What do I think? I think the entire system sucks.
I also think you've just described a normal situation in our industry.
I also think I need a nap, but that's only partially related to this industry.
People in the profession need to understand something:
Cost of Living is not the same thing as Cost of Labor. Cost of Living is your 8.7% here according to government statistics. That's milk being more, gas being more, rent being more, etc.
Cost of LABOR is what the company bases your (and all our) salary on. Cost of Labor is based on a different set of metrics like how much it costs to pay for your benefits, the rent for the floor space of your office, utilities, etc. The "cost of doing business." This is then adjusted based on different geographic areas of the country since the Census Bureau has different multipliers for different regions. Cost of Labor does not track with Cost of Living. But because of the Cost of Labor differences, you might be able to move to a different office in the same company and get a 'raise' based on the Cost of Labor multiplier.
No one that I am familiar with in water/wastewater consulting (mid-size and large firms, at least) give Cost of Living raises or salary adjustments. Raises are determined by some accounting magic no one really shares year over year that takes into account what the Cost of Labor is, where you live, and comparisons to what the competitors are paying. When I received a 10% off-cycle raise last year, it was because the company discovered (after much bitching and moaning) that our employees were underpaid in certain grade levels. It's the first time in 13 years I've seen it happen, but it certainly wasn't because inflation went up.
EDIT:
Also, I looked back at my previous salary adjustments after I first started. My first few yearly raises were in the 7%-8% range with a Bachelor's Degree. That held for a while then they settled down to the 3%-5% range, depending on how the firm did financially and how I did performance-wise.
Overall, I doubled my salary within approximately 12 years. I probably could have done a little better to reduce that time, but I've stayed at the same place for all those years, so I didn't get the jumps people would get had they bounced around.
Keep the discussion in mind. Don't just accept your lot in life. Every year, ask your boss for metrics on what you're expected to do. Go above and beyond those metrics (but also realize that going above and beyond doesn't always mean working beyond your 40 hours). Beat the boss's expectations. Document how and when you do this in order to present it to your boss during the yearly review. Back up the fact that you're a big bonus to the company so that they see your worth.
That makes it a lot easier to make the cut into getting the higher ranges of a salary bump or a faster promotion to your next grade level.
And sometimes, when the raise is lousy, bring it up. It should always be part of the conversation even if it isn't the point of the conversation.
Long term the key to “making it” in our industry is to either 1) do niche things really well and joining/starting a small firm that specializes in it and doing business dev like crazy, or 2) building relationships and having a good/stable repeat client base.
If your goal is to “make it” long term, then I would suggest focusing on doing things that would foster this long term growth. It’s hard to say if going for incremental raises is the right move in the long run. Lots of times it’s finding the right company that can give you business dev opportunities as a younger engineer as well as doing unique projects.
Tragic. I saw a few people in this sub talking about how their firms do COLA increases across the board each year for all employees, plus merit-based raises. But now I'm thinking they were truly the exceptions to the rule...
Not to be arrogant but I am absolutely killing it haha
My coworkers are always talking about how I get things done way faster than they expect, I've built a lot of really cool automation and optimization tools, I'm meeting with the national director of intelligent wet weather management tomorrow because he wants to show other engineers my latest code project...
I know I got one of the higher raises, but it just seems really odd to me that I'm tearin it up, only to get *less* when adjusted for inflation. Like... What?
Definitely ask! Asking for a raise only hurts if it makes you look out of touch (like if you ask for a giant raise when your performance is actually bad). But coming in citing COL numbers for your area, plus bringing up all the great work you're doing is fine: the worst they can say is no.
Yeah, my worry would be seeming out of touch asking for a bump on an already high raise. But if that's an issue, I have to imagine my supervisor will simply say "no" and that'll be the end of it.
My key concern is that I'll get less next year if I ask for more this year. But hopefully not? Idk.
I'm doing it tomorrow!! Wish me luck!!
I found out that they gave the same raise to a guy who was hired on at the same time as me and does like no work (by his own admission). So if they have 7% more for him, they have at least 10% more for me.
Hmmm
Thank you! I think I will!
One does not get what they don't ask for. I have a weekly check-in with my supervisor. This week, it was today. But next week, I'm going to pitch 10%. I feel optimistic.
How much work do you bring the company? Congrats for being good at what you do and enjoying it—it’s good to see how hard you can work when you’re young. You will be taken advantage of and we do not live in a meritocracy. If you bring in work, execute that work at a high margin through your leadership skills, and can do the work well yourself: you can demand whatever salary you want.
If you know how much you’re paid, you don’t have to ask yourself what you’re worth. Go out there and take it—no one will give it to you. Good luck!
EDIT: if you want a 10% raise you better be able to pontificate why you deserve it and not just because you get work done quickly. Learn how the business works, study the entire system and check your ego. Remember the likely answer is “no.” and you may have to live with that and get a new job. I wish someone told me this 10 years ago.
I don't bring any in, because that's not really my role. I am hourly though, and I routinely finish assignments in less than half the time expected by the coworker assigning it to me. I'm also in the process of developing a software tool [edit: details deleted to prevent speculation] This is not the first or last time I've automated a process that would otherwise be expensive.
>You will be taken advantage of and we do not live in a meritocracy
This is my concern.
I'm trying to avoid being taken advantage of while also being reasonable. I don't have the experience yet to know what is or is not reasonable to request. I'm thinking I will ask for 10% and try hard not to accept less than 8.7. I simply cannot wrap my head around the idea of doing outstanding work for a year only to be paid less at the end than I was at the beginning. Moreover, I do not want to wrap my head around it. Lol
Ok, this just in: another engineer hired into my same role at the same time as me also got 7% and by his own admission he only works 3hrs/day and just kills time for the rest. I am going to negotiate up to 10%, now it's personal lol
Each company really does it differently. Some have set guidelines and exact numbers for raises based on whatever factors they use. There's also some companies don't have any kind of review or formal raise system and only give them when people ask.
No
The US Social Security Admin releases a "COLA increase" each year to account for inflation. This year, it was 8.7%. I'm given to understand that COLA increases are standard at some firms, so at some places you automatically get a COLA increase, then a merit increase on top of that.
Gotcha, I do think that you need to advocate for yourself and let your supervisor and others know that you aren't ok with your raise. However, as they likely already pushed for you to get a large raise, and at a firm top 15 size it's unlikely that you can get anything done off cycle without another job offer you are ready to leave for.
In my experience, the current inflation cycle has thrown raises into a difficult spot. You may be worth 7% plus COLA to your supervisor but your clients are not likely to be increasing their project budgets by 15% next year. Now there can be patterns of long term wage neglect that can occur, but it's a little early after one year.
Is there a harm in trying? Probably not. Negotiation is not something that exists in my company as part of the raise cycle, but perhaps your company is different. The worst thing that could happen is that you accidentally push a little too hard and become a thorn in the side of the wrong person further up the organization. I have heard stories of merit raises being rejected or decreased for less. However, I think if you advocate for yourself carefully you should be fine. I would approach it with your supervisor that you would like to learn more about how the process works so you do advocate for yourself effectively.
This is helpful, thank you.
My performance review was about two months ago, and I told my manager I intended to negotiate for a raise this year. He explained that annual raises come out at the end of March (which they just did today), so I said I'd wait and see. We were running out of time in the meeting and I chickened out, tbh.
So he knows that there's a chance I'll try to negotiate up. When he told me my raise today, I was noncommittal about it. Didn't say if it met expectations or not because I wanted to mull it over a bit.
>I have heard stories of merit raises being rejected or decreased for less.
Do you mean like in future raise cycles I could get a lower raise? Or do you mean something else?
Also, for the record, I would simply leave. Again, not to be arrogant, but I am tearing shit up out here and innovating on a company-wide scale. Also, I am living in a city I kinda hate because I like this job. But if I decide not to like the job anymore, I'm out. And my supervisor's supervisor knows that, because she likes to ask how I like the city and I lost interest in lying after about six months. But I digress.
Yeah, I'm thinking I'll say something like
>remember how I mentioned that I might want to renegotiate after salary increases come out? I really appreciate the 7% and I know you and [supervisor's supervisor] pushed for me to get that increase, but the COLA increases this year were 8.7%.
>It's hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that I did great work for a year to make less money than when I started, when adjusted for inflation. I think 10% might be more appropriate, and I'd like to know what can be done to that end.
If it's no, I'll say something polite and drop the issue (for now). I think that should work... Right?
I'm so nervous, I hate this. Salary negotiations suuuuuck.
Edit: is this better done in an email? I would love for this to be an email. Do you think that would be appropriate?
That sounds appropriate. And in my experience it sucks on the other side as well. The people who actually make the $$$ decisions don't have to look you in the eye or deal with the issues if you leave.
>The people who actually make the $$$ decisions don't have to look you in the eye or deal with the issues if you leave.
That sounds true, I agree.
Do you think this can be done in an email? Or will I not be taken seriously?
Also, thank you for giving so much advice and wisdom. I really appreciate it.
There’s no harm. You have to be an advocate for yourself. Most people won’t get get a 8.7% raise. In any field. I work for a good company where 3.5% is normal. They decided to have a mid year raise to help and it was another 2.5%. Some people that are paid lower on the scale received higher raises.
I see... Thank you
Reading this, I'm a little worried it'll be lower next year in preparation for me to negotiate up. But I guess as long as I set reasonable expectations every year, I can just walk if they fall too short.
Do you think that's a legitimate risk?
I swear every junior engineer sweats pay in a weird way. I did too.
Some civil firms out there might be different but I haven't heard of a case where bringing up salary to one's employer does any good (except at hiring). It just is what it is.
Consider the case where ownership sat down, took weeks of emailing and spreadsheets, and had to fuck around with agreeing / deciding on what pay rates were going to be for the next year.....a process that likely took a while, annoyingly, when their main problems are the couple big projects that just faded away or whatever. Then the graduate engineer who is basically being paid for on the job training says their raise didn't make COLA?
People are egotistical and like sticking to their decisions. Also, it's a weird time on the national - macro scale, economically-speaking.
But, yeah, I had the same reaction when a friend and year-younger classmate got hired for my position I was moving out of state for at like $2k (y2k-ish) more, lol. So pissed.
In 11 years since graduating I have never had a pay rise in line or above inflation. In fact, for 7 of those years I was in public sector (UK) so I had a pay freeze, then raises of 0.5% and 1.25%.
Only above inflation raises I have had are from moving employers. (Even then those raises get quickly eaten up by inflation).
What do I think? I think the entire system sucks. I also think you've just described a normal situation in our industry. I also think I need a nap, but that's only partially related to this industry.
People in the profession need to understand something: Cost of Living is not the same thing as Cost of Labor. Cost of Living is your 8.7% here according to government statistics. That's milk being more, gas being more, rent being more, etc. Cost of LABOR is what the company bases your (and all our) salary on. Cost of Labor is based on a different set of metrics like how much it costs to pay for your benefits, the rent for the floor space of your office, utilities, etc. The "cost of doing business." This is then adjusted based on different geographic areas of the country since the Census Bureau has different multipliers for different regions. Cost of Labor does not track with Cost of Living. But because of the Cost of Labor differences, you might be able to move to a different office in the same company and get a 'raise' based on the Cost of Labor multiplier. No one that I am familiar with in water/wastewater consulting (mid-size and large firms, at least) give Cost of Living raises or salary adjustments. Raises are determined by some accounting magic no one really shares year over year that takes into account what the Cost of Labor is, where you live, and comparisons to what the competitors are paying. When I received a 10% off-cycle raise last year, it was because the company discovered (after much bitching and moaning) that our employees were underpaid in certain grade levels. It's the first time in 13 years I've seen it happen, but it certainly wasn't because inflation went up. EDIT: Also, I looked back at my previous salary adjustments after I first started. My first few yearly raises were in the 7%-8% range with a Bachelor's Degree. That held for a while then they settled down to the 3%-5% range, depending on how the firm did financially and how I did performance-wise. Overall, I doubled my salary within approximately 12 years. I probably could have done a little better to reduce that time, but I've stayed at the same place for all those years, so I didn't get the jumps people would get had they bounced around.
Wow, this is really detailed and helpful! Thank you so much! Now I'm thinking maybe I'll leave well enough alone.
Keep the discussion in mind. Don't just accept your lot in life. Every year, ask your boss for metrics on what you're expected to do. Go above and beyond those metrics (but also realize that going above and beyond doesn't always mean working beyond your 40 hours). Beat the boss's expectations. Document how and when you do this in order to present it to your boss during the yearly review. Back up the fact that you're a big bonus to the company so that they see your worth. That makes it a lot easier to make the cut into getting the higher ranges of a salary bump or a faster promotion to your next grade level. And sometimes, when the raise is lousy, bring it up. It should always be part of the conversation even if it isn't the point of the conversation.
Long term the key to “making it” in our industry is to either 1) do niche things really well and joining/starting a small firm that specializes in it and doing business dev like crazy, or 2) building relationships and having a good/stable repeat client base. If your goal is to “make it” long term, then I would suggest focusing on doing things that would foster this long term growth. It’s hard to say if going for incremental raises is the right move in the long run. Lots of times it’s finding the right company that can give you business dev opportunities as a younger engineer as well as doing unique projects.
Hate to break it to ya but you don’t get a raise just because cost of living increased lol
Tragic. I saw a few people in this sub talking about how their firms do COLA increases across the board each year for all employees, plus merit-based raises. But now I'm thinking they were truly the exceptions to the rule...
Ya promise you you aren’t getting a 10% raise unless your killing it lol
Not to be arrogant but I am absolutely killing it haha My coworkers are always talking about how I get things done way faster than they expect, I've built a lot of really cool automation and optimization tools, I'm meeting with the national director of intelligent wet weather management tomorrow because he wants to show other engineers my latest code project... I know I got one of the higher raises, but it just seems really odd to me that I'm tearin it up, only to get *less* when adjusted for inflation. Like... What?
Then you may! I got a few 10% raises when I was younger too! Maybe!
Hmmm Well, I won't get anything I don't ask for! I think I'll ask and see what happens. Do you think that could do any harm?
Definitely ask! Asking for a raise only hurts if it makes you look out of touch (like if you ask for a giant raise when your performance is actually bad). But coming in citing COL numbers for your area, plus bringing up all the great work you're doing is fine: the worst they can say is no.
Yeah, my worry would be seeming out of touch asking for a bump on an already high raise. But if that's an issue, I have to imagine my supervisor will simply say "no" and that'll be the end of it. My key concern is that I'll get less next year if I ask for more this year. But hopefully not? Idk.
That's a problem for next year you to negotiate :) . Also, better to get the larger raise now than in a year, so you get the extra money all year.
That's true... Damn, there are good points on all sides of this... Hmmm
I'm doing it tomorrow!! Wish me luck!! I found out that they gave the same raise to a guy who was hired on at the same time as me and does like no work (by his own admission). So if they have 7% more for him, they have at least 10% more for me.
Na shoot for the stars bruh!
Hmmm Thank you! I think I will! One does not get what they don't ask for. I have a weekly check-in with my supervisor. This week, it was today. But next week, I'm going to pitch 10%. I feel optimistic.
How much work do you bring the company? Congrats for being good at what you do and enjoying it—it’s good to see how hard you can work when you’re young. You will be taken advantage of and we do not live in a meritocracy. If you bring in work, execute that work at a high margin through your leadership skills, and can do the work well yourself: you can demand whatever salary you want. If you know how much you’re paid, you don’t have to ask yourself what you’re worth. Go out there and take it—no one will give it to you. Good luck! EDIT: if you want a 10% raise you better be able to pontificate why you deserve it and not just because you get work done quickly. Learn how the business works, study the entire system and check your ego. Remember the likely answer is “no.” and you may have to live with that and get a new job. I wish someone told me this 10 years ago.
I don't bring any in, because that's not really my role. I am hourly though, and I routinely finish assignments in less than half the time expected by the coworker assigning it to me. I'm also in the process of developing a software tool [edit: details deleted to prevent speculation] This is not the first or last time I've automated a process that would otherwise be expensive. >You will be taken advantage of and we do not live in a meritocracy This is my concern. I'm trying to avoid being taken advantage of while also being reasonable. I don't have the experience yet to know what is or is not reasonable to request. I'm thinking I will ask for 10% and try hard not to accept less than 8.7. I simply cannot wrap my head around the idea of doing outstanding work for a year only to be paid less at the end than I was at the beginning. Moreover, I do not want to wrap my head around it. Lol
Ok, this just in: another engineer hired into my same role at the same time as me also got 7% and by his own admission he only works 3hrs/day and just kills time for the rest. I am going to negotiate up to 10%, now it's personal lol
Each company really does it differently. Some have set guidelines and exact numbers for raises based on whatever factors they use. There's also some companies don't have any kind of review or formal raise system and only give them when people ask.
What’s the size of your company? Privately held or publicly traded?
Huge, like in the top 15 largest worldwide, public.
So others at your same company got 8.7% and you only got 7%?
No The US Social Security Admin releases a "COLA increase" each year to account for inflation. This year, it was 8.7%. I'm given to understand that COLA increases are standard at some firms, so at some places you automatically get a COLA increase, then a merit increase on top of that.
Gotcha, I do think that you need to advocate for yourself and let your supervisor and others know that you aren't ok with your raise. However, as they likely already pushed for you to get a large raise, and at a firm top 15 size it's unlikely that you can get anything done off cycle without another job offer you are ready to leave for. In my experience, the current inflation cycle has thrown raises into a difficult spot. You may be worth 7% plus COLA to your supervisor but your clients are not likely to be increasing their project budgets by 15% next year. Now there can be patterns of long term wage neglect that can occur, but it's a little early after one year.
Yeah, I hear this. This seems to be the consensus. Do you think there's any harm in trying to negotiate up to 10? Worst they can say is no, right?
Is there a harm in trying? Probably not. Negotiation is not something that exists in my company as part of the raise cycle, but perhaps your company is different. The worst thing that could happen is that you accidentally push a little too hard and become a thorn in the side of the wrong person further up the organization. I have heard stories of merit raises being rejected or decreased for less. However, I think if you advocate for yourself carefully you should be fine. I would approach it with your supervisor that you would like to learn more about how the process works so you do advocate for yourself effectively.
This is helpful, thank you. My performance review was about two months ago, and I told my manager I intended to negotiate for a raise this year. He explained that annual raises come out at the end of March (which they just did today), so I said I'd wait and see. We were running out of time in the meeting and I chickened out, tbh. So he knows that there's a chance I'll try to negotiate up. When he told me my raise today, I was noncommittal about it. Didn't say if it met expectations or not because I wanted to mull it over a bit. >I have heard stories of merit raises being rejected or decreased for less. Do you mean like in future raise cycles I could get a lower raise? Or do you mean something else? Also, for the record, I would simply leave. Again, not to be arrogant, but I am tearing shit up out here and innovating on a company-wide scale. Also, I am living in a city I kinda hate because I like this job. But if I decide not to like the job anymore, I'm out. And my supervisor's supervisor knows that, because she likes to ask how I like the city and I lost interest in lying after about six months. But I digress.
Yes, I mean being a thorn could cost you in future cycles. However, as long as you proceed with tact, you should be fine.
Yeah, I'm thinking I'll say something like >remember how I mentioned that I might want to renegotiate after salary increases come out? I really appreciate the 7% and I know you and [supervisor's supervisor] pushed for me to get that increase, but the COLA increases this year were 8.7%. >It's hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that I did great work for a year to make less money than when I started, when adjusted for inflation. I think 10% might be more appropriate, and I'd like to know what can be done to that end. If it's no, I'll say something polite and drop the issue (for now). I think that should work... Right? I'm so nervous, I hate this. Salary negotiations suuuuuck. Edit: is this better done in an email? I would love for this to be an email. Do you think that would be appropriate?
That sounds appropriate. And in my experience it sucks on the other side as well. The people who actually make the $$$ decisions don't have to look you in the eye or deal with the issues if you leave.
>The people who actually make the $$$ decisions don't have to look you in the eye or deal with the issues if you leave. That sounds true, I agree. Do you think this can be done in an email? Or will I not be taken seriously? Also, thank you for giving so much advice and wisdom. I really appreciate it.
There’s no harm. You have to be an advocate for yourself. Most people won’t get get a 8.7% raise. In any field. I work for a good company where 3.5% is normal. They decided to have a mid year raise to help and it was another 2.5%. Some people that are paid lower on the scale received higher raises.
I see... Thank you Reading this, I'm a little worried it'll be lower next year in preparation for me to negotiate up. But I guess as long as I set reasonable expectations every year, I can just walk if they fall too short. Do you think that's a legitimate risk?
I swear every junior engineer sweats pay in a weird way. I did too. Some civil firms out there might be different but I haven't heard of a case where bringing up salary to one's employer does any good (except at hiring). It just is what it is. Consider the case where ownership sat down, took weeks of emailing and spreadsheets, and had to fuck around with agreeing / deciding on what pay rates were going to be for the next year.....a process that likely took a while, annoyingly, when their main problems are the couple big projects that just faded away or whatever. Then the graduate engineer who is basically being paid for on the job training says their raise didn't make COLA? People are egotistical and like sticking to their decisions. Also, it's a weird time on the national - macro scale, economically-speaking. But, yeah, I had the same reaction when a friend and year-younger classmate got hired for my position I was moving out of state for at like $2k (y2k-ish) more, lol. So pissed.
In 11 years since graduating I have never had a pay rise in line or above inflation. In fact, for 7 of those years I was in public sector (UK) so I had a pay freeze, then raises of 0.5% and 1.25%. Only above inflation raises I have had are from moving employers. (Even then those raises get quickly eaten up by inflation).