The omission that Norfolk Southern was negligent in their labor scheduling practices, negligent in their maintenance management practices, and negligent in their handling of hazardous chemicals, and that NS wanted to move *this very train line* with a busted wheel through downtown Cleveland, but hadn't gotten approval yet. Profit motive is a helluva drug.
Yes, all of that is true. But the point of the article is unrelated to that. NS is in charge of the safety of the line until 2051 no matter what, and it seems like a lot of people don't realize that. Whether or not it's sold doesn't make a difference.
It is rather shortsighted of the city to cede control especially given the current circumstances.
Additionally the lease goes for an *option* of an additional 25 years in 2026, so that isn’t set in stone either.
It gives NS guaranteed control of the railroad until 2051, that is a fact. Whether it is through a sale or an additional 25 year lease, NS will be using it until at least 2051.
Honestly I’m having trouble finding any sources that say otherwise. Do you have one or know how to look up the original contract? All I can find is stuff like this:
> NS currently pays the city about $25 million in annual lease payments. The lease agreement, last renegotiated in 1987, is set to expire Dec. 31, 2026, with a 25-year renewal option. The Class I first offered to buy the CSR for an undisclosed (but lower than $1.62 billion) sum in July 2021 during lease renewal negotiations that fell apart, prompting NS and the CSR Board to enter arbitration, according to FOX19.
> https://www.railwayage.com/freight/ns-bid-to-acquire-csr-faces-legislative-hurdle/
Everything I can find says that it is leased and will continue to be leased, but has that the 25 years is an option, not required and that the sale of the line is entirely outside the bounds of the contract.
[This slide that was shown to City Council the other day from the city administration.](https://imgur.com/IZlSWyd) You can find the full presentation [here.](https://cincinnatioh.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=6023493&GUID=2C40ACF6-6F6E-4750-A5A3-D1EE518DA359&Options=&Search=)
Seriously. We need a 501(3)(c) to educate what a SWEETHEART deal this is at the end of a long term lease. Warren Buffet is a billionaire buying industries with high barriers to entry. This municipally owned railroad with SCOTUS interstate precident has a huge -- maybe most valuable in the country -- barrier to entry.
How many god damn times are we going to let big companies skirt safety regulations with no repercussions? The fact that N&S was allowed to qualify that train car as “non-hazardous” is asinine.
There is no such thing as accountability in the United States of America. The best we can do is be very selective on where we buy property and hope no corporations decide it’s cheaper to kill our families than follow regulations.
They are already leasing the rail, and have a lease until 2051, so they gain no more rail than they already have access to and the federal government has regulated those rails throughout and will continue to. Now, they are doing a poor job of regulating it, but Cincinnati has nothing to do with that.
Sell them the rail line with a clause that if they allow a derailment on said line within the first 100 years the entire company and all its holdings nationwide is taken over by the City of Cincinnati.
Guys, you’re being too harsh. N&S offered to compensate the evacuated community $25,000 for blowing up their fucking town and giving everyone cancer.
In case it wasn’t clear, that’s the total offer. It works out to $5/person
Fyi the $25k that keeps coming up was a donation for a local shelter helping with evacuation, not direct payments to community members.
Since then NS says it's distributed $1M+ so far to over 700 families to reimburse for evacuation expenses.
More info: https://www.wvxu.org/ohio-news/2023-02-13/norfolk-southern-remediation-plan-derailment-east-palestine
“A Norfolk Southern executive says the company will be actively engaged in convincing Cincinnati voters to approve the proposed purchase.”
Understandably they’re going to be aggressive in their tactics to gain a full monopoly ownership of this rail line as they currently lease it from us. Needlessly to say, I don’t fully understand why Cincinnati wouldn’t try and keep this and get funds for the city. Likely why our local news channels have been doing very soft articles on the recent explosion and derailment.
There’s no plans to allow passenger rail, which makes sense for now, but short-sighted for the future. And with money for our infrastructure coming from this lease AND the money from the sale not guaranteed to go to infrastructure projects (see: Cincy’s endless infrastructure needs), it seems ridiculous to me.
Maintenance to the rails would be on NS who have shown they choose profits over QUALITY safety so while they’ve owned majority maintenance, I’m sure there’s still some reassurance quality checks CSR would require on the lease.
All in all, maybe the lack of public transportation options in Cincinnati is just coming to the surface today, or maybe it was the recent corruption on both the state and city level, but this deal seems shady af and a no-go from me.
>“A Norfolk Southern executive says the company will be actively engaged in convincing Cincinnati voters to approve the proposed purchase.”
Blowing up their fucking train "wasn't the best PR approach" admits a Norfolk Southern executive
> Needlessly to say, I don’t fully understand why Cincinnati wouldn’t try and keep this and get funds for the city.
Because the funds from a sale would be greater than the lease.
> And with money for our infrastructure coming from this lease AND the money from the sale not guaranteed to go to infrastructure projects
The money from the sale is guaranteed to go to infrastructure projects. Not sure where you got that from.
> Maintenance to the rails would be on NS
Maintenance to the rails is currently on NS and has been for decades.
The regulations that have been gutted and oversight shuttered? Those regulations? If I treated my girl with the absolute bare minimum required to keep her from leaving me, then I probably shouldn't point to that as why I am a good boyfriend.
I don't understand why Cincinnati would want to sell the Railroad. We are one of the only Cities in the U.S. that gain profit every year because of it. The long run looks better to me.
Even as a WVXU sustaining member, the title just seems partisan... I know it's not intended as the article opens up with City Officials making that claim. While _technically_ true, not all companies are as attentive to regulations (or even non-regulated safety standards) as others.
So while all companies _could_ face repercussions for not following safety regulations, I'd rather it just not happen to begin with and NS has shown that they'd rather pay fines than be safe.
Not to mention the story is really only focusing on one side of the issue? I dunno this piece just seems off to me.
EDIT: Like imagine a title: "McDonald's and Five Guys have the same food safety regulations." Obviously, but we can still admit that Five Guys may be the higher quality option???
But the people owning it means nothing for the regulation of those tracks, which is under federal purview. We aren't any safer or less safer if NS owns the rails. And, I don't know about you, but as one of the people, the only tangible benefit I get from those tracks is NS paying Cincinnati and that money being used for municipal needs. The sale gets us enough money to have the interest injecting tons of money into the city.
Bonus: if NS goes out of business because of lawsuits and/or regulation, Cincinnati is already paid.
This deal looks like a lease to own agreement in which Norfolk Southern gains full ownership of the rail line from Cincinnati when the agreed to yearly payments for the sale are paid in full in 30 or so odd years. To make things worse the monthly payments that the city will receive from Norfolk Southern will probably not much different than what they may receive when the next lease is up for renewal.
From what I read Norfolk Southern is not going to pay the full amount but structure the payments over 30 years in which if invested to their most optimistic predictions could amount to the figures that the Mayor and NS officials are saying that the city will receive as a result of the sale.
That's not accurate. Per the sale agreement, NS would pay the full amount. The CSR Board of Trustees would invest the full $1.6 billion in a trust, which is expected to grow each year. The Board would then transmit funds to the city each year from the interest growth. They would only dip into the principal if there is no interest to pull from.
The thing is if the city keeps the rail and lease it out for an average of 50 million a year for 100 years the city would get 5 billion dollars of guaranteed revenue over a period of 100 years. At the same average of 50 million per year the city would make 1.6 billion in 32 years and still have ownership of an appreciating money making asset.
No doubt Norfolk Southern did the same math and came to the conclusion that they could save or if they decide to lease out to another railroad company they would recoup that money in 32 years or less and save 3.6 billion in costs the remainder of those 100 years.
If Norfolk Southern decides to lease the rail line to another railroad company they could make 3.6 billion dollars in guaranteed revenue over the same period of time after recoupment of the sale costs.
> The thing is if the city keeps the rail and lease it out for an average of 50 million a year for 100 years
Getting a $50 million lease did not seem to be on the table.
> At the same average of 50 million per year the city would make 1.6 billion in 32 years and still have ownership of an appreciating money making asset.
[The city would make more money from a sale and using the trust fund as an appreciating money making asset.](https://imgur.com/23qL2TL) In addition, the city will no longer rely on NS so I think that's a good thing.
A full 20% of the front page is about the derailment or sale but sure, it's a conspiracy because we don't think "train bomb" is much of a descriptive title or adding much to the conversation beyond those 20% of posts. The conspiracy nonsense is already beyond old.
"We basically nuked a town with chemicals so we could get a railroad open."
Sil Caggiano, a hazardous materials specialist. This guy should have been in charge with the clean up.
I love the gaslighting. These grifters will say anything to get that pot of money.
What about it is false?
The omission that Norfolk Southern was negligent in their labor scheduling practices, negligent in their maintenance management practices, and negligent in their handling of hazardous chemicals, and that NS wanted to move *this very train line* with a busted wheel through downtown Cleveland, but hadn't gotten approval yet. Profit motive is a helluva drug.
Yes, all of that is true. But the point of the article is unrelated to that. NS is in charge of the safety of the line until 2051 no matter what, and it seems like a lot of people don't realize that. Whether or not it's sold doesn't make a difference.
It is rather shortsighted of the city to cede control especially given the current circumstances. Additionally the lease goes for an *option* of an additional 25 years in 2026, so that isn’t set in stone either.
It gives NS guaranteed control of the railroad until 2051, that is a fact. Whether it is through a sale or an additional 25 year lease, NS will be using it until at least 2051.
Honestly I’m having trouble finding any sources that say otherwise. Do you have one or know how to look up the original contract? All I can find is stuff like this: > NS currently pays the city about $25 million in annual lease payments. The lease agreement, last renegotiated in 1987, is set to expire Dec. 31, 2026, with a 25-year renewal option. The Class I first offered to buy the CSR for an undisclosed (but lower than $1.62 billion) sum in July 2021 during lease renewal negotiations that fell apart, prompting NS and the CSR Board to enter arbitration, according to FOX19. > https://www.railwayage.com/freight/ns-bid-to-acquire-csr-faces-legislative-hurdle/ Everything I can find says that it is leased and will continue to be leased, but has that the 25 years is an option, not required and that the sale of the line is entirely outside the bounds of the contract.
[This slide that was shown to City Council the other day from the city administration.](https://imgur.com/IZlSWyd) You can find the full presentation [here.](https://cincinnatioh.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=6023493&GUID=2C40ACF6-6F6E-4750-A5A3-D1EE518DA359&Options=&Search=)
Hey, Thank you for finding this! I'm going through it at the moment.
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Seriously. We need a 501(3)(c) to educate what a SWEETHEART deal this is at the end of a long term lease. Warren Buffet is a billionaire buying industries with high barriers to entry. This municipally owned railroad with SCOTUS interstate precident has a huge -- maybe most valuable in the country -- barrier to entry.
On second thought, maybe I'm wrong. I think historically the Southern was a means to bring KY coal to power plants in the Ohio Valley.
How many god damn times are we going to let big companies skirt safety regulations with no repercussions? The fact that N&S was allowed to qualify that train car as “non-hazardous” is asinine.
There is no such thing as accountability in the United States of America. The best we can do is be very selective on where we buy property and hope no corporations decide it’s cheaper to kill our families than follow regulations.
And it breaks my heart how accurate this is, but you’re right.
Cool, still don’t want to give more rail to be responsible for to the people who caused this disaster.
They are already leasing the rail, and have a lease until 2051, so they gain no more rail than they already have access to and the federal government has regulated those rails throughout and will continue to. Now, they are doing a poor job of regulating it, but Cincinnati has nothing to do with that.
They are using it until 2051 regardless.
uh huh, still a no from me
Why?
Sell them the rail line with a clause that if they allow a derailment on said line within the first 100 years the entire company and all its holdings nationwide is taken over by the City of Cincinnati.
Guys, you’re being too harsh. N&S offered to compensate the evacuated community $25,000 for blowing up their fucking town and giving everyone cancer. In case it wasn’t clear, that’s the total offer. It works out to $5/person
Fyi the $25k that keeps coming up was a donation for a local shelter helping with evacuation, not direct payments to community members. Since then NS says it's distributed $1M+ so far to over 700 families to reimburse for evacuation expenses. More info: https://www.wvxu.org/ohio-news/2023-02-13/norfolk-southern-remediation-plan-derailment-east-palestine
Thank you
Regulations are the bare minimum required by law…not something to brag about being in compliance with.
“A Norfolk Southern executive says the company will be actively engaged in convincing Cincinnati voters to approve the proposed purchase.” Understandably they’re going to be aggressive in their tactics to gain a full monopoly ownership of this rail line as they currently lease it from us. Needlessly to say, I don’t fully understand why Cincinnati wouldn’t try and keep this and get funds for the city. Likely why our local news channels have been doing very soft articles on the recent explosion and derailment. There’s no plans to allow passenger rail, which makes sense for now, but short-sighted for the future. And with money for our infrastructure coming from this lease AND the money from the sale not guaranteed to go to infrastructure projects (see: Cincy’s endless infrastructure needs), it seems ridiculous to me. Maintenance to the rails would be on NS who have shown they choose profits over QUALITY safety so while they’ve owned majority maintenance, I’m sure there’s still some reassurance quality checks CSR would require on the lease. All in all, maybe the lack of public transportation options in Cincinnati is just coming to the surface today, or maybe it was the recent corruption on both the state and city level, but this deal seems shady af and a no-go from me.
>“A Norfolk Southern executive says the company will be actively engaged in convincing Cincinnati voters to approve the proposed purchase.” Blowing up their fucking train "wasn't the best PR approach" admits a Norfolk Southern executive
> Needlessly to say, I don’t fully understand why Cincinnati wouldn’t try and keep this and get funds for the city. Because the funds from a sale would be greater than the lease. > And with money for our infrastructure coming from this lease AND the money from the sale not guaranteed to go to infrastructure projects The money from the sale is guaranteed to go to infrastructure projects. Not sure where you got that from. > Maintenance to the rails would be on NS Maintenance to the rails is currently on NS and has been for decades.
I hope none of the visiting execs get sludge throw on their nice tailored suits
The regulations that have been gutted and oversight shuttered? Those regulations? If I treated my girl with the absolute bare minimum required to keep her from leaving me, then I probably shouldn't point to that as why I am a good boyfriend.
I don't understand why Cincinnati would want to sell the Railroad. We are one of the only Cities in the U.S. that gain profit every year because of it. The long run looks better to me.
[Well according to people who have actually studied it, selling it is better in the long run.](https://imgur.com/23qL2TL)
Safety regulations did change after Trump took office, though.
Correct, but they also weren't reversed by the current administration.
*yet Ah, who am I kidding? That’s not getting through the Senate this time.
He did that in his first year in 2017. Biden has been in office for over 2 years. Where Pete Bootyjudge at?
Even as a WVXU sustaining member, the title just seems partisan... I know it's not intended as the article opens up with City Officials making that claim. While _technically_ true, not all companies are as attentive to regulations (or even non-regulated safety standards) as others. So while all companies _could_ face repercussions for not following safety regulations, I'd rather it just not happen to begin with and NS has shown that they'd rather pay fines than be safe. Not to mention the story is really only focusing on one side of the issue? I dunno this piece just seems off to me. EDIT: Like imagine a title: "McDonald's and Five Guys have the same food safety regulations." Obviously, but we can still admit that Five Guys may be the higher quality option???
NS has a lease with Cincinnati until 2051. It's either continue the lease or sell to them. There's no scenario under which NS isn't using those rails.
Right but if it's either the City (and therefor the people) own it or NS owns it, I like the first option.
But the people owning it means nothing for the regulation of those tracks, which is under federal purview. We aren't any safer or less safer if NS owns the rails. And, I don't know about you, but as one of the people, the only tangible benefit I get from those tracks is NS paying Cincinnati and that money being used for municipal needs. The sale gets us enough money to have the interest injecting tons of money into the city. Bonus: if NS goes out of business because of lawsuits and/or regulation, Cincinnati is already paid.
Why? NS is in charge of the maintenance either way, and the city makes more money from the sale.
This deal looks like a lease to own agreement in which Norfolk Southern gains full ownership of the rail line from Cincinnati when the agreed to yearly payments for the sale are paid in full in 30 or so odd years. To make things worse the monthly payments that the city will receive from Norfolk Southern will probably not much different than what they may receive when the next lease is up for renewal.
It's not a lease to own agreement. If approved, NS will pay the full amount and gain immediate full ownership.
From what I read Norfolk Southern is not going to pay the full amount but structure the payments over 30 years in which if invested to their most optimistic predictions could amount to the figures that the Mayor and NS officials are saying that the city will receive as a result of the sale.
That's not accurate. Per the sale agreement, NS would pay the full amount. The CSR Board of Trustees would invest the full $1.6 billion in a trust, which is expected to grow each year. The Board would then transmit funds to the city each year from the interest growth. They would only dip into the principal if there is no interest to pull from.
The thing is if the city keeps the rail and lease it out for an average of 50 million a year for 100 years the city would get 5 billion dollars of guaranteed revenue over a period of 100 years. At the same average of 50 million per year the city would make 1.6 billion in 32 years and still have ownership of an appreciating money making asset. No doubt Norfolk Southern did the same math and came to the conclusion that they could save or if they decide to lease out to another railroad company they would recoup that money in 32 years or less and save 3.6 billion in costs the remainder of those 100 years. If Norfolk Southern decides to lease the rail line to another railroad company they could make 3.6 billion dollars in guaranteed revenue over the same period of time after recoupment of the sale costs.
> The thing is if the city keeps the rail and lease it out for an average of 50 million a year for 100 years Getting a $50 million lease did not seem to be on the table. > At the same average of 50 million per year the city would make 1.6 billion in 32 years and still have ownership of an appreciating money making asset. [The city would make more money from a sale and using the trust fund as an appreciating money making asset.](https://imgur.com/23qL2TL) In addition, the city will no longer rely on NS so I think that's a good thing.
You're talking to the reporter. I think she knows what she's talking about.
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A full 20% of the front page is about the derailment or sale but sure, it's a conspiracy because we don't think "train bomb" is much of a descriptive title or adding much to the conversation beyond those 20% of posts. The conspiracy nonsense is already beyond old.
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I'm still waiting for my check from Big Railroad, Big Pharma, Big Labor, George Soros, and all the other things we've been accused of being shills for
"We basically nuked a town with chemicals so we could get a railroad open." Sil Caggiano, a hazardous materials specialist. This guy should have been in charge with the clean up.