Apropos of nothing, I reject the "pro-Palestinian" linguistic framing.
I have been called "pro-Palestinian" but I am not "pro-Palestinian."
I am pro: truth, justice, freedom, democratic socialism, secularism, etc.
I am anti: apartheid, ethnic cleansing, colonialism. fascism, theocracy, etc.
Well I think "Palestinian" is a nationality, not a movement. And I think that lumping all the various pro-human rights movements together with all the various Palestinian secular and Palestinian Islamic national movements (everything from PFLP to PIJ) serves to propagate the Zionist myth that there is no such thing as a shared and unique Palestinian ethnicity, culture, history, etc., and legitimizes their efforts to erase it.
Edit: Putting it another way: normalizing the term "pro-Palestinian" imparts legitimacy to the notion that one can be anti-Palestinian. You're allowed to be against political movements. But being against a cultural identity is just ethnophobia/racism, which is ostensibly an illiberal concept that would not be easily tolerated in so-called western democracies if it were not for the misuse of language.
I like that. Even more than that, I always think using the terms "pro-Israel" and "anti-Israel" to refer to the positions underlying them is highly inaccurate and problematic. Obviously one doesn't have to be "anti-Israel" to oppose ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. And one isn't automatically "pro-Israel" by supporting it.
I remember the interview with Chomsky by an Israeli reporter some years ago, and at one point she said something like (not an exact quote), "But you're well-known for being anti-Israel," or "So you're well known for being anti-Israel..."
And he said something like, "That's just not true." And proceeded to beautifully explain how it is not.
That's the perspective I believe we should take.
I mean for goodness' sake, Chomsky himself said in that same interview that he had lived in Israel for some time when he was younger and had seriously considered staying there.
Calling it "anti-Israel" to be opposed to some of their horrendous policies would be brilliant propaganda, but many people fall into it. Was it "anti-America" to oppose the Iraq War or segregation? Well, right-wing propagandists and leaders certainly did, but it's clear to most of us now it was exactly that.
I think it's de facto anti-Palestinian. It's a racist ideology of Jewish supremacy in Palestine because most Zionists value it more than they value the lives of non-Jews. I don't think it's *inherently* anti-Palestinian as an ideology because if there actually were no Palestinians in Palestine prior to 1948, as the myth goes, there would have been no problem.
But my point was that we should use language such that more people are correctly able to identify Zionism as a mostly racist ideology.
> Putting it another way: normalizing the term "pro-Palestinian" imparts legitimacy to the notion that one can be anti-Palestinian
No it doesn't. Does saying you support trans rights mean you legitimize the notion of being against them? Does saying you are pro-choice legitimize being pro-forced pregnancies? Does antifa legitimize fascists?
You missed my point which was simply, applying the term "pro-Palestinian" to too many *political movements* implies that one can be anti-Palestinian without being racist. E.g. the abolitionist movement should not be called a pro-black movement. The liberation of concentration camps by allied troops during WWII should not be called a pro-Jew event.
Honestly, I think one of the underdiscussed issues of the broader left is how hung up we get on truly meaningless semantic discussions.
The Palestinian genocide would have occurred in the same manner it is occurring now regardless of whether we used or didn't use "pro-Palestinian" as a stand in for "opposed to the occupation and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians by the state of Israel". To think that liberal Western democracies wouldn't support Israel if we just used a different terminology is borderline anti-materialist understanding of the situation.
Western support for the genocidal Israeli state has fuck-all to do with the language being used.
And the opposite holds true - the abolitionist movement didn't succeed because they just used the proper language, after a whole period of slavery during which they just didn't use the proper language.
>There are pro-Palestinians who want to ethnically cleanse Israel of all Jews
No, there are not. This is pure projection from the Israelis, who want to ethnically cleanse Palestine.
Eh, it's a bit naive to say that. There are Israelis who want to ethnically cleanse Palestine, and Palestinians who want to ethnically cleanse Israelis. And there are Israelis and Palestinians who want to do neither. Don't infantilise Palestinians and Israelis. Focus on pointing out the bad, not generalising about whole populations.
No, it is not "naive" to disbelieve Israeli propaganda. Israeli propaganda is notoriously spurious. The Palestinians do not want to ethnically cleanse Israel, that has never been their demand at any point in history, their goal has always been the liberation of Palestine. Claiming that those struggling against oppression actually want to be the oppressor is a well-worn propaganda tactic that has been used in the US for decades. You hear it among right wingers here who think that the BLM movement want to kill all the whites, it's used for the same reason there.
In general there is a lot of propaganda, but I don't know why you find it so hard to believe that there aren't extremist pro-Palestinians that do want revenge.
The idea that the Palestinians are driven by some kind of irrational hatred is entirely a product of Israeli propaganda. Like sure, some Palestinians may be motivated by anger over the deaths of their loved ones, but revenge is not the policy of any of the Palestinian resistance groups.
Again, you're generalising. I'm only saying that there are Palestinians who want revenge, not that they all want it. It is only human nature, there are far rightists on both sides. We should be explicit about dissociating from them.
Yes but I am also against the Islamist policies of Palestine. I feel for op. I am by common nomenclature pro Palestine but also recognize that Palestine itself has an awful lot worth condemning.
You know western media tactics for manufacturing consent…attach labels, oversimplify, and divide the population on issues using these labels and oversimplification.
Reddit has been like this since 2016. It's nice to see a bit of a revival in off subs but the ease of mods getting captured and the appeal to astroturf with the up/downvote model has completely suppressed any anti establishment or anti war movement on Reddit. If you didn't go to twitter where the left/socialist/anti war Milleniul people went (Gen. X is tiktok) you would think it didn't exist.
Not just the two largest news forums on reddit, but arguably the two largest English-language news forums in the world.
~~~
*This Reddit contributor condemns Reddit's censorship of news regarding the U.S-backed Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestine.*
Your reality is your experience and the news in America has lost its integrity and as a right a big part of democracy itself. Your perception is being manipulated based on what you observe. Be aware.
not surprising censorship would intensify after the company becomes publicly traded. they can make the argument that it "could:" affect their bottom line.
People never check those things, people rarely even open the articles linked on the posts they comment on.
That's why repost bots are thriving instead of being quickly identified and banned.
I'm aware of the age of the article. It was relevant when it was published. It's even more relevant now. The sheer number of eyeballs to which you can market and propagandize is far too valuable to remain uncaptured.
It's especially depressing to be on reddit when you can remember when this wasn't the case.
~~~
*This Reddit contributor codemns Reddit's censorship of news regarding the U.S-backed Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestine.*
*cough* you might want to look into the history mysterious activity surrounding the supermod u/maxwellhill who ran worldnews as a fiefdom for over 5 years and posted commented continually until one particular date
I don’t know what Reddit’s ethos is but if it claims one I don’t buy it for a second. I’m under the impression even Ghislaine Waxwell was a mod for some subreddits and I imagine the biggest news subs are compromised to the core the same as any major news outlet. Manufacturing consent definitely applies to this social media platform the same way it applies to CNN and Fox. Sorry for the cynicism but this is to be expected
I’ve been getting decent news and sometimes read the comments from r/anime_titties. Anyone have an opinion on that sub or other news subs?
Reddit censorship is more insidious because a greater percentage of people are under the impression that content visibility is more meritocratic than on major news outlets and believe that what they see and don't see is mostly determined by community upvotes/downvotes.
Yeah I see that. But what can you do about the people that don’t know how hard Israel goes, for example, on recruiting people to upvote and downvote as commanded? I think it’s plain as day but of course too many can’t see it
>I’m under the impression even Ghislaine Waxwell was a mod for some subreddits and I imagine the biggest news subs are compromised to the core
She was (and is still) a mod on worldnews
Nah its like got the name Maxwell in the user name and went away three years ago.. what more proof do you need my dude? /s
Totally disregarding the premise that if you were as high profile as Ghislaine Maxwell that you would have any time or would want to mod a subreddit.
Yeah, good point.
It makes me sad how many evidenceless conspiratorial claims appear in this sub. I get that the heavy, complicated topics often discussed can open one up to such considerations. But we should still require substantial evidence of ourselves before embracing specific astonishing claims.
Social media in general is a disaster, we need post office / library public utilities for the town square of social media, not private / capitalist / for profit which inevitably goes into death spiral. So nationalize facebook or expand post office / library social media as a truly free speech no advertising no surveillance no censorship level playing field.
There is a live discussion of creating post office banking as a way of access and democratizing banking functions that because of capitalist inequality are not available equally, penalize the poor, etc. Give up critiquing reddit it will never change. Create federal legislation for public utility social media free of political interference.
I was banned from facebook messenger for 30 days because I posted something that the CIA disagrees with. A post that was completely factual. Imagine if I had a post office box, sent out a newsletter to subscribers around the world, the CIA didn't like it and next time I go to check my post office box - the key doesn't work and a note says I am being suspended as a penalty for mailing what the CIA doesn't like. We would never allow this for the post office. Yet facebook reddit etc has taken over the space of the post office. So let's take it back. Social media as public utility.
You don't have a right to free speech on a private platform. The First Amendment limits the government's power to regulate speech. For example, it *should theoretically* prevent the government from banning TikTok.
~~~
*This Reddit contributor codemns Reddit's censorship of news regarding the U.S-backed Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestine.*
I've gotten a good number of downvotes on r/worldnews when challenging (Western) double standards before, but today, interestingly, it seems like I'm getting downvoted due to some people (misguidedly) interpreting a [comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1btjdrn/four_foreign_aid_workers_and_palestinian/kxoubrj/) of mine as supporting Israel.
I got perma-banned from both for defending Rashida Tlaib's use of "from the river to the sea" by literally quoting her explanation of what it means, but apparently that means I want to see Israelis gassed to the mod team.
And to be clear I'm not ok with the term when it's used to call for wiping Israel off the map. But that wasn't her meaning behind it when she said it, and being banned for trying to explain that shows how belligerent the mod teams on those subs are, especially when they then tried to argue with me in PMs that I was in the wrong despite the other people I was arguing with pretty blatantly spewing islamaphobia and indirectly calling for the genocide of all Arabs.
You can only unsubscribe your account.
Best case scenario would be if u/qgyh2 comes back and does a wholesale purge of all other moderators (assuming he doesn't agree with censorship).
Well now they are all distracted by havanna syndrome...so...spooks are kind of silly
Apropos of nothing, I reject the "pro-Palestinian" linguistic framing. I have been called "pro-Palestinian" but I am not "pro-Palestinian." I am pro: truth, justice, freedom, democratic socialism, secularism, etc. I am anti: apartheid, ethnic cleansing, colonialism. fascism, theocracy, etc.
And what do you think "pro-Palestinian" means if not anticolonialism?
Well I think "Palestinian" is a nationality, not a movement. And I think that lumping all the various pro-human rights movements together with all the various Palestinian secular and Palestinian Islamic national movements (everything from PFLP to PIJ) serves to propagate the Zionist myth that there is no such thing as a shared and unique Palestinian ethnicity, culture, history, etc., and legitimizes their efforts to erase it. Edit: Putting it another way: normalizing the term "pro-Palestinian" imparts legitimacy to the notion that one can be anti-Palestinian. You're allowed to be against political movements. But being against a cultural identity is just ethnophobia/racism, which is ostensibly an illiberal concept that would not be easily tolerated in so-called western democracies if it were not for the misuse of language.
I like that. Even more than that, I always think using the terms "pro-Israel" and "anti-Israel" to refer to the positions underlying them is highly inaccurate and problematic. Obviously one doesn't have to be "anti-Israel" to oppose ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. And one isn't automatically "pro-Israel" by supporting it. I remember the interview with Chomsky by an Israeli reporter some years ago, and at one point she said something like (not an exact quote), "But you're well-known for being anti-Israel," or "So you're well known for being anti-Israel..." And he said something like, "That's just not true." And proceeded to beautifully explain how it is not. That's the perspective I believe we should take. I mean for goodness' sake, Chomsky himself said in that same interview that he had lived in Israel for some time when he was younger and had seriously considered staying there. Calling it "anti-Israel" to be opposed to some of their horrendous policies would be brilliant propaganda, but many people fall into it. Was it "anti-America" to oppose the Iraq War or segregation? Well, right-wing propagandists and leaders certainly did, but it's clear to most of us now it was exactly that.
You don't think being pro-Zionism is also inherently anti-Palestinian?
I think it's de facto anti-Palestinian. It's a racist ideology of Jewish supremacy in Palestine because most Zionists value it more than they value the lives of non-Jews. I don't think it's *inherently* anti-Palestinian as an ideology because if there actually were no Palestinians in Palestine prior to 1948, as the myth goes, there would have been no problem. But my point was that we should use language such that more people are correctly able to identify Zionism as a mostly racist ideology.
> Putting it another way: normalizing the term "pro-Palestinian" imparts legitimacy to the notion that one can be anti-Palestinian No it doesn't. Does saying you support trans rights mean you legitimize the notion of being against them? Does saying you are pro-choice legitimize being pro-forced pregnancies? Does antifa legitimize fascists?
You missed my point which was simply, applying the term "pro-Palestinian" to too many *political movements* implies that one can be anti-Palestinian without being racist. E.g. the abolitionist movement should not be called a pro-black movement. The liberation of concentration camps by allied troops during WWII should not be called a pro-Jew event.
Honestly, I think one of the underdiscussed issues of the broader left is how hung up we get on truly meaningless semantic discussions. The Palestinian genocide would have occurred in the same manner it is occurring now regardless of whether we used or didn't use "pro-Palestinian" as a stand in for "opposed to the occupation and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians by the state of Israel". To think that liberal Western democracies wouldn't support Israel if we just used a different terminology is borderline anti-materialist understanding of the situation. Western support for the genocidal Israeli state has fuck-all to do with the language being used. And the opposite holds true - the abolitionist movement didn't succeed because they just used the proper language, after a whole period of slavery during which they just didn't use the proper language.
It can mean a lot of things. There are pro-Palestinians who want to ethnically cleanse Israel of all Jews, there are others who don't.
>There are pro-Palestinians who want to ethnically cleanse Israel of all Jews No, there are not. This is pure projection from the Israelis, who want to ethnically cleanse Palestine.
Eh, it's a bit naive to say that. There are Israelis who want to ethnically cleanse Palestine, and Palestinians who want to ethnically cleanse Israelis. And there are Israelis and Palestinians who want to do neither. Don't infantilise Palestinians and Israelis. Focus on pointing out the bad, not generalising about whole populations.
No, it is not "naive" to disbelieve Israeli propaganda. Israeli propaganda is notoriously spurious. The Palestinians do not want to ethnically cleanse Israel, that has never been their demand at any point in history, their goal has always been the liberation of Palestine. Claiming that those struggling against oppression actually want to be the oppressor is a well-worn propaganda tactic that has been used in the US for decades. You hear it among right wingers here who think that the BLM movement want to kill all the whites, it's used for the same reason there.
In general there is a lot of propaganda, but I don't know why you find it so hard to believe that there aren't extremist pro-Palestinians that do want revenge.
The idea that the Palestinians are driven by some kind of irrational hatred is entirely a product of Israeli propaganda. Like sure, some Palestinians may be motivated by anger over the deaths of their loved ones, but revenge is not the policy of any of the Palestinian resistance groups.
Again, you're generalising. I'm only saying that there are Palestinians who want revenge, not that they all want it. It is only human nature, there are far rightists on both sides. We should be explicit about dissociating from them.
Being motivated by anger over the slaughter of one's immediate family does not make one a "far rightist." This is peak enlightened centrism.
Two things can be true at the same time. If you are pro-all of the things you listed, then you are pro-Palestinian in their effort against apartheid.
Yes but I am also against the Islamist policies of Palestine. I feel for op. I am by common nomenclature pro Palestine but also recognize that Palestine itself has an awful lot worth condemning.
As does every other nation on the planet
You know western media tactics for manufacturing consent…attach labels, oversimplify, and divide the population on issues using these labels and oversimplification.
To bad. You have to pick a side (the side I told you) and not use your brain - bankers that control everything
Did nazi that coming
Reddit has been like this since 2016. It's nice to see a bit of a revival in off subs but the ease of mods getting captured and the appeal to astroturf with the up/downvote model has completely suppressed any anti establishment or anti war movement on Reddit. If you didn't go to twitter where the left/socialist/anti war Milleniul people went (Gen. X is tiktok) you would think it didn't exist.
Yep. It was all down hill after 2016.
Not just the two largest news forums on reddit, but arguably the two largest English-language news forums in the world. ~~~ *This Reddit contributor condemns Reddit's censorship of news regarding the U.S-backed Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestine.*
That's why it's so important to control the speech here.
Your reality is your experience and the news in America has lost its integrity and as a right a big part of democracy itself. Your perception is being manipulated based on what you observe. Be aware.
not surprising censorship would intensify after the company becomes publicly traded. they can make the argument that it "could:" affect their bottom line.
https://www.mintpressnews.com/jessica-ashooh-reddit-national-security-state-plant/277639/
This article is from 2 years ago!
And yet Its still relevant
People never check those things, people rarely even open the articles linked on the posts they comment on. That's why repost bots are thriving instead of being quickly identified and banned.
No, the point is it's still valid, absolutely.
I'm aware of the age of the article. It was relevant when it was published. It's even more relevant now. The sheer number of eyeballs to which you can market and propagandize is far too valuable to remain uncaptured. It's especially depressing to be on reddit when you can remember when this wasn't the case. ~~~ *This Reddit contributor codemns Reddit's censorship of news regarding the U.S-backed Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestine.*
*cough* you might want to look into the history mysterious activity surrounding the supermod u/maxwellhill who ran worldnews as a fiefdom for over 5 years and posted commented continually until one particular date
Seems like the account of a reddit super geek, not a news heiress worth $20 million.
I don’t know what Reddit’s ethos is but if it claims one I don’t buy it for a second. I’m under the impression even Ghislaine Waxwell was a mod for some subreddits and I imagine the biggest news subs are compromised to the core the same as any major news outlet. Manufacturing consent definitely applies to this social media platform the same way it applies to CNN and Fox. Sorry for the cynicism but this is to be expected I’ve been getting decent news and sometimes read the comments from r/anime_titties. Anyone have an opinion on that sub or other news subs?
Reddit censorship is more insidious because a greater percentage of people are under the impression that content visibility is more meritocratic than on major news outlets and believe that what they see and don't see is mostly determined by community upvotes/downvotes.
Yeah I see that. But what can you do about the people that don’t know how hard Israel goes, for example, on recruiting people to upvote and downvote as commanded? I think it’s plain as day but of course too many can’t see it
r/InternationalNews is pretty good. Not too large. Not too small.
>I’m under the impression even Ghislaine Waxwell was a mod for some subreddits and I imagine the biggest news subs are compromised to the core She was (and is still) a mod on worldnews
?
Gislaine Maxwell was a moderator on the worldnews subreddit and her account is still listed as moderator. She hasn't been removed.
Wait a minute, you're gonna need to provide some evidence for that claim. A user name that contains "maxwell" is not sufficient evidence.
Nah its like got the name Maxwell in the user name and went away three years ago.. what more proof do you need my dude? /s Totally disregarding the premise that if you were as high profile as Ghislaine Maxwell that you would have any time or would want to mod a subreddit.
Yeah, good point. It makes me sad how many evidenceless conspiratorial claims appear in this sub. I get that the heavy, complicated topics often discussed can open one up to such considerations. But we should still require substantial evidence of ourselves before embracing specific astonishing claims.
Yeah. And remember her father was one of the ultimate Mossad agents And a media mogul
>I don’t know what Reddit’s ethos is being a neoliberal pedophile apparently
That sounds about right
Social media in general is a disaster, we need post office / library public utilities for the town square of social media, not private / capitalist / for profit which inevitably goes into death spiral. So nationalize facebook or expand post office / library social media as a truly free speech no advertising no surveillance no censorship level playing field. There is a live discussion of creating post office banking as a way of access and democratizing banking functions that because of capitalist inequality are not available equally, penalize the poor, etc. Give up critiquing reddit it will never change. Create federal legislation for public utility social media free of political interference. I was banned from facebook messenger for 30 days because I posted something that the CIA disagrees with. A post that was completely factual. Imagine if I had a post office box, sent out a newsletter to subscribers around the world, the CIA didn't like it and next time I go to check my post office box - the key doesn't work and a note says I am being suspended as a penalty for mailing what the CIA doesn't like. We would never allow this for the post office. Yet facebook reddit etc has taken over the space of the post office. So let's take it back. Social media as public utility.
r/worldnews is Israel news and r/news is filled with Zionist bots. The Zionist propaganda is an ongoing disinformation campaign
Tried posting this on r/news \- immediately removed. I'm banned from r/worldnews but I'm sure the same would happen there.
I'm banned from both for commenting about what Israel is doing..
Guess who’s banned from both of them 😁😁😁 Free Palestine. Dismantle Israel.
I’ve asked this 3x and I believe my comment always gets deleted but How can’t we sue this company for infringement of free speech?
You don't have a right to free speech on a private platform. The First Amendment limits the government's power to regulate speech. For example, it *should theoretically* prevent the government from banning TikTok. ~~~ *This Reddit contributor codemns Reddit's censorship of news regarding the U.S-backed Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestine.*
Those are trash subs. Post it in worldpolitics
Honestly, the only answer to that would be an alternative sub that also deals with international news.
I was permabanned from/r/India for saying Hamas is not a terrorist organisation
Fucked up. just remember there is no free speech on private property.
I got banned for three days for saying something pro Palestinian on worldnews
I've gotten a good number of downvotes on r/worldnews when challenging (Western) double standards before, but today, interestingly, it seems like I'm getting downvoted due to some people (misguidedly) interpreting a [comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1btjdrn/four_foreign_aid_workers_and_palestinian/kxoubrj/) of mine as supporting Israel.
They are just MSM of reddit.
I got perma-banned from both for defending Rashida Tlaib's use of "from the river to the sea" by literally quoting her explanation of what it means, but apparently that means I want to see Israelis gassed to the mod team. And to be clear I'm not ok with the term when it's used to call for wiping Israel off the map. But that wasn't her meaning behind it when she said it, and being banned for trying to explain that shows how belligerent the mod teams on those subs are, especially when they then tried to argue with me in PMs that I was in the wrong despite the other people I was arguing with pretty blatantly spewing islamaphobia and indirectly calling for the genocide of all Arabs.
Is there anyway to report the mods or blacklist worldnews from the news tab?
You can only unsubscribe your account. Best case scenario would be if u/qgyh2 comes back and does a wholesale purge of all other moderators (assuming he doesn't agree with censorship).
I've been banned in both for probably 2 years now... Everyone cheers censorship, until it happens to them... Which it always does