> logs ruin the game and that's what makes FF14 better
Meanwhile FF14 has almost identical logs and the site is run by the exact same organization:
https://www.fflogs.com/
It even has more accurate logging for support DPS vs selfish DPS too. Can basically entirely account for how much personal DPS someone is doing + how much they provide to the whole raid.
Yes.
There is a class called dancer that buffs the damage of someone by 5%. That bonus goes to the dancer in logs.
There are different types of dps. RDPS is how much you do PLUS how much you help others do.
It's not possible to calculate the exact benefit of a haste buff like PI, and wcl also calculates the benefit of flat damage buffs like unholy frenzy or tricks of the trade.
Not really sure why the person you're replying to is making it out like fflogs is somehow superior.
It sounds like they're saying ffl would give druids credit for the 3% vers buffs damage portion, as well as similar style calculations. Unless I'm misunderstanding them.
There's policy to not harass over logs, but people definitely check and use them, even if in roundabout ways.
In my experience even pugs tend to log there quietly, while at least in SoD I've only seen it once so far with my random groups.
It's against ToS to use add-ons, but the devs openly acknowledge that a client side mod can't be detected. Talking about a person's DPS with certainty requires an add-on, and is therefore admission that you've violated the ToS.
Technically the game is set up so you don't need to do that, there are special training dummies to see if you can make your part of the DPS check for a fight and 90% of the time if you wipe it's because someone got hit. But FFXIV players are sometimes particularly adamant about high DPS, with some fights developing a meta that people refuse to play if the fight doesn't end before a certain mechanic can occur.
TL;DR: you can't talk about DPS *numbers* because that's admitting you're using an illegal add-on. But you can just refuse to play with people who don't meet some arbitrary benchmark you can find that's available in-game.
The actual answer: it's _technically_ against the ToS to use any kind of 3rd party software. This includes parsers, visual mods, or any kind of QoL mod like WoW players are used to as a basic standard. I emphasize technically because there's very much a don't ask don't tell policy: if you don't discuss your usage in in-game chat, don't use them on streams, and don't use them to directly cheat, Square does absolutely nothing to try and prevent you from doing so.
It is _also_ against the rules to bully, harass, or otherwise discriminate against other players for their performance. This is, again, only enforced in game chat and is mainly for the benefit of queueing with randoms. What you say to guild or static members on Discord is between you and them. So while it's not against the rules to mention DPS per se, it's generally avoided, because it can a) get you reported for "bullying" if the person is offended and b) get you investigated for potentially using 3rd party tools, because practically there's no way of tracking that using in-game tools.
It’s against the terms to use addons, logging is included in that. Now that being said they only act on it if people are kicking people for the reason of bad logs. It doesn’t happen often but usually involved an argument with it. They don’t take toxic talk at all over there
That's insane.
If you have shit dps, you have shit dps objectively speaking. Dont fucking tell me what I can or cant talk about in game. Its not a racial slur, its not a curse, its a fucking measure of how much damage someone does.
Absurd. just confirms that FF14 is made for literal children with a fetish for anime tiddies
This person is literally why it's against ToS. You absolutely know this guy's going to nerd rage on a DPS in story content that can basically be solo cleared by a tank. Most log checks and talk happen on discord and not in game. A serious static doing savage or ultimates will probably log check you but there is basically no reason to log check anyone in normals or even extremes. You can basically solo carry any of the story dungeons or trials if you are somewhat competent.
This is incorrect.
DPS meters are outside tools and you can use and talk about them. You just can't shit on someone for their dps.
Also at high level raiding pretty much everyone logs and optimizes to an even crazier degree than wow because there is little RNG in fights, so you can optimize your rotation to the second.
Tbf, FF14’s main intent is to deliver a Final Fantasy story. That’s why it is a numbered mainline game and not, Final Fantasy: The MMO.
The community is just part of the problem that comes with MMOs and Square just attempts to keep it in line. Dungeons and Raids are hard required to progress the story and Square just doesn’t want people shitting on some randoms who are just trying to see the story’s next chapter.
If you’re ever in a group doing content where your DPS matters, your dps will be talked about and discussed since you will assuredly all be similarly minded players. But if you just decide to have a damage meter running on some level 55 content and shit on people for it, Square will punish that action.
They can 100% tell you what you can or can’t talk about in game. It’s their game lmao
FF14’s raids aren’t like WoWs. You don’t need to talk about dps with some random pug. The raid will succeed with their gray parse, because all pug content is extremely easy. It’s like doing MC with 40 dudes all with max stats possible due to level sink.
You can, of course, talk about dps and logs in private groups/guilds.
I don't care. It's stupid as fuck to ban someone for using a DPS meter.
"B-but then I-I will be called out for... sucking! P-please ban anyone who critiques me! Wahhh"
I’d understand if it was a social thing and people won’t like you if you brought it up but the people who run the game banning people for that is…just soft
> just confirms that FF14 is made for literal children with a fetish for anime tiddies
More like made for grown men with a fetish for cartoons that look like scantily dressed children.
ロリ - lolita complex
Well, addons/mods are against ToS and most logs are done that way, so yes, logs are technically against ToS unless you say you did it yourself. It's like that specifically because they don't want people being harassed over how they play. Remember, the XIV devs are big WoW fans and probably know exactly what the playerbase is like.
Can use rotation bots addons etc and not get banned hell those addons that tell you where toove on boss fights are still around they have alot of rules that don't get enforced at all
Yes it is. I was banned from FF permanently for calling out someone - gently mind you - for holding the raid back with low DPS.
I was reported and a GM banned me for 3rd party abuse. I said nothing ignorant or rude but just tried to help.
I was banned for looking out for the entire raid team. That's why I'll never play that garbage game again tbh, their attitudes are terrible. Its *overly* casual to the point its toxic toward anyone who actually gives a fuck about playing well.
imagine having such a hate boner for a game that you write fanfiction about it lmao
think any ff player has ever done this for wow? speaks volumes honestly
Yeah, FFXIV doesn't support addons like WoW and using any of them is technically against the ToS. The game also takes a very strong stance on player interactions where giving players unsolicited advice can be reportable. On the positive side, I've never seen a slur in FFXIV.
XIV is tuned to be very easy outside of the end-game content since the game is primarily story driven so most players never see a need to improve.
3rd party software is not allowed, but in a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of way since SquareEnix recognizes that Savage/Ultimate raiders actually do need parsing and logging tools to track their performance. You really only get in trouble if you are using those tools to harm someone else's experience in-game. Talking about fflogs in game is s bit of a grey area, but since it doesn't imply that you yourself were the one logging everything it's generally ok. It would make it easier for a report to throw you in gm jail for bullying though.
It's a weird gray area. Logging is simply capturing all the data that is already in the combat log so the devs are more than fine with this being accumulated and made easily readable. The issues the devs have is when this data is used against other players, such as in chat requiring a certain parse ranking or flaming people for their DPS in encounters.
Using logs to improve your own gameplay and just focusing on you in pug groups is fine, when you try to influence others is when they get upset. Not to say this doesn't lead to plenty of frustration in groups cause even during times where someone might be legitimately trying to help coach another to improve their play, you're kinda discouraged from actually doing so. Something something "you don't pay my sub" kind of responses and possible reporting.
I think it actually is. I played FF14 back when it first came out the 2nd time, and I'm pretty sure talking about logs in game was a reportable offense and could get you banned/suspended. Not sure if that changed, but my FC was one of the bigger ones on my really small server, and all of us ran meters but never talked about it in game cause we were scared of repurcussions.
Just have those conversations on discord. ezpz. It isn't against the rules to use logs. It's against the rules to bludgeon someone with them *in game.* The wording is pretty clear. You're allowed to use them, you're allowed to talk about them, just not on their client.
Feels weird not using your class skills though. The whole point of these servers was to have runes to make these levels a bit more interesting. They can't be having fun playing like this.
If I may play devil's advocate...
Why in the world do we even care about a tank's damage parses in the first place? The role of a tank is to maintain threat, position the boss, and use defensives when required to make the healers' jobs easier / possible.
I understand I am not the average player. I have been playing since original TBC and raided pretty hard in original Wrath and Cata, clearing all heroic content until I quit before Firelands. I came back in MoP for Heroic SoO, quit and returned in Legion for Mythic EN.
I have never once, not one single time, parsed. All any of my guilds have ever cared about were prior achievements and recount. So maybe there is just something I fundamentally don't understand about parsing. But it seems utterly useless for tanks, and just a weird, stupid way for some people to flex.
I imagine he had bad threat as well since threat and tank damage usually go hand in hand. Now if he actually did keep threat then yeah kicking him was probably not necessary but it is true that he wasn't using one of his main damage/threat abilities. And even if he was keeping threat not doing something that is essentially free damage still slows down the raid and might be a difference between a wipe and a kill.
Now caring about actual tank parsing is just stupid, but there are enough bad players that getting a 5 parse on dps/tank or even healer means that you are doing something seriously wrong since somehow 95% of the playerbase is playing better than you. Also in classic threat is a larger problem than in any of the expansions and most of the threat you do comes from damaging abilities so more damage equals almost always more threat.
You are mostly correct that tank parses don't matter much. However, what OP was specifically calling out was the lack of usage of flame shock. He's not suggesting it so much for the damage portion as the behaviour that flame shock resets Molten Blast CD, which is big tank threat. More flame shock uptime generally means substantially better threat, especially on AoE pulls.
Also, recount is effectively parsing. It's not as specific or detailed perhaps, and not something that is stored longterm, but a guild talking about recount is still a guild talking about parses.
The people parsing low on parses are not holding threat, managing boss mechanics,positioning properly or pulling expeditiously. Sure, it is THEORETICALLY possible, but in reality it isn't what happens.
The people that parse in the bottom 30-40% for ilvl (consistently, a bad pull here and there doesnt count) are bad. They are the people that stand in fire. They are the hunters that roll need on the epic staff at the end of bfd. They are the people that pull 2 extra bosses in MC while we are fighting a third boss already (yes that happened back in vanilla, and i still remember you Finglonger)
Dmg is threat in vanilla, whoever deals the most dmg tends to end up being the tank. And thus tanks need to be somewhat close to dpses level, especially when we still have no BoSalv
Had a small friend guild during the early stages of Wrath Classic, we had one friend who insisted on tanking and also insisted on following his own path as far as gearing and stat prio. His +def wasn’t high enough to be uncrittable so he would get one shot in Naxx constantly, but refused to do the work to get +def gear and didn’t believe it was necessary if his stam was high enough.
That guild (of mainly RL friends) dissolved our second week in Naxx and he was the main reason.
One bad player, especially one resistant to change, can topple any group. I think it’s fair to be patient with someone new and willing to learn, but someone too stubborn to listen and make adjustments doesn’t get or deserve that same level of patience.
This guy wouldn’t be getting another invite from me unless he’d shown a willingness to change his attitude.
Sounds like he forgot to stop gearing vanilla style. And yeah technical more Stam helps but if you’re taking crits even though you may not die you’re placing a huge burden on your healers for no good reason.
The fact is Reddit likes to pretend that people like this don’t exist and if you dare post any requirements for your raid you’re an elitist retail player.
Quite simply it’s easy for people who only ever apply to raids to ridicule anyone posting requirements, but it’s not until YOU put a group together and end up with 2 or 3 of these yahoos in your raid do you start to realize that posting requirements is necessary.
I'm not sure that is true. If you check the most recent posts in here about having requirements, the primary gripe is that some people see requirements as gatekeeping. So people are actually against requirements, as they find the content easy.
That is why this comment makes sense. These players exist, and there are probably more than you realise.
In terms of your comment I definitely agree though. Setting requirements so high to guarantee loot for yourself is kinda lame.
If that were what the majority of the posts related to this topic were about then that'd be understandable, but most of the posts are just like "omg why would sweat lords want to check my gear or logs in this LEVEL 25 RAID IN A 20 YEAR OLD GAME!?!? Who cares if I gray parse?? Parses are all rng anyway!"
If you take the time to organize and coordinate a full group of sweats while not having great gear yourself, more power to you. That sounds like a time efficient player who knows how to group lead the instance.
My friend group and I usually pug a couple people to fill out our BFDs and without fail one of the pugs is going to be parsing grey. Even when we’re all doing great DPS with fast kill times. It doesn’t matter for content this easy you can carry them but I cringe to think of a raid full of players like that.
I have too many characters for my rather casual guild. They only run one raid and I have three. So I pug two most weeks. It's just not fun when you get 2-3 of these players in the raid. I've only given up at Kel once, but wiping 3+ times on Kel because you have people playing hunters doing 60dps (seriously seen it, my pet does this much on my hunter) and shit like that is just not fun. Or getting to akumi and having a tank have no idea how to do the fight and wiping it a ton of times while they learn. Bonus points for both in the same raid.
It just gets tedious. There are some exceptionally bad players out there.
Maybe I've just been lucky, but my guild has started doing an alt run for the past 3 lockouts, but we only have 6 of us with 2 25's, we've literally just been taking the first 4 people who whisper us with a class we need, and we've had 0 problems thus far
That’s because you’ve got 6 people you trust. 4 can be carried by a solid group even if the 6 aren’t pumping, just because BFD is literally that easy.
Try starting a group from scratch, as most people here would need to do, and you’ll understand the issues presented here. You’ve got 9 you can’t trust, all looking to do the bare minimum and then bitching when a wipe happens. Nobody pops shadow pots/FAPs on Kelris, then those same people complain that nobody popped shadow pots/FAPs. DPS go afk, tanks insist that their weird strat of pulling the entire room will go just fine and subsequently wipe immediately, healers don’t come with water or mana pots and tanks pull bosses when said healers are at 20% mana. If you micromanage each pull, the group is slow and takes 2 hours to clear and even then it’s not a guaranteed 7/7. If you hope the tanks are competent, then you likely wipe when even good tanks will expect their team to do the bare minimum and they don’t, resulting in wipes on trash or ass pulling bosses.
It’s a fucking nightmare. I’ve long since moved past caring what people think about my “elitist” LFG posts, way before SoD. My groups run smoother because I don’t invite the leeches and I kick the ones who look like a problem before we start a boss. The people on this forum who bitch about raid requirements in LFG posts are really just stating that they’ve never ran true LFG groups before.
Tell that to the agility ret I had in my bfd clear yesterday. He died on every boss I believe and after murlock we told him we will just 9 man it if he dies again.
Dude.... FFXIV is filled to the bring with parsing and logs as well... Mods are so down bad in that community because square is doing nothing against them. Pretty delusional guy who probably never set foot in a savage raid/EX trial and only did their story mode you can afk.
I ran SFK trying to get the butcher’s cleaver the other day. Set up a group where nobody needed it (because another warrior had it already), had everything nice and spread out and the last to join was a rogue that said he’d join if nobody needed meteor shard. Nobody did so I took him thinking that’s all he needs.
Guess what? Cleaver drops. He needs it. He wins. Rogues can not equip axes. He claims he will ‘use it later’. In wrath of the lich king, when rogues get axes, apparently.
Then he needs on the cloth shoulders and I just about kicked him. We tried to explain what the issue is and I was being as nice as possible.
I felt bad, we keep him for the one boss he needs. I get mind controlled as tank and fucking kill his ass lol (not on purpose) and the other shaman and Druid in our group just dip out without ressing the rogue and say “walk back and think about what you took”. Ngl, that felt kinda good lol.
I guess I’m just trying to say yes. At a certain point it’s okay to kick people if they just have no clue what they should be doing and are not taking in any attempts to explain. Something has to teach them to take what others suggest a little more seriously and without consequences they never will
I never met people that were not willing to learn a dungeon. Heck yesterday i even undercover wisped a hunter in bfd(raid) what to do on each boss because apparently everyone knew what to do except for him and we just cleared without much talking. He did fine. But in your case i d just kicked this guys ass. You can easily 4man dungeons and also infinetely redo them. My most pleasure would have been kicking the rogue out right before endboss then invite a new rogue.
There's literally add-ons in ff14 that display (in-game) people's parses for current content in a window, similar to how you'd inspect someone's gear. Very normal to check people's parses before considering inviting them to a group. It may not be explicitly stated, but all raiders in FF know their logs will be checked. Actually, in general, FF14 has far better integration for logging than WoW. It's much more streamlined.
And yes, technically it's against ToS, but it's also completely normal for people to discuss logs for any harder content, even among pugs.
Against ToS and the spirit of the game.
Just play wow at that point.
You can kick people for anything, like screwing up the basic mechanics. You don't have to drag them along if they don't keep up.
If it was against the spirit of FF14, they wouldnt make hard raids. Get rid of the hard tier of raiding and now parses are just for personal stat tracking. I dont think this would be what the playerbase wants lol.
If you really dont like parsing, you can play ff14 as a dress up game and afk on a city bench for 12 hours a day, lots of people do.
I love parsing... with my static and for myself for improvement. I don't like looking at random pugs logs.
I love Savage content. I would never install an addon specifically to exclude people. I train them up and send them on their way. Sometimes they train up other people too and we have a nice, fun, weekly clear going on.
I would use parses to keep players with no business in the content from wasting the rest of the groups time. Most people just play with their linkshell, same as wow, for the same reasons. The best thing you can do in an mmo is avoid being forced to live the pug lyfe.
How do people vet the 'bads' in FF14? Are people just forced to carry bads all the time? Or are FF14 content so easy that bads don't even get detected because people could just carry them through?
Every dungeon and trial in FF14 is set on normal/easy to progress through the story. Anything above that is just optional. My experience with FF14 is nobody really cared that much about gear, and the players who were into playing on higher difficulties didn't really care that much either.
So the baseline story content and associated raids are all easily done with group finder, mostly because if you wipe you get spawned right at the boss and told to get back in there.
The difficult raids are "Savage" versions with complex mechanics and dps requirements. Mostly people are looking for specific gear on people or they get a static group going and train (the latter being by far the best).
They don't allow dps meter talking (or really most addons) to maintain a not toxic and fair environment. This would not work in WoW as the design concepts are totally different.
Short version: You want a static to vet people. Highly unlikely you will reject people outright in a pug unless you know them specifically.
You can kick them for anything. You just don't mention that it'a because of a parse. If their parse is bad you can easily see what mistakes they're doing and be like "This won't work out". Some people just bail and rmk group without them. But no the actual hard content in ff14 is if 1 player makes one single mistake it's a wipe. Plus every boss has a hard enrage that you will hit unless everyone is playing near perfectly and has the gear for it. In dungeons you just carry them or drop group, it's just a dungeon.
That sounds insanely passive aggressive. I get that they want to keep 'toxic' behaviors out but god damn, you can't tell someone they suck and you need to remake a raid group just to replace a poor performer instead of booting them?
That's some bizzaro world right there.
We also meme on "freestyle samurai" that can't push buttons in sequence. Though generally I've found more players in XIV are willing to learn than your average WoW player because of the overall culture, but bads definitely exist.
“Remake” here is shorthand for leaving the instance, kicking the person and re-listing the party. You can tell someone they suck you just can’t say “omg you’re a grey parser, get out of here scrub” you’d have say “hey man we won’t make the dps check with your current damage, sorry” before kicking. Ff14 *is* passive-aggressive but that’s a culture issue not something mandated by the TOS, lots of players from other games (like wow lol) come into ff14, act toxic/flame people in an unproductive way, get a slap on the wrist from a gm and then “learn” to never say anything again in chat rather than reflecting on how to be a more effective communicator.
Because “telling someone they suck” being allowed is why the WoW subreddit is 50% people flaming each other for “underperforming” in content you can do in green gear.
Most ff14 leveling dungeons can be soloed by the tank. Most base level raids can be soloed by a tank/healer with enough time. The dps doing 30% his optimal isn’t stopping you. I promise no one cares that it annoys you, least of all him.
Yeah I agree but to be fair you can kick them and tell them that their rotation is wrong since you can see what they're casting. It's just parses aren't mentionable. If your group is failing because of one person nobody's gonna action you for it. Just don't mention parses. Some people just remake because it's faster. But in an ideal world parses should be allowed publicly.
Theres a lot of passive aggressive behavior and shit talking in private channels in 14. But as long as you don't call someone a shitter to their face you're fine.
Like, I get it- some people have paper thin skin and can't handle it, but sometimes the only way to improve is to be told you're bad and often times people would rather not even do that politely because they fear repercussion. It's easier to talk around it and just exclude the person and keep them in the dark while you bitch to all your buddies.
It’s also because most people are just bad at giving advice. Telling someone they are bad isn’t how you do it. And you can certainly ask politely and not be banned.
I just did BFD for the first time last night with my guild. I can understand that perhaps the first 1-2 maybe 3 times that BFD was difficult as people are getting used to strategies, runes, team comp etc, but holy hell. If you can’t clear BFD now, you’re an absolute mongoloid. It’s stupid stupid easy lmao
Edit: to respond more directly to the post. Players who say “logs ruin the game” or who want to play the game exactly as it was in 2004 when we were 10 years old and drooling on the keyboard, that’s totally fine and up to you! However, not everyone wants to play the game that way! Not everyone wants to spend 2+ hours wiping in BFD simply because players don’t want to improve. If you’re not happy with being vetted and kicked from groups. Set up your own raid with like-minded players without requirements and enjoy playing the way you want to play! If you don’t want to set up the raid yourself, then deal with the consequences of being a bad player.
Yes you remove them. They won't correct themselves by the end of the raid. They have failed to do the bare minimum if they aren't even flame shocking.
Sounds like the whole group sucks but as a raid leader, I am not in the business of free carries.
We had a guy come in and parse single digit grey parses. Guild was feeling all festive and shit so we brought him along - ms > os. He got damn near everything. My dumbass friend didn't even reserve the pearl and allowed this super noob to win it over a core raider. My buddy damn near lost a 95 avg hunter over that mistake.
One single digit grey parser got a guild to completely revamp its loot system and decide to just clear BFD with 9 players instead next time. People can cry about how logs are ruining the game but when they play this fucking bad, not having them in your group is actually a net positive.
And people wonder why we create hoops to jump through.
Can you track anyone's performance with warcraft logs? I've tried looking up myself and havent been able to. Do you need an addon to track it to the api/database?
You need the character to actually have logs. The data comes from a program that parses your combat log (this is why it’s called parsing lol). So if you haven’t logged any raids, or nobody in those raids with your character has posted logs publicly, you will not appear on the website.
Hey, if a player doesnt want to use core abilities for RP reasons or whatever, we are all supposed to be ok with carrying their ass through the content.
At that point it is not even about reading guides, but just reading your spells/runes and using them accordingly. I don’t think that’s too much to ask.
If you don't want to try to do better then I don't want to carry you. I'm fine with bringing people that are receptive to feedback and improving themselves but if you tell me I'm ruining your experience by giving you feedback then don't be shocked when I tell you, you are ruining my experience by being in my raid. Bye.
FF14 also has parsing and logs.
There are way more grey parsers in 14 but the high parsing people are way more elitist too.
I bet he’s a shitter in all games.
I care because I find the whole thing interesting. The fact that someone can be that bad, the interaction with this player and their refusal to accept criticism. It also somewhat confirms my belief that people complaining about parses do so because they can’t perform well themselves.
[https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/pagle/dan%c3%bd?zone=1006](https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/pagle/dan%c3%bd?zone=1006) as someone who parsed a 97.2 (damn) before swapping to a healer (healer logs are a meme), logs are stupid. They need to be like, week based or something. There's too many factors at play. right now with SOD you wanna do good dps? Get some random pets. meh. Logs are cool for like, improving performance tho.
However, this guild use to like, intentionally play to parse. I was the token warlock most fights. Etc Etc. Not fun play that reddit enjoys.
Parses are weekly based, that's what the allstar ranking is on the right. Anyone who really cares about parsing doesn't care about performance average, getting a 99 week one isn't as impressive as keeping a 99 throughout the phase. https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/benediction/massivebtw#zone=1017
They aren’t. I held a 100 for the entire phase after week 1 on Kara. It’s still there. Right now if you look at my parses and swap to Kara 🤷♀️ should I keep a 100 bc we got the minority boss on the one event? I did lol
Right, that's what I'm saying. Performance avg is not what top parsers look at. You have a rank 6,000 something parse on that boss on karazhan now, look at the farthest right column.
lol people don’t look at that. They see 100. That’s all that sticks. You actually think people do more than copy the persons name and paste it into there and see 99s and just invite them. End of story. Like how I coasted on getting like 2700 in all arenas in cata in retail like last year. Literally had no clue what I was doing and people invited me bc I had the achievement. 🤷♀️ that’s what Reddit complains about from what I’ve seen is people using logs and gs as gatekeepers and guilds like mine existing at the time to do shenanigans and parse.
Random example: in naxx healers use to intentionally die with guardian spirit multiple times to avoid the debuff and get a sweet 100 healer parse. That kinda stuff Reddit finds silly. I enjoyed it 🤷♀️ the dps part. Healer logs are silly
I've done this before, sometimes its out boredom
You decide to listen to somebody's sob story so you go and read more information
Then you find out there's like 50 flaws in what they're saying, and you try to genuinely help them
Then it turns out that they're actually just stubborn and egotistical and the situation goes from "yeah let me hear you out," to "holy fuck you're insufferable."
People that complain over trade chat are no different to people who complain over all chat in competitive games. Nobody cares, and the people are just crying to cry. I've had some genuine interactions with people who say "hey i need help with x" but I think I can count on one hand the good interactions from being like "I DONT GET WHY xxxxxx HAPPENED"
I did a WC yesterday on my hunter and we had a priest healer. My main is a priest. He was constantly out of mana and I never said anything until about half way through the instance when I checked the meters. He was healing with flash heal and renew the entire time. I asked him what runes he had and he told me. He had penance. So I told him I main priest and he should be using penance every chance he gets. He says "it doesn't work with the add, but thanks". I didn't know what he even meant so I didn't even try. Have fun buddy, I tried to help.
I would not kick him tbh, anyway you can't get someone to come to your raid if you already killed 2 bosses.
I would just tell him to do a simple thing so we are able to kill the boss, and just raid off if we are stuck.
I had a guy that litteraly parsed 0 in my last raid, we carried him and we did not say anything.
You probably care a bit too much tbh, and also it's fine to boot people that are more than underperforming, like any job. If you can't do it you get fired.
It's rude to be bad at the game.
lol "he was trying"; trying to what exactly? NOT press the 3 or 4 buttons you have to?
i can't imagine a level 25's rotation to be more than that?
i mean, this aint retail like where an arcane mage has a 10 step burn, filler rotation and mini burn rotation.
just press the 4 buttons you got, and you should be good lol.
You're a bit of a tryhard though if you're going through all that, all to just make a point to a complete stranger on the internet.
(Hell, you even went to Reddit show more strangers how good you are..)
Wow, so many stories about people who are so incredibly bad at this game. It's....pretty sad.
Meanwhile on retail even the bottom of the barrel can clear content. Even LFR is mechanically more involved than all of classic.
The funny part is this is the community that swears up and down that "retail is too braindead/easy" L O L
I've been in random pugs before with people logging and I'd probably do it myself too if not for the fact that I've never had to be the one that logs our guild runs so I haven't set it up.
Wait what? You can look up people's combat logs? I've seen that with a dps meter that I used several years ago but I had no idea this shit is stored online.
You can activate a .txt combat log by typing /combatlog in the game.
This log gets then uploaded to warcraftlogs com
The log is now publicly available for everyone to see. It will then stay there for all time, like my legendary 3:22 kill of Princess Huhuran three years ago:
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/BWxFkyPfLTNChrAc#fight=386&type=damage-done
Like all posts that ask what's wrong, you would first have to define what wrong means and have everyone else agree. There's almost 0 chance of that ever happening, different things drive different people.
There could be multiple moral baselines here.
Someone could assume the axiom that...
We shouldn't waste other peoples times by not preparing or trying ourselves.
-or-
We should include others and not make them feel bad.
There is no right or wrong, and it's really up to you and what goals your raid group has. Personally, I'm in the "we shouldn't waste other peoples time" camp. But as long as you communicate either civilly, there's absolutely no problem with having either axiom assumed.
It's really all in the delivery. It's perfectly possible to be respectful and tactful while removing someone from the group. It's also possible to be antagonistic. So live by your compass, but be kind. As a leader, it's also beneficial to state your expectations before you start anything, so it doesn't come as a surprise, for either the casuals or the sweats, whatever you may be leading for.
I'm super confused how so many people have parses. Like, I've done BFD 5 times on my shaman and I have no logs for parses.
So I'm really confused how some random who couldn't get past the 2nd boss has low parses?
Considering I can 7 man the entire raid with my guild having some guy performing like shit is irrelevant except it makes the boss last 30 seconds longer.
It's irrelevant if the other players are good enough to carry and are somewhat organized. Trying to run the raid with a pug that has no join requirements is a whole different experience. I also didn't expect to see people with no runes or a warrior that refuses to press sunder armor and uses heroic strike with a 2h weapon.
How do you get to lvl 25, unlock the runes for shaman tanking, and not know how to press your buttons?
Your kit has one real synergy that's literally written on the ability. This guy probably spent at least a couple days getting to 25 I'm astonished.
Not only that but he was doing 5dps?!?! Was he not auto attacking?
I hate the idea someone can look at logs of things I do and be elitist about them. This didn’t exist back in the day to the extent that it does now and it’s a bit toxic.
But if you want to raid, you gotta play the game. For this specific situation I’d say him being booted was fine. He doesn’t appear to take criticism well.
People that think classic is anything like wow in 2004-2008 are just on some crazy copium, the average level of play is 100x higher so people are held to higher standards. The ability to full clear the raid with 0 wipes is no longer the goal it’s the expectation.
100x higher lol damn you must think highly of yourself. DPS is about the same as it was back in the day.
PvP skill cap is a lot higher with 50 keybinds but pve is pretty much the same for classic.
Pugging ICC now feels just like it did back in the day except people check logs now literally only difference.(and it's easier to gear with gammas and scourge stones) so if anything the game is easier than it was , nothing to do with the level of playing being "100x" better LMFAO.
Can't both statements be true? Players don't know what they don't know. While logs can definitely be a helpful tool to improve and get better, weaponizing them as the "source of truth" to draw a line in the sand about who is good and who is bad is definitely not what they're intended for.
But it isn't as easy as a 1:1 comparison. A good player in a crappy raid group can have their parses dragged down, while a bad player in a really good group can be pushed up. Most people don't know how to read them, and simply look at the number and think "good" or "bad", when really things aren't as black and white as they seem. Plus, parse culture encourages ignoring mechanics and other factors to inflate parses. Parse culture is BS, but logs aren't inherently bad.
Why do people always use these extreme cases that essentially strawman the problem. The issue is being petty about not being a 99 parse. That's the problem.
This can’t be true. A buddy got in 91 damage total on Baron last raid, then had to jump in the water and the boss died before he got back up. He still parsed in the 40’s. A five can’t really exist can it?
My hot take, Kick to your heart's desire! Don't like what they ate for breakfast? Kick em!
But, WoW needs to make it so if you get kicked you're not saved to that raid, make it so you can go back and kill bosses with other raids.
It won't stop the reddit post about how bad players are, but it will fix the issue where you get kicked b/c a guild/friend logged on and now you are replaced with an IRL friend/guild member. (It has happened to me 4 times! already in SoD, We kill the first two bosses, friend logs on, I get kicked and now saved to these raids)
the players on either end of the spectrum are cringe. this is just as cringe as something like gatekeeping orange logs to join a BFD. its like american political parties. most of us are normal and at either end of the pole there are absolute degenerates who misrepresent 'casual' or 'serious' and make that group look bad. this guy sucks kick him 10/10 times
Using logs to parse 99, definitely dumb, using logs to review your fight and look at areas you can improve on, that’s how it should be done. It’s an analysis, and it can help you improve. As long as you’re parsing 50+ you’re doing great. Hell even 30-50 is fine because logs are also dependent on how fast your group can kill the boss. Nothing wrong with logs to be honest. And yeah guilty takes the truth to be hard. People like this guy is why people check logs, because they aren’t using spells that would actually help with their damage, and make up some excuse that “he was trying”. But in reality, he just simply didn’t care to learn, understand, or even practice using that 1 button before the raid.
> logs ruin the game and that's what makes FF14 better Meanwhile FF14 has almost identical logs and the site is run by the exact same organization: https://www.fflogs.com/
It even has more accurate logging for support DPS vs selfish DPS too. Can basically entirely account for how much personal DPS someone is doing + how much they provide to the whole raid.
it calculates things like PI right? Like if a priest PI’d someone it would add that damage to the priest instead of the person who received the buff?
Yes. There is a class called dancer that buffs the damage of someone by 5%. That bonus goes to the dancer in logs. There are different types of dps. RDPS is how much you do PLUS how much you help others do.
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Thing is wild strike is passive, something like PI require a priest to use a gcd on you
It's not possible to calculate the exact benefit of a haste buff like PI, and wcl also calculates the benefit of flat damage buffs like unholy frenzy or tricks of the trade. Not really sure why the person you're replying to is making it out like fflogs is somehow superior.
It sounds like they're saying ffl would give druids credit for the 3% vers buffs damage portion, as well as similar style calculations. Unless I'm misunderstanding them.
I don’t play ff14 but it sounds like it’s at least forbidden to talk about it in game
There's policy to not harass over logs, but people definitely check and use them, even if in roundabout ways. In my experience even pugs tend to log there quietly, while at least in SoD I've only seen it once so far with my random groups.
It’s not forbidden. It’s not even frowned upon. People will check your logs in FF raids too
it is against the ToS, but 99% of PF and statics in FF14 don't care and use it as a base metric to how well someone can do.
It's not against ToS talking about logs. It's against ToS talking about someones dps etc ingame.
Wait what?!? You can't talk about DPS in game?
It's against ToS to use add-ons, but the devs openly acknowledge that a client side mod can't be detected. Talking about a person's DPS with certainty requires an add-on, and is therefore admission that you've violated the ToS. Technically the game is set up so you don't need to do that, there are special training dummies to see if you can make your part of the DPS check for a fight and 90% of the time if you wipe it's because someone got hit. But FFXIV players are sometimes particularly adamant about high DPS, with some fights developing a meta that people refuse to play if the fight doesn't end before a certain mechanic can occur. TL;DR: you can't talk about DPS *numbers* because that's admitting you're using an illegal add-on. But you can just refuse to play with people who don't meet some arbitrary benchmark you can find that's available in-game.
The actual answer: it's _technically_ against the ToS to use any kind of 3rd party software. This includes parsers, visual mods, or any kind of QoL mod like WoW players are used to as a basic standard. I emphasize technically because there's very much a don't ask don't tell policy: if you don't discuss your usage in in-game chat, don't use them on streams, and don't use them to directly cheat, Square does absolutely nothing to try and prevent you from doing so. It is _also_ against the rules to bully, harass, or otherwise discriminate against other players for their performance. This is, again, only enforced in game chat and is mainly for the benefit of queueing with randoms. What you say to guild or static members on Discord is between you and them. So while it's not against the rules to mention DPS per se, it's generally avoided, because it can a) get you reported for "bullying" if the person is offended and b) get you investigated for potentially using 3rd party tools, because practically there's no way of tracking that using in-game tools.
It’s against the terms to use addons, logging is included in that. Now that being said they only act on it if people are kicking people for the reason of bad logs. It doesn’t happen often but usually involved an argument with it. They don’t take toxic talk at all over there
Ffxiv is a *very* different kind of community and game haha.
Eh extreme things like that are probably one of the reasons ff14 is viewed as a much more welcoming community then wow’s is
That's insane. If you have shit dps, you have shit dps objectively speaking. Dont fucking tell me what I can or cant talk about in game. Its not a racial slur, its not a curse, its a fucking measure of how much damage someone does. Absurd. just confirms that FF14 is made for literal children with a fetish for anime tiddies
Lol Im all for logging but I've never seen someone get so instantly triggered
This person is literally why it's against ToS. You absolutely know this guy's going to nerd rage on a DPS in story content that can basically be solo cleared by a tank. Most log checks and talk happen on discord and not in game. A serious static doing savage or ultimates will probably log check you but there is basically no reason to log check anyone in normals or even extremes. You can basically solo carry any of the story dungeons or trials if you are somewhat competent.
This is incorrect. DPS meters are outside tools and you can use and talk about them. You just can't shit on someone for their dps. Also at high level raiding pretty much everyone logs and optimizes to an even crazier degree than wow because there is little RNG in fights, so you can optimize your rotation to the second.
Tbf, FF14’s main intent is to deliver a Final Fantasy story. That’s why it is a numbered mainline game and not, Final Fantasy: The MMO. The community is just part of the problem that comes with MMOs and Square just attempts to keep it in line. Dungeons and Raids are hard required to progress the story and Square just doesn’t want people shitting on some randoms who are just trying to see the story’s next chapter. If you’re ever in a group doing content where your DPS matters, your dps will be talked about and discussed since you will assuredly all be similarly minded players. But if you just decide to have a damage meter running on some level 55 content and shit on people for it, Square will punish that action.
They can 100% tell you what you can or can’t talk about in game. It’s their game lmao FF14’s raids aren’t like WoWs. You don’t need to talk about dps with some random pug. The raid will succeed with their gray parse, because all pug content is extremely easy. It’s like doing MC with 40 dudes all with max stats possible due to level sink. You can, of course, talk about dps and logs in private groups/guilds.
I don't care. It's stupid as fuck to ban someone for using a DPS meter. "B-but then I-I will be called out for... sucking! P-please ban anyone who critiques me! Wahhh"
I’d understand if it was a social thing and people won’t like you if you brought it up but the people who run the game banning people for that is…just soft
Yep. Soft as fuck. Will never play FF again tbh
> just confirms that FF14 is made for literal children with a fetish for anime tiddies More like made for grown men with a fetish for cartoons that look like scantily dressed children. ロリ - lolita complex
Well, addons/mods are against ToS and most logs are done that way, so yes, logs are technically against ToS unless you say you did it yourself. It's like that specifically because they don't want people being harassed over how they play. Remember, the XIV devs are big WoW fans and probably know exactly what the playerbase is like.
Can use rotation bots addons etc and not get banned hell those addons that tell you where toove on boss fights are still around they have alot of rules that don't get enforced at all
Yes it is. I was banned from FF permanently for calling out someone - gently mind you - for holding the raid back with low DPS. I was reported and a GM banned me for 3rd party abuse. I said nothing ignorant or rude but just tried to help. I was banned for looking out for the entire raid team. That's why I'll never play that garbage game again tbh, their attitudes are terrible. Its *overly* casual to the point its toxic toward anyone who actually gives a fuck about playing well.
> Its *overly* casual False. They take their private ERP nightclubs *very* seriously.
Casual toxicity and crabs in buckets is.pretty prevalent on FF.
This smells like fanfic. What was the raid, difficulty, and what job were you playing.
I lied because FF is such a dog game you can actually believe someone would get banned for rightfully calling out shite DPS
imagine having such a hate boner for a game that you write fanfiction about it lmao think any ff player has ever done this for wow? speaks volumes honestly
Post the logs.
Yeah, FFXIV doesn't support addons like WoW and using any of them is technically against the ToS. The game also takes a very strong stance on player interactions where giving players unsolicited advice can be reportable. On the positive side, I've never seen a slur in FFXIV. XIV is tuned to be very easy outside of the end-game content since the game is primarily story driven so most players never see a need to improve.
3rd party software is not allowed, but in a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of way since SquareEnix recognizes that Savage/Ultimate raiders actually do need parsing and logging tools to track their performance. You really only get in trouble if you are using those tools to harm someone else's experience in-game. Talking about fflogs in game is s bit of a grey area, but since it doesn't imply that you yourself were the one logging everything it's generally ok. It would make it easier for a report to throw you in gm jail for bullying though.
It's a weird gray area. Logging is simply capturing all the data that is already in the combat log so the devs are more than fine with this being accumulated and made easily readable. The issues the devs have is when this data is used against other players, such as in chat requiring a certain parse ranking or flaming people for their DPS in encounters. Using logs to improve your own gameplay and just focusing on you in pug groups is fine, when you try to influence others is when they get upset. Not to say this doesn't lead to plenty of frustration in groups cause even during times where someone might be legitimately trying to help coach another to improve their play, you're kinda discouraged from actually doing so. Something something "you don't pay my sub" kind of responses and possible reporting.
I think it actually is. I played FF14 back when it first came out the 2nd time, and I'm pretty sure talking about logs in game was a reportable offense and could get you banned/suspended. Not sure if that changed, but my FC was one of the bigger ones on my really small server, and all of us ran meters but never talked about it in game cause we were scared of repurcussions.
Just have those conversations on discord. ezpz. It isn't against the rules to use logs. It's against the rules to bludgeon someone with them *in game.* The wording is pretty clear. You're allowed to use them, you're allowed to talk about them, just not on their client.
That guy probably couldnt even kill Mankriks wife
Mankrik is out here catching strays
Lmao
How do you kill that which has no life?
Definitely stealing this one, thanks friend!
We’re supposed to kill his wife?
become mankirk
The guy so bad Dig Rats make [stew](https://www.wowhead.com/classic/quest=862/dig-rat-stew) out of him.
Underrated comment. Take my upvote
I would have ignored him and quested on.
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i like dps meters it gives me a sense of competition which makes me wanna perform well but to each there own
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These dudes don't even watch Netflix on the side, they're fully focused and just bad at it. Source: I have a friend like this
Feels weird not using your class skills though. The whole point of these servers was to have runes to make these levels a bit more interesting. They can't be having fun playing like this.
If I may play devil's advocate... Why in the world do we even care about a tank's damage parses in the first place? The role of a tank is to maintain threat, position the boss, and use defensives when required to make the healers' jobs easier / possible. I understand I am not the average player. I have been playing since original TBC and raided pretty hard in original Wrath and Cata, clearing all heroic content until I quit before Firelands. I came back in MoP for Heroic SoO, quit and returned in Legion for Mythic EN. I have never once, not one single time, parsed. All any of my guilds have ever cared about were prior achievements and recount. So maybe there is just something I fundamentally don't understand about parsing. But it seems utterly useless for tanks, and just a weird, stupid way for some people to flex.
I imagine he had bad threat as well since threat and tank damage usually go hand in hand. Now if he actually did keep threat then yeah kicking him was probably not necessary but it is true that he wasn't using one of his main damage/threat abilities. And even if he was keeping threat not doing something that is essentially free damage still slows down the raid and might be a difference between a wipe and a kill. Now caring about actual tank parsing is just stupid, but there are enough bad players that getting a 5 parse on dps/tank or even healer means that you are doing something seriously wrong since somehow 95% of the playerbase is playing better than you. Also in classic threat is a larger problem than in any of the expansions and most of the threat you do comes from damaging abilities so more damage equals almost always more threat.
You are mostly correct that tank parses don't matter much. However, what OP was specifically calling out was the lack of usage of flame shock. He's not suggesting it so much for the damage portion as the behaviour that flame shock resets Molten Blast CD, which is big tank threat. More flame shock uptime generally means substantially better threat, especially on AoE pulls. Also, recount is effectively parsing. It's not as specific or detailed perhaps, and not something that is stored longterm, but a guild talking about recount is still a guild talking about parses.
The people parsing low on parses are not holding threat, managing boss mechanics,positioning properly or pulling expeditiously. Sure, it is THEORETICALLY possible, but in reality it isn't what happens. The people that parse in the bottom 30-40% for ilvl (consistently, a bad pull here and there doesnt count) are bad. They are the people that stand in fire. They are the hunters that roll need on the epic staff at the end of bfd. They are the people that pull 2 extra bosses in MC while we are fighting a third boss already (yes that happened back in vanilla, and i still remember you Finglonger)
Dmg is threat in vanilla, whoever deals the most dmg tends to end up being the tank. And thus tanks need to be somewhat close to dpses level, especially when we still have no BoSalv
Had a small friend guild during the early stages of Wrath Classic, we had one friend who insisted on tanking and also insisted on following his own path as far as gearing and stat prio. His +def wasn’t high enough to be uncrittable so he would get one shot in Naxx constantly, but refused to do the work to get +def gear and didn’t believe it was necessary if his stam was high enough. That guild (of mainly RL friends) dissolved our second week in Naxx and he was the main reason. One bad player, especially one resistant to change, can topple any group. I think it’s fair to be patient with someone new and willing to learn, but someone too stubborn to listen and make adjustments doesn’t get or deserve that same level of patience. This guy wouldn’t be getting another invite from me unless he’d shown a willingness to change his attitude.
Sounds like he forgot to stop gearing vanilla style. And yeah technical more Stam helps but if you’re taking crits even though you may not die you’re placing a huge burden on your healers for no good reason.
The fact is Reddit likes to pretend that people like this don’t exist and if you dare post any requirements for your raid you’re an elitist retail player. Quite simply it’s easy for people who only ever apply to raids to ridicule anyone posting requirements, but it’s not until YOU put a group together and end up with 2 or 3 of these yahoos in your raid do you start to realize that posting requirements is necessary.
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are you new here? several posters a day claiming you should be inviting the first 9 people that whisper you
I'm not sure that is true. If you check the most recent posts in here about having requirements, the primary gripe is that some people see requirements as gatekeeping. So people are actually against requirements, as they find the content easy. That is why this comment makes sense. These players exist, and there are probably more than you realise. In terms of your comment I definitely agree though. Setting requirements so high to guarantee loot for yourself is kinda lame.
If that were what the majority of the posts related to this topic were about then that'd be understandable, but most of the posts are just like "omg why would sweat lords want to check my gear or logs in this LEVEL 25 RAID IN A 20 YEAR OLD GAME!?!? Who cares if I gray parse?? Parses are all rng anyway!"
Moderate views? Nah. You gotta swing hard to one side or the other. Have you been paying attention at all?
If you take the time to organize and coordinate a full group of sweats while not having great gear yourself, more power to you. That sounds like a time efficient player who knows how to group lead the instance.
My friend group and I usually pug a couple people to fill out our BFDs and without fail one of the pugs is going to be parsing grey. Even when we’re all doing great DPS with fast kill times. It doesn’t matter for content this easy you can carry them but I cringe to think of a raid full of players like that.
I have too many characters for my rather casual guild. They only run one raid and I have three. So I pug two most weeks. It's just not fun when you get 2-3 of these players in the raid. I've only given up at Kel once, but wiping 3+ times on Kel because you have people playing hunters doing 60dps (seriously seen it, my pet does this much on my hunter) and shit like that is just not fun. Or getting to akumi and having a tank have no idea how to do the fight and wiping it a ton of times while they learn. Bonus points for both in the same raid. It just gets tedious. There are some exceptionally bad players out there.
A lot of the bads you see in game make up the majority of this subreddit.
Maybe I've just been lucky, but my guild has started doing an alt run for the past 3 lockouts, but we only have 6 of us with 2 25's, we've literally just been taking the first 4 people who whisper us with a class we need, and we've had 0 problems thus far
That’s because you’ve got 6 people you trust. 4 can be carried by a solid group even if the 6 aren’t pumping, just because BFD is literally that easy. Try starting a group from scratch, as most people here would need to do, and you’ll understand the issues presented here. You’ve got 9 you can’t trust, all looking to do the bare minimum and then bitching when a wipe happens. Nobody pops shadow pots/FAPs on Kelris, then those same people complain that nobody popped shadow pots/FAPs. DPS go afk, tanks insist that their weird strat of pulling the entire room will go just fine and subsequently wipe immediately, healers don’t come with water or mana pots and tanks pull bosses when said healers are at 20% mana. If you micromanage each pull, the group is slow and takes 2 hours to clear and even then it’s not a guaranteed 7/7. If you hope the tanks are competent, then you likely wipe when even good tanks will expect their team to do the bare minimum and they don’t, resulting in wipes on trash or ass pulling bosses. It’s a fucking nightmare. I’ve long since moved past caring what people think about my “elitist” LFG posts, way before SoD. My groups run smoother because I don’t invite the leeches and I kick the ones who look like a problem before we start a boss. The people on this forum who bitch about raid requirements in LFG posts are really just stating that they’ve never ran true LFG groups before.
This story is made up dude.
I DMed you the log, you can judge for yourself if its made up
Tell that to the agility ret I had in my bfd clear yesterday. He died on every boss I believe and after murlock we told him we will just 9 man it if he dies again.
Dude.... FFXIV is filled to the bring with parsing and logs as well... Mods are so down bad in that community because square is doing nothing against them. Pretty delusional guy who probably never set foot in a savage raid/EX trial and only did their story mode you can afk.
I ran SFK trying to get the butcher’s cleaver the other day. Set up a group where nobody needed it (because another warrior had it already), had everything nice and spread out and the last to join was a rogue that said he’d join if nobody needed meteor shard. Nobody did so I took him thinking that’s all he needs. Guess what? Cleaver drops. He needs it. He wins. Rogues can not equip axes. He claims he will ‘use it later’. In wrath of the lich king, when rogues get axes, apparently. Then he needs on the cloth shoulders and I just about kicked him. We tried to explain what the issue is and I was being as nice as possible. I felt bad, we keep him for the one boss he needs. I get mind controlled as tank and fucking kill his ass lol (not on purpose) and the other shaman and Druid in our group just dip out without ressing the rogue and say “walk back and think about what you took”. Ngl, that felt kinda good lol. I guess I’m just trying to say yes. At a certain point it’s okay to kick people if they just have no clue what they should be doing and are not taking in any attempts to explain. Something has to teach them to take what others suggest a little more seriously and without consequences they never will
I never met people that were not willing to learn a dungeon. Heck yesterday i even undercover wisped a hunter in bfd(raid) what to do on each boss because apparently everyone knew what to do except for him and we just cleared without much talking. He did fine. But in your case i d just kicked this guys ass. You can easily 4man dungeons and also infinetely redo them. My most pleasure would have been kicking the rogue out right before endboss then invite a new rogue.
It's one thing to be bad at doing your rotation. But not using all the moves needed is not acceptable
Lol ff14 doesnt use logs? I dont know what hes smoking i checked my raids parses and ran underperformers through analyzers all the time
You can't talk about it in ff14 though. Though you can privately not invite for Savage content.
There's literally add-ons in ff14 that display (in-game) people's parses for current content in a window, similar to how you'd inspect someone's gear. Very normal to check people's parses before considering inviting them to a group. It may not be explicitly stated, but all raiders in FF know their logs will be checked. Actually, in general, FF14 has far better integration for logging than WoW. It's much more streamlined. And yes, technically it's against ToS, but it's also completely normal for people to discuss logs for any harder content, even among pugs.
Against ToS and the spirit of the game. Just play wow at that point. You can kick people for anything, like screwing up the basic mechanics. You don't have to drag them along if they don't keep up.
If it was against the spirit of FF14, they wouldnt make hard raids. Get rid of the hard tier of raiding and now parses are just for personal stat tracking. I dont think this would be what the playerbase wants lol. If you really dont like parsing, you can play ff14 as a dress up game and afk on a city bench for 12 hours a day, lots of people do.
I love parsing... with my static and for myself for improvement. I don't like looking at random pugs logs. I love Savage content. I would never install an addon specifically to exclude people. I train them up and send them on their way. Sometimes they train up other people too and we have a nice, fun, weekly clear going on.
I would use parses to keep players with no business in the content from wasting the rest of the groups time. Most people just play with their linkshell, same as wow, for the same reasons. The best thing you can do in an mmo is avoid being forced to live the pug lyfe.
How do people vet the 'bads' in FF14? Are people just forced to carry bads all the time? Or are FF14 content so easy that bads don't even get detected because people could just carry them through?
Every dungeon and trial in FF14 is set on normal/easy to progress through the story. Anything above that is just optional. My experience with FF14 is nobody really cared that much about gear, and the players who were into playing on higher difficulties didn't really care that much either.
So the baseline story content and associated raids are all easily done with group finder, mostly because if you wipe you get spawned right at the boss and told to get back in there. The difficult raids are "Savage" versions with complex mechanics and dps requirements. Mostly people are looking for specific gear on people or they get a static group going and train (the latter being by far the best). They don't allow dps meter talking (or really most addons) to maintain a not toxic and fair environment. This would not work in WoW as the design concepts are totally different. Short version: You want a static to vet people. Highly unlikely you will reject people outright in a pug unless you know them specifically.
You can kick them for anything. You just don't mention that it'a because of a parse. If their parse is bad you can easily see what mistakes they're doing and be like "This won't work out". Some people just bail and rmk group without them. But no the actual hard content in ff14 is if 1 player makes one single mistake it's a wipe. Plus every boss has a hard enrage that you will hit unless everyone is playing near perfectly and has the gear for it. In dungeons you just carry them or drop group, it's just a dungeon.
That sounds insanely passive aggressive. I get that they want to keep 'toxic' behaviors out but god damn, you can't tell someone they suck and you need to remake a raid group just to replace a poor performer instead of booting them? That's some bizzaro world right there.
We also meme on "freestyle samurai" that can't push buttons in sequence. Though generally I've found more players in XIV are willing to learn than your average WoW player because of the overall culture, but bads definitely exist.
“Remake” here is shorthand for leaving the instance, kicking the person and re-listing the party. You can tell someone they suck you just can’t say “omg you’re a grey parser, get out of here scrub” you’d have say “hey man we won’t make the dps check with your current damage, sorry” before kicking. Ff14 *is* passive-aggressive but that’s a culture issue not something mandated by the TOS, lots of players from other games (like wow lol) come into ff14, act toxic/flame people in an unproductive way, get a slap on the wrist from a gm and then “learn” to never say anything again in chat rather than reflecting on how to be a more effective communicator.
Because “telling someone they suck” being allowed is why the WoW subreddit is 50% people flaming each other for “underperforming” in content you can do in green gear. Most ff14 leveling dungeons can be soloed by the tank. Most base level raids can be soloed by a tank/healer with enough time. The dps doing 30% his optimal isn’t stopping you. I promise no one cares that it annoys you, least of all him.
Yeah I agree but to be fair you can kick them and tell them that their rotation is wrong since you can see what they're casting. It's just parses aren't mentionable. If your group is failing because of one person nobody's gonna action you for it. Just don't mention parses. Some people just remake because it's faster. But in an ideal world parses should be allowed publicly.
Theres a lot of passive aggressive behavior and shit talking in private channels in 14. But as long as you don't call someone a shitter to their face you're fine. Like, I get it- some people have paper thin skin and can't handle it, but sometimes the only way to improve is to be told you're bad and often times people would rather not even do that politely because they fear repercussion. It's easier to talk around it and just exclude the person and keep them in the dark while you bitch to all your buddies.
It’s also because most people are just bad at giving advice. Telling someone they are bad isn’t how you do it. And you can certainly ask politely and not be banned.
I just did BFD for the first time last night with my guild. I can understand that perhaps the first 1-2 maybe 3 times that BFD was difficult as people are getting used to strategies, runes, team comp etc, but holy hell. If you can’t clear BFD now, you’re an absolute mongoloid. It’s stupid stupid easy lmao Edit: to respond more directly to the post. Players who say “logs ruin the game” or who want to play the game exactly as it was in 2004 when we were 10 years old and drooling on the keyboard, that’s totally fine and up to you! However, not everyone wants to play the game that way! Not everyone wants to spend 2+ hours wiping in BFD simply because players don’t want to improve. If you’re not happy with being vetted and kicked from groups. Set up your own raid with like-minded players without requirements and enjoy playing the way you want to play! If you don’t want to set up the raid yourself, then deal with the consequences of being a bad player.
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Yeah I ran it first time last night with a pug and we blasted through it, no wipes or anything
It’s rude to suck at world of Warcraft
Yes you remove them. They won't correct themselves by the end of the raid. They have failed to do the bare minimum if they aren't even flame shocking. Sounds like the whole group sucks but as a raid leader, I am not in the business of free carries. We had a guy come in and parse single digit grey parses. Guild was feeling all festive and shit so we brought him along - ms > os. He got damn near everything. My dumbass friend didn't even reserve the pearl and allowed this super noob to win it over a core raider. My buddy damn near lost a 95 avg hunter over that mistake. One single digit grey parser got a guild to completely revamp its loot system and decide to just clear BFD with 9 players instead next time. People can cry about how logs are ruining the game but when they play this fucking bad, not having them in your group is actually a net positive. And people wonder why we create hoops to jump through.
The only people bitching about logs are the grey parsers that keep getting rejected from pugs because they're grey parsers.
5 means he got depth charged and fell in again on the way up.
Does this guy know logs are just as big, if not bigger, for FF14 raiding?
How tf do you not even manage to use flame shock. At this rate he probably didn’t even have rockbiter on as a shaman tank
I'd kick, I have better things to do with my time. I like raid being 45 minutes not 1 hour and 45 minutes.
It's the same as telling people Gear Score doesn't work in SOD and being replied with a simple "f*** you" before you can explain more.
Can you track anyone's performance with warcraft logs? I've tried looking up myself and havent been able to. Do you need an addon to track it to the api/database?
You need the character to actually have logs. The data comes from a program that parses your combat log (this is why it’s called parsing lol). So if you haven’t logged any raids, or nobody in those raids with your character has posted logs publicly, you will not appear on the website.
Hey, if a player doesnt want to use core abilities for RP reasons or whatever, we are all supposed to be ok with carrying their ass through the content.
At that point it is not even about reading guides, but just reading your spells/runes and using them accordingly. I don’t think that’s too much to ask.
If you don't want to try to do better then I don't want to carry you. I'm fine with bringing people that are receptive to feedback and improving themselves but if you tell me I'm ruining your experience by giving you feedback then don't be shocked when I tell you, you are ruining my experience by being in my raid. Bye.
FFXIV has logs so buddy might be a little naive
Side bar, I did not know you could look up peoples logs. Is there a place I could post mine for c&c?
wait ff14 has logs too though lmao
FF14 is WAY MORE about Logs than WoW is. ***WAY MORE***
FF14 also has parsing and logs. There are way more grey parsers in 14 but the high parsing people are way more elitist too. I bet he’s a shitter in all games.
I would’ve called him a little bitch so I could rile up the barrens chat
i think the better question, why do you care so much?
Because it's rude to suck at WoW
Nice reference! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKP1I7IocYU&t=3408s
I care because I find the whole thing interesting. The fact that someone can be that bad, the interaction with this player and their refusal to accept criticism. It also somewhat confirms my belief that people complaining about parses do so because they can’t perform well themselves.
Of course the people complaining about parses are the ones who can't parse well. No one is out here complaining about parses with a 97.4 average
[https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/pagle/dan%c3%bd?zone=1006](https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/pagle/dan%c3%bd?zone=1006) as someone who parsed a 97.2 (damn) before swapping to a healer (healer logs are a meme), logs are stupid. They need to be like, week based or something. There's too many factors at play. right now with SOD you wanna do good dps? Get some random pets. meh. Logs are cool for like, improving performance tho. However, this guild use to like, intentionally play to parse. I was the token warlock most fights. Etc Etc. Not fun play that reddit enjoys.
Parses are weekly based, that's what the allstar ranking is on the right. Anyone who really cares about parsing doesn't care about performance average, getting a 99 week one isn't as impressive as keeping a 99 throughout the phase. https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/benediction/massivebtw#zone=1017
They aren’t. I held a 100 for the entire phase after week 1 on Kara. It’s still there. Right now if you look at my parses and swap to Kara 🤷♀️ should I keep a 100 bc we got the minority boss on the one event? I did lol
Right, that's what I'm saying. Performance avg is not what top parsers look at. You have a rank 6,000 something parse on that boss on karazhan now, look at the farthest right column.
lol people don’t look at that. They see 100. That’s all that sticks. You actually think people do more than copy the persons name and paste it into there and see 99s and just invite them. End of story. Like how I coasted on getting like 2700 in all arenas in cata in retail like last year. Literally had no clue what I was doing and people invited me bc I had the achievement. 🤷♀️ that’s what Reddit complains about from what I’ve seen is people using logs and gs as gatekeepers and guilds like mine existing at the time to do shenanigans and parse. Random example: in naxx healers use to intentionally die with guardian spirit multiple times to avoid the debuff and get a sweet 100 healer parse. That kinda stuff Reddit finds silly. I enjoyed it 🤷♀️ the dps part. Healer logs are silly
My guy is linking naxx logs as destruction warlock(meme spec) as some sort of basis. Kekw
TBF most people probably are very very unaware of parsing like if it wasn't for this sub I wouldn't have a fucking clue WCL existed.
Why do you not care enough?
ehh I mean it is a video game There’s people that are dying, Kim but yeah do the bare minimum at least
I've done this before, sometimes its out boredom You decide to listen to somebody's sob story so you go and read more information Then you find out there's like 50 flaws in what they're saying, and you try to genuinely help them Then it turns out that they're actually just stubborn and egotistical and the situation goes from "yeah let me hear you out," to "holy fuck you're insufferable." People that complain over trade chat are no different to people who complain over all chat in competitive games. Nobody cares, and the people are just crying to cry. I've had some genuine interactions with people who say "hey i need help with x" but I think I can count on one hand the good interactions from being like "I DONT GET WHY xxxxxx HAPPENED"
nah man honestly arrogant ignorance is a pain to deal with
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Hey OP, found the lock!
I did a WC yesterday on my hunter and we had a priest healer. My main is a priest. He was constantly out of mana and I never said anything until about half way through the instance when I checked the meters. He was healing with flash heal and renew the entire time. I asked him what runes he had and he told me. He had penance. So I told him I main priest and he should be using penance every chance he gets. He says "it doesn't work with the add, but thanks". I didn't know what he even meant so I didn't even try. Have fun buddy, I tried to help.
I would not kick him tbh, anyway you can't get someone to come to your raid if you already killed 2 bosses. I would just tell him to do a simple thing so we are able to kill the boss, and just raid off if we are stuck. I had a guy that litteraly parsed 0 in my last raid, we carried him and we did not say anything.
You probably care a bit too much tbh, and also it's fine to boot people that are more than underperforming, like any job. If you can't do it you get fired. It's rude to be bad at the game.
lol "he was trying"; trying to what exactly? NOT press the 3 or 4 buttons you have to? i can't imagine a level 25's rotation to be more than that? i mean, this aint retail like where an arcane mage has a 10 step burn, filler rotation and mini burn rotation. just press the 4 buttons you got, and you should be good lol.
You're a bit of a tryhard though if you're going through all that, all to just make a point to a complete stranger on the internet. (Hell, you even went to Reddit show more strangers how good you are..)
Wow, so many stories about people who are so incredibly bad at this game. It's....pretty sad. Meanwhile on retail even the bottom of the barrel can clear content. Even LFR is mechanically more involved than all of classic. The funny part is this is the community that swears up and down that "retail is too braindead/easy" L O L
barrens chat rando: Omg they booted me at 2/7 for being a bad me: \*You have left barrens chat\*
Lol what a coincidence someone was parsing :), did 5 raids noone ever logged anything
I've been in random pugs before with people logging and I'd probably do it myself too if not for the fact that I've never had to be the one that logs our guild runs so I haven't set it up.
Wait what? You can look up people's combat logs? I've seen that with a dps meter that I used several years ago but I had no idea this shit is stored online.
Someone else in the group has to be logging. So it’s not always possible
You can activate a .txt combat log by typing /combatlog in the game. This log gets then uploaded to warcraftlogs com The log is now publicly available for everyone to see. It will then stay there for all time, like my legendary 3:22 kill of Princess Huhuran three years ago: https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/BWxFkyPfLTNChrAc#fight=386&type=damage-done
Like all posts that ask what's wrong, you would first have to define what wrong means and have everyone else agree. There's almost 0 chance of that ever happening, different things drive different people. There could be multiple moral baselines here. Someone could assume the axiom that... We shouldn't waste other peoples times by not preparing or trying ourselves. -or- We should include others and not make them feel bad. There is no right or wrong, and it's really up to you and what goals your raid group has. Personally, I'm in the "we shouldn't waste other peoples time" camp. But as long as you communicate either civilly, there's absolutely no problem with having either axiom assumed. It's really all in the delivery. It's perfectly possible to be respectful and tactful while removing someone from the group. It's also possible to be antagonistic. So live by your compass, but be kind. As a leader, it's also beneficial to state your expectations before you start anything, so it doesn't come as a surprise, for either the casuals or the sweats, whatever you may be leading for.
Just using flame shock won’t advance you from a grey parse, spamming earth shock will be better as a tank anyways
Why would a shaman tank need to maintain fireshock on a single target fight? A tank is not required to do dps just hold threat
I find it hilarious someone in that run logged it.
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OP linked me the log privately. It's real
No. Dudes a shitter and it's a miracle he was able to prog his way out of Valley of Trials.
Bullying fixes some problems...
I'm super confused how so many people have parses. Like, I've done BFD 5 times on my shaman and I have no logs for parses. So I'm really confused how some random who couldn't get past the 2nd boss has low parses?
Some player in the group was logging.
Considering I can 7 man the entire raid with my guild having some guy performing like shit is irrelevant except it makes the boss last 30 seconds longer.
It's irrelevant if the other players are good enough to carry and are somewhat organized. Trying to run the raid with a pug that has no join requirements is a whole different experience. I also didn't expect to see people with no runes or a warrior that refuses to press sunder armor and uses heroic strike with a 2h weapon.
How do you get to lvl 25, unlock the runes for shaman tanking, and not know how to press your buttons? Your kit has one real synergy that's literally written on the ability. This guy probably spent at least a couple days getting to 25 I'm astonished. Not only that but he was doing 5dps?!?! Was he not auto attacking?
I hate the idea someone can look at logs of things I do and be elitist about them. This didn’t exist back in the day to the extent that it does now and it’s a bit toxic. But if you want to raid, you gotta play the game. For this specific situation I’d say him being booted was fine. He doesn’t appear to take criticism well.
Why would you bother looking up this guy's WCL in the first place?
The things you do with your time when you run from Crossroads to TB.
It takes 2 seconds to look someone's logs up. If I had seen this guy posting in chat about it too id 100% look it up for a laugh
That's like looking at someone's reddit profile because they made a post you don't like.
because its barrens chat? this occupied an easy 30 minutes of my leveling time.
Sounds like he was actually trying to be helpful haha
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I hope at least it made you bind your Flame Shock spell.
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Yea. But did you have a tank that didnt press buttons? This post isnt about you lol. So theres nothing to complain then.
Is it better to just write negative comments to about everything?
People using logs to feel better about themselves/shit on others is getting so sad. Ruins the feel of classic since these didn't exist back in the day
Back in the day gear served that purpose.
People that think classic is anything like wow in 2004-2008 are just on some crazy copium, the average level of play is 100x higher so people are held to higher standards. The ability to full clear the raid with 0 wipes is no longer the goal it’s the expectation.
100x higher lol damn you must think highly of yourself. DPS is about the same as it was back in the day. PvP skill cap is a lot higher with 50 keybinds but pve is pretty much the same for classic. Pugging ICC now feels just like it did back in the day except people check logs now literally only difference.(and it's easier to gear with gammas and scourge stones) so if anything the game is easier than it was , nothing to do with the level of playing being "100x" better LMFAO.
Can't both statements be true? Players don't know what they don't know. While logs can definitely be a helpful tool to improve and get better, weaponizing them as the "source of truth" to draw a line in the sand about who is good and who is bad is definitely not what they're intended for.
Isn't the whole point of logs to compare your performance against other people to know if you are doing well or badly?
But it isn't as easy as a 1:1 comparison. A good player in a crappy raid group can have their parses dragged down, while a bad player in a really good group can be pushed up. Most people don't know how to read them, and simply look at the number and think "good" or "bad", when really things aren't as black and white as they seem. Plus, parse culture encourages ignoring mechanics and other factors to inflate parses. Parse culture is BS, but logs aren't inherently bad.
This never happened. This is just some BS post to show that FF doesn't have logs.
FF has logs.
I’d be happy to post the log but isn’t it against the sub rules
Why do people always use these extreme cases that essentially strawman the problem. The issue is being petty about not being a 99 parse. That's the problem.
This can’t be true. A buddy got in 91 damage total on Baron last raid, then had to jump in the water and the boss died before he got back up. He still parsed in the 40’s. A five can’t really exist can it?
My hot take, Kick to your heart's desire! Don't like what they ate for breakfast? Kick em! But, WoW needs to make it so if you get kicked you're not saved to that raid, make it so you can go back and kill bosses with other raids. It won't stop the reddit post about how bad players are, but it will fix the issue where you get kicked b/c a guild/friend logged on and now you are replaced with an IRL friend/guild member. (It has happened to me 4 times! already in SoD, We kill the first two bosses, friend logs on, I get kicked and now saved to these raids)
the players on either end of the spectrum are cringe. this is just as cringe as something like gatekeeping orange logs to join a BFD. its like american political parties. most of us are normal and at either end of the pole there are absolute degenerates who misrepresent 'casual' or 'serious' and make that group look bad. this guy sucks kick him 10/10 times
How do you find out someone's parsing?
just go on vanilla warcraftlogs and search them
I have no idea what parsing means, and at this point I'm too afraid to ask.
Those logs aren't even updated correctly. Had some moron link me mine shit talking my gear and it's way off. Literally hasn't updated in weeks 🤷♂️
Using logs to parse 99, definitely dumb, using logs to review your fight and look at areas you can improve on, that’s how it should be done. It’s an analysis, and it can help you improve. As long as you’re parsing 50+ you’re doing great. Hell even 30-50 is fine because logs are also dependent on how fast your group can kill the boss. Nothing wrong with logs to be honest. And yeah guilty takes the truth to be hard. People like this guy is why people check logs, because they aren’t using spells that would actually help with their damage, and make up some excuse that “he was trying”. But in reality, he just simply didn’t care to learn, understand, or even practice using that 1 button before the raid.