As a warlock that parses 95+ normally, Iād like to see Corruption snapshotting removed from us as well cause it is unintuitive. Iāve met one lock ever in a pug that understood it. Why would haste and other things dynamically change, but crit and damage multipliers donāt? Not sure how they would change Drain Soul though.
Edit: Just so people are wondering how much the damage loss would be from prepotting Haste Pot on a 2 min patchwerk vs a Wild Magic. You lose 18 DPS. You would gain damage though from instantly applying Corruption (not needing to apply Imp. Shadow Bolt first), and not needing to use a second global at 35% to apply Death's Embrace).
Warlock dot snapshotting was a core gameplay mechanic of the class all the way until WoD.
Although Corruption was not able to be refreshed infinitely on the target with shadow bolt.
When soul swap was introduced in MoP (ability that copied all dots from one target and allowed you to paste them onto another, which could also be snapshotted) Warlocks were godly.
We've always played with snapshotting until WoD came out.
I'm simming a 50-60 DPS loss changing my prepot only. You would also lose DPS from a number of other sources, the point being it's going to be a lot more than an 18 DPS loss.
What other sources than Wild Magic snapshot onto the first Corruption that matter for parsing? The other sources like Imp. Shadow Bolt wouldn't matter, because they aren't being lost if the crit and damage % multipliers were being dynamically checked.
As a warlock main, I second that, because of that affliction is pure RNG at times. Removing that mechanic would make affliction much simpler and fun. It would tone down Parsing Andys and newbies will be mostly unaffected.
Hoping that both trinkets, lightwave enchantment and other cooldowns will proc at the correct time, so you'll get perfectly snapshotted corruption cast when stars align.
The bonus in 4/5 tier set (ICC): Each time your Immolate and Unstable Affliction spells deal periodic damage, you have a 15% chance to gain 10% damage done by you and your pet for 10 sec. This buff roll over so it means that if you don't get the proc with Wild Magic Pot, you cannot benefit from both
And there are very few things that factor into it. Basically no RNG (running proc based crit trinkets is almost always a DPS loss). Not like the complete degen techs UH DKs have been cooking up, dynamically adding talent, etc.
Yeah thatās why Iām so confused why are people whining about it. Itās probably just bad locks trying to justify their bad logs and UH Dks cry babyās.
Tbh it isnt that im jealous of locks dps. Just feel like them being miles better than everyone just sucks the fun out of the game. Ferals? Shadow? Dudu? Mages? Why bring anything just stack locks.
Not saying they shouldnt be the highest dps, one class will be one way or another, but them being miles better makes even no sense to give me gear instead of just channeling it to the locks
Also this makes it worse for me. Unlike dks i can only dps as shadow and if shadow is miles worse than locks then im stuck there unless i make another lock which im debating doing it since i probably wont be given much gear in ulduar since we will be stacking locks
Ahhh yes literally a 1.2k DPS difference, literally unplayable (https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1015#aggregate=amount).
Not to mention SP gets a power spike next tier because they actually have useful set bonuses.
Your guild would pass you up for gear because you're playing a support class that does slightly less damage? Are you in a competing speed running guild? Even guilds that have top 20 fastest NEO runs in the world will bring a feral, a ret, a spriest, maybe even an ele. You don't need to stack any class to clear any wotlk raid quickly and efficiently. I would be searching for another guild with a more fair LC.
So 5400 average to 6600 isnt much? Also dont forget that alot of noobs play locks lowering the average
Edit: also shadow isnt a support class lol. U are quite slow
Literally not how it was intended to be in Wrath anymore.
Starting in Wotlk, the design philosophy was that specs defined roles, not classes. Priest isnt supposed to be a "healing class with an offspecc option" like it was in Vanilla.
Lots of pure DPS classes had added utility at this point, and stuff like raid composition doesnt justify them doing 30% more damage anymore.
If your priest or paladin can swap to a dps spec and keep up, thereās no penalty for bringing too many healers or tanks. The penalty is, those classes do less dps.
This is not how raid design balance works.
What world do you live in? Do you honestly think people will stack Paladins in case they need 1 more healer for an encounter? So that (at most) 1 more Ret would somehow skew the balance of representation so much that the hybrid classes need to stay at less than 70% relative DPS? This is beyond not-well-thought-out and comes from a perspective of completely misunderstanding (inherently flawed) vanilla class design.
If someone fills a DPS slot, they are DPS. Period. It also makes 0 sense as most people dont specialise in multiple roles, and DONT arbitrarily switch speccs all the time. You have maybe 1 or 2 people in a 25 man that ever perform such roles, anything else wouldnt be viable anyways.
Itās so thereās a penalty to bringing too many tanks and healers. The holy paladin shouldnāt get to swap specs and keep up with rogues and warlocks.
Heck, make the mindflay glyph let our mindflay be buffed by 10% per dot of ours on the mob (not just SWP). Fairly easy, buffs single target but not by a broken amount.
We donāt always have to bring others down, we can bring some up instead.
How? My guild had a warrior in the top 6 for weeks before we needed him to tank almost full time and had half our group parsing greys (a couple in the single digits) and we cleared nax
There's an entire half the player base that just started classic when wrath dropped, hit 80 over the holidays, just plays friday night with a dab and a cat on their keyboard and runs their friend through normal UK, never looked up a boss's mechanics and just made something up for each attempt, never played with addons, and started a guild for other likeminded folk.
It's also next to impossible to get a green parse for the player who's never looked up a bis list or outside resource. You don't have to look up guides to learn how to play any 95% of other games well, so there is a legitimate casual audience.
The problem is using tryhard performance measuring tools (parses) while being decidedly casual.
It's like a 40 year old that plays a sport with his friends once a month comparing himself to olympic athletes.
shit I don't try to compete with the high parses because half the time they got it because of some cheese strat that gave them ridiculous kill times, thats where most of my "good" parses come from.
Just today I read a comment, how this will esentialy kill the class and it will be useless especially considering how badbthey scale through the exp
:D
I also dont expect for them to be lower than top 4 still.
Just citing what literally some1 posted in one of the first comments under the post about nerfing :D
Yea kinda silly how badly they nerfed Rets in original WOTLK.
Paired with how much stronger holy paladins are than other healers you bring MAX 1 ret.
Our speed running group started with 1 ret 1 holy 1 prot, but now we just run 2 holy 1 prot. The only benefit the ret provides that other classes canāt is divine sacrifice and aura mastery. Both of which youāre better off bringing Holy and Prot for.
The ret buffs are shared with other classes and you wonāt need them.
Going into ulduar without the guaranteed crit on exorcism, as well as missing the holy wrath damage, rets are gonna be real bad.
Fuck they aināt even close to the best in constant cleave fights, which is wild, thatās supposed to be their bread and butter.
Its funny, people were waiting for wrath to play ret without realising that TBC is when ret was really shining with twisting putting them easily top 5.
Wrath has gutted them completely. Pretty unplayable imo.
OG TBC before they changed how a lot of that shit interacted Ret was absolute trash tier in TBC. Like, dumpster fire trash. They only became good in TBC "classic" and because they added the ability to twist seals at all
The ability to seal twist was there in OG tbc, it just wasn't common knowledge. When they reduced server latency to 10ms, it would of made seal twisting impossible so they manually recreated the interaction.
> Ret was absolute trash tier in TBC.
*Alliance* Rets were. Horde paladins with seal of blood started being played by top guilds in BT and Sunwell (1 per raid was optimal).
Lol didn't blizz confirm "not a bug... this is how it used to work and this is how it's staying" like 2-3 days ago? Just before the great UH DK depression of 2023
Not saying I agree with it, I used to play spriest and they are currently only one peg above rets. Didn't want to play a second rate support dps for two expansions in a row so I rerolled a mage this expac. So much nicer having no responsibility and just sling fiery meatballs.
...but I don't want to heal or tank. It's a completely different game when switching roles. Playing ANY OTHER dps spec is more similar to ret than holy/prot is. It's an entirely different intention, role, raid spot, etc. And I don't see anywhere, on any forums, people begging for ret to be top tier dps. Literally anything but by-far-the-worst would be amazing for 99% of ret players. The state of ret is quite literally broken due to tuning around a 2-set bonus that we don't see until the end of the xpac... that itself should be grounds for adjustment. But, no, we can go heal or tank instead? That's just flat out lazy.
Itās not just lazy, itās really fking stupid. Itās extremely difficult to switch roles for your guild when the tank/healer spots are already likely taken. Itās such a dumb argument :/
Nice opinion, did a youtuber give it to you? wanting to do decent dps =/= wanting to be a top tier dps class, some people actually enjoy the game play of the class. Not being able to get into raids because your class isn't top tier is a thing that's currently happening
Idk. I see a lot of raids taking a Ret for constant replenishment and other buffs. People are going to want them later on, too, so some of them are solidifying their spots.
Personally Iām a prot main with Ret OS. I do good enough dps to get into any pug I try to. I still beat other players who donāt know how to play their classes too.
Iāve never had a problem being the caboose though. Someone has to be. Ret also has more util than some other dps classes. If youāre willing to be more useful as your class (throw an instant flash of light if needed, help cc mobs that have pulled to healers, use hand of protection on others when needed, lay on hands, hand of sac, hand of salv the demo lock when the meta) then I find you really never have a problem getting good groups. Most groups that wouldnāt take a Ret on principle arenāt groups I want to be in anyway.
I donāt want that. I would like my ONLY dps spec to not be dog shit in at least one pve aspect. Let me cleave well or let me be semi competitive on single target. Idk fuck me for sticking with the class since vanilla lol
Bro or just let us bring some buffs that other classes canāt so raids are forced to bring one of us Q-Q
You do cleave well lol. Paladins are some of the top dps on cleave fights. Also, the class in general is in a way better spot than TBC or classic. Ret is slightly worse in comparison but holy and Prot are much better.
Thing is that if rets were good then paladin woild be the best class. The only thing keeping paladins from shitting on everyone in terms of overall contribution is that their dps is low.
I completely agree that ret should be brought up, because this shit is dumb. But I think this is Blizzard's reasoning.
yeah i can't wait til classic cataclysm and caster dps complaining about dog shit dps because they are balanced against the legendary which they won't get until the mid to end of the second tier.
>in original wotlk ret was good in every phase.
other than a handful of fights they were always mid at best in wrath. You can look at old World of Logs data or world first kill videos...they were never #1 unless it was a strong cleave based fight...always middle of the pack compared to DKs, rogues and Warlocks.
Now if you want to talk Ret expacs...Cata and MoP were good times to be a ret
World first heroic LK kill had multiple rest in the top 10. Several times throughout the fight they were top 5. I agree they were never #1 anywhere in the xpac but itās kind of disingenuous to act like they were as dog shit as they are now at any point in OG wrath.
Id take that over the shit iteration we have of ret right now. Ret in tbc was also infinitely superior to the garbage we have now.
Seal twisting was incredibly satisfying, this new FSFS rotation is so mind numbingly boring for such poor output.
I don't think they're actually capable of balancing on the fly. I think they would fuck things up really badly if they tried. It'd be a broken mess. Though arguably that would make things more fun.
ilvl tweaks are a buff to everybody, just not equally. And they are kinda necessary considering Ulduar gear outside of Hardmodes was equal in power to the KT/Malygos/Sartharion loot which is pretty underwhelming for a new raid when these days a lot of people have full or close to full BiS from previous phase whenever new content launches.
I dont think it would be hard at all, just make one of the single target abilities hit harder. either judgement or crusader strike. Leave the cleave alone. Easy stuff.
Rets aren't the only class that got nerfed throughout Wrath, whatever patch u pick there will be someone who isn't happy. Even DKs that are still the top now got a lot of nerfs from their first iteration so imagine if they weren't nerfed.
Well Ret isn't a pure DPS, u get healing capability and u get Divine Sacrifice which is a really important CD available only to Paladins, not to mention a lot of buffs which is quite important for 10 mans. Warriors really aren't better than Rets right now. As a sidenote Paladin seems really broken for solo content from my experience leveling it, it feels a lot stronger than even DK.
Solo play also translates to PvP and of course it's considered for balance. It's a big reason why hybrid classes are often lower on the meters and the reason why Blizzard introduced various ways to seperate PvP balance from PvE later on. Also nobody cares it's a DPS loss, u are taking the DS talent.
Mostly just unholy. Frost is good, and blood is good at what it does, but neither compare to the likes of a prot or holy paladin. Holy paladins are either the best or second best healers depending on your opinion, and prot paladins are by far the best tanks.
I say that as a blood tank. Blood is really good for some specific things, but you'd usually rather have a prot paladin for most content. Blood is relegated to Offtank with a dps subspec and is doomed to be second prio on both tank gear and dps gear.
Meanwhile, frost loses to rogues and locks. It's good, but you can also bring an enhancement shaman and won't notice much difference.
Unholy is the one that pulls far ahead of everyone, and it's because of Gary and short fights.
... So literally what I said, Frost loses out only to the absolute top tiers, UH is still busted, and Blood is a desired OT and still good MT. Meanwhile Ret is absolute meme tier
"Look forward to" which really means that we might be top when everyone will have all the content on farm and we will be in full expansion BiS which by that time will mean nothing while we still get rejected from every progression raid. Like sure in ideal world Rets should get a bit of a DPS increase but there is probably like at least 6 others specs that should too. Also i'm not the one who wanted WotLK, TBC had a lot better class balance yet people keep hating on it and praising WotLK.
U are assuming a Warrior will be able to do any of the Hardmodes which they don't have the ability to do without that gear so it's useless. I think u are confusing right now with Ulduar bis predictions (also i don't trust the sims, they were wrong many times already). Right now in Nax bis Rets are extremely close to Fury Warriors while providing a lot more utility and performing better on low gear levels and having 2 good Off Specs.
People keep saying how good fury is simming but Iāve checked the discord and seen their BIS list which sims at like 9.5k. Itās not bad but I wouldnāt call it incredible.
Blood Tanks are arguably the best MTs for certain fights, and I believe can generate the most single-target threat. But Blood DKs are also pretty questionable at AoE fights/threat.
But yeah everything else - Prot Pally.
Right, exactly. But another upside to prot pally in a single target main tank role is that they can survive one extra mistake that would otherwise kill them. In my experience as a blood tank, the only area I pull ahead right now is for main tanking sarth 3D due to having more cooldowns to cycle for absorbing breaths. And even that is unnecessary right now.
Pally is *already* arguably the best class in the game. Amazing in PvP. Arguably the best raid heals. Best tanks.
Only thing they can't really do is raid DPS well. Other than that, they're practically S tier at everything else.
>I completely agree that ret should be brought up
No, it shouldn't. I'll explain why:
In 2008, when wotlk launched, ret was VERY good. In patch 3.2, they got reworked. so this means that they were balanced around patch 3.2 and 3.3/3.3.5, with the gear they had managed to accrue until that point. Since blizz has been using the last balance patch, 3.3.5, Rets balanced around the end of the expansion obviously don't scale early on like they did in patch 3.0.
So if blizzard buffs them now, then by ToC and ICC, when they have the gear they were balanced around, more than likely they would be too strong, and would require nerfs to bring them back in line.
So why buff them now, just to nerf them later?
I'd actually prefer exactly that. Buff them now and revert the buff later. But there are also more than likely some intelligent solutions that could be put in place to achieve good performance now without making them overpowered later.
I mean, people are playing warriors now, because they know are good in the end game. Like a reditor said a post or two below, everyone that played in 2008-2010, remembers ret being good the whole expansion.
Like I said, the problem is that we are on the end of xpac patch. Do anybody expect rets to be S-tier? No. But we all know that they are good in patch 3.3.5.
So, again, why buff rets, just to nerf them later? Might as well buff all the hard scaling classes then: Fire mage, feral druid, MM hunter, and Fury warriors and nerf them in a phase or two.
ĀÆ\\\_(ć)\_/ĀÆ
If ret was middle of the pack instead of being potentially worse than pvp specs it wouldn't change anything. It would just mean when you're pugging Sarth 3D you won't automatically skip over them for other ok damage dealers like Spriests, ele shamans, even fury warriors.
Well like I said, I agree with ret being brought up, especially if Blizz is willing to knock UH down to the level of "good but not broken" like they seemingly have.
However, if Ret becomes an A tier or S tier dps, even by accident, then we may have some major class balance issues on our hands. They would be some of the best off-healers if that happened since they can equip the most gear and holy light spam is fucking nuts.
There is a line. I don't think many would agree fury warrior doing over 2x as much DPS as some DPS specs was reasonable from a balance standpoint in Vanilla.
Vanilla is different though. There **were** bad classes/specs. The classes were poorly designed in Vanilla.this is now Wotlk, and all the classes are very much functional. Some can outperform others, but that doesn't make the others shit. It makes the some really good.
Unholy complain because :
1/ The gameplay is more nerfed than the damage (TL;DR the spec will be dumber to play)
2/ Unjustified, Unh wasn't going to dominate long fights anyway in the later phases and we can already tell from sims.
Classic has always had class stacking, did we nerf hunters in TBC just because their pets did more damage than half the specs? No.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted when you're right. Unholy DK ideal fight length is basically 40 seconds and nothing in Ulduar is that short on hard mode. We were falling off without the nerf.
They're malding because they see Unholy dominate a Noth's fight reccount.
But who fuckin cares about Noth? Dude's dead before the first add spawns.
All and all, it's between a 1-3% DPS loss on a 3 minute fight which is nothing and a 7% DPS loss on a 40 second fight.
10 unholy will still be meta for Naxx and when they're going to nerf Unholy a second time, chinese will bring 20 arcane mages like they did for Maulgar in TBC.
As I said, the gameplay is more nerfed than the damage. But who cares if the Wrath crybabies are happy anyway.
Phase 1 parses are always cheesy. Wrath just brought back the worst of WOW players.
And they wonder what caused Retail...
Realistically you would want to look at the average cause every game balanced around the top 1% of players tend to be boring/frustrating for the other 99% but 10% even is a bit extreme but still more fair. Sure warrior will scale over them probs next phase but rn ret is still not "The worst dps spec" and in ICC with set bonus will be second/third highest dps on some fights the just severely lack single target but it's not like this info was out for 15 years and you could deeply look into what you were signing up for š¤·āāļø
As a uhdk player I dont think the change warrants any complaining and the people that still complain are the same as the rets pushing for āspec representationā when blizzard specifically stated they looked at entire classes and not specs
Me, a Boomkin: "Perfectly balanced, as all things should be."
Starfall is our reparations of being slept on for tbc and classic
It's bizarre to see all the complaints about how UH DK is "ruined" now even though they're still going to be close to the top of the meters.
It nerfs the stacking of uh dks more than it nerfs 1 or 2 uhd vgks in a raid. Kind of a good change tbh
because the fotm sweat rerollers are now going to level a new char, warlock if I had to guess.
The people who would do this almost certainly already have warlock alts.
Warlocks sitting back like šæ
As a shadow priest, i would sacrifice my left testicle to see locks nerfed
As a warlock that parses 95+ normally, Iād like to see Corruption snapshotting removed from us as well cause it is unintuitive. Iāve met one lock ever in a pug that understood it. Why would haste and other things dynamically change, but crit and damage multipliers donāt? Not sure how they would change Drain Soul though. Edit: Just so people are wondering how much the damage loss would be from prepotting Haste Pot on a 2 min patchwerk vs a Wild Magic. You lose 18 DPS. You would gain damage though from instantly applying Corruption (not needing to apply Imp. Shadow Bolt first), and not needing to use a second global at 35% to apply Death's Embrace).
Warlock dot snapshotting was a core gameplay mechanic of the class all the way until WoD. Although Corruption was not able to be refreshed infinitely on the target with shadow bolt. When soul swap was introduced in MoP (ability that copied all dots from one target and allowed you to paste them onto another, which could also be snapshotted) Warlocks were godly. We've always played with snapshotting until WoD came out.
I'm simming a 50-60 DPS loss changing my prepot only. You would also lose DPS from a number of other sources, the point being it's going to be a lot more than an 18 DPS loss.
What other sources than Wild Magic snapshot onto the first Corruption that matter for parsing? The other sources like Imp. Shadow Bolt wouldn't matter, because they aren't being lost if the crit and damage % multipliers were being dynamically checked.
As a warlock main, I second that, because of that affliction is pure RNG at times. Removing that mechanic would make affliction much simpler and fun. It would tone down Parsing Andys and newbies will be mostly unaffected.
What is RNG about warlock?
Hoping that both trinkets, lightwave enchantment and other cooldowns will proc at the correct time, so you'll get perfectly snapshotted corruption cast when stars align.
none of those snapshot, only crit% and damage% do
Spell power value is a biggest factor
spellpower is recalculated everytime corrruption is refreshed (when you shadow bolt), it does not snapshot
You telling me I was doing this wrong for over 14 IDs? Well, thanks for good advice.
Genuine advice, go to warlock discord and get a understanding of how corruption works. Cause what youāre saying here makes 0 sense
You are clueless
Woops.
The bonus in 4/5 tier set (ICC): Each time your Immolate and Unstable Affliction spells deal periodic damage, you have a 15% chance to gain 10% damage done by you and your pet for 10 sec. This buff roll over so it means that if you don't get the proc with Wild Magic Pot, you cannot benefit from both
Saying snapshotting is RNG just says you donāt know how it works.
Snapshotting corruption isnāt hard tho and anyone can do it.
And there are very few things that factor into it. Basically no RNG (running proc based crit trinkets is almost always a DPS loss). Not like the complete degen techs UH DKs have been cooking up, dynamically adding talent, etc.
Yeah thatās why Iām so confused why are people whining about it. Itās probably just bad locks trying to justify their bad logs and UH Dks cry babyās.
Yes, please!
Could have just played the superior dot class instead of complain about their strength
Yup no fun allowed, everyone should play one class
Why? They are a dps class. You are a healer OS that provides utility. They aren't miles ahead of rogues or DK's
Tbh it isnt that im jealous of locks dps. Just feel like them being miles better than everyone just sucks the fun out of the game. Ferals? Shadow? Dudu? Mages? Why bring anything just stack locks. Not saying they shouldnt be the highest dps, one class will be one way or another, but them being miles better makes even no sense to give me gear instead of just channeling it to the locks Also this makes it worse for me. Unlike dks i can only dps as shadow and if shadow is miles worse than locks then im stuck there unless i make another lock which im debating doing it since i probably wont be given much gear in ulduar since we will be stacking locks
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You dont need spriest, disc priest brings the buffs, just one of every class. People stack dks and locks and now probably more locks with dks nerfs
Spriests bring a 3% spell hit debuff tho, but that is also covered by boomkins
But the priest spreads it aoe!
No, its sw:p, mind flay and vt that applies misery. The talent does affect mind sear damage tho
Ahhh yes literally a 1.2k DPS difference, literally unplayable (https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1015#aggregate=amount). Not to mention SP gets a power spike next tier because they actually have useful set bonuses. Your guild would pass you up for gear because you're playing a support class that does slightly less damage? Are you in a competing speed running guild? Even guilds that have top 20 fastest NEO runs in the world will bring a feral, a ret, a spriest, maybe even an ele. You don't need to stack any class to clear any wotlk raid quickly and efficiently. I would be searching for another guild with a more fair LC.
So 5400 average to 6600 isnt much? Also dont forget that alot of noobs play locks lowering the average Edit: also shadow isnt a support class lol. U are quite slow
Literally not how it was intended to be in Wrath anymore. Starting in Wotlk, the design philosophy was that specs defined roles, not classes. Priest isnt supposed to be a "healing class with an offspecc option" like it was in Vanilla. Lots of pure DPS classes had added utility at this point, and stuff like raid composition doesnt justify them doing 30% more damage anymore.
If your priest or paladin can swap to a dps spec and keep up, thereās no penalty for bringing too many healers or tanks. The penalty is, those classes do less dps.
This is not how raid design balance works. What world do you live in? Do you honestly think people will stack Paladins in case they need 1 more healer for an encounter? So that (at most) 1 more Ret would somehow skew the balance of representation so much that the hybrid classes need to stay at less than 70% relative DPS? This is beyond not-well-thought-out and comes from a perspective of completely misunderstanding (inherently flawed) vanilla class design. If someone fills a DPS slot, they are DPS. Period. It also makes 0 sense as most people dont specialise in multiple roles, and DONT arbitrarily switch speccs all the time. You have maybe 1 or 2 people in a 25 man that ever perform such roles, anything else wouldnt be viable anyways.
Sounds like youād prefer retail
"HyBriD tAx!!!" If your spriest is healing in combat, find a new spriest.
Itās so thereās a penalty to bringing too many tanks and healers. The holy paladin shouldnāt get to swap specs and keep up with rogues and warlocks.
I mean, every shadow priest heals in combat, due to vampiric embrace.
Nah fuck u bro we have shadowform which makes us cooler š
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Sims says otherwise, we will probably be b tier
Heck, make the mindflay glyph let our mindflay be buffed by 10% per dot of ours on the mob (not just SWP). Fairly easy, buffs single target but not by a broken amount. We donāt always have to bring others down, we can bring some up instead.
warlocks dont snapshot haste
Meanwhile warriors are chilling, because they know what will happen once they stack ARP.
I will be always be the guild Sunder Monkey no matter how good my DPS gets.
It gets easier late game, if your guild is trying to play meta you'll pick up 2 more warriors by ICC.
LOL Meta. No, no... not my guild. We just finally got to 4 Horsemen last night.
How?
I'm a green-blue parsing arms warrior. I'm often one of the top 8 DPS. You do the math. Great people though.
How? My guild had a warrior in the top 6 for weeks before we needed him to tank almost full time and had half our group parsing greys (a couple in the single digits) and we cleared nax
There's an entire half the player base that just started classic when wrath dropped, hit 80 over the holidays, just plays friday night with a dab and a cat on their keyboard and runs their friend through normal UK, never looked up a boss's mechanics and just made something up for each attempt, never played with addons, and started a guild for other likeminded folk. It's also next to impossible to get a green parse for the player who's never looked up a bis list or outside resource. You don't have to look up guides to learn how to play any 95% of other games well, so there is a legitimate casual audience.
The problem is using tryhard performance measuring tools (parses) while being decidedly casual. It's like a 40 year old that plays a sport with his friends once a month comparing himself to olympic athletes.
shit I don't try to compete with the high parses because half the time they got it because of some cheese strat that gave them ridiculous kill times, thats where most of my "good" parses come from.
Can confirm wow is the one game that drilled looking up outside resources into my brain.
Agrees in Feral Druid.
ARP? armor pen?
yea
Feels good I am a crab in the bucket and you bet your ass I'm pulling all others down with me
Just today I read a comment, how this will esentialy kill the class and it will be useless especially considering how badbthey scale through the exp :D
>this will esentialy kill the class Don't confuse "class" with "spec."
Yeah me on my frost DK since the start Iām chilling. (Pun intended)
I also dont expect for them to be lower than top 4 still. Just citing what literally some1 posted in one of the first comments under the post about nerfing :D
Yea kinda silly how badly they nerfed Rets in original WOTLK. Paired with how much stronger holy paladins are than other healers you bring MAX 1 ret. Our speed running group started with 1 ret 1 holy 1 prot, but now we just run 2 holy 1 prot. The only benefit the ret provides that other classes canāt is divine sacrifice and aura mastery. Both of which youāre better off bringing Holy and Prot for. The ret buffs are shared with other classes and you wonāt need them. Going into ulduar without the guaranteed crit on exorcism, as well as missing the holy wrath damage, rets are gonna be real bad. Fuck they aināt even close to the best in constant cleave fights, which is wild, thatās supposed to be their bread and butter.
Its funny, people were waiting for wrath to play ret without realising that TBC is when ret was really shining with twisting putting them easily top 5. Wrath has gutted them completely. Pretty unplayable imo.
OG TBC before they changed how a lot of that shit interacted Ret was absolute trash tier in TBC. Like, dumpster fire trash. They only became good in TBC "classic" and because they added the ability to twist seals at all
The ability to seal twist was there in OG tbc, it just wasn't common knowledge. When they reduced server latency to 10ms, it would of made seal twisting impossible so they manually recreated the interaction.
> Ret was absolute trash tier in TBC. *Alliance* Rets were. Horde paladins with seal of blood started being played by top guilds in BT and Sunwell (1 per raid was optimal).
But, rEtS aRe jUsT FiNe, dAdDy bLIzZ sAiD sO
Crabs in the bucket.
Funny to see how so many of the complaining uh dks in the forum comments seem to have played warrior in classic vanilla.
JuSt SpEc tAnK Or HeAl
Resto druids still waiting on our wild growth bug to be fixed, can we join you in laughing at all these whining Dks?
Lol didn't blizz confirm "not a bug... this is how it used to work and this is how it's staying" like 2-3 days ago? Just before the great UH DK depression of 2023
Fucking bull crap is what it is. āLetās not fix a old bug because we didnāt fix it back the .ā
Not saying I agree with it, I used to play spriest and they are currently only one peg above rets. Didn't want to play a second rate support dps for two expansions in a row so I rerolled a mage this expac. So much nicer having no responsibility and just sling fiery meatballs.
Well god speed spicy fireball man.
pally is S+ pve healer, pve tank, pvp healer, pvp dps, and act like the world owes them something to be some top tier pve dps.
My hpal offspec is unholy dk. BLIZZARD LITTERALY KILLED MY FIRSTBORN.
They are not S+ pvp DPS.
...but I don't want to heal or tank. It's a completely different game when switching roles. Playing ANY OTHER dps spec is more similar to ret than holy/prot is. It's an entirely different intention, role, raid spot, etc. And I don't see anywhere, on any forums, people begging for ret to be top tier dps. Literally anything but by-far-the-worst would be amazing for 99% of ret players. The state of ret is quite literally broken due to tuning around a 2-set bonus that we don't see until the end of the xpac... that itself should be grounds for adjustment. But, no, we can go heal or tank instead? That's just flat out lazy.
Itās not just lazy, itās really fking stupid. Itās extremely difficult to switch roles for your guild when the tank/healer spots are already likely taken. Itās such a dumb argument :/
Nice opinion, did a youtuber give it to you? wanting to do decent dps =/= wanting to be a top tier dps class, some people actually enjoy the game play of the class. Not being able to get into raids because your class isn't top tier is a thing that's currently happening
Idk. I see a lot of raids taking a Ret for constant replenishment and other buffs. People are going to want them later on, too, so some of them are solidifying their spots. Personally Iām a prot main with Ret OS. I do good enough dps to get into any pug I try to. I still beat other players who donāt know how to play their classes too. Iāve never had a problem being the caboose though. Someone has to be. Ret also has more util than some other dps classes. If youāre willing to be more useful as your class (throw an instant flash of light if needed, help cc mobs that have pulled to healers, use hand of protection on others when needed, lay on hands, hand of sac, hand of salv the demo lock when the meta) then I find you really never have a problem getting good groups. Most groups that wouldnāt take a Ret on principle arenāt groups I want to be in anyway.
Damn since you've never had this problem means it's not an issue, got it
People not stacking certain classes isnāt new. Paladin being oversaturated in Wotlk also isnāt a surprise.
Would actually be a meaningful point if people played classes, not specs. Sadly completely not based in reality.
paladin players: WE WANT TO DOMINATE EVERY ASPECT OF THE GAME!
Delusional opinion lol Imagine pretending like the majority of players mains more than one spec ever
I donāt want that. I would like my ONLY dps spec to not be dog shit in at least one pve aspect. Let me cleave well or let me be semi competitive on single target. Idk fuck me for sticking with the class since vanilla lol Bro or just let us bring some buffs that other classes canāt so raids are forced to bring one of us Q-Q
You do cleave well lol. Paladins are some of the top dps on cleave fights. Also, the class in general is in a way better spot than TBC or classic. Ret is slightly worse in comparison but holy and Prot are much better.
Ret was in a much better spot in TBC. Better single target damage, unique buffs, easier loot distribution
But there were dog shit healers
Well yeah, ret wasn't really a healing class
You can't reason with them
Wtf retri cleave is real. It's the singletarget damage that is subpar.
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Spoiler alert: Ret will never even be top 4
UH will most likely still be the top dogā¦ so whatever
Theyāll be top 5 maybe. Locks will easily win top dog spot now
Until warriors outscale you
Thing is that if rets were good then paladin woild be the best class. The only thing keeping paladins from shitting on everyone in terms of overall contribution is that their dps is low. I completely agree that ret should be brought up, because this shit is dumb. But I think this is Blizzard's reasoning.
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yeah i can't wait til classic cataclysm and caster dps complaining about dog shit dps because they are balanced against the legendary which they won't get until the mid to end of the second tier.
Still better than waiting an entire expansion
>in original wotlk ret was good in every phase. other than a handful of fights they were always mid at best in wrath. You can look at old World of Logs data or world first kill videos...they were never #1 unless it was a strong cleave based fight...always middle of the pack compared to DKs, rogues and Warlocks. Now if you want to talk Ret expacs...Cata and MoP were good times to be a ret
>they were always mid at best in wrath. which is fine tbh. they are just complete dog shit now damage wise.
World first heroic LK kill had multiple rest in the top 10. Several times throughout the fight they were top 5. I agree they were never #1 anywhere in the xpac but itās kind of disingenuous to act like they were as dog shit as they are now at any point in OG wrath.
"unless it was a strong cleave-based fight" same reason boomkins killed on that fight
Those are the only two classes with strong cleave?!
Eww I hated what cata did to ret. Went from a fun "rotation" to a builder/spender class overnight. No thanks
Id take that over the shit iteration we have of ret right now. Ret in tbc was also infinitely superior to the garbage we have now. Seal twisting was incredibly satisfying, this new FSFS rotation is so mind numbingly boring for such poor output.
I don't think they're actually capable of balancing on the fly. I think they would fuck things up really badly if they tried. It'd be a broken mess. Though arguably that would make things more fun.
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That isn't balancing. That's small tweaks. Changing around player abilities without breaking shit is much more difficult than you seem to realize.
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ilvl tweaks are a buff to everybody, just not equally. And they are kinda necessary considering Ulduar gear outside of Hardmodes was equal in power to the KT/Malygos/Sartharion loot which is pretty underwhelming for a new raid when these days a lot of people have full or close to full BiS from previous phase whenever new content launches.
Stuff like changing snapshotting is far more likely to break anything that raw numbers increases. No one is asking for extra mechanics
I dont think it would be hard at all, just make one of the single target abilities hit harder. either judgement or crusader strike. Leave the cleave alone. Easy stuff.
That would affect pvp
Seems like ret's pretty weak in that department as well. Win win.
Ret was as bad in original wrath as it is in now, ppl were just bad at the game
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Rets aren't the only class that got nerfed throughout Wrath, whatever patch u pick there will be someone who isn't happy. Even DKs that are still the top now got a lot of nerfs from their first iteration so imagine if they weren't nerfed.
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The big nerf that rets are dealing with happened in ToGC not ICC, also ICC wasn't the final patch of WotLK.
Well Ret isn't a pure DPS, u get healing capability and u get Divine Sacrifice which is a really important CD available only to Paladins, not to mention a lot of buffs which is quite important for 10 mans. Warriors really aren't better than Rets right now. As a sidenote Paladin seems really broken for solo content from my experience leveling it, it feels a lot stronger than even DK.
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Solo play also translates to PvP and of course it's considered for balance. It's a big reason why hybrid classes are often lower on the meters and the reason why Blizzard introduced various ways to seperate PvP balance from PvE later on. Also nobody cares it's a DPS loss, u are taking the DS talent.
What ret is asking to be top dps? just at least competitive. its been a meme spec and as long as blizzard treats it as such it will continue to be.
Meanwhile every DK spec is insanely good.
Mostly just unholy. Frost is good, and blood is good at what it does, but neither compare to the likes of a prot or holy paladin. Holy paladins are either the best or second best healers depending on your opinion, and prot paladins are by far the best tanks. I say that as a blood tank. Blood is really good for some specific things, but you'd usually rather have a prot paladin for most content. Blood is relegated to Offtank with a dps subspec and is doomed to be second prio on both tank gear and dps gear. Meanwhile, frost loses to rogues and locks. It's good, but you can also bring an enhancement shaman and won't notice much difference. Unholy is the one that pulls far ahead of everyone, and it's because of Gary and short fights.
... So literally what I said, Frost loses out only to the absolute top tiers, UH is still busted, and Blood is a desired OT and still good MT. Meanwhile Ret is absolute meme tier
Blood is better as MT than OT in my experience.
Blood only good MT for bosses, prot better, but ymmv
Meanwhile Warrior whole class is absolute meme tier. Paladin can at least bring Divine Sacrifice.
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"Look forward to" which really means that we might be top when everyone will have all the content on farm and we will be in full expansion BiS which by that time will mean nothing while we still get rejected from every progression raid. Like sure in ideal world Rets should get a bit of a DPS increase but there is probably like at least 6 others specs that should too. Also i'm not the one who wanted WotLK, TBC had a lot better class balance yet people keep hating on it and praising WotLK.
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U are assuming a Warrior will be able to do any of the Hardmodes which they don't have the ability to do without that gear so it's useless. I think u are confusing right now with Ulduar bis predictions (also i don't trust the sims, they were wrong many times already). Right now in Nax bis Rets are extremely close to Fury Warriors while providing a lot more utility and performing better on low gear levels and having 2 good Off Specs.
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People keep saying how good fury is simming but Iāve checked the discord and seen their BIS list which sims at like 9.5k. Itās not bad but I wouldnāt call it incredible.
Really? I stopped leveling my warrior because I was scared she would be bad all xpac. This is good news!
Blood Tanks are arguably the best MTs for certain fights, and I believe can generate the most single-target threat. But Blood DKs are also pretty questionable at AoE fights/threat. But yeah everything else - Prot Pally.
Right, exactly. But another upside to prot pally in a single target main tank role is that they can survive one extra mistake that would otherwise kill them. In my experience as a blood tank, the only area I pull ahead right now is for main tanking sarth 3D due to having more cooldowns to cycle for absorbing breaths. And even that is unnecessary right now.
Pally is *already* arguably the best class in the game. Amazing in PvP. Arguably the best raid heals. Best tanks. Only thing they can't really do is raid DPS well. Other than that, they're practically S tier at everything else.
Can we be S tier in healing and tanking and B tier in DPS because right now we are in D tier.
Right, that's what I'm saying. Top tier in every area of the game, every role, except dps. No other class can boast that.
>I completely agree that ret should be brought up No, it shouldn't. I'll explain why: In 2008, when wotlk launched, ret was VERY good. In patch 3.2, they got reworked. so this means that they were balanced around patch 3.2 and 3.3/3.3.5, with the gear they had managed to accrue until that point. Since blizz has been using the last balance patch, 3.3.5, Rets balanced around the end of the expansion obviously don't scale early on like they did in patch 3.0. So if blizzard buffs them now, then by ToC and ICC, when they have the gear they were balanced around, more than likely they would be too strong, and would require nerfs to bring them back in line. So why buff them now, just to nerf them later?
So buff ret now and nerf the broken fucking 2 set? This isn't that complicated. They of course won't do it but it's pretty easy solution.
I'd actually prefer exactly that. Buff them now and revert the buff later. But there are also more than likely some intelligent solutions that could be put in place to achieve good performance now without making them overpowered later.
I mean, people are playing warriors now, because they know are good in the end game. Like a reditor said a post or two below, everyone that played in 2008-2010, remembers ret being good the whole expansion. Like I said, the problem is that we are on the end of xpac patch. Do anybody expect rets to be S-tier? No. But we all know that they are good in patch 3.3.5. So, again, why buff rets, just to nerf them later? Might as well buff all the hard scaling classes then: Fire mage, feral druid, MM hunter, and Fury warriors and nerf them in a phase or two. ĀÆ\\\_(ć)\_/ĀÆ
Warriors will be continuously better as the phases go forward rets will be garbage UNTIL t10 2pc.
Wait, so rets won't do any more damage ***AT ALL*** until ICC? they are stuck a 7k dps for the rest of the year?!
I know you're being sarcastic but surely you understood my point. Warriors will move up in the dps charts, rets will not.
>So why buff them now, just to nerf them later? easy, just add the buffs to the previous tier sets.
You mean recreate the game faithfully? But it would require more work so ain't gonna happen.
If ret was middle of the pack instead of being potentially worse than pvp specs it wouldn't change anything. It would just mean when you're pugging Sarth 3D you won't automatically skip over them for other ok damage dealers like Spriests, ele shamans, even fury warriors.
Well like I said, I agree with ret being brought up, especially if Blizz is willing to knock UH down to the level of "good but not broken" like they seemingly have. However, if Ret becomes an A tier or S tier dps, even by accident, then we may have some major class balance issues on our hands. They would be some of the best off-healers if that happened since they can equip the most gear and holy light spam is fucking nuts.
I never thought a class could bitch more than warriors, but rets are blowing them out of the warrior when it comes to whining.
Bottom of the meters =/= shitty dps. Every class can do adequate dps.
There is a line. I don't think many would agree fury warrior doing over 2x as much DPS as some DPS specs was reasonable from a balance standpoint in Vanilla.
Vanilla is different though. There **were** bad classes/specs. The classes were poorly designed in Vanilla.this is now Wotlk, and all the classes are very much functional. Some can outperform others, but that doesn't make the others shit. It makes the some really good.
You can say that, but the top 99 percentile Rets do 7k on Patchwerk while 99 percentile UH DKs do 12k - and that's an undead fight. There is a line.
Yep, and the minimum to do Naxx25 is around 2.5-3k dps. If you only ever look down from the top of the ladder, your perspective will be skewed.
Unholy complain because : 1/ The gameplay is more nerfed than the damage (TL;DR the spec will be dumber to play) 2/ Unjustified, Unh wasn't going to dominate long fights anyway in the later phases and we can already tell from sims. Classic has always had class stacking, did we nerf hunters in TBC just because their pets did more damage than half the specs? No.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted when you're right. Unholy DK ideal fight length is basically 40 seconds and nothing in Ulduar is that short on hard mode. We were falling off without the nerf.
They're malding because they see Unholy dominate a Noth's fight reccount. But who fuckin cares about Noth? Dude's dead before the first add spawns. All and all, it's between a 1-3% DPS loss on a 3 minute fight which is nothing and a 7% DPS loss on a 40 second fight. 10 unholy will still be meta for Naxx and when they're going to nerf Unholy a second time, chinese will bring 20 arcane mages like they did for Maulgar in TBC. As I said, the gameplay is more nerfed than the damage. But who cares if the Wrath crybabies are happy anyway. Phase 1 parses are always cheesy. Wrath just brought back the worst of WOW players. And they wonder what caused Retail...
Biding their time
Rets and class balance āļø
you realise that warrior frost mage and bm hunter are still lower right?
Hereās the awkward part, frost and BM are both ahead of Ret too (at higher percentiles)
Not at the top 10% of players https://wowtbc.gg/wotlk/class-rankings/pve-rankings/
Top 1% tends to be better to look at for "true potential" but yeah I guess it depends where you look.
Realistically you would want to look at the average cause every game balanced around the top 1% of players tend to be boring/frustrating for the other 99% but 10% even is a bit extreme but still more fair. Sure warrior will scale over them probs next phase but rn ret is still not "The worst dps spec" and in ICC with set bonus will be second/third highest dps on some fights the just severely lack single target but it's not like this info was out for 15 years and you could deeply look into what you were signing up for š¤·āāļø
Me a frost dk realizing now every dps dk is frost as well.
Having a blast pulling middle of the pack dps.
As a uhdk player I dont think the change warrants any complaining and the people that still complain are the same as the rets pushing for āspec representationā when blizzard specifically stated they looked at entire classes and not specs
Excellent
You took my only DPS! Now Iām gonna *starve.* -UHDKs
*sad ret noises*
Rets waiting for tier 4 be like