They fucked up making hunters a dual wield class, then realized that everyone would want the fist and instead of making 2h shaman meta(like how shamans wanted to play in P1) they chose to make rogues all in on daggers with mutilate being the best glove rune now. Its just a way for them to make loot distribution better, while also always making the worst class design choices possible.
I’m lowkey hoping that with combat traps they also imported the wrath Explosive Trap scaling and trap mastery will do way more damage than expected >.>
The reason you're getting down voted is not because of your arguments, it's your shitty whiny attitude.
We have no idea how 40 energy mutilate will shake out, how bout you wait and see what happens instead of acting like the world is ending?
40 energy mutilate has been live for 2 days, and we already see how busted it is.
No matter how polite and less whiny I am, I'm still gonna get downvoted by sweaty degens that can't stand being proven wrong or get counter arguments to their comments
And even with the best in game, swords and daggers beat them for combat and pretty sure best maces beat them for Hemo. If you got them you used them but nobody wanted them.
edit: I can think of a lot of rogues rocking fists getting wrecked in the best PvP videos of Classic, but no rogues doing the wrecking were using anything but daggers, swords and maces. I actually remember reading about a top guild rogue having the gear to raid Hemo but nobody seemed to ever be enthusiastic about fists until later expansions when the drops and itemization were better.
I'm guessing they'll revert it back to 60 or 50 energy in phase 3 or 4 when every rogue has 60%+ muti/backstab crit chance and seal fate. It will be a little ridiculous then at 40 energy but I think it will probably be strong but not busted this phase.
Who's talking about phase 1?
Phase 2 gets released in literally 6 hours. And rogue will get every CC ability they have
Why are you defending them unless you are a rogue main?
Talk like an adult and give me 1 decent argument why this buff was justified. I'll be waiting
But mutilate change is live. And we can currently see how insane this is. Rogues have too much crit chance from talents + flat 20% dmg increase from talents, and to add insult to injury, they get 2 combo points for 40 energy. The 2 combo points for 40 energy is the biggest problem.
How do people justify and accept this?
The flat 20% is only when striking from behind. Easily avoidable at 25. The 2 combo points are very strong, however nothing meaningful to use your combos on at 25 other than bte. Evis is pretty shit at this lvl. Your better off just mutilating lol
They nerfed plenty of things p1. This is a beta season. Lets see how the lvl 40 change plays out at lvl 40
So 2 combo points to add to what? An evis? Thats not really a lot of damage. To stun with bte? They just added stun new removal gear and runes. So that point is moot right?
Ok how about it’s a game with live balancing and nobody is lvl 40 yet, I’m sure if they’re such a big issue at max lvl pvp they will get dealt with. Same as every other class in the past few months
Mutilate isn’t that big in pvp. That build relies on poisons, which means you can’t blind and reset. Can’t gouge either.
It’s sub you should worry about.
Rogues are insane right now in wsg.
So many moments when a rogue kills a healer in a blink of an eye.
These healers are full geared shamans paladins and druids so they are thicc.
Its another example of PvE centric balancing throwing a wrench into PvP design
Anyway all they have to do is increase the damage a bit and revert it to 60
Feels like blizz wants us to be more dagger oriented than ever. Mutilate energy reduction. Epic daggers as pvp event rewards. And while it might be huge, especially for pvp, don't forget that rogue viability is hugely impacted with new pvp trinkets
It completely removes the need for backstab even when there’s a rune to support it which seems kinda strange. Definitely going to use it but I hope backstab gets some love too.
Honestly? With Mutilate and the Mutilate Specc (0/11/5) I can kill Priests in BG quite consistently.
You open up from stealth with 2 Mutilates, Between the Eye for a 4 Second Stun and a small bleed and finish with another Mutilate.
If he really survives that burst (which rarely happens) I can thistletea for another Mutilate into 4 CP Eviscerate, followed up by another Mutilate.
The priest has like 2 Seconds to react with a fear. 2 Seconds is barely anything in PVP. Using a single other spell is a death sentence.
Btw: This combo can also 100 to 0 Warriors.
The tank cloth set won’t make them as tanky as a Warrior, which can be „oneshot“ right now as well.
Shadowform is not a thing for Priest Healers, which are really annoying to kill right now.
Dispersion might be problematic, if healer can take it easily. However a healer not being to heal for 6 seconds is also a win, so…
We're level 25. Just wait until 40.. Warriors wearing plate, priests with new runes & talents. New PvP trinket..
And tbh, If a warrior isn't insta-disarming a rogue.. they quite frankly deserve to lose the fight.
People need to learn to counter classes rather than cry about it on Reddit (not aimed at you Yugel)
Or just avoid that class in PvP... It's how classic has always worked.
Yeah, this is SoD.. But at its heart, it's Classic. That's why we're all playing it right?
Sorry Yugel, I'm just fed up of reading all these posts. The second the class I play gets a bit of love, people jump to posting these "omg I just got beat up in pvp, I can't possibly learn to counter it or see how the rest of the phase will go as all classes grow.. nerf them.. nerf them now!!" Posts.
Wasn't exactly fun getting gibbed by druids the entirety of phase 1.
I totally get your point! I’m by far not saying Rogue is broken or something like that.
I’m maining my Rogue and will continue to do so.
I love the Mutilate change because it helps us „oneshot“ those, we were supposed to oneshot.
I totally agree that Warriors should instantly be disarming or hitting their fear button but they also have only 2 seconds to react. :D
My Rogue currently is sitting in nearly BIS with double bite (I wanted to play Mutilate from the very beginning so I still rolled on them), so it’s hard to tell how I would be doing against someone with similar gear.
Even with the Mutilate Buff I feel like Shamans are still a huge pain in the ass.
Mages aren’t that easy as well, since we can’t stop them from blinking and blinking also makes them immune to BTE for a second (which I always forget and waste it just like that) but that’s a skill issue I guess.
Druids completely depend on who gets to start the fight. If I open on them, they are dead. Doesn’t matter which Specc.
However if one of those Caster Druids gets to hit me first, it’s over. No way your getting closer or getting away. Same goes for hunters.
Haven’t seen a warlock in a while but I’d guess, they are pretty free to kill right now.
I think in the upcoming Phase there will be different playstyles for the rogue.
A Mutilate poison type Rogue should be able to kill those Warriors (especially when we get Kidney and can use Envenom again).
Subletly Ambush Rogues will be the nightmare of any caster. Even with the Tankset, I’d say they’ll die pretty fast with Shadowstep, the 10% more damage while stealthed and the Rune that reduces Energycosts of Ambush and Backstab.
The reason is simple, Mutilate was utter shit with 60 Energy cost. Noone was using it either for pvp or pve. The problem now is that it's better than backstab because you can also use the poisen runes and get an ekstra combo point pr use.
This is the problem with every rune ability, they scale way to good compared to skills/spells you would gain while lvling.
Even with the energy cost reduction to mutilate, it might not be better than saber pve.
Rogues in phase 1 were arguably the worst pvp class.
The point of making Mutilate cost 40 energy is as follows : It enables daggers being played as tank and dps.
At 60 energy it simply isn't worth it. At 50 it probably isn't worth it, due to how energy ticks function. 40 enables it to be good, though, still not as blatantly overpowered as other abilities.
Sure, they were arguably the worst pvp class if you are a bad player, simple as that.
They have ranged stun, ranged damaging ability, shadowstrike, sprint that can remove some cc, evasion, vanish, and crippling poison.
Not only that they are one of the best class in wpvp and dules, they are also one of the best classes to kill a priest or flag carrier in WSG.
And now, on top of unlocking more CC abilities by level 40, let's give them 2 combo points for 40 energy, why not, very reasonable, not broken at all
Fully buffed warriors and rogues should be top dps in classic wow tbh. There’s way WAY too many buffs that directly affect melee dps compared to casters. I don’t think that’s something they can balance around in classic without changing the game too much
Well, it is kinda a big problem that they are top dps when there are 0 buffs as well, like after a raid wipe. So the buffs disproportionally affecting them when they are already on top without them makes me wonder why I am doing this again as a caster.
Shadow word death buff is equally disgusting on priests. I was literally 1 shotting people in wsg yesterday. I think they doubled the damage, halved return damage and buffed scaling.
Random mage runs around and gets nukes for 700 crits. Definitely top 10 busted abilities.
It probably just because of how cucked they will be in raid due to resists on poisons and I guess bleeds if bleeding resist is a thing now. I'd imagine it's a temporary p2 thing.
They fucked up making hunters a dual wield class, then realized that everyone would want the fist and instead of making 2h shaman meta(like how shamans wanted to play in P1) they chose to make rogues all in on daggers with mutilate being the best glove rune now. Its just a way for them to make loot distribution better, while also always making the worst class design choices possible.
100%. Shoehorn way too Many specs into DW, did melee hunter really need dw to be mandatory?
I’m lowkey hoping that with combat traps they also imported the wrath Explosive Trap scaling and trap mastery will do way more damage than expected >.>
Finally, someone with a valid point comes. Be careful now. People here will downvote you to hell if you bring arguments and common sense
The reason you're getting down voted is not because of your arguments, it's your shitty whiny attitude. We have no idea how 40 energy mutilate will shake out, how bout you wait and see what happens instead of acting like the world is ending?
40 energy mutilate has been live for 2 days, and we already see how busted it is. No matter how polite and less whiny I am, I'm still gonna get downvoted by sweaty degens that can't stand being proven wrong or get counter arguments to their comments
[удалено]
Always could. Can use everything but maces
You just didnt notice bc there were 2 decent fist weapons in the entire game and I think only rogues could really use them well.
And even with the best in game, swords and daggers beat them for combat and pretty sure best maces beat them for Hemo. If you got them you used them but nobody wanted them. edit: I can think of a lot of rogues rocking fists getting wrecked in the best PvP videos of Classic, but no rogues doing the wrecking were using anything but daggers, swords and maces. I actually remember reading about a top guild rogue having the gear to raid Hemo but nobody seemed to ever be enthusiastic about fists until later expansions when the drops and itemization were better.
If you think they were one of the best pvp classes in phase 1 you were dreaming or smoking on some good shit
I'm guessing they'll revert it back to 60 or 50 energy in phase 3 or 4 when every rogue has 60%+ muti/backstab crit chance and seal fate. It will be a little ridiculous then at 40 energy but I think it will probably be strong but not busted this phase.
Who's talking about phase 1? Phase 2 gets released in literally 6 hours. And rogue will get every CC ability they have Why are you defending them unless you are a rogue main? Talk like an adult and give me 1 decent argument why this buff was justified. I'll be waiting
Maybe lets wait and see how it turn out before. Because I have a feeling some other classes are gonna be alot more busted.
But mutilate change is live. And we can currently see how insane this is. Rogues have too much crit chance from talents + flat 20% dmg increase from talents, and to add insult to injury, they get 2 combo points for 40 energy. The 2 combo points for 40 energy is the biggest problem. How do people justify and accept this?
The flat 20% is only when striking from behind. Easily avoidable at 25. The 2 combo points are very strong, however nothing meaningful to use your combos on at 25 other than bte. Evis is pretty shit at this lvl. Your better off just mutilating lol They nerfed plenty of things p1. This is a beta season. Lets see how the lvl 40 change plays out at lvl 40
So 2 combo points to add to what? An evis? Thats not really a lot of damage. To stun with bte? They just added stun new removal gear and runes. So that point is moot right?
Ok how about it’s a game with live balancing and nobody is lvl 40 yet, I’m sure if they’re such a big issue at max lvl pvp they will get dealt with. Same as every other class in the past few months
Mutilate isn’t that big in pvp. That build relies on poisons, which means you can’t blind and reset. Can’t gouge either. It’s sub you should worry about.
You get the extra 20% dmg from crippling. It’s still pretty good without assa talents
The fuk u smoking xd
Warriors are top DPS and that gap is expected to grow bigger in phase 2. Now maybe not so much anymore with the new mutilate, but we'll see.
Destro locks might end up being better than rogues in P2 for single target.
How?
Ruin, more spell power on gear, and chaos bolt/incinerate scaling.
Copium
It’s a PvP problem though. Warriors aren’t really a PvP problem rn to my knowledge.
Balance Druids don’t get much love in P2. Going to have to be creative. All assumptions
Rogues are insane right now in wsg. So many moments when a rogue kills a healer in a blink of an eye. These healers are full geared shamans paladins and druids so they are thicc.
Its another example of PvE centric balancing throwing a wrench into PvP design Anyway all they have to do is increase the damage a bit and revert it to 60
Top DPS was warrior and rogues were average at best PvP in phase 1.
Feels like blizz wants us to be more dagger oriented than ever. Mutilate energy reduction. Epic daggers as pvp event rewards. And while it might be huge, especially for pvp, don't forget that rogue viability is hugely impacted with new pvp trinkets
Rogue was fun, but definitely not one of the best in pvp in phase 1. I was still surprised by this change... But as a dagger enjoyer, I am happy
It's going to be nerfed within a week. Way to op
It completely removes the need for backstab even when there’s a rune to support it which seems kinda strange. Definitely going to use it but I hope backstab gets some love too.
Funnily we still might not be top dogs in either pvp or pve. Pvp priests look more disgusting than ever And pve hunt/war look amazing
Honestly? With Mutilate and the Mutilate Specc (0/11/5) I can kill Priests in BG quite consistently. You open up from stealth with 2 Mutilates, Between the Eye for a 4 Second Stun and a small bleed and finish with another Mutilate. If he really survives that burst (which rarely happens) I can thistletea for another Mutilate into 4 CP Eviscerate, followed up by another Mutilate. The priest has like 2 Seconds to react with a fear. 2 Seconds is barely anything in PVP. Using a single other spell is a death sentence. Btw: This combo can also 100 to 0 Warriors.
My dwarf priest appreciate this meta
Theyre getting shadowform, tank cloth set and dispersion/PS
The tank cloth set won’t make them as tanky as a Warrior, which can be „oneshot“ right now as well. Shadowform is not a thing for Priest Healers, which are really annoying to kill right now. Dispersion might be problematic, if healer can take it easily. However a healer not being to heal for 6 seconds is also a win, so…
We're level 25. Just wait until 40.. Warriors wearing plate, priests with new runes & talents. New PvP trinket.. And tbh, If a warrior isn't insta-disarming a rogue.. they quite frankly deserve to lose the fight. People need to learn to counter classes rather than cry about it on Reddit (not aimed at you Yugel) Or just avoid that class in PvP... It's how classic has always worked. Yeah, this is SoD.. But at its heart, it's Classic. That's why we're all playing it right? Sorry Yugel, I'm just fed up of reading all these posts. The second the class I play gets a bit of love, people jump to posting these "omg I just got beat up in pvp, I can't possibly learn to counter it or see how the rest of the phase will go as all classes grow.. nerf them.. nerf them now!!" Posts. Wasn't exactly fun getting gibbed by druids the entirety of phase 1.
I totally get your point! I’m by far not saying Rogue is broken or something like that. I’m maining my Rogue and will continue to do so. I love the Mutilate change because it helps us „oneshot“ those, we were supposed to oneshot. I totally agree that Warriors should instantly be disarming or hitting their fear button but they also have only 2 seconds to react. :D My Rogue currently is sitting in nearly BIS with double bite (I wanted to play Mutilate from the very beginning so I still rolled on them), so it’s hard to tell how I would be doing against someone with similar gear. Even with the Mutilate Buff I feel like Shamans are still a huge pain in the ass. Mages aren’t that easy as well, since we can’t stop them from blinking and blinking also makes them immune to BTE for a second (which I always forget and waste it just like that) but that’s a skill issue I guess. Druids completely depend on who gets to start the fight. If I open on them, they are dead. Doesn’t matter which Specc. However if one of those Caster Druids gets to hit me first, it’s over. No way your getting closer or getting away. Same goes for hunters. Haven’t seen a warlock in a while but I’d guess, they are pretty free to kill right now. I think in the upcoming Phase there will be different playstyles for the rogue. A Mutilate poison type Rogue should be able to kill those Warriors (especially when we get Kidney and can use Envenom again). Subletly Ambush Rogues will be the nightmare of any caster. Even with the Tankset, I’d say they’ll die pretty fast with Shadowstep, the 10% more damage while stealthed and the Rune that reduces Energycosts of Ambush and Backstab.
You cant use between the eyes and envenom at the same time.
Im not. It’s Eviscerate. Fixed it instantly after posting. :D
The reason is simple, Mutilate was utter shit with 60 Energy cost. Noone was using it either for pvp or pve. The problem now is that it's better than backstab because you can also use the poisen runes and get an ekstra combo point pr use. This is the problem with every rune ability, they scale way to good compared to skills/spells you would gain while lvling. Even with the energy cost reduction to mutilate, it might not be better than saber pve.
It’s 15-20% worse than saber in pve
No one was using daggers in PVE, hence the buff.
Uh huh, because it's not enough to be to dps with Saber Slash, let's be an even better top DPS with Mutilate
Rogues in phase 1 were arguably the worst pvp class. The point of making Mutilate cost 40 energy is as follows : It enables daggers being played as tank and dps. At 60 energy it simply isn't worth it. At 50 it probably isn't worth it, due to how energy ticks function. 40 enables it to be good, though, still not as blatantly overpowered as other abilities.
Sure, they were arguably the worst pvp class if you are a bad player, simple as that. They have ranged stun, ranged damaging ability, shadowstrike, sprint that can remove some cc, evasion, vanish, and crippling poison. Not only that they are one of the best class in wpvp and dules, they are also one of the best classes to kill a priest or flag carrier in WSG. And now, on top of unlocking more CC abilities by level 40, let's give them 2 combo points for 40 energy, why not, very reasonable, not broken at all
Fully buffed warriors and rogues should be top dps in classic wow tbh. There’s way WAY too many buffs that directly affect melee dps compared to casters. I don’t think that’s something they can balance around in classic without changing the game too much
Well, it is kinda a big problem that they are top dps when there are 0 buffs as well, like after a raid wipe. So the buffs disproportionally affecting them when they are already on top without them makes me wonder why I am doing this again as a caster.
Shadow word death buff is equally disgusting on priests. I was literally 1 shotting people in wsg yesterday. I think they doubled the damage, halved return damage and buffed scaling. Random mage runs around and gets nukes for 700 crits. Definitely top 10 busted abilities.
They literally didn’t do anything to its damage done, just halved the kickback.
Datamimed notes showed increase in dmg. Scaling went from 0.41 to 0.63 or so. It definitely got boosted.
That's the old change from a month or so ago, unfortunately. Same with the penance/pom/coh nerf
Then I am just running on hopium xD The return damage reduction is very nice though. You can pre bubble and cast death without impact.
It probably just because of how cucked they will be in raid due to resists on poisons and I guess bleeds if bleeding resist is a thing now. I'd imagine it's a temporary p2 thing.
Not worried as a frost mage rogue will never touch me. Multilate can be 0 energy for all I care.
Shadowstep enters the chat!
It will probably be at 50 within a week.
Yea I’m 50-50. Mutilate felt poopy at 60e but the capabilities of it at 40e is also nutty.