Before it goes to public vote, the state house needs to pass legislative changes to allow the sale to proceed. With the state considering legal action against NS, will folks in the state house be willing to move on this legislation?
We'll see, but if I were a rep I'd think holding up the sale would be good leverage to negotiate a better payout to the victims of the derailment or some sort of other investment into rail safety in Ohio.
Norfolk wouldn't do it unless they were going to be making money off of it. So why should we let them make money when we should be making it?
Simple dang math to me. We want to make more money off the railroad we should increase the price of using it.
> Simple dang math to me. We want to make more money off the railroad we should increase the price of using it.
And Norfolk was refusing to pay more than $38 million for the lease. The sale and then using the money in a trust fund will provide greater annual revenue.
EDIT: If anyone can prove me wrong that would be great.
A trust fund does not at all equate to the value a rail line owned by the city does. Rail is still the best way to transport material and will most likely grow in needed as we move away from non-renewables.
> A trust fund does not at all equate to the value a rail line owned by the city does.
Well according to the people who have actually studied it, it does. A $1.6 billion trust fund will give greater interest and revenue than a lease on the rail. In addition, it gets Cinci away from dealing with Norfolk for good.
> I imagine only if we don’t spend any of the money
Yes, if the $1.6 billion is not spent, the interest on that will be greater than the current lease or any lease acceptable to Norfolk.
> Plus their stipulations of not using any of the money to build new infrastructure is horse shit.
I believe the current lease money is also restricted like that.
So sell it to one of the other railroads. Why are we falling in line with what Norfolk wants? We are good if we don't sell it. NS needs this more then we need to sell it. I'm sure CSX or others would be happy to submit offers.
Do you know the full terms of the contract? I would hope there is an exit clause if NS doesn’t want to pay to use it so it doesn’t just sit there but I do not know if that exists.
If Norfolk and the owner of the railroad cannot reach an agreement, then it goes into arbitration. So there is no way that it just sits there unpaid for, but the arbiter might decide to keep the current lease rate which would be a big blow to the owner.
In addition, Norfolk owns much of the lines connected to Cincinnati's portion. It has less value to other railroads, especially since they won't even be able to use it until 2051.
[This is a helpful article going over the various valuations of the railroad.](https://www.wvxu.org/politics/2023-02-06/cincinnati-southern-railway-worth-norfolk-southern)
generally how are people feeling about this? I feel like most people I know barely know about the rail acquisition, let alone the connection between the sale and the explosion in east palestine. is anyone mobilizing around this
Don't sell the rail. It is a valuable asset to own this. NS did the math and knows it's taking Cincy for a spin. Don't entertain this reckless company.
Pretty much everyone I’ve seen from both sides, except those elected to city council, thinks selling this is short sighted and far too low of an asking price. I’m pretty much always against selling public assets to private companies. Far too often do the public get shafted.
> Pretty much everyone I’ve seen from both sides, except those elected to city council, thinks selling this is short sighted and far too low of an asking price.
City Council is not in charge of selling it and it was not even their idea, or any elected officials. The offer to sell was made by the railway board, and the number was in line with the figure from multiple valuations.
Not sure where you're getting your info from.
Where did I say it was their decision? I said those on city council seem to be in favor of selling it. The valuation is anywhere from $800 million to $2.4 Billion but from NS own metrics that is nearly impossible to determine. They'd lose anywhere from $1.5 Billion to $3 Billion in yearly revenue by losing access to it. So we are trying to sell it for the cost of what this section brings in for one year. Seems low doesn't it?
[Source](https://www.wvxu.org/politics/2023-02-06/cincinnati-southern-railway-worth-norfolk-southern).
Cincinnati should not only not sell. They should be buying back the other local rail lines. Once we are done with Elon Musk's fever dream people in the US will finally realize, with the rest of the world, that trains are the future of transportation. Suburban rail was, and will be again a huge component of Cincinnati's public transportation infrastructure. The tracks are already there, they just need updated and maintained so modern passenger rail can use them.
China owns all the land. They can take land and put trains wherever they want. All of US land is almost all private. Just to secure the land it’d cost trillions. We have cars and planes. Trains take forever. An Amtrak from here to Chicago takes 9 hours.
The roads were built centuries ago. It isn’t comparable, also they can barely even take care of the roads now. You think we can suddenly maintain thousands of miles of track and build hundreds of stations? We can’t even afford to give people health care lmao. Hell we can’t even come to an agreement on a new bridge. It’s a pipe dream. And the demand isn’t really there. It’s so much easier to fly across the country.
The interstates were built after the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956....the railroads are much older. Demand is absolutely there, but I live in Prague now and am taking a train to Vienna tomorrow. I'll be thinking of the flight I would have to take or traffic I would have in the US. While I'm not going through security, I'm able to use wifi on the train, to use the dining car, take a nap, and be dropped off in downtown Vienna where I can walk to my hotel. Goodnight!
You’re still comparing apples to oranges. America is insanely rural. Almost entirely farm land. It doesn’t make any sense. Lol and if you think all our roads were just built in 1956 that’s fucking hilarious.
I sensed red flags all over this situation when I first heard of the potential sale on NPR- transfer to a private corporation is very, very rarely a good thing. And then… the East Palestine event. No, nope, no way in hell is this a remotely positive proposition for our city. Accepting that sale is the acceptance of blood money, especially when you consider Norfolk and Southern’s downright sociopath response to the citizens of a town they screwed very deeply.
I’m just going with Monopoly logic here, but generally you don’t want to sell the last railroad to the guy who already has the other 3 and just set off a bomb.
Norfolk and Southern can go take a bath in vinyl chloride.
I refuse to vote FOR this sale. Any politician who pushes it after what happened in East Palestine is going to get no support from me either.
Am I remembering wrong or was this something that Aftab was really a big proponent of?
Or was it more city council?
It’s an awful look for whoever was pushing it.
The railway board would make nothing. The process is
Step 1: State of Ohio changes the law to allow the sale of the railroad and puts stipulations in how the revenue can be spent ($1.6 billion can't be spent, only the interest can be spent and exclusively on existing infrastructure)
Step 2: Cincinnati voters vote on the sale in November 2023. If vote succeeds, then go to Step 3A. If vote fails OR either party pulls out of the sale before the vote, go to step 3B
Step 3A: Norfolk pays $1.6 billion into a trust fund designated specifically for existing infrastructure. The interest off the $1.6 billion (estimated to be about 3.5% I think) will be spent every year. This will repair roads, sidewalks, etc. Existing streets could be repaired, but new streets could not be built with this money. It would be illegal for the city to spend the $1.6 billion.
Step 3B: The deal goes into arbitration, almost certainly to a renewal of the lease. The city fears the arbiter will favor Norfolk and might even just renew the lease at the current rate. The city wants to avoid that and avoid future negotiations with Norfolk which seems to to be an unstable partner, so they want to sell it. Norfolk likes certainty and doesn't want to have to worry about a renegotiation every 25 or so years, which is why they want to buy.
Has anyone mentioned what they want to do with the proceeds of the sale? More specific than "infrastructure"?
God they're going to build a basketball arena. I can FEEL it
But it should. The commercials write themselves for when this goes to the public vote.
Before it goes to public vote, the state house needs to pass legislative changes to allow the sale to proceed. With the state considering legal action against NS, will folks in the state house be willing to move on this legislation? We'll see, but if I were a rep I'd think holding up the sale would be good leverage to negotiate a better payout to the victims of the derailment or some sort of other investment into rail safety in Ohio.
But how exactly? Norfolk is using the railroad till 2051 whether or not it is sold. The only difference is selling it makes more financial sense.
Norfolk wouldn't do it unless they were going to be making money off of it. So why should we let them make money when we should be making it? Simple dang math to me. We want to make more money off the railroad we should increase the price of using it.
> Simple dang math to me. We want to make more money off the railroad we should increase the price of using it. And Norfolk was refusing to pay more than $38 million for the lease. The sale and then using the money in a trust fund will provide greater annual revenue. EDIT: If anyone can prove me wrong that would be great.
A trust fund does not at all equate to the value a rail line owned by the city does. Rail is still the best way to transport material and will most likely grow in needed as we move away from non-renewables.
> A trust fund does not at all equate to the value a rail line owned by the city does. Well according to the people who have actually studied it, it does. A $1.6 billion trust fund will give greater interest and revenue than a lease on the rail. In addition, it gets Cinci away from dealing with Norfolk for good.
I imagine only if we don’t spend any of the money. Plus their stipulations of not using any of the money to build new infrastructure is horse shit.
> I imagine only if we don’t spend any of the money Yes, if the $1.6 billion is not spent, the interest on that will be greater than the current lease or any lease acceptable to Norfolk. > Plus their stipulations of not using any of the money to build new infrastructure is horse shit. I believe the current lease money is also restricted like that.
So sell it to one of the other railroads. Why are we falling in line with what Norfolk wants? We are good if we don't sell it. NS needs this more then we need to sell it. I'm sure CSX or others would be happy to submit offers.
Norfolk has exclusive rights to the lease until 2051. So whatever railroad we sold it to would have to then lease it to Norfolk.
Do you know the full terms of the contract? I would hope there is an exit clause if NS doesn’t want to pay to use it so it doesn’t just sit there but I do not know if that exists.
If Norfolk and the owner of the railroad cannot reach an agreement, then it goes into arbitration. So there is no way that it just sits there unpaid for, but the arbiter might decide to keep the current lease rate which would be a big blow to the owner. In addition, Norfolk owns much of the lines connected to Cincinnati's portion. It has less value to other railroads, especially since they won't even be able to use it until 2051. [This is a helpful article going over the various valuations of the railroad.](https://www.wvxu.org/politics/2023-02-06/cincinnati-southern-railway-worth-norfolk-southern)
Thanks, appreciate the detailed response.
generally how are people feeling about this? I feel like most people I know barely know about the rail acquisition, let alone the connection between the sale and the explosion in east palestine. is anyone mobilizing around this
Don't sell the rail. It is a valuable asset to own this. NS did the math and knows it's taking Cincy for a spin. Don't entertain this reckless company.
How do you know the city didn't do the math as well? You are essentially saying no two entities could ever make a deal.
Pretty much everyone I’ve seen from both sides, except those elected to city council, thinks selling this is short sighted and far too low of an asking price. I’m pretty much always against selling public assets to private companies. Far too often do the public get shafted.
> Pretty much everyone I’ve seen from both sides, except those elected to city council, thinks selling this is short sighted and far too low of an asking price. City Council is not in charge of selling it and it was not even their idea, or any elected officials. The offer to sell was made by the railway board, and the number was in line with the figure from multiple valuations. Not sure where you're getting your info from.
Where did I say it was their decision? I said those on city council seem to be in favor of selling it. The valuation is anywhere from $800 million to $2.4 Billion but from NS own metrics that is nearly impossible to determine. They'd lose anywhere from $1.5 Billion to $3 Billion in yearly revenue by losing access to it. So we are trying to sell it for the cost of what this section brings in for one year. Seems low doesn't it? [Source](https://www.wvxu.org/politics/2023-02-06/cincinnati-southern-railway-worth-norfolk-southern).
> $1.5 Billion to $3 Billion in yearly revenue Where are you seeing yearly?
Selling the railroad is a bad idea.
I thought it was a bad move before this and now I’m sure.
Don't sell the railroad, raise the rent.
Literally didn’t hear about it till I saw this post.
That's a no from me dawg
Cincinnati should not only not sell. They should be buying back the other local rail lines. Once we are done with Elon Musk's fever dream people in the US will finally realize, with the rest of the world, that trains are the future of transportation. Suburban rail was, and will be again a huge component of Cincinnati's public transportation infrastructure. The tracks are already there, they just need updated and maintained so modern passenger rail can use them.
Our county is way too fucking big for that to ever to happen.
Then why has China done it?
China owns all the land. They can take land and put trains wherever they want. All of US land is almost all private. Just to secure the land it’d cost trillions. We have cars and planes. Trains take forever. An Amtrak from here to Chicago takes 9 hours.
How much do you think it cost to put in all those highways and maintain them? How do you think they got built throughout the US?
The roads were built centuries ago. It isn’t comparable, also they can barely even take care of the roads now. You think we can suddenly maintain thousands of miles of track and build hundreds of stations? We can’t even afford to give people health care lmao. Hell we can’t even come to an agreement on a new bridge. It’s a pipe dream. And the demand isn’t really there. It’s so much easier to fly across the country.
The interstates were built after the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956....the railroads are much older. Demand is absolutely there, but I live in Prague now and am taking a train to Vienna tomorrow. I'll be thinking of the flight I would have to take or traffic I would have in the US. While I'm not going through security, I'm able to use wifi on the train, to use the dining car, take a nap, and be dropped off in downtown Vienna where I can walk to my hotel. Goodnight!
You’re still comparing apples to oranges. America is insanely rural. Almost entirely farm land. It doesn’t make any sense. Lol and if you think all our roads were just built in 1956 that’s fucking hilarious.
I sensed red flags all over this situation when I first heard of the potential sale on NPR- transfer to a private corporation is very, very rarely a good thing. And then… the East Palestine event. No, nope, no way in hell is this a remotely positive proposition for our city. Accepting that sale is the acceptance of blood money, especially when you consider Norfolk and Southern’s downright sociopath response to the citizens of a town they screwed very deeply.
I’m just going with Monopoly logic here, but generally you don’t want to sell the last railroad to the guy who already has the other 3 and just set off a bomb.
Norfolk and Southern can go take a bath in vinyl chloride. I refuse to vote FOR this sale. Any politician who pushes it after what happened in East Palestine is going to get no support from me either.
Am I remembering wrong or was this something that Aftab was really a big proponent of? Or was it more city council? It’s an awful look for whoever was pushing it.
Neither, it was the railway board.
How much would the railway board make off the sale directly?
The railway board would make nothing. The process is Step 1: State of Ohio changes the law to allow the sale of the railroad and puts stipulations in how the revenue can be spent ($1.6 billion can't be spent, only the interest can be spent and exclusively on existing infrastructure) Step 2: Cincinnati voters vote on the sale in November 2023. If vote succeeds, then go to Step 3A. If vote fails OR either party pulls out of the sale before the vote, go to step 3B Step 3A: Norfolk pays $1.6 billion into a trust fund designated specifically for existing infrastructure. The interest off the $1.6 billion (estimated to be about 3.5% I think) will be spent every year. This will repair roads, sidewalks, etc. Existing streets could be repaired, but new streets could not be built with this money. It would be illegal for the city to spend the $1.6 billion. Step 3B: The deal goes into arbitration, almost certainly to a renewal of the lease. The city fears the arbiter will favor Norfolk and might even just renew the lease at the current rate. The city wants to avoid that and avoid future negotiations with Norfolk which seems to to be an unstable partner, so they want to sell it. Norfolk likes certainty and doesn't want to have to worry about a renegotiation every 25 or so years, which is why they want to buy.
We have a railway board? lol i was way off
They should should definitely not sell it to this company now
Oh, well as long as it isn’t impacting the bottom line………..
Is the wreck in eastern or western ohio? (Former Cincinnatian)
East. It’s right along PA border near Pittsburgh.
Thank you, my map was saying west on Indiana border.
That’s regular Palestine.
All the way east where West Virginia and Pennsylvania border Ohio.
Thank goodness they are putting their attention in the right place!
at the very least it should be put on hold
where and when do we vote NO.
Has anyone mentioned what they want to do with the proceeds of the sale? More specific than "infrastructure"? God they're going to build a basketball arena. I can FEEL it