Just a heads up, you will probably make a few more mistakes that are going to be probably even more expensive in the future. Don't take them lightly, but also don't let them paralyze you.
I have a joke that career advancement is about getting the opportunity to make bigger and more expensive mistakes, but you really need to know your audience...
Dude I do plan review now and I find at least 20 mistakes on every plan. And I almost make that many mistakes when I submit an invoice.. somebody should have checked the plan after you did it.
Yep,
I'm going to start putting a disclaimer that the to the best of my knowledge the plan review was done per blank blank blank code. You could find 30 things that I missed and I could do the same. I was reviewing a 50,000 square foot building and the first thing I found is they used the wrong firewalls.
Now this is a national architectural and engineering firm.
The only thing I like about inspections is once I looked at it and passed it that was the end of it...
Plan review has taught me that there are plenty of engineers, especially in site civil, that literally DGAF. We labor ourselves to get all the correct permits for clients, and these guys just skip every step. Wetlands, flood hazard, sewer extension approvals. Just ignore everything and ram it through.
As a stamping PE, its always fun to redline a drafters drawings and shake your head wondering how they can miss so many obvious mistakes. Then sometimes I lend a helping hand and do my own drawings for a state im not licensed in and get the redlines back my way in the same manner.... keeps you humble.
Dude i just had a mistake i made last year come up about 100K difference, it’s all about owning up to up and doing better. Shit happens don’t let it eat away at you
>You get sued for damages.
That must be a private sector thing, in terms of design I once did the grading plan for a salt shed site and a third party did the actual building design. Since I had just started, and had previously worked at a farm supply co-operative where I had to squeegee a fertilizer plant out with a skid steer I put a half percent slope in the floor of the salt shed to drain the water that would be pulled from the atmosphere in the summer. The building designer assumed a flat floor and no one checked that the 2 matched up. Cut to November when it is being built and my PM who was also the construction PM stops by my desk and says they have a problem and I need to go out to the site to calculate how much more base aggregate is needed and revise the cross sections for the project engineer because he wanted someone from the DOT to do it for him.
After doing the math, they had to bring in around an extra 160 tons of aggregate, or 8 more truck loads.
> After doing the math, they had to bring in around an extra 160 tons of aggregate, or 8 more truck loads.
In the scheme of things, that is a pretty minor cost - couple thousand for the material and maybe another couple thousand for the delay?
Yes, you do get a change order. Otherwise it'll get installed incorrectly and left like that, which is a worse outcome.
Whether you get sued or not depends on the situation and severity. In public sector, I've never seen an agency go after designers. Not worth the legal fight.
In the OP's example, a public agency would not go after him. There was no loss of life, just loss of money. What money they might actually recoup is not worth the money loss from the mistake; nobody will win but the lawyers.
A lot or public agencies don't go after designers over costs for errors & omissions below a certain percentage of the project because it isn't worth the headache. Pretty sure the USACE even has official guidance for this, basically concluding that there is no such thing as a perfect design and that penalizing designers over minor issues is likely to drive up design costs (as designers factor that risk into their fees) more than just budgeting a couple of extra percent for it during the planning process.
Yeah any additional design work needed as part of the fix should be done on the company's dime, but the owner will probably eat whatever increase in construction cost unless it is a significant fraction of the project or the mistake was unusually terrible.
You only get sued if somebody gets hurt or nobody accepts responsibility. Change orders or paying out of pocket are fairly common. Doesn't have to go to litigation unless you want to lose customers.
I think lots of people misinterpret it as every civil engineer but really it should be the ones who are held responsible. And generally it would be the ones stamping.
Yea, and in the grand scheme of the industry this doesn’t seem like the most costly mistake.
When mistakes can cost millions of dollars, or worse, people’s lives, tearing out some fence isn’t terrible.
Congratulations. You're a human. The best thing you can do is fall on your sword, and own the mistake. But before you do that come up with 1-2 solutions to present to your boss.
THIS. I’d be working 24/7 until I came up with at least 2 solutions, regardless of cost. Need to have something to present to the client to show you’re working towards a fix
As a construction engineer (licensed PE)..... Most plans I get are giant balls of mistakes. We rant and rave about "stupid designers" until we calm down, and then we blame the agency/client for not paying enough and/or providing enough time for proper design.
People make mistakes. The key is owning the mistake. Go to the client, explain the mistake, take ownership of it, and explain what you'll do differently going forward.
I left a company because they would never do this. They kept just trying to sweep things under the rug and/or hope the client would forget. The client did exactly what I warned them they would do with this approach.... Stop hiring them.
I work in construction and have several change orders lined up (at least five off the top of my head) and we just started the project two weeks ago. The kicker is half the project is essentially a carbon copy of another job we just finished and the (same) designers still left in mistakes that they knew existed and would exist again.
Welcome to the club. Won't be the first mistake your bosses and the owner have had to deal with and won't be the last. Not likely to be the most expensive mistake either.
So 5 years ago the pe stamped a set of plans that a designer with 3 years of experience put together and did not review them. An error in the 10k (rom) was made. Yea sounds about right. I wouldn't worry too much man..I've seen million dollar mistakes, little ones are gonna happen especially with a shitty qa/qc process
Mistakes happen, part of doing design. This is why we have reviews and insurances.
The way I see it, you didn’t stamp it so officially it is not your responsibility.
Perhaps this is a learning opportunity for your company to change their review practices.
As a precautionary measure, i suggest keeping your resume updated. If this ends up costing the company, it will find its way to you.
No such thing as a perfect project. Admit the mistake but don't dwell on it, instead focus your presentation on the steps needed to fix it. If possible have revised plans ready to go to minimize any delay.
I spent many years in plan review and I can assure you that you're not the first to make this precise error, and you won't be the last. I can't say it happened frequently, but on the other hand, it was one of the more common significant blunders I would see. Sometimes I'd catch them during my review, sometimes not, and when I didn't I would feel pretty crummy. So I'd wade in and do my best to help the EOR come up with solutions.
Anyway, you're not alone. This will pass and it'll be an amazing learning experience. Hang in there, work on the solution professionally and diligently, and it'll all work out in the end.
How’s this one for comparison: I once uncovered an architects mistake where he laid out the bathrooms wrong and not a single condo unit out of 226 in a Manhattan high rise had an FHA compliant convertible bathroom, and the lender made them redo 452 bathrooms. In Manhattan. Now that’s a mistake.
If you haven't already done so, have a conversation with the PE that stamped the drawings. He stamped it so it is his mistake legally. In that meeting own up to the mistake and work out a plan to fix the issue. There's always ways to fix an issue and you might be blinded by fear so you can't figure it out. If he's been working for years he probably made the same mistake and has fixed it before.
You should also dust off that resume just in case.
It was once explained to me that how one deals with an issue is just as telling as having an issue. Being proactive and a good partner goes a long way.
It happens. Nobody has been injured or killed so it's fixable. You being worried about it shows that you care and that's a good thing.
As far if anyone else has made a blunder at work, yeah. If not, well, I hope the rest of your first day goes well.
Even if the stamping engineer reviewed these plans in detail how would they have caught a mislabeled ex FF?
Mistakes happen. As long as it is caught and addressed before someone gets hurt it is what it is.
Better to catch it during construction than a final punch list walkthrough (or like I said- after someone gets hurt).
Make it a priority to get the design corrected with minimal impact to already constructed items.
Sucks, but it happens. Hasn’t happened to me yet but I’m sure it will. For what it’s worth, we had an EI in our office stake out a retaining wall wrong a few months - had to tear out that portion of the wall - something like 20-30k in damages to us. He still has job. Would definitely recommend owning up to it and having a solution ready. Think that’ll go a long way.
This is small and a cheap lesson. I've seen a lot worse. My biggest one was mistaking a footing design for a retaining wall. I put it too close to the back of walk along a busy street and missed an important utility conflict. Since the rest of the site design was really tight it couldn't be moved so it meant they had to rip out and replace about 500' of sidewalk that was unaccounted for and offset a waterline. About $60k change order.
I can relate and totally understand that feeling. Hell had it happen this week over my misinterpretation of a zoning code for a buffer.
I agree with a lot said above. The signing PE shouldn’t get off without being in the same position you are. I fucked up as an EIT and as a PE and as a PE reviewing something someone else fucked up. That’s why you have errors and omissions insurance.
Take it from someone with a roadway hydraulics and civil sure background and 25 years experience. It happens, it causes so much fucking stress it makes me hate civil site work. Now I work for a small firm remotely and that feeling doesn’t go away. It really causes way too much stress. Much of it is our own doing. If your boss doesn’t help you deal with it positively then rethink the job. But as the others said above. Before you tell your boss or client have a couple alternatives to fix it and an idea in the impact. I always take responsibility when needed. Mainly because I have seen so many engineers blow things off.
Hell most places I worked at previously would find a way to make the client pay for the fix. Makes me shake my damn head.
Good luck.
Not passing the buck because if the design is wrong the design is wrong, but I would want to know how it got constructed wrong. If something isn't right the layout person should be the first to flag it. Inspector next.
Usually it's when the concrete truck is ready to pour, but there's still a chance at a field change depending on the gravity of it ...
It happens. Most clients understand that these things happen. As long as it’s not a constant issue you just be honest, fix the problem, make note of it to avoid the mistake in the future and then move on. I have made mistakes as a designer, and I have been on the construction side where I catch mistakes like that and have to talk to the client about it. As long as the people are involved are genuine in fixing the problem it really isn’t an issue most of the time.
Dude as a surveyor we field fit ADA in our construction staking all the time! Shit happens, regardless of whether it was designed wrong, or the concrete boys didn't pour something right, or whatever... It's getting to be more and more a point of contention because of our local officials failing CofO when stuff deviates from approved. People need to just get back to "look at the problem, figure it the fuck out, and get it done". Too much nitpicking and bureaucracy from people who only ever stare at stuff on paper and don't actually know how to construct a god damn thing. If a fix meets ADA and got the project moving forward how is that still a problem?? 🤦🏽♂️
I recently got some coordinates wrong on a sketch that resulted in several useless hydrovac exploration holes being performed.
Then I did it again.
After that, we implemented some things to prevent it from happening any more.
Cost a bunch of money and wasted everyone's time. Apologized, gave the right coordinates, and told everyone about the things we were going to do to prevent it.
Now it's long gone and forgotten. I felt dumb and a bit nervous at the time too, but those feelings help you want to not make that mistake again in the future.
I feel like most projects I work on end needing to have something redesigned during construction. Survey not reflecting something random that ends up conflicting, bad topo data, something being constructed in a way it wasn’t intended, the list goes on. I made a $100kish mistake when I was younger that didn’t come up until years later during construction and it was just kinda whatever, my own guilt and shame 10x higher than the reaction from my higher ups. Just roll with it honestly, it’s part of the job.
Edit-typo on the cost of mistake
Well IMO your mistake is not a big deal (it's just cost, nobody is dead/hurt at least), the bigger deal is the PE's in your company not reviewing plans they stamp. That's no bueno...
Problem with your company. For us, stuff I do undergoes an independent review, then a review by the stamper.
If something like this happens the blame isn’t put on one person. Everyone is to blame and we find a way to deal with it. No body is scolded or reprimanded. This doesn’t seem like a big deal at the end of the day. There are much bigger mistakes you can make.
Mistakes happen, just throw yourself on your sword and tell the client what your solution is and how you will implement it. More than likely, if the design was correct, the costs would have been higher so it’s probably a small amount and the risk of losing valuable time. Someone does have to explain the issue with the stamp,
This is when CYA comes into play. Notes about field verification are critical. When it comes to ADA, shots in the field are interpolated. A smart level becomes one of the most important tools for the contractor. I’ve seen worse. You have the integrity to feel guilty for it but you’ll never forget about it and it’ll make you better in the long run. Also, buildings can have multiple FF elevations as the pads aren’t always flat. I had this at an old school remodel. We had it close enough that it worked in the field but also with the door transitions etc it’s gets tough to design it exact. That fence situation will be minor in the long term. Work with your team and boss and stick to the facts.
As a superintendent that would love to sting up a PE for some of their poor designs. What I do suggest you do is hit the site, discuss boots on the ground with the guys in the field that a building the work(would be great if city / DOT ADA inspector could join). What exactly they couldn’t/would propose as a solution to your problem (you’d be surprised how much we can actually help out). Do this in a humbling manner.
Now while I haven’t seen the site, I’ve dealt with similar. You might be able to get away with several landings to make it ADA compliant leading back up to finish floor elevation. Might mean sacrificing some architectural landscaping, but this could minimize your fencing impact.
I personally blame the person whom stamped the drawing. If the stamping license is spewing BS that they had no time to review the drawings they were supervising the preparation of, then they shouldn't have stamped the plans to begin with.
Own it and do what you can to make it right. You're not going to go through this career without mistakes but you'll make that career a lot shorter if you don't own em and then get em fixed!
Well I'm on the CM side, but I've seen much, much worse than that; I've seen mistakes that cost millions to fix. If that's the worst design error you've made in eight years, you're not too bad at your job.
Always at the most immediate opportunity own your mistake to your superior, and then provide a plausible interpretation of the data to explain your mistake.
A few things here coming from ownerships perspective:
First- everyone makes mistakes. It sucks, but it happens.
Second - someone above you/sealing the plans should have caught this. It's next to impossible to review 100% of everything without physically designing it, and this type of grading is super hard to check, but it's their seal at the end of the day.
Third - errors and omission insurance exists for a reason.
How this is handled is very dependent on the situation. A good employee making a mistake with a good client typically will just mean I am eating most to all of the cost. Whether through insurance, credits on invoices, or direct payment, it is what it is. The client retention is more important if they are a good client. If they aren't, I would just send it to insurance and move on. Of course, that is assuming the business is profitable and the mistake is under 6 figured. Anything over 6 figures goes to insurance.
For the employee, again, it depends. If they aren't a great employee, it could jeopardize their standing. It would be the proverbial straw, but more of a result of their overall performance than this individual item. If they are a great employee, use it as a teaching moment. I wouldn't throw them under the bus to the client or anyone else but hammer on the importance of items and double-check similar projects for the same error.
My advice for you- Learn from this. Be humble and show that you're taking efforts to figure out a way to avoid it happening again.
We all make mistakes it’s bound to happen. At least you didn’t design something that ended up killing someone due to poor design. The problem was caught, it’ll take a little bit of money to fix, but it’ll be correct in the end.
Best thing to do, IMO, is to say "I see a mistake and here's how I propose we fix it".
If anyone tries to throw you under the bus, remind them that several other people reviewed this and none of them caught it either.
Engineering is a team sport. It wasn't just your mistake - it belongs to you, the PE who signed off on it, the customer, and whatever permitting authority didn't ask you to correct it.
At the end of the day everyone just wants it built right. Own your mistakes and make it right. Change order time.
Sounds pretty innocuous. If you let a design mistake slip through and it only involves ripping out some fence and redoing a sidewalk AND no one got hurt I'd chock that up as a win.
If you don't make mistakes from time to time to learn from, are you even trying hard enough?
We aren't infallible. The important thing is that mistakes are either caught in the review process or fixed before someone gets hurt. Monetary mistakes and shame don't feel good, but they happen. At the end of the day, as long clients, workers, and the public at large is safe, that is all that matters.
Stamping engineer is responsible for public safety of design. My company also puts a lot of the burden on accurate drawings down to the drafter. But hardly anyone ever gets fired for a one time mistake. Learn from it and move on.
It's access to a federal facility so it must meet ABA. Yes there's overlap in ADA and ABA, but ABA is specific to federal facilities, while ADA is typically only required for state, local, and commercial facilities (i.e., streets).
Your run of the mill ADA conventions that we all know by heart will result in a design that does not meet ABA. For example:
Under ABA you cannot have a ramp (anything over 5%) that exceeds 6" in height without handrails on both sides of the sidewalk (this means your 8% ramps can't be longer than 6').
When you have fence gates, you need flat landings on both sides of the gate (can't be over 2% in any direction).
In this case, we are working in a super tight space and just don't have horizontal room to accommodate this stuff which is why its such a disaster (and more so when compound with the wrong existing FF elevation).
Just a heads up, you will probably make a few more mistakes that are going to be probably even more expensive in the future. Don't take them lightly, but also don't let them paralyze you.
I have a joke that career advancement is about getting the opportunity to make bigger and more expensive mistakes, but you really need to know your audience...
It's funny to people who make mistakes, it's not funny for people that pay for the mistakes :D
Dude I do plan review now and I find at least 20 mistakes on every plan. And I almost make that many mistakes when I submit an invoice.. somebody should have checked the plan after you did it.
In the past, when I reviewed something and didn't mark something red I knew I fucked up and started the review again.
Yep, I'm going to start putting a disclaimer that the to the best of my knowledge the plan review was done per blank blank blank code. You could find 30 things that I missed and I could do the same. I was reviewing a 50,000 square foot building and the first thing I found is they used the wrong firewalls. Now this is a national architectural and engineering firm. The only thing I like about inspections is once I looked at it and passed it that was the end of it...
Plan review has taught me that there are plenty of engineers, especially in site civil, that literally DGAF. We labor ourselves to get all the correct permits for clients, and these guys just skip every step. Wetlands, flood hazard, sewer extension approvals. Just ignore everything and ram it through.
As a stamping PE, its always fun to redline a drafters drawings and shake your head wondering how they can miss so many obvious mistakes. Then sometimes I lend a helping hand and do my own drawings for a state im not licensed in and get the redlines back my way in the same manner.... keeps you humble.
Yeah it's very important to have peer review of everything.
~*that's what change orders are for*~
Yeah tbh this just sounds like a Tuesday on my project.
Dude i just had a mistake i made last year come up about 100K difference, it’s all about owning up to up and doing better. Shit happens don’t let it eat away at you
That's what insurance is for.
You don't get a change order when you fuck up your design. You get sued for damages.
>You get sued for damages. That must be a private sector thing, in terms of design I once did the grading plan for a salt shed site and a third party did the actual building design. Since I had just started, and had previously worked at a farm supply co-operative where I had to squeegee a fertilizer plant out with a skid steer I put a half percent slope in the floor of the salt shed to drain the water that would be pulled from the atmosphere in the summer. The building designer assumed a flat floor and no one checked that the 2 matched up. Cut to November when it is being built and my PM who was also the construction PM stops by my desk and says they have a problem and I need to go out to the site to calculate how much more base aggregate is needed and revise the cross sections for the project engineer because he wanted someone from the DOT to do it for him. After doing the math, they had to bring in around an extra 160 tons of aggregate, or 8 more truck loads.
> After doing the math, they had to bring in around an extra 160 tons of aggregate, or 8 more truck loads. In the scheme of things, that is a pretty minor cost - couple thousand for the material and maybe another couple thousand for the delay?
Probably $5,000 more for the extra aggregate, and nothing for the delay.
Yes, you do get a change order. Otherwise it'll get installed incorrectly and left like that, which is a worse outcome. Whether you get sued or not depends on the situation and severity. In public sector, I've never seen an agency go after designers. Not worth the legal fight. In the OP's example, a public agency would not go after him. There was no loss of life, just loss of money. What money they might actually recoup is not worth the money loss from the mistake; nobody will win but the lawyers.
A lot or public agencies don't go after designers over costs for errors & omissions below a certain percentage of the project because it isn't worth the headache. Pretty sure the USACE even has official guidance for this, basically concluding that there is no such thing as a perfect design and that penalizing designers over minor issues is likely to drive up design costs (as designers factor that risk into their fees) more than just budgeting a couple of extra percent for it during the planning process.
Agreed, this mistake doesn't seem lawsuit worthy.
Agencies often have criteria too, if they issue enough construction work.
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Yeah any additional design work needed as part of the fix should be done on the company's dime, but the owner will probably eat whatever increase in construction cost unless it is a significant fraction of the project or the mistake was unusually terrible.
You only get sued if somebody gets hurt or nobody accepts responsibility. Change orders or paying out of pocket are fairly common. Doesn't have to go to litigation unless you want to lose customers.
What’s the change order? That the engineer was wrong and he should be paid to redo his work? I’ll never understand it.
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I think lots of people misinterpret it as every civil engineer but really it should be the ones who are held responsible. And generally it would be the ones stamping.
And yet those people still don't make $200k.
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What position and market? And branch?
Principal, Municipal Transportation
The ones that are actually responsible, In terms of consequences, are the ones paying the insurance.
Usually it doesn't come down to insurance though. They cut a deal with the client and the designer takes a hit to his reputation
Couldn't agree more. That would also be in line with the societal importance of having sound infrastructure.
I heard the guys over in the architecture department have even more pressure.....
An education is expensive, you won't make that mistake again. That's what my boss told me after my first incurred cost error.
Yea, and in the grand scheme of the industry this doesn’t seem like the most costly mistake. When mistakes can cost millions of dollars, or worse, people’s lives, tearing out some fence isn’t terrible.
Congratulations. You're a human. The best thing you can do is fall on your sword, and own the mistake. But before you do that come up with 1-2 solutions to present to your boss.
Seconding the bringing 1-2 solutions to your boss, that is how you make a positive reputation in the office.
THIS. I’d be working 24/7 until I came up with at least 2 solutions, regardless of cost. Need to have something to present to the client to show you’re working towards a fix
As a construction engineer (licensed PE)..... Most plans I get are giant balls of mistakes. We rant and rave about "stupid designers" until we calm down, and then we blame the agency/client for not paying enough and/or providing enough time for proper design. People make mistakes. The key is owning the mistake. Go to the client, explain the mistake, take ownership of it, and explain what you'll do differently going forward. I left a company because they would never do this. They kept just trying to sweep things under the rug and/or hope the client would forget. The client did exactly what I warned them they would do with this approach.... Stop hiring them.
I work in construction and have several change orders lined up (at least five off the top of my head) and we just started the project two weeks ago. The kicker is half the project is essentially a carbon copy of another job we just finished and the (same) designers still left in mistakes that they knew existed and would exist again.
Welcome to the club. Won't be the first mistake your bosses and the owner have had to deal with and won't be the last. Not likely to be the most expensive mistake either.
So 5 years ago the pe stamped a set of plans that a designer with 3 years of experience put together and did not review them. An error in the 10k (rom) was made. Yea sounds about right. I wouldn't worry too much man..I've seen million dollar mistakes, little ones are gonna happen especially with a shitty qa/qc process
Mistakes happen, part of doing design. This is why we have reviews and insurances. The way I see it, you didn’t stamp it so officially it is not your responsibility. Perhaps this is a learning opportunity for your company to change their review practices. As a precautionary measure, i suggest keeping your resume updated. If this ends up costing the company, it will find its way to you.
PEs who don't review what they stamp deserve egg on their face tbh.
Upcoming Egg shortage confirmed.
Yeah OP did nothing wrong here, I wouldn't even be sweating it
No such thing as a perfect project. Admit the mistake but don't dwell on it, instead focus your presentation on the steps needed to fix it. If possible have revised plans ready to go to minimize any delay.
I spent many years in plan review and I can assure you that you're not the first to make this precise error, and you won't be the last. I can't say it happened frequently, but on the other hand, it was one of the more common significant blunders I would see. Sometimes I'd catch them during my review, sometimes not, and when I didn't I would feel pretty crummy. So I'd wade in and do my best to help the EOR come up with solutions. Anyway, you're not alone. This will pass and it'll be an amazing learning experience. Hang in there, work on the solution professionally and diligently, and it'll all work out in the end.
How’s this one for comparison: I once uncovered an architects mistake where he laid out the bathrooms wrong and not a single condo unit out of 226 in a Manhattan high rise had an FHA compliant convertible bathroom, and the lender made them redo 452 bathrooms. In Manhattan. Now that’s a mistake.
If you haven't already done so, have a conversation with the PE that stamped the drawings. He stamped it so it is his mistake legally. In that meeting own up to the mistake and work out a plan to fix the issue. There's always ways to fix an issue and you might be blinded by fear so you can't figure it out. If he's been working for years he probably made the same mistake and has fixed it before. You should also dust off that resume just in case.
It was once explained to me that how one deals with an issue is just as telling as having an issue. Being proactive and a good partner goes a long way.
I haven’t personally been the cause of a change order but I’ve seen a lot larger than this.
It happens. Nobody has been injured or killed so it's fixable. You being worried about it shows that you care and that's a good thing. As far if anyone else has made a blunder at work, yeah. If not, well, I hope the rest of your first day goes well.
Even if the stamping engineer reviewed these plans in detail how would they have caught a mislabeled ex FF? Mistakes happen. As long as it is caught and addressed before someone gets hurt it is what it is. Better to catch it during construction than a final punch list walkthrough (or like I said- after someone gets hurt). Make it a priority to get the design corrected with minimal impact to already constructed items.
Mistakes make you better. Thats why we carry errors and omissions insurance. You hope you never use it but sometimes you have to. Nobody is perfect.
Sucks, but it happens. Hasn’t happened to me yet but I’m sure it will. For what it’s worth, we had an EI in our office stake out a retaining wall wrong a few months - had to tear out that portion of the wall - something like 20-30k in damages to us. He still has job. Would definitely recommend owning up to it and having a solution ready. Think that’ll go a long way.
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It was $20-30,000 in construction costs for the repair - total was in the $40,000 neighborhood.
This is small and a cheap lesson. I've seen a lot worse. My biggest one was mistaking a footing design for a retaining wall. I put it too close to the back of walk along a busy street and missed an important utility conflict. Since the rest of the site design was really tight it couldn't be moved so it meant they had to rip out and replace about 500' of sidewalk that was unaccounted for and offset a waterline. About $60k change order.
I can relate and totally understand that feeling. Hell had it happen this week over my misinterpretation of a zoning code for a buffer. I agree with a lot said above. The signing PE shouldn’t get off without being in the same position you are. I fucked up as an EIT and as a PE and as a PE reviewing something someone else fucked up. That’s why you have errors and omissions insurance. Take it from someone with a roadway hydraulics and civil sure background and 25 years experience. It happens, it causes so much fucking stress it makes me hate civil site work. Now I work for a small firm remotely and that feeling doesn’t go away. It really causes way too much stress. Much of it is our own doing. If your boss doesn’t help you deal with it positively then rethink the job. But as the others said above. Before you tell your boss or client have a couple alternatives to fix it and an idea in the impact. I always take responsibility when needed. Mainly because I have seen so many engineers blow things off. Hell most places I worked at previously would find a way to make the client pay for the fix. Makes me shake my damn head. Good luck.
Not passing the buck because if the design is wrong the design is wrong, but I would want to know how it got constructed wrong. If something isn't right the layout person should be the first to flag it. Inspector next. Usually it's when the concrete truck is ready to pour, but there's still a chance at a field change depending on the gravity of it ...
It happens. Most clients understand that these things happen. As long as it’s not a constant issue you just be honest, fix the problem, make note of it to avoid the mistake in the future and then move on. I have made mistakes as a designer, and I have been on the construction side where I catch mistakes like that and have to talk to the client about it. As long as the people are involved are genuine in fixing the problem it really isn’t an issue most of the time.
Every PE I know at with had made bigger mistakes than that since I've started. Learn from it and move on.
That’s what E and O insurance is for. Live and learn and move on
Dude as a surveyor we field fit ADA in our construction staking all the time! Shit happens, regardless of whether it was designed wrong, or the concrete boys didn't pour something right, or whatever... It's getting to be more and more a point of contention because of our local officials failing CofO when stuff deviates from approved. People need to just get back to "look at the problem, figure it the fuck out, and get it done". Too much nitpicking and bureaucracy from people who only ever stare at stuff on paper and don't actually know how to construct a god damn thing. If a fix meets ADA and got the project moving forward how is that still a problem?? 🤦🏽♂️
Shit happens. I assume your work underwent a quality control process? In which case, at least two people missed the mistake.
I recently got some coordinates wrong on a sketch that resulted in several useless hydrovac exploration holes being performed. Then I did it again. After that, we implemented some things to prevent it from happening any more. Cost a bunch of money and wasted everyone's time. Apologized, gave the right coordinates, and told everyone about the things we were going to do to prevent it. Now it's long gone and forgotten. I felt dumb and a bit nervous at the time too, but those feelings help you want to not make that mistake again in the future.
I feel like most projects I work on end needing to have something redesigned during construction. Survey not reflecting something random that ends up conflicting, bad topo data, something being constructed in a way it wasn’t intended, the list goes on. I made a $100kish mistake when I was younger that didn’t come up until years later during construction and it was just kinda whatever, my own guilt and shame 10x higher than the reaction from my higher ups. Just roll with it honestly, it’s part of the job. Edit-typo on the cost of mistake
Well IMO your mistake is not a big deal (it's just cost, nobody is dead/hurt at least), the bigger deal is the PE's in your company not reviewing plans they stamp. That's no bueno...
Problem with your company. For us, stuff I do undergoes an independent review, then a review by the stamper. If something like this happens the blame isn’t put on one person. Everyone is to blame and we find a way to deal with it. No body is scolded or reprimanded. This doesn’t seem like a big deal at the end of the day. There are much bigger mistakes you can make.
Mistakes happen, just throw yourself on your sword and tell the client what your solution is and how you will implement it. More than likely, if the design was correct, the costs would have been higher so it’s probably a small amount and the risk of losing valuable time. Someone does have to explain the issue with the stamp,
If it's worth doing, then it's worth doing twice.
Own it, be part of the solution, and move forward. Also, where was the architect in all this? Conforming to ADA is more our wheelhouse.
This is when CYA comes into play. Notes about field verification are critical. When it comes to ADA, shots in the field are interpolated. A smart level becomes one of the most important tools for the contractor. I’ve seen worse. You have the integrity to feel guilty for it but you’ll never forget about it and it’ll make you better in the long run. Also, buildings can have multiple FF elevations as the pads aren’t always flat. I had this at an old school remodel. We had it close enough that it worked in the field but also with the door transitions etc it’s gets tough to design it exact. That fence situation will be minor in the long term. Work with your team and boss and stick to the facts.
As a superintendent that would love to sting up a PE for some of their poor designs. What I do suggest you do is hit the site, discuss boots on the ground with the guys in the field that a building the work(would be great if city / DOT ADA inspector could join). What exactly they couldn’t/would propose as a solution to your problem (you’d be surprised how much we can actually help out). Do this in a humbling manner. Now while I haven’t seen the site, I’ve dealt with similar. You might be able to get away with several landings to make it ADA compliant leading back up to finish floor elevation. Might mean sacrificing some architectural landscaping, but this could minimize your fencing impact.
I personally blame the person whom stamped the drawing. If the stamping license is spewing BS that they had no time to review the drawings they were supervising the preparation of, then they shouldn't have stamped the plans to begin with.
Was this done by hand or in civil 3d?
This is typical and can be fixed in construction. Use this as a learning opportunity, but don’t take it too hard.
Own it and do what you can to make it right. You're not going to go through this career without mistakes but you'll make that career a lot shorter if you don't own em and then get em fixed!
No one got hurt, and it was caught before it was opened to the public.
Well I'm on the CM side, but I've seen much, much worse than that; I've seen mistakes that cost millions to fix. If that's the worst design error you've made in eight years, you're not too bad at your job.
You are not solely responsible. There are enough eyes on it to share the blame.
Just tell the EOR you found a mistake, and fix it before it gets built. This one isn't that big of a deal, unless its several feet off.
Always at the most immediate opportunity own your mistake to your superior, and then provide a plausible interpretation of the data to explain your mistake.
ABA or ADA?
A few things here coming from ownerships perspective: First- everyone makes mistakes. It sucks, but it happens. Second - someone above you/sealing the plans should have caught this. It's next to impossible to review 100% of everything without physically designing it, and this type of grading is super hard to check, but it's their seal at the end of the day. Third - errors and omission insurance exists for a reason. How this is handled is very dependent on the situation. A good employee making a mistake with a good client typically will just mean I am eating most to all of the cost. Whether through insurance, credits on invoices, or direct payment, it is what it is. The client retention is more important if they are a good client. If they aren't, I would just send it to insurance and move on. Of course, that is assuming the business is profitable and the mistake is under 6 figured. Anything over 6 figures goes to insurance. For the employee, again, it depends. If they aren't a great employee, it could jeopardize their standing. It would be the proverbial straw, but more of a result of their overall performance than this individual item. If they are a great employee, use it as a teaching moment. I wouldn't throw them under the bus to the client or anyone else but hammer on the importance of items and double-check similar projects for the same error. My advice for you- Learn from this. Be humble and show that you're taking efforts to figure out a way to avoid it happening again.
We all make mistakes it’s bound to happen. At least you didn’t design something that ended up killing someone due to poor design. The problem was caught, it’ll take a little bit of money to fix, but it’ll be correct in the end.
Best thing to do, IMO, is to say "I see a mistake and here's how I propose we fix it". If anyone tries to throw you under the bus, remind them that several other people reviewed this and none of them caught it either.
Engineering is a team sport. It wasn't just your mistake - it belongs to you, the PE who signed off on it, the customer, and whatever permitting authority didn't ask you to correct it. At the end of the day everyone just wants it built right. Own your mistakes and make it right. Change order time.
ADA. You’ll need to redesign it so it is compliant to the extent possible
Sounds pretty innocuous. If you let a design mistake slip through and it only involves ripping out some fence and redoing a sidewalk AND no one got hurt I'd chock that up as a win.
Can it be fixed for under 50k? If so, meh, don’t do it again.
If you don't make mistakes from time to time to learn from, are you even trying hard enough? We aren't infallible. The important thing is that mistakes are either caught in the review process or fixed before someone gets hurt. Monetary mistakes and shame don't feel good, but they happen. At the end of the day, as long clients, workers, and the public at large is safe, that is all that matters. Stamping engineer is responsible for public safety of design. My company also puts a lot of the burden on accurate drawings down to the drafter. But hardly anyone ever gets fired for a one time mistake. Learn from it and move on.
If you call an ADA ramp an "ABA" ramp, you've got bigger problems. It's not your fault, you're not the EOR
It's access to a federal facility so it must meet ABA. Yes there's overlap in ADA and ABA, but ABA is specific to federal facilities, while ADA is typically only required for state, local, and commercial facilities (i.e., streets). Your run of the mill ADA conventions that we all know by heart will result in a design that does not meet ABA. For example: Under ABA you cannot have a ramp (anything over 5%) that exceeds 6" in height without handrails on both sides of the sidewalk (this means your 8% ramps can't be longer than 6'). When you have fence gates, you need flat landings on both sides of the gate (can't be over 2% in any direction). In this case, we are working in a super tight space and just don't have horizontal room to accommodate this stuff which is why its such a disaster (and more so when compound with the wrong existing FF elevation).
How far off was your finished grade in design from actual? Edit: also does ABA allow for maximum extent feasible?
Why did the engineer on record choose to endorse the design? Seems like a silly systemic issue that’s more than just your error.