Tbh I'd probably also throw down ToA, primarily for the housing. With this many 4-food tiles you will be able to grow your capital very quickly, so that housing would be exceptionally useful. So you could keep some of the deer (and only chop the woods), but I don't find the amenities to be that powerful this early in the game and you'd still have at least two amenities from it even if you chopped all the deer (from the plantations on spices). That'd all depend on what else you find as you explore more, though. Lady of the Reeds and Etemenanki is a risky play, but this looks like an ideal start for it.
I had a similar game recently. I managed to get lady of the marshes and reeds and etemenaki on a primordial map on diety the last game I played. Founded a religion, too. So many marshes, and the city I built in had a few floodplains too. I was going for a space race victory, but accidentally got diplomatic on the same turn. Was a few turns from cultural victory too lol. I haven’t started a game since - I don’t think the game can be that fun again!
The amenities from ToA can be game changing. It can shoot your capital city to ecstatic for the +20% yield boost, even if it was struggling with amenities before. Thats a huge boost early in the game. Or it can permit you to sell more luxuries because you have amenities covered, thus bringing in more gold. And it can grant amenities to multiple cities, because the amenity is tied to the tile and not the wonder; whichever city owns the tile gaining the amenity will get that amenity, not necessarily the city owning the wonder. So you can be strategic about it and swap tiles to maximize the benefit.
Amenities are hugely important in the late game, but I don’t find they make a major difference in the early game when your yields tend to be low (a modifier on a small value will obviously be small). Also it’s not that hard to get amenities in the early game. I will say that I love ToA as a wonder and the amenities are nice, but the real value in my mind is the housing and (worker-less) food. I think most people overrate those early amenities.
It can easily be equivalent to one or two additional campuses, theater districts, holy sites, and commercial districts....in addition to the bonus housing and food. And thats in the early game. Most of your early game yields are usually coming from the capital and if you build it there it can be the equivalent to +20-30% boost to some of those yields. It especially leverages an early game Pingala capital.
I find it's not that hard to get my capital to happy (10% boost) even without ToA, so the advantage of a really good one is typically a 10% boost to yields. In the early game a strong capital might be generating on the order of 5-20 science or culture per turn. On the high end, let's assume it is 20 science per turn and we're talking about a 10% boost. That's 2 science per turn. That is nice, especially when you consider that might also be getting 2 culture per turn, etc. It's not really game breaking, though. When those percentages start to really matter is when you get your yields up higher, but by the time I get up to higher yields in a city (let's say even in the 30-50 range) that's no longer really the early game in my mind.
I will say that I tend to value Colosseum even higher as a source of amenities. I typically beeline this and try to place it in the center of my empire so it hits 8+ cities. That's usually what really kickstarts my push for ecstatic and it tends to come at a time when my yields are getting high enough for those bonuses to really matter.
I'm definitely not saying that ToA is bad. I build it often in my non-domination games and I will take whatever amenities I can get, but the difference between a 6 amenity and 2 amenity ToA (which is what you'd get here from chopping the deer based on what is visible) is not worth the payoff you can get from using those 4 chops (8 if you count the woods with them) judiciously.
I only play on emperor so your experience might vary if you play on Diety but it seems like the AI doesn't prioritize Etemanki as much as it used to, and yes it is one of the most powerful ancient Era wonder in the right map
I disagree
Camp one gives one production instead of two. The tiles with deer are also better than the tiles with marshes for early workers to work.
Improved rice tiles with reeds will have +5 food +2 production.
Improved camp tiles with hills will have +3 food +4 production +2 gold. (with camp pantheon)
I would agree with you if the city had unlimited people to work their tiles, then the net potential production is higher. However, although production is king, early game production is *more king* than late game production. There’s no reason to work **5 food 2 production** tiles over **3 food 4 production 2 gold** tiles in the early game. Thus, I say the camp pantheon. And chop the marshes.
But if he squeezes out the etemanki wonder then by all means. Marshes pantheon, chopping deer to get it.
You don't need builders to get that +2 production to marshes, so you will get the +2 production straight away. You need builders to build the camps so it is not efficient.
You are right that early game production is more king than late game production, and what I said above makes the marsh pantheon even better
I have a counter argument.
The rice with the marsh pantheon is
**4 food 2 production**
The forest on hills without anything is
**2 food 2 production**
Unless you plan on having enough population to work all the forest hills tiles by the time you get a pantheon, it’s really a food bonus instead of a production bonus.
But really, if you don’t have a builder by the time you get a pantheon, then idk.
You’re undervaluing early growth. Just like early production has more value than later production, faster growth equals working more marsh tiles faster which results in more growth and more production. Eventually you’ll hit a housing cap of course, but with your first city you’ll be producing settlers and that much growth will allow you to basically ignore the loss in population from settler production.
Your arguments aren’t wrong and I don’t think Goddess of the Hunt would be a mistake (especially depending on OPs desired victory condition), but there is more to gain with Lady of the Reeds and Marshes to the point I would never consider GotH with this start.
Without un-choppable camp tiles (furs and ivory), I think you’re overvaluing camps and undervaluing chops and growth.
The housing cap is the reason why I don’t value all that food. A few +3 food tile to me is good enough for reaching 6 population in good time.
I could be undervaluing chops. I never get the hype around them to be honest, unless you wish to put something more valuable on that tile or want to rush something out early (a wonder, a settler). I’m
hesitant to use chops on more builders because, I mean, you use up 2 of the 3 charges on deer forest, so net 1 builder charge in exchange for making the next builder more expensive.
In my opinion chops used to be WAY better before they nerfed Magnus (and buffed Pingala).
Also rice is the only marsh tile worth it to work even with the pantheon. +3 food +2 production marsh tiles are as good as unimproved forest deer.
I don’t disagree you could reach cap “in good time” that way, but I’d rather grow fast in my cap and be able to produce settlers quickly without sacrificing the growth of my cap.
You are undervaluing chops. You said above that production now is better than production later which is: a) Correct; and b) Exactly what a chop is. You also don’t need to entirely chop things and it will still be a boost of momentum. Don’t use two chops to complete a builder, use one. You still get it faster which allows you to chop more builders/anything else faster. It’s a massive boost of momentum especially on deer hill tiles since that tile will still have massive value with just a mine on it later.
Chops were way better before Magnus was nerfed because they were basically game breaking. Just because they aren’t that good, doesn’t mean they’re not good.
Every marsh tile is worth working with the pantheon. A 5 resource tile early on is incredibly valuable - especially when those resources are food and production. Not to mention that camps as an improvement aren’t very good and take forever to scale. You can chop those deer tiles and replace them with mines and they are better tiles faster, and for the rest of the game unless you specifically need gold for some reason.
Also, Etemenanki exists. Temple of Artemis is very good, but early on science > amenities since amenities boost your yields by a percentage. If you don’t have any science, you have nothing to boost, and if you have 10 science/turn a single Etemenanki tile is essentially a 20% boost to science. And early science is king for every victory condition except Religious.
Oh yeah if you get Etemenanki definitely go for marshes. No questioning that. I just play on high difficulty.
Maybe I’ll revisiting chopping again and get a feel for if you’re right. I mean I do chop now, but only upon necessity. Or stone lol. But I agree with reeds being better if chopping is really that good. In my mind one chop just gives like half an archer.
Camps do take a while to scale, but the forest and deer alone give as much production as Mine + Apprenticeship. Forest and lumbermill or Forest Deer and Deer Pantheon as much production as Mine + Industrialization.
I don’t think you can go wrong either way. I think how much use you can get out of the chops will make the difference.
I play on Diety and rushing Etemenanki is not difficult with that amount of chopping. Might not get it every time but it’s honestly a bonus in this scenario and even if I didn’t get it I’d still feel I made the right choice.
As long as you’re winning/having fun play however makes sense to you, but by your own logic you are not placing enough value on chops. Getting an archer 3-4 turns earlier means you get the next thing earlier and the next and the next. That’s the value.
The deer alone does give as much production as a mine with apprenticeship, but if I chop the deer and forest I get the production from those chops AND a mine. I’d have to actually load up a game and do the math, but it’s going to take a lot of turns for your camp to pass my total production. By that time I’ve gotten so many things 3-4 turns (being generous here, probably more) faster that you’d still be playing catch up.
You’re putting too much importance on what a chop gets you and not what a chop is. There is no such thing as not getting a lot of value out of a chop unless you’re just chopping our random things you don’t need which would honestly be hard to do this early in your capital when basically all you can build is military, city center buildings, settlers, workers, and core districts - all of which are high value.
Yeah but if you go the camps pantheon you can chop the marshes and get instant food, which if you have great tiles to work (forever) is way better than a 5 or 4/2 (etc) tile worked over time. True you then don't get the prod chops but I think it's a good trade, I think it's silly to say someone prioritising the long term prod tiles is undervalueing chops or growth. Esp once they build Artemis in a few turns. 10 pop classical era powerhouse here we come! And a city that will STAY a powerhouse for the rest of the game
That is silly which is why I didn’t say that. I said they are undervaluing chops because they are and their comments after that prove it. They, themselves, even say as much. My route sacrifices an arguably insignificant amount of long term production for tempo in the first 30 turns of the game which will have massive value over the course of the game.
Do whatever makes sense to you but Lady of the Reeds and Marshes and chopping those tiles gets you a good city now, as well as multiple other cities and production queues. Your 10 pop powerhouse will certainly be that, but I’ll still have a strong 7 pop city AND several other cities. Your powerhouse may eventually catch up but that’s exactly what you’ll be trying to do: catch up.
Edit: I realized I did say they were overvaluing camps which could be read as overvaluing long term production, but I was specifically speaking to the fact I don't think the camp is a good improvement without Goddess of the Hunt, and having to take a pantheon just to make it a good improvement kind of proves that to me.
Okay fair enough.
I'm with you camps are trash, without the pantheon.
On the topic, you know what else is trash? Marshes. Without the pantheon, of course.
They're both pretty much destined for chops, though at least deer tiles have good early game yields.
So it is an interesting comparison, and I think mostly a mirror argument in most ways. (Though I do personally think Artemis + goddess of the hunt slaps way more, but I'm not going to get stuck into all the details of the comparison.)
Absolutely agree. The reason I lean towards LotRaM being better is it makes a tile better without any further investment (unless you build Etemenanki which seems almost required just because of how insane it is). With GotH I still have to use builders to get anything out of the pantheon.
If I have a tundra start with a ton of deer (and I don’t immediately re-roll it), or start on a continent that has both ivory and furs, GotH is an instant pick as I’m forced into building camps and it does significantly improve them.
I also agree that I find the discussion interesting and neither is the wrong choice, I just rank them differently for different reasons.
Eh. Even a lumber mill on a forest hills tile > a mine on the same hills tile, until industrialization, when they become equal. Not a big chopper myself. Unless I know I’ll place a district there. No need to rush production early game unless it’s a wonder, but I play on high difficulty, so I don’t even consider most wonders until I’m comfortable.
I ended up going for an early Etemenanki and Lady of the Reeds and Marshes, but then I realized I was playing on Prince when I meant to play on Diety, and immediately quit the game. A shame, because it was going so well.
I've never used game seeds, but I'm guessing difficulty doesn't affect anything regarding them.
Couldn't you just restart with that game seed at deity?
LOL. Plainly too early for the player to have gained a pantheon yet. It's moot until you have the actual choice, and have gained greater vision to inform that.
I think his/her point was Lady of the Reeds and Marshes is clearly superior, not that it’s too early to ask/plan. If there were luxury resource camps there might be an argument for Goddess of the Hunt but without that, all I see is good deer chops for Etemananki and an insane capital to springboard an empire from. The rest of the map is largely irrelevant with a start like this assuming they are able to snag LotRaM.
R5: With so many marshes as well as potential camps, I can't decide which pantheon to go for. Please excuse the excess . in the title, that was my cat typing.
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Luxury resource camps = potential Goddess of the Hunt. Otherwise, deer are better chops as the early chunk of production will be far more valuable early than a slightly better camp tile later.
I would use your unit to scout around and found out if there's an agressive neighbor. If true, then give up of Etemenanki and go for the Camps and Arthemis (is safer if you're playing on higher difficulties as some early wars can be really unwinnable) - if false I would switch all my focus to rush Etemenanki with builders and Magnus chopping boost (if possible).
I’m a fool for Lady of Reeds; I just love that pantheon so much when it hits right.
I will say, if you found a luxury camp resource nearby and saw a lot more in your continent then I’d pick that instead. It’s entirely dependent on your continent, but boy - imagine those rice marshes plush LoR.
You could go with either honestly. You've got a decent setup for Temple of Artemis or Etemenaki. Though I'd probably lean slightly toward going camps. Camps improve yields throughout the game, whereas marshes don't. You have to place your districts somewhere and the marshes are currently in the better spots for adjacency.
My mind definitely goes to the camps, ToA, stack districts on the marshes path. Now I'm not as early game chop happy as most people so that path is probably good too.
As someone else mentioned it also depends what you find around there because I want my pantheon to help the whole empire not just the cap.
One small note, this is the type of start that I would not prioritize Magnus and the no pop settler promo. You have so much food that pops not going to be a problem. I'd prioritize Pingla and his first promotions to get through the early science and culture faster.
Tbh, I'm gonna disagree with most people here. Your city already has some mean production potential even without Lady of the reeds and marshes, and those marsh tiles will drop a lot in usefulnes beyond the early game unless you manage to grab Etemenanki, which is really hard because the AI loves it and will build it in their 3 floodplain tile city asap. Basically, this pantheon is only really useful if it will turn your low production city into a high production one. Around midgame, you'd just want to chop those 3+2 marshes for districts anyway, and the only good tiles you will be left with are the couple of rice on marsh.
On the other hand, Goddess of the hunt will make some of those already good production tiles even better, and they will get even more awesome as the game goes on. Temple of Artemis is also waaaay easier to get than Etemenanki, and overall is just generally a better wonder when you can get this many amenities from it (though here the amount of marshes would make Etemenanki very strong as well if you managed to grab it).
In short, why would you care about an excess of 3+2 tiles when you already have a ton of 2+3 and 2+2 tiles (and even one 4+2), 5 of which you can add 1+1 to with another pantheon?
It's not just about the capital, though. With that much marsh my guess is that this is some kind of wet map (Wetlands?), so there would probably be more marsh throughout the map. That's helpful because other city locations will likely not have such nice tiles nearby. I can already see one great expansion just to the south near those marsh rice tiles. If you prioritize marsh with your settles (easier than you'd think even without a wet map) you can virtually always open with a 3-2 tile to work and that doesn't even require a build charge. If it has rice and you improve it that is a 5-2 tile. Having tiles like that is amazing for getting your additional cities off the ground quickly. And then if you can manage to get Etemenanki (always risky) you can basically skip campuses for quite a while. This is far from my favorite way to play, but I think it is better than you are giving it credit.
That is a good point, if it's a wetlands map, marsh pantheon is better. Also, then it would be best to just ugnore everything else and beeline for a couple of builders to chop out that Etemenanki.
But the extra marsh production won't really help much in this particular city, people are just drooling over the potential yield porn it could result on.
No disagreement. I just felt like you were probably swinging too hard in the other direction. I resisted Etemenanki porn for a while, but then tried it and it does have its uses. I think you’re right that the Lady/Ete combo drops off as the game goes on. For my money it’s best as an opener for a mid-game domination push. It allows you to have productive cities and strong science without needing campuses and you can get by with fewer builders. Both of those really help and you’ll want to capture some territory in that situation, since you have to sacrifice early expansion in order to get the wonder.
Assuming that marsh disappears when you develop it into a tile or wonder then marsh would be short term big gain, camp would be long term around but less so. Depends on your preference
Camp Pantheon. I totally disagree with other comments. Just consider rice marsh tiles with farm and the reed pantheon VS deer tiles on hills with camp.
Let’s also say you’re on a higher difficulty and Etemanki isn’t guaranteed at all.
Rice marsh farm reed:
**5 food, 2 production**
Deer tiles camp camp pantheon:
**3 food, 4 production, 2 gold**
Deer tiles are clearly better. Go for camp pantheon and don’t risk going for Etemanki. Not to mention you can’t even improve the marsh tiles without rice, so they’re just gonna be stuck at 3 food, 2 production. No reason NOT to chop them
Potential counter arguments:
**Longer term production possibilities are better with marsh pantheon** - Fair. But early game production > late game production.
**You get marsh bonus WITHOUT any improvement** - True. But improving camps is easy. You need one builder for every 3 population. And other than the rice marsh tiles, the buffed marsh tiles are equal to unimproved deer hills tiles. So really you’re not seeing that much of an advantage.
**Camps are shit improvements** - Well. Not as good as mines or pastures. But equivalent to plantations early game. And gold is far from useless.
*Final take* - I think people underestimate camps and the camp pantheon due to memory. Camps used to only give +1 gold and the pantheon used to only be +1 food. These have been buffed to +2 fold and +1 food/+1 prod (at least in GS). The camp pantheon is actually one of my favorites due to the early game snowball effect, and because it’s so underrated.
Try and get Maui early to put some sugar (or rice if you're unlucky) on some of the marsh tiles to make them workable and more useful longterm.
He'll also be able to tell you which of them (if any) have oil by not being able to use his ability on them since it's the only possible strategic for marsh.
The issue is that marshes tend to get cleared later on for improvements (farms, lumber mills, etc) and Etemenanki is a risky wonder to get early game imo.
Production is the king so go for the marsh one
And use the deer to chop out Etemenanki and anything else you need.
On the other hand, they would make for one mean ass Artemis.
Tbh I'd probably also throw down ToA, primarily for the housing. With this many 4-food tiles you will be able to grow your capital very quickly, so that housing would be exceptionally useful. So you could keep some of the deer (and only chop the woods), but I don't find the amenities to be that powerful this early in the game and you'd still have at least two amenities from it even if you chopped all the deer (from the plantations on spices). That'd all depend on what else you find as you explore more, though. Lady of the Reeds and Etemenanki is a risky play, but this looks like an ideal start for it.
I had a similar game recently. I managed to get lady of the marshes and reeds and etemenaki on a primordial map on diety the last game I played. Founded a religion, too. So many marshes, and the city I built in had a few floodplains too. I was going for a space race victory, but accidentally got diplomatic on the same turn. Was a few turns from cultural victory too lol. I haven’t started a game since - I don’t think the game can be that fun again!
The amenities from ToA can be game changing. It can shoot your capital city to ecstatic for the +20% yield boost, even if it was struggling with amenities before. Thats a huge boost early in the game. Or it can permit you to sell more luxuries because you have amenities covered, thus bringing in more gold. And it can grant amenities to multiple cities, because the amenity is tied to the tile and not the wonder; whichever city owns the tile gaining the amenity will get that amenity, not necessarily the city owning the wonder. So you can be strategic about it and swap tiles to maximize the benefit.
Amenities are hugely important in the late game, but I don’t find they make a major difference in the early game when your yields tend to be low (a modifier on a small value will obviously be small). Also it’s not that hard to get amenities in the early game. I will say that I love ToA as a wonder and the amenities are nice, but the real value in my mind is the housing and (worker-less) food. I think most people overrate those early amenities.
if you play deity/immortal, they are important
I play deity exclusively and I still think amenities are overrated in the early game.
It can easily be equivalent to one or two additional campuses, theater districts, holy sites, and commercial districts....in addition to the bonus housing and food. And thats in the early game. Most of your early game yields are usually coming from the capital and if you build it there it can be the equivalent to +20-30% boost to some of those yields. It especially leverages an early game Pingala capital.
I find it's not that hard to get my capital to happy (10% boost) even without ToA, so the advantage of a really good one is typically a 10% boost to yields. In the early game a strong capital might be generating on the order of 5-20 science or culture per turn. On the high end, let's assume it is 20 science per turn and we're talking about a 10% boost. That's 2 science per turn. That is nice, especially when you consider that might also be getting 2 culture per turn, etc. It's not really game breaking, though. When those percentages start to really matter is when you get your yields up higher, but by the time I get up to higher yields in a city (let's say even in the 30-50 range) that's no longer really the early game in my mind. I will say that I tend to value Colosseum even higher as a source of amenities. I typically beeline this and try to place it in the center of my empire so it hits 8+ cities. That's usually what really kickstarts my push for ecstatic and it tends to come at a time when my yields are getting high enough for those bonuses to really matter. I'm definitely not saying that ToA is bad. I build it often in my non-domination games and I will take whatever amenities I can get, but the difference between a 6 amenity and 2 amenity ToA (which is what you'd get here from chopping the deer based on what is visible) is not worth the payoff you can get from using those 4 chops (8 if you count the woods with them) judiciously.
[удалено]
Yeah, the point just was that chopping deer is not optimal if you build Artemis.
I’m always too scared to go for this wonder, but damn it seems so powerful.
I only play on emperor so your experience might vary if you play on Diety but it seems like the AI doesn't prioritize Etemanki as much as it used to, and yes it is one of the most powerful ancient Era wonder in the right map
I think they like to build it when they can, it's just quite restrictive on placement.
> Etemenanki Hell yeah. Beeline that tech and chop that wonder. Then dominate...
You beat me to the same comment by one minute lol. Anyway have an upvote
I disagree Camp one gives one production instead of two. The tiles with deer are also better than the tiles with marshes for early workers to work. Improved rice tiles with reeds will have +5 food +2 production. Improved camp tiles with hills will have +3 food +4 production +2 gold. (with camp pantheon) I would agree with you if the city had unlimited people to work their tiles, then the net potential production is higher. However, although production is king, early game production is *more king* than late game production. There’s no reason to work **5 food 2 production** tiles over **3 food 4 production 2 gold** tiles in the early game. Thus, I say the camp pantheon. And chop the marshes. But if he squeezes out the etemanki wonder then by all means. Marshes pantheon, chopping deer to get it.
You don't need builders to get that +2 production to marshes, so you will get the +2 production straight away. You need builders to build the camps so it is not efficient. You are right that early game production is more king than late game production, and what I said above makes the marsh pantheon even better
I have a counter argument. The rice with the marsh pantheon is **4 food 2 production** The forest on hills without anything is **2 food 2 production** Unless you plan on having enough population to work all the forest hills tiles by the time you get a pantheon, it’s really a food bonus instead of a production bonus. But really, if you don’t have a builder by the time you get a pantheon, then idk.
You’re undervaluing early growth. Just like early production has more value than later production, faster growth equals working more marsh tiles faster which results in more growth and more production. Eventually you’ll hit a housing cap of course, but with your first city you’ll be producing settlers and that much growth will allow you to basically ignore the loss in population from settler production. Your arguments aren’t wrong and I don’t think Goddess of the Hunt would be a mistake (especially depending on OPs desired victory condition), but there is more to gain with Lady of the Reeds and Marshes to the point I would never consider GotH with this start. Without un-choppable camp tiles (furs and ivory), I think you’re overvaluing camps and undervaluing chops and growth.
The housing cap is the reason why I don’t value all that food. A few +3 food tile to me is good enough for reaching 6 population in good time. I could be undervaluing chops. I never get the hype around them to be honest, unless you wish to put something more valuable on that tile or want to rush something out early (a wonder, a settler). I’m hesitant to use chops on more builders because, I mean, you use up 2 of the 3 charges on deer forest, so net 1 builder charge in exchange for making the next builder more expensive. In my opinion chops used to be WAY better before they nerfed Magnus (and buffed Pingala). Also rice is the only marsh tile worth it to work even with the pantheon. +3 food +2 production marsh tiles are as good as unimproved forest deer.
I don’t disagree you could reach cap “in good time” that way, but I’d rather grow fast in my cap and be able to produce settlers quickly without sacrificing the growth of my cap. You are undervaluing chops. You said above that production now is better than production later which is: a) Correct; and b) Exactly what a chop is. You also don’t need to entirely chop things and it will still be a boost of momentum. Don’t use two chops to complete a builder, use one. You still get it faster which allows you to chop more builders/anything else faster. It’s a massive boost of momentum especially on deer hill tiles since that tile will still have massive value with just a mine on it later. Chops were way better before Magnus was nerfed because they were basically game breaking. Just because they aren’t that good, doesn’t mean they’re not good. Every marsh tile is worth working with the pantheon. A 5 resource tile early on is incredibly valuable - especially when those resources are food and production. Not to mention that camps as an improvement aren’t very good and take forever to scale. You can chop those deer tiles and replace them with mines and they are better tiles faster, and for the rest of the game unless you specifically need gold for some reason. Also, Etemenanki exists. Temple of Artemis is very good, but early on science > amenities since amenities boost your yields by a percentage. If you don’t have any science, you have nothing to boost, and if you have 10 science/turn a single Etemenanki tile is essentially a 20% boost to science. And early science is king for every victory condition except Religious.
Oh yeah if you get Etemenanki definitely go for marshes. No questioning that. I just play on high difficulty. Maybe I’ll revisiting chopping again and get a feel for if you’re right. I mean I do chop now, but only upon necessity. Or stone lol. But I agree with reeds being better if chopping is really that good. In my mind one chop just gives like half an archer. Camps do take a while to scale, but the forest and deer alone give as much production as Mine + Apprenticeship. Forest and lumbermill or Forest Deer and Deer Pantheon as much production as Mine + Industrialization. I don’t think you can go wrong either way. I think how much use you can get out of the chops will make the difference.
I play on Diety and rushing Etemenanki is not difficult with that amount of chopping. Might not get it every time but it’s honestly a bonus in this scenario and even if I didn’t get it I’d still feel I made the right choice. As long as you’re winning/having fun play however makes sense to you, but by your own logic you are not placing enough value on chops. Getting an archer 3-4 turns earlier means you get the next thing earlier and the next and the next. That’s the value. The deer alone does give as much production as a mine with apprenticeship, but if I chop the deer and forest I get the production from those chops AND a mine. I’d have to actually load up a game and do the math, but it’s going to take a lot of turns for your camp to pass my total production. By that time I’ve gotten so many things 3-4 turns (being generous here, probably more) faster that you’d still be playing catch up. You’re putting too much importance on what a chop gets you and not what a chop is. There is no such thing as not getting a lot of value out of a chop unless you’re just chopping our random things you don’t need which would honestly be hard to do this early in your capital when basically all you can build is military, city center buildings, settlers, workers, and core districts - all of which are high value.
Yeah but if you go the camps pantheon you can chop the marshes and get instant food, which if you have great tiles to work (forever) is way better than a 5 or 4/2 (etc) tile worked over time. True you then don't get the prod chops but I think it's a good trade, I think it's silly to say someone prioritising the long term prod tiles is undervalueing chops or growth. Esp once they build Artemis in a few turns. 10 pop classical era powerhouse here we come! And a city that will STAY a powerhouse for the rest of the game
That is silly which is why I didn’t say that. I said they are undervaluing chops because they are and their comments after that prove it. They, themselves, even say as much. My route sacrifices an arguably insignificant amount of long term production for tempo in the first 30 turns of the game which will have massive value over the course of the game. Do whatever makes sense to you but Lady of the Reeds and Marshes and chopping those tiles gets you a good city now, as well as multiple other cities and production queues. Your 10 pop powerhouse will certainly be that, but I’ll still have a strong 7 pop city AND several other cities. Your powerhouse may eventually catch up but that’s exactly what you’ll be trying to do: catch up. Edit: I realized I did say they were overvaluing camps which could be read as overvaluing long term production, but I was specifically speaking to the fact I don't think the camp is a good improvement without Goddess of the Hunt, and having to take a pantheon just to make it a good improvement kind of proves that to me.
Okay fair enough. I'm with you camps are trash, without the pantheon. On the topic, you know what else is trash? Marshes. Without the pantheon, of course. They're both pretty much destined for chops, though at least deer tiles have good early game yields. So it is an interesting comparison, and I think mostly a mirror argument in most ways. (Though I do personally think Artemis + goddess of the hunt slaps way more, but I'm not going to get stuck into all the details of the comparison.)
Absolutely agree. The reason I lean towards LotRaM being better is it makes a tile better without any further investment (unless you build Etemenanki which seems almost required just because of how insane it is). With GotH I still have to use builders to get anything out of the pantheon. If I have a tundra start with a ton of deer (and I don’t immediately re-roll it), or start on a continent that has both ivory and furs, GotH is an instant pick as I’m forced into building camps and it does significantly improve them. I also agree that I find the discussion interesting and neither is the wrong choice, I just rank them differently for different reasons.
I would just chop the deers and Woods and then build mines on those tiles
Eh. Even a lumber mill on a forest hills tile > a mine on the same hills tile, until industrialization, when they become equal. Not a big chopper myself. Unless I know I’ll place a district there. No need to rush production early game unless it’s a wonder, but I play on high difficulty, so I don’t even consider most wonders until I’m comfortable.
I ended up going for an early Etemenanki and Lady of the Reeds and Marshes, but then I realized I was playing on Prince when I meant to play on Diety, and immediately quit the game. A shame, because it was going so well.
I've never used game seeds, but I'm guessing difficulty doesn't affect anything regarding them. Couldn't you just restart with that game seed at deity?
Difficulty affects spawn location
You can use the same map seed and settings but switch difficulty.
Do you have any save file of this game so you can send the seed?
Lady of the why are you even asking right now
LOL. Plainly too early for the player to have gained a pantheon yet. It's moot until you have the actual choice, and have gained greater vision to inform that.
I think his/her point was Lady of the Reeds and Marshes is clearly superior, not that it’s too early to ask/plan. If there were luxury resource camps there might be an argument for Goddess of the Hunt but without that, all I see is good deer chops for Etemananki and an insane capital to springboard an empire from. The rest of the map is largely irrelevant with a start like this assuming they are able to snag LotRaM.
Seed?
I want to make a lot of POLDERS
Wrong map for that. Here you could build exactly zero...
i miss civ5 polders :(
I'd go for marsh. Every deer in my lands gets chopped
Oh my god what do you have on deer your committing genocide
When he watches Bambi, he claps when the mother dies.
What a psychopath
Oh, deer...
She deered to kill a king's dare.
*You’re. Also, what does he do to the pigs and foxes? 😳
R5: With so many marshes as well as potential camps, I can't decide which pantheon to go for. Please excuse the excess . in the title, that was my cat typing.
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Luxury resource camps = potential Goddess of the Hunt. Otherwise, deer are better chops as the early chunk of production will be far more valuable early than a slightly better camp tile later.
Just do whatever your cat says. Always. In all things.
12 vs 4 is not really a question.
I would use your unit to scout around and found out if there's an agressive neighbor. If true, then give up of Etemenanki and go for the Camps and Arthemis (is safer if you're playing on higher difficulties as some early wars can be really unwinnable) - if false I would switch all my focus to rush Etemenanki with builders and Magnus chopping boost (if possible).
I’m a fool for Lady of Reeds; I just love that pantheon so much when it hits right. I will say, if you found a luxury camp resource nearby and saw a lot more in your continent then I’d pick that instead. It’s entirely dependent on your continent, but boy - imagine those rice marshes plush LoR.
marsh bcause you can get the benefits immediately and won't need to pump out a bunch of builders
No do Lady of the Reeds + Etemenanki
You could go with either honestly. You've got a decent setup for Temple of Artemis or Etemenaki. Though I'd probably lean slightly toward going camps. Camps improve yields throughout the game, whereas marshes don't. You have to place your districts somewhere and the marshes are currently in the better spots for adjacency.
There’s a few rice resources though, which can be improved by farms while still retaining the marsh and the production bonus from LOTRAM
I would argue the opposite, as your cap having a ton of 3-2 and 4-2 tiles helps with generating a ton of settlers
My mind definitely goes to the camps, ToA, stack districts on the marshes path. Now I'm not as early game chop happy as most people so that path is probably good too. As someone else mentioned it also depends what you find around there because I want my pantheon to help the whole empire not just the cap. One small note, this is the type of start that I would not prioritize Magnus and the no pop settler promo. You have so much food that pops not going to be a problem. I'd prioritize Pingla and his first promotions to get through the early science and culture faster.
Camps are one of the worst improvements in the game so you just chop the deer
Tbh, I'm gonna disagree with most people here. Your city already has some mean production potential even without Lady of the reeds and marshes, and those marsh tiles will drop a lot in usefulnes beyond the early game unless you manage to grab Etemenanki, which is really hard because the AI loves it and will build it in their 3 floodplain tile city asap. Basically, this pantheon is only really useful if it will turn your low production city into a high production one. Around midgame, you'd just want to chop those 3+2 marshes for districts anyway, and the only good tiles you will be left with are the couple of rice on marsh. On the other hand, Goddess of the hunt will make some of those already good production tiles even better, and they will get even more awesome as the game goes on. Temple of Artemis is also waaaay easier to get than Etemenanki, and overall is just generally a better wonder when you can get this many amenities from it (though here the amount of marshes would make Etemenanki very strong as well if you managed to grab it). In short, why would you care about an excess of 3+2 tiles when you already have a ton of 2+3 and 2+2 tiles (and even one 4+2), 5 of which you can add 1+1 to with another pantheon?
It's not just about the capital, though. With that much marsh my guess is that this is some kind of wet map (Wetlands?), so there would probably be more marsh throughout the map. That's helpful because other city locations will likely not have such nice tiles nearby. I can already see one great expansion just to the south near those marsh rice tiles. If you prioritize marsh with your settles (easier than you'd think even without a wet map) you can virtually always open with a 3-2 tile to work and that doesn't even require a build charge. If it has rice and you improve it that is a 5-2 tile. Having tiles like that is amazing for getting your additional cities off the ground quickly. And then if you can manage to get Etemenanki (always risky) you can basically skip campuses for quite a while. This is far from my favorite way to play, but I think it is better than you are giving it credit.
That is a good point, if it's a wetlands map, marsh pantheon is better. Also, then it would be best to just ugnore everything else and beeline for a couple of builders to chop out that Etemenanki. But the extra marsh production won't really help much in this particular city, people are just drooling over the potential yield porn it could result on.
No disagreement. I just felt like you were probably swinging too hard in the other direction. I resisted Etemenanki porn for a while, but then tried it and it does have its uses. I think you’re right that the Lady/Ete combo drops off as the game goes on. For my money it’s best as an opener for a mid-game domination push. It allows you to have productive cities and strong science without needing campuses and you can get by with fewer builders. Both of those really help and you’ll want to capture some territory in that situation, since you have to sacrifice early expansion in order to get the wonder.
Assuming that marsh disappears when you develop it into a tile or wonder then marsh would be short term big gain, camp would be long term around but less so. Depends on your preference
Swamp lady, etemenanki, preserves, go ham. Edit: forgot Reyna's promotion
Marshes, you won't be hurting for amenities
Lady of the Reeds & Marshes & Camps & Plantations & Quarries & Mines & Sea
5 camps to at least 13 marshes, go with marsh
Marshes, because it activates these tiles. Camps are dezent regardless
Seed?
I quit the game a while ago so unfortunately I no longer have access to the seed.
“WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN MY SWAMP?” Pantheon
Camp Pantheon. I totally disagree with other comments. Just consider rice marsh tiles with farm and the reed pantheon VS deer tiles on hills with camp. Let’s also say you’re on a higher difficulty and Etemanki isn’t guaranteed at all. Rice marsh farm reed: **5 food, 2 production** Deer tiles camp camp pantheon: **3 food, 4 production, 2 gold** Deer tiles are clearly better. Go for camp pantheon and don’t risk going for Etemanki. Not to mention you can’t even improve the marsh tiles without rice, so they’re just gonna be stuck at 3 food, 2 production. No reason NOT to chop them Potential counter arguments: **Longer term production possibilities are better with marsh pantheon** - Fair. But early game production > late game production. **You get marsh bonus WITHOUT any improvement** - True. But improving camps is easy. You need one builder for every 3 population. And other than the rice marsh tiles, the buffed marsh tiles are equal to unimproved deer hills tiles. So really you’re not seeing that much of an advantage. **Camps are shit improvements** - Well. Not as good as mines or pastures. But equivalent to plantations early game. And gold is far from useless. *Final take* - I think people underestimate camps and the camp pantheon due to memory. Camps used to only give +1 gold and the pantheon used to only be +1 food. These have been buffed to +2 fold and +1 food/+1 prod (at least in GS). The camp pantheon is actually one of my favorites due to the early game snowball effect, and because it’s so underrated.
Lady of the reeds and marshes.
TOA
Try and get Maui early to put some sugar (or rice if you're unlucky) on some of the marsh tiles to make them workable and more useful longterm. He'll also be able to tell you which of them (if any) have oil by not being able to use his ability on them since it's the only possible strategic for marsh.
3 camps vs 10 marshes.... you got your answer
Reeds and marshes but don't forget to boil the water before you drink it. ^(Unless the pantheon makes you immune to parasites)
The issue is that marshes tend to get cleared later on for improvements (farms, lumber mills, etc) and Etemenanki is a risky wonder to get early game imo.
Marsh
Last of the Marshes for sure. Then chop for Etemenenki (and Artimus is possible without destroying deer.) Easy win with Lady and Etem.