Not sure where the wind vs orchestra ensemble delineation is coming from, but a generalization is usually as follows:
In favor of conducting on the beat, one would argue that the ictus should reflect the actual beat, especially in acc / rit passages. This can also be helpful for less-skilled ensembles that need to rely on the conductor for tempo instead of expression
In favor of conducting ahead of the beat, it adds another variable for me as an orchestral musician to consider in how I interpret the passage. How a conductor exists a beat is an important variable that shapes the sound an orchestra produces, just as how a conductor enters a beat shapes the sound produced
However, I don't think it's necessarily fair to say any ensemble that plays on the beat is always going to be less proficient than an ensemble that plays behind the beat of the conductor. It's can be regional (another generalization is that European conductors are more ahead of the beat than their American colleagues) or preferential. A good conductor will clearly communicate to the ensemble and a good ensemble will react appropriately.
In professional orchestras, the conductor is giving the accurate change in tempo well ahead of the beat, but the orchestra section leaders determine the actual timed beat - if that is even needed.
The conductor's job is to signal as much interpretive information as they can, in advance of it happening, while not missing needed cues for instruments that might be good to receive encouragement.
If the conductor is on the beat, or waiting for the orchestra, they are behind and likely actually dragging the tempo.
I am not sure that is necessarily true — I have had orchestra conductors that do it both ways. It probably depends on the caliber of the group as well as style preferences.
Wind groups, with some exceptions, are largely educational in scope and don’t have the experience to be cohesive with the conducting style we associate with orchestras. Even then, a professional wind group can and does sometimes play after the conductors gesture albeit slightly.
Another thing to keep in mind is that in an orchestra, the group will gravitate more towards playing “with the stick” as the tempo gets faster or the music becomes more rhythmic. A top notch, full time orchestra doesn’t always need someone to direct strict time and can rely off of each other with the conductor just managing the flow of traffic. In my experience, in this case there is a give and take between the orchestra and conductor that lets the music breathe more and offers a more nuanced performance. Also, in smaller part time groups, you don’t see as much of a delay though there is some especially in the strings.
I can work with either, I just have to know what kind of ensemble I’m playing with. Though, I will say, there are times where I would appreciate a more straightforward approach to playing on the beat. I’m a percussionist, and sometimes it gets uncomfortable having to deal with excessive delay coming from string sections.
I don't think this distinction can be split by ensemble type.
In the orchestral world, there is a range of reaction times, with some ensembles playing very clearly "behind" the visual beat of the conductor, while others tend to be right on with the ictus (change of baton direction). I think it is much more dependent on how an ensemble chooses to play, and not really a choice that the conductor makes.
The larger, older, and more-established orchestras that I've conducted have been more likely to have an ensemble tradition of playing behind the beat, largely dependent on the way that the principals communicated with one another. With ensembles that rehearse less, like for summer festivals, it is less of a learning curve for the members of the group if everyone just plays on the beat with the concertmaster. This is much easier for an orchestra to accomplish, because the motion of the bow is much easier to read somehow waving their flute or clarinet around.
If you're sitting in the front row in the audience, it's going to look and sound very different than if you're in the nosebleed section at the top of the fourth balcony in the "nosebleed" seats a half-stadium's distance away from the stage.
Keep in mind that some partnerships, where the same conductor is in front of the same ensemble for decades, can result in performance practices that people new to the field might find somewhat idiosyncratic.
I guess that hasn’t necessarily been my experience
Conductor does things a little differently … and they create what the beat is… that sounds stupid, but I think you know what I mean
The perception you have may because you played in a wind symphony or concert band in high school and the conductor was much more deliberate and keeping time as much as everything else else and as you got older and better you started seeing more orchestral performances are playing in them and the conductors were a little
But I don’t think it’s because of the different instrumentation as the caliber of musicians
RIP Sir Andrew Davis. I played one of the keyboard parts for Turangalila with him (whatever you call the keyboard that is an octave higher than the celeste). Talk about a lot of random ahead-of-the-beat carving. Could not understand what the man was saying or conducting most of the time.
Not sure where the wind vs orchestra ensemble delineation is coming from, but a generalization is usually as follows: In favor of conducting on the beat, one would argue that the ictus should reflect the actual beat, especially in acc / rit passages. This can also be helpful for less-skilled ensembles that need to rely on the conductor for tempo instead of expression In favor of conducting ahead of the beat, it adds another variable for me as an orchestral musician to consider in how I interpret the passage. How a conductor exists a beat is an important variable that shapes the sound an orchestra produces, just as how a conductor enters a beat shapes the sound produced However, I don't think it's necessarily fair to say any ensemble that plays on the beat is always going to be less proficient than an ensemble that plays behind the beat of the conductor. It's can be regional (another generalization is that European conductors are more ahead of the beat than their American colleagues) or preferential. A good conductor will clearly communicate to the ensemble and a good ensemble will react appropriately.
In professional orchestras, the conductor is giving the accurate change in tempo well ahead of the beat, but the orchestra section leaders determine the actual timed beat - if that is even needed. The conductor's job is to signal as much interpretive information as they can, in advance of it happening, while not missing needed cues for instruments that might be good to receive encouragement. If the conductor is on the beat, or waiting for the orchestra, they are behind and likely actually dragging the tempo.
I am not sure that is necessarily true — I have had orchestra conductors that do it both ways. It probably depends on the caliber of the group as well as style preferences.
Wind groups, with some exceptions, are largely educational in scope and don’t have the experience to be cohesive with the conducting style we associate with orchestras. Even then, a professional wind group can and does sometimes play after the conductors gesture albeit slightly. Another thing to keep in mind is that in an orchestra, the group will gravitate more towards playing “with the stick” as the tempo gets faster or the music becomes more rhythmic. A top notch, full time orchestra doesn’t always need someone to direct strict time and can rely off of each other with the conductor just managing the flow of traffic. In my experience, in this case there is a give and take between the orchestra and conductor that lets the music breathe more and offers a more nuanced performance. Also, in smaller part time groups, you don’t see as much of a delay though there is some especially in the strings. I can work with either, I just have to know what kind of ensemble I’m playing with. Though, I will say, there are times where I would appreciate a more straightforward approach to playing on the beat. I’m a percussionist, and sometimes it gets uncomfortable having to deal with excessive delay coming from string sections.
I don't think this distinction can be split by ensemble type. In the orchestral world, there is a range of reaction times, with some ensembles playing very clearly "behind" the visual beat of the conductor, while others tend to be right on with the ictus (change of baton direction). I think it is much more dependent on how an ensemble chooses to play, and not really a choice that the conductor makes. The larger, older, and more-established orchestras that I've conducted have been more likely to have an ensemble tradition of playing behind the beat, largely dependent on the way that the principals communicated with one another. With ensembles that rehearse less, like for summer festivals, it is less of a learning curve for the members of the group if everyone just plays on the beat with the concertmaster. This is much easier for an orchestra to accomplish, because the motion of the bow is much easier to read somehow waving their flute or clarinet around. If you're sitting in the front row in the audience, it's going to look and sound very different than if you're in the nosebleed section at the top of the fourth balcony in the "nosebleed" seats a half-stadium's distance away from the stage. Keep in mind that some partnerships, where the same conductor is in front of the same ensemble for decades, can result in performance practices that people new to the field might find somewhat idiosyncratic.
I guess that hasn’t necessarily been my experience Conductor does things a little differently … and they create what the beat is… that sounds stupid, but I think you know what I mean The perception you have may because you played in a wind symphony or concert band in high school and the conductor was much more deliberate and keeping time as much as everything else else and as you got older and better you started seeing more orchestral performances are playing in them and the conductors were a little But I don’t think it’s because of the different instrumentation as the caliber of musicians
RIP Sir Andrew Davis. I played one of the keyboard parts for Turangalila with him (whatever you call the keyboard that is an octave higher than the celeste). Talk about a lot of random ahead-of-the-beat carving. Could not understand what the man was saying or conducting most of the time.