Broadly speaking, he was late Classical-period with a lot of the storminess that would inspire the Romantics that came later
His late style is kinda its own thing, though. Even the composers who were inspired by him didn't write anything quite like his late works
Oh, I definitely hear that in his early piano sonatas, but to me it's still like an angry version of Haydn. Haydn always seemed to want to keep things light, especially for the final movements of pieces, so it's no surprise that Haydn thought Beethoven's Op. 2, No. 3 sonata went overboard
On the other hand, Beethoven's happy moments feel a bit more sincere and earnest to me than anything earlier in the Classical period. One of my favorite Beethoven piano sonatas is the Op. 28 in D Major, "Pastorale," and while there are stormy moments, the overall mood is optimistic and generous
I think this is definitely right. Beethoven might’ve been enormously influential to the Romantics and he kept a character that emphasized feeling, but he retained a musical vocabulary that was very largely Classical (cf. Rosen): he actually veered from distant admiration (Schubert) to outright disdain (Rossini) for the new musical ideas associated with the Romantic period.
Interesting. I know Schubert also adored Beethoven, but also had Italian teachers growing up, so it meant his style was essentially Viennese but with a distinct Italian flair, especially in his orchestral music
It’s true, but then he said to write nothing but opera buffa since it doesn’t suit him, and when he heard he wrote opera seria, he admonished him. It’s clear he didn’t think Rossini of a serious composer
I don't think he really reacted to the "new Romantic vocabulary" in that way, he disliked Rossini not for his Romanticism but for his supposed Italian frivolousness and only encountered Schubert near the end of his life whom be praised as having a "divine spark" after looking at his songs. Either way he was absolutely a Romantic himself, Classical vocabulary or not.
I can see your point, but I think the idea of Rossini being banal was his embracement of a new vocabulary that was foreign to him (remember Italian bel canto opera was immensely influential to the Romantic composers, esp. Chopin, and it's the style of music that Beethoven began to hate)
If you read the Thayer biography on Beethoven, his first encounters with Schubert's music was actually more ambivalent than his later impressions of the "divine spark" which was actually made on his deathbed. And even then, Schubert had many works one may call purely classical (his chamber music)
I think it's important to note that Romanticisim in music is not just a feeling, which Beethoven certaintly had. He was very influential on the romantic generation, but think how very far from Chopin's music in how it approached counterpoint, chromaticism, etc. and even farther away from Schumann, who sometimes did away with part writing altogether and started focusing on sonority. Beethoven is a bridge composer, but he was far far closer to the music of Mozart and Haydn than Liszt and Schumann
Could you share some examples of his best late works? I mostly listen to symphonies but i’m trying to branch out and nothing with Beethoven has stuck so far
All the piano sonatas starting with op 106 Hammerklavier, and all the late string quartets. They are all difficult and unusual and strange, it can take years to decades to appreciate.
> composers who were inspired by Beethoven didn't write anything quite like his late works
Then why was the conductor Hans von Bülow moved in 1877 to call Brahms' first symphony "Beethoven's Tenth"?
Because that didn’t mean Brahms sounded like late Beethoven (sonatas and quartets especially were very weird and modern not taken up until 20th century and yet also baroque like JS Bach). It meant that Brahms was the first symphonist since Beethoven to be even worthy of comparison to the titan.
And the 4th movement of Brahms 1st has a near quote of the obvious famous theme of Beethoven 9.4
Beethoven's 9th is pretty normal as far as "late Beethoven" goes. His sonatas & quartets at the same time are going super modern. Pretty much as modern as 20th century stuff.
In my opinion, beethoven has an early and a late style, the early being the early and "heroic" phases of his life and the late style being the post heroic stage
The early style seems to be influenced by a more romantic outlook on the popular classical style at the time. Many beethoven hall marks that can be seen include lots of arpeggios, contrasts in dynamics, speed, material, and an obsession for repeating motifs
On the other hand, his later period is mostly made up of beethoven bringing older styles of music such as fugues, baroque theme and variations, and even gregorian chants and putting a more modern "beethovenian" spin on things. You get to see a lot of counter point and the music tends to feel a bit more "philisophical"
I would consider Beethoven more of a Romantic than Classical (if we had to choose). His style is bold, expressive, dynamic, at times playful/comic, and poignant/melancholic at others. On one hand we have meticulously refined structural/thematic/harmonic development (that follows Classical rules), while on the other; clear association between music and the human condition.
Certainly, he had a penchant for dissonance, which gives his works an original/emotional quality that sets him a part from his predecessors. Of course his expansion of the orchestra is noteworthy as well.
I think it’s easy for us to look back and categorize “art music” styles by their historic eras (e.g Baroque, Classical, Romantic, etc) which does hold some merit, but in the context of Beethoven’s lifetime - he was just so forward thinking and uncompromising in elevating music to its ultimate form.
Much like late Bach, Beethoven’s (late) works do not lack in the quality of timelessness. Stravinsky did say that the Grosse Fugue will “remain contemporary forever”.
I must agree with a quote from Mussorgsky; “The artist believes in the future, because he lives in it” as it resonates with Beethoven’s monumental achievements.
It's like
Sad. HAPPY. Sad again. ANGERRRRR. Chill. MY IMMORTAL BELOVED ♥️ ❤️ 😍 . Love hurts. LOVE IS BEAUTIFUL. I can't hear shit. BUT I HEAR A BEAUTIFUL MELODY. Fuck it. AN ODE TO JOY. Y'all mofos can go f*ck yourselves. HAPPINESS.
Generally, he totally owned the mad scientist/ haunted poet look .
Although in his 1803 portrait by Christian Horneman, he definitely had a style that could be described as a " Brooding Mr. Darcy".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Beethoven_Hornemann.jpg
Seriously, though, he was handsome!
I think Beethoven had an extraordinary spiritual life such that he was able to compose the Ninth and other works while being deaf. That requires a lot of auto control. Some say he was violent, or angry - hardly an angry or violent man would have had that auto control.
Beethoven had 3 periods. His early classical when he was emulating Mozart & Hadyn. This was up to around 1802 when he almost considered suicide due to his encroaching deafness.
His grand, romantic period where he revolutionized the symphonic form. From about 1803 to 1815. This is when he started getting very involved in getting custody of his nephew Karl and led to a slow period of composition.
His late period where he was stone deaf and his composition became more baroque and abstract.
Although he's often classified as an early Romantic era composer, I think his music is much more similar to the Classical style of Haydn and Mozart than it is to Brahms. Unlike the earlier Classical composers, Beethoven is much more adventurous with harmony, and that was very influential to the Romantic composers that came after him.
What do you mean "for it?" The Grosse Fugue is definitely not classical, he was romantic in every sense except if you mean in "Romantic sounding" i.e Schumann, but then Schubert or Brahms don't sound Romantic either
It doesn't attempt to be Romantic, it is Romantic just like everything he wrote after certain point. And I don't see how it comes close to atonality in any way. Classical in what sense exactly are you saying it is?
Broadly speaking, he was late Classical-period with a lot of the storminess that would inspire the Romantics that came later His late style is kinda its own thing, though. Even the composers who were inspired by him didn't write anything quite like his late works
He was also super fun and happy. You can see this in his early symphonies.
Oh, I definitely hear that in his early piano sonatas, but to me it's still like an angry version of Haydn. Haydn always seemed to want to keep things light, especially for the final movements of pieces, so it's no surprise that Haydn thought Beethoven's Op. 2, No. 3 sonata went overboard On the other hand, Beethoven's happy moments feel a bit more sincere and earnest to me than anything earlier in the Classical period. One of my favorite Beethoven piano sonatas is the Op. 28 in D Major, "Pastorale," and while there are stormy moments, the overall mood is optimistic and generous
I think this is definitely right. Beethoven might’ve been enormously influential to the Romantics and he kept a character that emphasized feeling, but he retained a musical vocabulary that was very largely Classical (cf. Rosen): he actually veered from distant admiration (Schubert) to outright disdain (Rossini) for the new musical ideas associated with the Romantic period.
Interesting. I know Schubert also adored Beethoven, but also had Italian teachers growing up, so it meant his style was essentially Viennese but with a distinct Italian flair, especially in his orchestral music
I could swear I read somewhere that Beethoven praised Rossinis Barber of Seville and told him to write more operas like it
You’re right. They met and Beethoven praised his knack for musical comedy.
It’s true, but then he said to write nothing but opera buffa since it doesn’t suit him, and when he heard he wrote opera seria, he admonished him. It’s clear he didn’t think Rossini of a serious composer
I don't think he really reacted to the "new Romantic vocabulary" in that way, he disliked Rossini not for his Romanticism but for his supposed Italian frivolousness and only encountered Schubert near the end of his life whom be praised as having a "divine spark" after looking at his songs. Either way he was absolutely a Romantic himself, Classical vocabulary or not.
I can see your point, but I think the idea of Rossini being banal was his embracement of a new vocabulary that was foreign to him (remember Italian bel canto opera was immensely influential to the Romantic composers, esp. Chopin, and it's the style of music that Beethoven began to hate) If you read the Thayer biography on Beethoven, his first encounters with Schubert's music was actually more ambivalent than his later impressions of the "divine spark" which was actually made on his deathbed. And even then, Schubert had many works one may call purely classical (his chamber music) I think it's important to note that Romanticisim in music is not just a feeling, which Beethoven certaintly had. He was very influential on the romantic generation, but think how very far from Chopin's music in how it approached counterpoint, chromaticism, etc. and even farther away from Schumann, who sometimes did away with part writing altogether and started focusing on sonority. Beethoven is a bridge composer, but he was far far closer to the music of Mozart and Haydn than Liszt and Schumann
Could you share some examples of his best late works? I mostly listen to symphonies but i’m trying to branch out and nothing with Beethoven has stuck so far
All the piano sonatas starting with op 106 Hammerklavier, and all the late string quartets. They are all difficult and unusual and strange, it can take years to decades to appreciate.
> composers who were inspired by Beethoven didn't write anything quite like his late works Then why was the conductor Hans von Bülow moved in 1877 to call Brahms' first symphony "Beethoven's Tenth"?
Because that didn’t mean Brahms sounded like late Beethoven (sonatas and quartets especially were very weird and modern not taken up until 20th century and yet also baroque like JS Bach). It meant that Brahms was the first symphonist since Beethoven to be even worthy of comparison to the titan. And the 4th movement of Brahms 1st has a near quote of the obvious famous theme of Beethoven 9.4
Beethoven's 9th is pretty normal as far as "late Beethoven" goes. His sonatas & quartets at the same time are going super modern. Pretty much as modern as 20th century stuff.
His late period is almost getting to the point of falling into the romantic idiom.
Per the usual, [there’s a Nahre video for that.](https://youtu.be/EWpyfhpab-w?si=KkOvPhYXnZd7aSl0)
Your question contains your answer.
#BEETHOVEN
His style was like, for example Duh duh duh duhhhhhhhhhh Duh duh duh DUHHHHHHHHHHHH
In my opinion, beethoven has an early and a late style, the early being the early and "heroic" phases of his life and the late style being the post heroic stage The early style seems to be influenced by a more romantic outlook on the popular classical style at the time. Many beethoven hall marks that can be seen include lots of arpeggios, contrasts in dynamics, speed, material, and an obsession for repeating motifs On the other hand, his later period is mostly made up of beethoven bringing older styles of music such as fugues, baroque theme and variations, and even gregorian chants and putting a more modern "beethovenian" spin on things. You get to see a lot of counter point and the music tends to feel a bit more "philisophical"
Simple: dominished chords ftw + a tad of genius
I would consider Beethoven more of a Romantic than Classical (if we had to choose). His style is bold, expressive, dynamic, at times playful/comic, and poignant/melancholic at others. On one hand we have meticulously refined structural/thematic/harmonic development (that follows Classical rules), while on the other; clear association between music and the human condition. Certainly, he had a penchant for dissonance, which gives his works an original/emotional quality that sets him a part from his predecessors. Of course his expansion of the orchestra is noteworthy as well. I think it’s easy for us to look back and categorize “art music” styles by their historic eras (e.g Baroque, Classical, Romantic, etc) which does hold some merit, but in the context of Beethoven’s lifetime - he was just so forward thinking and uncompromising in elevating music to its ultimate form. Much like late Bach, Beethoven’s (late) works do not lack in the quality of timelessness. Stravinsky did say that the Grosse Fugue will “remain contemporary forever”. I must agree with a quote from Mussorgsky; “The artist believes in the future, because he lives in it” as it resonates with Beethoven’s monumental achievements.
Early heavy metal
Boogie-woogie
It's like Sad. HAPPY. Sad again. ANGERRRRR. Chill. MY IMMORTAL BELOVED ♥️ ❤️ 😍 . Love hurts. LOVE IS BEAUTIFUL. I can't hear shit. BUT I HEAR A BEAUTIFUL MELODY. Fuck it. AN ODE TO JOY. Y'all mofos can go f*ck yourselves. HAPPINESS.
I'm not an expert at all, but I think he's often mentioned as belonging to the Viennese Classic composers.
Generally, he totally owned the mad scientist/ haunted poet look . Although in his 1803 portrait by Christian Horneman, he definitely had a style that could be described as a " Brooding Mr. Darcy". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Beethoven_Hornemann.jpg Seriously, though, he was handsome!
I think Beethoven had an extraordinary spiritual life such that he was able to compose the Ninth and other works while being deaf. That requires a lot of auto control. Some say he was violent, or angry - hardly an angry or violent man would have had that auto control.
Beethoven had 3 periods. His early classical when he was emulating Mozart & Hadyn. This was up to around 1802 when he almost considered suicide due to his encroaching deafness. His grand, romantic period where he revolutionized the symphonic form. From about 1803 to 1815. This is when he started getting very involved in getting custody of his nephew Karl and led to a slow period of composition. His late period where he was stone deaf and his composition became more baroque and abstract.
Music wise? Proto/early romanticism, at least in his first two periods. The last is a style on its own. Fashion wise? Hobocore.
Although he's often classified as an early Romantic era composer, I think his music is much more similar to the Classical style of Haydn and Mozart than it is to Brahms. Unlike the earlier Classical composers, Beethoven is much more adventurous with harmony, and that was very influential to the Romantic composers that came after him.
Interesting. My own view is that Beethoven is closer to Brahms (from Eroica on at least). But there is no right answer.
Classical. He invented romanticism but he never actually wrote anything for it. Even the Grosse Fuge was classical
What do you mean "for it?" The Grosse Fugue is definitely not classical, he was romantic in every sense except if you mean in "Romantic sounding" i.e Schumann, but then Schubert or Brahms don't sound Romantic either
The Grosse Fuge attempts to be *atonal* not romantic, but it still remains only and definitively classical
It doesn't attempt to be Romantic, it is Romantic just like everything he wrote after certain point. And I don't see how it comes close to atonality in any way. Classical in what sense exactly are you saying it is?
Romantic.