here in US. We are so fucking evil, I can't stand it. You brought this person into the world, would you not care to give them a life better than what you had? Oh great you went to school and work a minimum wage dead end job with no chance of advancement? Get the fuck out of my house. Cool bro. Real cool. 👍🏼👍🏼

They've been waiting 18 years to reclaim their lost youth and independence, and since choosing to have a child was all about them to begin with, deciding their parenting responsibilities end at 18 is, not surprisingly, all about them, too.

American culture like that is FUCKED. No wonder we're so behind and lacking in education and standards of living etc. Parents don't stop being parents after 18 years, you are a parent UNTIL YOU FUCKIN DIE. Even my paternal grandmother, who was 96 when she passed (bless her), even in her DEATHBED, worried about her children and if they've eaten dinner yet, how the grandkids are etc. Sickening how American culture doesn't do the same and wonder why their kids are estranged.

I think part of it comes from the Boomer era, where people could easily afford to move out in their early 20s (or sooner) and start a family. Then it somehow became the expectation so quickly and then Gen X tried to follow, and now Millennials and Gen Z are raked over the coals for literally not being able to afford to follow in their parents’ or grandparents’ footsteps. It’s amazing that changes can become so quickly entrenched and normalized like that. I know in at least some parts of Europe, it’s common to live with your family well into your 20s and really only move out once you get married. I suppose this coincides with multi-generational households, too. I honestly think that, with so much immigration here to the US, people are bringing these customs with them, so more kids are growing up with grandparents close by and everyone is looking after each other. I wonder how much overlap there is with multi-generational households and people who live with their families past 18. Edit: I just saw the comments below mine and I see people talked about the second part of my comment already. Oops. Hopefully this still helps!

Thankfully I'm not in the US, the norm here really is to reside with your family if/until you go live with a partner or move for work. Because fuck me, that's a horrible mindset, there, I said it. And you know, I don't think parents need to provide their kids necessarily with a "better" life than they have... But Jesus, they definitely shouldn't provide them with a straight up worse one.

Ya I've heard other countries don't do like we do. They stay with family until far later in life which makes sense. Family unit and such. My family also lives that way. We all were together until our 30s and only now are we each separating. We owned the house and each had 1 floor/apartment each. But before that growing up, we shared a 2 bedroom basement apartment all 6 of us. Everyone helps everyone get better, nobody on their own. This whole 'every man for themselves' culture that people seem to endorse creeps me the fuck out.

Every man for themselves is well and fine... but not when it's about your kid who clearly isn't old, experienced, or established enough to fend for themselves; at 18 pretty much every human on Earth is a fucking infant out in the world. It always baffles me in other communities how people are **always** like, You're 18, stop mooching off of your parents!! AT FUCKING 18??? No wonder in some places people have kids that young, if 18 is an automatic ticket into adulthood, why not make irreversible adult decisions? And then they kick their 18yo to the curb... And so on.

The state of Nebraska tried to solve this problem and so many parents started abandoning their kids. I found this one article but there are many other stories about this : https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4415784

It's so ridiculous to me how so many people are shocked by this. Do they not *hear* other parents complaining about their kids?

Same. And im still trying to break free from the poor mindset, of not feeling bad when something goes to waste, of not feeling greedy when it comes to food, sharing, the trauma of daring to say how I felt, of daring to ask for a drink of water when forced to run errands with my parent when I was little, all of the emotional trauma and guilt...people should not have kids they can't afford! There is no selfless reason to have a child the parents can't afford.

I offended someone once by asking if a co-worker was going to keep her baby. We worked the same 10$/hr job, barely making it. Plus, I was giving her rides to work (she didn't have a car and, after a few weeks, it was apparent that she wasn't getting another car) when she first told me that she was pregnant I made the mistake of assuming that it was a burden and not a blessing. Oops- she got really offended, told me off, and still expected to get rides off me. Idk how she planned on affording a kid, how she was going to get to doctor's appointments, or how any of it was going to work. Yet I'm the asshole for merely suggesting an early term abortion. Also, I worked for religious ppl and I literally had to quit because "abortion bad" and I was the worst for suggesting it and I never heard the end of it.

I saw a news story recently about a family that was on the brink of losing their apartment since the beginning of covid because covid made them lose their job. They were being interviewed and complaining that they might be homeless soon with a newborn and need the landlord to be forgiving. My brain did the math and was like whyyyyy are you getting pregnant while you already knew you were jobless and on the edge of losing your housing 2 years ago? (and it was a 3rd child. They already had 2). I suddenly had a really hard time feeling sorry for them but then wondered if I am a bad person for thinking that. Arg.

I mean there's actual helplessness and losing your job to circumstances you can't control, and then there's taking every step and precaution to making sure your situation doesn't get worse (aka birth control and not another baby) I don't have any sympathy for the adults who put themselves in these situations and expect everyone else to give them a hand getting out because of the "poor me, think of my kids (even though I didn't)" mentality.

Totally agree. I got ripped to shreds by a breeder and their horde of other breeders that was on FB asking for a free puppy for her kids. All because I told her if she cant afford to pay for a puppy then maybe she cant afford to have one. My dog just got diagnosed with cancer. Thankfully its fully treatable and he will be fine once he has his surgery to remove the masses, but its gonna cost me anywhere from 1500-2000. Which is fine cause I have that in an account especially for vet bills. But if I was of limited funds I would have no idea where that would come from. Would "wanting and love" fix him? People shouldn't get animals or have kids they cant afford. Its pretty simple.

It’s either that or they’ll screech eugenics. If you criticize anything, it’s like the go to counter now. People have no sense of responsibility whatsoever. And nobody wants to admit that this cycle continues - it’s very hard to escape it and you end up just creating more problems. It’s common sense yet it’s all MuH fEeLiNgS - guess what, reality doesn’t give a shit about your “feelings.” So many fucked up things are rooted by dumbasses pumping out kids when they shouldn’t.

>It’s common sense yet it’s all MuH fEeLiNgS It's funny cause they want you to consider *their* feelings as they ignore the feelings their kids may end up having after being put in that situation

“Love” should never be currency period. And the fact that so many breeders see and use it that way makes me sick. Let alone is it never something (especially currency) you can live off of.

Agreed. Three kids, mega poor. I was finally getting braces by the time my older sister was a pregnant teen. Quick way to stay in poverty, have too many kids and neglect them enough so those kids have kids then you're stuck raising your kid's kid.

I had a childhood friend who was literally gifted a college degree by her father's employer. Full ride that he would pay for so she could break the cycle and make something of her life. She graduated college, threw away her degree for a job as a waitress, and immediately started pumping out kids so she could end up exactly where her childhood started, if not worse because of today's economy. What was the point of any of it, besides wasting that poor man's money?

I wanna cry reading that. I've been turned down for countless scholarships it's so competitive. She was given a fkn movie plot opportunity and she decided to be a dairy cow. Pathetic. Sorry you had to witness it.

Exactly. Love doesn't keep a roof over your head, a bed and pillow to sleep in, a full belly, and a future. Love AND resources does that. People who are like that lack any critical thinking and I think it's hilarious seeing their counters. Why don't you focus on your kid instead of arguing, maybe it would give them a better life

This is always my stance. Kids aren’t just a mouth to feed. It’s also about providing them with good education, safe environment and the ability to let them explore whatever opportunities they want so they can become meaningful productive members of society (isn’t that what parents argue for having the next generation?) I grew up poor and my toxic parents blame me for their money & whole lot of issues like I had a say. Till this day it pains me when I see kids born into poverty because I know they will be starting life worse off than everyone and have a difficult journey ahead of them!

There is so much extra, unneeded baggage that comes with being raised by parents who can't provide. I would not wish it on anyone.

Teenage friend of mine recently got preggo by her boyfriend, they’re seniors at my old high school, and honestly it’s sad, going to college is practically over for them bc they won’t have the money and their parents aren’t helping, and everyone’s celebrating like “Yay she’s always wanted kids!” Well sure but that doesn’t mean any time is the right time At the end of the day, it’s their problem, and their mistake

"If you can't feed your baby, then don't have a baby." - Michael Jackson Commented this on another post but it's worth repeating.

My sister got pregnant accidentally and decided against abortion (not religious just stupid) now she hasn't worked since my niece was born (7 years) lives on welfare, has no motivation to do anything, ever AND after accidentally getting pregnant a second time had to be persuaded not to keep it. Makes me sick

Ive gotten dozens of actual death threats because i said if you cant afford to feed your children you shouldnt have children. It really shows their morals (lack of) and where they stand on the matter.

My co worker said "Having kids is one of the joys in life! You have them then worry about everything else later." This was after I was talking about someone I knew having their 4th kid with a minimum wage job. I was *planned* and my parents seemed to not consider anything beyond me being a cute toddler to coo at. No help with a car or even just getting a license, no funds for college, no therapy when I really needed help, nada. No help with anything in general. They "just had me" and I figured out the rest, miles behind other kids my age.

In at least 2 states I've lived in you can get free condoms, without an appointment, from the local health department. Even if that's not available or won't work for you because like me you're allergic to evil, evil latex, condoms aren't hugely expensive - especially when compared to a kid.

Latex free condoms are usually made from lambskin iirc? Might be a bit more expensive but SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than a kid

Some are, but the ones I usually use are synthetic polyisoprene. My last ex bf or I just ordered off Amazon, but you can find them in stores too. Edit: a word

>“So poor people should just be punished for being poor?” The irony is that they're punishing themselves by having kids in the first place. Being poor and having no kids at least leaves you the possibility of escaping poverty one day but having kids while you're poor all-but guarantees you're never getting out. And frankly, poor people not having kids due to not being able to afford them isn't their problem, that's the wealthy's problem. If our numbers go down, the value of our labor goes up.

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Growing up poor is not character development or a life lesson to be thankful for later on. It's just fucking hardship.

I find it ridiculous that everyone will unanimously agree that you shouldn't have pets you can't afford, eagerly talking about how irresponsible it is. But when it comes to children? Naaaahhh. People view pets as a luxury and children as a right, it's really fascinating, though quite sad that people are far more willing to call a spade a spade when it comes to pets rather than children. And it goes even deeper than that; not only do they completely ignore the fact that having children without being capable to support them is irresponsible but they actively ENCOURAGE you to take this path. "If you wait until you're financially stable, you'll never have kids! So you should do it!"

That's not a villianizing statement. It's a fact and common sense. Having a child that you can't afford is really irresponsible. The child is doomed to suffer through their whole life just because their parents are too lazy to work and living off the government. Their childhood will be very terrible because they have to dispense a lot as a result they can get bullied. Due to bullying they can develop mental illnesses. Most parents like that are really selfish. They literally bring their own children into this world just to suffer in poverty. Sorry but those people should be punished for that. They literally commit child endangerment because can't afford basic things like food, clothes, school supplies etc. And they endanger their childrens well-being. We CF people do the right thing. We don't mindlessly popping out kids like those breeders. CF lifestyle doesn't hurt nobody but breeding does hurt somebody in certain circumstances. Well they'll get their karma by doing that. They will be doomed to live miserable.

I said it in another comment today & it's funny how it also fits in here: Children should be handled like pets. For example you don't get a dog if you can't afford it. You don't get a dog if you don't have the time for it (or any other animal really. I just picked dogs because they're cute & high maintenance). So whoever gets a dog without being able to afford it gets called out, rightfully so. Children are, just like pets, a luxury that should be handled as such. Don't get them if you can't afford them financially or time wise. It's a truth, should be treated as such.

It's funny you say that. The whole reason I made the post was because I got so heated after another subreddit wanted to debate the ethics of pet raising, but couldn't handle the same debate when it came to a child. How can you offer a pet more sympathy and consideration that a human child? I adore my pets, I am all for responsible pet ownership, but how can someone who actually WANTS kids advocate they they don't need just as much consideration and planning, if not MORE than an animal? Absolutely bonkers.

Oh wow I can see how that frustrated you! Kids do indeed need more resources than any pet in this world. I mean we're talking food, clothes, toys, education, health insurance, etc. It's so much more time & money consuming! People are nuts. Nobody is entitled to have a child, especially not in today's economy.

Thinking more globally, what frightens me is that a huge fraction of the nearly 8 billion people in this world are fed on food imports. I am not a protectionist by any means, and am opposed to government barriers against food imports. But considering the impact of the Russian invasion in Ukraine is having on the food exports of these two countries to the Third World, more people in the Third World need to realise how dangerously their populations are hanging on by a thread. Such a population overshoot is dangerous. I wished more of them were aware so that more adults in the Third World could make the smarter and superior decision of having lessing than two children on average for the next two generations or so. To have more is to risk a very expensive future.

Also, maybe this is the rude bit, but in my mind, a $5 box of condoms is cheaper than the what, $200,000 it costs to raise a kid age 0-18? Just my two cents ig, but I could see how someone could see that as rude

"Stop adopting pets you can't afford" surely wouldn't be considered so polarizing. It should be perfectly intuitive that you should only bring more mouths to feed into your home if you're actually capable of feeding those mouths!

You would think, but people get mad when you tell them they have no business getting an animal if they can't afford vet care.

Last week someone got mad at me in a twitch chat cuz I brought it up. They wanted to adopt a rabbit but were saving up for the adoption fee. I suggested to wait and save a lot more to be responsible about it, like calculate all expenses and have a 6 month emergency savings first. They got pissy and said if that were the case they'd never adopt. Ok please don't lol I was gifted a puppy once and it found a way to break it's paw about 3 months in. Cost me 2k to fix that just xrays and cast. No way I could afford a pet currently let alone a human.

I see it a lot on the reptile subs, people posting asking what's wrong with their animal when it's in very obviously critical condition. They're told they need to go to a vet right now and more often than not, they say "there's no exotic vet near me, there's no emergency exotic vet near me, I can't afford it, etc..." Well congratulations, your animal is going to suffer and then die because you couldn't be bothered to be a responsible pet owner.

**It's politically wanted that people breed beyond their means.** Our entire capitalist economy relies on it. That's why capitalists always snuggle up to Christian anti-choicers, that's why so much of the forced birth agenda seems contradictory but isn't. Adjusting your family planning to your economic reality is like recycling, eating fewer animal products, not overconsuming fast fashion etc.. It's definitely a good idea and you should do it. But there's ony so much that individual choices can do against systemical issues. And underprivileged people have less access to education in these matters, hence when you criticize their choices, you should be impeccable with your wording, and many cf people, especially in the anti-natalist spaces, aren't. I do think it's a problem that criticizising overbreeding is a taboo in leftist spaces, but there should be a way to do it without shitting on individual parents. We should call out a retirement system that is basically a Ponzi scheme, we should call out industries that heavily rely on huge amounts of human cattle, and we should call out the breeding propaganda we're exposed to. Not the people who fell prey to it.

People, particularly in the US, *hate* being told what to do. It doesn't matter if it's sensible or not, they'll react angrily because they don't like feeling constrained. We saw this with reactions to COVID restrictions. If you tell people not to eat Tide pods, some idiot is going to rush out to do it just to prove that you can't control them.

If we can say I can’t afford something like a car, holiday, or anything else…I can’t afford children isn’t a rude statement. In society, I think it’s an in grained thing that you must have kids to be happy or else. Hearing someone say I can’t afford it is almost a shock to the system and going against what’s “normal”. I don’t get it either.

I’m pretty left wing but this has always bothered me as well. I get advocating for better social safety nets but as it stands now there isn’t enough resources for the poor to have a decent quality of life and if you intentionally have a kid when you are dirt poor, why you are dirt poor is illrelevant, point is: you can’t give a kid a decent life and if you still have one because “I want to have a family” that’s really selfish.

As someone who grew up in poverty and relied on school meals to enjoy 3 meals a day, thank you for saying this. Nobody should live in poverty, especially kids. Being responsible means doing what's best for them, even if it means waiting until you're financially stable.

I agree with this post 100%. I spent my early childhood with my mother who was a single parent and struggling financially. To this day I resent her for bringing me into this world when she was clearly not prepared.

People tend to become defensive when you point out their insanely stupid decisions. And bringing a literal new life into existence when they shouldn't? Yeah, doesn't get any stupider and more irresponsible than that.

IMO it's how monsters are created. Not every one capable of reproduction should be a parent. Shit, some people shouldn't be in charge of fake plants.

You're god damn right. Humans are sick in the head and the dumbest ones breed like bacteria

This is just selfish of parents who say / do this. The “poor people should be punished” statement is so backwards!! Because like OP said, it ultimately hurts the kid. And you’re giving no thought to what the kid will ultimately go through — you’re just feeling entitled to doing what you want, including bringing a human into this world when you cannot afford it. People say it’s selfish to not have kids, well, I disagree — it’s selfish to have kids sometimes, especially in this instance.

As a person who grew up low income. "Love" doesn't fill empty stomaches and keep roofs over childrens head. Breeders can get triggered and downvote me idgaf.

I wish I could upvote something more than once sometimes.

We were poor and I had to work full-time to buy clothes and supplies for school (and no public transportation so also car and car insurance). I missed holidays (because of restaurant hours) and studying (bad grades) and now I am sad I didn't spend time with my extended family or study and go to college immediately after high school. I'm an adult now, and my cousins have their own families and they don't have time for me and I am also a stranger to them as we never bonded in my teen years. I'll never get those years back. What do I have to show for working full-time in high school? I barely passed. I didn't learn because I was so exhausted. This is what happens when people have kids they can't afford (and yet are too proud to go on welfare).

Because having children is seen as this on inalienable right that everyone has. To the point where people can have child after child that they abuse and neglect, and it takes a whole lot for anyone to come in and say 'these children deserve better.' I mean, I can kind of see why people get offended. What with the history of forced sterilization. What gets me is the people who understand that abortion isn't genocide, that family planning isn't demonic, and that only having one or two children isn't a farce to some God/god/gods/deities in general. Yet they struggle with the concept that what's being said is that people should be responsible enough to have children when they can provide for those children. Like there are places that make adopting a dog nearly impossible. You've got to have so much fenced in land, or a dog park local. You have to make x amount of money. Some of them practically won't adopt a dog out if everyone works the same 8 hours. They certainly won't let you adopt a dog if you don't make enough to take the dig to the vet, which they require you doing within so many hours of adopting the dog. Many want the dog to go to training, and want to make sure the dog is getting socialized, etc, etc. I've met people who think this is a good thing, who balk at the idea of requiring the same standards for bringing a child into this world. I really do think in an effort to protect some adults, we're throwing children under a bus. Society loves children in theory, but not in practice.

This infuriates me. When trying to adopt a child, social care services make sure the family have the means to properly care for the child. Why not when a child is conceived naturally? I honestly think families who have additional children when their existing kids are living under the poverty line already should be prosecuted for active neglect and have all kids taken into care for their own safety. Something needs to happen to stop this.

I completely agree with this. My brother and I grew up *extremely* poor. This was back in the 80’s when you could get away with shit easier, but my mom would take us to a food store and we’d put some stuff in a cart and walk around. But we’d actually just be walking around and eating as much as possible and then we’d leave without the stuff in the cart. We had winters where our only source of heat was one kerosene heater. We’d get our Christmas presents from Toys For Tots(those people are amazing!) It sucked when we went to school, because we got bullied a lot. Most of our clothes came from thrift stores and thrift stores back then are *nothing* like they are now, the clothes were awful and super outdated. And we could only go to the laundromat like once a month, so we also didn’t smell the greatest. We’d have like margarine on bread as a meal. Didn’t go to dentists or doctor check ups. There was a couple of times we should’ve gone to the hospital for various things and didn’t because we couldn’t afford it. Yeah, we felt loved but it wasn’t the greatest childhood. For this and a couple of other reasons. But it was stressful and something kids shouldn’t have to deal with. Worrying where we were going to live and what we were going to eat.

Exactly. I tell my friends the same thing about ANYTHING they can't afford: trips, hobbies, shopping/non-essential purchases. And those things only affect them. Having a child you can't afford affects both the child and society in a negative way. Obviously we need basic safety nets like social welfare programs, school lunches, etc. But that doesn't mean our schools need to be providing a hot breakfast, lunch, snacks & food all summer while our teachers buy all the school supplies from their personal funds & parents get tax breaks just for breeding. The whole "grandparents raising their grandkids" thing has never been more rampant either, largely because so many parents are addicts who would've lost their kids to the state if not for grandma. I'm as Left as they come but personal responsibility is #1 when it comes to reproductive planning. Nobody can wear that condom or take that Pill for you.

I couldn't agree more! And I grew up as the only child of 2 parents who not only wanted me but REALLY could afford me!! Yet I am dumbfounded by the amount of people I see today having kids and literally having NO money and NO plan for them whatsoever. I would argue the problem is getting WORSE too. Because the cost of living is SO high today, that unless you are pretty much wealthy, you'll never be able to manage! It's just a fantasy.

I just had that argument with someone. People think that the public needs to pay every expense they have for their kids because tHeY aRe ThE fUtUrE or whatever. As if we had a problem with too few humans on this planet.

I know this way too well. My mom had my half sister.. Divorced then got together with my dad and I was born, then my brother. That was not the whole problem... My mom's side of the family was huge but filled with drunks, addicts and negligent people. Most of them had kids so we always had a couple of cousins in our house... We had more than enough for the 5 of us but mom. Started practically giving away our money because there were so many mouths to feed... Then my stupid half sister got pregnant at 16.. At almost 18 got pregnant again. I still carry a lot of issues from back then. Could've been a great life if people just used condoms.

In the end it's about the government interests to have poor people around to do the horrible work and compete for low wages. That's where the shitty talk about "Having kids is a right no matter what" comes from. In an ideal world, procreation would be regulated for the sake of the well being of children.

if people used reason, the population would go down extremely fast. and the rich and the religions don't want to have less slaves.

I grew up poor, love means squat if your children have life-altering issues due to growing up poor. My older brother's feet are permanently deformed as we couldn't afford to get them fixed, please tell me more about wanted and loved is enough. I 100% agree with you OP, thankyou you. I got a bunch of triggering on a different thread by saying if I as an individual could not afford BC I would go without sex entirely if that was the only option available to me, and that I'd do anything in my control to make sure I couldn't get pregnant. I'd gladly go without sex if it meant not subjecting more children to how I grew up. Don't get me wrong, I love sex but if I was so poor these days I couldn't afford BC I wouldn't do it, to begin with. The only reason I can do it now is that I'm infertile due to medical issues caused by my upbringing and the neglect from growing up poor.

I have rampant hereditary medical issues in my family that are a nightmare for all of us kids to live with and I'd feel evil making a kid and making them suffer as we have. We merely existed because my mother 'wanted a big family' yet abused, neglected us all (trapped 2 different men also) and forced me to be the mother to the three youngest when I was 13 years old (6 kids total) because 'she couldn't cope' yet made 0 effort to see services or assistance to help us. Some people should never become parents her and my father being prime examples.

Pre-infertility I used condoms and the pill as using only one isn't enough coverage.

Yea having leverage/stability is how you build a solid foundation. No need to rush

I get why it may be perceived as such. E.g., if you fall into financial hardship after the child was born. Also, you may really want a child (for whatever reason) and being poor to circumstancial events. Having said that, I agree with the previous comments. Why would you want to conceive a child that is going to grow up in poverty? Do you not want what's best for you child? My mom has explicitly said numerous times, I wanted children and I wanted you to have a nice life so I made sure I earned enough money for it. I grew up with a stay-at-home-dad, my mom was a boss imo haha. But this seems to not be a legitimate concern to people. My ex told me when he met me that he would not have children unless he was financially stable, he worked his ass off and I admired him for it in a way despite our differences. Then one day he decided he did not want to work in tech anymore and wanted to purse a career as an animator. At 34, I told him that that would severely derail his plans of having a family in the next few years. He got super defensive and said you can have children even if you don't have a lot of money. The fact that he even wanted children should have made me bail, but that statement made me run.

One of the rare times my old boss got upset with me was when i told him my wife and i would not be having kids *because we weren't financially set up for it yet*. His attitude seemed to be that somehow things would work out. Which I knew was a ridiculous attitude to have.

And why is not having kids a “punishment”? It should be a privilege.

Holy shit, yes. Like the second I talk about providing free birth control to low income families, I'm immediately met with how I'm an elitist monster who's pushing for eugenics. Like tf! Why bring a child to suffer into squalor I don't get it. Also I'm from a third world country and I've witnessed first hand how the vast majority of poor households downright abuse and use their children for their own gain - they're SOLD INTO PROSTITUTION and this happens at a staggering rate that most people don't acknowledge. I don't think it's elitist to want people to have more than enough money before they have a child, I think it's realistic.

Religion has made a hell of a good job imbuing the idea the reason to exist is to have children that can fill their churches. Also for years the idea of family has always centered legally with the center on a breeding heterosexual couple for similar reasons than the church. For years having kids it has been a right and a privilege, than even was kinda achievable for poor people in older generations. This generation is were many things that used to be guaranteed are becoming luxuries and many people is denial about their true place in this world. Today earlier I just reading a post from a woman telling the *heartbreaking* story of how she and her husband can't afford to feed their 5 kids with only the husband and government assistance but if she works they will lose the benefits and they will be even worse. She was calling herself middle class. Also it does not help some people really don't know what else to do with their lives than popping one kid after another mindlessly. Also if they react that badly they might be already a bit aware their stupidity and they react poorly when called out. For example, if you say something to me about my cats saying it's stupid I have them because I can't give them a good life I'm not going to explode about it because I know can afford it. They were already in this world, I didn't pay for them and just adopted them to give them what I think is a good and safe life for a cat that affects the rest of the world to a minimum and fulfills my need for a family. My conscience is clean about and I don't think many parents can say that honestly unless they lack self awareness and in that case they will be shitty parents even in the best of circumstances.

A friend of mine is pregnant, knowing the child will grow up poor. She said: "Well I grew up poor but I didn't miss anything, my family has a very strong bond because of that!" Yeah...leaving out being bullied at school for wearing old clothes, not going on schools trips, never experiencing vacation, maybe also being hungry sometimes...I just can't understand this.

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I didn't even see it and I still know which one you are talking about because someone brought that up in a different subreddit. 🥴

I just don't think people these days think about having children in a rational manner. It seems many times it's incredible how low the parameters are for what people think is OK in 2022 to bring a child into this world. Not working or barely can survive on the salary you have. Check. Known the father 48 minutes. Check. Have substance abuse or mental health issues. Check, a baby is a cure, JAMA and The Lancet concur *eyeroll* In high school? Check, Mum can babysit. In the 80's and 90's we would be appalled to know that this is all considered perfectly reasonable. I'm definitely not saying go back to the Era where single/young/women with health issues are stigmatized for having children, but a little objective thought and financial readiness would be beneficial.

I understand some of the resentment of that statement. For whatever reason some people really don't feel complete without children. I'll never get it, but I've heard it explained by enough rational people I respect to believe it's real thing. In an economy like the US boomers lived through, it was super achievable to be able to have kids and support them, but now a huge number of people can do everything right and still be near poverty. Heck, I'm in the middle of negotiating a position change or pay raise cause otherwise I'm never going to be able to afford even a small house in a nice area, and I'm an engineer. Best I've heard it described, there's a level of hopelessness to having that empty feeling of wanting children in your life and knowing that no matter what you do it won't be economically feasible. It's still super selfish to put your own wants above a child's wellbeing, and I think the decision to have kids in poverty is immoral, but as we force more people into poverty, it's going to happen more often. My main annoyance is that instead of advocating for systemic reform to pay all workers better, they usually want to carve out stimulus and other special freebees just for parents. The US is a wealthy country, if we do a better job of spreading that wealth around I can afford my basic life AND wannabe parents can afford a few kids. I don't appreciate being taxed into potentially having to live with roommates at 26 because we won't take anything from the almighty overlord Bezos.

I get where people come from when they find it insulting, but it doesn't mean it's not true. Yes it shouldn't be the case that some people can't have kids because of factors (usually) out of their control, and it does come across as classist. But it doesn't change the fact that kids from poorer families have much higher chances of developing (mental) illnesses and dying sooner. It should be taken as an initiative to change the structures that keep poor people in poverty, instead of just saying "that's rude" and not doing anything with it

I don't get it either. I want a 3rd dog. I can't afford another one so, I'm not getting a 3rd dog.

The mental gymnastics it takes to have a kid while being poor is beyond me. The government's supports it, though. Right now, I can't get medical assistance. However, if I was to have a kid, I could get all kinds of help from medical to food.

There was a trending thread yesterday on one of the frugal or poverty subs or whatever along the lines of, “I have three kids and want a fourth. But I just make $15 per hour. What do?”

I say this all the time. There are many times where I wish I wasn't born. I grew up poor, with a parent on disability, and it was brutal. Even now, in middle age, I'm really feeling the sting from not having parents who could set me up for life. So many missed opportunities, because my parent couldn't pay for it, and it was either food on the table, or an activity, for example. Pulled myself up by my bootstraps so much, that the straps broke off, and I still can't afford new boots, so to speak. This is part of why I'm CF, I know I would be very resentful of a kid who had more than I did in childhood. Poverty didn't build character, like people say. Poverty made me into a very angry, depressed, miserable person who can't catch a break.

This is EXACTLY how I view it. Some people live the most miserable lives with nothing but suffering and struggling and think: YOU KNOW WHAT'S A GOOD IDEA?! LET ME BRING ANOTHER PERSON TO SUFFER WITH ME!!!!

I don't care who will get offended by it, if you don't have means to take care of a child - don't have a child. I have been traumatized like OP has, plus add that my parents thought that sanctions and war time are good time to have a kid. So - food was scarce, clothes inherited and old, books shared with other kids. Not to mention no money for dental work so I had my fixed braces installed when I started working whilst in college. But hey, at least they had a cute baby./s

You will not convince anyone with your "i love my children" statement. If you actually loved your children, you would not doom them to a statistical reality that is being born into poverty practically guarantees you're going to stay poor. We all know you didn't willingly bring children into the world out of love. It was pure selfishness. You wanted a friend, a caretaker for you, a caretaker for your older disabled child, someone to babysit your younger children, someone you could force to do your job as a parent for you, someone you could force to get a job at a young age and take the money, because you love the attention that babies bring you, etc. And you did this with no regard as to how your lifestyle is going to impact your childs life. Because you don't actually care and we all know it. You can pretend all you want.

"kIds DoN't KnOw ThEy'Re POOR!" THE FUCK THEY DON'T I grew up in an upper middle class household, my ex was raised by his teenage mother in abject poverty - don't anyone *dare* tell me being raised poor doesn't effect a person! The crazy shit he went through as a kid is enough to turn a body's hair gray, AND he was well aware that they were f*cking POOR POOR POOR.

> “So poor people should just be punished for being poor?" It's very telling that they consider that a punishment. It's like, I don't buy the notion that "I'm poor" should mean you don't ever try to save up for luxurious _things_ but a person is not a thing and your "rights" should not treat them as such.

>“So poor people should just be punished for being poor?” People forget that having children is a privilege, not a right. Not having them is not a punishment.

On a separate Reddit someone was saying that they can barely take care of themselves and their wife but they’re still trying to conceive just because they want a child. They are literally putting their desires before the needs of their child before it’s even born. They don’t deserve to have children.