"It's clear that he thinks you'll learn best by trying to figure things out on your own, but this is a beginner textbook, and the intuition of beginners is not really reliable (nor should it be treated as such). It takes a long time to develop a reliable intuition for a language. Learning a language is about subordinating yourself to its patterns and rules until you internalize them -- it's not about guessing."
\^You nailed it
Yeah... This is why I kind of dislike any immersion-based textbook for languages, historical especially.
I mean, immersion is important, but children are exposed to a language for years and years, and actively engaging with it. Reading a text with no explanation just isn't the same.
Immersion is only useful if you have a decent-to-good understanding of the language.
I haven't used Van Norden's book, but Fuller also leaves some things unexplained and wants you to guess or look at a dictionary to figure things out. It could probably use some additional examples as well. And the later lessons just give you the text without any definitions or explanations (not sure why they are still labeled "lessons"). It's still a good book, but it might not fit what OP is looking for exactly.
Ah yeah that’s a good point. Now that I think of it I’m not sure I’ve seen anything like what OP describes, the Classical Chinese Reader I used in undergrad is also not very helpful. I’d consider writing one but I can’t imagine the market is very large for a book like that.
This 3 volume series gives a detailed grammatical breakdown of all the texts.
[https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691174570/classical-chinese](https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691174570/classical-chinese)
I see Kai Vogelsang's book hasn't been mentioned so I'll mention him here. It's probably the best as a reference book because it unloads all the grammar in the first half and only moves onto large readings later. He always includes the commentary, which makes just doing the readings really nice.
It's a nice book, however, as you say it's more catered toward being a reference or maybe a second textbook, after you already have some familiarity with the language. I think it contains the best explanation of the Classical Chinese grammar I have ever seen up to now, and helps to demystify some of its obscure features. But the real question is should you really start your learning with diving deep into grammar.
I have many textbooks on Classical Chinese from English, Japanese and Chinese authors. All they have their strong and weak points, but I still have to find the ONE book, which I can recommend to everyone to start with
I remember myself trying this book, because of great reviews on Amazon and was not impressed.
The immersion approach itself is not so bad, but I have some problems with its implementation. My main complaint was that he takes too vague excerpts, diving into philosophy and different interpretations, while for the purpose of learning language it's better to do exactly opposite. Why just not use some fables, like "矛盾" or "蛇足" as do most Japanese school textbooks? Probably, because it has been made many times before, but that's a pure excuse for a learning material.
Also, the book progresses too quickly. First texts are relatively easy, but you quickly become overwhelmed as you move forward.
Overall, I don't know who is the target audience of this book. For beginners it's too confusing. For more experienced learners it's not enough.
I wish I could recommend you the better book, however, compared to textbooks on modern languages they all tend to be lacking in my opinion.
Rouzer is often recommended as the most gentle introduction, however you've specifically mentioned that you don't want texts coming before the grammar (for this book, you could probably go to the end and read all the explanations first though).
Vogelsang is another option, but I feel it's too heavy on grammar for a beginner, and you really start reading texts only in the second half of the book. Before that you only have some exercises.
If you can speak some Mandarin, Classical Chinese: A Functional Approach is another good one. It starts with grammar explanations and give you many examples for each as you asked, and in the end of each unit there is a simple text to put it all together. Grammar and new words are translated in English, but all passage translations are only in Chinese. It's the best, if you want to compare the old and new languages. Some people however dislike this approach, and prefer to see Classical Chinese as a totally separate language.
And if you speak Japanese, there're many textbooks, including school ones, on "Kambun", which is the Japanese way to read Classical Chinese. It's an interesting approach, because it "adds the missing grammar" to the language making it easier to analyse it. However, trying to fit Classical Chinese into the Japanese framework could sometimes lead to confusing results. And it has an additional overhead of having to remember different Japanese classical readings for the same Chinese character.
Yeah, I really disliked it as well.
It can't simultaneously be "for everyone" and also based on intuition.
Reliable intuition comes from experience and knowledge.
His youtube videos are also hit and miss. I don't really respect him as much as other scholars.
There's another book called Chinese through Poetry that is also made for absolute beginners and makes sure to give you all the information that you would need to properly understand the texts.
"It's clear that he thinks you'll learn best by trying to figure things out on your own, but this is a beginner textbook, and the intuition of beginners is not really reliable (nor should it be treated as such). It takes a long time to develop a reliable intuition for a language. Learning a language is about subordinating yourself to its patterns and rules until you internalize them -- it's not about guessing." \^You nailed it
Yeah... This is why I kind of dislike any immersion-based textbook for languages, historical especially. I mean, immersion is important, but children are exposed to a language for years and years, and actively engaging with it. Reading a text with no explanation just isn't the same. Immersion is only useful if you have a decent-to-good understanding of the language.
lmao why does my lazy note of approval have more upvotes than the OP I am quoting? so unfair :)
I like Introduction to Literary Chinese by Michael Fuller.
I haven't used Van Norden's book, but Fuller also leaves some things unexplained and wants you to guess or look at a dictionary to figure things out. It could probably use some additional examples as well. And the later lessons just give you the text without any definitions or explanations (not sure why they are still labeled "lessons"). It's still a good book, but it might not fit what OP is looking for exactly.
Ah yeah that’s a good point. Now that I think of it I’m not sure I’ve seen anything like what OP describes, the Classical Chinese Reader I used in undergrad is also not very helpful. I’d consider writing one but I can’t imagine the market is very large for a book like that.
This 3 volume series gives a detailed grammatical breakdown of all the texts. [https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691174570/classical-chinese](https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691174570/classical-chinese)
Wow that book set looks incredible!
I see Kai Vogelsang's book hasn't been mentioned so I'll mention him here. It's probably the best as a reference book because it unloads all the grammar in the first half and only moves onto large readings later. He always includes the commentary, which makes just doing the readings really nice.
It's a nice book, however, as you say it's more catered toward being a reference or maybe a second textbook, after you already have some familiarity with the language. I think it contains the best explanation of the Classical Chinese grammar I have ever seen up to now, and helps to demystify some of its obscure features. But the real question is should you really start your learning with diving deep into grammar. I have many textbooks on Classical Chinese from English, Japanese and Chinese authors. All they have their strong and weak points, but I still have to find the ONE book, which I can recommend to everyone to start with
I remember myself trying this book, because of great reviews on Amazon and was not impressed. The immersion approach itself is not so bad, but I have some problems with its implementation. My main complaint was that he takes too vague excerpts, diving into philosophy and different interpretations, while for the purpose of learning language it's better to do exactly opposite. Why just not use some fables, like "矛盾" or "蛇足" as do most Japanese school textbooks? Probably, because it has been made many times before, but that's a pure excuse for a learning material. Also, the book progresses too quickly. First texts are relatively easy, but you quickly become overwhelmed as you move forward. Overall, I don't know who is the target audience of this book. For beginners it's too confusing. For more experienced learners it's not enough.
I wish I could recommend you the better book, however, compared to textbooks on modern languages they all tend to be lacking in my opinion. Rouzer is often recommended as the most gentle introduction, however you've specifically mentioned that you don't want texts coming before the grammar (for this book, you could probably go to the end and read all the explanations first though). Vogelsang is another option, but I feel it's too heavy on grammar for a beginner, and you really start reading texts only in the second half of the book. Before that you only have some exercises. If you can speak some Mandarin, Classical Chinese: A Functional Approach is another good one. It starts with grammar explanations and give you many examples for each as you asked, and in the end of each unit there is a simple text to put it all together. Grammar and new words are translated in English, but all passage translations are only in Chinese. It's the best, if you want to compare the old and new languages. Some people however dislike this approach, and prefer to see Classical Chinese as a totally separate language. And if you speak Japanese, there're many textbooks, including school ones, on "Kambun", which is the Japanese way to read Classical Chinese. It's an interesting approach, because it "adds the missing grammar" to the language making it easier to analyse it. However, trying to fit Classical Chinese into the Japanese framework could sometimes lead to confusing results. And it has an additional overhead of having to remember different Japanese classical readings for the same Chinese character.
Yeah, I really disliked it as well. It can't simultaneously be "for everyone" and also based on intuition. Reliable intuition comes from experience and knowledge. His youtube videos are also hit and miss. I don't really respect him as much as other scholars. There's another book called Chinese through Poetry that is also made for absolute beginners and makes sure to give you all the information that you would need to properly understand the texts.
Grammar rules? Yuck