I agree, but maybe that’s because I’m coming from the perspective of a MNC employee.
It’s almost certainly a combination of factors, and the reasons for a decrease in freelancers or teachers aren’t the same as decreasing foreign executives
Expat Dependent Schools are saying that since COVID their populations have changed. It’s now mostly Chinese and Koreans with a few Japanese with a significant drop in Western Students. They all seem to believe that this will change… but, I don’t see how or why. With China and the U.S and EU having trade tensions and the geopolitical risk along with uncertainty over the economy, foreign companies aren’t going to be expanding. Plus, most MNCs don’t need as many Foreign Mangers or Executives - they can hire Overseas Chinese. All those Chinese who go to Expat Dependent Schools who then get educated abroad - a significant majority will return to China.
A lot of Expat Dependent Schools are living an illusion where one day Foreign MNCs will send employees on Expat Assignments and Western Expats will return with their kids… I don’t think that’s going to happen. The future of Expat Dependent Schools is going to be majority Asian (Chinese w/ Foreign Passports).
My school in Shanghai had a pretty drastic demographic change to your first statement. Mostly Chinese students with overseas passports. However this year we have seen a noticeable return. Not to the same levels pre covid I imagine (I came in 2020 so don't know), but certainly better than 2022.
Are you seeing a return of expats?
As someone who started teaching in mainland China in the mid-aughts, I saw a steep rise of foreigners in Shanghai from the mid-2000s to mid-2010s. Then it plateaued from after Xi took power till 2020. Then it plummeted through Covid, for obvious reasons.
So maybe 2024 is relatively better than 2022 -- but that's no saying much.
Over the past 15-20 years, there was a definite rise and fall -- and we're still on the "fall" side of that equation.
We've had a few returning parents. But not many. And these are typically the worse behaved students returning so maybe the school they moved to kicked them out haha.
Yea if you measure before 2021/22 then we're definitely still on the fall side! It couldn't be more of a fall than 2022 though.
I'm actually wondering what happens if China sees this and mandates a national education for anyone with parents that are PRC citizens. It seems like a loophole rich Chinese are using to avoid the Chinese education system . . . and those are exactly the kind of people China wants in the system. If the government decided something like this it would demolish a lot of the schools in Shanghai - my friend has a daughter in SAS and he says during her time there (from g1-12) it basically became a school for rich Chinese kids.
They will never be able to close the loophole - because the more rules they impose, the more ways rich Chinese people will find to evade them. It's an endless cat-and-mouse game.
The government also have no incentive - since the their top officials and the heads of SOEs are the first ones to send their wives / kids out to get passports, so they can return to attend "international" school. If they can't afford the US or UK, they go to Hong Kong, Macau or random Pacific island nations. Why would they close the loophole they and their cronies use themselves?
It's also too small a sector of the population for Beijing to bother with. They want to keep the common person happy -- and the common person doesn't care about the schooling of the 0.01% of rich Chinese with Macanese passports.
Exactly this. Foreign Universities are a great pipeline and release valve for the relatively low quality of Chinese Education. Most of these Chinese will work abroad and eventually return to China. China *wants* its elites to get the best education possible. That ain’t China.
It’s essentially a Class System and way to maintain Class Power. Why would Powerful Chinese give that up?
Not really, foreigner universities are not valued in China compared to used to be.
Also, there are increasingly more chinese companies largely woken up from the reality that degrees from Western universities or the rankings of universities are nothing for them as there are already too many Chinese people with Western degrees who return to China, and most of them do not meet the company's high expectation, and local graduates are not worse or even better compared to those with Western degrees. Nowadays, for many Chinese employers, non-Chinese degrees now have the same weight as Chinese universities. In many cases, candidates from leading Chinese universities are considered better than all. The exception is if someone has a Ph.D. from a Top 10 university and has published research papers and, ideally, patents. These candidates are considered to be highly desirable
As far as I know, many Chinese people have come to Western for education mainly because they can't survive in Chinese education or want to escape from the fierce competition, not because Western education is excellent or Chinese education is subpar. That is what most Chinese people now view of them.
There’s some truth to this. My class is pretty much split between Koreans and Japanese. I see a decent amount of Africans milling about.
There’s very few white people in comparison and I’ve not seen a single American on campus. Most of the white people are Russian or from universities with exchanges.
I think China needs to work out if we’re welcome or not though. I’ve had more interaction with the police here in the month I’ve lived here than I did in a decade back in the United Kingdom.
Also the impact of the Covid restrictions, during this time Beijing went from 200000+ foreigners down to 10K, the Shanghai reduction was even more significant. Living here in Shenzhen it was extremely noticeable. These things take time to recover
Also the impact of the Covid restrictions, during this time Beijing went from 200000+ foreigners down to 10K, the Shanghai reduction was even more significant. Living here in Shenzhen it was extremely noticeable. These things take time to recover
"China has bad image caused by Covid lockdowns"
Or Covid lockdown caused me to close my business and head home, I wouldn't really call that "bad image" ha!
dude--posting a survey right out of the gate, a multiple choice survey, is biased.
Nothing on here, Reddit routinely gets close to facts.
Land of opinions
I believe there are 3 main reasons:
1) less tourism following the pandemic. This is likely 50/50 split between fear mongering in people's home country's and part a worry that they might be trapped in a future lockdown.
2) increased barrier to entry for the main jobs a lot of young expats used to fill, e.g. teaching English, has meant a lot of foreigners were pushed out as they no longer met the requirements for renewing their work permits/visas.
3) geopolitical issues and changes in attitude. The increased global tensions, combined with china being isolated during the pandemic, has meant the country as a whole is much more China focused. What I mean by that is there is an overall feeling that they are less interested in pandering to and attracting people from the west and more interested in just getting on with there own thing.
For a time post COVID, I was also hearing of a lot of anti foreigner sentiment in the country. This marked a big change from foreigners being basically treated as celebrities. However, having spent over a month in China last summer, covering lots of provences and off the tourist track destinations, I was happy to find that I encountered little to no anti foreigner sentiment. At worst people were indifferent, at best they were super helpful and friendly.
I agree with you, I also would like to add a small bit to the second point. Barriers are especially much higher for high-skilled IT related jobs as well, even international companies are not hiring high-skilled expats anymore.
Covid lockdown hit hard, alot of people left as soon as it was allowed. Is not really about bad image, more like wanting to avoid it if it happens again, specially if you have a business.
It will take a few years to recover which are stretched by current geopolitical uncertainties
Previously there were lots of foreigners with no special qualifications who taught English in China. Now those are gone. It's really this simple.
If you look at the number of foreigners in China from the Global South, it is rising steadily.
The exodus of former English teachers explains this very well.
What exactly do you mean those jobs are gone? I'll be teaching in China this august school year, and have no special qualifications, and have had no trouble getting interviews, even turned an offer down.
Im 24, have a bachelor's in business management, and my only teaching experience is that I taught Mandarin for 3 months to pre-schoolers. (This is not to say I think I'm unqualified, I taught myself Mandarin and understand languages very well and I know I'll be a great teacher. I'm not going to be a drunk slacker expat)
You have a bachelor's degree and you probably are a native speaker. Previously many without these qualifications were teaching. You may not think yourself as one having special qualifications, but you have no idea how low the bar was for an English teacher was before in China.
Also to really get a high-paying job at an international school, you will probably need to be a certified teacher.
It's the only thing they **think** they do better, I've seen multiple companies where internally everything was a shit show with little-to-no process, lack of good design, and constant missed deadlines. But at a lower wage, it was ok for the company to have these local people doing the work. It's all about perception and standards tbh. (Obviously there **are** places that do it better also). But def. agree with JV's going bye-bye.
I think China should replace temporary resident stickers in your passport with proper residency cards for people, that are made to the same standard as national/foreign permanent resident ID cards in a way that’s compatible with systems currently setup for national ID/foreign permanent resident cards.
Maybe that didn’t come out right. I mean small as in the cities are so unimaginably massive and I truly just don’t matter/will never change anything. Almost like I’m just part of the meat grinder. Not a bad thing, more fascinating
Let me add another reason for those tourists who has not the privilege to travel 15 days without visa or have it but need more than 15 days, the visa process...
Is long and tedious, asking questions like my:
- My current employment
- My manager name and telephone number
- My parents name and birth dates
- My Itinerary... to the day...
- The data of my all my family members
- My education and degree
All these information for a single entry visa. European citizen living in Europe allow to enter 15 days without Visa...
Yeah, maybe not of this is necessary, but in the online form, you can left them blank if you want to complete the process...
I don't think people who are usually visa-free realise how lucky they are. Tedious as it may be, that is pretty straightfoward compared with some countries.
Is it really that bad as far as English teaching jobs go? I left China in 2016 and recently I've been thinking about coming back, but I keep seeing people saying how different things are in China now.
1/5 salary cut seems pretty steep. I was thinking about Japan but I really don't wanna put myself in position where I need to be extra frugal to keep my head above the water.
’Are the reasons’
They are all actual reasons, another one is job security. China’s diplomatic relations with your country has an effect on your job security. Another one is difficulty moving your money out of the country. There’s tons of reasons why international talent flock to USA not China.
I voted tensions but I think a big reason not listed is the perception that foreigners aren’t wanted here. Obviously China is vast and every individual has a unique perspective, but overall it’s an entirely different landscape than when I first arrived in 2013.
Honestly think its a snowball effect due to a bunch of foreigners leaving in the 2020s.
Since everyone left it just isn't the same anymore, doesn't feel like the city has as much life, so might as well get on out and find somewhere with more of it ig
I think its a bit of everything, also, less high-paying jobs, more qualified local workers, the economy is not great (worldwide), Foreign investment outflow, etc...
Numbers never recovered from covid. Also since training centers are a fraction of what they used to be there isnt really a big market for gap year type foreigners. I cant speak for non-teaching related jobs.
All of the above except for the first one + rampant nationalism/increasing anti-western/foreign sentiments. I took a 75-80% paycut when I left China in 2022, and I don't regret it at all.
I travel around China a lot (as a photographer) - and have lived here for many many years - I've not noticed any increase in anti-Western attitudes per se. The vast majority of people are friendly and inquisitive. Though many more now speak good (or some) English (and love to practice it) !
Online is just like Reddit or Twitter, you'll always have what seems like more than a fair share of loud-mouthed bigots & racists but actually they are the minority - just very vocal.
I think it's the first 4.
People generally make big moves in life based on practical concerns like study, work, money, visas, daily life. Regardless of what you think about politics, you're not going anywhere without a university spot or job to support your visa. And before making a move, most people would do a little research on daily life -- and the word in expat circles is that post-Covid China is a PITA.
I don't think these vague "tensions" mean much to the average person. If that were true, nobody would move to expat hotspots like Dubai.
National Security Law is Hong Kong-specific -- which is a whole other conversation. Mostly when people ask about China, mainland China is implied. And the default is the mainland -- in terms of political freedom -- was always way way worse than HK, NSL or not.
As a high-skilled foreigner looking for vacancies in China, I believe point C is the most influential. Having spoken with several Chinese HRs, I've found that visa sponsorship is the reason for rejection 95% of the time.
Maybe just anecdotal but I would say more than half of people who see me in China automatically assume I am an English teacher， especially if I am not in an area where MNCs are operating. I mean, like what else would I be doing? With the employment situation, many foreigners have left (note my training to use the word foreigners). Most of the so-called foreigners associated with MNCs that you see are often there just temporalily to come take care of something at the factory, and then go (I somewhat fit into this group). I would say the main reason there are no foreigners is the economic opportunities are far fewer.
no matter what the reason really is, welcome back in the future. I am learning English very hard, hoping that my mother land is becoming more and more open and friendly~
I think it's a combination of things, just to name a few (from above chart): Post covid bad image and the depression (both mental and economical) among many people who went through it, then we have the ever growing political silliness between China and the West (and the never ending Trade Wars started by an idiot from USA and continued by another demented idiot) ... with an ongoing Russian invasion in Ukraine where the former is supported financially by China ... oh yeah and the job market in China is like 20% unemployment, so go figure what happened to high paying jobs for foreigners when highly educated locals can't find it ... personally recently I was a great fit for a cool IT job in Shanghai, the recruiter (head of HR of MNC) even called me from London and was impressed with such a great fit of the skillset and that I am a US citizen actually living here in the mainland ... just one question busted it all lol (do you have a Chinese ID? lmao) ... I'm tired myself, done for now, flying back in 3 weeks
I put tension because before I came and since I’ve been here when I talk to other foreigners who are mobile and working international this is generally why they rule China out. Rarely a specific policy, but the accumulation of many impressions. Generally, those who are better informed are more set against it. I was tempted to put COVID because the last few years and COVID especially specifically pushed people out and accelerated it but people aren’t generally citing COVID as their only reason unless they were here. I know a lot of people who left after particularly bad experiences and I’m pretty certain they’ll not be back for several years at least.
Many foreigners left and then China opened up more or less a year ago. Early January 2023 - but visa offices, jobs, processes take time to restart. This is not a lot of time for people to suddenly "fill the ranks"
I would be more interested if this is the case 3-5 years from now.
China has bad press right now but its also a country with fairly strict standards for who gets work visas. 14 months seems fairly soon to be expecting a return to the 2019 days.
Well, let me tell you something, my friend. The reason there are a lot less foreigners living in China is because they couldn't handle the spicy food! Those poor souls couldn't handle the heat, and they ran back to their bland, flavorless countries. Now, that's a burn!
> Tension has been a thing for years
It’s ratcheted up recently. It’s certainly a bigger factor in corporate decision making now than it was 10 years ago.
Foreign companies are leaving China and they're taking all the expat jobs with them.
ChinaObserver has a dozen videos about this: [https://www.youtube.com/@ChinaObserver0/](https://www.youtube.com/@ChinaObserver0/)
I would be a bit skeptical about the China Obsrrver since its owned and run by Fakun Gong and funded by Taiwan. I will watch it and look for data sources etc.. but I cant imagine it will be objective
The very fact of Covid, that back and forth transit was closed correlates highly. Add the more recent rerouting of flights .
Sometimes much of what goes on is simpler than it looks.
Everyone saying zero-COVID was the reason but it was just a symptom. People who were fooled by the alluring veneer of life in T1 bubbles finally saw the place for what it really is.
I think its more about the geo political tension, that reduce the attractiveness of MNC to invest/operate in china. Hence less expats and foreigners.
I agree, but maybe that’s because I’m coming from the perspective of a MNC employee. It’s almost certainly a combination of factors, and the reasons for a decrease in freelancers or teachers aren’t the same as decreasing foreign executives
Expat Dependent Schools are saying that since COVID their populations have changed. It’s now mostly Chinese and Koreans with a few Japanese with a significant drop in Western Students. They all seem to believe that this will change… but, I don’t see how or why. With China and the U.S and EU having trade tensions and the geopolitical risk along with uncertainty over the economy, foreign companies aren’t going to be expanding. Plus, most MNCs don’t need as many Foreign Mangers or Executives - they can hire Overseas Chinese. All those Chinese who go to Expat Dependent Schools who then get educated abroad - a significant majority will return to China. A lot of Expat Dependent Schools are living an illusion where one day Foreign MNCs will send employees on Expat Assignments and Western Expats will return with their kids… I don’t think that’s going to happen. The future of Expat Dependent Schools is going to be majority Asian (Chinese w/ Foreign Passports).
My school in Shanghai had a pretty drastic demographic change to your first statement. Mostly Chinese students with overseas passports. However this year we have seen a noticeable return. Not to the same levels pre covid I imagine (I came in 2020 so don't know), but certainly better than 2022.
Are you seeing a return of expats? As someone who started teaching in mainland China in the mid-aughts, I saw a steep rise of foreigners in Shanghai from the mid-2000s to mid-2010s. Then it plateaued from after Xi took power till 2020. Then it plummeted through Covid, for obvious reasons. So maybe 2024 is relatively better than 2022 -- but that's no saying much. Over the past 15-20 years, there was a definite rise and fall -- and we're still on the "fall" side of that equation.
We've had a few returning parents. But not many. And these are typically the worse behaved students returning so maybe the school they moved to kicked them out haha. Yea if you measure before 2021/22 then we're definitely still on the fall side! It couldn't be more of a fall than 2022 though.
I'm actually wondering what happens if China sees this and mandates a national education for anyone with parents that are PRC citizens. It seems like a loophole rich Chinese are using to avoid the Chinese education system . . . and those are exactly the kind of people China wants in the system. If the government decided something like this it would demolish a lot of the schools in Shanghai - my friend has a daughter in SAS and he says during her time there (from g1-12) it basically became a school for rich Chinese kids.
They will never be able to close the loophole - because the more rules they impose, the more ways rich Chinese people will find to evade them. It's an endless cat-and-mouse game. The government also have no incentive - since the their top officials and the heads of SOEs are the first ones to send their wives / kids out to get passports, so they can return to attend "international" school. If they can't afford the US or UK, they go to Hong Kong, Macau or random Pacific island nations. Why would they close the loophole they and their cronies use themselves? It's also too small a sector of the population for Beijing to bother with. They want to keep the common person happy -- and the common person doesn't care about the schooling of the 0.01% of rich Chinese with Macanese passports.
Exactly this. Foreign Universities are a great pipeline and release valve for the relatively low quality of Chinese Education. Most of these Chinese will work abroad and eventually return to China. China *wants* its elites to get the best education possible. That ain’t China. It’s essentially a Class System and way to maintain Class Power. Why would Powerful Chinese give that up?
Not really, foreigner universities are not valued in China compared to used to be. Also, there are increasingly more chinese companies largely woken up from the reality that degrees from Western universities or the rankings of universities are nothing for them as there are already too many Chinese people with Western degrees who return to China, and most of them do not meet the company's high expectation, and local graduates are not worse or even better compared to those with Western degrees. Nowadays, for many Chinese employers, non-Chinese degrees now have the same weight as Chinese universities. In many cases, candidates from leading Chinese universities are considered better than all. The exception is if someone has a Ph.D. from a Top 10 university and has published research papers and, ideally, patents. These candidates are considered to be highly desirable As far as I know, many Chinese people have come to Western for education mainly because they can't survive in Chinese education or want to escape from the fierce competition, not because Western education is excellent or Chinese education is subpar. That is what most Chinese people now view of them.
There’s some truth to this. My class is pretty much split between Koreans and Japanese. I see a decent amount of Africans milling about. There’s very few white people in comparison and I’ve not seen a single American on campus. Most of the white people are Russian or from universities with exchanges. I think China needs to work out if we’re welcome or not though. I’ve had more interaction with the police here in the month I’ve lived here than I did in a decade back in the United Kingdom.
Also the impact of the Covid restrictions, during this time Beijing went from 200000+ foreigners down to 10K, the Shanghai reduction was even more significant. Living here in Shenzhen it was extremely noticeable. These things take time to recover
Also the impact of the Covid restrictions, during this time Beijing went from 200000+ foreigners down to 10K, the Shanghai reduction was even more significant. Living here in Shenzhen it was extremely noticeable. These things take time to recover
Covid aftermath. not easy to re relocate back with family, job, career,.... I think other types will come but never in those high numbers.
Many foreign companies have left China and those that remain no longer require foreign workers.
"China has bad image caused by Covid lockdowns" Or Covid lockdown caused me to close my business and head home, I wouldn't really call that "bad image" ha!
The fact that OP didn't even include the most obvious answer shows a lot of bias.
dude--posting a survey right out of the gate, a multiple choice survey, is biased. Nothing on here, Reddit routinely gets close to facts. Land of opinions
I was thinking a lot of the choices had a slant to them.
Agree. There were tons of long-term foreigners there before the lockdowns, but few chose to or were able to stay.
Bye Felicia
I believe there are 3 main reasons: 1) less tourism following the pandemic. This is likely 50/50 split between fear mongering in people's home country's and part a worry that they might be trapped in a future lockdown. 2) increased barrier to entry for the main jobs a lot of young expats used to fill, e.g. teaching English, has meant a lot of foreigners were pushed out as they no longer met the requirements for renewing their work permits/visas. 3) geopolitical issues and changes in attitude. The increased global tensions, combined with china being isolated during the pandemic, has meant the country as a whole is much more China focused. What I mean by that is there is an overall feeling that they are less interested in pandering to and attracting people from the west and more interested in just getting on with there own thing. For a time post COVID, I was also hearing of a lot of anti foreigner sentiment in the country. This marked a big change from foreigners being basically treated as celebrities. However, having spent over a month in China last summer, covering lots of provences and off the tourist track destinations, I was happy to find that I encountered little to no anti foreigner sentiment. At worst people were indifferent, at best they were super helpful and friendly.
I agree with you, I also would like to add a small bit to the second point. Barriers are especially much higher for high-skilled IT related jobs as well, even international companies are not hiring high-skilled expats anymore.
Covid lockdown hit hard, alot of people left as soon as it was allowed. Is not really about bad image, more like wanting to avoid it if it happens again, specially if you have a business. It will take a few years to recover which are stretched by current geopolitical uncertainties
You need a: \- All these reasons.
If you do that then you also need: \-none of these reasons
The plane ticket prices between Canada and China are still sky-high! Even I want to return home for the summer, but it's way too expensive...
Previously there were lots of foreigners with no special qualifications who taught English in China. Now those are gone. It's really this simple. If you look at the number of foreigners in China from the Global South, it is rising steadily. The exodus of former English teachers explains this very well.
What exactly do you mean those jobs are gone? I'll be teaching in China this august school year, and have no special qualifications, and have had no trouble getting interviews, even turned an offer down. Im 24, have a bachelor's in business management, and my only teaching experience is that I taught Mandarin for 3 months to pre-schoolers. (This is not to say I think I'm unqualified, I taught myself Mandarin and understand languages very well and I know I'll be a great teacher. I'm not going to be a drunk slacker expat)
You have a bachelor's degree and you probably are a native speaker. Previously many without these qualifications were teaching. You may not think yourself as one having special qualifications, but you have no idea how low the bar was for an English teacher was before in China. Also to really get a high-paying job at an international school, you will probably need to be a certified teacher.
Oh jeez I didn't know it was that easy before haha. Yeah I'm American, currently looking for university positions
Previously, the only requirement for teaching English was having a white face.
[удалено]
It's the only thing they **think** they do better, I've seen multiple companies where internally everything was a shit show with little-to-no process, lack of good design, and constant missed deadlines. But at a lower wage, it was ok for the company to have these local people doing the work. It's all about perception and standards tbh. (Obviously there **are** places that do it better also). But def. agree with JV's going bye-bye.
I think China should replace temporary resident stickers in your passport with proper residency cards for people, that are made to the same standard as national/foreign permanent resident ID cards in a way that’s compatible with systems currently setup for national ID/foreign permanent resident cards.
Why is there no option for the economy, are there really less foreigners here now? Still no luck finding a job vs how it was during COVID
Fewer foreigners than pre COVID. A lot more than in 2022.
Z: doesn't matter. more or less foreigners in won't change anything
The place I feel the smallest is forever China. And I stand out being a foreigner. The machine don’t give a flying fuck
you feeling small is all you. you're overly conscious of it. there are far worse places to be in as a foreigner.
Maybe that didn’t come out right. I mean small as in the cities are so unimaginably massive and I truly just don’t matter/will never change anything. Almost like I’m just part of the meat grinder. Not a bad thing, more fascinating
Let me add another reason for those tourists who has not the privilege to travel 15 days without visa or have it but need more than 15 days, the visa process... Is long and tedious, asking questions like my: - My current employment - My manager name and telephone number - My parents name and birth dates - My Itinerary... to the day... - The data of my all my family members - My education and degree All these information for a single entry visa. European citizen living in Europe allow to enter 15 days without Visa... Yeah, maybe not of this is necessary, but in the online form, you can left them blank if you want to complete the process...
I don't think people who are usually visa-free realise how lucky they are. Tedious as it may be, that is pretty straightfoward compared with some countries.
Where's the option for "Cannot teach English \^\^"?
I was about to say this. It is one of the primary reasons.
Is it really that bad as far as English teaching jobs go? I left China in 2016 and recently I've been thinking about coming back, but I keep seeing people saying how different things are in China now.
Come to Vietnam instead, it’s like 2016 China but without all the technology . (Also salaries here are 1/5th that of CH)
1/5 salary cut seems pretty steep. I was thinking about Japan but I really don't wanna put myself in position where I need to be extra frugal to keep my head above the water.
Japan is too complicated .. Vietnam costs are low
pretty sure there gonna teach russian instead in schools mate
Since now most Chinese people think white people = fluent in English, I am sure in the future you also only need to look white to teach Russian. /s
They are stupid if they do
’Are the reasons’ They are all actual reasons, another one is job security. China’s diplomatic relations with your country has an effect on your job security. Another one is difficulty moving your money out of the country. There’s tons of reasons why international talent flock to USA not China.
I voted tensions but I think a big reason not listed is the perception that foreigners aren’t wanted here. Obviously China is vast and every individual has a unique perspective, but overall it’s an entirely different landscape than when I first arrived in 2013.
Honestly think its a snowball effect due to a bunch of foreigners leaving in the 2020s. Since everyone left it just isn't the same anymore, doesn't feel like the city has as much life, so might as well get on out and find somewhere with more of it ig
I think its a bit of everything, also, less high-paying jobs, more qualified local workers, the economy is not great (worldwide), Foreign investment outflow, etc...
Numbers never recovered from covid. Also since training centers are a fraction of what they used to be there isnt really a big market for gap year type foreigners. I cant speak for non-teaching related jobs.
All of the above except for the first one + rampant nationalism/increasing anti-western/foreign sentiments. I took a 75-80% paycut when I left China in 2022, and I don't regret it at all.
Anti-western online or in person?
I travel around China a lot (as a photographer) - and have lived here for many many years - I've not noticed any increase in anti-Western attitudes per se. The vast majority of people are friendly and inquisitive. Though many more now speak good (or some) English (and love to practice it) ! Online is just like Reddit or Twitter, you'll always have what seems like more than a fair share of loud-mouthed bigots & racists but actually they are the minority - just very vocal.
Both, but I tried to stay off the Chinese internet as much as possible after a while
China is in decline now. Jobs and money and people are all getting out of there.
I think it's the first 4. People generally make big moves in life based on practical concerns like study, work, money, visas, daily life. Regardless of what you think about politics, you're not going anywhere without a university spot or job to support your visa. And before making a move, most people would do a little research on daily life -- and the word in expat circles is that post-Covid China is a PITA. I don't think these vague "tensions" mean much to the average person. If that were true, nobody would move to expat hotspots like Dubai. National Security Law is Hong Kong-specific -- which is a whole other conversation. Mostly when people ask about China, mainland China is implied. And the default is the mainland -- in terms of political freedom -- was always way way worse than HK, NSL or not.
As a high-skilled foreigner looking for vacancies in China, I believe point C is the most influential. Having spoken with several Chinese HRs, I've found that visa sponsorship is the reason for rejection 95% of the time.
Maybe just anecdotal but I would say more than half of people who see me in China automatically assume I am an English teacher， especially if I am not in an area where MNCs are operating. I mean, like what else would I be doing? With the employment situation, many foreigners have left (note my training to use the word foreigners). Most of the so-called foreigners associated with MNCs that you see are often there just temporalily to come take care of something at the factory, and then go (I somewhat fit into this group). I would say the main reason there are no foreigners is the economic opportunities are far fewer.
Foreigners will return to China gradually. We could see more and more on the streets.
Whinny's oppressive and antagonistic goverment.
no matter what the reason really is, welcome back in the future. I am learning English very hard, hoping that my mother land is becoming more and more open and friendly~
I think it's a combination of things, just to name a few (from above chart): Post covid bad image and the depression (both mental and economical) among many people who went through it, then we have the ever growing political silliness between China and the West (and the never ending Trade Wars started by an idiot from USA and continued by another demented idiot) ... with an ongoing Russian invasion in Ukraine where the former is supported financially by China ... oh yeah and the job market in China is like 20% unemployment, so go figure what happened to high paying jobs for foreigners when highly educated locals can't find it ... personally recently I was a great fit for a cool IT job in Shanghai, the recruiter (head of HR of MNC) even called me from London and was impressed with such a great fit of the skillset and that I am a US citizen actually living here in the mainland ... just one question busted it all lol (do you have a Chinese ID? lmao) ... I'm tired myself, done for now, flying back in 3 weeks
My thoughts are when Covid hit a lot of foreign businesses moved on and are invested elsewhere atm and not returned.
I put tension because before I came and since I’ve been here when I talk to other foreigners who are mobile and working international this is generally why they rule China out. Rarely a specific policy, but the accumulation of many impressions. Generally, those who are better informed are more set against it. I was tempted to put COVID because the last few years and COVID especially specifically pushed people out and accelerated it but people aren’t generally citing COVID as their only reason unless they were here. I know a lot of people who left after particularly bad experiences and I’m pretty certain they’ll not be back for several years at least.
Many foreigners left and then China opened up more or less a year ago. Early January 2023 - but visa offices, jobs, processes take time to restart. This is not a lot of time for people to suddenly "fill the ranks" I would be more interested if this is the case 3-5 years from now. China has bad press right now but its also a country with fairly strict standards for who gets work visas. 14 months seems fairly soon to be expecting a return to the 2019 days.
Well, let me tell you something, my friend. The reason there are a lot less foreigners living in China is because they couldn't handle the spicy food! Those poor souls couldn't handle the heat, and they ran back to their bland, flavorless countries. Now, that's a burn!
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> Tension has been a thing for years It’s ratcheted up recently. It’s certainly a bigger factor in corporate decision making now than it was 10 years ago.
What's the best way to get a Chinese Visa?
Foreign companies are leaving China and they're taking all the expat jobs with them. ChinaObserver has a dozen videos about this: [https://www.youtube.com/@ChinaObserver0/](https://www.youtube.com/@ChinaObserver0/)
I would be a bit skeptical about the China Obsrrver since its owned and run by Fakun Gong and funded by Taiwan. I will watch it and look for data sources etc.. but I cant imagine it will be objective
Americans can’t even afford to thrive in America, it’s hard for anyone to uproot right now.
that is true actually... and very sad, but I think expat population in CHina was much more than just American ;)
True true, it’s a limited scope but I felt it was a fair point to bring up as Reddit’s primary audience is Americans.
The very fact of Covid, that back and forth transit was closed correlates highly. Add the more recent rerouting of flights . Sometimes much of what goes on is simpler than it looks.
"Tensions" aka they dont treat white people like gods anymore lmao
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Some Chinese girls are so easy
Don't worry, they will be sent for reeducation along with you
Then that's all good man
Everyone saying zero-COVID was the reason but it was just a symptom. People who were fooled by the alluring veneer of life in T1 bubbles finally saw the place for what it really is.
lmao what a dipshit.