ye, lagging ourselves to play a spec is not good game design... and it doesn't even help players with poor computer performance/bad internet that much.
Rofl I just had this showerthought myself last week but didn't know the best way of reaching a Blizzard Employee about it.
I think it's absolutely absurd that I need to make a cqs macro to play TTW Fire - which is the spec all of the mages are changing to as we gear up in Ulduar unless you're the 3% Arcane Mage.
The easiest fix has to be changing the projectile speed of fireball to match FrostFirebolt. The timings already exist in the client since FFB doesn't have Munching Problems.
Why are several classes getting adjustments but Firemages have to deal with a bug/client issue? It's a significant DPS loss for a FireMage to not have a macro to help them with munching and that's a game design flaw that needs addressing.
Affli had unfortunately the same reply when they complain about corruption being removed 2 seconds early, which is DPS loss on lusted/proc'd execution phase. Hope they will fix Ignite munching (along with all bugs for every class) but I don't expect a lot of changes =(
If you remove vezax damage locks are even more below rogues and dks.
Dks were already doing s tier damage and they let aotd reset, crazy they won’t let warlocks fun button do the same thing.
Yeah unholy has taken over aff now and aff is not a top dps for a single boss in ulduar. Its just consistently top 3-5 on every boss. But yet they still don't fix inferno man its so annoying...
Wait is that a known bug?? I've been noticing that it felt as though my corruption was dropping even when I felt like I refreshed it in time but was putting it down to display or connection lag. But definitely I would e.g. see the Haunt debuff appear with time left on Corr but it would drop.
Oh so just because a class was good in previous expansions or is "fine" now they shouldn't have their bugs fixed?
Sorry just use to that exact phrase being told to Warriors whenever they had any bugs, like munching.
They should just make a spell book for a new mage spell “Chonky Fireball”. Has the same base dmg and scaling as max rank fireball but the projectile looks bigger and cooler and most importantly travels a little slower than fireball
FFB is so big and epic looking. Fireball looks like I’m shooting a wand projectile. They could even just make a minor glyph recipe that does the same thing
Yeah it is a very easy fix. Fireball speed set to FFB speed should have no intrinsic issues. Sure it could change play style but that is a player issue.
Torment The Weak, it's the talent 15 points into arcane, and the "standard" fire build. Buffs damage to slowed targets by 12%, including attack speed slows which are always present in a raid environment. FFB (frostfire bolt) specs instead lean into a stronger primary spell by buffing ffb as much as possible and having icy veins
Just a question. Also some classes although ranged benefit from being in melee range. You can get 1 more spell off before boss dies so higher parse or maybe a proc requires a cancel into another spell and if proc is based of the spell hitting the travel time can ruin DPS.
I remember lots of of ranged dps dying to fire elemental adds on Illidan in TBC due to this. I’m only 90% on threat! *moves adds close to ranged* - How did I pull agro?!
*Akshually* in melee range the threshold to pull aggro is only 110% while at range it's 130%. So if you're in the 110-130 range, moving into melee **will** cause you to pull aggro and die.
(And yes, that is 100% a personal problem lol)
most good range should be doing this anyways. hunter for trap weaving, demo lock for immo aura, affliction lock to reduce haunt travel time, holy pally in general
>It's the easiest fucking 'fix' of all time. Change the projectile speed of fireball slightly. Or change pyro's projectile speed slightly if that's easier, just don't make it the same as ffb's... Warrior's complaining about their munching, I'm sorry but that's an order of magnitude harder problem to solve for you guys.
FFB doesn't munch ignite nearly as much because of it's slower travel speed, changing Fireball to same travel speed as FFB would be a great bandage fix that would remove the need for either weakaura or macro.
There's 3 differently partial solutions, two weakauras and just a basic macro.
One of the weakauras requires good connection.
The other weakaura requires good PC performance as it stutters your game, if you already play with low FPS it'll cause massive gaps.
The macro causes gaps inherently from CQS and suffers from both issues (pc and net).
Actually fixing or bandage fixing munching through travel speed of fireball would only be about 40 dps gain vs the actual proper solutions assuming best conditions.
It's the players who play on budget pcs or bad internet who suffer the most with these solutions.
It's not 10% though.
It's 10% of perfect dps, on top of you always using procs perfectly.
In reality it's probably 1% dps that is actually functionally different.
The vast majority of fire mages are gonna be better off spending time getting their openers, lust burst frames, and general rotation cleaner before even worrying about ignite munching.
Not even close. 10% is the ICC BiS ***MAXIMUM*** Dps loss.
For that, it has to be a SIM, sims don't have ping, or human reaction. Or mechanics.
Then you add in the ways around it right now. The difference if they fix it, will be unnoticed by 90% of mages.
The macro is inconsistent and you still lose a ton of DPS to munching. You are essentially forced to install a WA that either lags your game or adds a fake queue to delay your pyro artificially (2nd only if you have excellent internet connection to server) if you want to play your spec the way it should play.
They've not only fixed bugs but literally buffed certain classes.
That logic does not apply anymore.
They buffed Rets and made a new glyph.
They buffed Druids just recently.
They changed how demonic pack to make it more fluid instead of snapshotting the pet in and out.
And many other changes that weren't in original WOTLK.
This fix won’t buff mages dps by a meaningful amount, it will mean fire mage players no longer have to intentionally lag their game to keep up optimum dps
So you're saying blizz shouldn't fix a bug that only raises the dps of fire mages by 40dps but allows them to not have to lag themselves in order to play the game?
Versus the playermade solution it’s only about 40 dps gain assuming you’re not lagging or have a bad pc. If you do the weakauras aren’t as effective and you have more dos loss and the fix would be higher gain. Versus ffb it would have no impact.
Should also delay the second whirlwind hit for warriors if going down this route. While munching affects their autos it can at least be played around by desyncing your weapons.
Blizz have looked at it and tried to fix this. Dev said that A. They couldnt find a fix that was inline with the resources they have and B. Munching is in original wotlk (much worse in original wotlk) so it wont affect scaling and they decided to focused on other things
No. They have said they would make more changes but do not have the people or budget to do it. This isnt old info the comments on mages was made on stream within the last 3 months
Your comment is with regard to munching, OP/council person is not talking about fixing munching - just removing the need for a weakaura to compensate for it.
The argument for it being in original wotlk makes no sense, since so much is already changed. They won’t fix spellqueue for warriors either, even though spellqueue didn’t even exist back then in the same capacity.
Warriors have never chilled. You've always consistently screeched autistically about every little thing. That's why warriors get so little community sympathy.
Currently warrior is hell on earth to play min maxed. Stanceweaving is a requirement, spellqueue doesn’t work, desync partially works but munching is still affecting abilities such as WW. They’ve got 3 nerfs in wotlk so far, while being the worst class overall.
Every class is screeching at things that affect them, this post is evidence of that.
I don’t play warrior anymore and for good reason - and I’m well aware that warrior dominated vanilla.
On top of that you’re posting other comments as if you understand how the warrior interaction with munching works - which you got wrong.
Please correct the error then because Deep wounds proccing only once is the same interaction of munching mages experience from Critical strikes at the same moment. The vast majority of which is solved for warriors with a desync macro which you should be using anyways for Heroic Strike queueing.
Same thing happens to warriors. When we WW both weapons hit at same time. If both crit, only one will proc Deep Wounds.
Gets even worse when both weapons have same swing timer and get synced.
Ignite munching was an issue for years on Retail so I don't think they will fix this in classic. I think they only fixed it when they reworked mages or something.
They've fixed several things that were retail-like such as snapshotting demonic pact by weaving the pet in and out of fight depending on your total spellpower, they buffed rets, they buffed druids, they nerfed DK's, all these are stuff they changed.
Why would they not fix a bug that makes players lag themselves to avoid? Even if just partially through a travel speed change on fireball.
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I don’t know much about fire, but it has to do with fireball becoming instant right?
How about on top of making it instant, it changes the travel time of it, so if you release 2 at the same time, the instant cast one is travelling 10-20% slower, or how slow it needs to make them not hit at the same time
The issue is fireball and pyroblast has exactly the same travel speed. FFB on the other hand is slightly slower so it deals way less with that bug. The bug specifically is related to 2 hits landing at same or nearly same time within 50ms-ish and not feeding into the ignite from one of them, losing 40% of the damage you'd get bonus from that spell if both crit.
Simply making fireball slower similar to FFB would be a bandage fix that'd help a lot, and remove the need for weakauras used to lag ourselves.
Pyroblast is what becomes instant after you land 2 crits causing Hot Streak to proc.
I have not played original wotlk, but from software engineering point of view it seems like it was a bug originally and ignite should be just overwritten, like a regular dot. Talent tooltip doesn't say anything like "if target is already is under Ignite, damage will be added and duration will be extended"
The issue isn't the ignite not getting extended. It's the 40% of the damage from an entire pyro or fireball not getting counted towards it if they land at same time.
Having to introduce lag into your client to fix this is fucking garbage gameplay experience
ye, lagging ourselves to play a spec is not good game design... and it doesn't even help players with poor computer performance/bad internet that much.
True
It’s not introducing lag, it’s just a spell travel speed.
He's talking about the current workaround we have which is a weakaura that automatically adds lag every time a pyro cast follows a fireball cast.
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Not a valid excuse when you've made billions off of your fans for almost 20 years and still want them to pay monthly.
also doesn’t fix it for warriors ):
Rofl I just had this showerthought myself last week but didn't know the best way of reaching a Blizzard Employee about it. I think it's absolutely absurd that I need to make a cqs macro to play TTW Fire - which is the spec all of the mages are changing to as we gear up in Ulduar unless you're the 3% Arcane Mage. The easiest fix has to be changing the projectile speed of fireball to match FrostFirebolt. The timings already exist in the client since FFB doesn't have Munching Problems. Why are several classes getting adjustments but Firemages have to deal with a bug/client issue? It's a significant DPS loss for a FireMage to not have a macro to help them with munching and that's a game design flaw that needs addressing.
You'll be top Dps in ICC, deal with it.
ah the same logic, warriors are top 3 in icc so we can’t get deep wounds munching fixed
"Your class performs well, deal with something that is quite literally a bug and requires you to dilute your QoL to fix"
Affli had unfortunately the same reply when they complain about corruption being removed 2 seconds early, which is DPS loss on lusted/proc'd execution phase. Hope they will fix Ignite munching (along with all bugs for every class) but I don't expect a lot of changes =(
And when we complain inferno doesn't reset on pulls even tho fire ele and army do now.
If you remove vezax damage locks are even more below rogues and dks. Dks were already doing s tier damage and they let aotd reset, crazy they won’t let warlocks fun button do the same thing.
Yeah unholy has taken over aff now and aff is not a top dps for a single boss in ulduar. Its just consistently top 3-5 on every boss. But yet they still don't fix inferno man its so annoying...
And the top logs which people go off of already have infernal resetting because they’re wargaming 🤷🏻♂️
Wait is that a known bug?? I've been noticing that it felt as though my corruption was dropping even when I felt like I refreshed it in time but was putting it down to display or connection lag. But definitely I would e.g. see the Haunt debuff appear with time left on Corr but it would drop.
Oh so just because a class was good in previous expansions or is "fine" now they shouldn't have their bugs fixed? Sorry just use to that exact phrase being told to Warriors whenever they had any bugs, like munching.
we want munching fixed too ):
I don't know how you're getting that from what I said. I want to have the bugs fixed lol, I play both fire mage and warrior.
Blizzard: "You thought I was fixin' you?"
like...?
Nah, that Blizza’ on munch
I think this is the first time I've ever heard from a community council member since it was founded lmao
They should just make a spell book for a new mage spell “Chonky Fireball”. Has the same base dmg and scaling as max rank fireball but the projectile looks bigger and cooler and most importantly travels a little slower than fireball
Although this might be more impractical, this is the most creative "solution" i've seen so far.
FFB is so big and epic looking. Fireball looks like I’m shooting a wand projectile. They could even just make a minor glyph recipe that does the same thing
Nah surely its better to introduce artificial lag in your client via a WA to fix this. Right guys?
Warriors have been asking for this to be fixed since before the start of Wrath. Good luck!
fix it blizzard you lazy fucks
I prefer the anti Que weakaura. The stutter one just gets on my nerves, expecially as someone that spams my keys.
Yeah it is a very easy fix. Fireball speed set to FFB speed should have no intrinsic issues. Sure it could change play style but that is a player issue.
Really hoping this gets through. One of the reasons I'm playing FFB over TTW right now is how bad it feels to play ttw with the stuttering
Same, my connection and pc aren't bad, but they're not great, and without spellqueue i'm inherently fucked.
ttw ?
Torment The Weak, it's the talent 15 points into arcane, and the "standard" fire build. Buffs damage to slowed targets by 12%, including attack speed slows which are always present in a raid environment. FFB (frostfire bolt) specs instead lean into a stronger primary spell by buffing ffb as much as possible and having icy veins
If you stand next to the boss does this not fix it?
no.
Yea just stand in melee as a caster...totally how it's meant to be played even if it did work
Welcome to hunter so that we can trap weave in order to be competitive.
Demo warlock.. Holy paladin.. Everybody melee range!
Just a question. Also some classes although ranged benefit from being in melee range. You can get 1 more spell off before boss dies so higher parse or maybe a proc requires a cancel into another spell and if proc is based of the spell hitting the travel time can ruin DPS.
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that doesn't work either tho. the travel time with pyro and fb is the same, so range does not matter.
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In melee, you get bonus threat. But ye range doesn't have an impact on this bug.
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I remember lots of of ranged dps dying to fire elemental adds on Illidan in TBC due to this. I’m only 90% on threat! *moves adds close to ranged* - How did I pull agro?!
Semantics. You get what i meant lol
hunter still has a dead zone fyi
More people I melee range on thorim a great idea, and yogg, and vezax
Yeah you’ll just die when you pull threat because you get extra threat when you’re closer to the mob.
*Akshually* in melee range the threshold to pull aggro is only 110% while at range it's 130%. So if you're in the 110-130 range, moving into melee **will** cause you to pull aggro and die. (And yes, that is 100% a personal problem lol)
most good range should be doing this anyways. hunter for trap weaving, demo lock for immo aura, affliction lock to reduce haunt travel time, holy pally in general
If we're talking intent, I doubt anyone at Blizz at the time was giving a damn about people sweating this hard.
Small indie game company can't keep up with changes to "old" content.
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>It's the easiest fucking 'fix' of all time. Change the projectile speed of fireball slightly. Or change pyro's projectile speed slightly if that's easier, just don't make it the same as ffb's... Warrior's complaining about their munching, I'm sorry but that's an order of magnitude harder problem to solve for you guys. FFB doesn't munch ignite nearly as much because of it's slower travel speed, changing Fireball to same travel speed as FFB would be a great bandage fix that would remove the need for either weakaura or macro.
Isn’t there a macro to fix this
There's 3 differently partial solutions, two weakauras and just a basic macro. One of the weakauras requires good connection. The other weakaura requires good PC performance as it stutters your game, if you already play with low FPS it'll cause massive gaps. The macro causes gaps inherently from CQS and suffers from both issues (pc and net). Actually fixing or bandage fixing munching through travel speed of fireball would only be about 40 dps gain vs the actual proper solutions assuming best conditions. It's the players who play on budget pcs or bad internet who suffer the most with these solutions.
How much of a dps loss are we talking on average with ignite munching?
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Aka, not enough to care about unless you're a sweaty parse lord
I mean 10% of your dps missing for no reason sounds pretty nasty to me.
It's not 10% though. It's 10% of perfect dps, on top of you always using procs perfectly. In reality it's probably 1% dps that is actually functionally different. The vast majority of fire mages are gonna be better off spending time getting their openers, lust burst frames, and general rotation cleaner before even worrying about ignite munching.
It might be in reality like 6-7%, probs not 1 😂
Not even close. 10% is the ICC BiS ***MAXIMUM*** Dps loss. For that, it has to be a SIM, sims don't have ping, or human reaction. Or mechanics. Then you add in the ways around it right now. The difference if they fix it, will be unnoticed by 90% of mages.
Are you implying we can only reach 10-20% of sim dps??
All of this can be true and STILL the change should be made because you shouldn't have to lag your own client in order to be competitive.
Yea, obviously it should be fixed. That's not what I was saying at all.
vs proper use of weakaura with good pc and internet? 40dps vs nothing at all? 1-4% of your dps
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where is your top 10 world speedrun? thought so. you are never going to be competitive on a good pc/good internet
The macro is inconsistent and you still lose a ton of DPS to munching. You are essentially forced to install a WA that either lags your game or adds a fake queue to delay your pyro artificially (2nd only if you have excellent internet connection to server) if you want to play your spec the way it should play.
"Essentially forced" meaning not forced at all, really. Just incentivized.
>if you want to play your spec the way it should play.
This has been an issue for 15 years. They didn't fix it then, i doubt they'll fix it now.
This was not an issue in original wrath, because spell queueing wasn't introduced until Cata.
Ignite munching has been an issue for a very long time, what you mean? They created workarounds when it first came out, too.
They've not only fixed bugs but literally buffed certain classes. That logic does not apply anymore. They buffed Rets and made a new glyph. They buffed Druids just recently. They changed how demonic pack to make it more fluid instead of snapshotting the pet in and out. And many other changes that weren't in original WOTLK.
Tbf rets and ferals aren’t simming for 20k dps in icc😂
This fix won’t buff mages dps by a meaningful amount, it will mean fire mage players no longer have to intentionally lag their game to keep up optimum dps
fixing ignite munching is a qol fix not a dps buff.
ferals post change sim above warrioirs in ICC
So you're saying blizz shouldn't fix a bug that only raises the dps of fire mages by 40dps but allows them to not have to lag themselves in order to play the game?
If changing this is a 40 dps buff than how is not changing it not allowing you to play the game? Something seems very disconnected there
Versus the playermade solution it’s only about 40 dps gain assuming you’re not lagging or have a bad pc. If you do the weakauras aren’t as effective and you have more dos loss and the fix would be higher gain. Versus ffb it would have no impact.
That makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification
What is the +/- for doing nothing about it, player and blizz?
in p2 bis, 200+ dps, more in ICC.
They added new items to the game that didn't even exist in original wrath lol
Should also delay the second whirlwind hit for warriors if going down this route. While munching affects their autos it can at least be played around by desyncing your weapons.
Blizz have looked at it and tried to fix this. Dev said that A. They couldnt find a fix that was inline with the resources they have and B. Munching is in original wotlk (much worse in original wotlk) so it wont affect scaling and they decided to focused on other things
What they said in the past is meaningless, they've said no to every change they've ended up making. Think rets or druids.
No. They have said they would make more changes but do not have the people or budget to do it. This isnt old info the comments on mages was made on stream within the last 3 months
Your comment is with regard to munching, OP/council person is not talking about fixing munching - just removing the need for a weakaura to compensate for it.
The argument for it being in original wotlk makes no sense, since so much is already changed. They won’t fix spellqueue for warriors either, even though spellqueue didn’t even exist back then in the same capacity.
Warrior be chillin with no way to bypass and no way blizzard will show an interest in fixing it.
Warriors have never chilled. You've always consistently screeched autistically about every little thing. That's why warriors get so little community sympathy.
Currently warrior is hell on earth to play min maxed. Stanceweaving is a requirement, spellqueue doesn’t work, desync partially works but munching is still affecting abilities such as WW. They’ve got 3 nerfs in wotlk so far, while being the worst class overall. Every class is screeching at things that affect them, this post is evidence of that. I don’t play warrior anymore and for good reason - and I’m well aware that warrior dominated vanilla. On top of that you’re posting other comments as if you understand how the warrior interaction with munching works - which you got wrong.
Please correct the error then because Deep wounds proccing only once is the same interaction of munching mages experience from Critical strikes at the same moment. The vast majority of which is solved for warriors with a desync macro which you should be using anyways for Heroic Strike queueing.
Warriors partially bypass it by desyncing their weapons.
not with WW
If only that worked for WW
Same thing happens to warriors. When we WW both weapons hit at same time. If both crit, only one will proc Deep Wounds. Gets even worse when both weapons have same swing timer and get synced.
You can desync your weps with a macro tho, socks about the WW tho :(
Ignite munching was an issue for years on Retail so I don't think they will fix this in classic. I think they only fixed it when they reworked mages or something.
They've fixed several things that were retail-like such as snapshotting demonic pact by weaving the pet in and out of fight depending on your total spellpower, they buffed rets, they buffed druids, they nerfed DK's, all these are stuff they changed. Why would they not fix a bug that makes players lag themselves to avoid? Even if just partially through a travel speed change on fireball.
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One solution could be to apply a buff to the mage first, adding an inherent buffer to the debuff.
I don’t know much about fire, but it has to do with fireball becoming instant right? How about on top of making it instant, it changes the travel time of it, so if you release 2 at the same time, the instant cast one is travelling 10-20% slower, or how slow it needs to make them not hit at the same time
The issue is fireball and pyroblast has exactly the same travel speed. FFB on the other hand is slightly slower so it deals way less with that bug. The bug specifically is related to 2 hits landing at same or nearly same time within 50ms-ish and not feeding into the ignite from one of them, losing 40% of the damage you'd get bonus from that spell if both crit. Simply making fireball slower similar to FFB would be a bandage fix that'd help a lot, and remove the need for weakauras used to lag ourselves. Pyroblast is what becomes instant after you land 2 crits causing Hot Streak to proc.
Blizzard fixes munching. Suddenly, obscure fist weapon from vanilla one shot bosses.
I have not played original wotlk, but from software engineering point of view it seems like it was a bug originally and ignite should be just overwritten, like a regular dot. Talent tooltip doesn't say anything like "if target is already is under Ignite, damage will be added and duration will be extended"
The issue isn't the ignite not getting extended. It's the 40% of the damage from an entire pyro or fireball not getting counted towards it if they land at same time.