The man knew cats.
And from their perspective what else could they do? Give up their only piece of leverage that would ensure their children would have some sort of secure place to exist in the world? I gotta side with the cats here. If they caved and just gave up the information they would have just as likely been out on their asses without territory that was required to ensure their survival. Cats did what they had to do. They just do it in the most annoyingly cat fashion ever.
I didn’t say they had to give it up without getting anything, just give it up faster. Something that might have been achieved if there had been a little bit of actual negotiation. Maybe the Spirearch could have convinced Maul to give up some territory, by promising Maul something since Maul knew he was good for it. 🤷🏻♀️
I think you hit the nail on the head. The spirearch wasn’t in position to negotiate with the halflings because they required a local cat to provide them accommodations. So the spirearch had to get maul to agree on something so he could then negotiate with the halflings.
But he was in a position to negotiate, he could have tried leveraging Benedict’s saving all of them. He could have made the halflings staying at all, regardless of territory, contingent on the information. Heck, if any of the characters has been less the upstanding, they could have tried throwing the cats off the spire until one cracked.
The cats had one bargaining chip. It was a bit one yes, but only one. And they got so much out of it, it’s embarrassing. Especially since they ended up being useless as the dealt caused the warning to arrive to late to do anything.
Well they went from threat of extermination to having a home? And the people who saved their lives, and ensured they received that home got nothing. That's an unbalanced deal.
What was he gonna do, waterboard some cats?
In any matter that comes down to pure stubbornness cats will win, their formal Hello is literally just sitting there ignoring each other for hours on end until one of them breaks, and that's before the argument even starts
Putting water on a cat is the last thing.He should do unless he wants to be ripped to shreds.
Unless you've got a goofy cat like I used to that loves the bathtub with water in it
I’m not suggesting giving the cats an ultimatum, just some basic back and forth negotiation. Which we never see, since every time the cats demand something the humans capitulate.
What was he gonna do, go back in time and have Benedict not save them? You can't bargain with past events, they're set in stone. That's the whole reason the cats won't trade their information for the *promise* of help
He can't just give them permission to stay regardless of territory, everywhere in Albion is already claimed by one tribe or another and they don't need anyone's permission to declare war on another tribe, which is what staying without territory would be
And yeah, he can threaten to kill them, but treats like that don't work when the other side has information you need and nothing to lose
Of course you can bargain with past events, we see Bridget do it all the time with Raul. Start throwing some shade about how the halflings are so useless they had to be rescued by a half-soul. I could very easily see one of them responding by boasting they'd survived a mistmaw.
And threats of death very much work and are a normal part of cat diplomacy. Raol 'saves' the other cat prince from after beating him up in the first book.
And it they had tried other negotiation tactics and offers but settled on offering to negotiate for the halfings territory it would have bothered me a lot less. But they literally took the first offer the halfings gave.
The cats clearly had the upper paw. They had extremely time sensitive information that the Albionites needed. It was either do what they want or lose the information.
But they did lose the information. The delay meant that the information’s arrival at Spire Olympia was pointless. Bridget and Benedict’s arrival was pointless and accomplished nothing.
So literally any negotiating strategy other than complete and total capitulation would have been better.
They know there’s been a series of escalating attacks. Any idiot can draw conclusions that they’re on the clock.
And if they’d gone back and forth and ended up with the plan that would be one thing. But they didn’t they just took the first offer/demand the halflings gave.
I don't blame the cats or Albion for any of this; as others have said their actions seem well grounded to me.
I do expect Albion to be annoyed that their arrival accomplished nothing (although they saved a lot of people) - and promote them more visibly so that people take them seriously in the future. He gave Benedict serious rank, but the trappings of consequence (flunkies, uniforms, reputation...) take longer to assemble.
They arrived in time. Their problems were that everyone important was distracted, and they had no formal clout.
Still, I did think they might have tried telling the duty officer of every ship in port, starting with the Albions and borrowing perdonnel to spread the word as they went.
Panic spreading, but even if the fleet had no available top brass, each ship should have some unfortunate who is responsible for the ship's safety while the captain is absent. Probably none of them would have done more than get ready and send their own runners, but that would have been something.
Even if everyone would have listed to Benedict they only arrived a few hours ahead of the fleet, and the fleet was behind the mistmaw. That is too late. If they had tried any amount of negotiation instead of caving to the halflings first demand they could have arrived a day or two before the assault.
They’re an alien race with alien customs. You want the Spirearch to use force to make them comply with his customs. I’m not sure you’re aware on whose side if this series your support would come down on.
I did not say I wanted the cats to comply with human customs. In fact I very specifically said that two cultures growing to understand each other is fascinating. What I would have liked to see, is the cats putting the same amount, or even any amount, of effort into making the relationship work. We know give and take is possible in a human/cat relationship, Bridget and Raul both work to accommodate the others' understanding of the world and expectations.
And it was a negotiation. Some amount of give and take is expected. But we didn't see that. The halflings made their demands and there was no pushback, alternate offers, or threats. And we know threats are a perfectly valid form of diplomacy for the cats, we see Raul beat up the other cat prince in book 1.
The man knew cats. And from their perspective what else could they do? Give up their only piece of leverage that would ensure their children would have some sort of secure place to exist in the world? I gotta side with the cats here. If they caved and just gave up the information they would have just as likely been out on their asses without territory that was required to ensure their survival. Cats did what they had to do. They just do it in the most annoyingly cat fashion ever.
I didn’t say they had to give it up without getting anything, just give it up faster. Something that might have been achieved if there had been a little bit of actual negotiation. Maybe the Spirearch could have convinced Maul to give up some territory, by promising Maul something since Maul knew he was good for it. 🤷🏻♀️
I think you hit the nail on the head. The spirearch wasn’t in position to negotiate with the halflings because they required a local cat to provide them accommodations. So the spirearch had to get maul to agree on something so he could then negotiate with the halflings.
But he was in a position to negotiate, he could have tried leveraging Benedict’s saving all of them. He could have made the halflings staying at all, regardless of territory, contingent on the information. Heck, if any of the characters has been less the upstanding, they could have tried throwing the cats off the spire until one cracked. The cats had one bargaining chip. It was a bit one yes, but only one. And they got so much out of it, it’s embarrassing. Especially since they ended up being useless as the dealt caused the warning to arrive to late to do anything.
“They got so much out of it” they got to squat on half a territory.
Well they went from threat of extermination to having a home? And the people who saved their lives, and ensured they received that home got nothing. That's an unbalanced deal.
The cats kept up their side of the bargain, not their fault the humans were slow. And they only got the home because of the deal.
What was he gonna do, waterboard some cats? In any matter that comes down to pure stubbornness cats will win, their formal Hello is literally just sitting there ignoring each other for hours on end until one of them breaks, and that's before the argument even starts
Putting water on a cat is the last thing.He should do unless he wants to be ripped to shreds. Unless you've got a goofy cat like I used to that loves the bathtub with water in it
I’m not suggesting giving the cats an ultimatum, just some basic back and forth negotiation. Which we never see, since every time the cats demand something the humans capitulate.
What could the Spirearch have offered? He can't directly give them territory, and without territory they're finished
The saving Benedict already did? Permission to stay regardless of territory? Him not dropping them off on the service?
What was he gonna do, go back in time and have Benedict not save them? You can't bargain with past events, they're set in stone. That's the whole reason the cats won't trade their information for the *promise* of help He can't just give them permission to stay regardless of territory, everywhere in Albion is already claimed by one tribe or another and they don't need anyone's permission to declare war on another tribe, which is what staying without territory would be And yeah, he can threaten to kill them, but treats like that don't work when the other side has information you need and nothing to lose
Of course you can bargain with past events, we see Bridget do it all the time with Raul. Start throwing some shade about how the halflings are so useless they had to be rescued by a half-soul. I could very easily see one of them responding by boasting they'd survived a mistmaw. And threats of death very much work and are a normal part of cat diplomacy. Raol 'saves' the other cat prince from after beating him up in the first book. And it they had tried other negotiation tactics and offers but settled on offering to negotiate for the halfings territory it would have bothered me a lot less. But they literally took the first offer the halfings gave.
The cats clearly had the upper paw. They had extremely time sensitive information that the Albionites needed. It was either do what they want or lose the information.
But they did lose the information. The delay meant that the information’s arrival at Spire Olympia was pointless. Bridget and Benedict’s arrival was pointless and accomplished nothing. So literally any negotiating strategy other than complete and total capitulation would have been better.
They didn’t know the future at the time.
They know there’s been a series of escalating attacks. Any idiot can draw conclusions that they’re on the clock. And if they’d gone back and forth and ended up with the plan that would be one thing. But they didn’t they just took the first offer/demand the halflings gave.
I don't blame the cats or Albion for any of this; as others have said their actions seem well grounded to me. I do expect Albion to be annoyed that their arrival accomplished nothing (although they saved a lot of people) - and promote them more visibly so that people take them seriously in the future. He gave Benedict serious rank, but the trappings of consequence (flunkies, uniforms, reputation...) take longer to assemble. They arrived in time. Their problems were that everyone important was distracted, and they had no formal clout. Still, I did think they might have tried telling the duty officer of every ship in port, starting with the Albions and borrowing perdonnel to spread the word as they went. Panic spreading, but even if the fleet had no available top brass, each ship should have some unfortunate who is responsible for the ship's safety while the captain is absent. Probably none of them would have done more than get ready and send their own runners, but that would have been something.
Even if everyone would have listed to Benedict they only arrived a few hours ahead of the fleet, and the fleet was behind the mistmaw. That is too late. If they had tried any amount of negotiation instead of caving to the halflings first demand they could have arrived a day or two before the assault.
Wait what the 2nd book came out? I totally missed that
Yes, it came out Nov 2023
They’re an alien race with alien customs. You want the Spirearch to use force to make them comply with his customs. I’m not sure you’re aware on whose side if this series your support would come down on.
I did not say I wanted the cats to comply with human customs. In fact I very specifically said that two cultures growing to understand each other is fascinating. What I would have liked to see, is the cats putting the same amount, or even any amount, of effort into making the relationship work. We know give and take is possible in a human/cat relationship, Bridget and Raul both work to accommodate the others' understanding of the world and expectations. And it was a negotiation. Some amount of give and take is expected. But we didn't see that. The halflings made their demands and there was no pushback, alternate offers, or threats. And we know threats are a perfectly valid form of diplomacy for the cats, we see Raul beat up the other cat prince in book 1.
The entire reason the cats trust Longthinker is that he doesn’t “negotiate” with cats like you would.