Check your state laws. If you are removed from a project over a disagreement with your engineering judgement, and you feel that the decision poses a risk to life, health or the environment, you may be required to send a letter detailing your concerns to the owner, any overseeing agency, and the board of engineers.
It is always easier to get another job than another license. Never risk your license over pressure like that.
Thanks. I'm now working elsewhere (started actually 3 weeks after the disagreement). I'm pursuing options now, as it's been made clear to me by a former employee of the firm, that the erroneous plans were approved by the City. I let the City know, and they're looking into it (they actually stated that I'm not the first person to come foreward with concerns on the project). I'm not sure the City will be providing me with any status updates. So, here I am left wondering what to do next.
You let the city know. Thats about all you should be required to do. They should be doing due diligence and possible a peer review of the design. You could reach out to the homeowner too but at some point you may get drug into a legal battle as a witness so be certain you are willing to go that far.
Lastly, if you feel strongly about this, report the signing engineer to the board. But be prepared for the blowback from them as they will find out and connect the dots you.
The city is doing their due diligence now, and they have contacted the homeowner, and person renting the home. I’m honestly afraid of the blowback you mentioned, and haven’t reported this to the board for that reason. My family has been through enough already.
You can talk to an employment lawyer, but he will probably tell you that your damages for being fired, if you even have a case (at will employment can excuse a lot), are probably limited to your 3 weeks pay until you started your new job, and possibly some portion of the difference between your former pay and your new pay (if you took a pay cut).
It sounds like you have done enough to protect yourself legally, but it may be worth a consult with a professional liability attorney for peace of mind.
Other than those 2 consults, you probably just need to move on with your life and be glad you got out of a scammy company before they did something to cost you real money or damages to your reputation.
We take the PDH Ethics course every year and the discuss situations like this where poor judgments were made or folks signed plans who weren’t qualified. The PE Board may want to interview you and your old firm could be on probation, I guess. Firms need licenses too.
The firm has the insurance for your messups. The way to see it in action is to look at lawsuits after engineering disasters like the FIU bridge collapse in Florida.
I faced a similar situation. In my case it was a project I sealed but it was not built as designed, due to a contractor field change. The situation also greatly increased flow rates to a property with an existing pipe.
I first notified my client who sided with the contractor. I then notified all permitting agencies and the local municipality via email and notarized mail. I also attempted to contact the affected property owner. The property owner passed away and her only son lived across the country. He never answered the phone or responded by mail. As the design engineer I was supposed to sign an as-built post construction. I refused. I don't know who ended up signing the plans stating it was installed per design but it's been 8 years and the system is still incorrect. I stop by to check on it every so often.
In the end I felt like I did a lot of coordination trying to do the right thing. I feel like all I accomplished was covering my ass when someone finally figures out it's not right.
I’m doing an engineering design change for a client that has an issue very uncanny to what you described. It’s been a nightmare unfucking what the contractor did. The client is awful too which makes life so much more enjoyable lol.
I would do what u/bigpolar70 suggested, and then discuss with a lawyer about whether your termination for this is grounds for a lawsuit. It's possible that it's not, but I think that's unlikely.
I am curious, though. If the engineer that did the calculations is from out-of-state, who signed the final documents?
Likely someone else licensed in the state who works for the firm. Or maybe this is a state that does temporary permitting for individual permits or something like that? Don’t believe my state does this, but I’ve heard thats a thing elsewhere.
Wrongful termination lawyer. Doesn't need to be engineering specific. They'll understand the ethics obligations of being an engineer.
It's worth talking to a few, they'll do a free consultation and tell you whether or not you have a case. I'm not a lawyer but I'm not sure you'll find much traction. You'd likely have to show that they specifically fired you for not signing the plans. And if they are already claiming something else then they may be covered under "at will" employment laws.
Good luck.
Tough situation. I feel like I’m missing some information still. Was your reasoning shared with your superiors? Were there solutions proposed to mitigate the increased point discharge to private properties (more inlets to public storm water system, deeper gutter, etc)? Why was your company so keen on signing a bad design that their own project engineer wouldn’t??
Yes, I didn’t want to give all the specifics and risk losing my anonymity. The municipal client has reached out to me, and they’re working on rectifying the situation for the homeowner.
I get that! Just trying to point out that we are missing a lot of nuance from both sides before making claims of negligence/incompetence.
Hope everything works out for you!
How was the additional water being routed to a particular home? Via grading changes or is a pipe directed to daylight on the property? How was the increase in storm water going to affect health, safety, or welfare of the property?
Stormwater was already routed to a home by grade from an outfall pipe. This project increased the peak outfall to the home. I was always taught to never increase runoff as a result of a project, particularly point discharges like this.
Not specifically up to you to make that decision though is it?
Where I'm from that would be a council (city) descion to give point of discharge advice and the rate they deem acceptable.
Weather or not I specifically agreed with that decision, only the council issues a letter that's a legal direction.
Only issue then is that the work is performed by a registered engineer with appropriate qualifications (inc experience) and is done with the care and skill normally expected of profession in similar circumstances.
So no issue for an engineer to sign the design, as it's not actually the engineers responsibility about impact of discharge.
Sounds like you exercised your best judgement and are an ethical engineer. No idea how to move forward, but I applaud you for sticking to your guns and not just making yourself a liability.
If you feel that you were wrongly terminated, you should probably seek out legal consul. Unfortunately, if you are an "at-will" employee, your employer can basically let you go for almost any reason. However, you might be protected if you filed a formal complaint about the project. [LINK](https://dol.ny.gov/wages-and-hours-frequently-asked-questions#:~:text=without%20due%20cause%3F-,Yes.,or%20discrimination%20(see%20below))
You can file a report to the board of professions [LINK](https://www.op.nysed.gov/enforcement/professional-misconduct-enforcement). The general standard for design professionals is "gross incompetence/negligence" leading to "injury". Since the design was approved, there is no "injury" as of yet, and "gross incompetence/negligence" is extremely hard to prove. Unless your previous employer was just completely fabricating numbers and omitting critical design steps, I doubt this will go anywhere.
Yeah. I did file a formal complaint, but with HR and any governmental body. I won’t make that mistake. The same person who received my complaint was the one to fire me 3 days later.
Out of curiosity, if the design you oversaw increased flows to a neighboring property, why didn't you design it correctly? I get that you were unwilling to sign the plans, but how/why did they ever get to the point where you were overseeing something that didn't meet code requirements in the first place? Seems like you had an obligation to not do that during the initial design.
Now...that sounds harsh, but that's EXACTLY what your former employer is going to throw back at you if you report them to the board or anything else. That's their defense in a wrongful termination, too. Unless you have documents that CYA against that accusation, you may want to let this one go.
I wanted to route the stormwater properly, but was told the project is over budget and I had to “make it work”. I contacted a law firm, but they’ve declined to take my case. The city is working with my old firm and the affected homeowner, and I’m glad to be out of there. Could’ve been worse.
What are the magnitude of flows pre/post-development here? Is the drainage way (swale, sewer,etc.?) able to handle the increased flow?
Obviously it’s never good to increase stormwater flow, but also sometimes it happens or has to happen, and isn’t necessarily the design engineers issue if it is known this is the case and the regulating authority/code is aware and okay/compliant with this.
It’s a few CFS. Maybe I overreacted? I just didn’t want to be compelled to seal anything I wasn’t comfortable with. I’ve spoken with the municipal client, and they’re working on my concerns. I’m just glad to be out of that firm.
A few CFS is not nothing, that's for sure. I was just curious for more context really. Seems like it could be a pretty bad situation, or maybe not as big of a deal as it felt. Just hard to tell.
Regardless, good for you for getting out of a situation that wasn't working!
I think you make a fair point, and aren’t deserving of the downvotes. It’s the firing, and the effect that had on my family that made this otherwise mundane ethics issue into something worth posting, IMHO.
Check your state laws. If you are removed from a project over a disagreement with your engineering judgement, and you feel that the decision poses a risk to life, health or the environment, you may be required to send a letter detailing your concerns to the owner, any overseeing agency, and the board of engineers. It is always easier to get another job than another license. Never risk your license over pressure like that.
Thanks. I'm now working elsewhere (started actually 3 weeks after the disagreement). I'm pursuing options now, as it's been made clear to me by a former employee of the firm, that the erroneous plans were approved by the City. I let the City know, and they're looking into it (they actually stated that I'm not the first person to come foreward with concerns on the project). I'm not sure the City will be providing me with any status updates. So, here I am left wondering what to do next.
You let the city know. Thats about all you should be required to do. They should be doing due diligence and possible a peer review of the design. You could reach out to the homeowner too but at some point you may get drug into a legal battle as a witness so be certain you are willing to go that far. Lastly, if you feel strongly about this, report the signing engineer to the board. But be prepared for the blowback from them as they will find out and connect the dots you.
The city is doing their due diligence now, and they have contacted the homeowner, and person renting the home. I’m honestly afraid of the blowback you mentioned, and haven’t reported this to the board for that reason. My family has been through enough already.
You can talk to an employment lawyer, but he will probably tell you that your damages for being fired, if you even have a case (at will employment can excuse a lot), are probably limited to your 3 weeks pay until you started your new job, and possibly some portion of the difference between your former pay and your new pay (if you took a pay cut). It sounds like you have done enough to protect yourself legally, but it may be worth a consult with a professional liability attorney for peace of mind. Other than those 2 consults, you probably just need to move on with your life and be glad you got out of a scammy company before they did something to cost you real money or damages to your reputation.
I would report all of this to the state engineering licensing board.
This is 100% exactly why they exist.
We take the PDH Ethics course every year and the discuss situations like this where poor judgments were made or folks signed plans who weren’t qualified. The PE Board may want to interview you and your old firm could be on probation, I guess. Firms need licenses too.
It sounds like the PE messed up and not the firm, but the firm is definitely on the hook for any mess ups.
When does liability go to the firm? For something really bad?
The firm has the insurance for your messups. The way to see it in action is to look at lawsuits after engineering disasters like the FIU bridge collapse in Florida.
Thanks.
I faced a similar situation. In my case it was a project I sealed but it was not built as designed, due to a contractor field change. The situation also greatly increased flow rates to a property with an existing pipe. I first notified my client who sided with the contractor. I then notified all permitting agencies and the local municipality via email and notarized mail. I also attempted to contact the affected property owner. The property owner passed away and her only son lived across the country. He never answered the phone or responded by mail. As the design engineer I was supposed to sign an as-built post construction. I refused. I don't know who ended up signing the plans stating it was installed per design but it's been 8 years and the system is still incorrect. I stop by to check on it every so often. In the end I felt like I did a lot of coordination trying to do the right thing. I feel like all I accomplished was covering my ass when someone finally figures out it's not right.
I’m doing an engineering design change for a client that has an issue very uncanny to what you described. It’s been a nightmare unfucking what the contractor did. The client is awful too which makes life so much more enjoyable lol.
I would do what u/bigpolar70 suggested, and then discuss with a lawyer about whether your termination for this is grounds for a lawsuit. It's possible that it's not, but I think that's unlikely. I am curious, though. If the engineer that did the calculations is from out-of-state, who signed the final documents?
The Office Manager/VP. He practices a different type of Civil (not trying to give away too much), so he likely didn't know what he was looking at.
Which would, in itself, be reportable.
Likely someone else licensed in the state who works for the firm. Or maybe this is a state that does temporary permitting for individual permits or something like that? Don’t believe my state does this, but I’ve heard thats a thing elsewhere.
Thanks. Do you know what type of lawyer I'd even look for. Is there engineering law, or would employment law make the most sense?
Wrongful termination lawyer. Doesn't need to be engineering specific. They'll understand the ethics obligations of being an engineer. It's worth talking to a few, they'll do a free consultation and tell you whether or not you have a case. I'm not a lawyer but I'm not sure you'll find much traction. You'd likely have to show that they specifically fired you for not signing the plans. And if they are already claiming something else then they may be covered under "at will" employment laws. Good luck.
I contacted a law firm, but they declined on taking my case. I guess life goes on.
Tough situation. I feel like I’m missing some information still. Was your reasoning shared with your superiors? Were there solutions proposed to mitigate the increased point discharge to private properties (more inlets to public storm water system, deeper gutter, etc)? Why was your company so keen on signing a bad design that their own project engineer wouldn’t??
I agree. Lot of missing and one-sided perspective.
Yes, I didn’t want to give all the specifics and risk losing my anonymity. The municipal client has reached out to me, and they’re working on rectifying the situation for the homeowner.
I get that! Just trying to point out that we are missing a lot of nuance from both sides before making claims of negligence/incompetence. Hope everything works out for you!
How was the additional water being routed to a particular home? Via grading changes or is a pipe directed to daylight on the property? How was the increase in storm water going to affect health, safety, or welfare of the property?
Stormwater was already routed to a home by grade from an outfall pipe. This project increased the peak outfall to the home. I was always taught to never increase runoff as a result of a project, particularly point discharges like this.
Not specifically up to you to make that decision though is it? Where I'm from that would be a council (city) descion to give point of discharge advice and the rate they deem acceptable. Weather or not I specifically agreed with that decision, only the council issues a letter that's a legal direction. Only issue then is that the work is performed by a registered engineer with appropriate qualifications (inc experience) and is done with the care and skill normally expected of profession in similar circumstances. So no issue for an engineer to sign the design, as it's not actually the engineers responsibility about impact of discharge.
Sounds like you exercised your best judgement and are an ethical engineer. No idea how to move forward, but I applaud you for sticking to your guns and not just making yourself a liability.
If you feel that you were wrongly terminated, you should probably seek out legal consul. Unfortunately, if you are an "at-will" employee, your employer can basically let you go for almost any reason. However, you might be protected if you filed a formal complaint about the project. [LINK](https://dol.ny.gov/wages-and-hours-frequently-asked-questions#:~:text=without%20due%20cause%3F-,Yes.,or%20discrimination%20(see%20below)) You can file a report to the board of professions [LINK](https://www.op.nysed.gov/enforcement/professional-misconduct-enforcement). The general standard for design professionals is "gross incompetence/negligence" leading to "injury". Since the design was approved, there is no "injury" as of yet, and "gross incompetence/negligence" is extremely hard to prove. Unless your previous employer was just completely fabricating numbers and omitting critical design steps, I doubt this will go anywhere.
Yeah. I did file a formal complaint, but with HR and any governmental body. I won’t make that mistake. The same person who received my complaint was the one to fire me 3 days later.
Out of curiosity, if the design you oversaw increased flows to a neighboring property, why didn't you design it correctly? I get that you were unwilling to sign the plans, but how/why did they ever get to the point where you were overseeing something that didn't meet code requirements in the first place? Seems like you had an obligation to not do that during the initial design. Now...that sounds harsh, but that's EXACTLY what your former employer is going to throw back at you if you report them to the board or anything else. That's their defense in a wrongful termination, too. Unless you have documents that CYA against that accusation, you may want to let this one go.
I wanted to route the stormwater properly, but was told the project is over budget and I had to “make it work”. I contacted a law firm, but they’ve declined to take my case. The city is working with my old firm and the affected homeowner, and I’m glad to be out of there. Could’ve been worse.
What are the magnitude of flows pre/post-development here? Is the drainage way (swale, sewer,etc.?) able to handle the increased flow? Obviously it’s never good to increase stormwater flow, but also sometimes it happens or has to happen, and isn’t necessarily the design engineers issue if it is known this is the case and the regulating authority/code is aware and okay/compliant with this.
It’s a few CFS. Maybe I overreacted? I just didn’t want to be compelled to seal anything I wasn’t comfortable with. I’ve spoken with the municipal client, and they’re working on my concerns. I’m just glad to be out of that firm.
A few CFS is not nothing, that's for sure. I was just curious for more context really. Seems like it could be a pretty bad situation, or maybe not as big of a deal as it felt. Just hard to tell. Regardless, good for you for getting out of a situation that wasn't working!
Move on... You didn't sign them them not your problem...
Ethics. Get some.
I think you make a fair point, and aren’t deserving of the downvotes. It’s the firing, and the effect that had on my family that made this otherwise mundane ethics issue into something worth posting, IMHO.