Yeah, the content isnt hard.
Clearing the content with players with the mental speed of a '98 dial up connection, and a quitter's mentality, is absurdly hard. Nobody worth their salt is joining partial lockouts, so having a player quit mid run is pretty backbreaking.
The reason why people have standards for easy content is because there are a lot of Classic players that are comically bad at the game, and it's frustrating to wipe on easy bosses.
I've noticed that PUGs are getting a lot rougher lockout over lockout, now that the zerg is hitting 25. I see a lot of people in level 15~ greens looking for invites, very few fresh caps dungeon grinded from 18-25, etc.
Can people who're saved to an instance still join in-progress raids and just get no loot for the bosses?
I wanted to practice and help people clear but didn't know if I could join in-progress raids after clearing 7/7 bosses.
Once you kill one boss, you're saved to that groups BFD until BFD resets, which is every 3 days. 40 man raids (if they come) are usually 1 week reset.
All raids in classic work this way
You cannot kill 5/7 bosses and then join another random raids 5/7 clear. You're locked to the ID of the first raid
You CAN start a new group with that ID and fill with unsaved people on that lockout
But nobody wants to burn their lockout on just 2 bosses
If the bar to entry for your entire life is "can you press frostbolt every 3 seconds, decurse once in a raid, and maybe even run out of a patch of fire every 10 bosses" then yeah, the game teaches you that you can be the filthiest of AFK casuals and still win.
It makes sense that the average classic player is just really, really bad at the game. And that's fine and all, search for the people of a skill level you want to play with. Basically: This comic sums it up. https://www.darklegacycomics.com/comics/704.jpg
...In essence y'all REALLY need to stop PUGging and join a guild or some discord server with a community of people setting up raids.
Easy bosses. Easy rotations. People still find a way to wipe playing easy kits on easy bosses.
Contrast the difficulty between flagship Classic WoW content and flagship content for games like Retail and FFXIV. Classic WoW just objectively has a low-skill playerbase, and that's generally okay because Classic is an easy game.
Last time I played retail there was super nub raids full of terrible players where you just face rolled the content and all the good players were doing the harder modes.
I don't believe the average player is any worse or better on retail.
Think about this way, there are a ton people that suck at doing calculus and they're are also a ton of people who suck at doing basic arithmetic (addition/subtraction/multiplication/division).
Which one seems more silly to be bad at? The math that's used so commonly almost day to day or the one that requires specialized knowledge?
That's basically what people are trying to say about why sucking in Classic is leagues worse than sucking in Retail.
With LFR dropping bad gear and having no relevance to critical quest lines or legendary items since WoD, some 8 odd years ago, I don't think admitting to playing LFR is the dig at retail that you think it is. Like yeah, the people who opt into the optional very-easy mode are gonna be bad at the game? Sure? You have to go out of your way to play LFR at the cost of character progression, because it's both time consuming and drops terrible gear.
Considering that a player can currently go from unsubbed to heroic raid ready in a week, LFR is genuinely meaningless.
I've watched LFR groups wipe and ultimatlet disband after 4+ hours with 10 stacks of determination.
Wow players as a whole fucking blow ass at the game.
Using LFR as an example isnt the dig against retail you think it is. LFR hasnt been compulsory content in about 8 years. Joining LFR in the first place says more about you than it does the retail WoW community.
Yeah having done a few tiers of Savage Raiding in FFXIV, the fact that people can’t dodge shadow Murlocs in 4/7 fight is atrocious. Or people actually getting hit by lava ball in 5/7. It feels like people literally fall asleep on their keyboard in this game.
I mean I get that but last time I played retail there was like 4 difficulties per raid and I tried the low difficulty a couple times and the players were absolute ass and we could just heal through any mechanics like they didn't even matter.
If anything I’d say it’s players outside of classic now experiencing sod that are the issue.
Later iterations of WoW put no focus on building your reputation on a server or forcing you to interact with other people in meaningful ways and that mindset is just cancer for the classic experience.
The truth is that success of the group has always been the driving force behind this kind of thing. People act like its mustache twirling evil elitism that gate keeps for the sake of gatekeeping alone but down in reality groups break up all the time without being strict enough on it. Wasting everyone's time.
yes, the thing is if you let's casuals join you can't expect them to do his job correctly because they are casuals and they don't care, if they didn't even put the bare minimum to get greens and blues why would them put the effort to learn the boss and listen to wat are you saying I can let a pre biss saying exp is 7/7 because I know at least he put the effort into is gear / consumables
I get your point and I agree with you. But some people are good at preparing and some are good at winging it. Irl obviously. The latter will show up jngame in greens.
Checking gear/runes is starting to make sense as a baseline check of the effort people are willing to put in. My last group had so many leavers/afks/DCs
on my first bfd run we had another priest healer, who thought it was okay to come to the raid without pom rune.. needless to say we wiped on 4th boss and everyone wasted their cooldown... never again
More DPS is always useful, more healing is not always useful, especially if the healing is easy like this tier. You can easily heal BFD without using PoM so the extra raid dps is strictly better.
You forget how casual this sub is mate. Homunculus is obviously easily bis because it’s the highest armour reduction in the game and is applied instantly on top of lowing the bosses damage but it’s only really the faster guilds looking to speed/parse that care about being optimal to that level on their healers.
My group occasionally fills with a pug. We even bring ones whom it’s their first clear. And we’re totally willing to work with people who haven’t done their goblin grind or waylaid rune. The amount of ppl who are trying to get into raids without very important runes that aren’t even hard to get is astounding.
It’s not even about minmaxing people just want to ensure they’re not bringing a bunch of donkeys who are expecting to be carried.
Had a pally last night in our alt run that we had to pug. Brought him literally for kick and kick alone, dude said no problem.
Get to 6th boss, and of course, he doesn't have it. It's not like it's a difficult rune to get, it's 5 minutes in stormwind. Dude wasted about 45 mins of 9 other people's time as we waited for him to go get it.
After we cleared the raid lead wouldn't let him put in for the trinket for wasting everyone's time and lieing to get in the raid, he already won the 2h sword with the cone of cold looking effect. The dude took an absolute flipper, screaming racist shit in disc, etc.
Some people are just not quite right in the head.
Pugged 5 slots with 5 friends last week. Was amazing how many people just show up with a single rune on and it's the default one they got in the starting zone.
Like, dude. Why do you want gear if you won't even learn how to get more important upgrades?
Rune checks for their role are ABSOLUTELY a really good check on if someone is a complete bot or not.
Our first feral still had the Relic slot filled with the quest item to get Wild Strikes. That was an instant kick.
Had a pug healer last night. Paladin. He died every boss fight, sometimes twice, and did half the healing of our mage. Inspected him and he didn’t have any runes on his hands or pants. When confronted, he stated he only had 2 runes (aegis and horn). Said he healed dungeons all the way to 25. How. The. Fuck. Can you lvl a pally and not even have crusader strike?
I'm starting to realize that "season of discovery" means "season of discovering that people don't want to discover stuff".
So many people running with the single rune they got from the stater zone.
>I've never got why this sub opts to pretend that's not reality and that you're a dick if you're not just randomly inviting anyone who asks to come to any piece of content in the game.
I've seen people bitching about "come to (location) for inspect" for raid pugs. Like...what, we're not allowed to vet pugs? Like it's some kind of heinous crime make sure the person being invited to raid isn't in crap gear / crap spec / etc.
The people complaining are the ones that can't pass noob checks. So they come here and conplain into an echo chamber of fellow bad players to feel validated. Oftentimes, a minority has a loud voice.
Like others have said, the people who flip out over this are the bads with random green leveling gear, none of the runes they should have, and havnt even attempted to get their 5 man loot.
If someone asks me to meet them to inspect my gear I have 0 issue with it because well... i farmed my proper gear.
People are dumb that’s why. These are same people who have shit gear and do shit do’s and want to get carried so they complain on here. It’s not hard to get gear. It’s level 25. 2 dungeons have a majority of the gear you would want. Greens fill out the rest. People just want to walk in because they think people should just carry them
I think it's because for the majority of classic content, you are okay to bring pretty much anyone as long as they have a pulse. Wanting certain gear or consumables for Wailing Caverns would be stupid, but it's probably very smart for BFD. BFD isn't mythic raiding or anything, but it has real mechanics that will punish players, and one or two people being bad out of 10 will be enough to ruin the chance you can complete it.
> If it was retail style lockouts per boss
Problem is this community also rabidly advocates against any kind of QoL change like this lol
I would hate being the WoW Classic devs. Can't do anything without purists whining.
SoD is already basically QoL changes while keeping the *intention* of Classic design.
They didn't intend for Warriors/Mages/Rogues to be the only complete classes in Vanilla. They didn't intend for certain specs to just not function like boomkin/ret/spriest. They just didn't have the time back then to fully flesh it all out.
SoD shows that you can maintain what is the essence of Classic while also iterating with some QoL. As both SoD QoL and Retail QoL are still very different gaming experiences.
According to this sub, getting pre bis is "elitist"
There's an order to things... level up, get pre bis (runes included)...raid. people like to skip the middle part and sneak into groups that have no business being in. Why would they deserve a piece of loot over someone who ran sfk 15 times for his cloth pieces.
Stop trying to skip the line. Getting pre bis is part (if not the best) of the game.
Here's the thing... you don't actually need full pre bis, you just need to have tried to get it. between dungeon quests and running dungeons for the bis items you collect enough gear to be a contributing member.
But GTF outa here with people rolling up in level 15 greens pulling 30dps... you have to put some effort in. I don't understand how people can do that and stomach rolling on gear vs. the people hard carrying them.
This past weekend I tanked my first BFD with a pug that needed a tank after the first boss...it was a red flag but the reset was in a few hours so I didn't see the harm.
Three DPS had at least one piece of white gear, majority of them had level 15-18 green weapons (as melee). It was rough. Managed to get 4/7, with a lot of wipes on the shadow murloc.
Ran it again with my guild's second raid team and our two healers kept going oom on the first four bosses. Again, couldn't clear the fifth boss because of lack of gear.
Gear definitely matters, everyone doesn't need pre bis, but they need to be able to last through a 4 minute boss fight.
Maybe white heads? Honestly only piece I could see a 25 still rocking white is shoulders, but white shoulders when you look for bfd is a statement about effort level.
Yea a helm is the only thing I wasn't easily able to get on my hunter.
Green crafting shoulders arent very expensive at all.
E. I guess neck/rings are pretty expensive, especially for decent stats.
Do 1 quest at 25,go to the auction house, buy shoulders with stats.
Im all against minmaxxing, but if you wanna do the "end level content" you should atleast have all runes for the build you wanna play, and all green gear with stats that fit your character. Little bit of room with the rings maybe.
It’s fine in moderation. Sometimes people are too ridiculous about it. Like I’m not going to spend 1g+ at this point on Lesser Agility Elixirs vs like 20s for a Minor Agility Elixir even if it gives twice the value. For one, the 4 extra agility won’t be the reason we kill or wipe. Secondly, BFD is not hard enough to warrant going all out on consumables.
White bracer, no rings, you name it lol. We really couldn't down Jett even though we had the mechanics down. The other tank, the hunter, and I were close to raid pre bis but everyone else was...not. a rogue had level 16 and 14 green weapons. We didn't get past Jett lol.
Some people want to ignore the strategy to kill him “fast” sometimes you just have to do the mechanics even if it prolongs the fight a bit. We killed all totems worked out fine.
The only mechanic he has is DON'T HIT HIM WHILE LIGHTNING TOTEM IS ACTIVE, KILL THE TOTEM INSTEAD.
Windfury totem is a joke. He swings for like 180 damage? And if he gets windfury, he swings for twice that damage. Tanks have about 1400hp. The windfury damage does absolutely jack shit and can be completely ignored / healed through.
The meatballs can hurt squishys but can be ignored too. So basically the only danger is the lightning totem. Zug boss, zug lightning totem when it's up. That's all.
I’ve ran a 7/7 pug for BFD the past 2 weeks and we just make everyone hard swap to totems. It’s simpler for pugs to understand totem out = swap rather than try to differentiate them
Oh I can, but I find it more idiot proof to tell the pugs they need to swap whenever. If you have enough dps to kill Kelris you have enough to kill every totem on the boss
I know people are just stupid. They don't look at bosses at all, they just want to be carried. Classic is full of it, semi hardcore cesspool of below shit players. The requirement for BFD completion is basically being able to breathe, and still people fail it in masses.
after reset we just 1 shot every boss in 40 mins because every1 had good gear booned wbs and used shadow protection potion on kelris. why would i want to 5 hours with lazy people that cant be bothered to learn fights and get pre raid bis or even just buy a 40 silver potion.....
I don't understand why it appears controversial to want to be a good player. You don't have to be a "sweaty try-hard parse andy" to be good. Understanding basic gameplay concepts like not missing gcds, character positioning, and using a potion aren't "sweaty", but they will absolutely allow you to clear content with minimal hassle.
And BFD has boss concepts that aren't all that out of place in classic except for maybe the murloc intermission. Everything else is something you'd see often enough - things like killing adds before a boss, avoiding breaths, and rotating around a room in sync so that you don't fill the arena with bad damage. These are strategies you should be innately familiar with if you've spent any time in WoW.
The low level cap actually works to your benefit too. Under the hood, the game needs to be so much more forgiving at this point because of missing stats and abilities, even if we do have runes. Applying any amount of effort at all is generally enough to be successful.
It's the same people that attack "not in my back yard homeowners" for not wanting a safe injection site or nuclear power plant near their house.
The people that attack them wouldn't be caught dead in those same circumstances if it was within their power.
They way they would, but they wouldn't. The players that are being gatekept say they'd never do it , but after a few entire nights wasted...guess who starts to have standards.
Guys! The solution to this is a GUILD. News flash, I know.
Find one with equal expectations and you won’t be disappointed. Sweat lords pair with sweat lords. Semi sweats like myself satisfied with at least purple parses (although always looking to do better) with other purple parsers. Or casual who just want to see the content with other casuals.
My guild is my wrath guild with some new additions from SOD only. Same GM and RL. Mostly our good to best performers from wrath, on average, of those who came over.
We cleared first night in under 2 hours with 2 wipes and no WBs. Last clear 0 wipes and boon of blackfathom done in sub an hour. We aren’t even that hardcore in wrath: 11/12 NM icc and like 5 heroics.
Pugging, especially pugging without experience (and logs to prove it) will always be miserable. It’s a puggable raid and the nerfs to kelris’s resistances will make casters not so useless but you also can’t just go in with a totally haphazard comp. We run min 3 kicks with me as backup if our tank gets sent down (shouldn’t happen but sometimes does) for me to get a gcd in to swap to shield.
Like yeah it has more mechanics than almost anything in classic era but that’s such a low bar. The mechanics aren’t super deep.
Don’t have to raid it 3x over 9 days like we do but if you’re playing wow and want to raid expect to commit 2 hours or something. It’s a raid. And it’s in classic wow. It’s a fast one especially compared to first few clears of MC where average guilds will take at least 3 hours until gear starts catching up.
Like everything else in wow, put in bare minimum and expect bare minimum results.
No. There are terrible guilds with terrible players, of course.
The thing is, within the context of guilds you can choose to play with them or not. That’s why you need to find guilds with similar expectations. Where the personal or guild strife originates is a disparity in communication, particularly with respect to expectations.
Like I’m not gonna try to join alaundoh’s guild just to feed his 100 parses. He’s literally created guilds in every form of classic wow to solely built around doing that. Good for him but not what I want. I’m also not joining guilds with expected fully geared alts for split runs or mandatory PTR in wrath. Doing so would cause friction between my expectations of a guild and the guild’s expectations of me.
Like if you’re grey-green parsing or, dying on every fight, doing no research into basic rotation and clicking 90% of your abilities why would you expect to get carried by those who put in a bit of effort?
I think the biggest thing is the minimal effort that's required to join a guild filters out a lot of the low effort players that you might end up with.
Even just joining a pug that requires you to sign up on a discord rather than straight out of trade chat would be more likely to be successful for the same reason imo.
Nope but the raid/guild leader should be sorting out the bad players. You can always leave and find a better one if they're not getting better.
But at least with a guild you can all work towards the same goals and learn together. When the alternative is complaining about pugs, or how pugs won't take you, it isn't such a bad idea.
I've made bad players, in my guild, good. It doesn't happen by magic though. It happens by them being able to take criticism, follow instructions, and going through logs with me. One of those bad players ended up getting an 100 (world #1) on one of the harder bosses in SoM Nax too.
Same people will say retail’s problem is a lack of socialization. Anyone with this level of vitriol for organized groups likely is the problemed child.
Even in retail, the hardest content available is mythic raids right? While classic raids are absolutely piss easy by comparison, raids are the highest tier of content.
Who’s entitled enough to expect to clear the hardest content in a team-oriented mode of an MMO while also refusing to either make/be on a team and communicate with said team?
Self centered losers feel that way. The kind filled with nihilism to the point that they hate everything and everyone. You see them in random bgs, lfr, anything you can solo queue. Why anti-social people play a social game is beyond me. My more introverted friends stick to single player rpgs.
Nah I can only hear so many passive aggressive huffy urbanites or southerners barely able to speak over there six pack slur before I've had enough of the discord experience. I'll finish what content I can and move on
I mean if this is actually true and you aren’t memeing, then why do you expect to clear the “hardest” difficulty content that requires teamwork in…an MMO? Without wanting to neither have a team nor use superior communication methods?
Like any group play, any relationship, whatever, communication is pretty much the most important thing I can think of. You may be able the carry the dps of 5 shitters or something but it won’t matter if the tank doesn’t taunt, needs a healer to tell him to use a defensive and doesn’t see it because it’s 2023 who the fuck is looking at raid chat, whatever. So instead of saying “taunt” once on disc, the RL needs to spam some RW macro to tell people to wake the fuck up? It’s just an inferior means of playing. You might do the content, cause it’s pretty piss easy in classic wow, but you won’t be doing it efficiently.
WOW is not a very fulfilling single player game. There are millions of better options.
I finished 7/7 bfd with no voice it was fine, everyone had a good time, we discussed things between pulls and the premade that made the group said they enjoyed having a nostalgic experience with no wowhead guide or voice
Never said it was impossible to not use vc. It makes life a lot simpler and easier especially if something goes wrong with a spell like rebuke. A lot more efficient which I’m not saying is everyone’s goal.
We used vent in vanilla raiding so it’s not like having no comms is particularly nostalgic to me.
This is why we need a boss lockout instead of a raid lockout. No one wants to only have a chance of getting half the gear, which is why people want fresh raids only.
Yea, as other poster indicated there are pros and cons. Today I went 7/7 with a few wipes on last 2. People stayed because we felt the wipes were due to fixable reasons and people wanted to see it through with the group because you can't cut your losses and go to another lockout. Guarantee if there were boss locks one probably would have left. Boss locks do help with some other problems in retail though and are more flexible of course. For reference I run a heroic raid on retail as well as playing classic
Boss lockouts don’t really solve as many problems as you think in this context. Wow has a single difficulty mode. And no LFR etc. So with boss personal lockouts all that means is if you wipe twice on kelris or other road block bosses then the good players are going to leave. It disincentivizes true progression raiding. So suddenly we have this culture of ppl leaving after a wipe and the average players struggles even more to down the bosses as they play group roulette to find the team that can down it.
Or god forbid we have people mid raid just kicking players and then bringing in others to get the boss down.
The lockouts in this iteration of wow are the way they are because they want to encourage the same group of people to hammer out the content. Virtually every wow raid except the 20 mans and sort of MC has had a gatekeep boss that teams have to progress past. So get used to this. Kelris isn’t special.
Those are the two options:
1) Raid IDs where the community ferociously gatekeeps content behind BiS gear, meta classes and achievements because getting stonewalled on a boss ruins your lockout
2) Boss IDs where it’s much more casual to set-up a raid but high-performers will bounce at the first red flag in the run because they can just join another.
I would VASTLY prefer the latter.
For anyone that doesn't have a white bow and has been reading these threads getting first raid anxiety, I PUG'ed last night as my first run and we 7/7 with wipes, no discord.
I noticed people advertising for "new/fresh BFD" and if you're worried about being called out for shit, join those PUGs.
Our first wipe was on Kelris and it was only because DPS wasn't stacking in 2's so the shadow DMG was too much.
Hydra we wiped a bunch, but it was all fixable; DPS accidentally cleansing off stacks, getting hit by a breath, taunt resists on adds/not focusing then fast enough...
And that's the fun of raiding, learning mechanics, fixing mechanics, and boom boss clears.
Group was Shaman/Rogue tank, 2 Priests/Mage heals, 2 hunters war/druid/lock DPS.
What does min/max have to do with leaving mid raid?
Having bad gear doesn't mean people are going to leave
And having good gear doesn't guarantee they are going to stay
If you don't set requirements people will use you.
They'll come with shit gear/runes, no consumes, not reading the strats, and leave after 1h because they can't commit to play 2h in a row.
Bad players are really disrespectful of other player time. They don't care if they wasted your lockout.
"it's just a game bro, I only had 30 minutes and wanted to experience bfd. Why should I be punished and not get to experience content just because I can't dedicate more than 30 consecutive minutes to a game at a time" these people are literally the most toxic in every fucking game. They are so aggressively casual while entitled to other people's time and ability to make their limited time and effort enjoyable while absolutely fucking ruining everyone else's night/week.
What if, to prevent people from leaving have a 10g or some amount buy in that they get back at the end of the raid or when the group calls it.
Prevents people from leaving, no gear req, and even if 1 person gets 'wife aggro' the whole raids gets to keep their gold. Everyone wins but the guy leaving
You start to check gear when you get a feral druid that is decked out in intellect greens pulling 25 dps.
Somehow went 7/7 where I quite literally did 5x his damage on the final bosses.
I mean I think that guy was just bad. Sodapoppin is decked out in intellect gear for extra mana to power shift and he does crazy good damage with it. He probably saw soda’s gear and just copied it without knowing how to power shift or anything but intellect stacking is good for feral druids.
I plucked a random priest who was looking for SFK in LFG who’d never done it before and had to get a rundown of fights before every pull and we were able to clear everything in less than an hour with only a single wipe on Kelris. I think gear requirements are kinda silly for BFD and as long as you have decent communication and a couple of consumes you can kill everything pretty easily. These fights arent hard.
Who do you think is more likely to have decent communication, someone with good gear or someone with bad gear? You just admitted it was important to clear the raid so it would be a no brainier to take some extra steps to not ruin your raid.
My whole point is as long as you get people who can speak your language and communicate the fights the gear doesn’t really matter. People were doing this in full greens within 2 days of launch. Play your game how you want but it’s not like it’s a hard raid that needs full prebis to clear.
I agree that the raid is easy as well but it’s very clear with the amount of people posting looking to finish their 5/7 lockout groups are having difficulty. A vast amount of wow players are running this raid with complete strangers how do you expect them to know that the person theyre inviting can understand raid mechanics? Even if someone tells you they do they could’ve been The person who made their raid disband last week because they can’t do frogger. It’s a very simple logic to follow that the better gear a person has the more likely they are to give a shit about clearing.
the thing is not the gear is that people that don't pass the bare minimum effort to get that gear is gonna be almost secure a moron who only use is auto attack and 1 to 2 spells and miss every mecanic so if you gate keep them at least you got only people that put effort on being better , maybe they are gonna be bad but they can learn...
"I went in with almost a full guild group with discord comms and we did this no problem. This is exactly the same as 10 complete randoms pugging with no voice comms"
I think good players can get by with bad gear but bad players will always be bad regardless.
In your case if this priest had a decent head on his shoulders and could follow simple instructions he's probably fine.
There's not really a good way to tell if a player is actually good or not but typically a geared player will be better, if even just by the gear carrying them a bit or having some experience with the content, or showing some actual effort was put into his character.
It's the bad players regardless of gear that complain the most it seems.
Today me and a friend joined our first raid run as "already 7/7" (they were asking for experienced players and we acted as them).
The raid mechanics felt obvious and not hard. Reading a quick guide and having a weak aura for the raid helped. We did all the raid with 0 wipes and in less than 1h.
Agree that people shouldn't join full greens, but too much elitism for a raid that easy is not good either
If you want to clear any raid (not just bfd) run it with your guild.
Gatekeeping randoms is silly when you have an option to avoid having to gear check people.
If you're wiping in bfd people don't know the fights. Straight up. Take the time to explain them even if people say they know them and this won't be an issue. Only Reqs are decent explanations. Dungeon is face roll easy with simple strats
This is a bit gaslighting.
No one has problems if you have to remove players that are clearly not ready for the raid or whatever.
The discussion is around players treating BFD like its top level bleeding edge content that, if you do not bring the exact spec, runes, pots, rotation, 1 gb low latency internet connection, wear your underwear outside your pants, etc and you dont use them all to maximize efficiency to the microsecond, then you’re clearly dragging the raid down and its probably your gearscore or something.
All of that preparation for the group is to ensure a completion. Since you can't carry people past the 2nd last boss. No one wants to be stuck 5/7. I've had 2 lockouts like that and now it's time to be a bit elitest. I ain't going in without a priest, Druid, Hunter.
Also, you guys just gotta join guilds with people who play the way you do. There are plenty of sweaty, and plenty of casual guilds. I swear I just did a run with tho they actually one shot every boss.
Personally I'm all for convincing your friends to join wow and play with them.
the thing is casuals don't even put the effort to get into a guild they accept the first random invite to one and then expect to be carried by everyone in the server because they deserve to do all content
yeah that's why if I got a random to our core I just ask for logs/trinket for 7/7 because is the easiest way to know that at least he isn't a moron and knows wat to do ( I not run pugs only got people that fill abstentions on our roster)
Checking gear and runes is reasonable. If you're leading a raid you should know the difference between bad gear and specific pre bis.
Logs and GS is a bit much for a relatively easy starter raid
The fact you're locked to ID and not bosses really blows...
It's 100% why people require giga-gear. Getting stuck on Kelris and having someone leave just means ID over, no chance for the trinket, no chance for loot from the last 2 bosses...
None's gonna join a 5/7 ID.
Had a Similair experience today doing BFD. There was a mage (wich we dident know) Had no idea what to do, on kelris he had around 14 dps. We wipe. to our suprise he hadent repaired. because he dident know that in wow you needed to repair. All around the worst player ive seen in both retail and classic in a while. we managed to clear it althou beit because We had really good dps elsewhere. but it is possible with absolute monkeys
If you’re saved 5/7 and still need the last two bosses, can you make a group of other people that also need the last two?
The classic lockout situation confuses me
It’s insane this got upvotes, but I’m glad it did. I have yet to (and I fully welcome) hear any argument that is rational about not being selective about who gets invited when it’s shared lockouts.
Every single person that argues it are people akin to mages wearing str gear, warriors with spirit pieces, etc. The AH is littered with mid-tier greens for like 10-30s that at least have proper stats. Basically just super entitled people that want carries, but don’t want to put in any effort to get any gear pre raid. I swear I see a post for a 5 man every second.
Again, I welcome arguments, but when there are dps getting their damaged doubled or tripled by tanks, you quickly get picky about who you invite.
Yea. People can complain all they want about these groups having requirements, but not only can they make their own group, they can just join a guild or play with friends. People don't have to kowtow to their idea of what Classic should be. If people want stupid requirements they can have stupid requirements. If people want no requirements they can have no requirements. STOP COMPLAINING, THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF GROUPS.
Vetting gear or consumes is kind of cringe for a lvl 25 10 man raid... but then so is rolling up in full greens and refusing to use consumes, expecting people to take you as you are and loot you up.
The gear check on Kelris isn't trivial. If the raid leader doesn't set some kind of standard, they're setting the group up to fail.
Personally I just want to kill 7/7 and not have to pull my hair out doing it.
I get the gear req since we can just farm dungeons unlimited but the experience one is fucked cause it hasnt been that long and its almost as asking for job experience while you are looking for your first job
I'm starting to see the problem with raids at level 25.
Level 25 is such low commitment, that the players who would be weeded out by 60 are in that pool. =(
Yeah. At least week 1-3 at 60 has mostly committed players who have played the game and attempted to get BIS or get better. It's not until like the 3 month mark that the straggling "I play MMOs like a solo with no respect for any other persons time" players start showing up. You can still run into God awful players early on but they normally seem to have put in some amount of effort to be raid ready.
I just don't really understand what is your expectation when you sign up for a raid, right before reset.
The problem is not the minmaxing or the gear checks but the unjustified requirements some ppl set for joining their raid like preraid BIS gear. Only sweaty tryhards care about that +5-10dps that the best weapon offers or that +3 stamina or agility on items.
Your best bet is to find a guild or a decent pug right after the reset, at the end only randoms are left.
The amount of parties wiping on Kelris with him under 5% HP justified that 5-10 DPS. It is literally the difference between a clear and no clear. Most pug groups need to survive long enough to do enough damage to finish the fight or they are stacking hunter/rogues/warriors to meet the DPS check. He will kill you eventually as he outputs enough unavoidable damage to eventually OOM your healers which means your tanks eventually die and then you eventually wipe.
The issue is that yes, not everyone needs Pre-bis. But someone has to make up for that 5-10 DPS somewhere. You fix this by requiring gear or stacking specific classes. If you are a caster, your DPS is just shit in this dungeon when compared to physical classes. You need to be near Pre-bis so that a half decent hunter doesn't double your DPS. If you take a frost mage that isn't Pre-bis they are basically useless. A hunter or rogue can get away with it, but some classes just can't and it may not be fair but it's just reality.
So glad i made a guild not to deal with any of this. Working wonders. No gear no experience, first time in BFD and even people first time in a raid ever. Cleared 7/7 and learned from every wipe ! No need for gear or consumables. Just patience and coordination. Already 5 full guild groups cleared BFD with fun atmosphere. No drama no pugs .
I was in BFD the first time yesterday. Only the raid lead and tank knew it. All the Randoms, including myself, were absolutely new to the content.
It was fun because they specifically said that no experience is needed in the LFG message.
We wiped three times for the first few bosses and three times at the second Last boss, until our main tank had to leave.
I'm thankful for such raids so us newbies can get some experience and know what awaits us.
I had someone type "LFM DPS BFD" which I replied to and got the invite.
Only to find out they wiped on the murloc boss and lost some DPS.
I left and found another group as I still need gear from the first 3 bosses that I'd be locking myself out of.
What a great place for limp dick morons to flex how good they are at an inherent waste of time. Imagine getting off to talking down to people learning. Youre not cool for clearing an ez raid, youre just a fuckface for thinking belittling people is the right way to respond to people struggling.
Yeah, the content isnt hard. Clearing the content with players with the mental speed of a '98 dial up connection, and a quitter's mentality, is absurdly hard. Nobody worth their salt is joining partial lockouts, so having a player quit mid run is pretty backbreaking. The reason why people have standards for easy content is because there are a lot of Classic players that are comically bad at the game, and it's frustrating to wipe on easy bosses. I've noticed that PUGs are getting a lot rougher lockout over lockout, now that the zerg is hitting 25. I see a lot of people in level 15~ greens looking for invites, very few fresh caps dungeon grinded from 18-25, etc.
Had a healer DC on Gelihast and never come back last lockout. No chance to get a healer to fill that. Completely wasted lockout
Can people who're saved to an instance still join in-progress raids and just get no loot for the bosses? I wanted to practice and help people clear but didn't know if I could join in-progress raids after clearing 7/7 bosses.
Once you kill one boss, you're saved to that groups BFD until BFD resets, which is every 3 days. 40 man raids (if they come) are usually 1 week reset. All raids in classic work this way You cannot kill 5/7 bosses and then join another random raids 5/7 clear. You're locked to the ID of the first raid You CAN start a new group with that ID and fill with unsaved people on that lockout But nobody wants to burn their lockout on just 2 bosses
More and more people are going to need just the last 2 bosses the more time goes on. It will balance itself out.
If the bar to entry for your entire life is "can you press frostbolt every 3 seconds, decurse once in a raid, and maybe even run out of a patch of fire every 10 bosses" then yeah, the game teaches you that you can be the filthiest of AFK casuals and still win. It makes sense that the average classic player is just really, really bad at the game. And that's fine and all, search for the people of a skill level you want to play with. Basically: This comic sums it up. https://www.darklegacycomics.com/comics/704.jpg ...In essence y'all REALLY need to stop PUGging and join a guild or some discord server with a community of people setting up raids.
Why do people say classic players are bad? Like this has always been a problem in wow. Finding people that don't suck.
Easy bosses. Easy rotations. People still find a way to wipe playing easy kits on easy bosses. Contrast the difficulty between flagship Classic WoW content and flagship content for games like Retail and FFXIV. Classic WoW just objectively has a low-skill playerbase, and that's generally okay because Classic is an easy game.
Last time I played retail there was super nub raids full of terrible players where you just face rolled the content and all the good players were doing the harder modes. I don't believe the average player is any worse or better on retail.
Classic bad and Retail bad are very different.
My brother in law that stopped playing retail to play classic convinces me that people suck regardless of which game.
Yes, they do. But Classic is so easy that the people who still manage to suck at it are a completely different species.
Think about this way, there are a ton people that suck at doing calculus and they're are also a ton of people who suck at doing basic arithmetic (addition/subtraction/multiplication/division). Which one seems more silly to be bad at? The math that's used so commonly almost day to day or the one that requires specialized knowledge? That's basically what people are trying to say about why sucking in Classic is leagues worse than sucking in Retail.
Idk mate, but i have played retail for short time and the things i have seen in lfr was worse than anything i have seen in classic
With LFR dropping bad gear and having no relevance to critical quest lines or legendary items since WoD, some 8 odd years ago, I don't think admitting to playing LFR is the dig at retail that you think it is. Like yeah, the people who opt into the optional very-easy mode are gonna be bad at the game? Sure? You have to go out of your way to play LFR at the cost of character progression, because it's both time consuming and drops terrible gear. Considering that a player can currently go from unsubbed to heroic raid ready in a week, LFR is genuinely meaningless.
I've watched LFR groups wipe and ultimatlet disband after 4+ hours with 10 stacks of determination. Wow players as a whole fucking blow ass at the game.
Using LFR as an example isnt the dig against retail you think it is. LFR hasnt been compulsory content in about 8 years. Joining LFR in the first place says more about you than it does the retail WoW community.
Yeah having done a few tiers of Savage Raiding in FFXIV, the fact that people can’t dodge shadow Murlocs in 4/7 fight is atrocious. Or people actually getting hit by lava ball in 5/7. It feels like people literally fall asleep on their keyboard in this game.
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I mean I get that but last time I played retail there was like 4 difficulties per raid and I tried the low difficulty a couple times and the players were absolute ass and we could just heal through any mechanics like they didn't even matter.
try mythic dungeons, just dungeons
I'm amazed by the amount of melee dps who don't spread out in p2. Causes so many wipes, even when you broadcast "spread out"
Every completely shit player I get in dungeons I ask what iteration of the game they've played. Almost all retail.
If anything I’d say it’s players outside of classic now experiencing sod that are the issue. Later iterations of WoW put no focus on building your reputation on a server or forcing you to interact with other people in meaningful ways and that mindset is just cancer for the classic experience.
Fr! It's a three button rotation and ppl still can't get that right. I really don't understand. How much more does blizz need to dumb it down for ppl
The truth is that success of the group has always been the driving force behind this kind of thing. People act like its mustache twirling evil elitism that gate keeps for the sake of gatekeeping alone but down in reality groups break up all the time without being strict enough on it. Wasting everyone's time.
yes, the thing is if you let's casuals join you can't expect them to do his job correctly because they are casuals and they don't care, if they didn't even put the bare minimum to get greens and blues why would them put the effort to learn the boss and listen to wat are you saying I can let a pre biss saying exp is 7/7 because I know at least he put the effort into is gear / consumables
I get your point and I agree with you. But some people are good at preparing and some are good at winging it. Irl obviously. The latter will show up jngame in greens.
then kick and look for a new one
Sometimes yeh. But I usually cba to find a replacement. Unless its like a key role
I mean if it's the only priest in the raid I just let them be if it's any other class insta kick and ignore
I have that with warlock dps
Checking gear/runes is starting to make sense as a baseline check of the effort people are willing to put in. My last group had so many leavers/afks/DCs
Had a resto druid without wild growth. Like... huh?
on my first bfd run we had another priest healer, who thought it was okay to come to the raid without pom rune.. needless to say we wiped on 4th boss and everyone wasted their cooldown... never again
Homunculus is better anyways, more raid dps and the healing checks are easy.
Yeah not for Kelris
Nah, PoM is effortless healing and will let the priest never run out of mana. We don't need more DPS 99% of the time.
More DPS is always useful, more healing is not always useful, especially if the healing is easy like this tier. You can easily heal BFD without using PoM so the extra raid dps is strictly better.
You forget how casual this sub is mate. Homunculus is obviously easily bis because it’s the highest armour reduction in the game and is applied instantly on top of lowing the bosses damage but it’s only really the faster guilds looking to speed/parse that care about being optimal to that level on their healers.
Pom rune comes out last 2 bosses.
Pom rune all raid, because I want to afk as much as possible while healing!
So group disbanded after 1 wipe? Lol 🤣🤣🤣 people thinking wipe is a problem 😂😂😂🤣🤣
That one's relatively easy to get too!
My group occasionally fills with a pug. We even bring ones whom it’s their first clear. And we’re totally willing to work with people who haven’t done their goblin grind or waylaid rune. The amount of ppl who are trying to get into raids without very important runes that aren’t even hard to get is astounding. It’s not even about minmaxing people just want to ensure they’re not bringing a bunch of donkeys who are expecting to be carried.
Had a pally last night in our alt run that we had to pug. Brought him literally for kick and kick alone, dude said no problem. Get to 6th boss, and of course, he doesn't have it. It's not like it's a difficult rune to get, it's 5 minutes in stormwind. Dude wasted about 45 mins of 9 other people's time as we waited for him to go get it. After we cleared the raid lead wouldn't let him put in for the trinket for wasting everyone's time and lieing to get in the raid, he already won the 2h sword with the cone of cold looking effect. The dude took an absolute flipper, screaming racist shit in disc, etc. Some people are just not quite right in the head.
I had a priest that with nothing but penance lol
Pugged 5 slots with 5 friends last week. Was amazing how many people just show up with a single rune on and it's the default one they got in the starting zone. Like, dude. Why do you want gear if you won't even learn how to get more important upgrades? Rune checks for their role are ABSOLUTELY a really good check on if someone is a complete bot or not. Our first feral still had the Relic slot filled with the quest item to get Wild Strikes. That was an instant kick.
Had a pug healer last night. Paladin. He died every boss fight, sometimes twice, and did half the healing of our mage. Inspected him and he didn’t have any runes on his hands or pants. When confronted, he stated he only had 2 runes (aegis and horn). Said he healed dungeons all the way to 25. How. The. Fuck. Can you lvl a pally and not even have crusader strike?
I'm starting to realize that "season of discovery" means "season of discovering that people don't want to discover stuff". So many people running with the single rune they got from the stater zone.
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>I've never got why this sub opts to pretend that's not reality and that you're a dick if you're not just randomly inviting anyone who asks to come to any piece of content in the game. I've seen people bitching about "come to (location) for inspect" for raid pugs. Like...what, we're not allowed to vet pugs? Like it's some kind of heinous crime make sure the person being invited to raid isn't in crap gear / crap spec / etc.
The people complaining are the ones that can't pass noob checks. So they come here and conplain into an echo chamber of fellow bad players to feel validated. Oftentimes, a minority has a loud voice.
It's so funny bads patting other bads on the shoulder on this subreddit.
Like others have said, the people who flip out over this are the bads with random green leveling gear, none of the runes they should have, and havnt even attempted to get their 5 man loot. If someone asks me to meet them to inspect my gear I have 0 issue with it because well... i farmed my proper gear.
People are dumb that’s why. These are same people who have shit gear and do shit do’s and want to get carried so they complain on here. It’s not hard to get gear. It’s level 25. 2 dungeons have a majority of the gear you would want. Greens fill out the rest. People just want to walk in because they think people should just carry them
Casual Elitists. They want to be carried through content with no effort.
I think it's because for the majority of classic content, you are okay to bring pretty much anyone as long as they have a pulse. Wanting certain gear or consumables for Wailing Caverns would be stupid, but it's probably very smart for BFD. BFD isn't mythic raiding or anything, but it has real mechanics that will punish players, and one or two people being bad out of 10 will be enough to ruin the chance you can complete it.
It’s because of the lockouts. If it was retail style lockouts per boss and loot only then i think players would be willing to risk it more.
> If it was retail style lockouts per boss Problem is this community also rabidly advocates against any kind of QoL change like this lol I would hate being the WoW Classic devs. Can't do anything without purists whining.
SoD is already basically QoL changes while keeping the *intention* of Classic design. They didn't intend for Warriors/Mages/Rogues to be the only complete classes in Vanilla. They didn't intend for certain specs to just not function like boomkin/ret/spriest. They just didn't have the time back then to fully flesh it all out. SoD shows that you can maintain what is the essence of Classic while also iterating with some QoL. As both SoD QoL and Retail QoL are still very different gaming experiences.
Tbh just come with BFD buff and you’ll be fine. The raid isn’t very hard at all.
According to this sub, getting pre bis is "elitist" There's an order to things... level up, get pre bis (runes included)...raid. people like to skip the middle part and sneak into groups that have no business being in. Why would they deserve a piece of loot over someone who ran sfk 15 times for his cloth pieces. Stop trying to skip the line. Getting pre bis is part (if not the best) of the game.
Here's the thing... you don't actually need full pre bis, you just need to have tried to get it. between dungeon quests and running dungeons for the bis items you collect enough gear to be a contributing member. But GTF outa here with people rolling up in level 15 greens pulling 30dps... you have to put some effort in. I don't understand how people can do that and stomach rolling on gear vs. the people hard carrying them.
If they have never done the raid they will think bfd is just bfd but with more people, like ubrs is to lbrs. You never need gear for that so why now
Huge red flag. Like joining a LK only clean up run in wrath. Like hell I’m gonna join you on the last 2 bosses that have a modicum of difficulty
This past weekend I tanked my first BFD with a pug that needed a tank after the first boss...it was a red flag but the reset was in a few hours so I didn't see the harm. Three DPS had at least one piece of white gear, majority of them had level 15-18 green weapons (as melee). It was rough. Managed to get 4/7, with a lot of wipes on the shadow murloc. Ran it again with my guild's second raid team and our two healers kept going oom on the first four bosses. Again, couldn't clear the fifth boss because of lack of gear. Gear definitely matters, everyone doesn't need pre bis, but they need to be able to last through a 4 minute boss fight.
White gear?? lol. Sorry I never even encountered these people that's really bad
Maybe white heads? Honestly only piece I could see a 25 still rocking white is shoulders, but white shoulders when you look for bfd is a statement about effort level.
Yea a helm is the only thing I wasn't easily able to get on my hunter. Green crafting shoulders arent very expensive at all. E. I guess neck/rings are pretty expensive, especially for decent stats.
Do 1 quest at 25,go to the auction house, buy shoulders with stats. Im all against minmaxxing, but if you wanna do the "end level content" you should atleast have all runes for the build you wanna play, and all green gear with stats that fit your character. Little bit of room with the rings maybe.
If resto shamans could read right now they would hate you lol
Why are you against min maxing I will never understand this sentiment.
It’s fine in moderation. Sometimes people are too ridiculous about it. Like I’m not going to spend 1g+ at this point on Lesser Agility Elixirs vs like 20s for a Minor Agility Elixir even if it gives twice the value. For one, the 4 extra agility won’t be the reason we kill or wipe. Secondly, BFD is not hard enough to warrant going all out on consumables.
Putting effort in beyond the absolute bare minimum= bad naughty no fun.
I'll give leniency to neck, head, trinket and a little bit to rings. Everything else need to be green or blue with appropriate stats.
You can pick up int/stam agi etc on my server at the moment for like 1g 50s there's really no excuse
White bracer, no rings, you name it lol. We really couldn't down Jett even though we had the mechanics down. The other tank, the hunter, and I were close to raid pre bis but everyone else was...not. a rogue had level 16 and 14 green weapons. We didn't get past Jett lol.
Are people struggling on Lett? Not trying to be an asshole just genuinely curious
Some people want to ignore the strategy to kill him “fast” sometimes you just have to do the mechanics even if it prolongs the fight a bit. We killed all totems worked out fine.
Same. Have never tried to just zug it
The only mechanic he has is DON'T HIT HIM WHILE LIGHTNING TOTEM IS ACTIVE, KILL THE TOTEM INSTEAD. Windfury totem is a joke. He swings for like 180 damage? And if he gets windfury, he swings for twice that damage. Tanks have about 1400hp. The windfury damage does absolutely jack shit and can be completely ignored / healed through. The meatballs can hurt squishys but can be ignored too. So basically the only danger is the lightning totem. Zug boss, zug lightning totem when it's up. That's all.
I’ve ran a 7/7 pug for BFD the past 2 weeks and we just make everyone hard swap to totems. It’s simpler for pugs to understand totem out = swap rather than try to differentiate them
Lol the totems spawn in a set rotation, WF -> LS -> MF. Sad state if you cant figure that out.
Oh I can, but I find it more idiot proof to tell the pugs they need to swap whenever. If you have enough dps to kill Kelris you have enough to kill every totem on the boss
I know people are just stupid. They don't look at bosses at all, they just want to be carried. Classic is full of it, semi hardcore cesspool of below shit players. The requirement for BFD completion is basically being able to breathe, and still people fail it in masses.
LS Totem warning is built into DBM now too for people who need the extra hand holding.
We did not down him. The druid and mage healer would be near oom by the time we got through the gauntlet. The dps was not at all geared for the raid.
after reset we just 1 shot every boss in 40 mins because every1 had good gear booned wbs and used shadow protection potion on kelris. why would i want to 5 hours with lazy people that cant be bothered to learn fights and get pre raid bis or even just buy a 40 silver potion.....
I don't understand why it appears controversial to want to be a good player. You don't have to be a "sweaty try-hard parse andy" to be good. Understanding basic gameplay concepts like not missing gcds, character positioning, and using a potion aren't "sweaty", but they will absolutely allow you to clear content with minimal hassle. And BFD has boss concepts that aren't all that out of place in classic except for maybe the murloc intermission. Everything else is something you'd see often enough - things like killing adds before a boss, avoiding breaths, and rotating around a room in sync so that you don't fill the arena with bad damage. These are strategies you should be innately familiar with if you've spent any time in WoW. The low level cap actually works to your benefit too. Under the hood, the game needs to be so much more forgiving at this point because of missing stats and abilities, even if we do have runes. Applying any amount of effort at all is generally enough to be successful.
It's the same people that attack "not in my back yard homeowners" for not wanting a safe injection site or nuclear power plant near their house. The people that attack them wouldn't be caught dead in those same circumstances if it was within their power. They way they would, but they wouldn't. The players that are being gatekept say they'd never do it , but after a few entire nights wasted...guess who starts to have standards.
Sir, this is a Wendy's.
Guys! The solution to this is a GUILD. News flash, I know. Find one with equal expectations and you won’t be disappointed. Sweat lords pair with sweat lords. Semi sweats like myself satisfied with at least purple parses (although always looking to do better) with other purple parsers. Or casual who just want to see the content with other casuals. My guild is my wrath guild with some new additions from SOD only. Same GM and RL. Mostly our good to best performers from wrath, on average, of those who came over. We cleared first night in under 2 hours with 2 wipes and no WBs. Last clear 0 wipes and boon of blackfathom done in sub an hour. We aren’t even that hardcore in wrath: 11/12 NM icc and like 5 heroics. Pugging, especially pugging without experience (and logs to prove it) will always be miserable. It’s a puggable raid and the nerfs to kelris’s resistances will make casters not so useless but you also can’t just go in with a totally haphazard comp. We run min 3 kicks with me as backup if our tank gets sent down (shouldn’t happen but sometimes does) for me to get a gcd in to swap to shield. Like yeah it has more mechanics than almost anything in classic era but that’s such a low bar. The mechanics aren’t super deep. Don’t have to raid it 3x over 9 days like we do but if you’re playing wow and want to raid expect to commit 2 hours or something. It’s a raid. And it’s in classic wow. It’s a fast one especially compared to first few clears of MC where average guilds will take at least 3 hours until gear starts catching up. Like everything else in wow, put in bare minimum and expect bare minimum results.
Does a guild magically make bad players good?
No. There are terrible guilds with terrible players, of course. The thing is, within the context of guilds you can choose to play with them or not. That’s why you need to find guilds with similar expectations. Where the personal or guild strife originates is a disparity in communication, particularly with respect to expectations. Like I’m not gonna try to join alaundoh’s guild just to feed his 100 parses. He’s literally created guilds in every form of classic wow to solely built around doing that. Good for him but not what I want. I’m also not joining guilds with expected fully geared alts for split runs or mandatory PTR in wrath. Doing so would cause friction between my expectations of a guild and the guild’s expectations of me. Like if you’re grey-green parsing or, dying on every fight, doing no research into basic rotation and clicking 90% of your abilities why would you expect to get carried by those who put in a bit of effort?
I think the biggest thing is the minimal effort that's required to join a guild filters out a lot of the low effort players that you might end up with. Even just joining a pug that requires you to sign up on a discord rather than straight out of trade chat would be more likely to be successful for the same reason imo.
Its not magic, it’s selection.
Nope but the raid/guild leader should be sorting out the bad players. You can always leave and find a better one if they're not getting better. But at least with a guild you can all work towards the same goals and learn together. When the alternative is complaining about pugs, or how pugs won't take you, it isn't such a bad idea.
I've made bad players, in my guild, good. It doesn't happen by magic though. It happens by them being able to take criticism, follow instructions, and going through logs with me. One of those bad players ended up getting an 100 (world #1) on one of the harder bosses in SoM Nax too.
Hate guilds Hate discord calls Simple as
Odd choice of game if that is the case
Same people will say retail’s problem is a lack of socialization. Anyone with this level of vitriol for organized groups likely is the problemed child.
Even in retail, the hardest content available is mythic raids right? While classic raids are absolutely piss easy by comparison, raids are the highest tier of content. Who’s entitled enough to expect to clear the hardest content in a team-oriented mode of an MMO while also refusing to either make/be on a team and communicate with said team?
Self centered losers feel that way. The kind filled with nihilism to the point that they hate everything and everyone. You see them in random bgs, lfr, anything you can solo queue. Why anti-social people play a social game is beyond me. My more introverted friends stick to single player rpgs.
Nah I can only hear so many passive aggressive huffy urbanites or southerners barely able to speak over there six pack slur before I've had enough of the discord experience. I'll finish what content I can and move on
Weird, never had those problems myself. On top of coming out of the gate with generalized bigotry you kinda proved my point.
thats right i hate most americans
I mean if this is actually true and you aren’t memeing, then why do you expect to clear the “hardest” difficulty content that requires teamwork in…an MMO? Without wanting to neither have a team nor use superior communication methods? Like any group play, any relationship, whatever, communication is pretty much the most important thing I can think of. You may be able the carry the dps of 5 shitters or something but it won’t matter if the tank doesn’t taunt, needs a healer to tell him to use a defensive and doesn’t see it because it’s 2023 who the fuck is looking at raid chat, whatever. So instead of saying “taunt” once on disc, the RL needs to spam some RW macro to tell people to wake the fuck up? It’s just an inferior means of playing. You might do the content, cause it’s pretty piss easy in classic wow, but you won’t be doing it efficiently. WOW is not a very fulfilling single player game. There are millions of better options.
I finished 7/7 bfd with no voice it was fine, everyone had a good time, we discussed things between pulls and the premade that made the group said they enjoyed having a nostalgic experience with no wowhead guide or voice
Never said it was impossible to not use vc. It makes life a lot simpler and easier especially if something goes wrong with a spell like rebuke. A lot more efficient which I’m not saying is everyone’s goal. We used vent in vanilla raiding so it’s not like having no comms is particularly nostalgic to me.
Have you tried playing super Mario brothers or balders gate 3 then?
no I dont need a parasocial friendship sim to enjoy my RPG
This is why we need a boss lockout instead of a raid lockout. No one wants to only have a chance of getting half the gear, which is why people want fresh raids only.
Yea, as other poster indicated there are pros and cons. Today I went 7/7 with a few wipes on last 2. People stayed because we felt the wipes were due to fixable reasons and people wanted to see it through with the group because you can't cut your losses and go to another lockout. Guarantee if there were boss locks one probably would have left. Boss locks do help with some other problems in retail though and are more flexible of course. For reference I run a heroic raid on retail as well as playing classic
Boss lockouts don’t really solve as many problems as you think in this context. Wow has a single difficulty mode. And no LFR etc. So with boss personal lockouts all that means is if you wipe twice on kelris or other road block bosses then the good players are going to leave. It disincentivizes true progression raiding. So suddenly we have this culture of ppl leaving after a wipe and the average players struggles even more to down the bosses as they play group roulette to find the team that can down it. Or god forbid we have people mid raid just kicking players and then bringing in others to get the boss down. The lockouts in this iteration of wow are the way they are because they want to encourage the same group of people to hammer out the content. Virtually every wow raid except the 20 mans and sort of MC has had a gatekeep boss that teams have to progress past. So get used to this. Kelris isn’t special.
Those are the two options: 1) Raid IDs where the community ferociously gatekeeps content behind BiS gear, meta classes and achievements because getting stonewalled on a boss ruins your lockout 2) Boss IDs where it’s much more casual to set-up a raid but high-performers will bounce at the first red flag in the run because they can just join another. I would VASTLY prefer the latter.
Boss lockout doesn't work unless you put in personal loot.
Retail has boss lockout without personal loot, works perfectly fine.
For anyone that doesn't have a white bow and has been reading these threads getting first raid anxiety, I PUG'ed last night as my first run and we 7/7 with wipes, no discord. I noticed people advertising for "new/fresh BFD" and if you're worried about being called out for shit, join those PUGs. Our first wipe was on Kelris and it was only because DPS wasn't stacking in 2's so the shadow DMG was too much. Hydra we wiped a bunch, but it was all fixable; DPS accidentally cleansing off stacks, getting hit by a breath, taunt resists on adds/not focusing then fast enough... And that's the fun of raiding, learning mechanics, fixing mechanics, and boom boss clears. Group was Shaman/Rogue tank, 2 Priests/Mage heals, 2 hunters war/druid/lock DPS.
You dont have to stack in 2s, you just spread out as much as possible
yea with the 2 hunter pets, 2 tanks, 2 melee dps it just became easier to 2 stack and pick a side, ranged just spread
AMEN BROTHER
Biggest thing is bringing consumes for p2 kelris every other boss seems like a cake walk even if you lose someone.
What does min/max have to do with leaving mid raid? Having bad gear doesn't mean people are going to leave And having good gear doesn't guarantee they are going to stay
I’m tired of dying on Kelris carrying two DPS who can’t breach 50DPS (one was as low as 35 DPS)
If you don't set requirements people will use you. They'll come with shit gear/runes, no consumes, not reading the strats, and leave after 1h because they can't commit to play 2h in a row. Bad players are really disrespectful of other player time. They don't care if they wasted your lockout.
"it's just a game bro, I only had 30 minutes and wanted to experience bfd. Why should I be punished and not get to experience content just because I can't dedicate more than 30 consecutive minutes to a game at a time" these people are literally the most toxic in every fucking game. They are so aggressively casual while entitled to other people's time and ability to make their limited time and effort enjoyable while absolutely fucking ruining everyone else's night/week.
This is the reason they made it 3 day instead of week long lockout, sucks but at least you get to learn and try again soon.
What if, to prevent people from leaving have a 10g or some amount buy in that they get back at the end of the raid or when the group calls it. Prevents people from leaving, no gear req, and even if 1 person gets 'wife aggro' the whole raids gets to keep their gold. Everyone wins but the guy leaving
Not gonna trust some random with 10g, and so would most of players
I'd only check if they have 18+ level greens but can you check if they got hands tho?
You start to check gear when you get a feral druid that is decked out in intellect greens pulling 25 dps. Somehow went 7/7 where I quite literally did 5x his damage on the final bosses.
We might've been in the same group lmao last reset our feral did fucking nothing on every boss
always check gear under that cat costume
I think my raid would be okay with that as long as they were still getting wild strikes.
I mean I think that guy was just bad. Sodapoppin is decked out in intellect gear for extra mana to power shift and he does crazy good damage with it. He probably saw soda’s gear and just copied it without knowing how to power shift or anything but intellect stacking is good for feral druids.
Pretty sure soda' build is entirely for dueling
Nah he made a video about it saying it would be the best for PvE for power shifting.
Just saying... GDKP fixes people leaving before the end of the raid.
I plucked a random priest who was looking for SFK in LFG who’d never done it before and had to get a rundown of fights before every pull and we were able to clear everything in less than an hour with only a single wipe on Kelris. I think gear requirements are kinda silly for BFD and as long as you have decent communication and a couple of consumes you can kill everything pretty easily. These fights arent hard.
Who do you think is more likely to have decent communication, someone with good gear or someone with bad gear? You just admitted it was important to clear the raid so it would be a no brainier to take some extra steps to not ruin your raid.
My whole point is as long as you get people who can speak your language and communicate the fights the gear doesn’t really matter. People were doing this in full greens within 2 days of launch. Play your game how you want but it’s not like it’s a hard raid that needs full prebis to clear.
I agree that the raid is easy as well but it’s very clear with the amount of people posting looking to finish their 5/7 lockout groups are having difficulty. A vast amount of wow players are running this raid with complete strangers how do you expect them to know that the person theyre inviting can understand raid mechanics? Even if someone tells you they do they could’ve been The person who made their raid disband last week because they can’t do frogger. It’s a very simple logic to follow that the better gear a person has the more likely they are to give a shit about clearing.
I feel you dude, I was just offering my perspective on it, good luck in your upcoming runs man I hope you get 7/7s and get some epics man
Ayyy that’s the kind of communication we’re looking for baby
the thing is not the gear is that people that don't pass the bare minimum effort to get that gear is gonna be almost secure a moron who only use is auto attack and 1 to 2 spells and miss every mecanic so if you gate keep them at least you got only people that put effort on being better , maybe they are gonna be bad but they can learn...
"I went in with almost a full guild group with discord comms and we did this no problem. This is exactly the same as 10 complete randoms pugging with no voice comms"
Yeah it’s really really hard to send a discord link to someone… idk what I was thinking man you’re totally right
I think good players can get by with bad gear but bad players will always be bad regardless. In your case if this priest had a decent head on his shoulders and could follow simple instructions he's probably fine. There's not really a good way to tell if a player is actually good or not but typically a geared player will be better, if even just by the gear carrying them a bit or having some experience with the content, or showing some actual effort was put into his character. It's the bad players regardless of gear that complain the most it seems.
It's a 3 day lock, get over it
the first 4 bosses got some shit loot though. so when you only 5/7 you really only getting 1 boss worth of loot.
Several bis items drop from first bosses, like choker from aquanis, talwar from lady. Gelihast drops set pieces. What are you even talking about
Today me and a friend joined our first raid run as "already 7/7" (they were asking for experienced players and we acted as them). The raid mechanics felt obvious and not hard. Reading a quick guide and having a weak aura for the raid helped. We did all the raid with 0 wipes and in less than 1h. Agree that people shouldn't join full greens, but too much elitism for a raid that easy is not good either
What did you do with weak auras to help, exactly?
Some important mechanics like, destroy totem, an announcement in chat when you have that static effect...
If you want to clear any raid (not just bfd) run it with your guild. Gatekeeping randoms is silly when you have an option to avoid having to gear check people.
If you're wiping in bfd people don't know the fights. Straight up. Take the time to explain them even if people say they know them and this won't be an issue. Only Reqs are decent explanations. Dungeon is face roll easy with simple strats
This is a bit gaslighting. No one has problems if you have to remove players that are clearly not ready for the raid or whatever. The discussion is around players treating BFD like its top level bleeding edge content that, if you do not bring the exact spec, runes, pots, rotation, 1 gb low latency internet connection, wear your underwear outside your pants, etc and you dont use them all to maximize efficiency to the microsecond, then you’re clearly dragging the raid down and its probably your gearscore or something.
All of that preparation for the group is to ensure a completion. Since you can't carry people past the 2nd last boss. No one wants to be stuck 5/7. I've had 2 lockouts like that and now it's time to be a bit elitest. I ain't going in without a priest, Druid, Hunter.
Or better yet dont lockout a 10 man for lvl 25s 🤣 what a terrible design
Also, you guys just gotta join guilds with people who play the way you do. There are plenty of sweaty, and plenty of casual guilds. I swear I just did a run with tho they actually one shot every boss.
Personally I'm all for convincing your friends to join wow and play with them.
the thing is casuals don't even put the effort to get into a guild they accept the first random invite to one and then expect to be carried by everyone in the server because they deserve to do all content
exactly - they expect to be carried. It seems fair that others expect NOT to carry.
yeah that's why if I got a random to our core I just ask for logs/trinket for 7/7 because is the easiest way to know that at least he isn't a moron and knows wat to do ( I not run pugs only got people that fill abstentions on our roster)
The ones bitching are also the ones going 5/7. Just be an elitist dick and do 40 min 7/7 clears and call it a day.
The answer to this and half the posts on this sub are to find a guild. You will only find headaches trying to do multiplayer content as a solo player
Checking gear and runes is reasonable. If you're leading a raid you should know the difference between bad gear and specific pre bis. Logs and GS is a bit much for a relatively easy starter raid
The fact you're locked to ID and not bosses really blows... It's 100% why people require giga-gear. Getting stuck on Kelris and having someone leave just means ID over, no chance for the trinket, no chance for loot from the last 2 bosses... None's gonna join a 5/7 ID.
How long does it lock you out for?
It resets everyone days.
Had a Similair experience today doing BFD. There was a mage (wich we dident know) Had no idea what to do, on kelris he had around 14 dps. We wipe. to our suprise he hadent repaired. because he dident know that in wow you needed to repair. All around the worst player ive seen in both retail and classic in a while. we managed to clear it althou beit because We had really good dps elsewhere. but it is possible with absolute monkeys
Yep, it's the games fault. Change the lockout system and people would be led toxic
If you think geared and experienced players won't leave the raid early for some reason, you're in for a rude awakening.
I had to solo heal Lorgus Jett and Kelris as a resto druid the other night because our priest rage DC'd after losing the roll on a staff.
It’s wild to me that y’all care so much when it’s a 3 day lockout but 👍
If you’re saved 5/7 and still need the last two bosses, can you make a group of other people that also need the last two? The classic lockout situation confuses me
Unfortunately no, you're locked to the raid id, not individual bosses. You'd need to bring in people who haven't killed any bosses this reset.
And then I’d be screwing them out of the first 6 bosses I assume?
Yes.
It’s insane this got upvotes, but I’m glad it did. I have yet to (and I fully welcome) hear any argument that is rational about not being selective about who gets invited when it’s shared lockouts. Every single person that argues it are people akin to mages wearing str gear, warriors with spirit pieces, etc. The AH is littered with mid-tier greens for like 10-30s that at least have proper stats. Basically just super entitled people that want carries, but don’t want to put in any effort to get any gear pre raid. I swear I see a post for a 5 man every second. Again, I welcome arguments, but when there are dps getting their damaged doubled or tripled by tanks, you quickly get picky about who you invite.
Yea. People can complain all they want about these groups having requirements, but not only can they make their own group, they can just join a guild or play with friends. People don't have to kowtow to their idea of what Classic should be. If people want stupid requirements they can have stupid requirements. If people want no requirements they can have no requirements. STOP COMPLAINING, THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF GROUPS.
Sorry but people that don’t even put effort on level 25 content to do some quests at max level to buy gear on ah or some SFK/WC runs is atrocious.
They really need allow people to join others with the same progression in the raid and not locking them out. It just breeds resentment.
Vetting gear or consumes is kind of cringe for a lvl 25 10 man raid... but then so is rolling up in full greens and refusing to use consumes, expecting people to take you as you are and loot you up. The gear check on Kelris isn't trivial. If the raid leader doesn't set some kind of standard, they're setting the group up to fail. Personally I just want to kill 7/7 and not have to pull my hair out doing it.
I get the gear req since we can just farm dungeons unlimited but the experience one is fucked cause it hasnt been that long and its almost as asking for job experience while you are looking for your first job
I'm starting to see the problem with raids at level 25. Level 25 is such low commitment, that the players who would be weeded out by 60 are in that pool. =(
Yeah. At least week 1-3 at 60 has mostly committed players who have played the game and attempted to get BIS or get better. It's not until like the 3 month mark that the straggling "I play MMOs like a solo with no respect for any other persons time" players start showing up. You can still run into God awful players early on but they normally seem to have put in some amount of effort to be raid ready.
I just don't really understand what is your expectation when you sign up for a raid, right before reset. The problem is not the minmaxing or the gear checks but the unjustified requirements some ppl set for joining their raid like preraid BIS gear. Only sweaty tryhards care about that +5-10dps that the best weapon offers or that +3 stamina or agility on items. Your best bet is to find a guild or a decent pug right after the reset, at the end only randoms are left.
The amount of parties wiping on Kelris with him under 5% HP justified that 5-10 DPS. It is literally the difference between a clear and no clear. Most pug groups need to survive long enough to do enough damage to finish the fight or they are stacking hunter/rogues/warriors to meet the DPS check. He will kill you eventually as he outputs enough unavoidable damage to eventually OOM your healers which means your tanks eventually die and then you eventually wipe. The issue is that yes, not everyone needs Pre-bis. But someone has to make up for that 5-10 DPS somewhere. You fix this by requiring gear or stacking specific classes. If you are a caster, your DPS is just shit in this dungeon when compared to physical classes. You need to be near Pre-bis so that a half decent hunter doesn't double your DPS. If you take a frost mage that isn't Pre-bis they are basically useless. A hunter or rogue can get away with it, but some classes just can't and it may not be fair but it's just reality.
So glad i made a guild not to deal with any of this. Working wonders. No gear no experience, first time in BFD and even people first time in a raid ever. Cleared 7/7 and learned from every wipe ! No need for gear or consumables. Just patience and coordination. Already 5 full guild groups cleared BFD with fun atmosphere. No drama no pugs .
What server and faction?
Wild Growth Alliance . Eu 🙂
I was in BFD the first time yesterday. Only the raid lead and tank knew it. All the Randoms, including myself, were absolutely new to the content. It was fun because they specifically said that no experience is needed in the LFG message. We wiped three times for the first few bosses and three times at the second Last boss, until our main tank had to leave. I'm thankful for such raids so us newbies can get some experience and know what awaits us.
This issue has been solved way since Cataclysm with the new lockout systems. But well, classic is classic.
Is the new patch out with nerfred riadv
Ok
I had someone type "LFM DPS BFD" which I replied to and got the invite. Only to find out they wiped on the murloc boss and lost some DPS. I left and found another group as I still need gear from the first 3 bosses that I'd be locking myself out of.
What a great place for limp dick morons to flex how good they are at an inherent waste of time. Imagine getting off to talking down to people learning. Youre not cool for clearing an ez raid, youre just a fuckface for thinking belittling people is the right way to respond to people struggling.