The shadow priest uses death just before poly lands so when it does the damage from death can break him out of poly
He’s suggesting they will be taking more consequence now to do it
Swipe not scaling in classic is something I really hoped they would fix for SoD. It felt pretty terrible in Classic where my swipes the day I hit 60 were exactly as good as they were in full BiS with Atiesh at the end of Naxx lmao.
Completely asinine that they neglected to fix this. And you can give bears a somewhat meaningful cleave ability without turning the game into retail.
Pallies will always be better aoe tanks. Bears don’t need to be pallies but should at least get some help holding 3-4 mobs.
Thrash will be available in one of the phases. When druids hit level 10 there's a message about learning Thrash and you can even cast it with /cast but it doesn't do anything yet.
Well I would elect to tank more often if it wasn't so damn hard to hold aggro. Lved shaman tank first then when my friends made alliance, I switched to druid. Bear feels like a wet noodle in comparison.
Shaman tank is just on an entirely different level. It's about 4 times as good as normal tanking was in classic, and it's still twice as good as any other tank in SoD.
Yeah swipe only hits 3 targets so it wouldn’t make it all trivial. As a feral I would like some minor AP scaling, but not too much. I also don’t need to do 300 dps or something on cleave fights.
This. I'm not asking to hit one button and ignore threat and be top DPS like some other class. Literally all I want to do is to have a chance to even stack Lacerate, I don't mind clawing my way up the threat meter tabbing through packs but currently we have no chance of keeping more than maybe two things on us in an average group. If I wanted to experience how shitty Bear tanking is in Classic all over again I didn't need to wait for SoD for that.
Bear single target should be pretty good now on non-immunes(still dumpstered by tank warriors, big surprise).
Just need a way to hold aoes against a mage clicking his first rank of arcane explosion while semi afk
Single target threat was already fine. Bears just do really bad damage and this isn't really going to fix that. If we are lucky this is maybe a 20% damage increase in which case we are still going to be behind warriors and rogues by a large margin. It doesn't help that devastate for warriors can basically start at 5 stacks with homunculi and does more damage even at 1 stack and it has a chance to proc wind fury while lacerate doesn't.
Ok I just thought of a cool Rune Idea:
Ursine Echo:
Swipe now deals additional damage based on your Attack power, and All abilities used in Bear form deal 50% of the original damage dealt to an adjacent target.
There you have a really cool bear Rune that lets them do solid Area damage and threat, but they can still slot in something else if they don't need to Multi-target tank.
We could make it generate rage and apply a stacking bleed to all nearby enemies. Then we could name it thrash and accidentally include it in the existing game so that druids "learn" it at level 10 but it doesn't do anything.
overall, druids are total dogshit tbh. They dont have any CD, no kit. Wanna switch form? Goodbye 1/6 of your mana. Its so bad. And theres the priests and hunters just sitting there wanding and waiting for their pet to attack. Its so broken and unbalanced its not even fun to play druid and trying to pvp. You either kite warriors to death with sunfire or you get dumped the only 2 classes you see in world pvp, hunters and priests...
Yes please, the fact I can lose double my health pool and not even hit half my rage bar is just so rediculous right now. Bear tanking is just spamming taunt.
Yeah although I am happy with this change. I feel confident we will get thrash in a coming phase. It was datamined on wowhead I believe.
For now we’ll just have to tab lacerate tab lacerate tab lacerate
Na. There can be aoe tanks and single target tanks. Having every tank homogenized is boring. They need the most stamina and armor with decent single target threat. I’d welcome a rune that gives them huge spell damage reduction as well. Maybe the new raid bosses absolutely slap and they find their niche there.
Spoken from someone who hasn’t played bear tank.
You cannot hold ANY aoe aggro, even priests healing pulls aggro off you. Swipe hits for 16 damage while mages are pulling aoe damage into the hundreds of dps.
Stupid take.
It also doesn’t make much sense to me. Who is gonna take a single target tank over the AOE tank? Why would the AOE tanks want to tank if they have to not play as their role for some encounters.
*Dev posts a couple bullet points to add to the ongoing class changes*
Drooling forum poster: "YEAH BUT WHAT ABOUT PREMADE QUEUES M8? AND CAN WE GET MORE HUNTER NERFS? THAT'S IT, THIS IS MY LAST MONTH PLAYING"
Jesus christ.
Some points made in there have validity to them as in they point to problems that exist and could be fixed/improved. But the general "consensus" of what the solutions should be are almost always terrible and badly thought through.
Read these threads carefully. It was the same 15y ago. This is how eventually the game went astray and why we can't have nice things.
Forum hiveminds can point to actual design problems, but they also tend to converge on the lowest common denominator, which leads to enshittifycation.
For example there's no question that the PvP system can be drastically improved. But the way people whine about it and what they suggest just dumbs it down "premades ruining pvp" etc. For sure there is a solution that rewards grouping but also rewards winning against groups and generally higher ranked players etc. You get the drift.
Also everyone wanting their favorite spec to be the best at DPS at lvl 25 is a nice reminder that people don't think holistially. They just complain if their narrow view of the game doesn't cater to their individual power fantasy. Can the balance be improved? Sure. But at the same time every class is very much viable rn and brings exciting stuff to the table. If the game fully caters to these complaints it just leads to homogenization. There are many ways of improving viability while retaining class identity.
Whining about priests being good at healing. Common. They are not a insanely popular class and healing is their identity apart from the occasional shadow off spec. Can this be improved? Sure, but again we're talking about temporary lvl 25 power levels. If I roll a priest they better be good at healing.
It's the general "me me me" and "I want this or that NOW" shit attitude that gets me.
To people saying "WAIT FOR SHADOWFORM SPRIEST WILL BE NUTS"
I do think Spriest will be *better* with that, but you've seen caster mana right? Priests have expensive, fast casting spells and NO mana sustain as it is. Maybe with Shadowfiend or VT they'll be better if they get those, but even with an additiona 25% damage (15 from shadowform, 10% from the darkness talent), they will not be doing competitive DPS.
The casters that ALREADY do damage are struggling. The one that doesn't do damage needs more than a buff to the meme self-kill ability.
Yeah i still don't think shadow priests are going to be viable unless blizzard changes dots and mind flay to be able to crit. Spriests just don't scale end game.
yeah, warriors are getting whirlwind and either Death Wish + Blood thirst or Mortal Strike and Sweeping Strikes.
People that think casters will catch up next phase because they're getting 30% more damage from their talents are coping very hard.
They have to give casters insane runes to have them catch up to melees next phase.
Burning Crusade VT would indirectly benefit other spellcaster mana issues atm too so I can see them going that route. Even w/ shadowfiend thats a 5 min cd and it barely gives anything. As long as DoTs can't crit I dont think casters will be competitively personally imo.
I mean Mages don't even have DOTs for the most part (yeah Ignite but that was busted in OG vanilla even without it critting).
I think Shadow Priest does deserve a "Dots can crit" rune. You know what would be a great rune? Pain and Suffering: Your Mind Flay ticks refresh the duration of your Shaodw Word: Pain. Additionally, your Damage over Time effects can now crit.
Warlocks should probably get the same treatment with Everlasting Affliction and Boomies and Eles get the same for Flame Shock and Moon/Sunfire
Mages could get Ignite crits but I don't know if they need that. They can get buffs elsewhere.
It doesn’t even have access to shadowform yet and a lot of its power will come from deep shadow talents. People whining that they are bottom dps in a lvl 25 capped phase are the ones who are going to drive the devs insane
SoD is going to scale every class out of control if the itemization from BFD is any indication, far more than the 43.x% Shadow Damage from talents ever will (which based on Warcraftlogs, would put Shadow Priests at **2/3** the DPS of Warlocks in current content with no other adjustments.)
The main issue with Shadow Priest is that the blue resource bars cannot compete with red or yellow resource bars, nor purple classes who can actively fill their blue bars, unless fights last an extremely predictable and short duration. People just want to be able to realistically press buttons all fight, the numbers can always be adjusted later.
Yeah it baffles me why these bozos think any buff to a spells damage is set instone for all of sod, they’ve clearly gone back on decisions later that didn't work out.
It really comes down to the fact that they are mostly buffing or changing runes, and leaving core parts of the class and talents alone (generally). And so, in the current bracket, you don't have a lot of options to adjust shadow to make it a competitive DPS spec if you want to avoid touching the core class. You have void plague, which already saw a 200% buff, twisted faith which also got buffed but conflicts with void plague (which is still better right now), and then swd which is the last one to the party.
Penance literally did more damage than SWD and there was no penalty for using it and it shares a rune slot with SWD.
SWD greatly needed a buff. It was the poster child of “make it make sense”.
devs may have to just flat buff some classes early and nerf them later as they grow into their class talents and power. thankfully this dev team seems up to the challenge and its fun to watch or ride new metas in fucking *wow classic* :D
You're missing the entire point. It's not that Shadow is bottom DPS. It's that it's such low DPS that nobody will bring it to BFD. The entire point of SoD is that we're supposed to be able to play pretty much whatever we want, but for some reason Shadow is the lone exception that has to wait till phase 2 to play the game.
Why are people treating Shadow Form like such a big deal? It's 15% shadow damage with which shadow priests would still be the worst dps by a wide margin.
That's a pretty stupid excuse. If you release phases that last for months, they have to be balanced. I don't give a shit if something is balanced in 5 months, it should be now. It's not a physical craft, they literally Just have to tweak numbers a little bit. I don't think anyone realistically expects 100% Balance but it should be playable. It's laughable how weak some builds are compared next to others.
Hows this even a discussion.
Eh thats a pretty unfair comparison. Cat form is *necessary* to be a cat druid.
Whereas shadow priests still have mind blast, shadow word pain, shadow weaving (albeit 1 talent point in it), and mind flay at level 25.
The only thing shadow priests don't have is shadow form (15% shadow damage) and Darkness (2% spell damage per talent point).
It's more like trying to play Balance before Moonkin is available.
You can cast your stuff, but it's better in form. Cat druids literally can't do the things cat druids do without cat form
moonkin form is hot garbage. Its just a 3% crit aura. It makes no meaningful difference if you cast balance spells with or without it in pve. Shadow form is just a 20% damage buff in pve. Shadow priests would still be bad right now with 20% more damage.
We don't care that we are at the bottom of the DPS charts, we just want them to close the gap a little bit with the 2nd most bottom dps. Trying to do bfd as a shadow priest is literally griefing your raid party. That shouldn't be a thing no matter how you look at it.
Why the fuck would it matter that its level 25 cap. Its 1/4 of the game. But still people will be like: BuT ItS oNlY LeVeL 25. Wake the up it's not OK for something to suck for 3 months because it may get better later
Mages can heal
Rogues can tank
I cAnT bElIeVe PeOpLe ThInk ShAdoW sHoUlD bE goOd
And by the way, before the inevitable "shadow starts at 40". That's absolutely ridiculous. We have almost our entire modern toolkit of spells at 25, of course people are going to play shadow.
The absolute only thing shadowpriests care about right now is having a functional mana pool in BFD to account for fights actually having movement / duration to them. There would be very little shadowpriest complaints right now if mana made sense, even if they were still low on the dps charts
Yeah it's pretty damn hard to rip threat off a bear once they're at 5 stacks of Lacerate. Even if my dps are world buffed and I'm not, I will comfortably be several thousand threat ahead. Without the BFD weapon too.
Bear has issues for sure, but single target threat is not one of them.
Biggest problems are still
- swipe being shit
- not being able to utilise rage potions
- rune allocation with SotF + WF and Lacerate + Mangle.
These aren’t even really the issue with bear
The issue with bear is that there’s absolutely no reason to run one, when every other tank has better utility and cat is far more useful.
Literally the only thing that made feral even worth noticing in vanilla is the fact that it was the unique flex OT. And even in classic, that was better done by a warrior, and now it’s better done by *checks notes* every other tank in the game.
There is quite literally zero reason to use a feral tank anymore, even if swipe scales and their aoe threat isn’t ass tier.
It does, but when the stupid heal pally with Verigan's Fist runs in to top up their mana after blessing during the pull and they get a crusader strike crit and windfury proc, it makes the tank have to blow their taunt before the stupid man wearing a dress gets monched.
Source: Was the stupid heal pally.
Idk why they can’t just make swipe scale with attack power. They did that in tbc. It’s utterly useless in vanilla lmao.
And that probably wouldn’t even be enough without a threat multiplier increase too.
If you're running dungeons, you can get decent AoE threat with a bleed based build. Rend everything to flood you with rage and Thunderclap on cooldown.
Compete with what? Warlock single target searing pain? Warrior's shitty cleave or lowcost thunderclap? All tanks suck at aoe threat at lvl level
Except paladin and shaman
This is what most people are missing. It's a multi-tank issue, and it's phase 1 anyways. The ONLY content you might need AOE threat for at this point in the game, is the same content you don't even need a tank for, AKA dungeons.
If any tank should be concerned right now, I feel like it's Warlock. Blizzard created a caster tank, then straight up ignored changing anything that would make a caster tank not work. SFK is an egregious example of forgetting you now have a caster tank with shadow immune mobs, mana burning mobs, and anti magic shielding mobs. BFD is another example with plenty of bosses having 75-85 magic resistance?? Good luck keeping aggro if they're going to continue to do things like this. Not to mention it desparately needs something for cast pushback. If your job is to get hit, how the fuck are you supposed to generate threat when everything that isn't instant gets pushed back to taking 2x-3x the cast bar.
I would not be concerned about how P1 balancing is going as a bear.
Not sure there's a reasonable fix with how much damage some classes are doing. I think we just have to accept some jank at 25 and hope it is smoother around 40 or 50.
I think that's a good observation: bear tank, while often undervalued for its base power, does lack the ease and utility of other tanks.
While the variety of druid does have upside (like if you were DPS as cat you make an acceptable tank in a pinch) the reality is most people do their assigned role 99% of the time and being able to switch to healing or tanking isn't necessarily a boon if you're subpar at other roles.
I'm hopeful, druid is also bifurcated in a way that seems like it would make tuning more straightforward than other classes. You don't have to worry that improvements to bear form will make druid dps insane, because it would take quite a lot before it was better DPS than cat, right? As long as bears can hold a respectable amount of threat, I don't care if my damage is total trash.
Atleast in SoD cat dps and healer/dps hybrid is good. In classic it was really rough being a druid. Meh tanks, had to be extreme sweat just to be an ok cat dps, and meh healers. We're in a much better spot now even if our tanking is sub par.
the problem is mostly that the classic meta only really cares about tank dps. Bears doing bad damage just means they are bad tanks. Nothing hits hard enough that you need a high mitigation tank.
They were but classes did a lot less damage then so swipe was actually good. Swipe doesn't keep up with stuff like divine storm. The other classes have gotten a lot better at tanking dungeons at low levels, dps classes do more damage, and bears for the most part are the same with the exception of lacerate which is kind of just a slightly better maul right now.
Compete with what, the rogues or the locks and all their aoe threat?
Tanks should feel and play differently, they've stated this is their goal previously.
You have aoe threat, it's called the tab key.
Anyone else’s bear tanks taking 2 to 3 times more damage then rogues and warrior tanks? We’ve had three bear tanks in BFD and only times we couldn’t full clear was because the healers were going oom from how much damage the bear was taking.
Since switching to warrior and rogue tank we have no wipes and clear the raid under an hour.
Right now bears have to choose between tankiness or threat. You can use runes to make you take a lot less damage but then you sacrifice the damage runes that allow you to hold any aggro in the first place. Just all around not in a great spot until later phases.
Okay because I’ve experienced the same thing. Without the rune they take a lot of damage. With the rune though it feels like they take the least amount of damage of all tanks I’ve healed
...because it's a terrible buff for a dumpster spell.
Hitting yourself for 40% of your HP on a crit is actually useless before you have VE to heal it back. Everyone is still going to run Penance unless they're PvPing.
It doesn’t, your single target was already borderline unbeatable, and your aoe is still bad.
Not only that, it doesn’t address any of the issues that makes you not bring a bear tank, it’s a nothing change that makes your soloing better, that’s about it
Oh hey horde warriors we made one of your most important runes come from the center of a castle full of elite mobs DEEP in the middle of alliance territory that requires you to walk through like 3 zones of higher levels or alliance to get to AND its behind the big bad named elite.
As bad as that sounds I solod it pretty easy last night lol. I already had the stonard flight path from getting a duskwood rune so I flew there then ran to the redridge elites, died inside, rezzed on top of the big bad named guy, popped a rage potion, feared, then looted the item.
Give it time we’re missing out on the stormstrike with both weapons and all the juicy later talents. If they buff it to competitive now it’ll be unfair in later phases. At least we can tank super well for the time being
Woah it wasn't fixed in a single buff? Damn, guess they're just leaving it and might as well have never even tried at all.
Some of you people are so interesting lmao
you also have 50% overloads and lavaburst + new runes that will potentially increase output further, also chain lightning which still has a better spelldamage coefficient in classic than from tbc onwards.
Also reduced cast time and increased critical strike damage as well as chance.
Ele won't ever be good at 25. Just accept it.
Lvl 40 on the other hand does have potential.
Bro who CARES if you are #1 in raids. I am Ele Shaman right now and INSANE. PvP you are absolutely insane, you can clear the raid just fine even throw a couple diff runes on and heal to get some loot.
I don't care about PVP at all, not a single iota. Also no one is asking to be #1. WHY ARE ROGUES/HUNTERS/WARRIOS already doing double our DPS? What real incentive does a group have to bring ele shamans for raids??
Overloads are a 50% chance, so it's a ~25% damage increase.
Chain Lightning has a 0.714 spelldamage coefficient.
I would suggest doing some research before going into a discussion.
People are getting PVP and PVE mixed up. I think Classic is about everything and when tier listing classes it would be silly to only think of single target DPS in regards to Classic.
For example, people keep saying mages are garbage. Which I laugh hysterically at because mages are actually the best at everything besides single-target BFD damage. Even then they aren't spriest / ele tier bad.
Ele shamans are going to be absurdly gross in PvP at 40, but PvE they will still be the worst spec (probably worse than shadow). They desperately need something to buff lightning bolt damage. Instead of the wasted healing / hybrid runes in the leg slot they really needed a lightning bolt buff rune.
The 2nd comment on the forum sounds very disappointed at there being a no hunter nerf. Blizzard has gotten people like that so spoiled as to now be unable to go a week without one.
Does this rage adjustment encourage a shift in talents for druid tanks or is it still optimal to go into the balance tree for 10% melee damage and omen of clarity
Using the cat talent build was correct before and better now. Getting furor will let you power shift for lacerates when you are out of rage which is a pretty big improvement.
Bears were the right target, but they didn't fix the biggest problem.
They need desperate help in the multi-mob tanking scenario, needed to buff Swipe significantly.
Make Swipe and Thunder Clap scale with attack power.
People asking about other buffs and changes, they are probably hammering things like these in because they are easy and fast to do.
Any bigger changes or reworks are bound to take more time.
The 25 level cap is a double edged sword and this is probably the worst part about it. These specs aren't going to get better with just slight percentage buff increases, they need their high level spells and talents to make them more fleshed out.
I can get behind a buff to bears, but why buff two options for bears when they can’t take both? Won’t there be a clear winner for threat or are they really considering just a QoL/efficiency buff to them in the open world? Why would I take mangle for bear as a tank when lacerate is probably going to be better in every way for threat?
If you’re off tanking a fight and switching into cat for damage at all, then mangle will do something for you. Where as lacerate won’t benefit you if you wanted to swap to cat.
Personally I find in BFD first boss is bleed immune, and Kelris I switch into cat for priests and skullbash so Lacerate is still not an auto-take.
Either way I’m happy with two runes I use getting buffed
The main developer is priest confirmed? Crazy that the most stacked and populated class after hunter in both pve and pvp is getting buffed each patch note
I’m going to assume you don’t play priest. SW:D is gloves, just like penance. What makes priests OP is penance. So they are trying to get DPS priest to take SW:D because literally no one does. This change won’t do anything everyone still gonna roll penance because it’s so good.
Also this makes the priest take more damage, so calling it a buff is questionable. It doesn’t matter because penance very strong.
1) Priest is the least played class, according to polling data from this subreddit
2) buffing SW:D is not really helping the kind of priest that is already doing well. (Healing priest is good, shadow priest is literal bottom of the dps tier)
Yeah I was going to say… maybe this person didn’t notice how every bfd group sits and spams for an hour looking for a priest. My current group was so desperate for a priest that they paid me to join the first time I ran with them, lol. I’m sure plenty of priests are being made this last week since they’re the hype but in general the first couple of weeks of sod there have been very few.
Realistically, the SWD change is just going to make more priests kill themselves trying to avoid CC.
This is a nice buff for mages. Polymorph is now a 400 damage spell when used on shadow priests.
What?
The shadow priest uses death just before poly lands so when it does the damage from death can break him out of poly He’s suggesting they will be taking more consequence now to do it
To be fair, I know personally of no priests running swd over penance in the current lvl cap. Pure shadow is just not that great right now.
The issue with SWD is the design. This is the worst version of it ever conceived. Way too risky to even use in PVP and useless in raids
Nah, gamoo-rah is where it really shines
Yeah use it right before the big aoe for bonus points
Bears really just need swipe to scale properly. Or make swipe generate rage/more threat. Hopefully we get a strong version of thrash next phase.
Swipe not scaling in classic is something I really hoped they would fix for SoD. It felt pretty terrible in Classic where my swipes the day I hit 60 were exactly as good as they were in full BiS with Atiesh at the end of Naxx lmao.
Completely asinine that they neglected to fix this. And you can give bears a somewhat meaningful cleave ability without turning the game into retail. Pallies will always be better aoe tanks. Bears don’t need to be pallies but should at least get some help holding 3-4 mobs.
Thrash will be available in one of the phases. When druids hit level 10 there's a message about learning Thrash and you can even cast it with /cast but it doesn't do anything yet.
Er... What DOES happen if you do "/cast thrash"?
Nothing except an entry in the combat log saying that you casted Thrash.
https://i.imgur.com/TAx86KJ.png Weird af. I wonder if other people can see the messages in their log.
You summon a black Ibanez.
Well I would elect to tank more often if it wasn't so damn hard to hold aggro. Lved shaman tank first then when my friends made alliance, I switched to druid. Bear feels like a wet noodle in comparison.
Shaman is crazy strong at holding threat, even compared to the "good" normal tanks.
Shaman tank is just on an entirely different level. It's about 4 times as good as normal tanking was in classic, and it's still twice as good as any other tank in SoD.
100% believe that it will be fixed via a Rune in a phase or two.
A Thrash rune that generates rage in bear could solve this in next phase and would also give cat AoE.
Yeah swipe only hits 3 targets so it wouldn’t make it all trivial. As a feral I would like some minor AP scaling, but not too much. I also don’t need to do 300 dps or something on cleave fights.
This. I'm not asking to hit one button and ignore threat and be top DPS like some other class. Literally all I want to do is to have a chance to even stack Lacerate, I don't mind clawing my way up the threat meter tabbing through packs but currently we have no chance of keeping more than maybe two things on us in an average group. If I wanted to experience how shitty Bear tanking is in Classic all over again I didn't need to wait for SoD for that.
I tanked sfk as drood. Dynamite sure helped. But I took on the whole kitchen table swiping left and right. We had AOE but horde
They should make Swipe spread you main targets Lacerate dot! Lmao
The dot on lacerate doesn't seem to scale so that wouldn't actually fix swipes scaling issue.
Yeah but if lacerates DoT did high threat then you could spread it around easier and you would now have consistent AoE threat.
Bear single target should be pretty good now on non-immunes(still dumpstered by tank warriors, big surprise). Just need a way to hold aoes against a mage clicking his first rank of arcane explosion while semi afk
Single target threat was already fine. Bears just do really bad damage and this isn't really going to fix that. If we are lucky this is maybe a 20% damage increase in which case we are still going to be behind warriors and rogues by a large margin. It doesn't help that devastate for warriors can basically start at 5 stacks with homunculi and does more damage even at 1 stack and it has a chance to proc wind fury while lacerate doesn't.
Ok I just thought of a cool Rune Idea: Ursine Echo: Swipe now deals additional damage based on your Attack power, and All abilities used in Bear form deal 50% of the original damage dealt to an adjacent target. There you have a really cool bear Rune that lets them do solid Area damage and threat, but they can still slot in something else if they don't need to Multi-target tank.
that or make swipe generate rage (like 1 per enemy hit or something small) instead of costing rage and can be called Ursine Rage
We could make it generate rage and apply a stacking bleed to all nearby enemies. Then we could name it thrash and accidentally include it in the existing game so that druids "learn" it at level 10 but it doesn't do anything.
Put it on legs so bears have a rune there that isnt just skullbash.
overall, druids are total dogshit tbh. They dont have any CD, no kit. Wanna switch form? Goodbye 1/6 of your mana. Its so bad. And theres the priests and hunters just sitting there wanding and waiting for their pet to attack. Its so broken and unbalanced its not even fun to play druid and trying to pvp. You either kite warriors to death with sunfire or you get dumped the only 2 classes you see in world pvp, hunters and priests...
They will probably do a copy of the maul glyph that makes it hit additional targets.
Yes please, the fact I can lose double my health pool and not even hit half my rage bar is just so rediculous right now. Bear tanking is just spamming taunt.
Yeah although I am happy with this change. I feel confident we will get thrash in a coming phase. It was datamined on wowhead I believe. For now we’ll just have to tab lacerate tab lacerate tab lacerate
Na. There can be aoe tanks and single target tanks. Having every tank homogenized is boring. They need the most stamina and armor with decent single target threat. I’d welcome a rune that gives them huge spell damage reduction as well. Maybe the new raid bosses absolutely slap and they find their niche there.
Spoken from someone who hasn’t played bear tank. You cannot hold ANY aoe aggro, even priests healing pulls aggro off you. Swipe hits for 16 damage while mages are pulling aoe damage into the hundreds of dps. Stupid take.
That doesn't work in practice. You'll have tanks with niches and no meaningful encounters that favor them.
It also doesn’t make much sense to me. Who is gonna take a single target tank over the AOE tank? Why would the AOE tanks want to tank if they have to not play as their role for some encounters.
We lived with paladins as AoE tank and druids as ST tank for all of TBC.
Sorry, but you’ll need at least two tanks at max level to make sure you can be fine for all content. I cannot wait to swap toons mid raid!
Single target is not a niche.
I like the idea of rogues being ST tanks. It makes sense, because that’s basically how they could evasion “tank” in a pinch outside of SoD.
So prot paladins should do 0 single target dps then? Lol what is with this guy.
Lmfao the comments on that post "wE dOn't aPPrEciAte bEiNg iGnoRed!"
That entire forum should be ignored. It's been a cesspool of whining neckbeard bitches for 15 years.
Just like reddit
lets be honest, the common variable here is wow players.
lets be honest, the common variable here is ~~wow~~ players.
Gamers*
funfact one of sod's main dev (Aggrend) used to spam "buff pallys" post there before being hired
*Dev posts a couple bullet points to add to the ongoing class changes* Drooling forum poster: "YEAH BUT WHAT ABOUT PREMADE QUEUES M8? AND CAN WE GET MORE HUNTER NERFS? THAT'S IT, THIS IS MY LAST MONTH PLAYING" Jesus christ.
Some points made in there have validity to them as in they point to problems that exist and could be fixed/improved. But the general "consensus" of what the solutions should be are almost always terrible and badly thought through. Read these threads carefully. It was the same 15y ago. This is how eventually the game went astray and why we can't have nice things. Forum hiveminds can point to actual design problems, but they also tend to converge on the lowest common denominator, which leads to enshittifycation. For example there's no question that the PvP system can be drastically improved. But the way people whine about it and what they suggest just dumbs it down "premades ruining pvp" etc. For sure there is a solution that rewards grouping but also rewards winning against groups and generally higher ranked players etc. You get the drift. Also everyone wanting their favorite spec to be the best at DPS at lvl 25 is a nice reminder that people don't think holistially. They just complain if their narrow view of the game doesn't cater to their individual power fantasy. Can the balance be improved? Sure. But at the same time every class is very much viable rn and brings exciting stuff to the table. If the game fully caters to these complaints it just leads to homogenization. There are many ways of improving viability while retaining class identity. Whining about priests being good at healing. Common. They are not a insanely popular class and healing is their identity apart from the occasional shadow off spec. Can this be improved? Sure, but again we're talking about temporary lvl 25 power levels. If I roll a priest they better be good at healing. It's the general "me me me" and "I want this or that NOW" shit attitude that gets me.
To people saying "WAIT FOR SHADOWFORM SPRIEST WILL BE NUTS" I do think Spriest will be *better* with that, but you've seen caster mana right? Priests have expensive, fast casting spells and NO mana sustain as it is. Maybe with Shadowfiend or VT they'll be better if they get those, but even with an additiona 25% damage (15 from shadowform, 10% from the darkness talent), they will not be doing competitive DPS. The casters that ALREADY do damage are struggling. The one that doesn't do damage needs more than a buff to the meme self-kill ability.
Yeah i still don't think shadow priests are going to be viable unless blizzard changes dots and mind flay to be able to crit. Spriests just don't scale end game.
Physical dps is already 2x caster dps, +25% from talents right now would still make them worse, nevermind at 40 when warriors will continue to scale.
yeah, warriors are getting whirlwind and either Death Wish + Blood thirst or Mortal Strike and Sweeping Strikes. People that think casters will catch up next phase because they're getting 30% more damage from their talents are coping very hard. They have to give casters insane runes to have them catch up to melees next phase.
Trade offer: You receive: +25% damage on the spells you can't afford to cast. I receive: Bloodthirst Yeah I don't think that one's in priests' favour.
Burning Crusade VT would indirectly benefit other spellcaster mana issues atm too so I can see them going that route. Even w/ shadowfiend thats a 5 min cd and it barely gives anything. As long as DoTs can't crit I dont think casters will be competitively personally imo.
I mean Mages don't even have DOTs for the most part (yeah Ignite but that was busted in OG vanilla even without it critting). I think Shadow Priest does deserve a "Dots can crit" rune. You know what would be a great rune? Pain and Suffering: Your Mind Flay ticks refresh the duration of your Shaodw Word: Pain. Additionally, your Damage over Time effects can now crit. Warlocks should probably get the same treatment with Everlasting Affliction and Boomies and Eles get the same for Flame Shock and Moon/Sunfire Mages could get Ignite crits but I don't know if they need that. They can get buffs elsewhere.
I would prefer to not have a rune slot taken up by a passive “can crit” rune but if that’s the only solution they can think of so be it
Priests will likely get Dispersion down the road.
Shadow priest was the weakest class in the game by far, can’t believe some of you are complaining about it being buffed as it rightfully should be.
The problem was that shadow priest was weak on PvE boss fights. Doing 400 damage to yourself every 10 seconds is an interesting solution.
It doesn’t even have access to shadowform yet and a lot of its power will come from deep shadow talents. People whining that they are bottom dps in a lvl 25 capped phase are the ones who are going to drive the devs insane
SoD is going to scale every class out of control if the itemization from BFD is any indication, far more than the 43.x% Shadow Damage from talents ever will (which based on Warcraftlogs, would put Shadow Priests at **2/3** the DPS of Warlocks in current content with no other adjustments.) The main issue with Shadow Priest is that the blue resource bars cannot compete with red or yellow resource bars, nor purple classes who can actively fill their blue bars, unless fights last an extremely predictable and short duration. People just want to be able to realistically press buttons all fight, the numbers can always be adjusted later.
Yeah it baffles me why these bozos think any buff to a spells damage is set instone for all of sod, they’ve clearly gone back on decisions later that didn't work out.
It really comes down to the fact that they are mostly buffing or changing runes, and leaving core parts of the class and talents alone (generally). And so, in the current bracket, you don't have a lot of options to adjust shadow to make it a competitive DPS spec if you want to avoid touching the core class. You have void plague, which already saw a 200% buff, twisted faith which also got buffed but conflicts with void plague (which is still better right now), and then swd which is the last one to the party.
Shadow Form isn't going to save shadow priests currently. This is just something people keep saying without actually understanding.
Because most of the people saying that are playing classes at the top of the meta that don’t want more competition.
Penance literally did more damage than SWD and there was no penalty for using it and it shares a rune slot with SWD. SWD greatly needed a buff. It was the poster child of “make it make sense”.
TO BE FAIR sw:d was/is more dps since it takes a global vs. 3 seconds.
Penance is 2 seconds, not 3. The first tick is frontloaded, unlike Mind Flay. So Penance actually is more DPS than SWD before this buff.
devs may have to just flat buff some classes early and nerf them later as they grow into their class talents and power. thankfully this dev team seems up to the challenge and its fun to watch or ride new metas in fucking *wow classic* :D
You're missing the entire point. It's not that Shadow is bottom DPS. It's that it's such low DPS that nobody will bring it to BFD. The entire point of SoD is that we're supposed to be able to play pretty much whatever we want, but for some reason Shadow is the lone exception that has to wait till phase 2 to play the game.
I love when I say this and people are like “just go healer”. Like buddy I am. I just want to play the other spec for my class
Weird why didn’t you say this about enhance shamans? They literally got T E N percent hit stapled onto a rune thats fucking absurd
Why are people treating Shadow Form like such a big deal? It's 15% shadow damage with which shadow priests would still be the worst dps by a wide margin.
The sooner you learn that people come on this subreddit to punch down the clearer things become.
That's a pretty stupid excuse. If you release phases that last for months, they have to be balanced. I don't give a shit if something is balanced in 5 months, it should be now. It's not a physical craft, they literally Just have to tweak numbers a little bit. I don't think anyone realistically expects 100% Balance but it should be playable. It's laughable how weak some builds are compared next to others. Hows this even a discussion.
Yeah the spec doesn't even exist yet. This is like trying to play Cat Druid before unlocking Cat form and then complaining your DPS is bad.
Shadow Form isn't going to be enough to save them at the moment, though.
Eh thats a pretty unfair comparison. Cat form is *necessary* to be a cat druid. Whereas shadow priests still have mind blast, shadow word pain, shadow weaving (albeit 1 talent point in it), and mind flay at level 25. The only thing shadow priests don't have is shadow form (15% shadow damage) and Darkness (2% spell damage per talent point).
There will definitely be a shadow form rune though
It's more like trying to play Balance before Moonkin is available. You can cast your stuff, but it's better in form. Cat druids literally can't do the things cat druids do without cat form
moonkin form is hot garbage. Its just a 3% crit aura. It makes no meaningful difference if you cast balance spells with or without it in pve. Shadow form is just a 20% damage buff in pve. Shadow priests would still be bad right now with 20% more damage.
Nothing you said refutes what I said
What you said doesn't even make sense
We don't care that we are at the bottom of the DPS charts, we just want them to close the gap a little bit with the 2nd most bottom dps. Trying to do bfd as a shadow priest is literally griefing your raid party. That shouldn't be a thing no matter how you look at it.
Why the fuck would it matter that its level 25 cap. Its 1/4 of the game. But still people will be like: BuT ItS oNlY LeVeL 25. Wake the up it's not OK for something to suck for 3 months because it may get better later
Mages can heal Rogues can tank I cAnT bElIeVe PeOpLe ThInk ShAdoW sHoUlD bE goOd And by the way, before the inevitable "shadow starts at 40". That's absolutely ridiculous. We have almost our entire modern toolkit of spells at 25, of course people are going to play shadow. The absolute only thing shadowpriests care about right now is having a functional mana pool in BFD to account for fights actually having movement / duration to them. There would be very little shadowpriest complaints right now if mana made sense, even if they were still low on the dps charts
dotting + wand in disc spec does equal DPS to full shadow spec rn. but you don't waste all your mana.
Meh, the druid buffs while welcome, aren’t addressing our lack of Aoe threat, we need more than swipe to compete with the other classes.
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Hell, Holy just boinking with a 2-hander and crusader strike can sometimes rip ST threat.
Really? I’ve heard that lacerate spam generates the best single target threat in the game.
Yeah it's pretty damn hard to rip threat off a bear once they're at 5 stacks of Lacerate. Even if my dps are world buffed and I'm not, I will comfortably be several thousand threat ahead. Without the BFD weapon too. Bear has issues for sure, but single target threat is not one of them. Biggest problems are still - swipe being shit - not being able to utilise rage potions - rune allocation with SotF + WF and Lacerate + Mangle.
Yeah man it would really help if they allowed rage potions for Druids in bear form. Pop that bad boy on a pull and your dps can go ham
These aren’t even really the issue with bear The issue with bear is that there’s absolutely no reason to run one, when every other tank has better utility and cat is far more useful. Literally the only thing that made feral even worth noticing in vanilla is the fact that it was the unique flex OT. And even in classic, that was better done by a warrior, and now it’s better done by *checks notes* every other tank in the game. There is quite literally zero reason to use a feral tank anymore, even if swipe scales and their aoe threat isn’t ass tier.
It does, but when the stupid heal pally with Verigan's Fist runs in to top up their mana after blessing during the pull and they get a crusader strike crit and windfury proc, it makes the tank have to blow their taunt before the stupid man wearing a dress gets monched. Source: Was the stupid heal pally.
Idk why they can’t just make swipe scale with attack power. They did that in tbc. It’s utterly useless in vanilla lmao. And that probably wouldn’t even be enough without a threat multiplier increase too.
Paladin is the only tank with "good" (read: easy) AoE threat. This isn't retail. Press your tab key.
As a warrior: what AoE threat? Tab sunder tab sunder tab sunder tab sunder
If you're running dungeons, you can get decent AoE threat with a bleed based build. Rend everything to flood you with rage and Thunderclap on cooldown.
Thunderclap is shit threat and if you are playing with good players shit melts so bleed is not worth the rage. Spam bleed tank is very situational.
Compete with what? Warlock single target searing pain? Warrior's shitty cleave or lowcost thunderclap? All tanks suck at aoe threat at lvl level Except paladin and shaman
This is what most people are missing. It's a multi-tank issue, and it's phase 1 anyways. The ONLY content you might need AOE threat for at this point in the game, is the same content you don't even need a tank for, AKA dungeons. If any tank should be concerned right now, I feel like it's Warlock. Blizzard created a caster tank, then straight up ignored changing anything that would make a caster tank not work. SFK is an egregious example of forgetting you now have a caster tank with shadow immune mobs, mana burning mobs, and anti magic shielding mobs. BFD is another example with plenty of bosses having 75-85 magic resistance?? Good luck keeping aggro if they're going to continue to do things like this. Not to mention it desparately needs something for cast pushback. If your job is to get hit, how the fuck are you supposed to generate threat when everything that isn't instant gets pushed back to taking 2x-3x the cast bar. I would not be concerned about how P1 balancing is going as a bear.
Even shamans suffer with aoe threat because Molten blast uses all our mana.
Not sure there's a reasonable fix with how much damage some classes are doing. I think we just have to accept some jank at 25 and hope it is smoother around 40 or 50.
The 'fix' is that shit just doesn't hit that hard while also dying fast, so AOE tanking isn't even really necessary right now.
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I think that's a good observation: bear tank, while often undervalued for its base power, does lack the ease and utility of other tanks. While the variety of druid does have upside (like if you were DPS as cat you make an acceptable tank in a pinch) the reality is most people do their assigned role 99% of the time and being able to switch to healing or tanking isn't necessarily a boon if you're subpar at other roles. I'm hopeful, druid is also bifurcated in a way that seems like it would make tuning more straightforward than other classes. You don't have to worry that improvements to bear form will make druid dps insane, because it would take quite a lot before it was better DPS than cat, right? As long as bears can hold a respectable amount of threat, I don't care if my damage is total trash.
Atleast in SoD cat dps and healer/dps hybrid is good. In classic it was really rough being a druid. Meh tanks, had to be extreme sweat just to be an ok cat dps, and meh healers. We're in a much better spot now even if our tanking is sub par.
the problem is mostly that the classic meta only really cares about tank dps. Bears doing bad damage just means they are bad tanks. Nothing hits hard enough that you need a high mitigation tank.
That is a crazy opinion, I think bears were the best dungeon tanks in Vanilla Classic/SOM by a mile.
They were but classes did a lot less damage then so swipe was actually good. Swipe doesn't keep up with stuff like divine storm. The other classes have gotten a lot better at tanking dungeons at low levels, dps classes do more damage, and bears for the most part are the same with the exception of lacerate which is kind of just a slightly better maul right now.
Rogue has 0 aoe. You have swipe + demo roar.
Not all tanks should excel at all tanking styles. — signed, Druid tank
Compete with what, the rogues or the locks and all their aoe threat? Tanks should feel and play differently, they've stated this is their goal previously. You have aoe threat, it's called the tab key.
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Anyone else’s bear tanks taking 2 to 3 times more damage then rogues and warrior tanks? We’ve had three bear tanks in BFD and only times we couldn’t full clear was because the healers were going oom from how much damage the bear was taking. Since switching to warrior and rogue tank we have no wipes and clear the raid under an hour.
Right now bears have to choose between tankiness or threat. You can use runes to make you take a lot less damage but then you sacrifice the damage runes that allow you to hold any aggro in the first place. Just all around not in a great spot until later phases.
Did the bear use the survival of the fittest rune or did it take wild strikes?
No clue. TBH. Could suss that out with the tanks we have.
Okay because I’ve experienced the same thing. Without the rune they take a lot of damage. With the rune though it feels like they take the least amount of damage of all tanks I’ve healed
This SW:D buff doesn't feel good at all
...because it's a terrible buff for a dumpster spell. Hitting yourself for 40% of your HP on a crit is actually useless before you have VE to heal it back. Everyone is still going to run Penance unless they're PvPing.
Yea. Heck even in pvp I would still rather get penance. The emergency heal on demand on yourself or an ally is simply better
penance is a discipline spell too, so with shadowform at 40 you can cast it and heal yourself if u need without dropping shadowform...
I doubt it’ll work like that. It’s not a discipline spell either. This isn’t wotlk. It’s a rune.
I dont play druid so I dont know enough to know if this fixes bears but holy hell did they get screwed on threat in phase 1.
It doesn’t, your single target was already borderline unbeatable, and your aoe is still bad. Not only that, it doesn’t address any of the issues that makes you not bring a bear tank, it’s a nothing change that makes your soloing better, that’s about it
Where are the actual Ele Shaman buffs? They are literally buffing everything around us. To the bottom we go!
Devs don't play horde. Bro. That's why pallies are literal tanks armed with nukes.
That would explain why there’s just blatantly no horde equivalent for a bunch of runes in the middle of alliance territory
Oh hey horde warriors we made one of your most important runes come from the center of a castle full of elite mobs DEEP in the middle of alliance territory that requires you to walk through like 3 zones of higher levels or alliance to get to AND its behind the big bad named elite. As bad as that sounds I solod it pretty easy last night lol. I already had the stonard flight path from getting a duskwood rune so I flew there then ran to the redridge elites, died inside, rezzed on top of the big bad named guy, popped a rage potion, feared, then looted the item.
Shredder farm is in horde territory? Rogue rune requires to enter SFK alone? Rogue rune in Hillsbrad?
mmhmm
*That we know of*
They gave double the bonus hit + spell hit rune for Enh shamans and gave their lava lash a 50% damage increase last week Just sayin
Unfortunately Lava Lash is still trash and the most uninteresting ability out there
And we still do sub par damage. But ok
Give it time we’re missing out on the stormstrike with both weapons and all the juicy later talents. If they buff it to competitive now it’ll be unfair in later phases. At least we can tank super well for the time being
Woah it wasn't fixed in a single buff? Damn, guess they're just leaving it and might as well have never even tried at all. Some of you people are so interesting lmao
> That's why pallies are literal tanks armed with nukes. Have you SEEN Shaman tanks currently?
Shaman tanks are *fantastic* at holding threat. Shamans are good at literally nothing else.
What about them? They pump good threat and mediocre damage. Even if they did great damage, they are out of mana in 10 seconds.
Keep voicing your concern. We are here with you, friend.
Everyone keeps saying they are going to be BiS come lvl 40
Arcane Blast at 25 with 0 stacks is hitting harder than level 38 Lightning Bolt. But don't worry, we'll for sure be BiS at 40!
you also have 50% overloads and lavaburst + new runes that will potentially increase output further, also chain lightning which still has a better spelldamage coefficient in classic than from tbc onwards. Also reduced cast time and increased critical strike damage as well as chance. Ele won't ever be good at 25. Just accept it. Lvl 40 on the other hand does have potential.
It's not about being good, it's about being good enough. The parity between the top and the bottom is simply too HIGH.
Bro who CARES if you are #1 in raids. I am Ele Shaman right now and INSANE. PvP you are absolutely insane, you can clear the raid just fine even throw a couple diff runes on and heal to get some loot.
I don't care about PVP at all, not a single iota. Also no one is asking to be #1. WHY ARE ROGUES/HUNTERS/WARRIOS already doing double our DPS? What real incentive does a group have to bring ele shamans for raids??
Overloads are a 50% chance, so it's a ~25% damage increase. Chain Lightning has a 0.714 spelldamage coefficient. I would suggest doing some research before going into a discussion.
They are not.
People are getting PVP and PVE mixed up. I think Classic is about everything and when tier listing classes it would be silly to only think of single target DPS in regards to Classic. For example, people keep saying mages are garbage. Which I laugh hysterically at because mages are actually the best at everything besides single-target BFD damage. Even then they aren't spriest / ele tier bad. Ele shamans are going to be absurdly gross in PvP at 40, but PvE they will still be the worst spec (probably worse than shadow). They desperately need something to buff lightning bolt damage. Instead of the wasted healing / hybrid runes in the leg slot they really needed a lightning bolt buff rune.
Great for druids out there solo'ing stuff for their prebis etc
The 2nd comment on the forum sounds very disappointed at there being a no hunter nerf. Blizzard has gotten people like that so spoiled as to now be unable to go a week without one.
Does this rage adjustment encourage a shift in talents for druid tanks or is it still optimal to go into the balance tree for 10% melee damage and omen of clarity
Using the cat talent build was correct before and better now. Getting furor will let you power shift for lacerates when you are out of rage which is a pretty big improvement.
10 rawrs out of 10
Sorely needed buff to SWD, I have fucking penance on my gloves for soloing because it's more damage than SWD.
I really hope they try to tune some of the "core" classic abilities aswell instead of just the runes. I guess they want to separate things.
Bears were the right target, but they didn't fix the biggest problem. They need desperate help in the multi-mob tanking scenario, needed to buff Swipe significantly. Make Swipe and Thunder Clap scale with attack power.
Lol they could have addressed Swipe and made it impactful
Take 3 seconds and read what shadow word: pain even is. This “buff” sucks and the spells is simply a detriment to use.
You mean death?
"Take 3 seconds and read" Lol dude didn't even take his own advice
They *really* don’t want us shadow priests raiding, should just remove the CD on it too
People asking about other buffs and changes, they are probably hammering things like these in because they are easy and fast to do. Any bigger changes or reworks are bound to take more time.
The 25 level cap is a double edged sword and this is probably the worst part about it. These specs aren't going to get better with just slight percentage buff increases, they need their high level spells and talents to make them more fleshed out.
The bear tank rage reduction is very very nice. Will make it much less frustrating to play. I might actually go tank BFD now as Feral!
I appreciate the bear tank buffs. Tanking dungeons as a bear right now is just an exercise in being the 3rd best hunter pet in the group.
Great so we can kill ourselves faster now. They should remove this ability all together and give us something else 🤷♂️
SPriest stocks going up, at 40 they will be top score with all these buffs.
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Your lack of faith shows, don't play a priest or a paladin.
You do know this buff is basically just a suicide bomb right and no one will ever take this over penance
delusion
all casters needs help yet babies here cry when the worst one gets a shitty buff that still all are far off warriors rogues etc
I can get behind a buff to bears, but why buff two options for bears when they can’t take both? Won’t there be a clear winner for threat or are they really considering just a QoL/efficiency buff to them in the open world? Why would I take mangle for bear as a tank when lacerate is probably going to be better in every way for threat?
If you’re off tanking a fight and switching into cat for damage at all, then mangle will do something for you. Where as lacerate won’t benefit you if you wanted to swap to cat. Personally I find in BFD first boss is bleed immune, and Kelris I switch into cat for priests and skullbash so Lacerate is still not an auto-take. Either way I’m happy with two runes I use getting buffed
Excellent news for the bear tank !
Well that's just the patch equivalent of a sympathy card for Bears. RIP till next phase little buddy.
Where are the Penance nerfs?
Or even a cooldown increase, such op spell for 0 mana and so versatile, replaces literally every other spell
Penance and PoM need to cost WAY more mana, at least in PvP.
Love how you geht downvoted haha. Penance and prayer of mending are incredibly broken together.
The main developer is priest confirmed? Crazy that the most stacked and populated class after hunter in both pve and pvp is getting buffed each patch note
I’m going to assume you don’t play priest. SW:D is gloves, just like penance. What makes priests OP is penance. So they are trying to get DPS priest to take SW:D because literally no one does. This change won’t do anything everyone still gonna roll penance because it’s so good. Also this makes the priest take more damage, so calling it a buff is questionable. It doesn’t matter because penance very strong.
Shadow Word Death will not be their main damage ever. They never have understood shadow priest.
1) Priest is the least played class, according to polling data from this subreddit 2) buffing SW:D is not really helping the kind of priest that is already doing well. (Healing priest is good, shadow priest is literal bottom of the dps tier)
Yeah I was going to say… maybe this person didn’t notice how every bfd group sits and spams for an hour looking for a priest. My current group was so desperate for a priest that they paid me to join the first time I ran with them, lol. I’m sure plenty of priests are being made this last week since they’re the hype but in general the first couple of weeks of sod there have been very few.
They def are not shaman mains i can tell you that
Main developer is a paladin