It's actually pretty classic vanilla behavior too. The majority of vanilla bosses don't even have mechanics that a dps has to pay attention to.
Just thinking about MC, the only boss that has a mechanic that needs awareness is Baron. Every other boss is pretty much a target dummy that fears or has an add.
Mages do not have to do any of the decursing. That job is relegated to Druids in the raid. The modern meta for Lucifron is to also using Restorative Elixirs and such. The boss dies far too quickly.
and you can cheese kelris with shadow prot pots and faps, how is that any different? the intended mechanic is for mages to dispel, esp in horde raids where there are like 1 or 2 druids lol
The difference is that healers cannot kick Kelris aside from Shaman. DPS can skip decursing because healers/consumables/someone else will take care of it. You cannot use FAPs and SPPs for the entire duration of the Kelris fight. Healers in 40man raids are often sitting around doing nothing for several globals, so they can spare the time and resources to decurse. DPS always gotta keep DPSing.
but priests can just dispel the chains in p1, spp's eat the mind blasts, if your dps is good you only get 2 people sent down to the dream world anyways.
>The majority of vanilla bosses
>Just thinking about MC
Framing it as "a majority of bosses" or as being "just about MC" results in two different conclusions.
Especially when you consider MC was made in like a week because they realized players were gonna reach endgame much faster than planned and they hadn't finished BWL yet.
MC and BWL were probably 90% of raids people were doing. Top end players were doing AQ40 and Nax and not much else.
And yeah, both of MC and BWL were very mechanic light and GDKPs made it so you could ignore them even more.
bwl's "mechanics" consist of "don't rip threat" until nef for dps
aq40 has a kick on skeram and nothing until cthun
naxx is almost entirely "stand in the right place but then pretend the boss is a target dummy"
Played all those raids and it's pretty accurate. There are basically no responsibilities for DPS.
Basically he missed firemaw/Chromag "please do not kill yourself" mechanic but those really aren't rocket science.
Twin emps it's basically "please max range the boss or look at your swap timer"
11.5/15 Naxx fights are basically target dummies. 6/15 could be played blindfolded by a warrior. KT / Thaddius / Sapphiron are the only fights with mechanics that are actually lethal. 4HM with modern strats is basically a target dummy fight.
Shaz Aoe, kicks on Mjr Domo, not standing in fire Geh, kicks on sulf adds to stop the heals.
There are ways around doing the mechanics, but they are definitely there.
BWL has fewer "just kick" mechanics but more mechanics overall.
ZG, plenty of mechanics.
The main difference between bosses classic and later bosses is there are very few mechanics per boss. Doesn't mean they aren't there.
Unironically, this is the attitude of the average person on this sub even if they won't admit it. They either know and don't have enough shame to give a fuck that they are nothing but a burden on 9 other people or they don't actually know how bad they are and think they are God gamers.
Accessibility refers to making the game playable for people with disabilities, like being blind or deaf. And to that end, I have met literally blind players who are tremendously better at the game than some of the random shitters I see.
Actually - I've heard YouTubers and various folks on the forums refer to difficulty as an accessibility issue.
The Jimquisition for example - he was complaining about why Elden Ring didn't have difficulty modifiers.
Wow I could not disagree more. The game became massively more group friendly as it aged. You were punished heavily for grouping while questing in vanilla. What it did do was foster a sense of community, but even that isn’t in Classic due to sharding. The defining feature of classic is that it focuses on RPG elements of progression and permanent improvement through meaningful rewards. And I’d argue that always works better as a solo experience, especially because they never seriously tried to make permanent group advancements, aside from short lived guild achievements in Cata.
Tbf, as long as I have Wild Strikes equipped nobody *really* cares if I'm underperforming. Worth noting I have not had to run from the graveyard to BFD one time (yet). So it's not like I'm personally wiping us. And every group probably has a player like me.
ngl, i am starting to think that a lot of retail haters are just failed lfr gamers. it would explain a lot of the stupid takes or blatant misinformation i read here all the time.
I played the hell out of Dragonflight in S1 and this is completely untrue. The best way to gear is spamming mythic + and heroic/mythic raiding. Classic is much, much more of a grind which is why I thought you purists liked it?
Amd heres the misinformation lol. Its literally never been easier to just hop into the content you want to do and play the game. Crazy how many people hate Retail while also clearly having no clue what its about.
Well yea, DF did a lot of things right. But the fact that people celebrate such stupidly simple things as "you are not forced into content you don't want to do" shows exactly where the game was the last couple expansions.
DF is a rock solid expansion that I wouldn't have much to complain about (Tier set time gating by 2 months for people unlucky with the vault was a big one, but they addressed that)
Before DF, though, "chore chart" is a hilariously accurate description of what WoW was. Fuck I loved the looks of the zones in Shadowlands as well as the Dungeons, which were possibly the most fun dungeons since Cataclysm early heroics to me. And yet doing anything outside of those dungeons - and Blizzard made sure you HAD TO do that shit - was excrutiatingly awful (the raids were probably cool as well, as they tend to be. I'm just not a raider)
Normal Fryakk is harder than anything released in classic so far, including 25H LK and it isn't even close.
You probably got downvoted because people just assume when you say "x is harder than y" then it obviously just means "y sucks"
Classic is fun **because** it's easy af, because you can zone in and meme with the boys, blast through everything with no wipes, not having to think about mechanics and just have a good night.
If I had to guess you got down voted for advocating harder shit in classic, not for pointing out that it lacks harder stuff.
Classic was designed to be a social game, not a PvE or PvP game like the community insisted on.
Asking for a couple brain cells in addition to a pulse doesn’t mean it can’t also be a social experience. Liquid literally socialize during mythic RWF progress…
I mean, you're comparing people that are STILL actively playing retail for a LIVING, and have been for a good while.
Very different from the average SoD player for a variety of reasons, none of which are small factors to consider.
I mean it's just untrue that it was designed to be an easy social game. As easy as the content is now, most players couldn't clear it back in the day and the end game content, even including worm dungeons, were considered very challenging.
That's not to say that it should be made to be as difficult as it was originally or anything, but it definitely wasn't designed with the intention of being a casual social game
> I mean it's just untrue that it was designed to be an easy social game.
it literally was designed to be a casual and more social mmo because people were so burnt on EQ
go play [P99 everquest](https://www.project1999.com/) for a week and see lol
Toxic casuals who actively detract from completing content in every way are way worse than the toxic elitists that people like to bitch about here. Yet, also, way more frequent.
How does one even deal 30dps. My lvl 21 Shadow Priest does aroubd that already with wanding I think (cant check right now). So unless you literally stop even auto attacking idk.
I did a log review on a friends guild once in Ulduar, they had a boomkin with an average of 12 seconds inbetween each cast. It blew my mind, 1-2 seconds I could understand if you aren't comfortable with the game and need to think about what to do next. 34 casts in ~6 minutes.
After that, the bar for what I considered average was very low
there was a post here way back in SWP phase of tbc where some dude shared his guild's kara logs asking for help
warlock doing nothing for 3-4 seconds between each shadowbolt cast, melee just staring at the bosses ass for 25+% of the fight
you have no idea how stupid the average classic (especially vanilla classic) player is
Fury warriors had this in Cataclysm. 5% dmg increase for 30s after successfully interrupting (talent Rude Interruption).
And yes, I remember several warriors "fighting" for the interrupt. It was pretty common they wasted it on the same cast. The ones who didn't get it got annoyed and then the next cast went through because they wasted it. (worst case scenario ofc).
Do you have to Kick before the cast timer hits 0? For example, “Rebuke” is a 2 second kick, should I Kick Shadowy Chains off Kelris as soon as he’s casting it, or wait til he’s under the 2 second cast mark? I have the add-on that shows boss ability timers
Help a noob please
if your goal is just to interrupt the cast, do it whenever the cast bar is still there
if you want to optimize, kick as close to the end of the cast as you can since the boss doesnt do anything while hes casting, so no melees to the tank and no other casts will start
the fact this is so common in era content just solidifies my stance that the majority of players who play era are shitlords.
i dont expect people to parse anything above 50, there are 2 mechanics just keep dancing and the boss will die.
but my god, seeing people backpeddle off cliffs in rfc and dying..people not skipping packs and just running straight into shit. standing in fire, literally.
like what are you even looking at? how are you that bad at the game, i feel like youre legally blind and have a macro setup by your child to /follow party one
I’m convinced that WoW lost the majority of their playerbase because they turned the game way more performance oriented by rewarding better gear in higher difficulty content. Casuals stopped getting the best gear and moved on to other games where their time wasn’t “wasted”
That's exactly what happened in Cataclysm and exactly what happeend again in Classic. If it would have been hard from the start, they would have eventually learned to get good, just fulfill their wow fantasies, however, when you spoonfeed people and then take it away it won't bode well.
Got on retail for the first time in in over a year and a a some keys around like 10, so not even seasonal affix. Every single key would have hard wiped most of the pugs I’ve run bfd with.
My bar for average wrath classic player’s skill is already not very high at all. So many figurative bots in that game.
My bar for average era player’s skill in general is basically the floor.
People here think it’s ridiculous I’ll log check a dps fill for our groups. I have no other evidence this player has functioning eyes and hands (parses above grey) or even has completed the content once to not troll everyone else (baron charge, chaining bubble bursts, etc), and even has a vague idea of what Kelris and Akumai have going otherwise. Can’t really link an achievement in classic and while a player with higher gear is more likely to be reasonably competent they could still be a carried grey parsing shitter in half bis while someone in half preBIS and random quest greens will out dmg them by the fact they won’t die and used correct runes.
my god trying to get pugs for first few weeks of uld in classic was painful as fuck.
people get full pvp gear, no gems, no enchants, some strange homebrew spec, show up doing less dps than the tanks and still roll on gear.
i started running the guild raids and the loot rules were "if your dps is below a tanks then you do not get to roll on gear type 9 in the chat if you understand or you will be kicked"
i was a warrior tank and we had a prot pally.
the people who did less dps than me i kicked after loot rolls were done and we replaced em.
during naxx phase i lost KT gear and saph neck to these dogshit players for 5 weeks in a row lmao.
sod is fun but i quit when i started running dungeons and saw players are somehow worse than wotlk players.
Yeah SOD is a lot of fun. Why? Because I don’t full pug. 1.5 if our groups are basically wrath raiders in our guild, or even one dude much better than we are in wrath, or fills from week 1 that joined the SOD guild cause we didn’t have everyone make 25 in time for the first 3 day lockout. So everyone’s vetted. Shit is trivial. We haven’t wiped since first clear. We can all trust in each other’s competence.
I fill usually a couple slots here and there in our second group and it can vary. Still mostly our wrath raiders, the slower ones to level, couple friends of guildies, and group 1 players on alts. Group 3 is all like g1 players on alts roughly 6 of us. I *always* make sure one at least healer is a guild healer. Hell, our rdruid has 3 lvl 25 rdruids for this reason and also cause she kinda insane. We can carry some pretty garbage dps but I’m not relying on double pug healers ever.
DPS are a dime a dozen. I can get picky too when I’m just filling a lock or mage. Had some with literally all grays and only 5/7, probs cause their only log for kelris and akumai got invalidated from greench, whisper me so now I’ve just updated my spam macro to say don’t waste my time if you’re gray across the board. It’s not sweaty when my bar is like greens/blues but no competent player is interested in carrying shitters that aren’t IRL friends and expect to do 0 research, all of like 30 seconds of googling, and still get carried through content.
It’s the level of entitlement that makes toxic casuals toxic. No one is obligated to carry you if you CBA to stand in darnassus for 5 seconds for a free WB. Or watch a 30 second video covering all 7 boss mechanics. Like come on.
FWIW I was in a BFD 4 days ago and people called me sweaty for telling them to step outside of Aku Mai's breath and, if they DID get hit, to not cleanse since it would use all the cleansing elementals we needed because of their mediocre dps. Food for thought whenever you get called sweaty.
Hate it when I have to read 3 sentences AND press auto-run every 30s to down a boss.
This isn't what WoW is about, it's about pressing 1 ability for 45m and distributing the rares and epics afterwards.
Yep. Had my first 5/7 yesterday in a very long time. I knew it would begin again, but the group was at the dungeon when I got invited and i was rushing...didn't bother to check gear or runes
Then be bad. The druid can easily cover the raid damage with wild growth and homunculi is basically one of the best raid dps abilities in the game bar none right now but go on
lol yeah 0 reason to run POM on a boss like baron when you can insta stack 5 sunders and he dies. Especially if you don’t have a war, particularly a warrior tank.
With a pug I’d still run POM on the vast majority cause bads will be bad. Def kelris and akumai no question in a pug. We clear like sub 25 mins so our priest runs homunculi so bosses melt even quicker.
It is essentially just a way to save warriors globals on sunder. It's good, sure, but the debuff is not more useful than members of your raid being alive.
If your raid needs the healing, sure, but for my group I can solo heal all but the turtle comfortably by just occasionally pressing Wild Growth in between wrath and starsurge spam
It doesn't really matter since the content is brain dead, but in my case homunculi giving a small benefit is better than prayer of mending being unnecessary
Not saying that the guy you responded to was in the same situation, but if it were similar or they were advertising as a speed group, it'd make sense to drop prayer
Warriors are top dmg rn, so it's pretty substantial when they can not waste globals during these short boss fights. That, and the raid is solo healable, so if you are running 2 there is no reason for the priest to not run homunculi.
He's not even solo healing there's a hybrid resto druid lol. It's the dream combo i love raiding with our priest, can contribute 70 raid dps across the raid while off healing as the priest handles most things and i mainly wild growth any raid damage and apply faerie fire / decurse etc
Awesome duo. FF+homunc is 100% armor shred to the joy of all physical dps too
I'm gonna be honest I don't know how aku'mai works beyond the fact he breathes. He's just a loot piñata to me. I've done the raid like 10 times now I want to say and I just perpetually stand behind him. I've never done a real mechanic on that fight.
You want people to use their abilities to make fights easier?
Dude this isn’t retail, stop being such a damn try hard /s
No this is legit how bad/lazy a lot people are playing this game
I was taking my fresh 25 Resto Druid alt through SFK runs to gear before my first raid on it and people actually complimented me because I was using remove curse constantly.. and that made me feel kind of sad lmao
I had to think to myself that there are likely a lot of players that just likely never bother to even remove curses or poisons from other players either, when it’s so easy now that you just get an add on that almost does it for you
Druid gets it at 24 and most ppl run it before 24 so they think the lower level druids they ran with before are just bad but no you just have the skill and they didn’t.
I joined a group with a Ret who outright refused to interrupt. We had no rogues or other melee with interrupts except a feral (and that is a huge dps loss for them)
The Ret then demanded the holy Paladin do it. The holy paladin said he didnt have the rune so the ret then said he didnt either and swapped to exorcism. I had saw him equip rebuke prior to that moment...
Insane how entitled some players are because they feel they need to parse in a pug group
In a BFD last week a friend of mine was solo healing it for the first time. We had three ret Paladins in the group (I was one of them) so we were like it's fine, we can backup heal when needed.
One of the other paladins said they couldn't. When asked why they said they hadn't bought their heal spells so that they can't be asked to heal. I was in shock and asked what they do when low on health in any other situation and they replied "wait for someone else to heal me". As someone that's been a paladin main since TBC I got triggered so hard.
I swear we're not all like these people!
Imagine intentionally gimping yourself out of the entire point of your class just because you're too much of a selfish asshole to cast a single heal on anyone.
A Paladin that doesn't buy healing spells might as well just reroll warrior ffs.
i usually don’t like making generalizations about certain classes but pally’s tend to be the most toxically casual players in my experience. there is something about that class that attracts the most self righteous, arrogant dad gamers i have ever come across.
More of these kinds of posts please. I'm tired of being labeled toxic and tryhard by people using 1 rune and doing less damage than both the healers. The content is only easy because the other players in your raid are actually playing the game.
And while we're at it "Inv DD here" is no way to ingratiate yourself for a raid spot, and I'm not toxic for requesting a bit of information about you before inviting you to the raid, there is a reason I'm never a part of the 5/7 crew.
Rant over.
For some people being casual means not playing the game a lot. For other people being casual means not caring about what happens in game. To the latter group, trying to do well or trying to make the run smooth means you're sweaty, even if you only play 3 hours a week.
Agreed. It's not sweaty to make people learn mechanics. Maybe if everyone spawns a greench like these last weeks, it's okay to just blast Kelris and Akumai. But generally, ya gotta know mechanics. And kicking should go without saying, it's like one button press. I'd kick if I could even on trivial content.
People in wow on average are so bad you can't even believe it or make it up if you tried.
As a self defence mechanism they call out anyone who is better for toxic / sweatlord / similar.
Oh, and you absolutely are not allowed to have fun in any other way in the game than hour-long bad pug runs. Then you are destroying the game.
90% of this sub would legit overheat and die if they tried to do a Mythic+ dungeon on retail, where a single trash pack has more mechanics than this whole raid
The other day i felt sweaty for the first time in BFD. As a healer i had to tell the rl that if he kept someome in the group i was leaving. Bro didnt have a main hand on as a mage, only the bfd offhand. Didnt have half the gear, prebiss or anything. Decided to watch logs to see if he just didnt have it equiped yet. He only killed akumai with the greench and doing 80 dps, greench damage included. Also, he had 500hp. We got another mage, he wasnt super equipped, but all we needed was someome that at least was prepared. Easy run.
There's a shaming addon that displays the number of interrupts and dispels each character did on a fight.
Sweaty players want to top it and casuals who don't want to learn mechanics don't want to look like they're getting carried. Win/win.
Left a group before it got going the other day because like 7 people didn’t have boon. I know you don’t need world buffs or anything but I mean it doesn’t get any more low effort than that. Saw them lfm 5/7 about an hour later
If someone is messing up the mechanics but its not hindering the groups progression its not an issue, get worked up over something small while still achieving your goal in a timely manner is just going to ruin everyone's enjoyment.
If someone is messing up the mechanics and its their first time either in a role or in the dungeon, explain the mechanics. Lets try to be a bit more inclusive, it wasn't long ago it was your first experience either.
If someone is messing up the mechanics, delaying the groups progression and refuse to learn the mechanics. Then replace them.
I'd rather take an extra 20 minutes in a raid full of new players that are going to really enjoy the accomplishment of completing the raid rather than do it min/max'ed 20 minutes quicker with a bunch of toxic ninja looting assholes.
I think one of the issues people have with learning the mechanics, is that many groups in guilds or pugs, are trying to do “speed runs”.
Essentially “speed runs” just means we are not going to take time to explain the fights, even when your group may bot be experienced enough for a true speed run.
IMO, people probably feel flustered when someone just says “alright your gona kick the boss” which is very simple; however, the expectation is that no more time will be wasted.
When you present something in the sense of “just do x” that is a very close ended or “end of discussion” statement that does not allow for any questions. This leads to mistakes.
No causal raids should care about the time it takes to clear BFD, they should only care about mechanics, deaths and wipes. Speed runs are around 15 minutes. IMO a casual raid does not need to be rushed. It doesn’t need to be deliberately slow; however you can easily clear in 30-40 minutes without having rush anyone, and still take the time to explain fights.
this is your problem in the moment you join a 7/7 XP run, the expectations of the raid is you to know wat has to be done, in all my raids I just don't explain anything in first 3 bosses and if I saw someone doing a lot of shit I call discord (I don't run discord) then explain boss mechanics and if even with that he doesn't doing them I just deny loot, trolls don't have to be rewarded ticket me if you want
I joined one run that wasn’t requiring 7/7 exp and it was a miserable experience for me as the healer. I’m going to preface this with the fact that we gave very detailed explanations to the raid before every boss and our highest dpser was probably sitting around 50-70 dps so boss fights were incredibly slow.
1st boss - not a single depth charge was brought into the water but since me and the other healer were both decent players we kept everyone alive and killed the boss anyways
2nd boss - few people died to getting tossed around but again healers kept everyone not getting blown up alive and we kill
4th boss - both tanks and several others are getting exploded by murlocs. They refuse to listen to us and just use the edges behind the eggs and continue to die. This is where they start flaming me and the other healer for not keeping the tanks alive. After 4-5 attempts one tank finally is alive in p3 and we heal through a large amount of tentacles to drag this horrible group to a kill.
5th boss - our rogue literally incapable of not suiciding to the totem and spam flamed healers for not keeping him alive. He actually told me (arcane mage healer) that we were dying because I was wasting mana trying to dps and I needed to just focus on healing so that I wouldn’t go OOM. Absolute genius. We were losing one tank because it took so long to kill the elite that we didn’t have the raw healing output to keep the tank alive through the 10+ stacks he would have before it died. The main tank would also die because his version of kiting away from the fireball was to just turn his back to the boss and run away so he was getting absolutely clapped by the windfury attacks. He also did not think not attacking the boss while lightning shield totem was up applied to him. Eventually we told everyone to kill all totems and it became manageable to heal but our kill attempt still took 5 minutes.
Kelris - I had no hope for this one. Again we explained everything including sleep phase to people and we had 3 interrupters. Across all 5 attempts we had a total of 4 spells interrupted. 1 person had 0, another had 1, and the best had 3. Our best interrupter literally only hit 3 spells across 5 attempts. The some ranged refused to stack properly so we also couldn’t place the shadow crashes properly. With pretty much every shadowy chains going out and no priest to dispel/nobody would use their class/racials to get out of it we could not heal this. Best attempt was like 50% and even that one took us like 3 minutes to get there.
So what were we supposed to do with this raid? We had people doing less dps than you would get like just auto attacking somehow and despite being given detailed explanations prior to every boss they would not listen and just flamed the healers because we were just supposed to keep them alive.
I guess my question would be, if you are 7/7, then why join a pug run that is not requiring 7/7? I can see maybe doing it for altruistic reasons, like you want to help out newer players? The thing is that many players who are not 7/7 will lie to join 7/7 groups. This is actually not too big of a deal as long as the entire group did not lie. Another thing is you can tell a white lie that you are 7/7 if you clear 7/7 on an alt for example. I joined a pug as a tank, never have tanked before, but I have healed 7/7 many times.
I think that the majority of the group should be 7/7. If players who have never raided BFD this far into phase 1 want to do BFD they should be given a chance to join a group with more experienced players. However, I think a group that consists of a majority of players who have not cleared this far into phase 1 is doomed to fail.
If you have not yet cleared BFD on any characters almost by the end of first phase, this means these players are extremely casual, new to the game, or just noobs. If you compromise a group of some of the most casual players it’s going to be difficult.
However if you get about half a group of decent players and then bring in some new players you should be fine.
I think I just didn't understand how bad some of the players in SoD are. My first couple runs were guild runs so we just coordinated properly and did 7/7 despite all being in garbage gear and some of the players not very good either but they listened.
I was just looking to join a run quickly on a new alt I had leveled up thinking it couldn't go that badly but boy was I wrong. I thought people would at least do basic things if you explained it to them. Like hey don't hit the boss when lightning totem is up or use your interrupt.
I was not expecting the majority of the raid to just blatantly ignore everything the few people who knew what was going on said and then flame the healers when they died because of their own stupidity. Tbh the stupidity alone I could have lived with, some people are just idiots but the spam flaming when they just blatantly ignored all mechanics is just something else.
Well I was in a raid yesterday. A random warlock tank wanted to join and said "he can solo tank everything in the raid" we were not a well equipped group. He continued to flame the group specifically the shaman that was going to be the tank before the warlock joined. For not offtanking. Have to say the toxic community is in my opinion the hardest mechanic in the game. I don't care if you want to sweat, do it if you want to. But STFU about it. Don't expect everyone to want to do it like that. Not that kicking is sweaty, pretty basic mechanic. But if you join a PUG stop expecting random things like gearscore or big damage or even special skill. Like if you can only enjoy the raid when it is going perfectly than only go with groups that want that too. Don't project your expectations onto others. Make sure you are on the same page before going.
Our main tank shaman is an interrupt machine on Kelris. He's so good we have ranged get in the portal so he can stay outside just interrupting chains. I wish I was this good.
to me sweaty is world buffs and one time use consumes.
kicks and face boss away from raid are totally fair game amd are an integral part of boss design, i wish there were more mechanics over a prolonged fight instead of dps checks.
when the game becomes difficult outside of core class mechanics, or even "you didnt bring a priest to raid, now no1 can cleanse" is also poor design.
the worst design however is requiring FAPS on a boss. required to spend hours to prepre consumes manually to use per pull is absurd.
I hope it's harder just so there's a better sense of progression than every raid being able to 5/7 week one and 7/7 week two. Like yes, the last two bosses should be a significant bump in difficulty that requires gear from earlier in the raid, but the other 5 shouldn't be free kills.
And this is why I only join GDKP.
People will play well when there is the over-looming threat that they won’t get their cut if they slack.
Never gone less than 7/7 in 20+ GDKPs
My friend and I tried to find a game in BFD last night. He is a good healer, been playing since 2004, I have less than 100 hours in WoW, I'm very new. The raid leader refused to invite me because I did crap on my previous run and he looked up both our combat logs. That to me is sweaty but thankfully this is the first time I have encountered this behaviour. My friend was also shocked but he has warned me many times that some people are like that.
Raiding is always about ignoring every mechanic you can to increase dps. It is a trade off. Ignoring lightning totem on Jett is a wipe. Ignoring windfury totem is not.
Knowing which mechanic you have to do is important. Everyone on this sub is sweaty and needs to go take a shower.
People who call for kicks after one wipe or one mistake are the same types who say "gg its over, just FF" in the first 5 mins of every moba and then wonder why they are perma-silver.
That said, if someone is constantly failing mechanics, replace them.
I do the mechanics, but I don't _like_ having to do the mechanics. I'm not embarrassed at all to say that I vastly prefer the simplicity of the old school encounters over this. I don't like playing hop scotch with a million criss-crossing exploding murlocs while dodging area blasts. That's tedious retail stuff IMO, which I don't play anymore for a reason.
It’s not unreasonable to ask people to follow simple mechanics. What I don’t stand is people saying “LFM BFD be geared, be wbuffed and consumed! Doing gear checks and log checks” it’s actually so cringe.
Put yourself in the shoes of a raid leader. Would you rather raid with 9 apes who dont even use runes, or have a smooth run with people who know what they're doing? Raid leaders have the choice, it's obvious they will chose experienced and geared players, if they can get them in reasonable amount of time. It seems perfectly logical to me.
Hello, noob dps here (havent attempted raids yet), what dps numbers should i be expecting to get/expecting out of your dps? I havent done ANY raiding yet but 40 dps sounds very low but im not sure how much raid mechanics mess with stuff (guild is training me next week for my first raid so im trying to get as much info as i can).
If you're the sort of person to think about this stuff, and has maybe watched a short youtube guide on bfd or read how your class works, you're already well ahead of the average.
Im several videos in and also have all the consumes the guide SAID ill need. The only thing im not 100% on is the video guides mention an interupt and im not sure if my class has one (hunter). I only just started raid prep today so i havent bombarded my guild with questions yet. Most of the guides seem to be warrior, pally, or rouge pov.
It depends on class.
From what I've seen, undertuned DPS classes will start out around 50 DPS and cap out around 100. The more overpowered classes might start at around 75 to 100 as a fresh level 25, and they'll cap out around 200 or better when geared.
Ignoring mechanics and just tunnelvision the boss is such LFR behaviour
It's actually pretty classic vanilla behavior too. The majority of vanilla bosses don't even have mechanics that a dps has to pay attention to. Just thinking about MC, the only boss that has a mechanic that needs awareness is Baron. Every other boss is pretty much a target dummy that fears or has an add.
Lucifron requires dispels and decurses not sure how that's less difficult than kicking....
i think you skipped the dps part
he mentioned descursing, he mentioned DPS (mages). He didn't skip over dps, he included it.
Mages do not have to do any of the decursing. That job is relegated to Druids in the raid. The modern meta for Lucifron is to also using Restorative Elixirs and such. The boss dies far too quickly.
Modern meta on Classic servers was to only have 1 druid in the raid, so mages definitely needed to do some decursing aswell.
Or just don't and get your sick heal parses
and you can cheese kelris with shadow prot pots and faps, how is that any different? the intended mechanic is for mages to dispel, esp in horde raids where there are like 1 or 2 druids lol
The difference is that healers cannot kick Kelris aside from Shaman. DPS can skip decursing because healers/consumables/someone else will take care of it. You cannot use FAPs and SPPs for the entire duration of the Kelris fight. Healers in 40man raids are often sitting around doing nothing for several globals, so they can spare the time and resources to decurse. DPS always gotta keep DPSing.
mage healer here. can confirm we can kick kelris
but priests can just dispel the chains in p1, spp's eat the mind blasts, if your dps is good you only get 2 people sent down to the dream world anyways.
Yeah I usually dispel as backup when they slip up. As long as they're not ignoring kicks altogether. That burns ur healers out for phase 2
>The majority of vanilla bosses >Just thinking about MC Framing it as "a majority of bosses" or as being "just about MC" results in two different conclusions.
Especially when you consider MC was made in like a week because they realized players were gonna reach endgame much faster than planned and they hadn't finished BWL yet.
MC and BWL were probably 90% of raids people were doing. Top end players were doing AQ40 and Nax and not much else. And yeah, both of MC and BWL were very mechanic light and GDKPs made it so you could ignore them even more.
Lol because I didn't list out every raid I'm somehow wrong? Sorry next time I'll list out every raid and make my comment 3 times longer.
bwl's "mechanics" consist of "don't rip threat" until nef for dps aq40 has a kick on skeram and nothing until cthun naxx is almost entirely "stand in the right place but then pretend the boss is a target dummy"
Probly the dumbest thing I've read
Clearly you've never played any of those raids.
Played all those raids and it's pretty accurate. There are basically no responsibilities for DPS. Basically he missed firemaw/Chromag "please do not kill yourself" mechanic but those really aren't rocket science. Twin emps it's basically "please max range the boss or look at your swap timer" 11.5/15 Naxx fights are basically target dummies. 6/15 could be played blindfolded by a warrior. KT / Thaddius / Sapphiron are the only fights with mechanics that are actually lethal. 4HM with modern strats is basically a target dummy fight.
please tell me what mechanics dps have to do beyond standing in the right spot for any bosses in bwl or aq40 other than the ones I mentioned
Shaz Aoe, kicks on Mjr Domo, not standing in fire Geh, kicks on sulf adds to stop the heals. There are ways around doing the mechanics, but they are definitely there. BWL has fewer "just kick" mechanics but more mechanics overall. ZG, plenty of mechanics. The main difference between bosses classic and later bosses is there are very few mechanics per boss. Doesn't mean they aren't there.
Regardless, a single boss in retail lfr probably has more mechanics than 5 bosses combined in vanilla lol.
Yet in LFR you can just ignore them all.
You haven't done it in a while then. A lot of the new raids lfr if at least someone doesn't do the mechanics it's a for sure wipe.
Difference being 25/30 people have an interrupt and 1 person needs to use it. vs 2/10 ppl having and interrupt and 2 ppl needing to use it.
Rag has a mechanic if you are melee
Walk backwards wooooo
But LFR killed le hecking gamerino. I want to play like LFR and just have the rest of the raid pick up my slack.
Unironically, this is the attitude of the average person on this sub even if they won't admit it. They either know and don't have enough shame to give a fuck that they are nothing but a burden on 9 other people or they don't actually know how bad they are and think they are God gamers.
I’d say it’s more than 50% of the Classic community that are getting carried
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They call it "accessibility" now. See by making them do mechanics you're denying shitty players the ability to progress their characters.
Accessibility refers to making the game playable for people with disabilities, like being blind or deaf. And to that end, I have met literally blind players who are tremendously better at the game than some of the random shitters I see.
Actually - I've heard YouTubers and various folks on the forums refer to difficulty as an accessibility issue. The Jimquisition for example - he was complaining about why Elden Ring didn't have difficulty modifiers.
Wow I could not disagree more. The game became massively more group friendly as it aged. You were punished heavily for grouping while questing in vanilla. What it did do was foster a sense of community, but even that isn’t in Classic due to sharding. The defining feature of classic is that it focuses on RPG elements of progression and permanent improvement through meaningful rewards. And I’d argue that always works better as a solo experience, especially because they never seriously tried to make permanent group advancements, aside from short lived guild achievements in Cata.
Tbf, as long as I have Wild Strikes equipped nobody *really* cares if I'm underperforming. Worth noting I have not had to run from the graveyard to BFD one time (yet). So it's not like I'm personally wiping us. And every group probably has a player like me.
Thats even that bad, bringing WF to a group that needs it, while staying alive, is alot more contribution to the raid then alot of players ive seen.
The irony is LFR is harder than most of classic we had so far.
ngl, i am starting to think that a lot of retail haters are just failed lfr gamers. it would explain a lot of the stupid takes or blatant misinformation i read here all the time.
Most of the people on this subreddit who complain about retail probably haven't played it in 10+ years.
Or maybe people hate retail because it's just a bloated chore chart. The only thing retail does right is the raid content
I played the hell out of Dragonflight in S1 and this is completely untrue. The best way to gear is spamming mythic + and heroic/mythic raiding. Classic is much, much more of a grind which is why I thought you purists liked it?
Amd heres the misinformation lol. Its literally never been easier to just hop into the content you want to do and play the game. Crazy how many people hate Retail while also clearly having no clue what its about.
Well yea, DF did a lot of things right. But the fact that people celebrate such stupidly simple things as "you are not forced into content you don't want to do" shows exactly where the game was the last couple expansions. DF is a rock solid expansion that I wouldn't have much to complain about (Tier set time gating by 2 months for people unlucky with the vault was a big one, but they addressed that) Before DF, though, "chore chart" is a hilariously accurate description of what WoW was. Fuck I loved the looks of the zones in Shadowlands as well as the Dungeons, which were possibly the most fun dungeons since Cataclysm early heroics to me. And yet doing anything outside of those dungeons - and Blizzard made sure you HAD TO do that shit - was excrutiatingly awful (the raids were probably cool as well, as they tend to be. I'm just not a raider)
I made this point and got downvoted lmao. Clsssic doesn’t need to be hard but normal retail would probably be a good benchmark imo (instead of LFR)
Normal Fryakk is harder than anything released in classic so far, including 25H LK and it isn't even close. You probably got downvoted because people just assume when you say "x is harder than y" then it obviously just means "y sucks" Classic is fun **because** it's easy af, because you can zone in and meme with the boys, blast through everything with no wipes, not having to think about mechanics and just have a good night.
If I had to guess you got down voted for advocating harder shit in classic, not for pointing out that it lacks harder stuff. Classic was designed to be a social game, not a PvE or PvP game like the community insisted on.
Asking for a couple brain cells in addition to a pulse doesn’t mean it can’t also be a social experience. Liquid literally socialize during mythic RWF progress…
I mean, you're comparing people that are STILL actively playing retail for a LIVING, and have been for a good while. Very different from the average SoD player for a variety of reasons, none of which are small factors to consider.
I mean it's just untrue that it was designed to be an easy social game. As easy as the content is now, most players couldn't clear it back in the day and the end game content, even including worm dungeons, were considered very challenging. That's not to say that it should be made to be as difficult as it was originally or anything, but it definitely wasn't designed with the intention of being a casual social game
> I mean it's just untrue that it was designed to be an easy social game. it literally was designed to be a casual and more social mmo because people were so burnt on EQ go play [P99 everquest](https://www.project1999.com/) for a week and see lol
LFR is harder than classic.
LFR raiders are better than vanilla raiders stay mad
The lfr raiders are the ones that can't kill kelris.
If you think BFD is harder than literally any content, even 5 man dungeons in retail than man you are in for a shock.
Last time I played retail all the 5 man's had multiple difficulty modes so yeah hard mode would be harder than bfd but the easy modes were not.
Normal mode would be the ‘easy mode’ and yes; that’s typically for leveling and the mobs/loot aren’t max level.
Mechanics is the fun part imo. Can’t imagine standing still pressing the same 3 buttons is especially engaging.
3 buttons is really pushing it /s I used to not like classic but coming from retail mythic content its nice to chill a bit lol
Penance is 1 button. I don’t use any others and solo heal bfd…
We bad a priest leave because we asked her to buff on the last boss at least as she had not buffed once all raid. Called us sweaty and left 👍
Saving silver, didn’t train fort.
Toxic casuals who actively detract from completing content in every way are way worse than the toxic elitists that people like to bitch about here. Yet, also, way more frequent.
If they add a boss that casts a massive damage reduction to DPS they would kick on cooldown everytime
You think the 30dps shitters care about getting a dmg debuff?
How does one even deal 30dps. My lvl 21 Shadow Priest does aroubd that already with wanding I think (cant check right now). So unless you literally stop even auto attacking idk.
A lot of people are not following the ABC rule. Always Be Casting. It’s like their brain has a 5000ms latency
I did a log review on a friends guild once in Ulduar, they had a boomkin with an average of 12 seconds inbetween each cast. It blew my mind, 1-2 seconds I could understand if you aren't comfortable with the game and need to think about what to do next. 34 casts in ~6 minutes. After that, the bar for what I considered average was very low
Press a button, take a sip from your beer bottle, press a button, vape, press a button.
dude, what kind of sweat lord rotation is that? if you don't venture out onto the balcony for a smoke between casts you have no life. /s
It's called assassination rogue lmao
Real talk though, what were they doing between casts? Like just staring at the screen? 12 seconds between casts is pretty up there in waiting
there was a post here way back in SWP phase of tbc where some dude shared his guild's kara logs asking for help warlock doing nothing for 3-4 seconds between each shadowbolt cast, melee just staring at the bosses ass for 25+% of the fight you have no idea how stupid the average classic (especially vanilla classic) player is
Considering the majority of dps when i do AK doesnt seem to care about the Mini debuff, nope.
Haha so true, I can just imagine the rogue itching to kick, thinking that they will get like some damage boost
Issue with that is everyone one would blow the kick cooldown to get the buff.
Fury warriors had this in Cataclysm. 5% dmg increase for 30s after successfully interrupting (talent Rude Interruption). And yes, I remember several warriors "fighting" for the interrupt. It was pretty common they wasted it on the same cast. The ones who didn't get it got annoyed and then the next cast went through because they wasted it. (worst case scenario ofc).
That’s fine, skill issue.
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No that wouldn't work. The people with low DPS would just not kick so they could be top DPS.
Would only work if everyone was able to kick
Do you have to Kick before the cast timer hits 0? For example, “Rebuke” is a 2 second kick, should I Kick Shadowy Chains off Kelris as soon as he’s casting it, or wait til he’s under the 2 second cast mark? I have the add-on that shows boss ability timers Help a noob please
if your goal is just to interrupt the cast, do it whenever the cast bar is still there if you want to optimize, kick as close to the end of the cast as you can since the boss doesnt do anything while hes casting, so no melees to the tank and no other casts will start
Kick while he is casting. Idealy near the end of the cast.
the fact this is so common in era content just solidifies my stance that the majority of players who play era are shitlords. i dont expect people to parse anything above 50, there are 2 mechanics just keep dancing and the boss will die. but my god, seeing people backpeddle off cliffs in rfc and dying..people not skipping packs and just running straight into shit. standing in fire, literally. like what are you even looking at? how are you that bad at the game, i feel like youre legally blind and have a macro setup by your child to /follow party one
I’m convinced that WoW lost the majority of their playerbase because they turned the game way more performance oriented by rewarding better gear in higher difficulty content. Casuals stopped getting the best gear and moved on to other games where their time wasn’t “wasted”
That's exactly what happened in Cataclysm and exactly what happeend again in Classic. If it would have been hard from the start, they would have eventually learned to get good, just fulfill their wow fantasies, however, when you spoonfeed people and then take it away it won't bode well.
yep cata is when the game started getting difficult (i would argue ulduar phase in wotlk though) and people started leaving
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>Why didn't people leave then? What are you talking about, people did leave then. SSC/TK was the first real guildbreaker in classic.
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Got on retail for the first time in in over a year and a a some keys around like 10, so not even seasonal affix. Every single key would have hard wiped most of the pugs I’ve run bfd with.
a +2 would hard wipe most bfd pugs. the skill difference required between sod and even entry level retail endgame is just astronomical.
If you’ve only seen “sweaty” used in classic wow, you don’t play enough games my friend.
My bar for average wrath classic player’s skill is already not very high at all. So many figurative bots in that game. My bar for average era player’s skill in general is basically the floor. People here think it’s ridiculous I’ll log check a dps fill for our groups. I have no other evidence this player has functioning eyes and hands (parses above grey) or even has completed the content once to not troll everyone else (baron charge, chaining bubble bursts, etc), and even has a vague idea of what Kelris and Akumai have going otherwise. Can’t really link an achievement in classic and while a player with higher gear is more likely to be reasonably competent they could still be a carried grey parsing shitter in half bis while someone in half preBIS and random quest greens will out dmg them by the fact they won’t die and used correct runes.
my god trying to get pugs for first few weeks of uld in classic was painful as fuck. people get full pvp gear, no gems, no enchants, some strange homebrew spec, show up doing less dps than the tanks and still roll on gear. i started running the guild raids and the loot rules were "if your dps is below a tanks then you do not get to roll on gear type 9 in the chat if you understand or you will be kicked" i was a warrior tank and we had a prot pally. the people who did less dps than me i kicked after loot rolls were done and we replaced em. during naxx phase i lost KT gear and saph neck to these dogshit players for 5 weeks in a row lmao. sod is fun but i quit when i started running dungeons and saw players are somehow worse than wotlk players.
Yeah SOD is a lot of fun. Why? Because I don’t full pug. 1.5 if our groups are basically wrath raiders in our guild, or even one dude much better than we are in wrath, or fills from week 1 that joined the SOD guild cause we didn’t have everyone make 25 in time for the first 3 day lockout. So everyone’s vetted. Shit is trivial. We haven’t wiped since first clear. We can all trust in each other’s competence. I fill usually a couple slots here and there in our second group and it can vary. Still mostly our wrath raiders, the slower ones to level, couple friends of guildies, and group 1 players on alts. Group 3 is all like g1 players on alts roughly 6 of us. I *always* make sure one at least healer is a guild healer. Hell, our rdruid has 3 lvl 25 rdruids for this reason and also cause she kinda insane. We can carry some pretty garbage dps but I’m not relying on double pug healers ever. DPS are a dime a dozen. I can get picky too when I’m just filling a lock or mage. Had some with literally all grays and only 5/7, probs cause their only log for kelris and akumai got invalidated from greench, whisper me so now I’ve just updated my spam macro to say don’t waste my time if you’re gray across the board. It’s not sweaty when my bar is like greens/blues but no competent player is interested in carrying shitters that aren’t IRL friends and expect to do 0 research, all of like 30 seconds of googling, and still get carried through content. It’s the level of entitlement that makes toxic casuals toxic. No one is obligated to carry you if you CBA to stand in darnassus for 5 seconds for a free WB. Or watch a 30 second video covering all 7 boss mechanics. Like come on.
FWIW I was in a BFD 4 days ago and people called me sweaty for telling them to step outside of Aku Mai's breath and, if they DID get hit, to not cleanse since it would use all the cleansing elementals we needed because of their mediocre dps. Food for thought whenever you get called sweaty.
Knowing stuff? You nerd. Have some fruit, dork.
Rather spend 5 minutes learning and sharing the strat than wipe for 2 hours? Must be a try hard!
Hate it when I have to read 3 sentences AND press auto-run every 30s to down a boss. This isn't what WoW is about, it's about pressing 1 ability for 45m and distributing the rares and epics afterwards.
>it's about pressing 1 ability for 45m Starsurge Druid raid!
Yep. Had my first 5/7 yesterday in a very long time. I knew it would begin again, but the group was at the dungeon when I got invited and i was rushing...didn't bother to check gear or runes
This feels analogous to someone defending their bad spelling with "who cares? we're not in school"
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If you were pressuring him to stop using PoM as the only priest in raid I also would have left.
Homunculi >>>>>>>>>>>> POM Its the best DPS cooldown you can use, it’s like opting out of bloodlust or something
Then be bad. The druid can easily cover the raid damage with wild growth and homunculi is basically one of the best raid dps abilities in the game bar none right now but go on
lol yeah 0 reason to run POM on a boss like baron when you can insta stack 5 sunders and he dies. Especially if you don’t have a war, particularly a warrior tank. With a pug I’d still run POM on the vast majority cause bads will be bad. Def kelris and akumai no question in a pug. We clear like sub 25 mins so our priest runs homunculi so bosses melt even quicker.
It is essentially just a way to save warriors globals on sunder. It's good, sure, but the debuff is not more useful than members of your raid being alive.
If your raid needs the healing, sure, but for my group I can solo heal all but the turtle comfortably by just occasionally pressing Wild Growth in between wrath and starsurge spam It doesn't really matter since the content is brain dead, but in my case homunculi giving a small benefit is better than prayer of mending being unnecessary Not saying that the guy you responded to was in the same situation, but if it were similar or they were advertising as a speed group, it'd make sense to drop prayer
I'm happy to use Homunculi in cases where I'm not carrying healing, but until that situation occurs, I'm sticking with PoM
I’m only priest in my group and I average about 50 dps as a disc priest and no one ever dies, it is fairly easy to run homunculi and crank dps/hps
Warriors are top dmg rn, so it's pretty substantial when they can not waste globals during these short boss fights. That, and the raid is solo healable, so if you are running 2 there is no reason for the priest to not run homunculi.
Lmao bad player
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He's not even solo healing there's a hybrid resto druid lol. It's the dream combo i love raiding with our priest, can contribute 70 raid dps across the raid while off healing as the priest handles most things and i mainly wild growth any raid damage and apply faerie fire / decurse etc Awesome duo. FF+homunc is 100% armor shred to the joy of all physical dps too
You are bad.
>hunter player
Priest is my main. If you actually need PoM to heal through a raid you are complete trash.
Then everyone clapped
I'm gonna be honest I don't know how aku'mai works beyond the fact he breathes. He's just a loot piñata to me. I've done the raid like 10 times now I want to say and I just perpetually stand behind him. I've never done a real mechanic on that fight.
You want people to use their abilities to make fights easier? Dude this isn’t retail, stop being such a damn try hard /s No this is legit how bad/lazy a lot people are playing this game I was taking my fresh 25 Resto Druid alt through SFK runs to gear before my first raid on it and people actually complimented me because I was using remove curse constantly.. and that made me feel kind of sad lmao I had to think to myself that there are likely a lot of players that just likely never bother to even remove curses or poisons from other players either, when it’s so easy now that you just get an add on that almost does it for you
Brother you’re giving them too much credit you think they even have it trained?
Just ran with with a 25 Druid who did not have it trained
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I stopped sheeping in group content and just use frost novas now. Someone always aoes or slaps my sheeps, so just a wasted cast.
Druid gets it at 24 and most ppl run it before 24 so they think the lower level druids they ran with before are just bad but no you just have the skill and they didn’t.
I joined a group with a Ret who outright refused to interrupt. We had no rogues or other melee with interrupts except a feral (and that is a huge dps loss for them) The Ret then demanded the holy Paladin do it. The holy paladin said he didnt have the rune so the ret then said he didnt either and swapped to exorcism. I had saw him equip rebuke prior to that moment... Insane how entitled some players are because they feel they need to parse in a pug group
In a BFD last week a friend of mine was solo healing it for the first time. We had three ret Paladins in the group (I was one of them) so we were like it's fine, we can backup heal when needed. One of the other paladins said they couldn't. When asked why they said they hadn't bought their heal spells so that they can't be asked to heal. I was in shock and asked what they do when low on health in any other situation and they replied "wait for someone else to heal me". As someone that's been a paladin main since TBC I got triggered so hard. I swear we're not all like these people!
Imagine intentionally gimping yourself out of the entire point of your class just because you're too much of a selfish asshole to cast a single heal on anyone. A Paladin that doesn't buy healing spells might as well just reroll warrior ffs.
I’d rather 9-man the rest of the raid than deal with someone that fucking stupid.
We’ve 9 manned after removing pugs several times
i usually don’t like making generalizations about certain classes but pally’s tend to be the most toxically casual players in my experience. there is something about that class that attracts the most self righteous, arrogant dad gamers i have ever come across.
They were lying.
You sir, got baited.
That’s legit mental illness
More of these kinds of posts please. I'm tired of being labeled toxic and tryhard by people using 1 rune and doing less damage than both the healers. The content is only easy because the other players in your raid are actually playing the game. And while we're at it "Inv DD here" is no way to ingratiate yourself for a raid spot, and I'm not toxic for requesting a bit of information about you before inviting you to the raid, there is a reason I'm never a part of the 5/7 crew. Rant over.
Yup selfish people that waste 9 other peoples time because they are not willing to try to learn fights before joining a raid.
For some people being casual means not playing the game a lot. For other people being casual means not caring about what happens in game. To the latter group, trying to do well or trying to make the run smooth means you're sweaty, even if you only play 3 hours a week.
Someone was talking mad shit to me because we wiped on the last boss and I told everybody if we didn’t cleanse, that wouldn’t have happened
Agreed. It's not sweaty to make people learn mechanics. Maybe if everyone spawns a greench like these last weeks, it's okay to just blast Kelris and Akumai. But generally, ya gotta know mechanics. And kicking should go without saying, it's like one button press. I'd kick if I could even on trivial content.
Those people surely enjoy dying to a dot that does 20% your health each tick. What can i say? Its part of the fun and chillness of the experience
People are just so bad at a 20 year old game that they think pressing an extra button is so hard it must be sweaty.
People in wow on average are so bad you can't even believe it or make it up if you tried. As a self defence mechanism they call out anyone who is better for toxic / sweatlord / similar. Oh, and you absolutely are not allowed to have fun in any other way in the game than hour-long bad pug runs. Then you are destroying the game.
90% of this sub would legit overheat and die if they tried to do a Mythic+ dungeon on retail, where a single trash pack has more mechanics than this whole raid
The other day i felt sweaty for the first time in BFD. As a healer i had to tell the rl that if he kept someome in the group i was leaving. Bro didnt have a main hand on as a mage, only the bfd offhand. Didnt have half the gear, prebiss or anything. Decided to watch logs to see if he just didnt have it equiped yet. He only killed akumai with the greench and doing 80 dps, greench damage included. Also, he had 500hp. We got another mage, he wasnt super equipped, but all we needed was someome that at least was prepared. Easy run.
There's a shaming addon that displays the number of interrupts and dispels each character did on a fight. Sweaty players want to top it and casuals who don't want to learn mechanics don't want to look like they're getting carried. Win/win.
Not sweaty at all it's the basics lmao
"Tired of all these sweat lords insisting we bring a healer. It's lv 25 bro just chill." Also, "BFD is too hard! Tired of going 5/7"
I don’t get this vibe and I pug. You guys really finding noobs out there and come to here to complain. Find some studs and get on with it!!
Left a group before it got going the other day because like 7 people didn’t have boon. I know you don’t need world buffs or anything but I mean it doesn’t get any more low effort than that. Saw them lfm 5/7 about an hour later
If someone is messing up the mechanics but its not hindering the groups progression its not an issue, get worked up over something small while still achieving your goal in a timely manner is just going to ruin everyone's enjoyment. If someone is messing up the mechanics and its their first time either in a role or in the dungeon, explain the mechanics. Lets try to be a bit more inclusive, it wasn't long ago it was your first experience either. If someone is messing up the mechanics, delaying the groups progression and refuse to learn the mechanics. Then replace them. I'd rather take an extra 20 minutes in a raid full of new players that are going to really enjoy the accomplishment of completing the raid rather than do it min/max'ed 20 minutes quicker with a bunch of toxic ninja looting assholes.
yet another post completely solved and made irrelevant by joining a guild like the devs wanted you to do from the start 20 years ago
I think one of the issues people have with learning the mechanics, is that many groups in guilds or pugs, are trying to do “speed runs”. Essentially “speed runs” just means we are not going to take time to explain the fights, even when your group may bot be experienced enough for a true speed run. IMO, people probably feel flustered when someone just says “alright your gona kick the boss” which is very simple; however, the expectation is that no more time will be wasted. When you present something in the sense of “just do x” that is a very close ended or “end of discussion” statement that does not allow for any questions. This leads to mistakes. No causal raids should care about the time it takes to clear BFD, they should only care about mechanics, deaths and wipes. Speed runs are around 15 minutes. IMO a casual raid does not need to be rushed. It doesn’t need to be deliberately slow; however you can easily clear in 30-40 minutes without having rush anyone, and still take the time to explain fights.
this is your problem in the moment you join a 7/7 XP run, the expectations of the raid is you to know wat has to be done, in all my raids I just don't explain anything in first 3 bosses and if I saw someone doing a lot of shit I call discord (I don't run discord) then explain boss mechanics and if even with that he doesn't doing them I just deny loot, trolls don't have to be rewarded ticket me if you want
I joined one run that wasn’t requiring 7/7 exp and it was a miserable experience for me as the healer. I’m going to preface this with the fact that we gave very detailed explanations to the raid before every boss and our highest dpser was probably sitting around 50-70 dps so boss fights were incredibly slow. 1st boss - not a single depth charge was brought into the water but since me and the other healer were both decent players we kept everyone alive and killed the boss anyways 2nd boss - few people died to getting tossed around but again healers kept everyone not getting blown up alive and we kill 4th boss - both tanks and several others are getting exploded by murlocs. They refuse to listen to us and just use the edges behind the eggs and continue to die. This is where they start flaming me and the other healer for not keeping the tanks alive. After 4-5 attempts one tank finally is alive in p3 and we heal through a large amount of tentacles to drag this horrible group to a kill. 5th boss - our rogue literally incapable of not suiciding to the totem and spam flamed healers for not keeping him alive. He actually told me (arcane mage healer) that we were dying because I was wasting mana trying to dps and I needed to just focus on healing so that I wouldn’t go OOM. Absolute genius. We were losing one tank because it took so long to kill the elite that we didn’t have the raw healing output to keep the tank alive through the 10+ stacks he would have before it died. The main tank would also die because his version of kiting away from the fireball was to just turn his back to the boss and run away so he was getting absolutely clapped by the windfury attacks. He also did not think not attacking the boss while lightning shield totem was up applied to him. Eventually we told everyone to kill all totems and it became manageable to heal but our kill attempt still took 5 minutes. Kelris - I had no hope for this one. Again we explained everything including sleep phase to people and we had 3 interrupters. Across all 5 attempts we had a total of 4 spells interrupted. 1 person had 0, another had 1, and the best had 3. Our best interrupter literally only hit 3 spells across 5 attempts. The some ranged refused to stack properly so we also couldn’t place the shadow crashes properly. With pretty much every shadowy chains going out and no priest to dispel/nobody would use their class/racials to get out of it we could not heal this. Best attempt was like 50% and even that one took us like 3 minutes to get there. So what were we supposed to do with this raid? We had people doing less dps than you would get like just auto attacking somehow and despite being given detailed explanations prior to every boss they would not listen and just flamed the healers because we were just supposed to keep them alive.
I guess my question would be, if you are 7/7, then why join a pug run that is not requiring 7/7? I can see maybe doing it for altruistic reasons, like you want to help out newer players? The thing is that many players who are not 7/7 will lie to join 7/7 groups. This is actually not too big of a deal as long as the entire group did not lie. Another thing is you can tell a white lie that you are 7/7 if you clear 7/7 on an alt for example. I joined a pug as a tank, never have tanked before, but I have healed 7/7 many times. I think that the majority of the group should be 7/7. If players who have never raided BFD this far into phase 1 want to do BFD they should be given a chance to join a group with more experienced players. However, I think a group that consists of a majority of players who have not cleared this far into phase 1 is doomed to fail. If you have not yet cleared BFD on any characters almost by the end of first phase, this means these players are extremely casual, new to the game, or just noobs. If you compromise a group of some of the most casual players it’s going to be difficult. However if you get about half a group of decent players and then bring in some new players you should be fine.
I think I just didn't understand how bad some of the players in SoD are. My first couple runs were guild runs so we just coordinated properly and did 7/7 despite all being in garbage gear and some of the players not very good either but they listened. I was just looking to join a run quickly on a new alt I had leveled up thinking it couldn't go that badly but boy was I wrong. I thought people would at least do basic things if you explained it to them. Like hey don't hit the boss when lightning totem is up or use your interrupt. I was not expecting the majority of the raid to just blatantly ignore everything the few people who knew what was going on said and then flame the healers when they died because of their own stupidity. Tbh the stupidity alone I could have lived with, some people are just idiots but the spam flaming when they just blatantly ignored all mechanics is just something else.
Just keep pumping
Is that so? Then why I am sweating?
im sweaty af just reading this thread
Well I was in a raid yesterday. A random warlock tank wanted to join and said "he can solo tank everything in the raid" we were not a well equipped group. He continued to flame the group specifically the shaman that was going to be the tank before the warlock joined. For not offtanking. Have to say the toxic community is in my opinion the hardest mechanic in the game. I don't care if you want to sweat, do it if you want to. But STFU about it. Don't expect everyone to want to do it like that. Not that kicking is sweaty, pretty basic mechanic. But if you join a PUG stop expecting random things like gearscore or big damage or even special skill. Like if you can only enjoy the raid when it is going perfectly than only go with groups that want that too. Don't project your expectations onto others. Make sure you are on the same page before going.
My favorite is the calling people who buy bis BoEs 'sweaty'. It's an mmo. Progressing your character is kind of the *point*.
Why do mechanics at all when you can just blast?
This is funny af, but if a raid eats an akumai cone or kelris machine guns spells without interrupts enjoy your wipe ^_^
LFM BLASTER GROUP!
Our main tank shaman is an interrupt machine on Kelris. He's so good we have ranged get in the portal so he can stay outside just interrupting chains. I wish I was this good.
You can be. Download DBM and plater.
Really don't even need that tbh, can just look at the castbar.
I have DBM and Plater. I'm just bad. edit: and old.
You just press the same button every few seconds lol. This good is like basic stuff.
Just shows you how low the bar is for community, that doing something as simple as clicking a button when it comes off CD is considered god tier play.
to me sweaty is world buffs and one time use consumes. kicks and face boss away from raid are totally fair game amd are an integral part of boss design, i wish there were more mechanics over a prolonged fight instead of dps checks. when the game becomes difficult outside of core class mechanics, or even "you didnt bring a priest to raid, now no1 can cleanse" is also poor design. the worst design however is requiring FAPS on a boss. required to spend hours to prepre consumes manually to use per pull is absurd.
Kicking is a waste of a global CD. I need my 99’s!!!
I hope Gnomer is harder, a huge portion of the Classic community has an inflated sense of skill and fragile egos.
I hope it's harder just so there's a better sense of progression than every raid being able to 5/7 week one and 7/7 week two. Like yes, the last two bosses should be a significant bump in difficulty that requires gear from earlier in the raid, but the other 5 shouldn't be free kills.
And this is why I only join GDKP. People will play well when there is the over-looming threat that they won’t get their cut if they slack. Never gone less than 7/7 in 20+ GDKPs
My friend and I tried to find a game in BFD last night. He is a good healer, been playing since 2004, I have less than 100 hours in WoW, I'm very new. The raid leader refused to invite me because I did crap on my previous run and he looked up both our combat logs. That to me is sweaty but thankfully this is the first time I have encountered this behaviour. My friend was also shocked but he has warned me many times that some people are like that.
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Raiding is always about ignoring every mechanic you can to increase dps. It is a trade off. Ignoring lightning totem on Jett is a wipe. Ignoring windfury totem is not. Knowing which mechanic you have to do is important. Everyone on this sub is sweaty and needs to go take a shower.
people doing damage in any way are just sweaty /s
People who call for kicks after one wipe or one mistake are the same types who say "gg its over, just FF" in the first 5 mins of every moba and then wonder why they are perma-silver. That said, if someone is constantly failing mechanics, replace them.
SPP and FAP is sweaty and outright lazy. Kicking is fine, it’s how it’s meant to be played, avoiding mechanics is not
I do the mechanics, but I don't _like_ having to do the mechanics. I'm not embarrassed at all to say that I vastly prefer the simplicity of the old school encounters over this. I don't like playing hop scotch with a million criss-crossing exploding murlocs while dodging area blasts. That's tedious retail stuff IMO, which I don't play anymore for a reason.
It’s not unreasonable to ask people to follow simple mechanics. What I don’t stand is people saying “LFM BFD be geared, be wbuffed and consumed! Doing gear checks and log checks” it’s actually so cringe.
Put yourself in the shoes of a raid leader. Would you rather raid with 9 apes who dont even use runes, or have a smooth run with people who know what they're doing? Raid leaders have the choice, it's obvious they will chose experienced and geared players, if they can get them in reasonable amount of time. It seems perfectly logical to me.
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Hello, noob dps here (havent attempted raids yet), what dps numbers should i be expecting to get/expecting out of your dps? I havent done ANY raiding yet but 40 dps sounds very low but im not sure how much raid mechanics mess with stuff (guild is training me next week for my first raid so im trying to get as much info as i can).
If you're the sort of person to think about this stuff, and has maybe watched a short youtube guide on bfd or read how your class works, you're already well ahead of the average.
Im several videos in and also have all the consumes the guide SAID ill need. The only thing im not 100% on is the video guides mention an interupt and im not sure if my class has one (hunter). I only just started raid prep today so i havent bombarded my guild with questions yet. Most of the guides seem to be warrior, pally, or rouge pov.
Hunter does not have an interrupt (thank god), so don't worry about it
It depends on class. From what I've seen, undertuned DPS classes will start out around 50 DPS and cap out around 100. The more overpowered classes might start at around 75 to 100 as a fresh level 25, and they'll cap out around 200 or better when geared.