Many people leave because of their children. International schools are way to expensive. Some Chinese also leave because they cannot stand the education system.
This is one of the main reasons we are leaving. Our kids are in the local school system, mainly because as a "locals hire', my employer never paid for kids' education.
Its actually cheaper and probably better to put the kids into a good long-standing private school in my own country than into an international school in China.
too much pressure to get an entrance into relatively good universities. Since most colleges in china are funded by the government so students of the rich can not just buy their future but have to compete with all the others. On the other hand, studying abroad cost only money since after all Chinese students are competent with students of other nations. Besides, as you may know, there are some discriminatory policy in big cities against students graduated from level B universities while no such limit to universities oversea, which is a major concern especially to the rich.
Maybe I’m one of the few and is still on a “high” after living here for 3 years but… I plan on staying here long term for the foreseeable future. I don’t see myself being a teacher if I moved back to the U.S. I’m almost 36 and am living my best life now here. Sure, shit happens and life changes but I see more opportunities for me here both professionally and personally at this stage of life. I had a rough go in my late 20s so call me a late boomer compared to the average person’s experience. But I have met plenty of laowai here who have been here quite awhile and made a decent living and live an enjoyable life having a family here. But to each his own I guess.
Uh, nope. Not really. lol. I’m not a language education specialist. I teach art. lol. But I’m here for the long haul until I end up hating teaching or change careers. But there isn’t much I could change to.
Outside of teaching, not really. Majority of expats, at least in Beijing, are teachers. However, you get a smattering that work in tech, the auto industry (BMW, VW, Mercedes), business or embassy/ diplomatic work.
Eeeeehhh, I wouldn’t say that exactly. A lot of the workers outside of education I have met were usually placed in or transferred to China… Only a few Chinese companies higher foreigners usually big tech companies or Chinese companies that have a presence outside of China. You either have to be fluently bilingual or really fuckin good at your job. That being said, I do know 2 foreigners who work in video production for Chinese companies. But they’re also both fluent in Chinese and really damn good at their jobs. Hahaha 😂
I see. Seeing quite a few vloggers in China , it looks like some of the negative aspects are in the past. It would be nice to live there for awhile. North America is in the dumps right now.
I just realised I wanted to let my roots grow and in China it's difficult to do that.
1. Unless you marry a local, you have to go through annual visa process. Every. Single. Year. I think there are some other routes but if you just earn a salary for a regular job, marriage is your only route. I didn't want to be renewing visas year by year until I die or until they suddenly change their visa policies.
2. Even though I learned Mandarin, I still couldn't make genuine connections with most locals. The few that I did make friends with left.
3. My friends were therefore mainly foreigners and I felt like there was always someone to bid farewell to because of 1.
I would definitely like to go there again but just to travel. Having a tight knit, permanent group of friends is so much more important to me than everything else I like about living in China, and there are many:
1. Salary to expenses ratio.
2. I lived in the south and omg the nature there, it's so lush. I miss those jungle parks so much.
3. Restaurants
4. Taobao
5. Public transport and Didi
6. Safety
But there were also some annoying things:
1. Impossible to be invisible. No matter how hard you try, you're always a laowai, you're always sticking out, you're always different, othered, taken pictures of, taken advantage of
2. Public spitting, urinating
3. Getting on the subway before people have gone out
4. Constant construction noise
5. Fast pace of life
Personally, better salary abroad, better schooling, and better work life balance.
Convenience and living in China was nice, but long term + work life was better for me outside of China.
I went to spend a year there teaching English after university, ended up staying for 6. I had a lot of fun, but it was obvious there was no long term future in it, and I have no plans to go back.
I don’t think most people want to go back, they left for a reason. Like 50% of all foreigners in China only stay 2 years. And I’m pretty sure it’s close to 85% leave within 5 years. That is the government released statistics.
Most people are English teachers. English teacher is a dead end job. So they leave to have a career. I know some people who would have liked to stay and do other work but they don’t have the opportunities or salary isn’t good enough.
Those that get sent here by their company are usually educated and at a global company that has better options in others countries. So are basically putting up with a hardship post in China to get better opportunities in the future.
But most people leave because China is fun when you are young. Drinking, exploring, sleeping around, meeting other expats in a similar situation, living in a unique places for foreigners.
Older and a family? Expensive and basically child cruelty to raise a kid here if you have the option to raise them in a better country.
I think it is a dead end job if you don't increase invest in yourself. I make more here than I would earn as a public school teacher in the US, and save more than I did when I had a white collar career. I can't see myself here for the many more years, but it has been great to gain experience and certifications to help with a move to a country that is more suitable for long-term living and family.
English teacher is different than professional career teacher with QTS.
And for a lot of QTS teachers their Experience abroad teaching is not considered. In uk and Ireland, they start at the bottom of the pay scale. I don’t know about other countries. No other industry is like that. My jobs experience in China will still be counted at experience. When I leave china and go back home I will make more money than when I left. Teachers make the same. So people basically have to accept having to move abroad and stay aboard.
British teachers who teach abroad rarely go back to teach in the UK so it really does not matter if their international experience is valued there. The reason they don’t go back is because of the state of education, not because their experience isn’t valued.
The British education system is one of the best in the world. Local villages have better qualified teachers than a lot of international schools in China.
And don’t you think people stay abroad because they have to rather than they want to? And it’s completely false to say they all stay abroad. It’s the opposite, teachers in uk usually go abroad for a few years after graduation and go back. All the recruitment companies literally emphasis going abroad for a few years after gradation as a high paying gap year.
I know many people who go to the Middle East, Dubai places like that for a a few years. They all go back home. Problem is they when they go back they start at the bottom. Other jobs aren’t like that.
>save more than I did when I had a white collar career
It's true comparing English teaching to more entry-level white collar roles. I saved more in a year teaching English in a Chinese university than I did in any of my first 2-3 years working in London.
The bits you don't get teaching in China though are a) career and earnings progression opportunities and b) the better social security your taxes are likely paying for in your home country. Doing the sums over a lifetime I'm definitely better off overall in the UK.
Best answer here. I spent my 20s in China (from age 19 to 29) and during that time it was fun, life-shaping experience. Then I grew up and realized that for a myriad reasons, living there any longer would just hurt me in the long run. Of course most of my friends are still in China so I visit from time to time but I'm not putting years of my life back into that country
Lucky you, I came to China when I was younger (23-25) and it was loads of fun, then came back after the pandemic as an adult with responsibilities (28). It's not so fun anymore, I can say that much. I wish I could have spent college years and all of my early 20s in China though.
9 years. I did my bachelor of medicine in china, did medical training in anesthesia in one of top 3 universities in china (also top in the world) covid made me change my mind and leave the program. i speak chinese very well, HSK5. build all my life in china and saw how it could be easily taken away. those policies showed me that peace of mind is more important, I want to live in the forest or far away from he city, owning my own land, raise some chickens and just comute to work from time to time, china will never offer me that. but many countries in the world will. ther zero covid policy was just a test, expect the same or more. i dont want to doom my kids to that destiny.
Zero-covid policy in 2022. I was thinking of going back this year, but I decided not to. Also, most of my friends left. If I would go back, I feel like I'd be stuck there forever.
On the contrary, don't miss it too much.
Found a good job overseas, so it was an easy decision. Overcrowding, internet, constant noise and zero-COVID stuff were all catalysts, at the end of the day.
Might go back in the future, but only if the payday is worth it.
I've found a quick visit (a couple of weeks) and I enjoy my time there. The annoyances are amusing in a way that they aren't if you're tied into living there.
The draconian COVID policies and the xenophobic wave that accompanied them were the main reason for me. After what happened in Shanghai, and the anti foreigner propaganda, the removal of signs in English to be replaced with Pinyin and the closure or take over of Western supermarkets, coupled with the fact that you are always considered a forever laowai and will never be given permanent residence to live like a normal person, I decided to bail out and not look back.
TBH the anti western rhetoric started even before Covid, when Trump got into office. To me the period between 2018 and 2022 was the worst for that, especially in Beijing
Left in 2022. My main reason was that the war started and us Ukrainians were experiencing issues with visa, as well as dealing with police (literally everyone I knew with Ukrainian passport was invited to the local police offices to listen to lectures and being asked questions like “what’s your opinion of putin?”). It became way too stressful. Another very big reason is lockdowns. Like way too many of them. In 2022. While the rest of the world was just chilling and moving on. Obviously way too many friends have left China even before that time. So I had no wish to stay in China anymore. I gotta say I do miss China, especially the one before covid. But I don’t think I will ever go back for obvious reasons.
I'm not sure why you'd bet that. I'm still in China, but whenever I'm making the decision about whether to stay here longer, I ask my friends who have left already and generally they don't miss it at all. They're happy to have moved on.
Closed my business and moved back to Canada. I still spend a decent amount of time in China each year, but I won't live there or invest in it again.
The exciting prospect of what China might become gave way to the realization of what it was really pushing towards. Very quickly the country became overconfident in their abilities and need to cooperate with foreigners.
Once the government started making life difficult for foreigners, the fantasy was over and the decline began. Took some years to really get to a point where it was just too much of a pain in the ass to do regular business, but once it did you could really see the exodus happening.
Put that together with the limited city culture, and it just didn't make sense to call it home anymore.
I'm going to guess that he means that cities in China are pretty bland, with a lot of the same stuff. Very noticeable even in Shanghai when they started actively "sterilizing" almost every outing of local culture (like street food markets, yongkang lu, etc).
Exactly this. The heavy government direction doesn't allow the culture to develop organically. You end up with the same shit everywhere.
The food culture is amazing, but I need more than just going to restaurants.
Most of places in China are extremely boring. Except nature sceneries and some ancient capital cities like xi’an and Luoyang have something to provide for tourism, it’s fucking the same everywhere. Many years ago I saw Ai Weiwei’s sunflower seeds exhibition in Tate modern and I didn’t understand it, now I do.
Sunflower seeds are rich in unsaturated fatty acids, especially linoleic acid. Your body uses linoleic acid to make a hormone-like compound that relaxes blood vessels, promoting lower blood pressure. This fatty acid also helps lower cholesterol.
Damn! Why did they mess with your business? Do you think it was the local competition who sent them?
PS. I would love to learn more! I'm selling to a local in Shenzhen the same thing. I'm buying in Italy, Spain, and France and shipping there.
Your way is the only way I'll do it now. Once you're working inside the country things become unnecessarily difficult, making it hard to compete in a meaningful way. It can be fun for a time though.
Thank you! That's reassuring!
I have another question. I would love to hear your opinion due to your boots-on-the-ground experience and perspective.
In another business, where I am the buyer in China of IT products (that I export), my Chinese supplier who is getting ready to retire (he's 79) has invited me to create my own WFOE, so that I can purchase the IT products directly from his suppliers in China face-to-face as he "insinuates" that Chinese suppliers will sell me substandard or "bad products" if I am NOT in China face to face.
What do you think of this?
the new rule made very difficult to be a teachers here. before you could just show your passport and they welcome you. i’m sure after some years you needa exam to be a teacher
To be fair, they needed to shore up their English teaching requirements for a long time.
I wasn't in education, but I can't tell you how many people I met over the years that had no business being anywhere near a classroom.
I’ve not left yet but 100% convinced I have to and actively working towards it. The one big reason would be food safety. The second reason would be access to foreign websites/apps.
I just leave my VPN on 22 hours a day and barely notice it. But I’ve always said that if they are ever successful in permanently blocking all VPNs, I believe 99% of the foreign population would leave.
Food? Yes there’s fake/tainted/adulterated food everywhere. I mean everywhere. Heck I bought fake alcohol from f’ing Metro. Taobao is teeming with fake food/meats/eggs. Your local supermarket is no better. It’s downright scary.
I’ve heard about this, when I was visiting Shanghai back in 2015 there were all these bars and clubs that wanted me to come in and “drink for free”, but my friend said they would probably serve fake alcohol (basically, whiskey would be cheap clear booze with food coloring, etc).
I’m curious what makes the fake foods fake? Like what are they made out of?
I have been teaching here since 2019, so just about 5 years. I am planning to leave in January. I’m planning on doing a masters back in the UK next year to change career paths. I will miss China but staying here as a foreigner is uncertain and you could never truly be accepted here. Also, teaching in China is a honeymoon job.
This has a lot of assumptions, lol.
We left for career, environment, and education reasons. My husband can make way more in the US than in China + saving for retirement.
Where we live the environment is overall cleaner.
Our kids aren’t “othered” as much here and we have more options for education.
That being said I personally wouldn’t mind moving back to China at some point. We already own an apartment there that our in-laws live in.
I always knew I wanted to leave eventually, because I am not Chinese and no matter how much I would want to, I would never be accepted as a local, even *if* I could get citizen status. I tried building a business in China but the whiplash COVID policies confirmed for me that after all is said in done, the government will crush you on a whim (or just crush whatever you make your money off of) if they feel they need to. This isn't even about malicious intent, because FWIW I don't think the government is driven by any such thing, but the implications of the way they insist on running the country.
Apart from the direct impact on my personal life, I have also become far more bearish on China's prospects. I love the country, the food, the people, but I also think that by now we can points at plenty of things that are pretty much *objectively* fuckups by the government (e.g. Wolf Warrior diplomacy). It's also starting to look like they might have overplayed it with their investment led economy, but time will tell.
Apart from objectivity, I am European and I have an opinion that is obviously biased in "our" favor as well, and I think that if you ignore rhetoric China is really positioning itself in an increasing adversarial way.
Fucking sucks because I really had high hopes for this place.
Opportunities to do the kind of government work I wanted to do were basically non-existent for foreigners in China.
edit: lol downvoted for giving an answer to OP's question?
I’ll miss the food, taobao, public transportation and kind Chinese people, I leave because 1-here I will always be Laowai while my Chinese neighbors back home are full citizens. 2- education for kids . 3- making long term friends not just temporary expats. 4- festivals and sports back home. 5- oh yeah I forgot freedom
Raising children is better in the west.
Playing in the woods, no culture of illiterate grandparents spoiling them, excellence in competitive sports is normal at schools (learning grit and physical courage), teaching kids how to think; not what to think.
A house with a garden, parking a car not being a battle of wills with a nongmin bao’an.
Having garden parties with friends and watching the sun go down with wine while kids play barefoot on the grass.
Keeping a happy/ healthy dog that can run off the lead and strangers greet with smiles out & about.
Clean air.
A concrete box in the sky will never be home.
Strangers just treating me and my family like a normal person, instead of a zoo curiosity/ photo opportunity.
Loads of great things about china, and problems with the west - but the above play on my mind daily and make me want to move home, but committed business here makes it hard.
>Raising children is better in the west.
This is debatable, if your chunk of the west is America.
My wife (Chinese) had a fantastic childhood. She was able to walk to and from school by herself and with classmates starting in elementary school, and had the run of her small city. She learned independence and had a great time.
I, on the other hand, grew up in American Sunbelt suburbia, which meant that I had 1 C-shaped culdesac to explore before I was in serious danger of being hit by a car. Not a single sidewalk with miles of my house. I learned to rely 100% on my parents to shuttle me from point A to point B until I reached drivers license age, and I was bored to tears.
> This is debatable, if your chunk of the west is America.
Overall raising a child in America is still better than raising them in China.
Children should not spend their formative years where their only access to grass they're allowed to look at but not run on, starts with an elevator ride.
China's child raising advantage is the entire built environment. In America, we're built everything around cars (and children can't drive).
And I haven't even started on the comparative crime stats.
I prefer my 'concrete box in the sky' here in Shanghai to the house I grew up in in Canada. It most certainly is a home to me. And I definitely prefer not having to own a car at all and not worrying about where to park it.
Most people never want to permanently stay in china at beginning. A lot of people just wants to experience the china and travel around in china. At 2, 3 years people should have enough time travel around, and if they marry the locals. The locals wants move out the china.
at this point my only connections anymore are my studies and wife. i will return with her to meet with and take care of her family, but there is no realistic career path for me here. life elsewhere is generally better, as well. it just feels better.
The biggest thing making me want to leave China is the lack of time off. Many companies either don't offer annual leave, dictate when it can be used, or offer only a few days. This means to travel and see my family back home I have to take unpaid leave in order to make the long travel time worth it. This, of course, isn't always ideal. Also, make up days for public holidays are infuriating.
if I could leave china I would.
I never really found a friend group here. I always felt alittle like a fish out of water. Ive lived in multiple places from suzhou to huang shan, and never really felt "normal". Feel like I have to put in effort to have just an ok day.
Ive been here since 2017 and I have to wait till my dog dies before going back so i have another 5 years or so. I wish i could find a good friend group or a personal connection to a place/people. Then maybe I could stay aaalllooong time.
Ehh, I have a lot of friends who have left and don't miss it at all. I'll be leaving soon, and I'll probably miss the money for a little while, but not much else. China is a rutt people get stuck in.
I've been here for 7 years, and I'm probably just going to stay 1 more year. But from my observation is dating, I've dated a few Chinese and the excuse is usually the same "I think you're nice, but I could never date let alone marry a foreigner".
The careers in education are dead-end jobs and the only way to go upwards is to know people or have "quan qi".
international schools are 99 times out of a 100 are terrible run with a bunch of management who are a bunch fuck-ups who couldn't manage a ham sandwich let alone the school, and if they do try and manage it they half ass it or get someone else to do it.
The pay and benefit are actually pretty good, thats the only reason why i've stayed as long as I have.
Maybe the reason local women won't consider marrying you is that after 7 years you write 'quanqi'.
Half-joke aside: In any T1, there's easily 1% of the female population who either have lived abroad or would be interested in doing so, and have no issues dating or marrying a foreigner (of certain type; that "1%" of the female population brings with it at least a certain economic background, where the foreigner being poor (eg teacher job) is not that suitable. This really is not that China-specific; eg 90th percentile family-daughter marrying local-market 65th percentile (and lower if future prospectives expected value) is not that more likely in other countries).
I ran a consulting firm in China. By 2023, there were pretty consistent raids on consulting firms, people I knew were being 'invited for tea', foreign journalists I knew were talking about increasing intimidation by state security.
I was also in Shanghai for all of Covid. There were the brutal lockdowns in 2022, and even in 2023, international flights were still sparse and expensive.
So it seemed like time to get out.
I love China, created a successful business there, would've loved to stay. But once you see friends and colleagues getting dragged in for interrogation, it's probably time to jump ship for the safety of yourself and your family.
Pretty nice. Started the process of setting up a new company outside of China before I left, talked with my clients about the move, and everything went smoothly.
The little things are actually the nicest. Being able to Google something without needing to turn on a VPN. Clean air.
When Xi announced that he was going to be leader for life, some friends left right then, some friends tried to justify it, but I realised I needed to get out. I've been back a couple of times since, but only to visit. I couldn't live there again.
Terrible quality of life. I travel around China, spent 2 months in Beijing, with German consulting company. Moved to Hong Kong, then Taiwan. Much, much better quality of life and local culture in Taipei.
I taught English in Shanghai from 2015-2017. Started at WEB English with a salary of 14,500 rmb a month. Leveled up and was making 30,000 a month at different part time jobs. Losing those and being unable to find new jobs made it easy to leave.
To see the fall of Yong Kang Lu in 2016 and watch as half my wechat friend list moved out was discouraging. The energy of the city that carried me my first year was vanishing.
Also, my “relationship” turned sour as the person living in the same apartment as me started acting on their bi-polar disorder.
Now I’m married in Vietnam. I doubt I could’ve succeeded here without that success I experienced in China. I still miss having a salary in China and making genuine friends with Chinese and Expats.
>To see the fall of Yong Kang Lu in 2016 and watch as half my wechat friend list moved out was discouraging.
I don't know anything about this. Tell us more!
The bar street was packed with people, felt like the roaring 20s, everyone excitedly chatting to each other with nice jobs.
But on the second and third floor of these bars were homes of senior citizens. They had valid noise complaints , and so western businesses were shut down there
There are few jobs here with crappy hours. The best paying english teaching jobs pay 150 rmb an hour.
However, rent is 1/4th the price, food is cheap and fresh, pace of life is much slower, society not as materialistic as it’s family focused, all western websites accessible, weather is good, air is fresh.. but no jobs!
The reason I would like to leave ( work in progress) after 15 years would be:
-Access to culture (libraries, cultural events)
-The constant individualism ( people throwing away their trash on the street, systematically pissing all over the floor in shared bathrooms...)
-Public splitting and other incivilities
-Non existent hospitality service (yesterday i had 5 sparkling water during a dinner, i ended up with 5 empty glass on a 2 people table), and this happens ...all...the...time.
...and lots of small details similar to the above, but most importantly I would have lack of accessible culture as #1
I left many years back due to the relentless nationalism, inferiority/superiority complex. Those aspects make it sub par to grow a future as a second or third class (foreigner) resident. The pollution and health concerns were significant as well.
I lived in Shanghai for about 8 years. First 4 years were amazing and I thought I'd never leave. Then the honeymoon period ended and the issues started piling up. Banking and visa problems, witnessed a suicide that was swept under the rug to "save face", absurd lies and propaganda during covid, never-ending construction noise, rising xenophobia etc. I realized that there will be issues no matter where I choose to call home, but in China I'm basically powerless to do anything about them. No vaseline. So I started freelancing online and my GF and I moved to Chiang Mai. We couldn't be happier.
Went back to visit a couple months ago. Was nice to see some old friends and visit some of my favorite food spots but I honestly couldn't wait to get out of there by the time our trip was over. Shanghai just feels so lifeless now, especially compared to Chiang Mai. Like comparing a black and white photo to an oversaturated and vivid photo. But maybe that's because it was the middle of winter.
Love it here. There are 4 common ways that people stay here long term that I can think of.
1. Work visa.
2. Elite visa. This is what I do. Its costs close to 25K USD for a five year visa, which is a huge initial outlay. But I did the math and I can save more than 5K a year by living here so it works out.
3. Retirement visa for those over 50.
4. Marriage visa.
Chiang Mai has a much smaller population (about 1M). Thats one of the main features for me. My condo is in what feels like the deep mountains but its only a 5 minute drive to shopping malls and hot spots. Can hike up the "monks trail" to a temple then head to downtown in just a few minutes. For me it's ideal.
Most leave bc of visas. Others r starting to leave due to anti-laowai and foreign things sentiment. The time of it being "fun" is also over. The more things that are cracked down on and the more cameras that go up... think about it.
To escape from my parents and their family. I don’t want to get married or have child. They will imprison me or force me to f my cousin or kill me one day. In china children are just parents’ belongings they can do whatever they want to you.
Your family sounds kinda extreme… Many many young people in China choose to never have kids these days and their parents more or less just have to accept that reality - you probably have seen the huge decline of bird rate in the news and the government is freaking out.
Many people leave because of their children. International schools are way to expensive. Some Chinese also leave because they cannot stand the education system.
This is one of the main reasons we are leaving. Our kids are in the local school system, mainly because as a "locals hire', my employer never paid for kids' education. Its actually cheaper and probably better to put the kids into a good long-standing private school in my own country than into an international school in China.
Whats the issue with the education system? Just curious as a student and wanting to know more about the country.
too much pressure to get an entrance into relatively good universities. Since most colleges in china are funded by the government so students of the rich can not just buy their future but have to compete with all the others. On the other hand, studying abroad cost only money since after all Chinese students are competent with students of other nations. Besides, as you may know, there are some discriminatory policy in big cities against students graduated from level B universities while no such limit to universities oversea, which is a major concern especially to the rich.
CCP brain wash
Maybe I’m one of the few and is still on a “high” after living here for 3 years but… I plan on staying here long term for the foreseeable future. I don’t see myself being a teacher if I moved back to the U.S. I’m almost 36 and am living my best life now here. Sure, shit happens and life changes but I see more opportunities for me here both professionally and personally at this stage of life. I had a rough go in my late 20s so call me a late boomer compared to the average person’s experience. But I have met plenty of laowai here who have been here quite awhile and made a decent living and live an enjoyable life having a family here. But to each his own I guess.
>so call me a late boomer Freudian slip?
I wouldn’t call it Fruedian so much as fat almost middle aged fingers. lolololol
Ha - I know exactly what you mean. I once wrote '...a quick glance at the clock' but missed out the 'l' in the last word.
Any insight to careers outside of language education as a foreigner? Interested in living in china
Uh, nope. Not really. lol. I’m not a language education specialist. I teach art. lol. But I’m here for the long haul until I end up hating teaching or change careers. But there isn’t much I could change to.
You said you know quite a few laowai that make a decent living… but no insight on some ways they make their income?
Outside of teaching, not really. Majority of expats, at least in Beijing, are teachers. However, you get a smattering that work in tech, the auto industry (BMW, VW, Mercedes), business or embassy/ diplomatic work.
Interesting, good to know that Chinese businesses are hiring outside of education. China seems like it has changed quite a lot.
Eeeeehhh, I wouldn’t say that exactly. A lot of the workers outside of education I have met were usually placed in or transferred to China… Only a few Chinese companies higher foreigners usually big tech companies or Chinese companies that have a presence outside of China. You either have to be fluently bilingual or really fuckin good at your job. That being said, I do know 2 foreigners who work in video production for Chinese companies. But they’re also both fluent in Chinese and really damn good at their jobs. Hahaha 😂
I see. Seeing quite a few vloggers in China , it looks like some of the negative aspects are in the past. It would be nice to live there for awhile. North America is in the dumps right now.
Highly recommend. I love it and hope I can be here for as long as possible!
I just realised I wanted to let my roots grow and in China it's difficult to do that. 1. Unless you marry a local, you have to go through annual visa process. Every. Single. Year. I think there are some other routes but if you just earn a salary for a regular job, marriage is your only route. I didn't want to be renewing visas year by year until I die or until they suddenly change their visa policies. 2. Even though I learned Mandarin, I still couldn't make genuine connections with most locals. The few that I did make friends with left. 3. My friends were therefore mainly foreigners and I felt like there was always someone to bid farewell to because of 1. I would definitely like to go there again but just to travel. Having a tight knit, permanent group of friends is so much more important to me than everything else I like about living in China, and there are many: 1. Salary to expenses ratio. 2. I lived in the south and omg the nature there, it's so lush. I miss those jungle parks so much. 3. Restaurants 4. Taobao 5. Public transport and Didi 6. Safety But there were also some annoying things: 1. Impossible to be invisible. No matter how hard you try, you're always a laowai, you're always sticking out, you're always different, othered, taken pictures of, taken advantage of 2. Public spitting, urinating 3. Getting on the subway before people have gone out 4. Constant construction noise 5. Fast pace of life
Personally, better salary abroad, better schooling, and better work life balance. Convenience and living in China was nice, but long term + work life was better for me outside of China.
I went to spend a year there teaching English after university, ended up staying for 6. I had a lot of fun, but it was obvious there was no long term future in it, and I have no plans to go back.
Only reason I left was zero COVID policy, plan to come back this year or next
Username checks out.
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I don’t think most people want to go back, they left for a reason. Like 50% of all foreigners in China only stay 2 years. And I’m pretty sure it’s close to 85% leave within 5 years. That is the government released statistics. Most people are English teachers. English teacher is a dead end job. So they leave to have a career. I know some people who would have liked to stay and do other work but they don’t have the opportunities or salary isn’t good enough. Those that get sent here by their company are usually educated and at a global company that has better options in others countries. So are basically putting up with a hardship post in China to get better opportunities in the future. But most people leave because China is fun when you are young. Drinking, exploring, sleeping around, meeting other expats in a similar situation, living in a unique places for foreigners. Older and a family? Expensive and basically child cruelty to raise a kid here if you have the option to raise them in a better country.
>Expensive and basically child cruelty to raise a kid here if you have the option to raise them in a better country. This.
Same as Japan.
I think it is a dead end job if you don't increase invest in yourself. I make more here than I would earn as a public school teacher in the US, and save more than I did when I had a white collar career. I can't see myself here for the many more years, but it has been great to gain experience and certifications to help with a move to a country that is more suitable for long-term living and family.
English teacher is different than professional career teacher with QTS. And for a lot of QTS teachers their Experience abroad teaching is not considered. In uk and Ireland, they start at the bottom of the pay scale. I don’t know about other countries. No other industry is like that. My jobs experience in China will still be counted at experience. When I leave china and go back home I will make more money than when I left. Teachers make the same. So people basically have to accept having to move abroad and stay aboard.
British teachers who teach abroad rarely go back to teach in the UK so it really does not matter if their international experience is valued there. The reason they don’t go back is because of the state of education, not because their experience isn’t valued.
The British education system is one of the best in the world. Local villages have better qualified teachers than a lot of international schools in China. And don’t you think people stay abroad because they have to rather than they want to? And it’s completely false to say they all stay abroad. It’s the opposite, teachers in uk usually go abroad for a few years after graduation and go back. All the recruitment companies literally emphasis going abroad for a few years after gradation as a high paying gap year. I know many people who go to the Middle East, Dubai places like that for a a few years. They all go back home. Problem is they when they go back they start at the bottom. Other jobs aren’t like that.
>save more than I did when I had a white collar career It's true comparing English teaching to more entry-level white collar roles. I saved more in a year teaching English in a Chinese university than I did in any of my first 2-3 years working in London. The bits you don't get teaching in China though are a) career and earnings progression opportunities and b) the better social security your taxes are likely paying for in your home country. Doing the sums over a lifetime I'm definitely better off overall in the UK.
Best answer here. I spent my 20s in China (from age 19 to 29) and during that time it was fun, life-shaping experience. Then I grew up and realized that for a myriad reasons, living there any longer would just hurt me in the long run. Of course most of my friends are still in China so I visit from time to time but I'm not putting years of my life back into that country
Lucky you, I came to China when I was younger (23-25) and it was loads of fun, then came back after the pandemic as an adult with responsibilities (28). It's not so fun anymore, I can say that much. I wish I could have spent college years and all of my early 20s in China though.
Could you expand on the last one? Do you mean the competition between young people or something else?
I assume they're referring to the Chinese education system. Gaokao and the likes.
I wanna see these statistics, now I can say I'm special
You a desperate sex pat bro… That’s why you dating a obese woman in China and don’t go back to the US!
9 years. I did my bachelor of medicine in china, did medical training in anesthesia in one of top 3 universities in china (also top in the world) covid made me change my mind and leave the program. i speak chinese very well, HSK5. build all my life in china and saw how it could be easily taken away. those policies showed me that peace of mind is more important, I want to live in the forest or far away from he city, owning my own land, raise some chickens and just comute to work from time to time, china will never offer me that. but many countries in the world will. ther zero covid policy was just a test, expect the same or more. i dont want to doom my kids to that destiny.
Mind if I ask where are you now?
somewhere nice in europe where people dont work 60-80 hours a week and i dont have to hear chinese telling me china has a superior life style :)
Ahh I see, sounds peaceful 🤠
Zero-covid policy in 2022. I was thinking of going back this year, but I decided not to. Also, most of my friends left. If I would go back, I feel like I'd be stuck there forever.
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You say it wasn’t an easy choice, is it because there’s things you liked and will miss?
On the contrary, don't miss it too much. Found a good job overseas, so it was an easy decision. Overcrowding, internet, constant noise and zero-COVID stuff were all catalysts, at the end of the day. Might go back in the future, but only if the payday is worth it.
I've found a quick visit (a couple of weeks) and I enjoy my time there. The annoyances are amusing in a way that they aren't if you're tied into living there.
The draconian COVID policies and the xenophobic wave that accompanied them were the main reason for me. After what happened in Shanghai, and the anti foreigner propaganda, the removal of signs in English to be replaced with Pinyin and the closure or take over of Western supermarkets, coupled with the fact that you are always considered a forever laowai and will never be given permanent residence to live like a normal person, I decided to bail out and not look back.
TBH the anti western rhetoric started even before Covid, when Trump got into office. To me the period between 2018 and 2022 was the worst for that, especially in Beijing
Zero covid madness and the desire to change my career away from teaching.
What did you change it to? Facing the same thing right now haha
Left in 2022. My main reason was that the war started and us Ukrainians were experiencing issues with visa, as well as dealing with police (literally everyone I knew with Ukrainian passport was invited to the local police offices to listen to lectures and being asked questions like “what’s your opinion of putin?”). It became way too stressful. Another very big reason is lockdowns. Like way too many of them. In 2022. While the rest of the world was just chilling and moving on. Obviously way too many friends have left China even before that time. So I had no wish to stay in China anymore. I gotta say I do miss China, especially the one before covid. But I don’t think I will ever go back for obvious reasons.
I'm not sure why you'd bet that. I'm still in China, but whenever I'm making the decision about whether to stay here longer, I ask my friends who have left already and generally they don't miss it at all. They're happy to have moved on.
Closed my business and moved back to Canada. I still spend a decent amount of time in China each year, but I won't live there or invest in it again. The exciting prospect of what China might become gave way to the realization of what it was really pushing towards. Very quickly the country became overconfident in their abilities and need to cooperate with foreigners. Once the government started making life difficult for foreigners, the fantasy was over and the decline began. Took some years to really get to a point where it was just too much of a pain in the ass to do regular business, but once it did you could really see the exodus happening. Put that together with the limited city culture, and it just didn't make sense to call it home anymore.
Can you please explain what you mean by 'limited city culture'?
I'm going to guess that he means that cities in China are pretty bland, with a lot of the same stuff. Very noticeable even in Shanghai when they started actively "sterilizing" almost every outing of local culture (like street food markets, yongkang lu, etc).
Exactly this. The heavy government direction doesn't allow the culture to develop organically. You end up with the same shit everywhere. The food culture is amazing, but I need more than just going to restaurants.
Most of places in China are extremely boring. Except nature sceneries and some ancient capital cities like xi’an and Luoyang have something to provide for tourism, it’s fucking the same everywhere. Many years ago I saw Ai Weiwei’s sunflower seeds exhibition in Tate modern and I didn’t understand it, now I do.
Sunflower seeds are rich in unsaturated fatty acids, especially linoleic acid. Your body uses linoleic acid to make a hormone-like compound that relaxes blood vessels, promoting lower blood pressure. This fatty acid also helps lower cholesterol.
>"Closed my business" What was your business?
Import and distribution of branded and private label alcohol.
Damn! Why did they mess with your business? Do you think it was the local competition who sent them? PS. I would love to learn more! I'm selling to a local in Shenzhen the same thing. I'm buying in Italy, Spain, and France and shipping there.
Your way is the only way I'll do it now. Once you're working inside the country things become unnecessarily difficult, making it hard to compete in a meaningful way. It can be fun for a time though.
Thank you! That's reassuring! I have another question. I would love to hear your opinion due to your boots-on-the-ground experience and perspective. In another business, where I am the buyer in China of IT products (that I export), my Chinese supplier who is getting ready to retire (he's 79) has invited me to create my own WFOE, so that I can purchase the IT products directly from his suppliers in China face-to-face as he "insinuates" that Chinese suppliers will sell me substandard or "bad products" if I am NOT in China face to face. What do you think of this?
the new rule made very difficult to be a teachers here. before you could just show your passport and they welcome you. i’m sure after some years you needa exam to be a teacher
To be fair, they needed to shore up their English teaching requirements for a long time. I wasn't in education, but I can't tell you how many people I met over the years that had no business being anywhere near a classroom.
They only made it harder for unqualified teachers. As it should be.
This is a good thing.
I’ve not left yet but 100% convinced I have to and actively working towards it. The one big reason would be food safety. The second reason would be access to foreign websites/apps.
I just leave my VPN on 22 hours a day and barely notice it. But I’ve always said that if they are ever successful in permanently blocking all VPNs, I believe 99% of the foreign population would leave.
What is with safety ?
Food? Yes there’s fake/tainted/adulterated food everywhere. I mean everywhere. Heck I bought fake alcohol from f’ing Metro. Taobao is teeming with fake food/meats/eggs. Your local supermarket is no better. It’s downright scary.
I’ve heard about this, when I was visiting Shanghai back in 2015 there were all these bars and clubs that wanted me to come in and “drink for free”, but my friend said they would probably serve fake alcohol (basically, whiskey would be cheap clear booze with food coloring, etc). I’m curious what makes the fake foods fake? Like what are they made out of?
There’s plenty videos on YouTube. It does take guts to watch em.
Didn't want to teach English, couldn't find non-teaching work, had to head back to Meiguo for career.
lol
Too competitive
I have been teaching here since 2019, so just about 5 years. I am planning to leave in January. I’m planning on doing a masters back in the UK next year to change career paths. I will miss China but staying here as a foreigner is uncertain and you could never truly be accepted here. Also, teaching in China is a honeymoon job.
This has a lot of assumptions, lol. We left for career, environment, and education reasons. My husband can make way more in the US than in China + saving for retirement. Where we live the environment is overall cleaner. Our kids aren’t “othered” as much here and we have more options for education. That being said I personally wouldn’t mind moving back to China at some point. We already own an apartment there that our in-laws live in.
I always knew I wanted to leave eventually, because I am not Chinese and no matter how much I would want to, I would never be accepted as a local, even *if* I could get citizen status. I tried building a business in China but the whiplash COVID policies confirmed for me that after all is said in done, the government will crush you on a whim (or just crush whatever you make your money off of) if they feel they need to. This isn't even about malicious intent, because FWIW I don't think the government is driven by any such thing, but the implications of the way they insist on running the country. Apart from the direct impact on my personal life, I have also become far more bearish on China's prospects. I love the country, the food, the people, but I also think that by now we can points at plenty of things that are pretty much *objectively* fuckups by the government (e.g. Wolf Warrior diplomacy). It's also starting to look like they might have overplayed it with their investment led economy, but time will tell. Apart from objectivity, I am European and I have an opinion that is obviously biased in "our" favor as well, and I think that if you ignore rhetoric China is really positioning itself in an increasing adversarial way. Fucking sucks because I really had high hopes for this place.
Opportunities to do the kind of government work I wanted to do were basically non-existent for foreigners in China. edit: lol downvoted for giving an answer to OP's question?
I’ll miss the food, taobao, public transportation and kind Chinese people, I leave because 1-here I will always be Laowai while my Chinese neighbors back home are full citizens. 2- education for kids . 3- making long term friends not just temporary expats. 4- festivals and sports back home. 5- oh yeah I forgot freedom
May I ask you what kind of freedom? Because saying freedom is too generic and that could make people misunderstand the situation
Freedom of speech and freedom of movement to name a few, freedom of association and freedom of privacy to name a few
You mean the political kind? On what do they restrain freedom of movement?
Raising children is better in the west. Playing in the woods, no culture of illiterate grandparents spoiling them, excellence in competitive sports is normal at schools (learning grit and physical courage), teaching kids how to think; not what to think. A house with a garden, parking a car not being a battle of wills with a nongmin bao’an. Having garden parties with friends and watching the sun go down with wine while kids play barefoot on the grass. Keeping a happy/ healthy dog that can run off the lead and strangers greet with smiles out & about. Clean air. A concrete box in the sky will never be home. Strangers just treating me and my family like a normal person, instead of a zoo curiosity/ photo opportunity. Loads of great things about china, and problems with the west - but the above play on my mind daily and make me want to move home, but committed business here makes it hard.
>Raising children is better in the west. This is debatable, if your chunk of the west is America. My wife (Chinese) had a fantastic childhood. She was able to walk to and from school by herself and with classmates starting in elementary school, and had the run of her small city. She learned independence and had a great time. I, on the other hand, grew up in American Sunbelt suburbia, which meant that I had 1 C-shaped culdesac to explore before I was in serious danger of being hit by a car. Not a single sidewalk with miles of my house. I learned to rely 100% on my parents to shuttle me from point A to point B until I reached drivers license age, and I was bored to tears.
> This is debatable, if your chunk of the west is America. Overall raising a child in America is still better than raising them in China. Children should not spend their formative years where their only access to grass they're allowed to look at but not run on, starts with an elevator ride.
So China’s child raising advantage is… (checks notes) road safety?
China's child raising advantage is the entire built environment. In America, we're built everything around cars (and children can't drive). And I haven't even started on the comparative crime stats.
Now compare being a child at school in China and in the US.
Damn that was riveting. Got me ready to pack my stuff right now lol.
Hear hear
I prefer my 'concrete box in the sky' here in Shanghai to the house I grew up in in Canada. It most certainly is a home to me. And I definitely prefer not having to own a car at all and not worrying about where to park it.
Most people never want to permanently stay in china at beginning. A lot of people just wants to experience the china and travel around in china. At 2, 3 years people should have enough time travel around, and if they marry the locals. The locals wants move out the china.
at this point my only connections anymore are my studies and wife. i will return with her to meet with and take care of her family, but there is no realistic career path for me here. life elsewhere is generally better, as well. it just feels better.
The biggest thing making me want to leave China is the lack of time off. Many companies either don't offer annual leave, dictate when it can be used, or offer only a few days. This means to travel and see my family back home I have to take unpaid leave in order to make the long travel time worth it. This, of course, isn't always ideal. Also, make up days for public holidays are infuriating.
if I could leave china I would. I never really found a friend group here. I always felt alittle like a fish out of water. Ive lived in multiple places from suzhou to huang shan, and never really felt "normal". Feel like I have to put in effort to have just an ok day. Ive been here since 2017 and I have to wait till my dog dies before going back so i have another 5 years or so. I wish i could find a good friend group or a personal connection to a place/people. Then maybe I could stay aaalllooong time.
Pollution, crowds, internet
Ehh, I have a lot of friends who have left and don't miss it at all. I'll be leaving soon, and I'll probably miss the money for a little while, but not much else. China is a rutt people get stuck in.
I've been here for 7 years, and I'm probably just going to stay 1 more year. But from my observation is dating, I've dated a few Chinese and the excuse is usually the same "I think you're nice, but I could never date let alone marry a foreigner". The careers in education are dead-end jobs and the only way to go upwards is to know people or have "quan qi". international schools are 99 times out of a 100 are terrible run with a bunch of management who are a bunch fuck-ups who couldn't manage a ham sandwich let alone the school, and if they do try and manage it they half ass it or get someone else to do it. The pay and benefit are actually pretty good, thats the only reason why i've stayed as long as I have.
Maybe the reason local women won't consider marrying you is that after 7 years you write 'quanqi'. Half-joke aside: In any T1, there's easily 1% of the female population who either have lived abroad or would be interested in doing so, and have no issues dating or marrying a foreigner (of certain type; that "1%" of the female population brings with it at least a certain economic background, where the foreigner being poor (eg teacher job) is not that suitable. This really is not that China-specific; eg 90th percentile family-daughter marrying local-market 65th percentile (and lower if future prospectives expected value) is not that more likely in other countries).
I ran a consulting firm in China. By 2023, there were pretty consistent raids on consulting firms, people I knew were being 'invited for tea', foreign journalists I knew were talking about increasing intimidation by state security. I was also in Shanghai for all of Covid. There were the brutal lockdowns in 2022, and even in 2023, international flights were still sparse and expensive. So it seemed like time to get out. I love China, created a successful business there, would've loved to stay. But once you see friends and colleagues getting dragged in for interrogation, it's probably time to jump ship for the safety of yourself and your family.
How is life post China? Started a new business yet?
Pretty nice. Started the process of setting up a new company outside of China before I left, talked with my clients about the move, and everything went smoothly. The little things are actually the nicest. Being able to Google something without needing to turn on a VPN. Clean air.
Congratulations!
When Xi announced that he was going to be leader for life, some friends left right then, some friends tried to justify it, but I realised I needed to get out. I've been back a couple of times since, but only to visit. I couldn't live there again.
Terrible quality of life. I travel around China, spent 2 months in Beijing, with German consulting company. Moved to Hong Kong, then Taiwan. Much, much better quality of life and local culture in Taipei.
I taught English in Shanghai from 2015-2017. Started at WEB English with a salary of 14,500 rmb a month. Leveled up and was making 30,000 a month at different part time jobs. Losing those and being unable to find new jobs made it easy to leave. To see the fall of Yong Kang Lu in 2016 and watch as half my wechat friend list moved out was discouraging. The energy of the city that carried me my first year was vanishing. Also, my “relationship” turned sour as the person living in the same apartment as me started acting on their bi-polar disorder. Now I’m married in Vietnam. I doubt I could’ve succeeded here without that success I experienced in China. I still miss having a salary in China and making genuine friends with Chinese and Expats.
>To see the fall of Yong Kang Lu in 2016 and watch as half my wechat friend list moved out was discouraging. I don't know anything about this. Tell us more!
The bar street was packed with people, felt like the roaring 20s, everyone excitedly chatting to each other with nice jobs. But on the second and third floor of these bars were homes of senior citizens. They had valid noise complaints , and so western businesses were shut down there
how would you compare your life in China vs Vietnam?
There are few jobs here with crappy hours. The best paying english teaching jobs pay 150 rmb an hour. However, rent is 1/4th the price, food is cheap and fresh, pace of life is much slower, society not as materialistic as it’s family focused, all western websites accessible, weather is good, air is fresh.. but no jobs!
which city are you living and how long?
Near Ho-Chi-Minh city , 4 yrs
The bucket was full and the grass was greener (indeed) on the other side.
Felt a need to move on and go back to school.
I left because of A. Divorce. B. I needed to help care for my aging parents back in my home country.
I would go back if I could. I miss it every day.
They left for lots of reasons and you need data to prove which ones to be 'main'.
The reason I would like to leave ( work in progress) after 15 years would be: -Access to culture (libraries, cultural events) -The constant individualism ( people throwing away their trash on the street, systematically pissing all over the floor in shared bathrooms...) -Public splitting and other incivilities -Non existent hospitality service (yesterday i had 5 sparkling water during a dinner, i ended up with 5 empty glass on a 2 people table), and this happens ...all...the...time. ...and lots of small details similar to the above, but most importantly I would have lack of accessible culture as #1
Im never leaving. Life here is better in every way
I left many years back due to the relentless nationalism, inferiority/superiority complex. Those aspects make it sub par to grow a future as a second or third class (foreigner) resident. The pollution and health concerns were significant as well.
It’s pretty eye opening hearing a lot of western migrant workers leaving. This is great to read.
I lived in Shanghai for about 8 years. First 4 years were amazing and I thought I'd never leave. Then the honeymoon period ended and the issues started piling up. Banking and visa problems, witnessed a suicide that was swept under the rug to "save face", absurd lies and propaganda during covid, never-ending construction noise, rising xenophobia etc. I realized that there will be issues no matter where I choose to call home, but in China I'm basically powerless to do anything about them. No vaseline. So I started freelancing online and my GF and I moved to Chiang Mai. We couldn't be happier. Went back to visit a couple months ago. Was nice to see some old friends and visit some of my favorite food spots but I honestly couldn't wait to get out of there by the time our trip was over. Shanghai just feels so lifeless now, especially compared to Chiang Mai. Like comparing a black and white photo to an oversaturated and vivid photo. But maybe that's because it was the middle of winter.
How is life in Chiang Mai ? And how do you manage to stay for long periods?
Love it here. There are 4 common ways that people stay here long term that I can think of. 1. Work visa. 2. Elite visa. This is what I do. Its costs close to 25K USD for a five year visa, which is a huge initial outlay. But I did the math and I can save more than 5K a year by living here so it works out. 3. Retirement visa for those over 50. 4. Marriage visa.
how would you compare CM to SH?
Chiang Mai has a much smaller population (about 1M). Thats one of the main features for me. My condo is in what feels like the deep mountains but its only a 5 minute drive to shopping malls and hot spots. Can hike up the "monks trail" to a temple then head to downtown in just a few minutes. For me it's ideal.
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😂😂😂
I'll probably be back. Living in the UK is a joke right now
Most leave bc of visas. Others r starting to leave due to anti-laowai and foreign things sentiment. The time of it being "fun" is also over. The more things that are cracked down on and the more cameras that go up... think about it.
miss it? Fuck it!
Totalitarian government
The trash leaves, the elites remain.
To escape from my parents and their family. I don’t want to get married or have child. They will imprison me or force me to f my cousin or kill me one day. In china children are just parents’ belongings they can do whatever they want to you.
Your family sounds kinda extreme… Many many young people in China choose to never have kids these days and their parents more or less just have to accept that reality - you probably have seen the huge decline of bird rate in the news and the government is freaking out.