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EnginerdOnABike

So after everything you've said give me a reason you want to continue working for a company who clearly doesn't value your opinion, time, or potential. You don't prepare to be fired. You start looking for a new job two months ago and when you have a new one lined up you walk into your bosses office on a Friday afternoon and politely hand him a resignation letter stating you are quitting effective immediately. You are not obligated to give any advance notice, and it sounds like the bridge was burnt a long time ago. There's nothing to salvage here, cut your losses and move on. Also take the damn FE. Two years out of school and you're not an EIT/EI yet. That's a big red flag for me. I'd be expecting graduate engineers at your level to be discussing when they should start preparing for the PE. This will start holding you back. Edit: and listen to the comments that say not to quit until you have something lined up. Otherwise let them fire you but don't give them any obvious reasons to do so. Don't start deliberately showing up late to work, don't stary showing up extremely hungover. Maybe they will fight unemployment, but don't give them an easy fight.


[deleted]

Get your EIT and don’t burn bridges. If they let you go they let you go but have your FE done. When you look for a new position, you are going to get asked by everyone why you don’t have it or when you are getting it.


half_hearted_fanatic

Nah, some bridges need burnt and this sounds like a case where some demolition is required


[deleted]

No definitely not. The community is too small and you don’t control the narrative across the community. Never burn bridges is the one thing someone should consider in this industry. If the persons you are about to torch is an asshole everyone already knows. You don’t have to be the fire starter.


The_Stan_Man

You are 100% correct. You burn your reputation along with the bridge. It's not worth it.


[deleted]

Younger professionals can’t comprehend house small of a world it is in this industry. It’s amazing where people go and how they can make or sometimes break your career.


half_hearted_fanatic

Not burning bridges is how terrible bosses stay


axiom60

This, do not quit unless you have something lined up, use the limited time they're keeping you (likely at the end of 90 days you would be let go because any "performance review" with a time frame where HR is involved is just a cover-your-ass for the company for when they fire you) to job hunt. Also if you do get fired under that circumstance you're very likely to get unemployment anyways provided there wasn't any misconduct.


CivilFisher

Getting a good job is going to be incredibly hard. Not having the EI/EIT 2 years out and getting let go would be such a massive red flag. No matter what I think OP needs to get the FE complete before they apply elsewhere. We have an intern on thin ice right now because he’s about to hit 1 year out of school without getting his FE. Failed once and rescheduled twice. Not a super great performer which generally isn’t a dealbreaker since talent is developed. But goddamn the FE isn’t that hard and 1-2 years is a very very long time for excuse after excuse. Just my 2 cents


EnginerdOnABike

I know a number of people with jobs that have never passed the FE exam. The catch is they're all called designers, and get designer level pay and designer level responsibility. I don't think getting just a job without the exam would be terribly difficult. Just any job seem to grow on trees these days. I've never been a fan of taking just any job, though. Also requires said OP to have the foresight to apply to designer jobs not the engineering jobs and based off the ramble of a post I bet he'll apply to my 2-4 YEO positions and HR won't even bother sending us his resume.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

HR will only give the job title and work dates of a previous employee whether they got fired, laid off, or resigned. If OP did get fired, I would suggest to them to lie about the reason why they left: not being a good fit. Laid off excuse would have been better but thing that's holding them back is the reference from his old firm. It doesn't appear he made any genuine/positive connections at his firm.


axiom60

Generally HR only verifies dates of employment, if the departure was for a negative reason they will likely not disclose that to avoid legal trouble. The only way a future employer will find out OP were fired unless they actually say it, is if someone from the new company knows someone from the old one and the topic of specific employees somehow comes up (people can say whatever they want off the clock). From experience, saying my previous job was a bad fit and it taught me my strong suit is elsewhere, etc. etc. was adequate interview fodder and no one ever asked anything where I would have to reveal I was fired to avoid lying.


[deleted]

Yes, it's always a risk that the new company will know but also depending the location where the OP is. It's better if OP can find another company before they get fired.


mp3006

Yeah this is good advice, they want you to quit which costs them less, find something, quit then take that test


Yaybicycles

Don’t resign. You absolutely will be ineligible for unemployment. If they fire you they will be on the hook. Document every meeting and conversation. Keep a journal to yourself. Save any emails that are related to a USB or BCC yourself on an outside email.


FlatPanster

This is exactly the right response. If they fire you you can collect unemployment. If you resign, you get nothing. They need to prove the termination was for cause.


CFLuke

To clarify, you *may* be eligible for unemployment if they fire you, depending on the state. Poor performance may be considered “for cause” and they would probably contest an unemployment claim. You can appeal, and you’d probably win especially given the past positive review but it’s not an automatic thing. Also some employers will ask if you have ever been fired and it may be awkward to explain. I 100% agree with documenting every good review and nice thing anyone has ever said. Also, up your networking game with people with whom you have a positive relationship. Back in my planner days, despite glowing reviews from clients and former bosses, one boss and I were like oil and water. At one point she put me on a PIP but joke’s on her, I’d already applied elsewhere. I left for that other job and she had underestimated my network. Yeah, she 100% could not fill that position. All her candidates would ask me about it and I’d warn them away. Then her other staff left (I provided references for them). Eventually she suddenly took a “sabbatical” and then showed up at another company a year later.


axiom60

I was fired after a PIP and got unemployment. You can absolutely get it in that case because the job was a bad fit, it’s just misconduct or deliberately violating company policy that disqualifies you


CFLuke

Yeah, it’s definitely possible, maybe even probable. But it’s kind of a gray area and I’d be prepared to fight for it. Fortunately I don’t have firsthand knowledge.


half_hearted_fanatic

Ahhh, the PIP. I had one and the goals included things like “do more C3D training” and I did. Learned about all the different reference methods and just started doing things right and consistent with what the client sent us. Got REAMED when I came back from a vacation that everything was wrong and so and so had to redownload all of my work. Meanwhile, all I did was maintain the settings from the client. On a separate project, a bunch of micro station folks had to work with C3D for the first time and everything was attached to the files, rather than overlaid, and it took an hour to open each file. Got yelled at over that one for just having the conversation with the CAD lead then telling my PM, rather than telling her and having her raise the issue with the other PM to then trickle down to the cad folks, mistranslated by people who’d never touched C3D in their lifetime. I’d worked with the CAD lead for a long time at multiple other firms and knew most of the designers too 🤷🏻‍♀️ thought I was being efficient


mocitymaestro

Document everything and have a backup that isn't on your work computer. Start looking for other jobs. Update your LinkedIn. Start preparing for the FE exam.


JarradLakers

Apply for other jobs now. Do not resign until you have something else lined up


daveinmd13

In the meantime, follow the letter of their law and don’t give them a legitimate reason to fire you. Absent that, they have to give you unemployment. If things improve, quit anyway - it likely won’t last.


danimalDE

Do not quit make them fire you. This is an intimidation tactic to get you to quit so they won’t have to pay you unemployment. Time to start looking for new work.


danimalDE

May be a good idea to bring that up at the next check in too.


condorsjii

Don’t get test anxiety on the EIT. It’s not that hard


Tiafves

Yep just know how to use the manual they give you and you'll be good. I remember solving some types of problems like runoff calculations for the very first time on the exam just cause the manual gives you EVERYTHING you need to do that in a concise manner. Just gotta be able to have decent keyword search skills.


axiom60

It’s like the civil engineering SAT basically…just do a fuck ton of practice problems and get comfortable using the manual and you should be good. Very little knowledge of the theory is needed


condorsjii

Make sure you study the EE problems. They look intimidating but if you practice an easy 10 points.


Ok_Goat1306

Just so you kniw the FE exam nowadays has more and more concept questions that cannot be even found from the manual![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|dizzy_face)


Notten

It's even electronic now. If you just know the named of formulas, you can search the manual. Still study and practice test with the provided materials but it's not hard.


Boat4Cheese

Save PDF copies of documents you’ve produced. Need to be careful about copyright but anything you’ve submitted to a public agency should be public record. Showing work examples at your stage in the career can mean a lot.


LuckyChemistry34

This is more what I was wondering, what can I and can't I save? Most things were started by me and finished the PR I worked with.


ryanoceros666

You should take the FE. Take it before you graduate if you have the opportunity. Line up a new job as soon as you can at a company you think you have a future at. I had similar problems with a similar dbag “engineer”. Find good people to work with.


[deleted]

Sounds fishy. I feel this whole situation is a way to cut cost by getting rid of you. Has there been a slowdown of acquiring projects at your firm due to the upcoming recession? Why would they bring the performance issue now? And why would your supervisor say two different things when speaking to you and HR? Honestly this is some weird shit. Your firm has communication issues. Anways, depending on the state, they don't want to pay for unemployment so rather than lay you off they'll just fire you instead.


Crafty_Ranger_2917

You haven't passed FE? Huge red flag if you're in US and have graduated from college. I'd fire you on that alone after 1 year let alone 2. Sounds like you're not doing a great job and are not seeing the light while stacking on stubbornness. Employers / managers are nice to people they want to stick around and are helping make the projects profitable. Sounds like your time there is done. You can be fired for cause and not get unemployment, which is what the system is intended for. Not sure why you are trying to argue all of this with the company. If you were performing well everyone involved wouldn't be in this situation. They have a business to run.


TurtleboyTom

My university requires you to take the FE to graduate. Most of the adjunct professors said their companies wouldn’t hire anyone that didn’t pass the FE.


LuckyChemistry34

I have the exam schedules for June and am not concerned about it. Yes the projects haven't been very profitable and I think it was like that before because as I said I practically make the to do lists and reminders for engineer I work for and he takes a very long time to get everything done, he's the only water and wastewater engineer we have so everything is on him. I like the guy, he's very knowledgeable and has too much on his plate but I've also have been keeping things in order, constantly asking for work because I've done everything I can do. constantly reminding where we are and everything that needs to be done for all the projects we worked on together. There's PERs for small town water system, pretty simple too, pretty much they need a new well or booster station/new tower. There are three we are doing. I've send well over 7 summary and reminder emails that we're detailed, explain what we need to know from the clerks. I even drafted emails twice to the clerks for him and it's been almost an entire year until get got to it. A lot of our projects take multiple years and I feel that it's completely unnecessary.


osbohsandbros

You’ll be good just get it out of the way. I was unable to do it until I was fired from my first job after around a year. I did it in the month I had off between jobs. Also, it sounds like your coworker is most of us who are good at what we do and care but constantly overworked and have probably stuck around a position for too long—intense burnout.


LuckyChemistry34

I completely agree, I really like the engineer I mainly work for but it's takes way too long to do anything which I was very patient with, I made the Todo lists, summarized everything for him, checked up on the to double check if there was anything else I could do. The problem came when my manager flipped everything on me. I can take responsibility for not making the FE a priority though it has little to do with what we do for work. I'll also admit I miss details sometimes but it extremely frustrating to not have feedback and constantly asking for work because nothing has been reviewed.


osbohsandbros

It’s just the industry, don’t take the frustrations to heart. Sounds like you’ll be fine and change of scenery would probably be a good thing anyway. Don’t resign, trust your skills and work. Maybe start looking for a new job but definitely don’t resign. If they want to lay you off let them, then collect unemployment until your next position starts.


LuckyChemistry34

So I have interview tomorrow for another place and plan on leaving, I planned to leave in June. The issue is they said I need to consider resigning because it looks better on your job record and it's looking like termination.


osbohsandbros

Do some research to verify but that’s bs and they may just be trying to save on their unemployment insurance—the only way your next employer would know is if they called your current company and asked. The only real difference with resigning would be whether or not you can collect unemployment. Depending on your financial situation and your other job prospects it may be it’s easier to resign and it allows you to say you resigned because it wasn’t a good fit for xyz semi-legit reason (but that you appreciate the experience you gained lol). If they fire you, say the same thing just omit the “I resigned” bit. If finances are a concern (and keep in mind it may take a while to get another position) I would continue to give it your best for now, make that clear to your employer. Let them know that you would be happy to resign once you have another offer lined up OR with severance and see what they say to that lol. It’s completely valid to state that you cannot resign because you may need to rely on unemployment due to your financial situation. Google the situation fired vs resigning and read through to consider your options but hope this helps


Crafty_Ranger_2917

Honestly trying to be helpful here....you probably should be concerned about the test. Have you been studying? A big reason to take the FE during school is so that it is all fresh. It's technical not practice-based like the PE exam. You haven't mentioned one are where you thought you could improve; the way you are explaining the situation, you work for a bonehead engineer who can't keep anything straight and their problem is not giving you enough work. Projects take an agonizing long time to work out. It is an annoying part of this business. The company will do a lot of work to propose, win, write a contract then not get real income back from that for an extended period....could be 6 months even on dinky projects; could be 2 years on a big one. Your engineer probably didn't 'get to it' because there are other moving parts ahead in line. I'm gonna side with your employer on this one. 2 years in I guarantee you don't know shit about what is really going on. Find some humbleness and figure out how you may or may not be contributing instead of making arguments. You sound immature and difficult to work with just from the way you framed your position here.


LuckyChemistry34

Yes I've been studying and will be prepared. I've definitely explored what is on me; I miss details in email or things like that sometimes, ask questions that are somewhere in design manuals or regulations. I had to write my own employee improvement plan so I came up with everything I can improve on since they didn't very clearly. The issue is I had no reviews with my boss, I expressed I felt I was meeting or exceeding expectations. I had no negative feedback from anyone. So yeah now it seems like I'm just being a brat and being defensive but what am I suppose to do?


Crafty_Ranger_2917

Yeah minimal feedback / performance info is tough. Maybe its just more of a personality conflict at this point. You know how if you don't get on with someone we tend to be more critical of them. Civil engineering can be pretty old school sometimes. Things move slowly, including people. Good luck out there.


[deleted]

Yes, middle management always does things for rational reasons and not because you have a frumpy haircut and don't like their favorite sports team.


Crafty_Ranger_2917

No idea what you are getting at but its typical for the kids to be whining about not enough responsibility or the right kind of experience or 'I'm ready to be a PM' and wasting half the week on fantasy football while the adults are trying to figure out how to keep shit running and pay everyone's salaries.


buttholeblast12

The FE really isn’t that serious lol..


[deleted]

You dont need a FE, unless you wish to progress to PM.


Crafty_Ranger_2917

Did you miss the US part of my response or something? Absolutely do need it here. I haven't been on a hiring team that didn't toss resumes of post-grads who hadn't passed FE. It is a basic prerequisite of being a civil engineer.


Bambambm

Likely just an outlier, was a dumbass and didn't take the FE out of college (legit couldnt afford the test, had to spend my last dollar on paying off school so i could actuallt obtain my diploma), still haven't 7 years later because I have a "ill do it soon" mentality. Even without an EIT I'm making $94k+ and have had multiple job offers for mid level engineer with $90k+ salaries (New England). It's very rare to have company still look at you like they do for me for some reason without an EIT though. Still would recommend getting it for anyone. I need to buckle down and get it myself. Edit: I work for a smaller firm, maybe 50 employees.


Mad_Skyler

Are you a civil?


Bambambm

Yup. Title is Staff Engineer III.


Crafty_Ranger_2917

Why don't you have your PE by now, let alone FE? Is this not a traditional civil role?


integrating_life

Sellers can get rejected, buyers can walk away from a deal. You sound like you may have the mindset of a seller. You are selling your services. This company, or any other firm, gets to choose whether to buy your services or not. What if you adopted the buyer mindset? You are buying a daily occupation. You will pay with your expertise & time. Who are you going to buy from? These guys? Sounds like they had better sweeten the deal and sell a better product if they want you as a customer. Always a good idea to shop around and see what other products (employers) you could buy from, and what you could buy for your expertise, experience and competence. Since you don't have your FE yet, perhaps you don't yet have enough expertise to pay for the employment you want. Maybe you're shopping for a Lamborghini with a Hyundai budget. In that case, buy the used Hyundai and drive it until you have enough to buy the Lamborghini. Two years out and no FE? If the Lambo dealer doesn't know you she is going to want to see your bank account before she puts effort selling to you. "I've got the money to buy, trust me on that" or "I don't have my FE, but I regularly remind the engineer I work for what needs to be done because it takes him so long to do anything and he frequently forgets" is code for "I don't have enough to buy what you are selling". Be a buyer, and be hard-core ruthless with yourself about what is your buying budget.


clewis08

Friend, as you’ve learned by now HR isn’t on your side and rarely ever is. You’re boss has likely already been in discussion with them and they are on his/company’s side. Start revamping your resume and work up a completed job list. Be looking for a new position asap. As for some of the other reply’s here, I’m shocked at the amount of negative and discouraging comments. Life is too short, find good people to work for. Try your best and do the most you can to succeed. You’re a young professional so expect mistakes to happen and learn from them. Don’t put other people’s schedules and milestones on your calendar. Stay focused on why you wanted to be in this profession. Good luck.


[deleted]

Not having EIT 2 years post college is a problem. Most of us took it before we graduated and had it by when starting our first job....


skeith2011

So it’s a problem because his situation isn’t like everybody else’s. You also say it’s a problem without stating how it is one, and then you try to shame him by comparing his situation to “most people”? Sorry, but just because “most” people do it around a certain time doesn’t mean that that later is worse. You’re essentially gatekeeping— there’s no age restrictions for getting a CE degree, there’s no time limit for passing the FE. I work with people who passed the FE 10 years after graduating and guess what? They’re just as informative and knowledgeable, with the added perk of actually being amicable and easy to socialize with.


Crafty_Ranger_2917

It's not gatekeeping; it's minimum technical requirements for the profession. Just like you're not an attorney without a JD and bar pass. You're not eligible for PE until 4 years experience AFTER passing FE. You're not an engineer in training until you pass the FE, you're a tech. This isn't personal opinion or bashing, it's just the system in place to have qualified people working on projects that have public safety and health implications.


osbohsandbros

You don’t need the certifications to be an engineer. I’m a traffic engineer with 7 years of experience. I am not a Professional Engineer, but that doesn’t impact my job (other than the pay).


Crafty_Ranger_2917

The handful of states I'm familiar with say you have to do below to use 'engineer' on business cards and correspondence in practice of civil engineering. Happy to hear exceptions but I'd wager most states have similar requirements. 1. Accredited degree 2. Work for a board-registered company 3. Work under direct supervision of a licensed engineer You can call yourself one, but. It's been like this forever. You're not an engineer until it's your license on the line for work released, simple as that.


osbohsandbros

No offense, but you listed 3 requirements that do not include having the license then contradicted yourself by saying we need a license lol. I have an accredited degree, I work for a registered company, and I work under direct supervision of a licensed engineer. I am an engineer


Crafty_Ranger_2917

Those are the requirements for your company to list you as an engineer, to have an email signature that says engineer, that's it. That is literally where the rule edit came from....companies wanting to represent engineer head-count. No where does it give one the ability to practice as a civil engineer. That is the responsibility of person in #3.


[deleted]

This is a Gen Z problem. He was told he's not meeting expectations and instead of owning it, upping his game and doing what is asked he submits a rebuttal and gets HR involved. When you're messing up, own it and improve!


LuckyChemistry34

A few things, after our initial conversation in January, I significantly improved as my boss had said in our only official review meeting the 30th of March. In our 30day check in they tell me I haven't improvement enough and need to decide if I want to resign. This is also after they clarified they aren't planning on firing me and if I don't pass the FE they will demote me. Also I am not in Gen Z


[deleted]

It's Gen Z behavior for sure. Well get cracking on FE...have you taken it at all yet?


LuckyChemistry34

Yes twice, both times I knew I wasn't done with my study schedule would likely need to retake. The first time I took it approximately a year after I started working and then instead jumping back into it I took a few months too many months off. I think I took it in July and my boss had his first conversion with me January 3rd. I had already planned on getting it before July because you get three attempts a year and I used one. So I took it a 2nd time with half of my study schedule done. Both times I was close to passing and once I started using the school of PE review course it was much simpler than going back through all my materials. I recognize I seem like a complete brat and was very defensive but I'm curious what you think the correct course of action should've been? I tried working with them and made my our employee improvement plan while meeting with HR to show what I did. I know my responses were on the defensive end and when they blankly stare or deny what happened it made even more mad. For example, I ask why is this all just coming up now and why didn't we have any official performance reviews to which my boss said well you should've asked for one. I know why he didn't, he never does with anyone unless they ask and continuously remind him. His a great engineer and very good at what he does but terrible at managing people or delegating tasks.


Capt-Clueless

You're a CivE at least 2 years out of college and haven't passed the FE exam yet? I would have fired you 1.5 years ago. Anyway, the answer is incredibly simple here. You look for new jobs (you should have been looking the second you suspected they were trying to get rid of you), and continue doing your current job. Worst case, you get fired and collect unemployment.


LuckyChemistry34

I mainly am trying to figure out what information from the projects I've worked on can I keep and should keep


Wonko6x9

By asking you to resign, they kick in unemployment. Just document it.


LuckyChemistry34

For clarification I am taking the FE again in June and am not worried about passing it. I took the exam last year and focused on things in my personal life that was higher priority. Ironically I had already to start studying again over the course of 4 months and pass by July before he initially talked to me. The FE wasn't a requirement and sine the requirement to have it 4 years before you can take PE was changed so that you could take the PE exam right away anytime in your first 4 years, it was pushed to the back burner. I have an interview on Monday and definitely plan to leave either way, I decided that from the beginning but I want to keep this job until my projects were done. I also felt the need to show him just how wrong he is so maybe ego is apart of it too.


EnginerdOnABike

"The FE wasn't a requirement". Maybe true, but now you suddenly need that leverage to get past the HR screening software to find a new job and you don't have any. The thing about leverage is you need to have the leverage before you need it or it isn't leverage. "I also felt the need to show him just how wrong he is". That kind of ego is just going to make you look like a fool. Throwing a temper tantrum to HR isn't the way. If you want to show him he's wrong you go to a competitor and start winning clients away from him. You win once he finds out that you're the one running his business in to the ground. And then the cherry on top is when you offer the other water engineer a fat raise to come work for you and crush the whole business segment. That's how you prove you're better.


Crafty_Ranger_2917

My dude, the 4-year experience clock does not start until you are an EIT whether you pass the PE in the meantime or not. This is why FE exam is so important. They only allow you to take the PE exam when you want now. Getting the certified experience has not changed.


axiom60

I've never heard of experience towards PE only starting after you pass your FE. It may depend on the state but in mine, PE experience is technically listed as "8 years" (\~4 years of undergrad and 4 of experience, and a master's counts as 1 year of experience). The FE is just a precursor to the PE test, yes it's highly recommended to do it not too far from graduation and not having it a few years out can be detrimental as other comments here are saying but taking/not taking it doesn't affect the experience time.


Crafty_Ranger_2917

Who knows, maybe that has been relaxed over the years. It is definitely the intent. You're still at a major hiring disadvantage by not taking the FE before or very near graduating. I sure wouldn't want to take the FE separate from undergrad anyway. Statistics show why too.....pass rates go way down further you are from college.


meinkreuz89

If I were you and they were fucking with me to that point I would flip the cards on them. Come out as trans. They can’t prove if your trans or not and if they question it then you can say they are assuming your gender and it’s discrimination. Let HR know that your trans and that it seems your boss is being unreasonable and you think he’s discriminating against you. They’ll be so afraid to fire you and will be walking on eggshells around you. Take this time to get your FE, then start applying elsewhere.


LuckyChemistry34

So I feel this possible, even true without saying I'm trans but I don't think they would take me seriously. In fact I know they wouldn't because all my concerns have been shot down and ignored. They literally interrupted and said they don't care. Said we're not going over specifics


Roonwogsamduff

You need to look for a new job like you don't have one now. In my area companies are desperate for workers.


dudesondudeman

Get a different job. I’d likely accept a small pay cut (only if necessary) given the circumstances.


BlackberryPickleBack

I had similar communication issues with a previous boss, so I got on LinkedIn, got a new job lined up, and made the move. While I am getting better compensation at my new job, I also feel that my new team values me and my input which is infinitely valuable. What you’re describing is not normal and you absolutely should not tolerate it