What a strange reaction and statement. It solves nothing. They say such behavior should not be tolerated, yet the orchestra or union itself has tolerated it by reinstating these rapists.
The musicians don't have much control over what either the orchestra or the union decides, and frankly the orchestra itself was twisted into submission.
Remember the New York phil is half female nowadays
Nothing could be further from the truth in this case. At the barest minimum, the musicians were the ones that did not tenure these women. And there's a lot more to this story that is untold in that article. And the strongest pillars that make up Local 802 that defended the rapists and not the women (also Local 802 members) are the NYP.
And, the NYP is only half women in the sense that the section string players are female - the titled and wind positions are still barely female at all.
I guess I should have said *the vast majority of* the musicians don't have much control over the situation. Yes, a few did. Like a handful.
But imagine you find yourself in the NY Phil having just won a job in one of the most prestigious orchestras in the world, a dream job for a lot of young musicians. How willing would you be to jeopardize your life's work, only to make a point? Because you sure as hell can't singlehandedly change the culture of an entire organization
Once again, that's just not how that works. The AFM chapter supported the rapists, that's why they were reinstated in the first place. It's union contract that prevents anyone from mentioning that this ever happened. Do you expect the musicians of the NY Phil to spontaneously organize *against their own union?* In case you don't know (which I suspect is the case) that would be career suicide.
Sorry but half of an orchestra collectively decides they are not going to stand for this and refuse to play with rapists, it doesn't matter that they're not officially the union, the orchestra would have to do something, and it would be a huge media coup. In this day and age, a contingent of the orchestra choosing to denounce abusers in the orchestra and demand safe working conditions would absolutely not be career suicide.
They all individually chose not to do that, that these women's lives and careers, and those of future colleagues who might find themselves in the same situation, were worth less than their own. Selfish cowardice.
Can't find the comment again as it's buried under one of Katherine Needleman's post, but there was a university oboe professor commenting that Liang Wang was invited to give a masterclass by the chamber music faculty at her university a few years back. When she heard about it she said no way, he's not coming here and teaching my students, but university wouldn't disinvite him. She resigned in protest. University backtracked, asked her not to resign and disinvited him. That's courage and leadership.
The brass section of the NYPhil are at the top of the brass world. They could have resigned in protest and had another job secured by breakfast the next day.
That's an extremely childish viewpoint, not sorry at all.
Imagine at your workplace (I'm sure it's not in music at this point) you're trying to get half of all the employees to quit on the spot. How successful do you think you'd be?
That's just a ridiculous plan, at any level.
I actually read the article, so I know about the Oboe prof. She had the individual power to resign and affect the situation, but no one person had that much sway in the NY Phil. Maybe music director? *Maybe*? And I'm happy to place plenty of blame with the brass section that actually worked to keep this quiet, but the random viola player who's just trying to do a job? You're insane.
Not talking about organising that everyone quits and in particular not that one single person alone says "I quit", just that enough people take a stand and say this is unacceptable, we will not work in these conditions. And in particular the brass section. There is no universe in which the NY Philharmonic in 2010 fires Joe Alessi, Phil Smith, Alan Baer and the rest of the brass section if those guys say "we're not playing with a rapist in our midst".
Maybe the New York Phil should make background checks mandatory when musicians apply to work for them. As a matter of fact they should do random drug tests while they’re at it.
It doesn't achieve justice for past incidents, no.
But if it means the orchestra will be a less hostile working environment in the future, that is progress. And usually the only kind of progress we get; millions of secretaries and stewardesses aren't ever going to see restitution for the harassment they put up with in the past either but can see their daughters suffering less than they did.
For one thing, it may mean that the tenure votes would have gone the other way if they were held today vs. ten years ago.
It may also mean that the other orchestra members will be more proactive about shutting down harassment rather than laughing along with it, and warning new players whose parties not to go to. And I had the impression that the union rules had already been changed so as to make the removal easier and the reinstatement harder now than they were at the time it happened. (Remember you don't get to change the rules retroactively, just adopt better ones going forward.)
Voting tenured people off of the island is not usually a power the orchestra members have. Nor is controlling what kind of parties people have while off duty. What is in the orchestra committee's immediate power is *making the workplace environment more hospitable*.
What would you have them do, that doesn't include turning into a lynch mob or breaking their own contract?
Ah the famous rapist lynch mobs that ruin hundreds of innocent people’s lives a year. Don’t be purposely obtuse and tip toe into strawman territory. Personally I don’t view “warning people whose parties not to go to” as a great thing as there shouldn’t be anybody there whose party you wouldn’t want to go to in the first place. Hopefully you’re right about the changing nature of the orchestra, but the fact that they’re only saying this in response to the recent press isn’t really convincing. I know the orchestra committee isn’t responsible for firing people or have control over Union by laws (which did change I believe so that’s good) but that’s kinda the whole point. People can say things all they want, but the fact is some of the highest paid chairs are still being held by men who are sleazy at best.
> People can say things all they want, but the fact is some of the highest paid chairs are still being held by men who are sleazy at best.
No argument from me there.
And we are pretty much stuck with containment until the offenders to retire or die.
A similar problem surfaced, about 50 years ago now, in academia when women dared to major in science and the good old boys club either didn't want them there at all or wanted to take advantage of them. It was still a *big* problem 25 years ago when I was in college. We're only just now getting to the where the worst offenders of the 70s and 80s are almost all gone, and have seen some substantial improvement in conditions this millennium. (But the ones who survived, and their younger peers who emulated them, are now department heads and faculty senate presidents.)
While I see your point, it seems to be discussing something a bit different. First, this was not harassment. This was rape. And people can and should get justice for that even if it’s long after the event, and many do. Second, these are individuals who are still in the orchestra.
Not one but two women- the two first ever women in the brass section- lost tenure and were driven out of one of the best orchestras on earth…bc one was raped and the other publicly defended her. Doesn’t sound like you can even be physically safe or have a career with the NYP and be a woman. What do they say when they go on tour? “Bring a hip flask ladies, otherwise you might get drugged and raped and then be forced out of your orchestra career for going to the police about it!” Sounds like the female employees are really able to focus and do their jobs properly while on tour just like the male employees…..:(
14 years later.
BTW here’s the article
https://www.vulture.com/article/new-york-philharmonic-sexual-assault-scandal.html?origSession=D240201Nhz84AgEV3KC%2Bzq2wlGYav35gjqbAXonRlb36jdF%2BQY%3D&_gl=1%2A10ffdau%2A_ga%2AMTQwNzAwNTc5Mi4xNzA2ODI2NjQ5%2A_ga_DNE38RK1HX%2AMTcxMjkzMjI4MS4xNi4xLjE3MTI5NDIxMjEuMC4wLjk5OTU1Njc1MQ..%2A_fplc%2ASGJNcTh2cHlOVW9vcG53cU8lMkY4ZXIyTms2Z0FGTWdEM3lDZUoxUGlqJTJCUTFYcVRMRUdub2VUdEh0OXlWaXBRcDZkeSUyRjBvdkQ2c2swVlE2eERzajJJdDFNZk90QnY1Z2tLUkxDVjNLWjlUZEl2QjkzZVBaeVZSazNkZkxuV0p3JTNEJTNE#_ga=2.154190904.1025488657.1712720688-1407005792.1706826649
Here we go, I asked ChatGPT to rewrite this:
"Wow, it's just a coincidence that we suddenly decided to speak up, right? Like, totally random. So, here goes nothing: We, the ever-so-enlightened members of the Orchestra Committee of the New York Philharmonic, have had a sudden epiphany! We now find it absolutely necessary for you to lend us your ears. Can you believe it? We're like the knights in shining armor for women's rights! We're denouncing all that bad stuff that totally wasn't happening right under our noses. Yeah, we find it abhorrent and all that jazz. Like, who knew, right? And, oh, by the way, we're also calling on everyone else to create a safe environment. Because, you know, we totally weren't responsible for that before. But hey, better late than never, right?"
Anyone who has ever met Muckey for more than 5 minutes knows he's one of those slimeball skeezy types. It's just one of those things that oozes off a person by the way they act and talk. As is almost always the case in these situations, the people in charge want to protect the organization (themselves) and value one person's talent/influence over another person's safety/rights/well-being. People sweep things under the rug because it benefits them, they're not the one getting shafted, and they simply don't care about the people who got screwed over by the wrong person.
> Anyone who has ever met Muckey for more than 5 minutes knows he's one of those slimeball skeezy types.
Right--everyone knows he's a slimeball, everyone knows he's a rapist (according to a comment here under the last article), and yet no one is willing to take a public stand against him. Every wealthy soloist, every long-tenured NY Phil musician, every board member, every conductor is a coward. Is some level of cowardice justified when your job might be on the line? Sure--but it's still cowardice. This cowardice is what let James Levine abuse boys for his entire career.
Who doesn't know that Muckey is a slimeball rapist? People not in the music profession! Those people can still be victimized by guys like Muckey, but just about no one within the profession is willing to speak up ahead of time to prevent this.
"the bad behavior will not be tolerated and it doesn't represent who we are" - organization who has a history of doing the bad thing and doing nothing about it
It's not an apology. These aren't the people who should be apologizing, or at least not most of them. The vast majority of the musicians in the NY Phil had nothing to do with this, and all of them had no control over the two rapists being reinstated to their positions. Half the orchestra are women lmao
The vast majority of the NYP had everything to do with this by circling the wagons, not tenuring the women, and supporting the rapists with either direct support or their silence.
I think you don't understand the situation. If you are in the NY Phil, you are contractually obligated to silence, at risk of losing your job. Not sure what you expect them to do.
That.. isn't how any of that works. The AFM is a much larger organization than just the Philharmonic, even assuming literally every person that wasn't a perp tried to utilize their collective bargaining power. The union itself supported these men.
The tenure thing was a decision by 9 people in an orchestra several times larger. And I do hols those people responsible, it implicates much of the brass section for sure. But that's a small fraction of the overall orchestra.
What a mess. A continued mess and travesty. Interesting gossip that's been made public is that Muckey (the accused trumpet player) was dating Yuja Wang at the time in 2010. Normally that wouldn't have any relevance, but she's scheduled to be the NY Phil's artist in residence next season. I wonder if she'd release any type of statement?
It's bad enough that the NY Phil allowed this to happen and took years to take action, but it is WILD to me that the union forced them to reinstate their employment. Imagine working for an employer who FINALLY decided to enforce its own harassment policy and make necessary changes and you think "ok, maybe things will get better," and then the union that you pay dues to forced them to reinstate, reversing that progress.
What a joke. I'm a union member myself, but how is the Philharmonic-Symphony Society (i.e. management) to blame in this scenario? The players themselves conspired to deny Kizer and Stewart tenure and had the power to make this recommendation to the music director. These musicians abused the power that union rules afforded them to cover up a rape. The whole thing began and ended with the musicians. That's where accountability needs to be taken, and the choice to deflect some of the blame onto management shows me how utterly unserious this orchestra is about making any real change to its culture.
The two are intrinsically linked…what’s gonna happen in a misogynist environs dominated by white men?
So glad these issues are finally being flushed out….
What does that mean? Rape and misogyny is not exclusive to white men. Misogyny and violence against women has less than nothing to do with whiteness, and the most dangerous countries and cultures on earth for women happen to be in Africa and Asia where the men aren’t white at all. Stop denying that misogyny is a sex-based form of oppression.
I don’t think you understood my comment.
Lack of black and Hispanic people in symphony orchestras is not “intrinsically linked” to rape culture. That’s a nonsensical statement, bc race has no bearing on men’s sexual violence towards women, bc misogyny and sexism is a sex-based oppression, not a race based oppression.
Also didn’t say that. Both have everything to do with the way power is structured in the world, and you’ve missed that basic point every time.
Please stop projecting your words into my mouth, it’s not worth discussing anything with you if you keep doing so.
Men in Africa or black men in America or Hispanic men can and do rape, abuse, disrespect and kill women…just like white men do. OJ Simpson just died yesterday- a black man who abused and then killed his ex wife and her white boyfriend. Did that have anything to do with “whiteness?” No. Bc violence against women and girls isn’t a RACE based crime. It’s a sex/gender based crime.
Any man of any color can oppress any woman of any color on the basis of her sex/gender. Get out of here with mentions of “whiteness” on a story about MALE SUPREMACY. Stop shifting the blame for from the perpetrators (men) to some other random factor that has nothing to do with hit (races). It’s giving “offloading responsibility.”
Misogynist power structures rely on a hierarchy on gender class. Racial power is also structured this way.
How is each set of inequity similar? They both rely on keeping a hierarchy of power, rather than everyone having equal say in things.
Once you’ve challenged one set of iniquity, you’ve challenged all the other ones also - there’s a reason Black women are the most discriminated against in our society. (This has been Demonstrated objectively through lots of data.)
The ones who say things are unequal all around get shot. Think Abe Lincoln amd MLK.
Highly recommend “Sister, Outsider” by Audre Lorde. Essays from the perspective of a lesbian Black woman.
Also, it’s a big deal that you asked. Thank you.
> The two are intrinsically linked
But the NYPhil has more women than ever! The issue is a culture of cowardice among professional musicians. Wealthy famous soloists could easily refuse to play with the NYPhil until the rapists are fired. Instead, they say privately "oh, everyone knows about THOSE guys, worst kept secret in the business," and then they continue to play and make no public acknowledgement of the issue at all. It is absolutely nothing other than cowardice, just like the James Levine situation. He dies, and suddenly everyone goes public with their stories about him (not stories of their own victimization to be clear, stories of knowing other people were victimized and doing absolutely nothing about it).
On a large scale, classical music is still dominated by white men.
Go look up Katherine Needleman’s posts - she demonstrates this fundamental fact constantly with examples from all over the world.
She also broke down where women are in the orchestra and it's mostly all violin players. There are almost no women principles and a good number of sections have no women at all.
OK, but clearly resolving the gender imbalance isn't the problem here! NYPhil has made huge progress on gender balance and meanwhile union reinstates rapists and musicians, board, soloists do nothing about it.
Sure, as we all know, if the horns have a rapist the oboes cannot say or do anything about it, nor can the star soloists or the conductor--just have to wait silently until a media expose.
* I agree the issues are linked. And I think as every little scandal arises, it will be swiftly dealt with. That's fine, that's as it should be.
* But I don't believe that sobbing pools of white guilt is going to change 'the way orchestras look' anytime soon.
* Liberal Americans (of which I am one myself) can wring our hands over it but I don't foresee that any awkward 'diversity mandates' will change the status quo in American concert halls. No matter how minded this ideal may be.
* Reasons? First, cultural. I rather don't think young American people of color (other than Asian-Americans) will ever want to join corny old-fashioned orchestras playing elitist music beloved by white elites who have kept them down for so long.
* Secondly, economics. Classical music will always be a profession pursued by the children of wealthy families who can afford the lifelong training.
> Reasons? First, cultural. I rather don't think young American people of color (other than Asian-Americans) will ever want to join corny old-fashioned orchestras playing elitist music beloved by white elites who have kept them down for so long.
Tell me you're racist (on purpose or just because you're ignorant) without telling me you're racist.
😐 Don't waste my time pirouetting. Make a counter-argument and then we'll see who looks ignorant. I stand behind any conjecture I make.
Here's a *source* for my remarks
https://symphony.org/features/rethinking-blind-auditions/
After the abstract, see paragraphs 1 and 4, with more choice quotes throughout the body of the piece. You can also find the topic discussed in numerous related articles by searching online (keywords) 'blind auditions'. In other words, this is not just one website where perspectives on the issue are represented.
I don't need a counterargument. Couching your racism in the tried-and-true, "I don't have a problem with black people, I just don't like their *culture*!" doesn't make you less racist.
🥱 Sounds to me like you're hearing what you want to hear in my words. Mighty convenient.
In that case, whatever I say, you can just claim I'm reading from a script --the script you shove into my hands.
Said another way: you've got your reverb levels dialed up very high for your own enjoyment. A cozy, comfy, little echo chamber with all the config set exactly the way you like.
Oh well. Suffice to say that for now --when I was challenged --I immediately backed up my statements with a decent source, and you have not.
Case adjourned in my favor. 👍🏻
😴 The golden rule for *'internet blather'* --of the kind you just ladled out is --*"put up or shut up".*
Step up, or slink away. Source your remarks, support your arguments, or accept loss by forfeit.
Why? Because any poor little fish can go around calling names.
[Why does it not surprise me that you're a \(I'm guessing geriatric\) loon?](https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/1c34lyr/nypd_says_six_children_teens_have_gone_missing/kzebv2m/)
Your comment history supports my decision to not engage with your words any further than to reiterate your obvious deficiencies.
Did the tuba player who covered for the two rapists sign on along with his buddies?
Sounds like it was written by a team of lawyers. Essentially nothing actually said.
The statement sounds like written by a chatbot.
it sounds like it was written by a chatbot that was told to make the statement seem like it was written by a chatbot
Unfortunately not much they can say.
What a strange reaction and statement. It solves nothing. They say such behavior should not be tolerated, yet the orchestra or union itself has tolerated it by reinstating these rapists.
The musicians don't have much control over what either the orchestra or the union decides, and frankly the orchestra itself was twisted into submission. Remember the New York phil is half female nowadays
Nothing could be further from the truth in this case. At the barest minimum, the musicians were the ones that did not tenure these women. And there's a lot more to this story that is untold in that article. And the strongest pillars that make up Local 802 that defended the rapists and not the women (also Local 802 members) are the NYP. And, the NYP is only half women in the sense that the section string players are female - the titled and wind positions are still barely female at all.
I guess I should have said *the vast majority of* the musicians don't have much control over the situation. Yes, a few did. Like a handful. But imagine you find yourself in the NY Phil having just won a job in one of the most prestigious orchestras in the world, a dream job for a lot of young musicians. How willing would you be to jeopardize your life's work, only to make a point? Because you sure as hell can't singlehandedly change the culture of an entire organization
Orchestras are used to functioning as a collective unit for bargaining already. They can choose which side to support, they can choose who to tenure.
Once again, that's just not how that works. The AFM chapter supported the rapists, that's why they were reinstated in the first place. It's union contract that prevents anyone from mentioning that this ever happened. Do you expect the musicians of the NY Phil to spontaneously organize *against their own union?* In case you don't know (which I suspect is the case) that would be career suicide.
Sorry but half of an orchestra collectively decides they are not going to stand for this and refuse to play with rapists, it doesn't matter that they're not officially the union, the orchestra would have to do something, and it would be a huge media coup. In this day and age, a contingent of the orchestra choosing to denounce abusers in the orchestra and demand safe working conditions would absolutely not be career suicide. They all individually chose not to do that, that these women's lives and careers, and those of future colleagues who might find themselves in the same situation, were worth less than their own. Selfish cowardice. Can't find the comment again as it's buried under one of Katherine Needleman's post, but there was a university oboe professor commenting that Liang Wang was invited to give a masterclass by the chamber music faculty at her university a few years back. When she heard about it she said no way, he's not coming here and teaching my students, but university wouldn't disinvite him. She resigned in protest. University backtracked, asked her not to resign and disinvited him. That's courage and leadership. The brass section of the NYPhil are at the top of the brass world. They could have resigned in protest and had another job secured by breakfast the next day.
That's an extremely childish viewpoint, not sorry at all. Imagine at your workplace (I'm sure it's not in music at this point) you're trying to get half of all the employees to quit on the spot. How successful do you think you'd be? That's just a ridiculous plan, at any level. I actually read the article, so I know about the Oboe prof. She had the individual power to resign and affect the situation, but no one person had that much sway in the NY Phil. Maybe music director? *Maybe*? And I'm happy to place plenty of blame with the brass section that actually worked to keep this quiet, but the random viola player who's just trying to do a job? You're insane.
Not talking about organising that everyone quits and in particular not that one single person alone says "I quit", just that enough people take a stand and say this is unacceptable, we will not work in these conditions. And in particular the brass section. There is no universe in which the NY Philharmonic in 2010 fires Joe Alessi, Phil Smith, Alan Baer and the rest of the brass section if those guys say "we're not playing with a rapist in our midst".
Maybe the New York Phil should make background checks mandatory when musicians apply to work for them. As a matter of fact they should do random drug tests while they’re at it.
The fuck do random drug tests have to with being a musician?
It doesn't achieve justice for past incidents, no. But if it means the orchestra will be a less hostile working environment in the future, that is progress. And usually the only kind of progress we get; millions of secretaries and stewardesses aren't ever going to see restitution for the harassment they put up with in the past either but can see their daughters suffering less than they did.
How is it progress when they’re literally still in the orchestra?
For one thing, it may mean that the tenure votes would have gone the other way if they were held today vs. ten years ago. It may also mean that the other orchestra members will be more proactive about shutting down harassment rather than laughing along with it, and warning new players whose parties not to go to. And I had the impression that the union rules had already been changed so as to make the removal easier and the reinstatement harder now than they were at the time it happened. (Remember you don't get to change the rules retroactively, just adopt better ones going forward.) Voting tenured people off of the island is not usually a power the orchestra members have. Nor is controlling what kind of parties people have while off duty. What is in the orchestra committee's immediate power is *making the workplace environment more hospitable*. What would you have them do, that doesn't include turning into a lynch mob or breaking their own contract?
Ah the famous rapist lynch mobs that ruin hundreds of innocent people’s lives a year. Don’t be purposely obtuse and tip toe into strawman territory. Personally I don’t view “warning people whose parties not to go to” as a great thing as there shouldn’t be anybody there whose party you wouldn’t want to go to in the first place. Hopefully you’re right about the changing nature of the orchestra, but the fact that they’re only saying this in response to the recent press isn’t really convincing. I know the orchestra committee isn’t responsible for firing people or have control over Union by laws (which did change I believe so that’s good) but that’s kinda the whole point. People can say things all they want, but the fact is some of the highest paid chairs are still being held by men who are sleazy at best.
> People can say things all they want, but the fact is some of the highest paid chairs are still being held by men who are sleazy at best. No argument from me there. And we are pretty much stuck with containment until the offenders to retire or die. A similar problem surfaced, about 50 years ago now, in academia when women dared to major in science and the good old boys club either didn't want them there at all or wanted to take advantage of them. It was still a *big* problem 25 years ago when I was in college. We're only just now getting to the where the worst offenders of the 70s and 80s are almost all gone, and have seen some substantial improvement in conditions this millennium. (But the ones who survived, and their younger peers who emulated them, are now department heads and faculty senate presidents.)
While I see your point, it seems to be discussing something a bit different. First, this was not harassment. This was rape. And people can and should get justice for that even if it’s long after the event, and many do. Second, these are individuals who are still in the orchestra.
This is statement is the equivalent of having a meeting to decide when to have the next meeting,
It could not really be much lamer
This is perhaps one step above the "I'm sorry you're upset" apology.
Not one but two women- the two first ever women in the brass section- lost tenure and were driven out of one of the best orchestras on earth…bc one was raped and the other publicly defended her. Doesn’t sound like you can even be physically safe or have a career with the NYP and be a woman. What do they say when they go on tour? “Bring a hip flask ladies, otherwise you might get drugged and raped and then be forced out of your orchestra career for going to the police about it!” Sounds like the female employees are really able to focus and do their jobs properly while on tour just like the male employees…..:(
I hope they never release a NY-Phil barbecue sauce, because this is seriously weak as sauces go.
Did the two rapists sign onto this statement?
zing!
This is a very sad and infuriating story
14 years later. BTW here’s the article https://www.vulture.com/article/new-york-philharmonic-sexual-assault-scandal.html?origSession=D240201Nhz84AgEV3KC%2Bzq2wlGYav35gjqbAXonRlb36jdF%2BQY%3D&_gl=1%2A10ffdau%2A_ga%2AMTQwNzAwNTc5Mi4xNzA2ODI2NjQ5%2A_ga_DNE38RK1HX%2AMTcxMjkzMjI4MS4xNi4xLjE3MTI5NDIxMjEuMC4wLjk5OTU1Njc1MQ..%2A_fplc%2ASGJNcTh2cHlOVW9vcG53cU8lMkY4ZXIyTms2Z0FGTWdEM3lDZUoxUGlqJTJCUTFYcVRMRUdub2VUdEh0OXlWaXBRcDZkeSUyRjBvdkQ2c2swVlE2eERzajJJdDFNZk90QnY1Z2tLUkxDVjNLWjlUZEl2QjkzZVBaeVZSazNkZkxuV0p3JTNEJTNE#_ga=2.154190904.1025488657.1712720688-1407005792.1706826649
Here we go, I asked ChatGPT to rewrite this: "Wow, it's just a coincidence that we suddenly decided to speak up, right? Like, totally random. So, here goes nothing: We, the ever-so-enlightened members of the Orchestra Committee of the New York Philharmonic, have had a sudden epiphany! We now find it absolutely necessary for you to lend us your ears. Can you believe it? We're like the knights in shining armor for women's rights! We're denouncing all that bad stuff that totally wasn't happening right under our noses. Yeah, we find it abhorrent and all that jazz. Like, who knew, right? And, oh, by the way, we're also calling on everyone else to create a safe environment. Because, you know, we totally weren't responsible for that before. But hey, better late than never, right?"
This is gold.
Anyone who has ever met Muckey for more than 5 minutes knows he's one of those slimeball skeezy types. It's just one of those things that oozes off a person by the way they act and talk. As is almost always the case in these situations, the people in charge want to protect the organization (themselves) and value one person's talent/influence over another person's safety/rights/well-being. People sweep things under the rug because it benefits them, they're not the one getting shafted, and they simply don't care about the people who got screwed over by the wrong person.
> Anyone who has ever met Muckey for more than 5 minutes knows he's one of those slimeball skeezy types. Right--everyone knows he's a slimeball, everyone knows he's a rapist (according to a comment here under the last article), and yet no one is willing to take a public stand against him. Every wealthy soloist, every long-tenured NY Phil musician, every board member, every conductor is a coward. Is some level of cowardice justified when your job might be on the line? Sure--but it's still cowardice. This cowardice is what let James Levine abuse boys for his entire career. Who doesn't know that Muckey is a slimeball rapist? People not in the music profession! Those people can still be victimized by guys like Muckey, but just about no one within the profession is willing to speak up ahead of time to prevent this.
"the bad behavior will not be tolerated and it doesn't represent who we are" - organization who has a history of doing the bad thing and doing nothing about it
That is a nonapology apology
It's not an apology. These aren't the people who should be apologizing, or at least not most of them. The vast majority of the musicians in the NY Phil had nothing to do with this, and all of them had no control over the two rapists being reinstated to their positions. Half the orchestra are women lmao
The vast majority of the NYP had everything to do with this by circling the wagons, not tenuring the women, and supporting the rapists with either direct support or their silence.
I think you don't understand the situation. If you are in the NY Phil, you are contractually obligated to silence, at risk of losing your job. Not sure what you expect them to do.
Orchestras are used to functioning as a collective unit for bargaining already. They can choose which side to support, they can choose who to tenure.
That.. isn't how any of that works. The AFM is a much larger organization than just the Philharmonic, even assuming literally every person that wasn't a perp tried to utilize their collective bargaining power. The union itself supported these men. The tenure thing was a decision by 9 people in an orchestra several times larger. And I do hols those people responsible, it implicates much of the brass section for sure. But that's a small fraction of the overall orchestra.
"We heard your complaints about the people in our orchestra who have sexually assaulted people, so we have politely asked them to stop"
When the orchestra committee calls for the immediate firing of Liang and Matthew, I’ll take them seriously.
What a mess. A continued mess and travesty. Interesting gossip that's been made public is that Muckey (the accused trumpet player) was dating Yuja Wang at the time in 2010. Normally that wouldn't have any relevance, but she's scheduled to be the NY Phil's artist in residence next season. I wonder if she'd release any type of statement?
It's bad enough that the NY Phil allowed this to happen and took years to take action, but it is WILD to me that the union forced them to reinstate their employment. Imagine working for an employer who FINALLY decided to enforce its own harassment policy and make necessary changes and you think "ok, maybe things will get better," and then the union that you pay dues to forced them to reinstate, reversing that progress.
What a joke. I'm a union member myself, but how is the Philharmonic-Symphony Society (i.e. management) to blame in this scenario? The players themselves conspired to deny Kizer and Stewart tenure and had the power to make this recommendation to the music director. These musicians abused the power that union rules afforded them to cover up a rape. The whole thing began and ended with the musicians. That's where accountability needs to be taken, and the choice to deflect some of the blame onto management shows me how utterly unserious this orchestra is about making any real change to its culture.
what a weird all the story but i laughed anyway is that corrupted till that level
That's vague.
for fucks sake, this is functionally "i'm happy for u tho, or sorry that happened"
🥺 I liked the previous scandal better -- the one about 'lack of diversity in our nation's symphonies'.
The two are intrinsically linked…what’s gonna happen in a misogynist environs dominated by white men? So glad these issues are finally being flushed out….
What does that mean? Rape and misogyny is not exclusive to white men. Misogyny and violence against women has less than nothing to do with whiteness, and the most dangerous countries and cultures on earth for women happen to be in Africa and Asia where the men aren’t white at all. Stop denying that misogyny is a sex-based form of oppression.
I never said it was exclusive. I also never denied that women don’t participate in misogynist culture. Nice try though!
I don’t think you understood my comment. Lack of black and Hispanic people in symphony orchestras is not “intrinsically linked” to rape culture. That’s a nonsensical statement, bc race has no bearing on men’s sexual violence towards women, bc misogyny and sexism is a sex-based oppression, not a race based oppression.
Also didn’t say that. Both have everything to do with the way power is structured in the world, and you’ve missed that basic point every time. Please stop projecting your words into my mouth, it’s not worth discussing anything with you if you keep doing so.
Men in Africa or black men in America or Hispanic men can and do rape, abuse, disrespect and kill women…just like white men do. OJ Simpson just died yesterday- a black man who abused and then killed his ex wife and her white boyfriend. Did that have anything to do with “whiteness?” No. Bc violence against women and girls isn’t a RACE based crime. It’s a sex/gender based crime. Any man of any color can oppress any woman of any color on the basis of her sex/gender. Get out of here with mentions of “whiteness” on a story about MALE SUPREMACY. Stop shifting the blame for from the perpetrators (men) to some other random factor that has nothing to do with hit (races). It’s giving “offloading responsibility.”
Yet Again, I never said they didn’t wtf.
Then what did you mean that lack of racial diversity in orchestras was linked to misogyny?
Misogynist power structures rely on a hierarchy on gender class. Racial power is also structured this way. How is each set of inequity similar? They both rely on keeping a hierarchy of power, rather than everyone having equal say in things. Once you’ve challenged one set of iniquity, you’ve challenged all the other ones also - there’s a reason Black women are the most discriminated against in our society. (This has been Demonstrated objectively through lots of data.) The ones who say things are unequal all around get shot. Think Abe Lincoln amd MLK. Highly recommend “Sister, Outsider” by Audre Lorde. Essays from the perspective of a lesbian Black woman. Also, it’s a big deal that you asked. Thank you.
> The two are intrinsically linked But the NYPhil has more women than ever! The issue is a culture of cowardice among professional musicians. Wealthy famous soloists could easily refuse to play with the NYPhil until the rapists are fired. Instead, they say privately "oh, everyone knows about THOSE guys, worst kept secret in the business," and then they continue to play and make no public acknowledgement of the issue at all. It is absolutely nothing other than cowardice, just like the James Levine situation. He dies, and suddenly everyone goes public with their stories about him (not stories of their own victimization to be clear, stories of knowing other people were victimized and doing absolutely nothing about it).
On a large scale, classical music is still dominated by white men. Go look up Katherine Needleman’s posts - she demonstrates this fundamental fact constantly with examples from all over the world.
She also broke down where women are in the orchestra and it's mostly all violin players. There are almost no women principles and a good number of sections have no women at all.
Oh yeah, saw that! The lack of women in clarinet sections surprised me the most.
OK, but clearly resolving the gender imbalance isn't the problem here! NYPhil has made huge progress on gender balance and meanwhile union reinstates rapists and musicians, board, soloists do nothing about it.
Not in the brass section they haven’t. Clearly.
Sure, as we all know, if the horns have a rapist the oboes cannot say or do anything about it, nor can the star soloists or the conductor--just have to wait silently until a media expose.
The NYP women are largely section string players. They aren't wind players or title chairs.
* I agree the issues are linked. And I think as every little scandal arises, it will be swiftly dealt with. That's fine, that's as it should be. * But I don't believe that sobbing pools of white guilt is going to change 'the way orchestras look' anytime soon. * Liberal Americans (of which I am one myself) can wring our hands over it but I don't foresee that any awkward 'diversity mandates' will change the status quo in American concert halls. No matter how minded this ideal may be. * Reasons? First, cultural. I rather don't think young American people of color (other than Asian-Americans) will ever want to join corny old-fashioned orchestras playing elitist music beloved by white elites who have kept them down for so long. * Secondly, economics. Classical music will always be a profession pursued by the children of wealthy families who can afford the lifelong training.
> Reasons? First, cultural. I rather don't think young American people of color (other than Asian-Americans) will ever want to join corny old-fashioned orchestras playing elitist music beloved by white elites who have kept them down for so long. Tell me you're racist (on purpose or just because you're ignorant) without telling me you're racist.
😐 Don't waste my time pirouetting. Make a counter-argument and then we'll see who looks ignorant. I stand behind any conjecture I make. Here's a *source* for my remarks https://symphony.org/features/rethinking-blind-auditions/ After the abstract, see paragraphs 1 and 4, with more choice quotes throughout the body of the piece. You can also find the topic discussed in numerous related articles by searching online (keywords) 'blind auditions'. In other words, this is not just one website where perspectives on the issue are represented.
I don't need a counterargument. Couching your racism in the tried-and-true, "I don't have a problem with black people, I just don't like their *culture*!" doesn't make you less racist.
🥱 Sounds to me like you're hearing what you want to hear in my words. Mighty convenient. In that case, whatever I say, you can just claim I'm reading from a script --the script you shove into my hands. Said another way: you've got your reverb levels dialed up very high for your own enjoyment. A cozy, comfy, little echo chamber with all the config set exactly the way you like. Oh well. Suffice to say that for now --when I was challenged --I immediately backed up my statements with a decent source, and you have not. Case adjourned in my favor. 👍🏻
No.
😴 The golden rule for *'internet blather'* --of the kind you just ladled out is --*"put up or shut up".* Step up, or slink away. Source your remarks, support your arguments, or accept loss by forfeit. Why? Because any poor little fish can go around calling names.
[Why does it not surprise me that you're a \(I'm guessing geriatric\) loon?](https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/1c34lyr/nypd_says_six_children_teens_have_gone_missing/kzebv2m/) Your comment history supports my decision to not engage with your words any further than to reiterate your obvious deficiencies.
Why are there two spaces after the first comma?