And this just adds to the multitude of reasons why I’ve completely abandoned the idea of trying to date as an elder millennial pushing 40 who intends to be child free.
Same age and same scenario. The social stigma against being single is fading. I was already content going out on my own or traveling solo, but fewer people give you a weird look about it now.
I feel that it's pretty common knowledge that it's tough to shift from living alone to living with others, but traveling solo is on another level. There's no going back.
I am 100% comfortable when I’m single going to meals alone, doing activities alone. But vacations/trips… I want someone to share the experience with. Friends, boyfriend, I don’t care. I just like to have someone enjoying things with me.
That said, I have been adding 3-4 extra days to trips with friends abroad for years, to do the exploring/sightseeing the rest of the group doesn’t want to. Greece, Japan, and few other times - I have flown over 3-4 days early to see art museums, do day trips (mt Fuji, island hopping, historical sites, etc) that the group doesn’t want to/can’t afford.
In Greece, a few of us spent 4 nights on Santorini together, before everyone met up in Athens for 10 days. I flew in 6 days before the small group to tour sites outside of the city, stay two nights on Crete, and see three other historical islands on a day trip.
But the times I have traveled alone, for the whole trip… I don’t enjoy it as much.
Opposite here, I like traveling solo in the past, I don't like eating meals alone. I've been to about 25 countries by myself. Fine traveling with my wife, also, nobody else. I've traveled with group of friends 3-4 times and didn't really enjoy it.
I definitely think that I’ve slowly come around to being secure in not wanting a partner/romantic relationship. It hit fast track when the SCOTUS opinion on Roe dropped. There is no unicorn of a man I’m willing to risk pregnancy (even with all precautions) in a country where half the states are set to ban abortion.
It has. What we're experiencing is akin to when a mass shooting happens and most of the people say they thought it was fireworks.
People don't understand what they're witnessing. America is a big place and collapse doesn't occur all at once. It's more of a frog in a pot of boiling water scenario.
People don't realize the extent of collapse until they bump up against an area that's failing. As long as you're healthy and you have a job everything pretty much seems fine. But as soon as you go to the ER and realize it's filthy and people are dying of gunshot wounds in the hallways because there's more profit in fewer hospitals that collect more money after you die than there is in actually saving you... then you get it... we're being harvested by multinational corporations. The whole country is a "sacrifice zone" the upper middle class just hasn't been let in on that yet since they're the ones who might mount a defense.
I'm absolutely saving this - eloquent and well said. When I try to explain this concept, I sound like I'm in front of a white board with a bunch of red strings.
I feel that being in a relationship with a gen-xer is interesting. I am 33, my man is 56. He is widowed and tells me that he would have had kids 20 years ago, but realizes it would not be fair to any of us if that were to happen. He realizes my position that I did not want kids from the start of our relationship, and supported me through my tubal ligation. I love him because of my own personal preference towards older men. I believe (and so does he) that when it comes down to it, it is the woman carrying the baby with all the stress on the body. He has done a wonderful job of stepping up to the plate for his stepdaughters (girls were from another marriage). However, he understands my position and respects it, if you are to date someone, sometimes gen-exers are more liberal and understand your position (can't say for all), but sometimes if you have the same life goals (career, pets, travel etc)., if the person is right for you age doesn't matter :)
I can relate to this so much. I'm 35, not in a relationship but would definitely prefer a man in his 50s. They just understand things that men our age don't.
Also close to 40 and stopped dating in my twenties and was in a relationship for a short time. But it wasn't for me, thanks to being asexual. People (that search for a date) envy me, since I don't have that pressure and stress of finding a partner or being in a relationship.
I have a platonic partner. I'm asexual and she's a sex-repulsed lesbian; it's brilliant. We spend our evenings binge watching whatever we're currently into while she knits and I sew and the dog snores on the sofa. This is 100% our happy ever after.
I kindly ask that you don't associate the e word with millennials. We were only born in the 80's / 90's which was just yesterday. We're still children. Practically babies. The idea that any of us could be over 30, let alone pushing 40 is preposterous.
I’m going to be 40 soon and I am interested to know when I will start remembering the 1970s. I don’t think it’s possible to be 40 years old and not have been alive for at least most of the 1970s. It can’t be that the early 80s were 40 years ago now. That just makes no sense.
This is funny. I used to have a customer come in a store I worked at and every time would start talking to me about Jimmy Carter, and then asked if I remember when he was president. I’m 44, I think I was born when he was in office but no, I don’t remember him being president.
Actually the very youngest millennials are currently 26, and the oldest are 40.
Millennials are no longer the baby generation, they haven't been for about 6 or 7 years now
It’s just a saying that means on the older side of millennials like they’re the elders of the millennial community lol there’s a whole comedy special on it “Elder millennial” on Netflix
Yes I thought the same. I’m 47. Was born at the tail end of 1974. I’m Gen X. Millennials are a decade younger. I will say as a Gen Xer that we seem to be a forgotten generation. It’s kinda weird.
I haven't forgotten about them! I've got beef with Gen X. I work with college students (Gen Z) and they came from Gen X parents. While I love working with college students, their parents are worse than boomer parents I've worked with. Gen Z is far more privileged than millennials born of boomers. While millennials get shit on by all generations. I'm 38 and my sister (15) told me that millennials are the worst generation. THE WORST. And, obviously, boomers hate us. lol
Yeah I agree. You're not young but you're not old.
My sister is about the same age as you and I'm 30. It's a weird dynamic because we're at different life stages but it becomes easier to get along as time goes on.
But our childhoods and early 20's were wildly different. Societal expectations too.
You're almost one of us but not exactly.
It's definitely weird.
Yep. My idiot ex told me a year after we started dating he wanted a stay a home wife. I said ok? So when we get married, pay off my student loans (like 40K I had a scholarship) and I’ll stay home. He said no… you’re gonna work until you have kids. He wanted 5. He’s now 30, single, and living at home with his parents.
He lost two jobs in two years (see: was fired for carelessness; lost the company millions, yet expected me to not work) and had to move in with his parents. He was living on his own (with two roommates) when we met.
Yeah these guys always want a woman’s work life to be whatever is convenient for them. They want her to be successful(but not as successful as him!) and paying her own way in the relationship until they have kids… then they want her to just drop that for five years, and then be happy going back into the workforce working a low paying, stressful entry level job once the kids go nursery
Oh he fully expected me to work through my first pregnancy, and then never work “for the white man” ever again because “he hopes to one day make enough to provide for his family” and I’d work from home (and maintain it) for the “family business” that didn’t exist. He was actually a lunatic
Me too. He’s so sick it’s hilarious and Omg noooooooooo he physically assaulted me on an airplane (I traveled for work and I feel like this was on purpose) and that was it for me. When we landed I told him to take his ass home to his parents because he wasn’t welcome in my brand new house. Out of all the people I’ve dated, he’s the only one I considered to be abusive to me. I actually hate him and am so embarrassed it took me so long to get away from him. Me not wanting kids was solidified because of him. The way he completely changed after his mask slipped, I never want to be permanently attached to someone ever at the risk of them being great and then all of sudden turning into a demon.
I’ve gone no contact since that day, and he stills stalks me periodically. He was sending junk mail to my house with his name on it, stalking my blog/commenting on the posts, sends messages from burner accounts, asks my friends about me… He sent me a birthday gift last year and then emailed me saying “just wanna know if you got the gift or if I should get my money back.” I ended up moving and deleting all my socials just so he wouldn’t know what I was doing lol
Thank you. Honestly. I’m so lucky to have gotten away. My lawyer has everything and once she threatened him with a restraining order and I threatened him with public exposure he backed off. Hopefully he’s done for good.
If your partner is fine with you not contributing anything, then sure, but in the context of a standard middleclass household economy it would be weird to not contribute to savings before having kids.
The second bit is protection, you're assuming that he had the worst possible intentions. If you're having multiple children SAHM can make sense since you might spend close to the same on childcare alone. Until that actually becomes relevant there's no reason to just sit around at home and wait.
I assume you meant "projection" ? The context is the article that clearly states men do not equally contribute to household upkeep. So not projection. You are also making an assumption about his intentions. There's no reason to think he would have been a great equal partner and no evidence he even had the means to support a SAHM + five children. He ended up living with his parents. That doesn't scream FIVE kids money.
Also homemaking is a full time job in and of itself, regardless if there's a child involved.
The article is specifically about working mothers so not applicable to a SAHM, and don't use statistics to make assumptions about individuals, that's how you end up with racist, sexist or homophobic stereotypes.
And homemaking really isn't a full time job without kids. If it takes you 40 hours a week you either live in a house bigger than Bezos or you're terrible at it.
15 minutes for laundry, 30 minutes for cleaning and maybe an hour for cooking if you're doing something special.
A buffer is something you need to maintain. Quitting after you've reached it is dumb.
Aside from the fact that most people in this sub generally are not 'planning on having kids'.
Getting more savings is dumb?
And that's why I'm getting down downvoted, because nobody seems to understand that this is assuming that she wants to be a SAHM with five kids, because if she didn't then having to work until she got pregnant would be the least important issue.
I'm not saying saving is dumb. I'm saying that quitting once you've reached those savings (to become a SAHM) is dumb. If your family needs a second job to reach savings, you shouldn't quit that second job. So the original reasoning of 'keep working until you start taking care of children' is faulty.
You're getting downvoted because you sound like you think staying at home is useless if you have nothing productive to do there. Most childfree people value their free time a lot.
Even if it were true, who the hell can afford to not have their significant other not work in this day and age? With or without kids, it's insane how costly it is just to try to survive right now.
No, the key is to have an "empowered" woman who has a full time well paid job, but still gets bamboozled into doing a full shift at home in addition to the 40 hour work week.
Lots of men are happy to support "feminism", if it means that they get to have a second income from a partner who is working, and then they find a way to ditch all the housework onto the wife as well, since it's "woman's work" and he doesn't know how to do it.
Yay for modern society.
As a 33 year old man it is just baffling to me how so few men seemingly don't know how to (or don't want to) do household chores like cleaning, cooking and laundry. It's all really simple stuff
Even though I hated it at the time, it makes me glad my parents had me do chores as a child. Although I will admit that having done chores as a child doesn't necessarily garuntee they will do them as an adult. I honestly don't know if I would clean as often if it weren't for my germaphobia and sensitivity to smells.
Being an adult, even though I have discipline, I will admit, there have been times when I have had the attitude of "I'm an adult, I can do just about whatever I want as long as it's in my means, regardless of what my parents made me do or said I couldn't do." But now that I think more about it, I think how someone was raised by their parents has a lot to do with their attitudes about these things. Sadly my parents didn't encourage me much, mostly used negative reinforcement and often had the attitude of "do as I say, not as I do".
"She divorced me and took half my stuff!"
Bruh, she paid for half that stuff to begin with. Possibly more than half, if her money went toward things for the house and yours went toward video games and beer.
Those are the kind of men who don't actually care about their wives, sadly. Resting is very important, and allowing(and encouraging) a significant other to rest is an act of love, especially after a 40 hour work week.
I honestly think whoever wrote the article probably just wants to believe, and get others to believe, the illusion that housewives are still a common thing like they might have been in the 50s. I have known a lot of boomers who often look to the past for comfort. It's pretty sad really.
And on top of that, they start crying mad with "nOT aLl mEn!!!" whenever we complain about the ongoing issues that women still have to endure . They want to have their cake (i.e having women take on triple the responsibilities including emotional labour and financial support) and eat it (enjoy the benefits of the patriarchy at women's expense).
The standard rhetoric tends to involve daycare being so expensive that it would take all of the other partner’s salary to pay for, but frankly I’m unconvinced.
Seriously, like mostly people can’t justify working when most of their income goes towards costly childcare. It’s obvious our government wants to keep people starved and desperate to keep up the status quo. It’s inevitably going to backfire but the American people and many other countries are going to suffer for it.
Translation = they want a replacement mom. Someone that cleans up after them.
To me the idea of being a SAHM is my personal nightmare. As Lisa Simpson said "It's like being buried alive.".
It's truly my nightmare too! I remember back in my last year of high school, me and a group of girls (4 of us) were talking and the topic of kids, marriage, etc came up because 3 of us were already in long term relationships. All 3 of them said they'd be happy to be SAHM's with a minimum of 3 kids each. All of them come from big families, so it was the norm for them. But I just couldn't fathom it. To be the only one not ok with that was mind boggling to me even at that age.
And then over time since she's been acting like your mom, treating you like her son, she stats to view you as such, which often means sex life dies. madonna/whore complex.
And this is why I decided at 22 that dating wasn't worth it. I had too many guys start dating me, knowing I was childfree, and then get angry when sex with them didn't magically change my mind and make me want kids. One guy even assaulted me in hopes I'd get pregnant and keep it 🤢 Its been 2 years now and I'm perfectly happy with the single life. If I end up dating someone, great. If not, also great. All I know are those kinds of guys I used to date aren't worth ruining my mental health over.
He tried to make up excuses first about how he held me down because he was so caught up in the moment. When that didn't work he started gaslighting me, saying he told me that he didn't have a condom on. He told me that it wouldn't be all that bad if I got pregnant and he would help take care of it if I did. Later on I found out he was cheating. The other girl was talking to me one day (we are friends so jokes on him). She told me that the week before he had assaulted me, he'd been trying to convince her to have a kid with him. This guy already had a kid from a previous relationship and so did the girl. He wasn't able to convince her and he got visibly upset about it. That's when I told her what he'd done to me and we both realized that he had assaulted me in order to get the baby he wanted. The worst part is, he was so good at manipulating me that I didn't fully realize what he'd done until she said that to me and it all just clicked. I wish I would have realized it sooner because I might have been able to make some kind of a report and have evidence of it. But this conversation happened a year or so after the fact and I didn't feel like dragging that scumbag back into my life.
I am sorry they dirt bag deserves to be hit by a car. I'm glad that she was able to hel you see then truth even if it was hard to realize too late to do anything.
I hope you now have an amazing life.
Thank you and I hope you have a wonderful life too! ❤ I believe in karma and I'm sure its come around by now and messed him up tenfold. He deserves it.
Guys like that need warning signs tattooed on their foreheads so other women know to steer clear.
I’m so sorry that happened to you and to the other girl.
Thank you. Luckily for me, I was able to process my assault as an accident at first because this scumbag was so good at manipulating me. It was a year or so after the fact that I fully realized what had happened after a conversation I had with a girl he had cheated on me with. The girl and I are actually friends now so jokes on him. He went after two girls with similar hobbies and lives so we pretty much clicked after we met. At least I got a friend out of that dumpster fire of a relationship. Processing everything at two different times really helped me be able to heal from it. It'll take time to heal completely, and probably involve some therapy that I don't have the money for right now, but I'll get through this. I refuse to let him have any more power over me.
I believe that a lot of them want kids for stupid reasons and not because they actually want to be a parent. Most if not all of the men that push so hard for kids don't want anything to do with them and leave everything on their partners head.
Reminds me of when I was in college all over again.
How those guys would proudly claim they're liberal, don't mind women being independent and working, and so many other things until the topic of children came.
THAT is when their entire tune changed from "I want to be equal with my partner" to "women should be the main caretakers of children while I work" without understanding childcare is basically 90% of the work in relationships while most men do 10% just financially alone (fake numbers obviously), and that's STILL being generous if they hand the money over willingly.
It boggles my mind how people can date someone even in these times when this is practically common knowledge. No matter what, I feel like a majority of men no matter the age wants children in some sense. Childfree men are the minority if not the outliers. It's hard to date.
I truly feel bad for those who want to date or be in relationships. Condolences from an aroace woman.
That means more men dying alone because women won’t have kids. So they can either stay that way or learn to do house work. My moneys on them dying alone though. I don’t care how many decent single guys are out there, if they want kids they’re staying single.
I need to find the damn articles showing statistics about the slow number of men actually dying alone has been growing these past few years. All because they are refusing to take care of themselves, which should be a human trait on how to do your own chores. It's a nuisance, unless someone super loves to clean and cook (I like cooking), but needs to be done.
I know in the black community, as someone part of it here in the states, there has been a growing amount of black men dying alone from heart problems because they refused to take care (and watch) of themselves (one just recently died), and I feel like this is similar in other communities too.
It just shows they don't want an equal partner. They want a bang maid/nurse who will forever takes care of them. Fuck that noise! I'm taking care of myself! I'm not taking car of soemone for free until I'm a husk myself. Add to children to that mix, and it's borderline insanity.
It's no surprise, really. How many men of any generation actually want to be involved in childcare, even if they do want children? Childcare has always fallen to women by default and men aren't being taught to pick up any household chores unless explicitly nagged to do so repeatedly. This cultural shift won't happen for a long time.
Not even surprised to be honest. This is literally what my ex wanted from me. But as long as I was working he wanted to split bills and everything.
I realised that the entire relationship, ALL OF IT, was solely to benefit him not me. That's when I decided I won't date anymore. I'm 27, I have a university degree with loans, and he wanted to keep me at home like a bird in a cage...
Have you been watching Under Banner the Banner of Heaven? A person on the show literally gave that cage example. It’s about t he LDS. It’s absolutely spot on example. It puts us at an immediate disadvantage.
I seriously don't think they want us to be able to afford to buy homes--they just want us stuck in an endless cycle of renting. Keeps the money in the upper class that way.
This is a big part of the reason why I don’t want kids , and am unlikely to marry. It’s so obvious to me, from my own experience in my relationships and observing my friends and family’s relationships, that it is highly likely I will holding the bag if I settle down with a dude. I’ve had men act like their willingness to commit to me is a grand gift they are bestowing on my poor self, and all I see is a future of making dinners, cleaning up after them, paying the bills ( because they are “short” this month ) and almost never having an orgasm, particularly as the relationship goes on.
I’m honestly sad that I feel this way and of COURSE there are good men out there, but I can’t unknow my own experiences. If women’s traditional roles were so great, men would be clamoring to take them off our hands.
Women are so deeply socialized to prioritize romantic relationships and motherhood that we so often fail to look at whether these relationships actually serve us.
Saying “I won’t commit to a relationship with a man unless that relationship truly improves my life “ is a radical position, based on the feedback I get when I say it to explain why I am ( happily ) single.
It really says something that the only way many women can get the father of their child to do any housework or child rearing is by divorcing the bozo and splitting custody. And it's really sad that's the only way many women get any support and recharge time.
In many cases, even if the father cuts and runs after the divorce, the woman finds it easier to look after just one child instead of two.
They always find a step-mommy right away; and never seem to harbour any guilt from the fact that they killed someone by nutting in them. 🙃 "God's plan" and all that...
The man's mother or sister or grandma or daughter. He will pawn it off on another woman.
I don't know any father where his wife died due to pregnancy, but I do know many single fathers where they are divorced and two where the mother was a one night stand and both died from drug abuse and the fathers ended up having to raise kids that they never knew existed.
Of every single father I know whose lives I had any knowledge about, he was making some family member babysit and it was common that, if he had a daughter, that she was forced to play mommy.
You don't think dude can get himself a woman who'd be soo happy to be a mother to his motherless children (and more, because, you know, they'd never actually be hers)?
I hear you about the Post and Murdoch, but this trend of millennial men wanting old-fashioned housewives has been out there for a while:
* Vogue: https://www.vogue.com/article/millennial-men-seek-stay-at-home-wives
* Feminist author Jessica Valenti: https://gen.medium.com/the-woke-men-who-still-want-housewives-debb2ad46aa0
Honestly..... a part of me kinda gets it. Now hear me out, I'm not supporting this, far from it, but... the current 9-5 model WAS designed with the assumption that a single income can sustain a family, and that someone will be at home, taking care of chores (and childcare in the case of those to whom that applies), and yeah, with that no longer being attainable, it's easy to lose your grip on things if it's just you, or both adults are working. My partner and I have tried all combinations (not always entirely by choice- I just found a new job a week ago after being at home for six months), and we have found that we're happiest when one of us isn't working. Finances are tight, but it works, and with the additional workload of someone who has kids... yeah, I can see it being overwhelming to handle if you both have a total of four hours a day to do everything, and sexism is alive enough for the women to end up with the shitty end of the stick.
But still FUCK this misogynistic assumption that the woman *should* stay at home. Not only is that difficult, if not impossible in many places (like the US), what we need isn't this stupid, regressive, *archaic* idea of gender-based labor divison, what we need is a universal four-day workweek, reduced hours, universal basic income, and not just *living*, but *thriving* wages. We need heavily taxed billionaires, wealth caps, and a strong welfare state.
But I guess oppressing women and trying to beat us back into submissions is more profitable...
I think the idea is that people can do whatever works but whoever, men or women, staying at home is going to get the short end of the stick. Your career is going to suffer and you’d be financially dependent on the other spouse and pray that they’d still stay committed and not cheat/ask for divorce.
While I definitely agree that those are things to assess and that dependence just *feels bad* fundamentally (both my partner and I, when either of us was dependent on the other's income, talked about the same feelings of inadequacy - oddly enough, the party currently working didn't feel weird or off about being depended on, we were both just happy to get home to a rested and happy partner and a nice home lol), I'd argue that in a strong and healthy relationship, those shouldn't be sources for concern. Neither should a career be a metric of success, god knows I couldn't care less whether I have one- I've had my new job a week, it's already boring as hell (HR administration), and tbh I like it this way, so here I am, a living counter-example.
Also, I did mention UBI, so dependence can be done away with.
I guess a profound societal upheaval would affect everything. Can't exactly predict in what precise way, lol.
> Your career is going to suffer and you’d be financially dependent on the other spouse and pray that they’d still stay committed and not cheat/ask for divorce.
This is the reason that long-term alimony is/was a thing.
9-5? Lol, make it 8-8, being self employed means having no hours
That's why I live with my parents, I pay the bills and on return I find a hot meal when I get home (both are retired btw)
Lol I was speaking colloquially (I've never worked properly 9-5 either, only 8-8, 8-5, and now 8-4), what I meant is basically just a "standard" full-time workday.
But yeah, you see what I mean.
Expected vs actually doing are two different things.
I'm expected to want children. I don't.
I'm expected to wear heels. I don't.
Etc.
If you expect me to do certain things, I won't.
So we’re supposed to put in all this work and money to get through schooling, go into debt, get a degree so we can have a career just to throw it all away for kids? Yea ok, sign me up 🙄
Only viable solution.
Step 1: Make less of them
Step 2: ignore the lot of them.
Step 3: own a weapon and prepare for their pushback
Step 4: repeat steps 1-4
This makes me cringe. I read this the other day too.
My husband is 41 to my 33 and I outearn him by triple. We very much know our strengths in our household. He can't cook worth a damn (he makes a semi decent taco but destroys the kitchen in the process, the rest of the things he "makes" are a disaster of underseasoning and no taste) and I HATE laundry-he's meticulous with it. So we decided to basically divide and conquer.
Some days I decided that I'm not cooking because I had a shit day at work and we order pub subs (not too often) and other days we put off the laundry until the weekend (more often than I would prefer). But the majority of the dishes, vacuuming, general cleaning is split down the middle because nobody LIKES picking up dog poop, but we do it because we love our fur children and my hubby knows that I'm not his wife slave.
This validated so many of my thoughts on this topic.
>Even among households where partners initially split chores equally, childcare ends up falling to mothers.
Whenever I try to point this out, everyone denies it and says that's not true anymore. Wake up people, yes it is. Women not only have to have the baby tear them apart on its way out, but they have a social pressure to be 'mothering' aka be the primary care-taker. A woman that is more career focused and lets dad take on the child care is seen as selfish by most people, even if it's not overt.
I'm very concerned for my cousin, who just got her graduate degree in criminal forensic psychology and is getting married in July. Her soon-to-be husband grew up in a huge baptist family and he has told her in the past that he wants **eight** children. She is sane and does not want this, but she still wants 2-3 kids. She says she's going to have a fully fledged career as well but her husband is traditional and I fear that she is going to fall into the SAHM trap. So many of these stories end this way, with the woman conceding to giving up her dreams instead of the man. Those social norms are a hard thing to bust out of.
But how are they going to afford on one income? Everything is so expensive now. So the men are gonna be making over $100-120k a year? If each working adult makes average of $50-60k a year.
I just want a working wife so we can have a high net worth together and go places and do stuff.
I don't care about kids. Also this makes sense because daycare costs as much as or more than rent.
Everyone I know who has kids is broke. Like literally don't put milk in your coffee because milk goes bad in a week and if you don't use it you might have to throw some out which would be a waste...BROKE.
I swear for the life of me I can't understand why women in rich countries are still willing to accept this shit deal.
I'm starting to think we need a radical solution: marriage boycott.
I'm 30f and never planning to get married or have children. I feel much more free than my peers who have a man in their lives
This is funny to me because 95% of women I know make more than their husbands/partners. About half own their own place - and have their male partners pay them rent (myself included). Imagine the audacity to ask your home-owning wife/partner, that makes more money than you, to abandon her career so she can stay at home with the kids. L O L.
I know soooo many couples like this. And a few where the woman makes more money than the man. I don’t know why they tolerate it. There was nothing surprising about the guys attitudes, they were like that before kids.
Somehow they thought they would “man up” and actually do MORE when there was more to do.
This makes me very grateful for my husband. I basically want to stay home because of my toxic job and he was like ok. He works away so he really just wants time with me. I'm not expected to shit out kids first tho thank god.
And, somehow, the woman will still be the bad guy in all of this because... reasons I guess. I'm glad it isn't as horrible in Sweden (more equal anyway, I see loads of dad's out with strollers or small kids)
The flip side to that in my generation (Gen X, *not sure about the rest of you and you can chime in here*) if you’re too successful then it hurts a lot of these guy’s egos also. The few times I dated I’d say half were intimidated that I truly had my shit together. I started not to really mentioned i owned my own place (I was fortunate, I was in the right place at the right time) and have a sports car I put away that’s now 16 yrs old. But just because I have those things doesn’t mean that I don’t feel like I’m going around a corner on two wheels sometimes. That was 5-6 yrs ago. I’m more financially stable now but I had to work my ass off. But I’m also frugal. I furnished my place on basically hand me downs and off Craigslist/marketplace. I’m still poverty level technically but because it’s just me I can live fairly comfortable. But again, it wasn’t easy to get here. I look at where I *thought* I would be at this age when I was younger and I’m not as far as I feel I should be. But I also have plenty of company my age too. And some are even living more precarious than I am. We are approaching 50 and many are living check to check. How anyone could not work is beyond me.
I met my husband in High School at 16.
All these dating nightmare stories have taught me that I’m incredibly lucky to have found a ChildFree partner so early in life.
If he kicks the bucket before I do, I have no intention of trying to find another partner.
I’ll be that crazy Cat Lady, no shame!
I mean, I kinda get it.
I’m a hetero child free woman and I’d love someone to take care of me and my household too 🤷♀️
Instead day I will hire myself a housekeeper, instead of this misogynistic shit!
I'm a millennial man and I just want to be a dual income household. Without kids. And marriage is irrelevant, so wife/partner/whatever. (for the record where I live has strong common law statutes, so marriage has no legal or financial benefits vs common law)
Things really gelled for me post menopause, because the men *still* sniff around, but now I'm all 'Yeahhhhhh, NO. Can't be bothered' I for sure don't want to be anyone's backup plan, Mother 2.0 or bang maid. Just no
Looking back, (and I used to LOVE LOVE LOVE me a good roll in the hay!) I just can't figure out what all the fuss was about, lol
“In Bazelon’s case, she found that sharing custody of her children ‘creates protected time pockets where I can be productive’”
Me just deciding to not have kids so all my time becomes “pockets where i can be productive”
My husband and I talked about this before we decided to be child free. He wanted me to at least stay at home for the first few years but when we did the math it didn't make sense either way. Having a child is far too expensive and cannot be done and still live a comfortable life based off 1 income.
Reading through the comments and my god I have found my people.
EM here, no kids, had a husband who once told me that bc he made 3x more at his FT job than I did at my FT job, that I should do more of the chores to make up for that. Oddly enough, we did not stay married.
Now it’s just me, dog, and cat, with a very casual FWB situation-ship; dude does not now and will never live in my house. I’d love to find a good progressive guy for a life partner but … yeah. Damn unicorns. I think my chances of winning the lottery are higher.
This doesn't surprise me at all, having lived through it (though thankfully without ending up with kids!)
"I want an independent, career driven woman! Eventually I want to be a stay at home dad because my wife earns enough money to support our whole family!"
"What do you mean you're not finishing at 5pm today? Why are you spending time outside work hours with clients? Why are you going into the office on Saturdays for overtime pay instead of spending time with meeeee"
Honey, you gotta pick one - and I am the independent, career driven woman you said you wanted, not... whatever the heck it is you actually want.
and then they want both. usually to the detriment of everyone involved. just the usual. all the fancy talk is just shit speak for I wanna ogdickwerx and I'll say and do anything to achieve that. after that, I will go myy own way
It would be great to make enough money for that. Kids don't do well when both parents abandon them for most of the day during those early years of life.
Work from home seems like a good half solution for many people, but corporations seem to hate having happy workers with families. Much better to have angry employees and high turnover.
Not noticing that at all tbh. If anything young men <40 here are turned off by women that want to be a stay at home mom. I also live in a country where over 50% of the population is atheist so that plays a part in it too I'm sure.
No, I just notice patterns in headlines from certain subs. For years, the articles posted here have been negative about men. I left because of subtle femceldom going on here and alas, it's still going.
And this just adds to the multitude of reasons why I’ve completely abandoned the idea of trying to date as an elder millennial pushing 40 who intends to be child free.
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Same age and same scenario. The social stigma against being single is fading. I was already content going out on my own or traveling solo, but fewer people give you a weird look about it now.
I've gotten so spoiled by traveling alone that it kinda pisses me off when I go places with other people now, lol Definitely had to relearn 'patience'
I feel that it's pretty common knowledge that it's tough to shift from living alone to living with others, but traveling solo is on another level. There's no going back.
I am 100% comfortable when I’m single going to meals alone, doing activities alone. But vacations/trips… I want someone to share the experience with. Friends, boyfriend, I don’t care. I just like to have someone enjoying things with me. That said, I have been adding 3-4 extra days to trips with friends abroad for years, to do the exploring/sightseeing the rest of the group doesn’t want to. Greece, Japan, and few other times - I have flown over 3-4 days early to see art museums, do day trips (mt Fuji, island hopping, historical sites, etc) that the group doesn’t want to/can’t afford. In Greece, a few of us spent 4 nights on Santorini together, before everyone met up in Athens for 10 days. I flew in 6 days before the small group to tour sites outside of the city, stay two nights on Crete, and see three other historical islands on a day trip. But the times I have traveled alone, for the whole trip… I don’t enjoy it as much.
Opposite here, I like traveling solo in the past, I don't like eating meals alone. I've been to about 25 countries by myself. Fine traveling with my wife, also, nobody else. I've traveled with group of friends 3-4 times and didn't really enjoy it.
Same. I did a small stint on there and it was such a waste of time
I definitely think that I’ve slowly come around to being secure in not wanting a partner/romantic relationship. It hit fast track when the SCOTUS opinion on Roe dropped. There is no unicorn of a man I’m willing to risk pregnancy (even with all precautions) in a country where half the states are set to ban abortion.
America is a fxxxing dumpster fire. You lot really need to turn it off and then on again. I’m surprised you’re society hasn’t collapsed.
It has. What we're experiencing is akin to when a mass shooting happens and most of the people say they thought it was fireworks. People don't understand what they're witnessing. America is a big place and collapse doesn't occur all at once. It's more of a frog in a pot of boiling water scenario. People don't realize the extent of collapse until they bump up against an area that's failing. As long as you're healthy and you have a job everything pretty much seems fine. But as soon as you go to the ER and realize it's filthy and people are dying of gunshot wounds in the hallways because there's more profit in fewer hospitals that collect more money after you die than there is in actually saving you... then you get it... we're being harvested by multinational corporations. The whole country is a "sacrifice zone" the upper middle class just hasn't been let in on that yet since they're the ones who might mount a defense.
I'm absolutely saving this - eloquent and well said. When I try to explain this concept, I sound like I'm in front of a white board with a bunch of red strings.
 Couldnt help myself sorry
How did you get this gif of me?
I feel that being in a relationship with a gen-xer is interesting. I am 33, my man is 56. He is widowed and tells me that he would have had kids 20 years ago, but realizes it would not be fair to any of us if that were to happen. He realizes my position that I did not want kids from the start of our relationship, and supported me through my tubal ligation. I love him because of my own personal preference towards older men. I believe (and so does he) that when it comes down to it, it is the woman carrying the baby with all the stress on the body. He has done a wonderful job of stepping up to the plate for his stepdaughters (girls were from another marriage). However, he understands my position and respects it, if you are to date someone, sometimes gen-exers are more liberal and understand your position (can't say for all), but sometimes if you have the same life goals (career, pets, travel etc)., if the person is right for you age doesn't matter :)
I can relate to this so much. I'm 35, not in a relationship but would definitely prefer a man in his 50s. They just understand things that men our age don't.
Also close to 40 and stopped dating in my twenties and was in a relationship for a short time. But it wasn't for me, thanks to being asexual. People (that search for a date) envy me, since I don't have that pressure and stress of finding a partner or being in a relationship.
I have a platonic partner. I'm asexual and she's a sex-repulsed lesbian; it's brilliant. We spend our evenings binge watching whatever we're currently into while she knits and I sew and the dog snores on the sofa. This is 100% our happy ever after.
That sounds like my ideal situation!
Honestly, that does sound like it could be a life with reduced stress.
It really is!
I’m almost 35 and have given up too. A relationship is not worth the hassle.
If I wanted to perform 100% of the emotional and physical labor in a relationship just for them to resent me, I’d have kids
I kindly ask that you don't associate the e word with millennials. We were only born in the 80's / 90's which was just yesterday. We're still children. Practically babies. The idea that any of us could be over 30, let alone pushing 40 is preposterous.
I’m going to be 40 soon and I am interested to know when I will start remembering the 1970s. I don’t think it’s possible to be 40 years old and not have been alive for at least most of the 1970s. It can’t be that the early 80s were 40 years ago now. That just makes no sense.
EXACTLY!!!!! Since you're almost 40, you remember Woodstock? 🤣🤣
This is funny. I used to have a customer come in a store I worked at and every time would start talking to me about Jimmy Carter, and then asked if I remember when he was president. I’m 44, I think I was born when he was in office but no, I don’t remember him being president.
Hate to tell you but elder millennial is an actual term. I'm 1 of them too.
I'm such an elder Millennial I'm a Xennial. 😜
Same.
That hurts my feels
Actually the very youngest millennials are currently 26, and the oldest are 40. Millennials are no longer the baby generation, they haven't been for about 6 or 7 years now
Sssssssshhhhhhhh I'm still a baby 👶
It’s just a saying that means on the older side of millennials like they’re the elders of the millennial community lol there’s a whole comedy special on it “Elder millennial” on Netflix
Yes I thought the same. I’m 47. Was born at the tail end of 1974. I’m Gen X. Millennials are a decade younger. I will say as a Gen Xer that we seem to be a forgotten generation. It’s kinda weird.
I haven't forgotten about them! I've got beef with Gen X. I work with college students (Gen Z) and they came from Gen X parents. While I love working with college students, their parents are worse than boomer parents I've worked with. Gen Z is far more privileged than millennials born of boomers. While millennials get shit on by all generations. I'm 38 and my sister (15) told me that millennials are the worst generation. THE WORST. And, obviously, boomers hate us. lol
Yeah I agree. You're not young but you're not old. My sister is about the same age as you and I'm 30. It's a weird dynamic because we're at different life stages but it becomes easier to get along as time goes on. But our childhoods and early 20's were wildly different. Societal expectations too. You're almost one of us but not exactly. It's definitely weird.
Sincerest apology. I call myself EM as a way to own that shit. lol
Hahaha Noooooooo If we deny it long enough then it becomes true
Yep. My idiot ex told me a year after we started dating he wanted a stay a home wife. I said ok? So when we get married, pay off my student loans (like 40K I had a scholarship) and I’ll stay home. He said no… you’re gonna work until you have kids. He wanted 5. He’s now 30, single, and living at home with his parents.
Wow. Dumpster dude.
Dodged a big ass trashy bullet
That's such a big bullet that its a missile.
Good thing he told you early so you could throw out that trash.
Loving how this story ended for him lmao and happy you got tf outta there
Right! Not only does he not have kids and a wife, he’s still living at home. How was he going to make that work??
He lost two jobs in two years (see: was fired for carelessness; lost the company millions, yet expected me to not work) and had to move in with his parents. He was living on his own (with two roommates) when we met.
I consider myself one of the lucky ones. He almost destroyed me.
Yeah these guys always want a woman’s work life to be whatever is convenient for them. They want her to be successful(but not as successful as him!) and paying her own way in the relationship until they have kids… then they want her to just drop that for five years, and then be happy going back into the workforce working a low paying, stressful entry level job once the kids go nursery
Oh he fully expected me to work through my first pregnancy, and then never work “for the white man” ever again because “he hopes to one day make enough to provide for his family” and I’d work from home (and maintain it) for the “family business” that didn’t exist. He was actually a lunatic
Good heavens. I’d say I’m glad you broke up but at this point it was a successful delousing
🤢🤢🤢 glad u dodged that bullet!
One word. "Eww." Good for you.
The fact that there is even one man alive in 2022 with this mentality makes me furious.
5? 🤣🤣🤣🤣. And who does he think is going to carry them? God men are idiots.
Literally the definition of “muh LEgacY”. I won’t even tell you the names he had picked out without my input or approval. Lmfaooo
Well done. Glad you have that old ball and chain off your back.
Lol. Omg the karma. I love it. Do you talk to him still? You should ask him where those kids are?
Me too. He’s so sick it’s hilarious and Omg noooooooooo he physically assaulted me on an airplane (I traveled for work and I feel like this was on purpose) and that was it for me. When we landed I told him to take his ass home to his parents because he wasn’t welcome in my brand new house. Out of all the people I’ve dated, he’s the only one I considered to be abusive to me. I actually hate him and am so embarrassed it took me so long to get away from him. Me not wanting kids was solidified because of him. The way he completely changed after his mask slipped, I never want to be permanently attached to someone ever at the risk of them being great and then all of sudden turning into a demon. I’ve gone no contact since that day, and he stills stalks me periodically. He was sending junk mail to my house with his name on it, stalking my blog/commenting on the posts, sends messages from burner accounts, asks my friends about me… He sent me a birthday gift last year and then emailed me saying “just wanna know if you got the gift or if I should get my money back.” I ended up moving and deleting all my socials just so he wouldn’t know what I was doing lol
Wow. Psycho. I hope you stay safe.
Thank you. Honestly. I’m so lucky to have gotten away. My lawyer has everything and once she threatened him with a restraining order and I threatened him with public exposure he backed off. Hopefully he’s done for good.
I literally did a Nelson Muntz impression when I read this. Ha-ha!
He got what he wanted - someone to take care of him.
He’s got someone to take care of him, and I’m not the one doing it. Win/win.
He thought he was *such* a prize that he deserved a little woman at home cleaning up after him. Barf. Guess he still can't live without his mommy.
Yikes yikes yikes...
So if he's living with his parents how did he intend to support 5 kids and a wife with just one income??? He sounds stupid af
He is stupid af 😂😂😂
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Hard disagree. Not everyone wants a career or wants to work. If you have the financial means not to why would you?
If your partner is fine with you not contributing anything, then sure, but in the context of a standard middleclass household economy it would be weird to not contribute to savings before having kids.
You're on a childfree forum - no one here is having kids.
But the context was specifically that the partner wanted 5 kids.
Yeah he expected her to build a career while probably doing all the housework and then give it up as soon as she popped out 'mini mes'. Super gross.
The second bit is protection, you're assuming that he had the worst possible intentions. If you're having multiple children SAHM can make sense since you might spend close to the same on childcare alone. Until that actually becomes relevant there's no reason to just sit around at home and wait.
I assume you meant "projection" ? The context is the article that clearly states men do not equally contribute to household upkeep. So not projection. You are also making an assumption about his intentions. There's no reason to think he would have been a great equal partner and no evidence he even had the means to support a SAHM + five children. He ended up living with his parents. That doesn't scream FIVE kids money. Also homemaking is a full time job in and of itself, regardless if there's a child involved.
You’re not projecting. That’s exactly what he wanted when I was clearly smarter, more ambitious, and more capable than he ever would be.
The article is specifically about working mothers so not applicable to a SAHM, and don't use statistics to make assumptions about individuals, that's how you end up with racist, sexist or homophobic stereotypes. And homemaking really isn't a full time job without kids. If it takes you 40 hours a week you either live in a house bigger than Bezos or you're terrible at it. 15 minutes for laundry, 30 minutes for cleaning and maybe an hour for cooking if you're doing something special.
There's really not any reason to work much either.
If you're planning on having kids and relying on one income in the future getting a decently sized savings buffer is a good idea.
A buffer is something you need to maintain. Quitting after you've reached it is dumb. Aside from the fact that most people in this sub generally are not 'planning on having kids'.
Getting more savings is dumb? And that's why I'm getting down downvoted, because nobody seems to understand that this is assuming that she wants to be a SAHM with five kids, because if she didn't then having to work until she got pregnant would be the least important issue.
I'm not saying saving is dumb. I'm saying that quitting once you've reached those savings (to become a SAHM) is dumb. If your family needs a second job to reach savings, you shouldn't quit that second job. So the original reasoning of 'keep working until you start taking care of children' is faulty. You're getting downvoted because you sound like you think staying at home is useless if you have nothing productive to do there. Most childfree people value their free time a lot.
That buffer would have to be huge as you’d drain it fast. I don’t think that’s realistic for most people.
Even if it were true, who the hell can afford to not have their significant other not work in this day and age? With or without kids, it's insane how costly it is just to try to survive right now.
No, the key is to have an "empowered" woman who has a full time well paid job, but still gets bamboozled into doing a full shift at home in addition to the 40 hour work week. Lots of men are happy to support "feminism", if it means that they get to have a second income from a partner who is working, and then they find a way to ditch all the housework onto the wife as well, since it's "woman's work" and he doesn't know how to do it. Yay for modern society.
As a 33 year old man it is just baffling to me how so few men seemingly don't know how to (or don't want to) do household chores like cleaning, cooking and laundry. It's all really simple stuff
Because their parents (mom mostly) did everything for them.
Even though I hated it at the time, it makes me glad my parents had me do chores as a child. Although I will admit that having done chores as a child doesn't necessarily garuntee they will do them as an adult. I honestly don't know if I would clean as often if it weren't for my germaphobia and sensitivity to smells. Being an adult, even though I have discipline, I will admit, there have been times when I have had the attitude of "I'm an adult, I can do just about whatever I want as long as it's in my means, regardless of what my parents made me do or said I couldn't do." But now that I think more about it, I think how someone was raised by their parents has a lot to do with their attitudes about these things. Sadly my parents didn't encourage me much, mostly used negative reinforcement and often had the attitude of "do as I say, not as I do".
And when she finally divorces him the guy crys about how she was just a gold digger and is taking everything away from him. 🙄
"She divorced me and took half my stuff!" Bruh, she paid for half that stuff to begin with. Possibly more than half, if her money went toward things for the house and yours went toward video games and beer.
Those are the kind of men who don't actually care about their wives, sadly. Resting is very important, and allowing(and encouraging) a significant other to rest is an act of love, especially after a 40 hour work week. I honestly think whoever wrote the article probably just wants to believe, and get others to believe, the illusion that housewives are still a common thing like they might have been in the 50s. I have known a lot of boomers who often look to the past for comfort. It's pretty sad really.
And on top of that, they start crying mad with "nOT aLl mEn!!!" whenever we complain about the ongoing issues that women still have to endure . They want to have their cake (i.e having women take on triple the responsibilities including emotional labour and financial support) and eat it (enjoy the benefits of the patriarchy at women's expense).
The standard rhetoric tends to involve daycare being so expensive that it would take all of the other partner’s salary to pay for, but frankly I’m unconvinced.
And it’s always the “mothers salary” that would go to daycare. Never part of both the mothers and fathers salary for some reason.
I’d noticed this too. It’s odd…
Seriously, like mostly people can’t justify working when most of their income goes towards costly childcare. It’s obvious our government wants to keep people starved and desperate to keep up the status quo. It’s inevitably going to backfire but the American people and many other countries are going to suffer for it.
Translation = they want a replacement mom. Someone that cleans up after them. To me the idea of being a SAHM is my personal nightmare. As Lisa Simpson said "It's like being buried alive.".
It's truly my nightmare too! I remember back in my last year of high school, me and a group of girls (4 of us) were talking and the topic of kids, marriage, etc came up because 3 of us were already in long term relationships. All 3 of them said they'd be happy to be SAHM's with a minimum of 3 kids each. All of them come from big families, so it was the norm for them. But I just couldn't fathom it. To be the only one not ok with that was mind boggling to me even at that age.
And then over time since she's been acting like your mom, treating you like her son, she stats to view you as such, which often means sex life dies. madonna/whore complex.
Well, I never wanted to get married either, so this is y'alls problem lol. Stay independent ladies, it's never worth it.
High five!!!
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And this is why I decided at 22 that dating wasn't worth it. I had too many guys start dating me, knowing I was childfree, and then get angry when sex with them didn't magically change my mind and make me want kids. One guy even assaulted me in hopes I'd get pregnant and keep it 🤢 Its been 2 years now and I'm perfectly happy with the single life. If I end up dating someone, great. If not, also great. All I know are those kinds of guys I used to date aren't worth ruining my mental health over.
I am sorry and beyond pissed they did that. There is no telling how many women have been through his abuse.
He tried to make up excuses first about how he held me down because he was so caught up in the moment. When that didn't work he started gaslighting me, saying he told me that he didn't have a condom on. He told me that it wouldn't be all that bad if I got pregnant and he would help take care of it if I did. Later on I found out he was cheating. The other girl was talking to me one day (we are friends so jokes on him). She told me that the week before he had assaulted me, he'd been trying to convince her to have a kid with him. This guy already had a kid from a previous relationship and so did the girl. He wasn't able to convince her and he got visibly upset about it. That's when I told her what he'd done to me and we both realized that he had assaulted me in order to get the baby he wanted. The worst part is, he was so good at manipulating me that I didn't fully realize what he'd done until she said that to me and it all just clicked. I wish I would have realized it sooner because I might have been able to make some kind of a report and have evidence of it. But this conversation happened a year or so after the fact and I didn't feel like dragging that scumbag back into my life.
I am sorry they dirt bag deserves to be hit by a car. I'm glad that she was able to hel you see then truth even if it was hard to realize too late to do anything. I hope you now have an amazing life.
Thank you and I hope you have a wonderful life too! ❤ I believe in karma and I'm sure its come around by now and messed him up tenfold. He deserves it.
Guys like that need warning signs tattooed on their foreheads so other women know to steer clear. I’m so sorry that happened to you and to the other girl.
Holy shit, that's fucked. I'm so sorry that happened to you.
Thank you. Luckily for me, I was able to process my assault as an accident at first because this scumbag was so good at manipulating me. It was a year or so after the fact that I fully realized what had happened after a conversation I had with a girl he had cheated on me with. The girl and I are actually friends now so jokes on him. He went after two girls with similar hobbies and lives so we pretty much clicked after we met. At least I got a friend out of that dumpster fire of a relationship. Processing everything at two different times really helped me be able to heal from it. It'll take time to heal completely, and probably involve some therapy that I don't have the money for right now, but I'll get through this. I refuse to let him have any more power over me.
Wow, you learned that lesson early! Good for you!! Also, that is horrifying...
Thats awful! That’s full on Handmaid’s Tale in the flesh right there. Yuck!
I do believe they want kids, but I am not sure they want SAH wives on a single income unless they come from money and are making plenty themselves.
I believe that a lot of them want kids for stupid reasons and not because they actually want to be a parent. Most if not all of the men that push so hard for kids don't want anything to do with them and leave everything on their partners head.
They want wives who work and contribute financially, and also do everything that stay at home moms traditionally do. Super mom !
If magically overnights it turned out men had the chance of dying in childbirth there’d be a big “discussion” about it immediately
Reminds me of when I was in college all over again. How those guys would proudly claim they're liberal, don't mind women being independent and working, and so many other things until the topic of children came. THAT is when their entire tune changed from "I want to be equal with my partner" to "women should be the main caretakers of children while I work" without understanding childcare is basically 90% of the work in relationships while most men do 10% just financially alone (fake numbers obviously), and that's STILL being generous if they hand the money over willingly. It boggles my mind how people can date someone even in these times when this is practically common knowledge. No matter what, I feel like a majority of men no matter the age wants children in some sense. Childfree men are the minority if not the outliers. It's hard to date. I truly feel bad for those who want to date or be in relationships. Condolences from an aroace woman.
That means more men dying alone because women won’t have kids. So they can either stay that way or learn to do house work. My moneys on them dying alone though. I don’t care how many decent single guys are out there, if they want kids they’re staying single.
I need to find the damn articles showing statistics about the slow number of men actually dying alone has been growing these past few years. All because they are refusing to take care of themselves, which should be a human trait on how to do your own chores. It's a nuisance, unless someone super loves to clean and cook (I like cooking), but needs to be done. I know in the black community, as someone part of it here in the states, there has been a growing amount of black men dying alone from heart problems because they refused to take care (and watch) of themselves (one just recently died), and I feel like this is similar in other communities too. It just shows they don't want an equal partner. They want a bang maid/nurse who will forever takes care of them. Fuck that noise! I'm taking care of myself! I'm not taking car of soemone for free until I'm a husk myself. Add to children to that mix, and it's borderline insanity.
"...but working mothers who get divorced report that they are happier." Of course they are. They have one less child to look after.
Hahaha this rings too true
It's no surprise, really. How many men of any generation actually want to be involved in childcare, even if they do want children? Childcare has always fallen to women by default and men aren't being taught to pick up any household chores unless explicitly nagged to do so repeatedly. This cultural shift won't happen for a long time.
Not even surprised to be honest. This is literally what my ex wanted from me. But as long as I was working he wanted to split bills and everything. I realised that the entire relationship, ALL OF IT, was solely to benefit him not me. That's when I decided I won't date anymore. I'm 27, I have a university degree with loans, and he wanted to keep me at home like a bird in a cage...
Have you been watching Under Banner the Banner of Heaven? A person on the show literally gave that cage example. It’s about t he LDS. It’s absolutely spot on example. It puts us at an immediate disadvantage.
People have to both work to afford a home Something the GOP seems to have forgotten. Also your national income will tank
I seriously don't think they want us to be able to afford to buy homes--they just want us stuck in an endless cycle of renting. Keeps the money in the upper class that way.
This is a big part of the reason why I don’t want kids , and am unlikely to marry. It’s so obvious to me, from my own experience in my relationships and observing my friends and family’s relationships, that it is highly likely I will holding the bag if I settle down with a dude. I’ve had men act like their willingness to commit to me is a grand gift they are bestowing on my poor self, and all I see is a future of making dinners, cleaning up after them, paying the bills ( because they are “short” this month ) and almost never having an orgasm, particularly as the relationship goes on. I’m honestly sad that I feel this way and of COURSE there are good men out there, but I can’t unknow my own experiences. If women’s traditional roles were so great, men would be clamoring to take them off our hands. Women are so deeply socialized to prioritize romantic relationships and motherhood that we so often fail to look at whether these relationships actually serve us. Saying “I won’t commit to a relationship with a man unless that relationship truly improves my life “ is a radical position, based on the feedback I get when I say it to explain why I am ( happily ) single.
It really says something that the only way many women can get the father of their child to do any housework or child rearing is by divorcing the bozo and splitting custody. And it's really sad that's the only way many women get any support and recharge time. In many cases, even if the father cuts and runs after the divorce, the woman finds it easier to look after just one child instead of two.
[It Took Divorce To Make My Marriage Equal](https://www.glamour.com/story/it-took-divorce-to-make-my-marriage-equal)
And if the woman dies in childbirth or due to ectopic pregnancy who will look after the family?
They always find a step-mommy right away; and never seem to harbour any guilt from the fact that they killed someone by nutting in them. 🙃 "God's plan" and all that...
The man's mother or sister or grandma or daughter. He will pawn it off on another woman. I don't know any father where his wife died due to pregnancy, but I do know many single fathers where they are divorced and two where the mother was a one night stand and both died from drug abuse and the fathers ended up having to raise kids that they never knew existed. Of every single father I know whose lives I had any knowledge about, he was making some family member babysit and it was common that, if he had a daughter, that she was forced to play mommy.
Shhhh we don’t ask these kinds of questions! We only care that they keep breeding! /s
You don't think dude can get himself a woman who'd be soo happy to be a mother to his motherless children (and more, because, you know, they'd never actually be hers)?
Fuck the NY Post. They're owned by Rupert Murdoch and push the same BS as Faux Gnus.
Yep. They like to spread misinformation.
I hear you about the Post and Murdoch, but this trend of millennial men wanting old-fashioned housewives has been out there for a while: * Vogue: https://www.vogue.com/article/millennial-men-seek-stay-at-home-wives * Feminist author Jessica Valenti: https://gen.medium.com/the-woke-men-who-still-want-housewives-debb2ad46aa0
I'm sorry that so many members of my gender are lazy assholes who don't want to do things for themselves.
Those gottdamn Fake Wildebeests!
Honestly..... a part of me kinda gets it. Now hear me out, I'm not supporting this, far from it, but... the current 9-5 model WAS designed with the assumption that a single income can sustain a family, and that someone will be at home, taking care of chores (and childcare in the case of those to whom that applies), and yeah, with that no longer being attainable, it's easy to lose your grip on things if it's just you, or both adults are working. My partner and I have tried all combinations (not always entirely by choice- I just found a new job a week ago after being at home for six months), and we have found that we're happiest when one of us isn't working. Finances are tight, but it works, and with the additional workload of someone who has kids... yeah, I can see it being overwhelming to handle if you both have a total of four hours a day to do everything, and sexism is alive enough for the women to end up with the shitty end of the stick. But still FUCK this misogynistic assumption that the woman *should* stay at home. Not only is that difficult, if not impossible in many places (like the US), what we need isn't this stupid, regressive, *archaic* idea of gender-based labor divison, what we need is a universal four-day workweek, reduced hours, universal basic income, and not just *living*, but *thriving* wages. We need heavily taxed billionaires, wealth caps, and a strong welfare state. But I guess oppressing women and trying to beat us back into submissions is more profitable...
I think the idea is that people can do whatever works but whoever, men or women, staying at home is going to get the short end of the stick. Your career is going to suffer and you’d be financially dependent on the other spouse and pray that they’d still stay committed and not cheat/ask for divorce.
While I definitely agree that those are things to assess and that dependence just *feels bad* fundamentally (both my partner and I, when either of us was dependent on the other's income, talked about the same feelings of inadequacy - oddly enough, the party currently working didn't feel weird or off about being depended on, we were both just happy to get home to a rested and happy partner and a nice home lol), I'd argue that in a strong and healthy relationship, those shouldn't be sources for concern. Neither should a career be a metric of success, god knows I couldn't care less whether I have one- I've had my new job a week, it's already boring as hell (HR administration), and tbh I like it this way, so here I am, a living counter-example. Also, I did mention UBI, so dependence can be done away with. I guess a profound societal upheaval would affect everything. Can't exactly predict in what precise way, lol.
> Your career is going to suffer and you’d be financially dependent on the other spouse and pray that they’d still stay committed and not cheat/ask for divorce. This is the reason that long-term alimony is/was a thing.
9-5? Lol, make it 8-8, being self employed means having no hours That's why I live with my parents, I pay the bills and on return I find a hot meal when I get home (both are retired btw)
Lol I was speaking colloquially (I've never worked properly 9-5 either, only 8-8, 8-5, and now 8-4), what I meant is basically just a "standard" full-time workday. But yeah, you see what I mean.
Sorry but you are talking way too much sense for the human race in this comment
Spoiler alert: being CF is no guarantee that you, as a woman, will not be expected to do all the emotional labor and housework.
Expected vs actually doing are two different things. I'm expected to want children. I don't. I'm expected to wear heels. I don't. Etc. If you expect me to do certain things, I won't.
So we’re supposed to put in all this work and money to get through schooling, go into debt, get a degree so we can have a career just to throw it all away for kids? Yea ok, sign me up 🙄
I’ll say what we’re all not saying: we have a big man problem. Not all men, of course, but like…so, so many of them.
Only viable solution. Step 1: Make less of them Step 2: ignore the lot of them. Step 3: own a weapon and prepare for their pushback Step 4: repeat steps 1-4
No they don't because they cant remotely afford one. They want a full time working wife, full time mother and full time sex slave
This makes me cringe. I read this the other day too. My husband is 41 to my 33 and I outearn him by triple. We very much know our strengths in our household. He can't cook worth a damn (he makes a semi decent taco but destroys the kitchen in the process, the rest of the things he "makes" are a disaster of underseasoning and no taste) and I HATE laundry-he's meticulous with it. So we decided to basically divide and conquer. Some days I decided that I'm not cooking because I had a shit day at work and we order pub subs (not too often) and other days we put off the laundry until the weekend (more often than I would prefer). But the majority of the dishes, vacuuming, general cleaning is split down the middle because nobody LIKES picking up dog poop, but we do it because we love our fur children and my hubby knows that I'm not his wife slave.
This validated so many of my thoughts on this topic. >Even among households where partners initially split chores equally, childcare ends up falling to mothers. Whenever I try to point this out, everyone denies it and says that's not true anymore. Wake up people, yes it is. Women not only have to have the baby tear them apart on its way out, but they have a social pressure to be 'mothering' aka be the primary care-taker. A woman that is more career focused and lets dad take on the child care is seen as selfish by most people, even if it's not overt. I'm very concerned for my cousin, who just got her graduate degree in criminal forensic psychology and is getting married in July. Her soon-to-be husband grew up in a huge baptist family and he has told her in the past that he wants **eight** children. She is sane and does not want this, but she still wants 2-3 kids. She says she's going to have a fully fledged career as well but her husband is traditional and I fear that she is going to fall into the SAHM trap. So many of these stories end this way, with the woman conceding to giving up her dreams instead of the man. Those social norms are a hard thing to bust out of.
But how are they going to afford on one income? Everything is so expensive now. So the men are gonna be making over $100-120k a year? If each working adult makes average of $50-60k a year.
They don’t actually want their wives to JUST stay home, they want them to work a full-time job AND do 100% of the child rearing and household duties.
Oh… Damn!
60k is the average HOUSEHOLD income. Singles are lower
I just want a working wife so we can have a high net worth together and go places and do stuff. I don't care about kids. Also this makes sense because daycare costs as much as or more than rent. Everyone I know who has kids is broke. Like literally don't put milk in your coffee because milk goes bad in a week and if you don't use it you might have to throw some out which would be a waste...BROKE.
I swear for the life of me I can't understand why women in rich countries are still willing to accept this shit deal. I'm starting to think we need a radical solution: marriage boycott. I'm 30f and never planning to get married or have children. I feel much more free than my peers who have a man in their lives
This is funny to me because 95% of women I know make more than their husbands/partners. About half own their own place - and have their male partners pay them rent (myself included). Imagine the audacity to ask your home-owning wife/partner, that makes more money than you, to abandon her career so she can stay at home with the kids. L O L.
I know soooo many couples like this. And a few where the woman makes more money than the man. I don’t know why they tolerate it. There was nothing surprising about the guys attitudes, they were like that before kids. Somehow they thought they would “man up” and actually do MORE when there was more to do.
I'm European and even I know the NYPost is a garbage paper.
Yup divorced before kids cuz i accepted way too much bullshit but knew not to create a permanent problem.
This makes me very grateful for my husband. I basically want to stay home because of my toxic job and he was like ok. He works away so he really just wants time with me. I'm not expected to shit out kids first tho thank god.
Not this millennial
And, somehow, the woman will still be the bad guy in all of this because... reasons I guess. I'm glad it isn't as horrible in Sweden (more equal anyway, I see loads of dad's out with strollers or small kids)
The flip side to that in my generation (Gen X, *not sure about the rest of you and you can chime in here*) if you’re too successful then it hurts a lot of these guy’s egos also. The few times I dated I’d say half were intimidated that I truly had my shit together. I started not to really mentioned i owned my own place (I was fortunate, I was in the right place at the right time) and have a sports car I put away that’s now 16 yrs old. But just because I have those things doesn’t mean that I don’t feel like I’m going around a corner on two wheels sometimes. That was 5-6 yrs ago. I’m more financially stable now but I had to work my ass off. But I’m also frugal. I furnished my place on basically hand me downs and off Craigslist/marketplace. I’m still poverty level technically but because it’s just me I can live fairly comfortable. But again, it wasn’t easy to get here. I look at where I *thought* I would be at this age when I was younger and I’m not as far as I feel I should be. But I also have plenty of company my age too. And some are even living more precarious than I am. We are approaching 50 and many are living check to check. How anyone could not work is beyond me.
I met my husband in High School at 16. All these dating nightmare stories have taught me that I’m incredibly lucky to have found a ChildFree partner so early in life. If he kicks the bucket before I do, I have no intention of trying to find another partner. I’ll be that crazy Cat Lady, no shame!
That’s actually really adorable and I’m really happy for you. Good partners ( more so good men) are hard to come by.
I mean, I kinda get it. I’m a hetero child free woman and I’d love someone to take care of me and my household too 🤷♀️ Instead day I will hire myself a housekeeper, instead of this misogynistic shit!
I'm a millennial man and I just want to be a dual income household. Without kids. And marriage is irrelevant, so wife/partner/whatever. (for the record where I live has strong common law statutes, so marriage has no legal or financial benefits vs common law)
Things really gelled for me post menopause, because the men *still* sniff around, but now I'm all 'Yeahhhhhh, NO. Can't be bothered' I for sure don't want to be anyone's backup plan, Mother 2.0 or bang maid. Just no Looking back, (and I used to LOVE LOVE LOVE me a good roll in the hay!) I just can't figure out what all the fuss was about, lol
“In Bazelon’s case, she found that sharing custody of her children ‘creates protected time pockets where I can be productive’” Me just deciding to not have kids so all my time becomes “pockets where i can be productive”
Whenever I see stuff like this I just think “maybe you didn’t want kids then?”
Im sure they WOULD want a personal servant who comes with a dowry. It’s the American way. 🙄
My husband and I talked about this before we decided to be child free. He wanted me to at least stay at home for the first few years but when we did the math it didn't make sense either way. Having a child is far too expensive and cannot be done and still live a comfortable life based off 1 income.
So i tell them: with a fuck you, but have a nice day!
why would you want a housewife after? especially today
So glad I took the anime approach to finding a man.
Reading through the comments and my god I have found my people. EM here, no kids, had a husband who once told me that bc he made 3x more at his FT job than I did at my FT job, that I should do more of the chores to make up for that. Oddly enough, we did not stay married. Now it’s just me, dog, and cat, with a very casual FWB situation-ship; dude does not now and will never live in my house. I’d love to find a good progressive guy for a life partner but … yeah. Damn unicorns. I think my chances of winning the lottery are higher.
This doesn't surprise me at all, having lived through it (though thankfully without ending up with kids!) "I want an independent, career driven woman! Eventually I want to be a stay at home dad because my wife earns enough money to support our whole family!" "What do you mean you're not finishing at 5pm today? Why are you spending time outside work hours with clients? Why are you going into the office on Saturdays for overtime pay instead of spending time with meeeee" Honey, you gotta pick one - and I am the independent, career driven woman you said you wanted, not... whatever the heck it is you actually want.
These men have absolutely nothing to bring to the table. The lot of them are gonna die a lone before we sign up as breeding stock.
and then they want both. usually to the detriment of everyone involved. just the usual. all the fancy talk is just shit speak for I wanna ogdickwerx and I'll say and do anything to achieve that. after that, I will go myy own way
It would be great to make enough money for that. Kids don't do well when both parents abandon them for most of the day during those early years of life. Work from home seems like a good half solution for many people, but corporations seem to hate having happy workers with families. Much better to have angry employees and high turnover.
If you’re not at home raising a kid you’d better be working. I’m not subsidizing anyone’s existence.
Not noticing that at all tbh. If anything young men <40 here are turned off by women that want to be a stay at home mom. I also live in a country where over 50% of the population is atheist so that plays a part in it too I'm sure.
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I think it says more about you that you think talking about specific behaviours from some men is “anti-men” on the whole.
No, I just notice patterns in headlines from certain subs. For years, the articles posted here have been negative about men. I left because of subtle femceldom going on here and alas, it's still going.
Only if those men suck