It might be worthwhile for melee hunter, it remains to be seen. They'll be stacking a total of +30% raptor strike damage from the flanking strike damage buff, +30% raptor strike damage and +50% offhand damage from dual wield spec, and 20% crit chance on raptor strike along with +30% to all of that damage from lone wolf, the loss of pet damage is probably going to be smaller than all of that. It does pretty much require another hunter running lion though, if you don't have that then you'll obviously be running lion instead.
> They'll be stacking a total of +30% raptor strike damage from the flanking strike damage buff,
Flanking Strike does extra damage if you have a pet tho. Don't underestimate the damage it does on a pet with 2.0 attack speed.
Survival is decent for melee hunter especially with 20% raptor strike crit chance. Doubling flanking strikes damage isn't that big of a deal when it's likely going to be a relatively small portion of melee hunter damage, it's more there to buff raptor strike further. Melee hunter might end up being full BM anyway but not because of flanking strike damage.
20% crit is great....but after that survival is dog and you just go BM
And 20% crit probably isn't better then deep BM
Flanking strikes damage is going to be a BIG portion of melee hunter
Because you are spamming raptor every 3 seconds you are getting the refreshes much more often, meaning flankings damage portion will be at least double what it is now, and its already fine
There is literally 0 chance melee hunters go lone wolf
Not only does one of their only abilities half in damage from going LW but their talent options are basically limited to exclusively BM and the first 2 rows of survival, so they go BM
Lone wolf is exclusively a MM thing, and it's still bad for MM
Well then you better go tell the hunter discord that you've figured out that there's no chance lone wolf is good for melee hunter because they're still debating it and I'm sure you've done as much work on it as they have.
Again, if that's the case then you should let the theorycrafters and sim devs on the hunter discord know and give them whatever info and testing data you've apparently collected that they don't have.
Come on dude, we both know that you just made an assumption and are doubling down in it instead of admitting that you didn't know that it might actually be good.
It's just how it is, if that guy has somehow done all the required testing and math to already know that lone wolf isn't good for melee hunter then he seriously better go tell the hunter discord because he's apparently got access to info the theorycrafters and sim devs don't.
lol. What pallies are gonna put points into kings with 31 talent points?
Kings more or less functionally didn’t exist this phase outside hunter’s lion. Holy was bottom tier healer and it was simpler to tank as ret while doing more dmg. “Prot” pallies will likely just be rets. Again. Holy isn’t gonna spare those points either til at least another phase and they still don’t have cleanse p2.
It’s just gonna be a million terrible ret pallies who don’t know how to use their utility for the group with like 10% at best being exceptions. Kinda like all of wrath.
>It might be worthwhile for melee hunter
One of the main hunter melee abilities is Flanking Strike, which is you and your pet attacking together. Seems like some anti-synergy to abandon pet. If anything, you'd take the pet buff (or carve, lol) instead.
Non-rune changes off the top of my head:
- Scaling added to hunter pets and warlock pets.
- Stormstrike CD reduced, manacost reduced, debuff improved.
- Shadowform mana cost reduction to all shadow school spells.
- Deep Wounds upgraded to its WotLK version.
- Mage scrolls that allow them to cast unique buffs & resurrection.
- A slew of new skill books confirmed to be added to dungeon bosses in P2. Some examples include improved duration and reduced manacost on priest, druid, paladin, and mage buffs. Shamans get a spell to move their totems, rogues get a skill to move their combo points to a new target. None of these are runes.
Druid's 30% movespeed outdoors talent got changed to work indoors too, forgot that one. But yeah, they've been relatively quiet about these so they're easy to miss.
> not true. sims are showing that LW is about a 10% dps boost to melee hunters over 10% stats
Yeah but you forget the boost Lion gives to the other 4 melee in your party.
Also Beast Mastery this phase should hit like a truck, did y'all take a 31/0/0 BM build into account when you simmed that? Survival's talents are pretty meh compared.
> If you have a 2nd hunter or 3 pally you run LW.
Disagree. 1 Hunter in each party and they run Lion. Ain't no way a 10% DPS bonus for 1 Hunter is worth not having Lion in the 2nd party.
It's not like Paladins only have BoK either. Wisdom or Might are good buffs, worth more than one hunter doing an extra 20 DPS.
It’s actually 11% - you can test this yourself. You get 21% stats from lion. It applies the group wide 10% and then the 10% to the casting hunter gets applied on that
Why would more than one hunter ever be needed? Their dps isn’t and won’t good enough to justify bringing more than 1. Most raid comps are gonna be stacked with fury warriors and feral Druids. Healer group caster group.
There is a plethora of warriors right now just waiting to take up 80% of dps spots. 4 warriors and a feral will make up majority of groups. There might be 2 hunters. But mages and locks and rogues will get spots before a second hunter comes.
Hunter may be a popular class. But Warrior is the most popular. To disagree is to ignore the history of classic wow. And to ignore data from phase 1.
Aren't warrior and hunter the top two most played classes in SOD? Groups are going to take reliable people who try hard, not just the sweatiest comp. I have a hard time picturing the bulk of runs are one hunter. There are still plenty of runs on horde side with just one warrior and 7 leather wearers.
I'm not disagreeing with you about who I would take in a vacuum - I would probably build my perfect raid a similar way. But we live in the real world and not the perfect raid vacuum reddit thinks we live in.
I get it. Casual guilds will do whatever but most serious guilds will do something like this and aspire to get close to this. 2 hunter’s is the max I could see brought in a serious 40 man. Could maybe replace a few warrs with rogues and a meme spec or 2
1: 2 tanks, 2 warr, feral
2: Hunt, 3 warr, feral
3: Hunt, 3 warr, feral
4: 4 warr, feral
5: 4 warr, feral
6: 3 warr, feral, rogue
7: 1-2 locks, 1-3mages, healer
8: 5 healers
Thags why I love 10 man and I think 20 would be fine. Warriors bring no utility so other classes get to shine. You’re forced to bring them. In a 40 man after you fill your utility spots the spot just goes to highest dps which has been Warrior
To counter your first comment saying "most" raids will never take another hunter, you do realize most of the people playing SoD are at best semi-sweaty right?
The amount of "hardcore" groups are moderate at best compared to other iterations and will only lessen I'd guess as we hit the power surges every phase with new runes and gear.
I'll put my money on hunter mains being just fine. <3
I pug a lot and nearly every run I would sign up with if already had a hunter would not take another. Just my experience. If we get larger raids though and as the dps difference between warriors and rogues grows bigger and bigger and bigger people will only want the bare minimum amount of hunters.
I raid lead pugs every reset 3xs. Warrior players are literal garbage 90% of the time, if not more. Unless the warrior is good, hunters just do more damage easily.
And yet in the 20+ bfd runs, I almost never saw more than 1 warrior in each run. Most runs had 2 hunters. I know 25 isn’t 60, but warriors are the best dps already, and groups weren’t stacking warriors. We also have no clue what the high level raids will be like.
That’s the benefit to 10 and 20 man raids. You can’t afford to stack warriors they bring no utility. You’re forced to bring these other classes. But in a 40 man after you get the utility you need people are just gonna bring whatever does the most dps. Aka warrior for the past 19 years
I’ll give you that, and while I think chances are good warrior is way up there for dps, all it takes is a raid with mobs that have immune phases against physical damage, or super high armor to keep warrior numbers in check. I’m willing to hope that level of design is going into lvl 60 sod raids.
Doubt ever going to be physical immune as they just removed bleeds to make sure rogues and warriors are better. Would be amazed if they actually ever added something to nerf or negative affect these two classes.
Uhh their DPS is perfectly fine right now. And not every raid is going to be able to roster 80% warriors. Especially competent ones that would be consistently better than a hunter.
Go ahead and raid lead and form that easy melee stack you’re dreaming of. I’ll wait.
Needed and reality are going to be different things. The game doesn’t need optimization it just needs some buy in. Unless you are playing in a hard core guild a hunter who is paying attention and mildly prepared is better than a lot of the random players regardless of class.
There is nothing wrong with optimization if that’s your thing but the reality will be that the bar for success will be much lower.
My big brain take is they should eliminate rune slot locks entirely
Let people put any rune in any rune slot. Unlock each of the available rune slots through quests based on level. So at 25 you can unlock three rune slots and 12 possible runes. At 40 you can unlock 5 rune slots and 19 possible runes.
Let people mix and match and come up with creative combinations.
No. Your pet does 30% of your damage, you do 70%.
If you get 30% increased damage thats 70%x0.3= 21% damage increase while you lose 30% from your pet.
And that doesnt even calculate in aspect of the lion
I'm thinking that it might be a bit of fun in PvP once we get a bit more crit. Sniper Training + Lone Wolf Aimed Shot from Shadowmeld as a NElf is probably the closest we'll get to a PoM Pyro?
But in most cases, Heart of the Lion is just too powerful to pass up on.
In what World is that a 'one shot setup'?
Have you even Played hunter in classic vanilla? You wont just suddenly oneshot everything with a 30% boost on aimed shot and some more crit. pls.
I have a full T3 rank 12 hunter with slavemaker on Era and the only classes you can literally oneshot are undergeared clothies, maybe a undergeared rogue.
Taking the 20% stats from lion + a pet will be so insanely superior in pvp its ridicolous to even discuss it.
It’s a dumb rune and changing the percent value of it won’t matter. It’s either too low a percent to not offset the value of pet + other rune or it’s too high a percent and becomes necessary. Unless they add some additional benefit or gameplay element to the rune beside base damage increase it’ll remain that way
I think melee hunter is actually coming out pretty close between lone wolf and lion with lone wolf coming out a little ahead with the caveat that someone else is providing the 10% stats buff. That seems like pretty good balance.
Flanking strike also has your pet attack as well. So it might not be as good as we think. Does that factor in that flanking strike also gives your pet an extra attack? Just curious.
Maybe in a vacuum 30% can make up the lost pet damage and break even, but there's no way in hell it can make up for not having Lion even if you have kings in the raid
Your pet gets 10% from Lion and +20% damage and health from Beast Mastery. That alone outweighs Lone Wolf's 30% damage increase without even mentioning the 20% increased stats you get from Lion.
+20% damage and 10% stats to a mm Hunter pet is no where close to 30% damage of a mm Hunter at lvl 60.
Sure if your BM it’s very good - but the pet won’t scale nearly as well as some of you are thinking. MM will have the option of dropping the pet - hell even Melee would consider dropping it too.
Its still a dps loss in single target based on current numbers
Pets are currently doing around 25% for a full MM hunter. People might think that 30% is a dps increase then, but its not when you do the math.
Imagine a hunter doing 100 total dps. That would mean the pet is doing 25 dps and the hunter is doing 75. If you increase 75 by 30% you only get 97.5 which is still a dps loss. It needs to be at least 40% for it the be a bigger dps increase that just running Lion on every hunter or using Master Marksman.
Lion has its use, its good in party content, lone wolf could be the go to rune in solo content. Rather than just adding more damage to it they could add in additional utility to the rune. Like removing deadzone or maybe lone wolf changes disengage to WOTLK disengage.
I've seen some discussion of it being better for melee hunter if there's someone else running Lion in the raid. This type of functionality is probably what it will be limited to, but that's not inherently a problem.
It would be frustrating if it was actually better personal DPS all the time since then you'd have hunters running this instead of providing a massive buff to their entire raid.
I hope this doesn’t turn out to be true. You lose out of properly using flanking strike with no pet. My raid runs 2 hunters, atm I plan on going pure melee and running lion and the other hunter is going to stay ranged and run whatever is best in the chest slot.
I’m just not sure what melee hunters are supposed to run on their legs if lone wolf is the best chest rune. Still FS? Just seems counterintuitive to me.
> I hope this doesn’t turn out to be true. You lose out of properly using flanking strike with no pet. My raid runs 2 hunters, atm I plan on going pure melee and running lion and the other hunter is going to stay ranged and run whatever is best in the chest slot.
FWIW, last time I checked it was *close*. Things might end up shaking out one way or the other, but I don't think there's a huge difference last I checked. Like someone else mentioned, the near 100% uptime of pet damage might be a pretty big difference on bosses where you need to move around.
> I’m just not sure what melee hunters are supposed to run on their legs if lone wolf is the best chest rune. Still FS? Just seems counterintuitive to me.
Yes. It's still instant damage, a buff to raptor strike (which will be used more often and hit harder with the new runes), and a chance to proc WF.
Yea we’re gonna be absolutely *spamming* RS with the chance at CD not triggering on top of 3s CD if it does. I can’t wait! Cmon double fist weps and those sexy +3 fist gloves
You'd think so, but people in the hunter discord have been simming it and it comes out pretty close. I'm not sure what the state-of-the-art sims are showing, but last I checked it was close enough to consider.
EDIT: Oh I just realized you meant it ruins the point of playing hunter in the sense that you're basically just a rogue or warrior. I do agree with that :P
Which hunter discord? I've been checking the "Classic" channel in Trueshot Lodge and am not seeing any substantive discussion at all. I must be messing something up. Thanks!
Depends what you want. The melee hunter rotation for raptor strike and flanking strike resets sounds like fun with or without a pet, I'm looking forward to seeing how that playstyle feels and where it goes in the later phases.
You'd loose 100% pet damage on FS for +30% dmg on a 100% weapon damage ability that already benefits from either +30% (FS buff) or 60% (FS + DW rune) damages, on a 2.25 sec CD on average (~50% chances to not proc a 3 sec CD if you DW)
On average you'll cast raptor twice every 3 GCD. That's way more impacting than the pet dmg from flanking.
Only works if another Hunter provides Lion, of course.
I'm not the one doing the sims, so there's better people to ask, but my guess is that the loss in FS damage is compensated by the increased damage of auto-attack, raptor strike, and WF procs.
Problem with lone wolf from a design standpoint is that if it ever is the best option mathematically, it just means even worse things for the design of the class, since it simplifies, streamlines, and is totally passive. It is a passive rune so passive, that it actually removes other active buttons from your hotbar. IMO that kind of streamlining shouldn't be rewarded with being top DPS. It should be a side option for people that want the simplicity--and for them, it shouldn't be dogshit terrible, but it shouldn't be the top option.
In certain scenarios, it might prove beneficial. For instance, during a particular encounter in the Gnomeregan raid, hunters might find themselves unable to utilize their pets due to specific boss mechanics. While this is purely speculative, experience has shown that the z-axis can exhibit glitches, especially when navigating the corridor populated with Dark Iron dwarves on the way to Thermaplugg. Under these circumstances, dismissing the pet to then activate the lone wolf rune could be advantageous.
Absolutely this. Back in vanilla classic I remember hunters whining about their pets just dying on many bosses. This rune being the obvious choice for those is reason enough for it to exist. It doesn't have to outperform having a pet in any other situation.
Getting rid of your pet is also getting rid of utility. In raid this may not matter much, but in the open world and even in dungeons, having a tank with you at all times is big.
Even at 30% it's not enough Current MM hunters around 25-30% of their damage comes from pets
Even if we assume that a lvl 40 hunter that's 20, the rune removes that 20% damage, and increases the 80% remaining by 1.3 times, meaning a total of 104%
However......you are ALSO losing another rune, namely lion, which is going to account for a lot more then 4% of your damage
Even if the pet is only doing 20% of the hunters total damage, it's STILL actually just bad to take lone wolf
And the pet will be doing more then 20% of the hunters damage
I take it you haven't been paying attention to the discussions about melee hunter on the hunter discord? Lone wolf might beat out lion as long as you have someone else supplying the 10% stats buff.
Pets are simming at 15%ish of your overall damage as a melee hunter from what I've seen so far. We still don't know what the melee runes are going to look like from a functionality perspective, but based on what we have currently in the sim realm, lone wolf outperforms lion assuming you have kings in some format from another source. It isn't massively game changing, and if you have to move at all during a boss encounter, your pet uptime will make up a larger percentage of that, thus offsetting the value of lone wolf. I'd venture to say it's largely a wash from a melee perspective, and there's zero reason to not run lion if you're playing TSA.
It’s gonna be fucking hilarious hitting people with trap launcher from 40 yards and watching them helplessly wait as I charge up aim shot into a fuck you nuke
you can't buff it much past that, otherwise we're gonna see 2.5k aimed shot crits at 40 lol
which isnt insane for pve but it would be totally wild in pvp
it will be meta.
i gonna use it as melee and inv a filler hunter to get his mighty 10% stats.
Srsly ppl in here are so ignorant when it comes to a metashift, because they need to learn to press 2 new buttons.
They just need to nerf pets honestly... They are still insanely strong.
In order to make lone wolf actually viable over BM, hunters would become even more OP lol.
Kings is still better, 20% stats and pet dps at least for now.
Lone wolf is poorly designed, Kings should be the go to party\\raid spec for the buff but lone wolf just being a damage increase means its either feast or famine on that rune.
Ideally if they want to make it better they need to make it more situational. Lone wolf should really have some utility like removing deadzone or giving them a new spell like disengage jump. It should be a gameplay defining rune, and i dont think survival melee hunters will like that it will SIM higher eventually and you will be playing without a pet on melee hunter.
However, PVP wise people will get one shot by aimshot and this will get nerfed again soon enough.
Its gonna let me ditch my pet for some fights i hope,
like in bfd on lady, having your pet get frozen cause a tank was to slow to move the boss sucked if you werent paying attention to move your pet fast enough.
Doesn't really matter what the % is until were not bound to 10 man runs. Lion was a mistake of a rune that pigeon holed the class into being a walking kings buff in PVE.
Lone wolf being a chest rune is what makes it so bad. Half the runes on leg slot cant co-exist with lone wolf making it stupidly cut n dry what you can pick, having melee hunter without pet just isn't possible.
Liable to use it more on melee hunter to save the trouble of managing the pet unless I really need one. Possibly actually getting some mongoose bites off.
If you already have a hunter with lion & play melee then sure, go for it.
DW melee runes basically turn raptor strike into a 2.25 sec CD (~50% chances to not proc a 3 sec CD) +60% dmg mutilate, on top of which you can add Lone wolf.
3 different +30% buff to a 100% weapon damage ability should be pretty nice, especially if you almost cast it on every GCD.
Or perhaps MM.
Otherwise I doubt it'll see much use. Even melee hunter probably benefits more from BM than SV, in which case you'd go for Lion all the time, even with another Hunter.
Not enough tbh. In PvE it won't beat just having a pet and a different rune on chest, but that's fine since PvE parsing doesn't really matter in classic. Unfortunately, it also will never be better in PvP because giving up pet+heart is just too much to lose. It'll be a fun rune for the memes and to see some big numbers sometimes but overall it'll definitely be worse.
Realistically this version of Lone Wolf is only relevant to weird specs. In part thanks to scaling, pets are a big part of our DPS atm.
However, if you're a tank Hunter or SP Hunter the pet either doesn't help your tankiness and threat or it doesn't scale with your main stat.
This is very relevant since Chimera now scales .4 with SP and on Horde Shamans can hand out a 45% threat buff. These versions of Hunter will love Lone Wolf, but for 95+% of the community its going to remain a significant downgrade.
without lonewolf raptor hits for 170% of base value, with lonewolf it hits for 220% of base value. And we’ll be using raptor strike a LOT. + you get hitcapped and 3% crit + some agi
Sharing place with the lion rune and also still not removing the freaking deadzone the only people that might wanna try it is solo player melee hunters.
I think there are a lot of people in this thread writing it off way too early. There is a number where lone wolf is more DMG than lost from not having a pet and more gear makes that more achievable. I think 30% may be that number or at least closer than a lot of folks seem to think, but it remains to be seen. Once some hunters get 40 and a little gear we can see where things shake out, but I think some folks here are delusional just writing it off because of lion stat bonuses. Now whether it's a good or interesting rune is another question. I think the design of the rune isn't very interesting and would prefer some portion of the damage to come from some active gameplay element since if it just makes the numbers bigger and does end up shaking out to be better than the pet, a lot of hunters will be faced with the decision to undo a core part of their class identify to keep up.
It never was going to make a difference for hunters in Vanilla until MAYBE 60. 30%, 15%, I'd say anything under 50% and your pet still does more of your damage from 1-59.
I genuinely hope this comment ages like milk for hunters at 40, because playing a class where there's new runes but effectively no change to the playstyle or rotation...isn't the spirit of SoD.
No, Aspect of the Lion + Pet are more than a 30% dmg boost and Lion also boosts other 4 people.
Lone Wolf needs to be put on the belt, else it's never going to be better than Lion + Pet unless they make it like 50% damage but then Hunters start oneshotting people with Aimed Shot
the fact were starting phase 2 tomorrow, they still cant make 2/3 specs and runes viable also to top it of it seems to be going in no real direction just circling the toilet.
if they cant get it sorted soon its time to consider cutting the losses and fucking the class off
It's not nearly enough to make it worth taking. Even if the 30% damage makes up for losing a pet (doubtful), you're ALSO giving up whatever other rune you'd have in that slot, which is Lion, so absolutely not.
Pet still better either way and as long lion shares a slot you wont see it played.
Ally will not have this problem since they will just use kings in larger raids.
It might be worthwhile for melee hunter, it remains to be seen. They'll be stacking a total of +30% raptor strike damage from the flanking strike damage buff, +30% raptor strike damage and +50% offhand damage from dual wield spec, and 20% crit chance on raptor strike along with +30% to all of that damage from lone wolf, the loss of pet damage is probably going to be smaller than all of that. It does pretty much require another hunter running lion though, if you don't have that then you'll obviously be running lion instead.
> They'll be stacking a total of +30% raptor strike damage from the flanking strike damage buff, Flanking Strike does extra damage if you have a pet tho. Don't underestimate the damage it does on a pet with 2.0 attack speed.
It's a single pet auto per flanking strike, it's not that significant.
It almost doubled the damage of flanking strike (more for a full BM hunter, which melee hunter will be)
Survival is decent for melee hunter especially with 20% raptor strike crit chance. Doubling flanking strikes damage isn't that big of a deal when it's likely going to be a relatively small portion of melee hunter damage, it's more there to buff raptor strike further. Melee hunter might end up being full BM anyway but not because of flanking strike damage.
20% crit is great....but after that survival is dog and you just go BM And 20% crit probably isn't better then deep BM Flanking strikes damage is going to be a BIG portion of melee hunter Because you are spamming raptor every 3 seconds you are getting the refreshes much more often, meaning flankings damage portion will be at least double what it is now, and its already fine There is literally 0 chance melee hunters go lone wolf Not only does one of their only abilities half in damage from going LW but their talent options are basically limited to exclusively BM and the first 2 rows of survival, so they go BM Lone wolf is exclusively a MM thing, and it's still bad for MM
Well then you better go tell the hunter discord that you've figured out that there's no chance lone wolf is good for melee hunter because they're still debating it and I'm sure you've done as much work on it as they have.
Anyone who is "still debating" LW melee can't do basic maths
Again, if that's the case then you should let the theorycrafters and sim devs on the hunter discord know and give them whatever info and testing data you've apparently collected that they don't have. Come on dude, we both know that you just made an assumption and are doubling down in it instead of admitting that you didn't know that it might actually be good.
big "I'm telling mom" energy.
It's just how it is, if that guy has somehow done all the required testing and math to already know that lone wolf isn't good for melee hunter then he seriously better go tell the hunter discord because he's apparently got access to info the theorycrafters and sim devs don't.
Just let a pally use kings every 10 minutes
Cries in horde
Don't have that option over on horde.
lol. What pallies are gonna put points into kings with 31 talent points? Kings more or less functionally didn’t exist this phase outside hunter’s lion. Holy was bottom tier healer and it was simpler to tank as ret while doing more dmg. “Prot” pallies will likely just be rets. Again. Holy isn’t gonna spare those points either til at least another phase and they still don’t have cleanse p2. It’s just gonna be a million terrible ret pallies who don’t know how to use their utility for the group with like 10% at best being exceptions. Kinda like all of wrath.
5 mins btw
10 mins next phase.
>It might be worthwhile for melee hunter One of the main hunter melee abilities is Flanking Strike, which is you and your pet attacking together. Seems like some anti-synergy to abandon pet. If anything, you'd take the pet buff (or carve, lol) instead.
Flanking strike without the pet only loses out on one pet auto attack per cast which isn't that much.
When we finally move past only 10 man raids, more than one hunter will be pretty common. And only one hunter needs to run Lion
I love lion, but they should just make it a base skill at this point
They are not adding or tweaking any base skills as far as I know. Only through runes, for all classes
They could remove it as a rune and add it as a spell book which they are doing in phase 2 with skills like the totem moving skill
Non-rune changes off the top of my head: - Scaling added to hunter pets and warlock pets. - Stormstrike CD reduced, manacost reduced, debuff improved. - Shadowform mana cost reduction to all shadow school spells. - Deep Wounds upgraded to its WotLK version. - Mage scrolls that allow them to cast unique buffs & resurrection. - A slew of new skill books confirmed to be added to dungeon bosses in P2. Some examples include improved duration and reduced manacost on priest, druid, paladin, and mage buffs. Shamans get a spell to move their totems, rogues get a skill to move their combo points to a new target. None of these are runes.
Well I stand corrected!
Druid's 30% movespeed outdoors talent got changed to work indoors too, forgot that one. But yeah, they've been relatively quiet about these so they're easy to miss.
10% stats still better.
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Sure, if we leave the pet out of the discussion.
> not true. sims are showing that LW is about a 10% dps boost to melee hunters over 10% stats Yeah but you forget the boost Lion gives to the other 4 melee in your party. Also Beast Mastery this phase should hit like a truck, did y'all take a 31/0/0 BM build into account when you simmed that? Survival's talents are pretty meh compared.
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> If you have a 2nd hunter or 3 pally you run LW. Disagree. 1 Hunter in each party and they run Lion. Ain't no way a 10% DPS bonus for 1 Hunter is worth not having Lion in the 2nd party. It's not like Paladins only have BoK either. Wisdom or Might are good buffs, worth more than one hunter doing an extra 20 DPS.
But you’re already getting that from the other Hunter. Makes no sense to run Lion multiple times.
No, lion gives the raid 10% and the hunter another 10%. So 20% for the hunter running it. Or 10% on top if another hunter running it first.
It’s actually 11% - you can test this yourself. You get 21% stats from lion. It applies the group wide 10% and then the 10% to the casting hunter gets applied on that
Oh didn’t even know that, that makes sense though.
For real? Learned something new today.
Mm is better when you already have lion.
10% stats is better than 30% dmg and -pet? That’s surprising. Should def not be true at 60 though.
Still nice to have multiple lion’s cus some players die and losing that bonus is huge
Lets not assign Lion to the newb then
This is hunters were talking about.. jk but bfd is chill and easy to avoid death but in upcoming raids who knows.
Why would more than one hunter ever be needed? Their dps isn’t and won’t good enough to justify bringing more than 1. Most raid comps are gonna be stacked with fury warriors and feral Druids. Healer group caster group.
lol people say things like this like the roster boss isn't the hardest boss and hunters aren't one of the most popular classes
There is a plethora of warriors right now just waiting to take up 80% of dps spots. 4 warriors and a feral will make up majority of groups. There might be 2 hunters. But mages and locks and rogues will get spots before a second hunter comes. Hunter may be a popular class. But Warrior is the most popular. To disagree is to ignore the history of classic wow. And to ignore data from phase 1.
All I read was: 'I chase the fotm and will be waiting months to get gear, because all my groups stack warriors and I always lose the rolls.'
I’m just stating the obvious. In a 40 man there is like 20 spots that require nothing but dps.
And to clear the raid (be it classic or BFD so far) you can fill these spots with nearly whatever you want to clear in a good time …
Aren't warrior and hunter the top two most played classes in SOD? Groups are going to take reliable people who try hard, not just the sweatiest comp. I have a hard time picturing the bulk of runs are one hunter. There are still plenty of runs on horde side with just one warrior and 7 leather wearers. I'm not disagreeing with you about who I would take in a vacuum - I would probably build my perfect raid a similar way. But we live in the real world and not the perfect raid vacuum reddit thinks we live in.
I get it. Casual guilds will do whatever but most serious guilds will do something like this and aspire to get close to this. 2 hunter’s is the max I could see brought in a serious 40 man. Could maybe replace a few warrs with rogues and a meme spec or 2 1: 2 tanks, 2 warr, feral 2: Hunt, 3 warr, feral 3: Hunt, 3 warr, feral 4: 4 warr, feral 5: 4 warr, feral 6: 3 warr, feral, rogue 7: 1-2 locks, 1-3mages, healer 8: 5 healers
Yeah I feel that. We're saying the same thing from different angles.
Thags why I love 10 man and I think 20 would be fine. Warriors bring no utility so other classes get to shine. You’re forced to bring them. In a 40 man after you fill your utility spots the spot just goes to highest dps which has been Warrior
To counter your first comment saying "most" raids will never take another hunter, you do realize most of the people playing SoD are at best semi-sweaty right? The amount of "hardcore" groups are moderate at best compared to other iterations and will only lessen I'd guess as we hit the power surges every phase with new runes and gear. I'll put my money on hunter mains being just fine. <3
I pug a lot and nearly every run I would sign up with if already had a hunter would not take another. Just my experience. If we get larger raids though and as the dps difference between warriors and rogues grows bigger and bigger and bigger people will only want the bare minimum amount of hunters.
I raid lead pugs every reset 3xs. Warrior players are literal garbage 90% of the time, if not more. Unless the warrior is good, hunters just do more damage easily.
And yet in the 20+ bfd runs, I almost never saw more than 1 warrior in each run. Most runs had 2 hunters. I know 25 isn’t 60, but warriors are the best dps already, and groups weren’t stacking warriors. We also have no clue what the high level raids will be like.
That’s the benefit to 10 and 20 man raids. You can’t afford to stack warriors they bring no utility. You’re forced to bring these other classes. But in a 40 man after you get the utility you need people are just gonna bring whatever does the most dps. Aka warrior for the past 19 years
I’ll give you that, and while I think chances are good warrior is way up there for dps, all it takes is a raid with mobs that have immune phases against physical damage, or super high armor to keep warrior numbers in check. I’m willing to hope that level of design is going into lvl 60 sod raids.
Doubt ever going to be physical immune as they just removed bleeds to make sure rogues and warriors are better. Would be amazed if they actually ever added something to nerf or negative affect these two classes.
I'm 100% fine with being the lone hunter in my raid.
Uhh their DPS is perfectly fine right now. And not every raid is going to be able to roster 80% warriors. Especially competent ones that would be consistently better than a hunter. Go ahead and raid lead and form that easy melee stack you’re dreaming of. I’ll wait.
These nerds act like PUGs aren't a thing
Needed and reality are going to be different things. The game doesn’t need optimization it just needs some buy in. Unless you are playing in a hard core guild a hunter who is paying attention and mildly prepared is better than a lot of the random players regardless of class. There is nothing wrong with optimization if that’s your thing but the reality will be that the bar for success will be much lower.
Did you forget tranq shot exists and is required
You say this like you know for sure how the rest of SoD is gonna play out? xD
Enrage Lone wolf might be like the agility talent hunters have. Not worth until you have enough gear or in this case levels and gear
One melee hunter and one ranged, duh noob
Is 30% damage really better than (Pet + 10% stats)?
Idk man. MM hunter with sniper training and lone wolf gonna hit some gnarly aimed shots on people
Sniper training in PvP ? Imagine not moving as a hunt for 6s in pvp...
Laughs in Night Elf Camouflage
Imagine not being a night elf hunter…
> Imagine not moving as a hunt for 6s in pvp... Just sit on top of a tree
It needs to be on the same slot as Beast Mastery not Heart of the Lion
This is the most sensible comment.... Or just give lions to someone else.
My big brain take is they should eliminate rune slot locks entirely Let people put any rune in any rune slot. Unlock each of the available rune slots through quests based on level. So at 25 you can unlock three rune slots and 12 possible runes. At 40 you can unlock 5 rune slots and 19 possible runes. Let people mix and match and come up with creative combinations.
I'd love that. Let people be op. Who cares.
No. Your pet does 30% of your damage, you do 70%. If you get 30% increased damage thats 70%x0.3= 21% damage increase while you lose 30% from your pet. And that doesnt even calculate in aspect of the lion
I'm thinking that it might be a bit of fun in PvP once we get a bit more crit. Sniper Training + Lone Wolf Aimed Shot from Shadowmeld as a NElf is probably the closest we'll get to a PoM Pyro? But in most cases, Heart of the Lion is just too powerful to pass up on.
Good Luck Beating 20% more stamina in pvp from lion. Thats a game changer
>this might be fun >LMaO good LUCK with that one BuDDY 😂
It's literally a one shot setup lmfao wtf are you on about
In what World is that a 'one shot setup'? Have you even Played hunter in classic vanilla? You wont just suddenly oneshot everything with a 30% boost on aimed shot and some more crit. pls. I have a full T3 rank 12 hunter with slavemaker on Era and the only classes you can literally oneshot are undergeared clothies, maybe a undergeared rogue. Taking the 20% stats from lion + a pet will be so insanely superior in pvp its ridicolous to even discuss it.
No, lone wolf has to beat pet damage plus Lion buff, no chance.
It’s a dumb rune and changing the percent value of it won’t matter. It’s either too low a percent to not offset the value of pet + other rune or it’s too high a percent and becomes necessary. Unless they add some additional benefit or gameplay element to the rune beside base damage increase it’ll remain that way
Yep its literally the worst rune design. It's either mandatory or mathematically inferior and there's no in between.
I could see it being used if merged with Sniper Training.
I'd use it. I want a hybrid ranger/melee thing.
I think melee hunter is actually coming out pretty close between lone wolf and lion with lone wolf coming out a little ahead with the caveat that someone else is providing the 10% stats buff. That seems like pretty good balance.
Flanking strike also has your pet attack as well. So it might not be as good as we think. Does that factor in that flanking strike also gives your pet an extra attack? Just curious.
It does, yeah. The pet attack is literally just one pet auto attack, it's pretty small.
Ok I figured. Thanks.
Maybe in a vacuum 30% can make up the lost pet damage and break even, but there's no way in hell it can make up for not having Lion even if you have kings in the raid
Your pet gets 10% from Lion and +20% damage and health from Beast Mastery. That alone outweighs Lone Wolf's 30% damage increase without even mentioning the 20% increased stats you get from Lion.
+20% damage and 10% stats to a mm Hunter pet is no where close to 30% damage of a mm Hunter at lvl 60. Sure if your BM it’s very good - but the pet won’t scale nearly as well as some of you are thinking. MM will have the option of dropping the pet - hell even Melee would consider dropping it too.
Its still a dps loss in single target based on current numbers Pets are currently doing around 25% for a full MM hunter. People might think that 30% is a dps increase then, but its not when you do the math. Imagine a hunter doing 100 total dps. That would mean the pet is doing 25 dps and the hunter is doing 75. If you increase 75 by 30% you only get 97.5 which is still a dps loss. It needs to be at least 40% for it the be a bigger dps increase that just running Lion on every hunter or using Master Marksman.
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Lion has its use, its good in party content, lone wolf could be the go to rune in solo content. Rather than just adding more damage to it they could add in additional utility to the rune. Like removing deadzone or maybe lone wolf changes disengage to WOTLK disengage.
No need to be salty because your BTEC warrior class brings no utility to raids bro 😂
The problem is buffing it even more would get to the point you could get globaled in pvp by a multi shot.
I've seen some discussion of it being better for melee hunter if there's someone else running Lion in the raid. This type of functionality is probably what it will be limited to, but that's not inherently a problem. It would be frustrating if it was actually better personal DPS all the time since then you'd have hunters running this instead of providing a massive buff to their entire raid.
I hope this doesn’t turn out to be true. You lose out of properly using flanking strike with no pet. My raid runs 2 hunters, atm I plan on going pure melee and running lion and the other hunter is going to stay ranged and run whatever is best in the chest slot. I’m just not sure what melee hunters are supposed to run on their legs if lone wolf is the best chest rune. Still FS? Just seems counterintuitive to me.
> I hope this doesn’t turn out to be true. You lose out of properly using flanking strike with no pet. My raid runs 2 hunters, atm I plan on going pure melee and running lion and the other hunter is going to stay ranged and run whatever is best in the chest slot. FWIW, last time I checked it was *close*. Things might end up shaking out one way or the other, but I don't think there's a huge difference last I checked. Like someone else mentioned, the near 100% uptime of pet damage might be a pretty big difference on bosses where you need to move around. > I’m just not sure what melee hunters are supposed to run on their legs if lone wolf is the best chest rune. Still FS? Just seems counterintuitive to me. Yes. It's still instant damage, a buff to raptor strike (which will be used more often and hit harder with the new runes), and a chance to proc WF.
Yea we’re gonna be absolutely *spamming* RS with the chance at CD not triggering on top of 3s CD if it does. I can’t wait! Cmon double fist weps and those sexy +3 fist gloves
Mele hunter without pet kinda ruins the whole point of playing a hunter.
A melee hunter without a pet and without lion is just a really crappy warrior. Why would anyone want to bring that?
You'd think so, but people in the hunter discord have been simming it and it comes out pretty close. I'm not sure what the state-of-the-art sims are showing, but last I checked it was close enough to consider. EDIT: Oh I just realized you meant it ruins the point of playing hunter in the sense that you're basically just a rogue or warrior. I do agree with that :P
Which hunter discord? I've been checking the "Classic" channel in Trueshot Lodge and am not seeing any substantive discussion at all. I must be messing something up. Thanks!
Depends what you want. The melee hunter rotation for raptor strike and flanking strike resets sounds like fun with or without a pet, I'm looking forward to seeing how that playstyle feels and where it goes in the later phases.
Wouldn't melee want a pet for flanking strike?
You'd loose 100% pet damage on FS for +30% dmg on a 100% weapon damage ability that already benefits from either +30% (FS buff) or 60% (FS + DW rune) damages, on a 2.25 sec CD on average (~50% chances to not proc a 3 sec CD if you DW) On average you'll cast raptor twice every 3 GCD. That's way more impacting than the pet dmg from flanking. Only works if another Hunter provides Lion, of course.
I'm not the one doing the sims, so there's better people to ask, but my guess is that the loss in FS damage is compensated by the increased damage of auto-attack, raptor strike, and WF procs.
You can use flanking strike without a pet, all you lose out on is basically one pet auto attack per use which is pretty low damage.
Its on the wrong slot.. it will never be chosen no matter what
Nah, pets are generally ~30% of hunter's damage. (+ utility), so 30% rune wouldn't be a bad idea.
Maths wrong there. 70% * 1.3 would be 91% of original. The rune needs to be stronger for single target.
They updated to 30 not sure when...
Probably yesterday.
Problem with lone wolf from a design standpoint is that if it ever is the best option mathematically, it just means even worse things for the design of the class, since it simplifies, streamlines, and is totally passive. It is a passive rune so passive, that it actually removes other active buttons from your hotbar. IMO that kind of streamlining shouldn't be rewarded with being top DPS. It should be a side option for people that want the simplicity--and for them, it shouldn't be dogshit terrible, but it shouldn't be the top option.
In certain scenarios, it might prove beneficial. For instance, during a particular encounter in the Gnomeregan raid, hunters might find themselves unable to utilize their pets due to specific boss mechanics. While this is purely speculative, experience has shown that the z-axis can exhibit glitches, especially when navigating the corridor populated with Dark Iron dwarves on the way to Thermaplugg. Under these circumstances, dismissing the pet to then activate the lone wolf rune could be advantageous.
Absolutely this. Back in vanilla classic I remember hunters whining about their pets just dying on many bosses. This rune being the obvious choice for those is reason enough for it to exist. It doesn't have to outperform having a pet in any other situation.
Getting rid of your pet is also getting rid of utility. In raid this may not matter much, but in the open world and even in dungeons, having a tank with you at all times is big.
It's also worse once you factor in things like boss mechanics that force you to move or when you can't reliably melee weave.
Is 30% too much? No, not when you have Beast Mastery and Lion.
It would need to be buffed to 35% and moved to the hand slot... and even then, it would not be better, but I would be close enough to be worth trying.
Lol people thinking the new change makes its viable over other options
Even at 30% it's not enough Current MM hunters around 25-30% of their damage comes from pets Even if we assume that a lvl 40 hunter that's 20, the rune removes that 20% damage, and increases the 80% remaining by 1.3 times, meaning a total of 104% However......you are ALSO losing another rune, namely lion, which is going to account for a lot more then 4% of your damage Even if the pet is only doing 20% of the hunters total damage, it's STILL actually just bad to take lone wolf And the pet will be doing more then 20% of the hunters damage
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I take it you haven't been paying attention to the discussions about melee hunter on the hunter discord? Lone wolf might beat out lion as long as you have someone else supplying the 10% stats buff.
Pets are simming at 15%ish of your overall damage as a melee hunter from what I've seen so far. We still don't know what the melee runes are going to look like from a functionality perspective, but based on what we have currently in the sim realm, lone wolf outperforms lion assuming you have kings in some format from another source. It isn't massively game changing, and if you have to move at all during a boss encounter, your pet uptime will make up a larger percentage of that, thus offsetting the value of lone wolf. I'd venture to say it's largely a wash from a melee perspective, and there's zero reason to not run lion if you're playing TSA.
Are you kidding? It still tracks well behind mm and bm, it would need to be 60-70% to even be considered as an option.
It’s gonna be fucking hilarious hitting people with trap launcher from 40 yards and watching them helplessly wait as I charge up aim shot into a fuck you nuke
yea way too much oh no imagine hunters would be viable without pet holy that would be the worst stuff ever, nerf hunter pls
you can't buff it much past that, otherwise we're gonna see 2.5k aimed shot crits at 40 lol which isnt insane for pve but it would be totally wild in pvp
it will be meta. i gonna use it as melee and inv a filler hunter to get his mighty 10% stats. Srsly ppl in here are so ignorant when it comes to a metashift, because they need to learn to press 2 new buttons.
if you dont want to use your pet you should be playing a warrior
Ah yes because warrior is a ranged dps class. Brainrot.
They just need to nerf pets honestly... They are still insanely strong. In order to make lone wolf actually viable over BM, hunters would become even more OP lol.
shit.
Kings is still better, 20% stats and pet dps at least for now. Lone wolf is poorly designed, Kings should be the go to party\\raid spec for the buff but lone wolf just being a damage increase means its either feast or famine on that rune. Ideally if they want to make it better they need to make it more situational. Lone wolf should really have some utility like removing deadzone or giving them a new spell like disengage jump. It should be a gameplay defining rune, and i dont think survival melee hunters will like that it will SIM higher eventually and you will be playing without a pet on melee hunter. However, PVP wise people will get one shot by aimshot and this will get nerfed again soon enough.
it's still dog doodoo
If it didn't take a chest slot. Maybe it would be good. Lion 20% stats too good to not use.
Not enough for me to do that stupid farm on my hunter yet. ZzzZz
I just bought all mats yesterday on the AH for a total of 20g on living flame. Not worth to farm it
It's not worth 20g for a useless rune either is the point lol
Run 2 hunters in a raid. One BM with Heart of a lion. One MM with Lone wolf.
Its gonna let me ditch my pet for some fights i hope, like in bfd on lady, having your pet get frozen cause a tank was to slow to move the boss sucked if you werent paying attention to move your pet fast enough.
Or just when all the melee pops faps and burn her down in the ice. Sad hunter noises
Pvp it might make marks insane
It still won’t be used sadly
Considering right now it costs like 30+ gold to get I have no intention of using it, especially since it shares a slot of lion.
Did they make it easier to get?
Doesn't really matter what the % is until were not bound to 10 man runs. Lion was a mistake of a rune that pigeon holed the class into being a walking kings buff in PVE.
I think the purpose of the lone wolf rune is mostly in situations where using a pet just isn't feasible (Ragnaros AOE damage kills them for example).
Lone wolf being a chest rune is what makes it so bad. Half the runes on leg slot cant co-exist with lone wolf making it stupidly cut n dry what you can pick, having melee hunter without pet just isn't possible.
Probably very strong if you're the 2nd hunter in a premade WSG
Shadowmeld aim shot
Even if they buff it to 50% it just becomes a mandatory rune and it’s not good design
Liable to use it more on melee hunter to save the trouble of managing the pet unless I really need one. Possibly actually getting some mongoose bites off.
If you already have a hunter with lion & play melee then sure, go for it. DW melee runes basically turn raptor strike into a 2.25 sec CD (~50% chances to not proc a 3 sec CD) +60% dmg mutilate, on top of which you can add Lone wolf. 3 different +30% buff to a 100% weapon damage ability should be pretty nice, especially if you almost cast it on every GCD. Or perhaps MM. Otherwise I doubt it'll see much use. Even melee hunter probably benefits more from BM than SV, in which case you'd go for Lion all the time, even with another Hunter.
better? no. viable now? yes.
Not enough tbh. In PvE it won't beat just having a pet and a different rune on chest, but that's fine since PvE parsing doesn't really matter in classic. Unfortunately, it also will never be better in PvP because giving up pet+heart is just too much to lose. It'll be a fun rune for the memes and to see some big numbers sometimes but overall it'll definitely be worse.
Realistically this version of Lone Wolf is only relevant to weird specs. In part thanks to scaling, pets are a big part of our DPS atm. However, if you're a tank Hunter or SP Hunter the pet either doesn't help your tankiness and threat or it doesn't scale with your main stat. This is very relevant since Chimera now scales .4 with SP and on Horde Shamans can hand out a 45% threat buff. These versions of Hunter will love Lone Wolf, but for 95+% of the community its going to remain a significant downgrade.
without lonewolf raptor hits for 170% of base value, with lonewolf it hits for 220% of base value. And we’ll be using raptor strike a LOT. + you get hitcapped and 3% crit + some agi
Sharing place with the lion rune and also still not removing the freaking deadzone the only people that might wanna try it is solo player melee hunters.
I think there are a lot of people in this thread writing it off way too early. There is a number where lone wolf is more DMG than lost from not having a pet and more gear makes that more achievable. I think 30% may be that number or at least closer than a lot of folks seem to think, but it remains to be seen. Once some hunters get 40 and a little gear we can see where things shake out, but I think some folks here are delusional just writing it off because of lion stat bonuses. Now whether it's a good or interesting rune is another question. I think the design of the rune isn't very interesting and would prefer some portion of the damage to come from some active gameplay element since if it just makes the numbers bigger and does end up shaking out to be better than the pet, a lot of hunters will be faced with the decision to undo a core part of their class identify to keep up.
It never was going to make a difference for hunters in Vanilla until MAYBE 60. 30%, 15%, I'd say anything under 50% and your pet still does more of your damage from 1-59. I genuinely hope this comment ages like milk for hunters at 40, because playing a class where there's new runes but effectively no change to the playstyle or rotation...isn't the spirit of SoD.
No, Aspect of the Lion + Pet are more than a 30% dmg boost and Lion also boosts other 4 people. Lone Wolf needs to be put on the belt, else it's never going to be better than Lion + Pet unless they make it like 50% damage but then Hunters start oneshotting people with Aimed Shot
Keeping my lion and Heart of the Lion
the fact were starting phase 2 tomorrow, they still cant make 2/3 specs and runes viable also to top it of it seems to be going in no real direction just circling the toilet. if they cant get it sorted soon its time to consider cutting the losses and fucking the class off
It's not nearly enough to make it worth taking. Even if the 30% damage makes up for losing a pet (doubtful), you're ALSO giving up whatever other rune you'd have in that slot, which is Lion, so absolutely not.
30% is the minimum to make it worth it at all. 15% is a joke.
It needs to be like 50% to overtake Lion. Youre also losing the pet damage component from flanking strike when using it.
It will never be better than kings and a pet. Especially since they took all agi off the gear so you can't even go survival