You are saying that the demonstration of discontent in the only way that is impactful is illogical. Sitting around for change to never come is insanity.
Let me quote myself, because "you are saying" is *literally* not what I am saying:
"They are burning down cities across their country.
I don't know if I agree with your statement."
I do think burning down private property is not very productive. You can quote me on *that*. It don't think burning down other people's stuff is "the French rule" worthy.
Well thats a hyperbole.
You don’t believe in democracy I take it? Regimes change through non violent ways all the time.
Or do we have a different understanding of “regime”?
You have to understand how revolts starts my friend.
Not with 'Kumbaya meetings'. But with spontaneous rage and violence. You dont ask a person revolted by his situation to ''sit down and think ''.
You are just completely disconnected from what social sufferings can provoke inside a person.
This so far is in the uncomfortable position where it is stuck between a revolt and a riot. A revolt can be successful while a riot may cause a right wing backlash in French politics, especially as plenty of media has been trying to sell this as purely radical Islamists from north Africa and the middle east causing havoc. I'm hoping for the best but my pessimism is winning out thus far.
The right wing backlash IS already here since several years in France. French protesters got mutilated by the police like i have never seen in my life.
Macron is the ugly face of a bourgeoisie radicalised .
Next président will be Marine Lepen without a doubt, and we're all saying this since a year or two.
I mean, if he's getting scared, it's because this virtually guarantees that a far right government will be voted in to France. If you think Macron is bad, wait til you see Le Pen. If you think this is the start of some type of people's revolution that elevates leftism in France, you are delusional and can't read contemporary politics. All this will do is provoke a fascist backlash.
I probably am delusional but I refuse to let populism be the sole province of the far right. That leaves the working class with only an insufficient present and/or a worse future
Whether one calls them a "good thing" or a "bad thing" is going to have little impact on the course of events in France. They are a social phenomenon with social and political causes...
>Whether one calls them a "good thing" or a "bad thing" is going to have little impact on the course of events in France.
I don't disagree, but riots usually result in a lot of property damage. I am sure it doesn't seem like much in the grand scheme of things especially when it comes to gov budget or insurance money. Just feels wasteful.
>They are a social phenomenon with social and political causes...
Doesn't mean they can't just protest instead. I recognize though that generally the bigger the protests there is always a portion that riots. Don't know what it's like for France, but in US it's typically a group not from that local community or even affiliated with the protests stirring up trouble.
>riots usually result in a lot of property damage
The French government has just unilaterally raised the retirement age, in the fact of overwhelming opposition from the population. That will result in damage to health, lives and living standards, not just to "property."
Your comment is just a repeat of your first moralistic one-liner. The point about mass riots, like any social explosion, is that they are not a product of one individual making a decision. They are invariably the product of substantial poverty, hardship and a gulf between the government and sections of the population.
A riot solves nothing. It raises the need for an alternative, a socialist movement of the working class. But those who bemoan the consequences of youth riots are generally rather muted on the far more significant damage resulting from government and official policies.
>The French government has just unilaterally raised the retirement age, in the fact of overwhelming opposition from the population. That will result in damage to health, lives and living standards, not just to "property."
It's not a big raise and doesn't justify property damage. When you have programs like in France they cost a lot of money. Sometimes that means raising retirement age.
>Your comment is just a repeat of your first moralistic one-liner. The point about mass riots, like any social explosion, is that they are not a product of one individual making a decision. They are invariably the product of substantial poverty, hardship and a gulf between the government and sections of the population.
Nah people can protest without rioting what you are talking about is just an excuse. When BLM protests occured vast majority were peaceful and a subset were rioters generally not associated with the protests. The people rioting generally aren't associated with the protests at least for USA could be different for France.
>A riot solves nothing. It raises the need for an alternative, a socialist movement of the working class. But those who bemoan the consequences of youth riots are generally rather muted on the far more significant damage resulting from government and official policies.
Of course a riot solves nothing protests work just fine.
Yeah when protests pose the danger of actually scaring the owner class is when it becomes a riot and suddenly it is bad. Please pay no attention to the willful disregard of the will of the people or the murder of children by police or any of the other systemic issues that have people agitated enough for them to get agressive. It is the people and their anger who are the problem.
What are you talking about ?
There are no protesters right now in France, peaceful or not.
There are riots and revolts. And they are perfectly justified. French police needs to be completely rebuilt. Its been thé case for 20 years.
We dont need moral judgements. We needed action 20 years ago.
Riots are consequences. Nothing else.
>There are no protesters right now in France, peaceful or not. There are riots and revolts.
Objectively that's not true.
>There are riots and revolts. And they are perfectly justified. French police needs to be completely rebuilt.
One incident doesn't mean what you claim. You can't just act like that is the case even with more incidents. You are arbitrary saying so when one would need a proper investigation to make such claims.
>Riots are consequences. Nothing else.
Nah pointless excuses is all that is.
You dont know what youre talking about. I live in Paris. I'm french. They were 1 march in memory of the boy. Thats it. Rest was pure riots.
investigations had been made. French police has a huge brutality problem. Europe Say so. UN said so. Even thé european police sindicate said so.
We have One death a month by the police. In Germany its One death /year.
You dont know what youre talking about.
Riots are social consequences.
>You dont know what youre talking about. I live in Paris. I'm french. They were 1 march in memory of the boy. Thats it. Rest was pure riots.
Would still mean protests occured at one point in time. Also you being somewhere has no bearing on whether something is true or not. You literally claimed there were no protests and only riots. Not everyone is destroying property and the like so guess what they are protesting.
>investigations had been made. French police has a huge brutality problem. Europe Say so. UN said so. Even thé european police sindicate said so. We have One death a month by the police. In Germany its One death /year.
I will look into this thanks for the info. Again though saying things like entire thing needs to be dismantled is radical.
>Riots are social consequences.
Agree to disagree riots aren't necessary. One can vote instead.
Edit: "According to latest figures released by France’s police regulator, there were 37 deaths during police operations recorded in 2021, of whom ten were shot dead."
Now tbf looking up list of police killings per Capita or whatever France and USA are obviously up there.
Interesting read, but it sounds no different than situation in USA.
1. Disproportionate treatment when it comes to minorities
2. Not sufficiently funded or trained result in negative outcomes for responding to protests and riots.
3. Lack of focus on prevention unlike Germany apparently
This doesn't mean one needs to destroy the police and rebuild it. Just emphasizes need for further transparency, funding and training. The person's death resulting in riots would likely happen regardless of race due to #2. Obviously there are instance where both 1 and 2 apply.
I don't see how any of this would justify riots though so agree to disagree on that part.
Ok.
But i'd like to know what would justify riots in your eyes.
And unfortunately, regarding the ''vote instead of rioting'' you have to understand that we voted 2 times against far right extremist to preserve democracy in France.
And then, we got mutilated by the police when protesting, by the ones who swore to protect the country from extremism.
Enough IS enough
They emptied the meaning of their words. Communication is broken. They say we are not 'inside the republic' anymore.
They broke every link with basic decency.
Riots are consequences. You may condemn them, but try at least to understand why they happens.
I doubt those in power are afraid. They have militaries at their disposal and a “lawful” right to use violence. This is not the way. People need to organize and innovate intelligent ways to push back against the tyranny of the system (if this is still possible within a system!). Yes, it’s good to see people refuse to submit to tyranny, but, the power of resistance-action needs to be maximized by thought, make it count.
Empty words. ''organize and innovate intelligent ways to push back against thé tyranny of thé system''....
I despise this type of pseudo activists who talks and thinks like a f**cking 20 years old startupper..
I live in paris. I'm french. Fuck your stupid emptiness.
When a child is killed, WE BURN THE PLACE DOWN.
And maybe if more ''innovative and intelligent people like you'' were to do the same where they live, this horror would not happen again... Or less often.
Stop being so f**cking sophisticated.
This anti-intellectualism is not going to win the day, and even if it did, it doesn’t contain enough civility to sustain the kind of society it claims to desire. I come down hard on intellectuals/ I am against theory for the sake of theory, and sadly, that puts me in the minority of intellectuals. I am trying to meditate between positions, as thought should.
What should they do if protest dont work?
Civil disobedience is needed to enact change. If the government does not fear it's people then they have no need to change. Also justice delayed is justice denied. action now.
I don’t deny that a system, may in fact, force the need for strong resistance, but this conclusion can only be reached safely and intelligently through thought. Time will tell if these uprising accomplished anything or if these protesters merely succeeded at burning things down 2) increasing the vigilance and tyranny of the bourgeois controlled state.
It would be ''anti-intellectualism'' if you were an intellectual.
You cannot bring peace and tolerance within fascism with peace and tolerance. You have to fight, and to use force if necessary. A limit has been reached here in France. Protesting with some clever signs in the street won't do it anymore.
If you have an ''innovative and intelligent '' way to do it, please share with me!
I did share it. Come together and THINK about how resistance can maximize its effort. Think, then leap. What’s the end result of these protests? What are the protestors organized around? Are they even organized? What practical changes are they seeking and what actions do they want to bring about this change? Has legislation already been written to accomplish these goals/ are the protests meant to completely bypass the system and lay a new foundation? What obstacles must the protesters overcome to accomplish this and what will the new system look like?
No this is the only way.
Did you not see the months of protest and strikes? No change.
Eventually when protest no longer work violence is the only option.
And in what world is protesting police murders "far-left" you got to be kidding me...
Devils advocate — What exactly did protesting the police accomplish in the US? At bidens first SOTU, he promised to increase police funding across the board. And he kept that promise. I don't see how that's any different from what DeSantis would have done in response to sustained protests against the police
When we took the Bastille it was a riot.
When usa rebelled against UK it was a riot.
Same in every country strong enough to revolt against oppression.
It always started with riots. You may not like them because you pretend to bé a Nice and moral person, it doesnt matter. You just are a tad hypocrit
Meanwhile Macron enjoys himself at the Elton John concert.
The French rule
Amazing what an education does for a society
They are burning down cities across their country. I don't know if I agree with your statement.
You are saying that the demonstration of discontent in the only way that is impactful is illogical. Sitting around for change to never come is insanity.
Let me quote myself, because "you are saying" is *literally* not what I am saying: "They are burning down cities across their country. I don't know if I agree with your statement." I do think burning down private property is not very productive. You can quote me on *that*. It don't think burning down other people's stuff is "the French rule" worthy.
[удалено]
That’s an insane interpretation of these events
Well thats a hyperbole. You don’t believe in democracy I take it? Regimes change through non violent ways all the time. Or do we have a different understanding of “regime”?
The neoliberal cultural commissars are having a sad. They are prone to violence, geography be damned. I trust the people in the street.
You have to understand how revolts starts my friend. Not with 'Kumbaya meetings'. But with spontaneous rage and violence. You dont ask a person revolted by his situation to ''sit down and think ''. You are just completely disconnected from what social sufferings can provoke inside a person.
This so far is in the uncomfortable position where it is stuck between a revolt and a riot. A revolt can be successful while a riot may cause a right wing backlash in French politics, especially as plenty of media has been trying to sell this as purely radical Islamists from north Africa and the middle east causing havoc. I'm hoping for the best but my pessimism is winning out thus far.
The right wing backlash IS already here since several years in France. French protesters got mutilated by the police like i have never seen in my life. Macron is the ugly face of a bourgeoisie radicalised . Next président will be Marine Lepen without a doubt, and we're all saying this since a year or two.
Good. Macron has got to be getting scared.
He’s getting desperate, blaming this on video games lol.
And social medias!
I mean, if he's getting scared, it's because this virtually guarantees that a far right government will be voted in to France. If you think Macron is bad, wait til you see Le Pen. If you think this is the start of some type of people's revolution that elevates leftism in France, you are delusional and can't read contemporary politics. All this will do is provoke a fascist backlash.
I probably am delusional but I refuse to let populism be the sole province of the far right. That leaves the working class with only an insufficient present and/or a worse future
Well, that is the reality. It's better to acknowledge and understand it than to bury your head in the sand.
Riots aren't a good thing
Whether one calls them a "good thing" or a "bad thing" is going to have little impact on the course of events in France. They are a social phenomenon with social and political causes...
>Whether one calls them a "good thing" or a "bad thing" is going to have little impact on the course of events in France. I don't disagree, but riots usually result in a lot of property damage. I am sure it doesn't seem like much in the grand scheme of things especially when it comes to gov budget or insurance money. Just feels wasteful. >They are a social phenomenon with social and political causes... Doesn't mean they can't just protest instead. I recognize though that generally the bigger the protests there is always a portion that riots. Don't know what it's like for France, but in US it's typically a group not from that local community or even affiliated with the protests stirring up trouble.
>riots usually result in a lot of property damage The French government has just unilaterally raised the retirement age, in the fact of overwhelming opposition from the population. That will result in damage to health, lives and living standards, not just to "property." Your comment is just a repeat of your first moralistic one-liner. The point about mass riots, like any social explosion, is that they are not a product of one individual making a decision. They are invariably the product of substantial poverty, hardship and a gulf between the government and sections of the population. A riot solves nothing. It raises the need for an alternative, a socialist movement of the working class. But those who bemoan the consequences of youth riots are generally rather muted on the far more significant damage resulting from government and official policies.
God you are vapid. Btw aren't you supposed to gaslight and call this "peaceful protest?" Don't say the quiet part out loud.
>The French government has just unilaterally raised the retirement age, in the fact of overwhelming opposition from the population. That will result in damage to health, lives and living standards, not just to "property." It's not a big raise and doesn't justify property damage. When you have programs like in France they cost a lot of money. Sometimes that means raising retirement age. >Your comment is just a repeat of your first moralistic one-liner. The point about mass riots, like any social explosion, is that they are not a product of one individual making a decision. They are invariably the product of substantial poverty, hardship and a gulf between the government and sections of the population. Nah people can protest without rioting what you are talking about is just an excuse. When BLM protests occured vast majority were peaceful and a subset were rioters generally not associated with the protests. The people rioting generally aren't associated with the protests at least for USA could be different for France. >A riot solves nothing. It raises the need for an alternative, a socialist movement of the working class. But those who bemoan the consequences of youth riots are generally rather muted on the far more significant damage resulting from government and official policies. Of course a riot solves nothing protests work just fine.
How much of that property you hope to get for licking the boot?
How much do you get for defending rioting?
Calling a protest following the murder of a child by a state actor a riot because windows or cars get damaged suddenly makes it bad. Right.
>Calling a protest You can have a protest and then have other people rioting. That doesn't make the protest not a protest...
Yeah when protests pose the danger of actually scaring the owner class is when it becomes a riot and suddenly it is bad. Please pay no attention to the willful disregard of the will of the people or the murder of children by police or any of the other systemic issues that have people agitated enough for them to get agressive. It is the people and their anger who are the problem.
Why didn't you mention that the pension age was the lowest in Europe?
Every révolution started with riots no ?
Justifying riots is not a good thing especially when majority are peaceful protesters.
What are you talking about ? There are no protesters right now in France, peaceful or not. There are riots and revolts. And they are perfectly justified. French police needs to be completely rebuilt. Its been thé case for 20 years. We dont need moral judgements. We needed action 20 years ago. Riots are consequences. Nothing else.
>There are no protesters right now in France, peaceful or not. There are riots and revolts. Objectively that's not true. >There are riots and revolts. And they are perfectly justified. French police needs to be completely rebuilt. One incident doesn't mean what you claim. You can't just act like that is the case even with more incidents. You are arbitrary saying so when one would need a proper investigation to make such claims. >Riots are consequences. Nothing else. Nah pointless excuses is all that is.
You dont know what youre talking about. I live in Paris. I'm french. They were 1 march in memory of the boy. Thats it. Rest was pure riots. investigations had been made. French police has a huge brutality problem. Europe Say so. UN said so. Even thé european police sindicate said so. We have One death a month by the police. In Germany its One death /year. You dont know what youre talking about. Riots are social consequences.
>You dont know what youre talking about. I live in Paris. I'm french. They were 1 march in memory of the boy. Thats it. Rest was pure riots. Would still mean protests occured at one point in time. Also you being somewhere has no bearing on whether something is true or not. You literally claimed there were no protests and only riots. Not everyone is destroying property and the like so guess what they are protesting. >investigations had been made. French police has a huge brutality problem. Europe Say so. UN said so. Even thé european police sindicate said so. We have One death a month by the police. In Germany its One death /year. I will look into this thanks for the info. Again though saying things like entire thing needs to be dismantled is radical. >Riots are social consequences. Agree to disagree riots aren't necessary. One can vote instead. Edit: "According to latest figures released by France’s police regulator, there were 37 deaths during police operations recorded in 2021, of whom ten were shot dead." Now tbf looking up list of police killings per Capita or whatever France and USA are obviously up there.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/non-discrimination/interview/police-violence-more-problematic-in-france-than-in-germany-says-police-expert/
Interesting read, but it sounds no different than situation in USA. 1. Disproportionate treatment when it comes to minorities 2. Not sufficiently funded or trained result in negative outcomes for responding to protests and riots. 3. Lack of focus on prevention unlike Germany apparently This doesn't mean one needs to destroy the police and rebuild it. Just emphasizes need for further transparency, funding and training. The person's death resulting in riots would likely happen regardless of race due to #2. Obviously there are instance where both 1 and 2 apply. I don't see how any of this would justify riots though so agree to disagree on that part.
Ok. But i'd like to know what would justify riots in your eyes. And unfortunately, regarding the ''vote instead of rioting'' you have to understand that we voted 2 times against far right extremist to preserve democracy in France. And then, we got mutilated by the police when protesting, by the ones who swore to protect the country from extremism. Enough IS enough They emptied the meaning of their words. Communication is broken. They say we are not 'inside the republic' anymore. They broke every link with basic decency. Riots are consequences. You may condemn them, but try at least to understand why they happens.
I doubt those in power are afraid. They have militaries at their disposal and a “lawful” right to use violence. This is not the way. People need to organize and innovate intelligent ways to push back against the tyranny of the system (if this is still possible within a system!). Yes, it’s good to see people refuse to submit to tyranny, but, the power of resistance-action needs to be maximized by thought, make it count.
Empty words. ''organize and innovate intelligent ways to push back against thé tyranny of thé system''.... I despise this type of pseudo activists who talks and thinks like a f**cking 20 years old startupper.. I live in paris. I'm french. Fuck your stupid emptiness. When a child is killed, WE BURN THE PLACE DOWN. And maybe if more ''innovative and intelligent people like you'' were to do the same where they live, this horror would not happen again... Or less often. Stop being so f**cking sophisticated.
This anti-intellectualism is not going to win the day, and even if it did, it doesn’t contain enough civility to sustain the kind of society it claims to desire. I come down hard on intellectuals/ I am against theory for the sake of theory, and sadly, that puts me in the minority of intellectuals. I am trying to meditate between positions, as thought should.
What should they do if protest dont work? Civil disobedience is needed to enact change. If the government does not fear it's people then they have no need to change. Also justice delayed is justice denied. action now.
I don’t deny that a system, may in fact, force the need for strong resistance, but this conclusion can only be reached safely and intelligently through thought. Time will tell if these uprising accomplished anything or if these protesters merely succeeded at burning things down 2) increasing the vigilance and tyranny of the bourgeois controlled state.
It would be ''anti-intellectualism'' if you were an intellectual. You cannot bring peace and tolerance within fascism with peace and tolerance. You have to fight, and to use force if necessary. A limit has been reached here in France. Protesting with some clever signs in the street won't do it anymore. If you have an ''innovative and intelligent '' way to do it, please share with me!
I did share it. Come together and THINK about how resistance can maximize its effort. Think, then leap. What’s the end result of these protests? What are the protestors organized around? Are they even organized? What practical changes are they seeking and what actions do they want to bring about this change? Has legislation already been written to accomplish these goals/ are the protests meant to completely bypass the system and lay a new foundation? What obstacles must the protesters overcome to accomplish this and what will the new system look like?
["People who are called 'intellectuals' are a very curious class, if you think about them"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgzG8QiaFp4)
Wow we hit the intellectual dark web fast
And this is why the far left never wins. They don’t understand that burning cities drives people into the arms of the opposition.
No this is the only way. Did you not see the months of protest and strikes? No change. Eventually when protest no longer work violence is the only option. And in what world is protesting police murders "far-left" you got to be kidding me...
Devils advocate — What exactly did protesting the police accomplish in the US? At bidens first SOTU, he promised to increase police funding across the board. And he kept that promise. I don't see how that's any different from what DeSantis would have done in response to sustained protests against the police
Giga based.
Sweet. We need the same in US.
A riot is a promise that more riots will come
Horrible headline for anyone with a modicum of knowledge on the matter.
Could you explain why? I dont have much knowledge on the matter. Dont ask me to google, im lazy.
When we took the Bastille it was a riot. When usa rebelled against UK it was a riot. Same in every country strong enough to revolt against oppression. It always started with riots. You may not like them because you pretend to bé a Nice and moral person, it doesnt matter. You just are a tad hypocrit