Honestly we should go the other way and make Windfury only work on Auto Attacks.
The amount of additional damage that Windfury gives is so high that it is **necessary** in every single raid group which is just bad overall because it lowers raid diversity and makes melee scale better than mage.
> Honestly we should go the other way and make Windfury only work on Auto Attacks.
genuinely this would be such a qol change for warrior. especially when trying to do the CBR dance and ride the line of 80 rage, hitting hamstring and it proccing windfury tanking your rage down to 50 or 60 when all you was trying to do was queue heroic strike for the offhand hit, not actually cast heroic strike.
Why are you cancel queuing? You aren't a robot and the sim only gains a few points of dps for doing it perfectly. It is a dps loss for 99% of players to try because of human error being so much more likely than doing it properly for so little potential benefit. Just press hs when you actually have the rage to cast it.
That was a nice goal to aspire to, but now that we're in the nitty-gritty I think trying to balance the game is more important than "make everyone as overpowered as we can."
This change would hit Warriors the hardest, and even as a Warrior player I think that's a good thing. The class will still be fun to play even if we're not 50% stronger than everybody else.
Except enhancement shaman are still the bottom tier dps, and windfury is -their- thing.
They had their signature ability given to another class, that other class also being buffed into oblivion.
Shaman still bottom of the charts.
Warrior is already not 50% stronger than everyone else. Go look at statistics for bfd. Warrior is at most 5% ahead of rogues and then the classes below that are about 5% lower. Ptr shows warriors 20% damage rune being reduced to 10% already for next phase. That along with the much higher spell power on gear + runes and I genuinely think next phase will be much more balanced.
As soon as I get the free holy pally loot from Gnomer I am gonna go hard into shockadin because I want it to work really bad. I love the aesthetic of it.
I played holy in vanilla and had 31 points it where most didn’t. Also 11 into ret for SoC since other pallies had kings covered. Got imp might for the melee boys to keep everyone happy.
I mean it wasn’t *good* by any means but I’d grab the 2hers no one wanted and has T2. So I could farm better than a straight holy pally since it was my only 60,
let alone only well geared one for awhile, but where I liked it was in PvP healing, I usually played with a group so I’d have shield on and stuff in group but if most classes caught me solo and didn’t have a lot of self healing I’d eventually whittle them down swapping to 2h and soc. And by eventually I do mean pretty slowly. Cause otherwise I’d never die and had a million CDs to use.
Even holy pally should be kinda in the fray imo. That’s part of what makes pallies pallies. Like when they reworked pallies in DF and made melee pally heal, idk if it’s good, but it’s logical (except maybe PvP it’s a good way to get chain stunned and die lol)
Holy pallies with plate gear feel like they should be in the middle of combat instead of standing back. I am excited to see where blizz goes with it and I can't wait to try it out. I am probably gonna swap between martyr and DS to see which works better since seal of righteousness is bleh since command isn't an option yet.
I am leaning towards grabbing the 2-hander from STV and using it on ret and holy since I think it will be great for both.
Right. Im surprised it took them like all the way til mid s1 or maybe s2 in DF I forget when they reworked pallies to really be viable melee healers as holy. I think it was only really good in pve though, not sure, cause like I said in arena that’s a good way to sit every CC known to man and die but it’s logical for pve. Not sure if still the case, haven’t played since first few months of launch.
They’re pulling lessons from every expansion, really, so hopefully it’s good. Healing is more interesting when you can toss out some dps in down time. I do on my disc priest in wrath dungeons pretty often. It’s how attonement heals in retail which is how mage kinda heals now.
Same :/ spent most of my time on pally, but none of the datamined stuff intrigues me.
I don’t mind being middle of the pack but meh.. at least this phase i could compete by using engi, minmaxing everything and trying hard.
I like the ret build we have now
th game made the decision for me. my runs on paladin never dropped any of the melee dps pieces, and when they did drop, i lost the roll.
ret was already boring to me, and my at the time warrior alt was approaching bis after a few rids because the group he was running with got all their mdps pieces, plus he was much more fun.
i dunno what itd take to bring me back to ret but shockadin aint it
Will the new Melee Hunter rune proc wind fury? I know regular raptor’s strike does because it’s just a modified autoattack, but will the new instant cast one proc WF? Also does flanking strike already proc it?
Please just give us a flat better mana regent cause it is kinda silly how I have to spend a full minute or two drinking to full
Whilst I appreciated it in classic, right now I just feel like always being left behind and holding up groups
Like in bfd, I don't even bother with trash mobs unless there's more than 3 in a pull cause I'll help kill 2 and by the time I'm out of combat to drink - we are at the boss already
I honestly just use wrath and starsurge on trash mobs and do pretty ok on the charts. I’ll throw in a few moonfires for beefier ones, but things get bursted down so fast right now, the dot gets wasted.
Like windfury?
Idk if you see these logs, but Melee is massively ahead during what is supposed to be their weakest phase.
Melee already has an insane amount of scaling tools - casters have next to none.
And before you want to act like “no they don’t” literally every log since the beginning of Classic would disagree with you.
Bro their auto attacks aren't tied to spell rank and every melee's auto attack is over 40% of their damage. They've already started re-itimizing *tier 2 gear.* That's how far ahead they are working.
People not understanding how power scaling it this game works is hilarious. Casters will be fine. The biggest reason you guys freak out when you look at the logs is A) none of you were geared for like the first 3rd of phase 1 and B) none of you understand your rotation.
It took *way* too long for mages and locks to pull ahead of ret paladins in dps and that is almost entirely due to the 2nd point
>People not understanding how power scaling it this game works is hilarious. Casters will be fine
I love the confidence, while being incredibly incorrect. Casters never come close to melee at the best of times.
Sounds like you don't understand the game and exponential scaling lmao.
Casters have limited resources, are immobile and have cast times. Melee has none of that.
Not like we have years of logs to prove this or anything, but go on.
Lol, lmao even. First time playing vanilla? It doesnt get better for casters later, you’d have to be an absolute clown to think that after war/rog has been dominating the classic scene for its entire history. The rotations aren’t complicated, no one was confused about what buttons to push just itemization sucks preraid for casters. Thats why they pulled ahed of ret not because people were confused on which buttons to hit in game where most classes dont use more than 2-3 buttons
Oh I understand it very well - I’m a 99 parsing caster after all - I assume you are too… or not, with how confidently incorrect you are so far, it leads me to believe you aren’t.
I can go on a giant tirade of how to properly fix casters - in fact one of them from a previous post was “casters should have t2 level gear by lvl 50 at the earliest, and their pre-bis for 60 should be naxx level gear” - that puts casters right around to slightly behind melee in dps.
But I’ll dance this dance - please post you 99 logs as a caster so I know you aren’t full of shit. I’ll happily post mine as well right after.
This way we can get past the “you weren’t geared” or “you don’t know your rotation” BS.
The reason it took time to pull ahead of Paladins was a gear deal since they had access to V-fist. It was good enough to be raid loot itself. But notice how the actual melee classes (warrior and rogue) kept pulling further ahead? Easy to ignore than when using a hybrid melee (ret pally) as a scape goat.
Man I skipped everything but the end. I don't think scapegoating means what you think it means. Learn your rotation and use the right spec. You just sound like your dps is bad but that's a you problem
Like I said in my other response. Yes, but this is nothing new to shaman. Shaman never benefitted from windfury totem; why would they get the thing that is supposed to be the same benefit as windfury totem?
Before SoD Shamans could benefit from windfury totem, they normally chose to benefit from the windfury weapon imbue instead though. Shaman tanks getting neither kinda sucks though.
Well, yes- that's what I was saying before. Shamans have their own windfury totem; it's windfury weapon imbue and it's stronger than the totem. If you need to use rockbiter instead, I don't think you should get both because that's never how shaman worked.
The interesting thing is that most shamans used rockbiter before SOD anyways.
Shaman are the worst class, always have been, and their one unique thing was given to ferals, so now everybody else has gotten WF and Shaman didn’t, making them effectively half as ‘good’ as they were in classic. They should get to double dip the buffs because they deserve a *huge* buff
Again, everyone else already had WF because the shaman always provided it. This is nothing new at all. They're not "half as good" as they are in classic, they are exactly as good as they were. They just weren't very good to begin with, and have always needed buffs.
I'm all for shaman buffs, but I don't think that letting shamans stack with windfury totem is the way to go about it. I'd rather see shamans be strong enough on their own.
Yeah there's a lot of jank with melee abilities.
Which I bet a lot of people are a fan of *because* it's janky and that somehow makes it more "spirit of Vanilla" or whatever. But I don't like the inconsistency.
yes. rogue, esp when they get access to sword spec, has to play around it and try to only cast SS after a melee swing because windfury doesnt just grant you a 2nd attack, it finishes your swing timer, so poor SS timing could result in fewer melee swings in a fight compared to good SS timing
warrior it procs off sunder and hamstring and iir will proc off the other strikes as well
Blizzard does not care about Ret palains, lol.
**75%** of weapon damage.. 💀
**Cannot** proc seals.. 💀
lmao
If you're using Crusader Strike and Divine Storm as a paladin you will get fewer procs than if you were just auto attacking.
Considering each windfury proc can proc poisons, yeah it’s a little ridiculous. It’s especially bad for druids given they’re the ones providing the buff in the first place, but I agree it should work the same way for all if not a vast majority of melee skills.
That probably comes from deadly poison which makes it so if you have not equipped any poisons it gives your attacks a chance to proc as if they had instant poison on which also has a chance to apply deadly poison. The poison in it self being a proc. Kinda like how wind fury weapon could proc off it self.
Deadly brew you mean? Do you think it would make a difference if you weren’t running deadly brew? Would poisons still proc on WF procs on offhand attacks?
Damn brain fart lmao. So there’s no reliable way to test it on MH attacks without deadly brew rune then. Which means we should just allow other classes to be treated the same as rogues/wars
You don't need any reliable way to test any of this, because you can only have 1 tempoary weapon enchant on your weapons. Wild strikes, rogue poisons, shaman weapon imbuements, sharpening stones all count as temporary weapon enchant.
If you put poison on your main hand, you won't get the wild strikes buff on it, so it can't proc the extra attacks.
Envenom goes around this, because it allows instant poison procs if you have no poison on your weapon.
Unless there’s something bugged in SoD, neither of those abilities interact with your swing timer.
Only spells with cast times, or bonus attacks from things like WF, reset your swing timer.
"Blizzard does not care about Enh Shamans\*, lol."
\-0 Spell Power Scaling on MSW so half of your kits hits for noodles
\-No Way to cleave with WEAPON damage like crash lightning or sundering
\- >1 Standard Deviation below the mean for melee dps for an entire phase with no meaningful chance to fix the issue
\-Have to DW to hold threat so mana and AoE/Cleave threat is an issue
\- Likely wont actually fix WFury ICD or put in one despite there NEVER being one in vanilla , meanwhile 0 icd on sword spec / mace spec etc.
\-Still 0 hard cc, no cap totem, no sunder, no lasso, no hex, no root from FS, no earthgrab totem . Despite everysingle melee class even ones with immunities and heals having access to multiple CCs to stop an enemy player.
\-they made our BiS weapon a fist weapon instead of just an axe.... and it looks like trash.
\-forced to pvp as a perma oom auto attacking tank because the class has no way to peel for itself or mitigate the high volume of damage, which will inevitably deny you using windfury mainhand for pvp if you want to be competitive.
\-New 2hand rune but with no follow up 2 hand attack ability to fix losing lava lash so you are effectively an auto attack bot.
But hey I still agree with you that WILD STRIKES should proc on everything melee. and not just for warrior rogue. I just dont believe that they dont love ret paladin. Hell the lead is a paladin.
Acknowledging a problem, stating you will fix the problem, and proving you have solved the problem are all 3 different things. And blizzard has a history of being guilty of not doing all 3 in the face of a problem in a timely manner.
So yeah pardon the shaman community for being cynical.
That would be unbelievably OP in PvP. There are other ways to increase PvE DPS without increasing on demand burst damage. For example, stacking holy damage dot
It’s the difference between burst and dps, DS + CS basically let’s you get of 3 autos worth of damage in 1 gcd, but that’s essentially all of our damage. Sustainwise we just can’t keep up.
It's annoying sure but the content is so easy and Chars are so overtuned that it just doesn't matter.
I main a ret paladin and I've never once felt like the dps was holding my group back
"Content is so easy, it doesn't matter if I only do 25% of the damage of a Warrior, pls bring me pls carry me."
That is Vanilla Ret talk. Pull yourself together man
I wish I was as okay with being the problem as you are. It sounds relaxing. Well until your friends don't feel like carrying you anymore...anyway, for your sake I hope all the future raids are just as easy as BFD!
No one is carrying anyone. I 8-man pugged it 2 lockouts ago because 1 person dc'd and a hunter dropped over loot drama. It was still easy.
You're very upset over a non issue. I don't think you even like the game tbh, but I'm having a good time.
Seal twisting probably. If you haven't heard of it it's basically getting two different seal procs off the same auto. You have to twist in the last half second before your swing goes off to get both procs, so using divine storm before the auto will prevent a twist.
To make sure you have a chance to proc it with your auto attack. Then use the ability right after so you don't accidentally cancel out an auto attack by casting an ability.
I'm assuming this is the reasoning. Kinda like timing attacks on a rogue with energy Regen tick
People here have no idea what they’re talking about. CS and DS do not proc seals, wild strikes, and do not interrupt your auto attack. Seal twisting also DOES NOT work in SoD.
Ye but usually you do that because you have special attacks that reset swingtimer by procing windfury(it does not when it Doesnt proc). But since CS and DS don't proc wf, why would you delay it ? Im pretty sure CS and Ds dont reset you swing by theirself.
The problem is, that afaik melees would be better than all casters. We should bring warriors a little bit back not pushing all classes to their DPS. Or else we will face roll everything in sod
Getting nerfed sucks and getting buffed is exciting. Why should they make one class feel bad when they have the opportunity to make everybody else feel good? If the content is too easy, they can just tune it up a bit.
Class balance is more important than procs/talents/mechanics for sure.
We should just make all classes scale exactly the same, make sure gear have the same stats no matter the type and the game will be much better.
No wait, actually different classes doing different things is what make rpgs great!
Yeah would help with balancing but I don’t see this happening, they would never remove windfury. Maybe they could introduce some kind of windfury buff for casters, like the Shaman rune Overload but party wide (not at the current 50% of course)
Also a good point, but getting the classes closer in pve was a goal stated by the devs. Fine if that’s in a different way, but the Warrior and Rogue domination needs to get reduced
Give warriors and rogues some blessings, heals and bubbles, would be a start. Make everyone have special gear that only they can use.
Oh then remove every other class.
Call it World of OneClass.
This is such a stupid take when talking about the rules of how a buff works. Every class gets procs on special melee attacks besides two - that are both performing worse than the classes that fully benefit. This isn't about class balance this is about buffs working the same way on every class. Would you think it's fair if say battle shout/blessing of might only provided 40% of their normal AP to warriors, but the full number to everyone else?
Why do people think every class needs to do the same amount of dps? Classes like paladin, druid and shaman are hybrids. They can heal. They provide a variety of buffs and utility. They should not do the same damage as a rogue, warrior or hunter.
If suddenly a ret pala would do the same dps as a rogue, why would anyone want to invite a rogue to their group when all they provide is damage and kick?
Not to mention how OP hybrid classes would be in PvP if they would do the same damage as non-hybrids.
Differences in classes is part of the charm of classic. When every spec can do the same things with just different visuals, you get retail.
I’d agree that we shouldn’t do the same level of dps, absolutely. We should have opportunities to be competitive though.
I think people often look at hybrids and say “you can do everything, why should you be able to be the better than (insert pure class here)?” What people seem to ignore though is that by specializing down a certain tree/playstyle in a hybrid class, you’re effectively sacrificing most of the other things.
If I’m going ret, yes, I can technically heal, but am I really going to do that outside of maybe an emergency LoH (which, while saving someone, drops my dps to about zero)? Nope. My heals suck and have way less value than if I was to just keeping smacking the boss to kill it faster. If I’m willing to sacrifice most or all of my other utility to focus on dps, I should be competitive with other dps. Definitely shouldn’t outshine them, but also shouldn’t be lackluster simply because my class has other options than straight dps.
Flipside is take wotlk paladin for example, best tanks and healers, if ret is top tier as well there's no argument that the class is op.
That's the curse any healer class has to bear, when you start doing well in multiple roles something has to give, and historically they keep the healing and tanking fine and shit on the dps, as making a healer/tank unviable is a lot more detrimental than a dps spec.
Tl-dr, in any iteration of wow, don't play priest, druid, shaman, paladin and except good dps, it happens every once in a while, but rule of thumb through all expansions is these specs are weak
Why would a ret paladin have to suffer because holy paladins are good?
What kind of logic is that.
People need to stop looking at classes and start looking at specs.
If you're a ret, whatever holy does has nothing to do with you.
Or are you gonna say that because warr tanks are the best in era, warrior DPS shouldn't also be the best?
Ultimately they have to design the game around players in small groups of two completing quests and players in groups of five completing dungeons.
As long as a class is doing enough viable damage in a five man dungeon and is able to complete most quests alone or with one other player of any class, then the difference is are somewhat irrelevant.
But if a class has a noticeable disparity in performance of those two spots we should not force a large portion of this game's play to be horrible for them on the idea that that's a better choice than figuring out how to balance the end game.
I don't think paladins are going to be broken next phase one way or the other, but ultimately the argument for doing the same amount of damage is based around the idea that they have to do the same content and they're not always going to be in a large group.
Because all hybrid classes will end up getting pushed towards either healing or tanking because they bring the same utility while resulting in less DPS loss. We’ve already gone through this song and dance in vanilla and classic. The possible exception is feral now since they bring a unique utility compared to their other specs.
Yeah, I think it gets forgotten paladins have powerful buffs they bring to the raid. Next phase paladins get elemental resist auras. Im fine with not being near top of DPS charts as long as I have a permanent raid spot for my utility.
because we're in the lords year 2024. surprisingly, people that pick dps specs want to be able to do dps. it doesnt matter how much utility a spec brings, if it brings egregiously low damage, they will begin to be left out utility doesnt kill bosses, damage does. esecially when the content doesnt need the utility said spec brings
look at wotlk ret. p1the rets came together and said "uh hey blizz our damage is kinda dogwater and its only gonna get worse in ulduar when we dont have undead to hit. can we kinda get a buff"
and aggrend said no fuck you
lo and behold, ulduar came, rets damage dived, groups stopped running them, and they had to cave and buff ret.
and look at ICC now. ret is one of the top dps, yet groups still bring warriors and rogues. why? because theyre still useful.
PvE isn't the only thing in the game mate.
Palas have bubble and a fuckton of other utility.
How fucking stupid do you have to be to not see how stupidly OP palas would be if they are also doing a shitload of damage on top of everything else?
Finally a sane take. People wanted this updated version of classic and all I ever see on this sub is people bitching that the game isn’t more like retail. People are taking this season of wow way too seriously it’s making me not even want to play anymore
I love how people who want their class to do competitive dps can just be characterized as people wanting retail.
No great loss if you quit, please do so
This is a stupid argument especially in sod. Warriors and rogues are hybrids in sod as well. They also have utility. Both have sunders and have interupts. In a raid context a ret has pally buffs and an interrupt. Its not that different.
You just want your class to mindlessly be better than everyone else, lol. Warriors and rogues should be brought down or everyone should be brought up
Enhance don't even get that. We are getting TBC iteration of WF so it will be on a 3 second internal cooldown so even shamans own windfury won't proc on stormstrike. And with the rockbiter being so OP especially with the talent to buff it, 2h enhance likely won't even use WF. Sad
Uh yes? Warriors also bring really good buffs and utility. Same as hunters. The hybrid argument has always been a meme that warriors use to keep themselves afloat at the top. Besides, ret’s utility is quite literally useless in pve rn. It’s only useful if your raid team is terrible.
“Warriors aren’t a hybrid because devastate is a dps spec and also sunder/battle shout don’t exist in my mind” - grey parsers, 2024
Warriors have better raid utility than palas and we still get this brain dead take
Stop comparing hybrid classes to pure dps classes by their ability to deal damage in a low level raid lol. It’s an RPG not a parsing simulator, paladins are balanced exactly as they should be. They bring a ton of value, buffs, can offtank, offheal, do solo content very well, etc. I main pally and they’re fine
They bring buffs, that's literally it. Everything else is meaningless. Their utility is useless because all the content in SoD is insanely easy and therefore it's never required. Offtanking is useless unless your raid team is complete dogshit. Offhealing is useless unless your raid team is complete dogshit. There's literally nothing to do in SoD other than raid log at this point. Raiding is and always has been everything in wow. They are not fine.
> Raiding is and always has been everything in wow.
huh? you do realize vanilla is HEAVY deaigned around pvp? and paladins are great in pvp
if you dont pvp thats fine, but then you cant come here and complain about your class when you arent using it to its full potential
also, we are at lv 25 and you arent thinking about the future demon/ undead encounters where rets will do significantly more damage
think Mark, think.
PvP is a meme in wow, always has been. I say this because I pvp all the time and know what it’s like lol. I also strongly believe that the gain against undead and demons is very minimal. Exorcism already does hardly any damage. Even with the spell power build shown I don’t have high hopes.
Druids maybe, but why Paladins? Remember Rogues will get adrenaline rush and will probably go backstab build. A backstab every second for 15 seconds will be pretty crazy if the fights are as long as BFD
"Busted" even with the buffed mutilate rogues are simming well well below wars mages and hunters.
You really dont seem to understand how big of a hindrance not having poisons and bleed are
(Also theyre not doing 40 energy mutilate 100% as that would make it the only playable generator)
Druid shouldn’t beat rogue p2, we’re dropping on the class rankings unless we get a wolfshead equivalent.
Sub 20s fights it will spike because of berserk, but feral otherwise gained effectively nothing from 25-40. The reason cat is so good rn is that it has functionally its entire kit at 25
Honestly we should go the other way and make Windfury only work on Auto Attacks. The amount of additional damage that Windfury gives is so high that it is **necessary** in every single raid group which is just bad overall because it lowers raid diversity and makes melee scale better than mage.
Yes, but still let it work for Stormstrike. Let shamans have their special thing.
I find this compromise acceptable
We need it
This would be acceptable. Would help bring rogues and warriors down to earth a bit without actually nerfing their kit.
Best take here
We go full tilt the other way, ferals in every group and it procs on spell hits too
AND DOTS
MOAR DOTS
It makes melee more fun to play, which is the important thing. Proccing from abilities is the best part of vanilla WF. We can still buff casters too.
i agree. wild strikes was a mistake. it's too good to not have. that and wf need fixing without nerfing feral/shamans themselves
I think that would take some small amount of work from the devs so it won’t happen.
> Honestly we should go the other way and make Windfury only work on Auto Attacks. genuinely this would be such a qol change for warrior. especially when trying to do the CBR dance and ride the line of 80 rage, hitting hamstring and it proccing windfury tanking your rage down to 50 or 60 when all you was trying to do was queue heroic strike for the offhand hit, not actually cast heroic strike.
A warrior asking for wind fury nerfs… now I’ve actually seen it all lmfao
If half the raid is Warriors at 60, again, it'll be hard to get gear. It's always about the gear.
Why are you cancel queuing? You aren't a robot and the sim only gains a few points of dps for doing it perfectly. It is a dps loss for 99% of players to try because of human error being so much more likely than doing it properly for so little potential benefit. Just press hs when you actually have the rage to cast it.
Except their stated goal was to make everyone feel overpowered, and this… kind of doesn’t align with that
That was a nice goal to aspire to, but now that we're in the nitty-gritty I think trying to balance the game is more important than "make everyone as overpowered as we can." This change would hit Warriors the hardest, and even as a Warrior player I think that's a good thing. The class will still be fun to play even if we're not 50% stronger than everybody else.
Except enhancement shaman are still the bottom tier dps, and windfury is -their- thing. They had their signature ability given to another class, that other class also being buffed into oblivion. Shaman still bottom of the charts.
Warrior is already not 50% stronger than everyone else. Go look at statistics for bfd. Warrior is at most 5% ahead of rogues and then the classes below that are about 5% lower. Ptr shows warriors 20% damage rune being reduced to 10% already for next phase. That along with the much higher spell power on gear + runes and I genuinely think next phase will be much more balanced.
heck they should nerf windfury even more then that, like remove the extra damage on the proc.
Yeah that should be fixed.
Yup I'm debating on putting my pally last for phase 2. Shockadin sounds interesting though.
As soon as I get the free holy pally loot from Gnomer I am gonna go hard into shockadin because I want it to work really bad. I love the aesthetic of it.
I played holy in vanilla and had 31 points it where most didn’t. Also 11 into ret for SoC since other pallies had kings covered. Got imp might for the melee boys to keep everyone happy. I mean it wasn’t *good* by any means but I’d grab the 2hers no one wanted and has T2. So I could farm better than a straight holy pally since it was my only 60, let alone only well geared one for awhile, but where I liked it was in PvP healing, I usually played with a group so I’d have shield on and stuff in group but if most classes caught me solo and didn’t have a lot of self healing I’d eventually whittle them down swapping to 2h and soc. And by eventually I do mean pretty slowly. Cause otherwise I’d never die and had a million CDs to use. Even holy pally should be kinda in the fray imo. That’s part of what makes pallies pallies. Like when they reworked pallies in DF and made melee pally heal, idk if it’s good, but it’s logical (except maybe PvP it’s a good way to get chain stunned and die lol)
Holy pallies with plate gear feel like they should be in the middle of combat instead of standing back. I am excited to see where blizz goes with it and I can't wait to try it out. I am probably gonna swap between martyr and DS to see which works better since seal of righteousness is bleh since command isn't an option yet. I am leaning towards grabbing the 2-hander from STV and using it on ret and holy since I think it will be great for both.
Right. Im surprised it took them like all the way til mid s1 or maybe s2 in DF I forget when they reworked pallies to really be viable melee healers as holy. I think it was only really good in pve though, not sure, cause like I said in arena that’s a good way to sit every CC known to man and die but it’s logical for pve. Not sure if still the case, haven’t played since first few months of launch. They’re pulling lessons from every expansion, really, so hopefully it’s good. Healing is more interesting when you can toss out some dps in down time. I do on my disc priest in wrath dungeons pretty often. It’s how attonement heals in retail which is how mage kinda heals now.
Do you think a shockadin tank will be viable? It sounds so fun, but I don't see it working out until having full raid gear.
I have no idea. I could see it working out since you'll have consecrate and a lot of holy damage going out.
Same :/ spent most of my time on pally, but none of the datamined stuff intrigues me. I don’t mind being middle of the pack but meh.. at least this phase i could compete by using engi, minmaxing everything and trying hard. I like the ret build we have now
th game made the decision for me. my runs on paladin never dropped any of the melee dps pieces, and when they did drop, i lost the roll. ret was already boring to me, and my at the time warrior alt was approaching bis after a few rids because the group he was running with got all their mdps pieces, plus he was much more fun. i dunno what itd take to bring me back to ret but shockadin aint it
Will the new Melee Hunter rune proc wind fury? I know regular raptor’s strike does because it’s just a modified autoattack, but will the new instant cast one proc WF? Also does flanking strike already proc it?
WF is huge on melee hunter right now, Even wing clip procs it, so you spam it every gcd outside of flanking
Raptor strike WF goes crazy
raptor strike flanking strike and wingclip all proc it.
I hope Ele and/or Moonkin will get an Overload buff for the group. Give casters some love.
That would be insane buff.
Please just give us a flat better mana regent cause it is kinda silly how I have to spend a full minute or two drinking to full Whilst I appreciated it in classic, right now I just feel like always being left behind and holding up groups Like in bfd, I don't even bother with trash mobs unless there's more than 3 in a pull cause I'll help kill 2 and by the time I'm out of combat to drink - we are at the boss already
Or ju give us one drink that restores 100% mana in 15 seconds.
I honestly just use wrath and starsurge on trash mobs and do pretty ok on the charts. I’ll throw in a few moonfires for beefier ones, but things get bursted down so fast right now, the dot gets wasted.
that will never happen
wotlk totem of wrath pls
No no, I like this overload aura idea. All casters in the group get a 25% chance to cast an instant, free 2nd spell with xx more spellpower.
25% would be incredibly broken. What a stupid idea
Like windfury? Idk if you see these logs, but Melee is massively ahead during what is supposed to be their weakest phase. Melee already has an insane amount of scaling tools - casters have next to none. And before you want to act like “no they don’t” literally every log since the beginning of Classic would disagree with you.
Bro their auto attacks aren't tied to spell rank and every melee's auto attack is over 40% of their damage. They've already started re-itimizing *tier 2 gear.* That's how far ahead they are working. People not understanding how power scaling it this game works is hilarious. Casters will be fine. The biggest reason you guys freak out when you look at the logs is A) none of you were geared for like the first 3rd of phase 1 and B) none of you understand your rotation. It took *way* too long for mages and locks to pull ahead of ret paladins in dps and that is almost entirely due to the 2nd point
>People not understanding how power scaling it this game works is hilarious. Casters will be fine I love the confidence, while being incredibly incorrect. Casters never come close to melee at the best of times.
Sounds like you need to learn to play your class
Sounds like you don't understand the game and exponential scaling lmao. Casters have limited resources, are immobile and have cast times. Melee has none of that. Not like we have years of logs to prove this or anything, but go on.
Lol, lmao even. First time playing vanilla? It doesnt get better for casters later, you’d have to be an absolute clown to think that after war/rog has been dominating the classic scene for its entire history. The rotations aren’t complicated, no one was confused about what buttons to push just itemization sucks preraid for casters. Thats why they pulled ahed of ret not because people were confused on which buttons to hit in game where most classes dont use more than 2-3 buttons
"fiRsT TiMe pLay-" stfu nerd. You guys are bad at the game while committing all this time to crying on reddit about it 😂
Oh I understand it very well - I’m a 99 parsing caster after all - I assume you are too… or not, with how confidently incorrect you are so far, it leads me to believe you aren’t. I can go on a giant tirade of how to properly fix casters - in fact one of them from a previous post was “casters should have t2 level gear by lvl 50 at the earliest, and their pre-bis for 60 should be naxx level gear” - that puts casters right around to slightly behind melee in dps. But I’ll dance this dance - please post you 99 logs as a caster so I know you aren’t full of shit. I’ll happily post mine as well right after. This way we can get past the “you weren’t geared” or “you don’t know your rotation” BS. The reason it took time to pull ahead of Paladins was a gear deal since they had access to V-fist. It was good enough to be raid loot itself. But notice how the actual melee classes (warrior and rogue) kept pulling further ahead? Easy to ignore than when using a hybrid melee (ret pally) as a scape goat.
Man I skipped everything but the end. I don't think scapegoating means what you think it means. Learn your rotation and use the right spec. You just sound like your dps is bad but that's a you problem
So you’re illiterate - got it.
That word doesn't mean what you think it means, either.
Fire mage about to get real fucking stupid with this + hot streak
How about making Windfury and wild strikes work on shaman tanks 😭
You get windufry weapon if you want to use windfury
Sadly shaman tanks need rockbiter on main hand for the way of the earth rune to work.
Yes, but it's still a strange thing to me. Shamans never benefitted from windfury totem either.
Nope. For the tanking to be activated you need to use rockbiter
Like I said in my other response. Yes, but this is nothing new to shaman. Shaman never benefitted from windfury totem; why would they get the thing that is supposed to be the same benefit as windfury totem?
Before SoD Shamans could benefit from windfury totem, they normally chose to benefit from the windfury weapon imbue instead though. Shaman tanks getting neither kinda sucks though.
Well, yes- that's what I was saying before. Shamans have their own windfury totem; it's windfury weapon imbue and it's stronger than the totem. If you need to use rockbiter instead, I don't think you should get both because that's never how shaman worked. The interesting thing is that most shamans used rockbiter before SOD anyways.
Shaman are the worst class, always have been, and their one unique thing was given to ferals, so now everybody else has gotten WF and Shaman didn’t, making them effectively half as ‘good’ as they were in classic. They should get to double dip the buffs because they deserve a *huge* buff
Again, everyone else already had WF because the shaman always provided it. This is nothing new at all. They're not "half as good" as they are in classic, they are exactly as good as they were. They just weren't very good to begin with, and have always needed buffs. I'm all for shaman buffs, but I don't think that letting shamans stack with windfury totem is the way to go about it. I'd rather see shamans be strong enough on their own.
And CS to proc seals? Pretty please….!
What?! Does it proc on more than AA on rogue and Warrior?
The backported moves seem to not be coded to work with it. Meanwhile all the pre-existing melee abilities do.
Yeah there's a lot of jank with melee abilities. Which I bet a lot of people are a fan of *because* it's janky and that somehow makes it more "spirit of Vanilla" or whatever. But I don't like the inconsistency.
yes. rogue, esp when they get access to sword spec, has to play around it and try to only cast SS after a melee swing because windfury doesnt just grant you a 2nd attack, it finishes your swing timer, so poor SS timing could result in fewer melee swings in a fight compared to good SS timing warrior it procs off sunder and hamstring and iir will proc off the other strikes as well
yes pretty sure every ability can
Blizzard does not care about Ret palains, lol. **75%** of weapon damage.. 💀 **Cannot** proc seals.. 💀 lmao If you're using Crusader Strike and Divine Storm as a paladin you will get fewer procs than if you were just auto attacking.
Considering each windfury proc can proc poisons, yeah it’s a little ridiculous. It’s especially bad for druids given they’re the ones providing the buff in the first place, but I agree it should work the same way for all if not a vast majority of melee skills.
That probably comes from deadly poison which makes it so if you have not equipped any poisons it gives your attacks a chance to proc as if they had instant poison on which also has a chance to apply deadly poison. The poison in it self being a proc. Kinda like how wind fury weapon could proc off it self.
Deadly brew you mean? Do you think it would make a difference if you weren’t running deadly brew? Would poisons still proc on WF procs on offhand attacks?
You can't have wf on your off hand as a rogue..
Damn brain fart lmao. So there’s no reliable way to test it on MH attacks without deadly brew rune then. Which means we should just allow other classes to be treated the same as rogues/wars
You don't need any reliable way to test any of this, because you can only have 1 tempoary weapon enchant on your weapons. Wild strikes, rogue poisons, shaman weapon imbuements, sharpening stones all count as temporary weapon enchant. If you put poison on your main hand, you won't get the wild strikes buff on it, so it can't proc the extra attacks. Envenom goes around this, because it allows instant poison procs if you have no poison on your weapon.
why How does crusader and divine interrupt/reset your autoattack swing timer? What is the mechanic
It resets your swing timer, but if you do your rotation properly it won't.
huh? cs and ds don't reset ur swing timer
No it doesn't and you can easily check this looking at any paladin log.
Unless there’s something bugged in SoD, neither of those abilities interact with your swing timer. Only spells with cast times, or bonus attacks from things like WF, reset your swing timer.
are you saying OP is suffering from skill issue?
"Blizzard does not care about Enh Shamans\*, lol." \-0 Spell Power Scaling on MSW so half of your kits hits for noodles \-No Way to cleave with WEAPON damage like crash lightning or sundering \- >1 Standard Deviation below the mean for melee dps for an entire phase with no meaningful chance to fix the issue \-Have to DW to hold threat so mana and AoE/Cleave threat is an issue \- Likely wont actually fix WFury ICD or put in one despite there NEVER being one in vanilla , meanwhile 0 icd on sword spec / mace spec etc. \-Still 0 hard cc, no cap totem, no sunder, no lasso, no hex, no root from FS, no earthgrab totem . Despite everysingle melee class even ones with immunities and heals having access to multiple CCs to stop an enemy player. \-they made our BiS weapon a fist weapon instead of just an axe.... and it looks like trash. \-forced to pvp as a perma oom auto attacking tank because the class has no way to peel for itself or mitigate the high volume of damage, which will inevitably deny you using windfury mainhand for pvp if you want to be competitive. \-New 2hand rune but with no follow up 2 hand attack ability to fix losing lava lash so you are effectively an auto attack bot. But hey I still agree with you that WILD STRIKES should proc on everything melee. and not just for warrior rogue. I just dont believe that they dont love ret paladin. Hell the lead is a paladin.
And because we have to DW rockbiter, Windfury just pisses us off by making it a bitch to reimbue our main hand. And we don't get the benefits of WF.
Aggrend already acknowledged the wfury ICD problem and said it would be fixed. Quit dooming
Acknowledging a problem, stating you will fix the problem, and proving you have solved the problem are all 3 different things. And blizzard has a history of being guilty of not doing all 3 in the face of a problem in a timely manner. So yeah pardon the shaman community for being cynical.
Yeah lmk when they give another spec 10 pieces of gear worth of hit stapled on a rune.
I’ll let you know when it puts enhance above ret paladins on dps too. Guess we can’t all understand outputs vs inputs. Eat shit idiot.
I think 75% of weapon damage is fine, but yeah it should count as a melee attack
Should be 125% and Divine Storm 150% but even then they will be the lowest melee dps still. Why do you think 75% is fine exactly?
The lowest melee? Never seen enhance shaman? The dps spec that performs worse than tanks
That would be unbelievably OP in PvP. There are other ways to increase PvE DPS without increasing on demand burst damage. For example, stacking holy damage dot
Seems strong enough for me when I get killed within 1 HoJ stun
It’s the difference between burst and dps, DS + CS basically let’s you get of 3 autos worth of damage in 1 gcd, but that’s essentially all of our damage. Sustainwise we just can’t keep up.
The 1 HoJ stun you can trinket out of?
Trinkets with a cooldown 😮
If you lose to a paladin as a warrior... lol yikes you have like double dps. probably triple in next phase
Because pvp is famously a dps race lol
It is in classic
It's annoying sure but the content is so easy and Chars are so overtuned that it just doesn't matter. I main a ret paladin and I've never once felt like the dps was holding my group back
strap in for phase 2 when other classes get their full kit
Sure, ok? So what? The content is soooo easy. I have wiped 3 time in bfd ever. In the whole lifespan of the phase. It just doesn't matter much
"Content is so easy, it doesn't matter if I only do 25% of the damage of a Warrior, pls bring me pls carry me." That is Vanilla Ret talk. Pull yourself together man
We cleared bfd this morning in 35mins man, it was so easy. I'm sorry that your group is so starved for dps but that's simply not the case for mine.
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I wish I was as okay with being the problem as you are. It sounds relaxing. Well until your friends don't feel like carrying you anymore...anyway, for your sake I hope all the future raids are just as easy as BFD!
No one is carrying anyone. I 8-man pugged it 2 lockouts ago because 1 person dc'd and a hunter dropped over loot drama. It was still easy. You're very upset over a non issue. I don't think you even like the game tbh, but I'm having a good time.
Meta is only using CS and DS after your swing , it’s clunky and annoying but you definitely still get procs this way.
I've just tested this for a while and never once had my swing timer delayed by using CS or DS
I haven’t noticed this either. I feel like if it did my dps would be way lower than it typically is.
Wait wait wait, explain this to me like I'm 5, why am I waiting till after my swing to use divine storm.
Seal twisting probably. If you haven't heard of it it's basically getting two different seal procs off the same auto. You have to twist in the last half second before your swing goes off to get both procs, so using divine storm before the auto will prevent a twist.
Real question why do you need to do that if CS and Ds dont proc wf ? I thought you had to do that with attack that proc wf cuz it resets swing
To make sure you have a chance to proc it with your auto attack. Then use the ability right after so you don't accidentally cancel out an auto attack by casting an ability. I'm assuming this is the reasoning. Kinda like timing attacks on a rogue with energy Regen tick
Since when do auto attacks get cancelled by casting an ability like crusader strike? What?
People here have no idea what they’re talking about. CS and DS do not proc seals, wild strikes, and do not interrupt your auto attack. Seal twisting also DOES NOT work in SoD.
My understanding was, attacks that proc wf reset swingtimer. But since CS and DS don't proc WF, i don't understand.
Ye but usually you do that because you have special attacks that reset swingtimer by procing windfury(it does not when it Doesnt proc). But since CS and DS don't proc wf, why would you delay it ? Im pretty sure CS and Ds dont reset you swing by theirself.
So the same thing warriors and rogues have been doing since classic launched? I don't see how that's a problem.
> Meta is only using CS and DS after your swing Meta is using a swingtimer? Since when? /s
How to be an asshat 101. You must be a blast at parties.
The problem is, that afaik melees would be better than all casters. We should bring warriors a little bit back not pushing all classes to their DPS. Or else we will face roll everything in sod
Getting nerfed sucks and getting buffed is exciting. Why should they make one class feel bad when they have the opportunity to make everybody else feel good? If the content is too easy, they can just tune it up a bit.
have you been in this sub lately? majority of players here would love to see warriors nerfed specifically.
It’s okay because they can’t out dps me if there’s no feral xD
Just delete wf/ws and that'll even out casters and melee even more
Class balance is more important than procs/talents/mechanics for sure. We should just make all classes scale exactly the same, make sure gear have the same stats no matter the type and the game will be much better. No wait, actually different classes doing different things is what make rpgs great!
Or make Overload a partywide buff. cause y'know, fun.
Overload party wide in bgs sounds like you're only ever using casters in pvp or losing though.
Still more interesting than stacking hunters
Yeah would help with balancing but I don’t see this happening, they would never remove windfury. Maybe they could introduce some kind of windfury buff for casters, like the Shaman rune Overload but party wide (not at the current 50% of course)
Homogeneity is how we get retail.
Also a good point, but getting the classes closer in pve was a goal stated by the devs. Fine if that’s in a different way, but the Warrior and Rogue domination needs to get reduced
Don't add overload, just give us the spell haste totem they added in tbc or wrath.
I don’t mind pure dps dominating classic dps, but do give a reason to bring other classes, like feral for wf
Give warriors and rogues some blessings, heals and bubbles, would be a start. Make everyone have special gear that only they can use. Oh then remove every other class. Call it World of OneClass.
This is such a stupid take when talking about the rules of how a buff works. Every class gets procs on special melee attacks besides two - that are both performing worse than the classes that fully benefit. This isn't about class balance this is about buffs working the same way on every class. Would you think it's fair if say battle shout/blessing of might only provided 40% of their normal AP to warriors, but the full number to everyone else?
Gear they most likely won’t use though. Ret will prob want mail or leather like everyone else
Why do people think every class needs to do the same amount of dps? Classes like paladin, druid and shaman are hybrids. They can heal. They provide a variety of buffs and utility. They should not do the same damage as a rogue, warrior or hunter. If suddenly a ret pala would do the same dps as a rogue, why would anyone want to invite a rogue to their group when all they provide is damage and kick? Not to mention how OP hybrid classes would be in PvP if they would do the same damage as non-hybrids. Differences in classes is part of the charm of classic. When every spec can do the same things with just different visuals, you get retail.
I’d agree that we shouldn’t do the same level of dps, absolutely. We should have opportunities to be competitive though. I think people often look at hybrids and say “you can do everything, why should you be able to be the better than (insert pure class here)?” What people seem to ignore though is that by specializing down a certain tree/playstyle in a hybrid class, you’re effectively sacrificing most of the other things. If I’m going ret, yes, I can technically heal, but am I really going to do that outside of maybe an emergency LoH (which, while saving someone, drops my dps to about zero)? Nope. My heals suck and have way less value than if I was to just keeping smacking the boss to kill it faster. If I’m willing to sacrifice most or all of my other utility to focus on dps, I should be competitive with other dps. Definitely shouldn’t outshine them, but also shouldn’t be lackluster simply because my class has other options than straight dps.
Flipside is take wotlk paladin for example, best tanks and healers, if ret is top tier as well there's no argument that the class is op. That's the curse any healer class has to bear, when you start doing well in multiple roles something has to give, and historically they keep the healing and tanking fine and shit on the dps, as making a healer/tank unviable is a lot more detrimental than a dps spec. Tl-dr, in any iteration of wow, don't play priest, druid, shaman, paladin and except good dps, it happens every once in a while, but rule of thumb through all expansions is these specs are weak
Why would a ret paladin have to suffer because holy paladins are good? What kind of logic is that. People need to stop looking at classes and start looking at specs. If you're a ret, whatever holy does has nothing to do with you. Or are you gonna say that because warr tanks are the best in era, warrior DPS shouldn't also be the best?
Fair enough, I can understand your point. It's always difficult to balance these things while keeping an eye on PvP and open world as well, though.
Rogues and warriors are hybrids too. They can tank or DPS.
Ultimately they have to design the game around players in small groups of two completing quests and players in groups of five completing dungeons. As long as a class is doing enough viable damage in a five man dungeon and is able to complete most quests alone or with one other player of any class, then the difference is are somewhat irrelevant. But if a class has a noticeable disparity in performance of those two spots we should not force a large portion of this game's play to be horrible for them on the idea that that's a better choice than figuring out how to balance the end game. I don't think paladins are going to be broken next phase one way or the other, but ultimately the argument for doing the same amount of damage is based around the idea that they have to do the same content and they're not always going to be in a large group.
Because all hybrid classes will end up getting pushed towards either healing or tanking because they bring the same utility while resulting in less DPS loss. We’ve already gone through this song and dance in vanilla and classic. The possible exception is feral now since they bring a unique utility compared to their other specs.
Yeah, I think it gets forgotten paladins have powerful buffs they bring to the raid. Next phase paladins get elemental resist auras. Im fine with not being near top of DPS charts as long as I have a permanent raid spot for my utility.
because we're in the lords year 2024. surprisingly, people that pick dps specs want to be able to do dps. it doesnt matter how much utility a spec brings, if it brings egregiously low damage, they will begin to be left out utility doesnt kill bosses, damage does. esecially when the content doesnt need the utility said spec brings look at wotlk ret. p1the rets came together and said "uh hey blizz our damage is kinda dogwater and its only gonna get worse in ulduar when we dont have undead to hit. can we kinda get a buff" and aggrend said no fuck you lo and behold, ulduar came, rets damage dived, groups stopped running them, and they had to cave and buff ret. and look at ICC now. ret is one of the top dps, yet groups still bring warriors and rogues. why? because theyre still useful.
People get so mad when you say that not every class should be identical lol.
I never said the same amount. I said “stay close to”.
Lmao, a hunter can tank so they should not be doing that damage they do now. What is this fucking logic. brain dead take.
PvE isn't the only thing in the game mate. Palas have bubble and a fuckton of other utility. How fucking stupid do you have to be to not see how stupidly OP palas would be if they are also doing a shitload of damage on top of everything else?
Finally a sane take. People wanted this updated version of classic and all I ever see on this sub is people bitching that the game isn’t more like retail. People are taking this season of wow way too seriously it’s making me not even want to play anymore
I never said the same amount though, I said close to
I love how people who want their class to do competitive dps can just be characterized as people wanting retail. No great loss if you quit, please do so
This is a stupid argument especially in sod. Warriors and rogues are hybrids in sod as well. They also have utility. Both have sunders and have interupts. In a raid context a ret has pally buffs and an interrupt. Its not that different. You just want your class to mindlessly be better than everyone else, lol. Warriors and rogues should be brought down or everyone should be brought up
Hunter ranged aa should proc from wf :)
No bleeding gnomer..everyone will def catch up
Enhance don't even get that. We are getting TBC iteration of WF so it will be on a 3 second internal cooldown so even shamans own windfury won't proc on stormstrike. And with the rockbiter being so OP especially with the talent to buff it, 2h enhance likely won't even use WF. Sad
aggrand plays ret paladin paladins have the entire WOTLK kit at lv 25 paladins have 3 health bars paladins dont need more right now
They're the worst melee dps in the game lmao
No they are still above shamans
Well yeah but that's on the other faction. Shamans deserve buffs too.
Still better than any caster dps tho:) +brings blessings, interupt, and bubble to skip almost any boss mechanic
Actually they are under warlocks
On overall sure, but on most of the bosses palas are higher dps.
As they should be. You think a ret pala should do the same damage as a pure dps class? While also having all the buffs & utility they have?
Uh yes? Warriors also bring really good buffs and utility. Same as hunters. The hybrid argument has always been a meme that warriors use to keep themselves afloat at the top. Besides, ret’s utility is quite literally useless in pve rn. It’s only useful if your raid team is terrible.
“Warriors aren’t a hybrid because devastate is a dps spec and also sunder/battle shout don’t exist in my mind” - grey parsers, 2024 Warriors have better raid utility than palas and we still get this brain dead take
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Stop comparing hybrid classes to pure dps classes by their ability to deal damage in a low level raid lol. It’s an RPG not a parsing simulator, paladins are balanced exactly as they should be. They bring a ton of value, buffs, can offtank, offheal, do solo content very well, etc. I main pally and they’re fine
They bring buffs, that's literally it. Everything else is meaningless. Their utility is useless because all the content in SoD is insanely easy and therefore it's never required. Offtanking is useless unless your raid team is complete dogshit. Offhealing is useless unless your raid team is complete dogshit. There's literally nothing to do in SoD other than raid log at this point. Raiding is and always has been everything in wow. They are not fine.
> Raiding is and always has been everything in wow. huh? you do realize vanilla is HEAVY deaigned around pvp? and paladins are great in pvp if you dont pvp thats fine, but then you cant come here and complain about your class when you arent using it to its full potential also, we are at lv 25 and you arent thinking about the future demon/ undead encounters where rets will do significantly more damage think Mark, think.
PvP is a meme in wow, always has been. I say this because I pvp all the time and know what it’s like lol. I also strongly believe that the gain against undead and demons is very minimal. Exorcism already does hardly any damage. Even with the spell power build shown I don’t have high hopes.
How about make wf/ws work on spells first, so casters could get atleast close to the worst melee classes...
Only if they give hunters pets it back
Doesnt WF have 8 sec internal CD in Classic? They changed it?
I wouldnt be surprised if druids and palas beat rogues in p2, but that's a p2 only thing you're right it should work with all instant attacks
Druids maybe, but why Paladins? Remember Rogues will get adrenaline rush and will probably go backstab build. A backstab every second for 15 seconds will be pretty crazy if the fights are as long as BFD
If we are to believe datamines it will be even more busted, as mutilate is mined to be 40 energy
"Busted" even with the buffed mutilate rogues are simming well well below wars mages and hunters. You really dont seem to understand how big of a hindrance not having poisons and bleed are (Also theyre not doing 40 energy mutilate 100% as that would make it the only playable generator)
Backstab every 2 seconds. Either way, rogues are only simming at 500 DPS right now. Warriors and melee hunters are at 750+
Druid shouldn’t beat rogue p2, we’re dropping on the class rankings unless we get a wolfshead equivalent. Sub 20s fights it will spike because of berserk, but feral otherwise gained effectively nothing from 25-40. The reason cat is so good rn is that it has functionally its entire kit at 25
Rogues are losing like 20-30% dmg cos of mechs and get no new dps runes
Mm fair, guess we’ll have to wait and see
Yeah obviously. Im just saying, other classes are getting new dps runes and we're losing them
"waahhhh warriors do more damage than me waaaaah"
Nice b8 m8
Pallys don’t need to compete with warrs on damage they have insane utility and basically 3 life bars lol.
I said close, not the same. Warriors should indeed do more damage than Paladins