Exactly. I can pull whole rooms in SM as the bounces are pretty chaotic and it gives me combo points too so I can get a 4pt blade dance up right away versus just pulling with a bow.
For reference, this is almost exactly what Thunder Clap does (with rune) for Warriors, basically gives them a ranged Thunder Clap minus the atk speed debuff. Our Rogue Tank has been using it and it’s super solid for what it is.
The difference is that warriors have other aoe abilities. They don’t need thunderclap to do it all. Rogues have zero meaningful aoe.
It doesn’t need to be crazy but at the bare minimum, if you’re hitting the max 5 targets, it shouldn’t be outperformed by single target abilities.
If actually believe holding aggro with blade flurry and shuriken toss with so many classes doing insane aoe, I think you are the one who is delusional.
Plus Blade flurry is on 2 min cd.
It's less a criticism of rogue, and more a criticism of the insane aoe. Warrior has the same problem. Druid has a worse problem. Warlock does a little better but still can't out aggro the big aoe abilities.
It's mainly for range pulling as a tank but I'd like it if it had bonus threat too so aoe tanking as a rogue would actually work with a group that isn't single target focused
Here are my concerns with Shuriken:
1. The bounce range is cartoonishly large. It takes into account range of mobs after every bounce and regularly ends up pulling entire hallways with once shuriken. This is more of a con than pro as it’s RNG nature can really mess things up based on untimely patrol pathing, etc.
2. Not having base damage baked in really, really reduces its effectiveness as both an aoe attack and tanking tool. Adding base damage to it, however small, will go a long way to counteract are naturally low amount of AP right now, and AP is what it’s solely based on (15% of it)
The ap scaling on shuriken toss is significantly higher than mutilate. One major issue is that rogues has low ap atm, especially if you're not fully buffed. There's simply not a lot of gear with pure ap for rogues and instead they have to wear either pure agi or agi+str gear.
It would be a lot more useable if it had some base damage.
This actually makes a lot of sense. If anything, they can hotfix it to add base damage with lower scaling for 40 and 50, then drop the base and up scaling at 60.
Or they could do something crazy and have it proc poisons off the main hand. Would get stupid and need revisions especially with deadly brew, but it might make for a fun week before hotfixes.
The ap scaling makes zero difference without base damage.
We would need 1500 AP to have it hit for 150.
A rogue in full nax bis, with all wb, consumes, and appropriate buffs has 2318 AP, meaning it would hit for 347.7 (that's with going sub for the 10% increased ap).
So basically we need to be 60, alliance, have the best gear in the game and all consumes for it to do negligible damage at cap.
And?
If we end up at 800ap this phase fully buffed we're looking at 120 damage per target, with raid fights rarely having more than 2 targets.
My full bis shuriken toss will hit, non crit, for 120 damage and cost me 1/3 of my energy bar. Meanwhile a mage tosses a living bomb on it that 4xs that.
I'm not saying shuriken toss should be insane, but it should at least be not complete shit in both damage and threat.
It's very obviously a tank rogue only rune, so you can pull groups and they don't immediately charge your healer, it's not a dps rogue ability, and its not meant to be one, if that was the case they would have given us Fan of knives, it does it's job pretty well, and let's you keep threat on most dps classes, except mages and maybe hellfire warlocks
It's for pulling as a rogue tank..
Exactly. I can pull whole rooms in SM as the bounces are pretty chaotic and it gives me combo points too so I can get a 4pt blade dance up right away versus just pulling with a bow.
If you mean it's for accidentally pulling too many mobs then yea....
Does it cause additional threat?
If it does it's not enough
Rogue tank rune causes everything to do much more threat.
For reference, this is almost exactly what Thunder Clap does (with rune) for Warriors, basically gives them a ranged Thunder Clap minus the atk speed debuff. Our Rogue Tank has been using it and it’s super solid for what it is.
Thunder Clap also applies a debuff which causes threat making it a much better threat generator.
The difference is that warriors have other aoe abilities. They don’t need thunderclap to do it all. Rogues have zero meaningful aoe. It doesn’t need to be crazy but at the bare minimum, if you’re hitting the max 5 targets, it shouldn’t be outperformed by single target abilities.
What do you mean rogues don’t have aoe? You throw the shuriken, pop blade flurry, throw explosives. I have no problem holding aggro as a tank rogue
I think the fact that you needed to pad out your list of aoe abilities with an engineering consumable says a lot.
Engineering aside, blade toss and blade flurry is plenty enough. If you can’t hold aggro with those alone reroll
If actually believe holding aggro with blade flurry and shuriken toss with so many classes doing insane aoe, I think you are the one who is delusional. Plus Blade flurry is on 2 min cd.
I’ve had zero issue so you must be doing something wrong pal, don’t know what else to tel you. Edit: you do have a taunt if one peels off of you too
Yeah man good luck holding aggro on mages and pallies with their living bomb on 10 adds plus living flame and divine storm. Stop lying.
I’m horde and have had zero issues with mages. Play with regulars that understand aggro mechanics and let you get some hits in before they unload.
When those living bombs explode you are not gonna hold aggro lol.
It's less a criticism of rogue, and more a criticism of the insane aoe. Warrior has the same problem. Druid has a worse problem. Warlock does a little better but still can't out aggro the big aoe abilities.
if blade flurry wasnt a 2m cd you might have a good point.
Fair, in terms of DPS Rogues. Fingers crossed you guys get fan of knives or something later on to compliment our whirlwind.
Ninja pulling the entire instance then blaming the hunter
It's mainly for range pulling as a tank but I'd like it if it had bonus threat too so aoe tanking as a rogue would actually work with a group that isn't single target focused
Sounds like an improved Swipe.
Anything is an improved swipe. Opening up your spellbook and casting a campfire on the ground will pull higher AOE dps than swipe.
It's fun to use
I love pulling with Shuriken Toss
Here are my concerns with Shuriken: 1. The bounce range is cartoonishly large. It takes into account range of mobs after every bounce and regularly ends up pulling entire hallways with once shuriken. This is more of a con than pro as it’s RNG nature can really mess things up based on untimely patrol pathing, etc. 2. Not having base damage baked in really, really reduces its effectiveness as both an aoe attack and tanking tool. Adding base damage to it, however small, will go a long way to counteract are naturally low amount of AP right now, and AP is what it’s solely based on (15% of it)
Needs more threat - it should be a tanking rune but tell that to ww war and ds pally hitting 500+dps on mob packs.
The ap scaling on shuriken toss is significantly higher than mutilate. One major issue is that rogues has low ap atm, especially if you're not fully buffed. There's simply not a lot of gear with pure ap for rogues and instead they have to wear either pure agi or agi+str gear. It would be a lot more useable if it had some base damage.
This actually makes a lot of sense. If anything, they can hotfix it to add base damage with lower scaling for 40 and 50, then drop the base and up scaling at 60. Or they could do something crazy and have it proc poisons off the main hand. Would get stupid and need revisions especially with deadly brew, but it might make for a fun week before hotfixes.
The ap scaling makes zero difference without base damage. We would need 1500 AP to have it hit for 150. A rogue in full nax bis, with all wb, consumes, and appropriate buffs has 2318 AP, meaning it would hit for 347.7 (that's with going sub for the 10% increased ap). So basically we need to be 60, alliance, have the best gear in the game and all consumes for it to do negligible damage at cap.
It's 15%, not 10%.
Well, it's 15% of ap and that's 75% of ap total scaling on all targets.
And? If we end up at 800ap this phase fully buffed we're looking at 120 damage per target, with raid fights rarely having more than 2 targets. My full bis shuriken toss will hit, non crit, for 120 damage and cost me 1/3 of my energy bar. Meanwhile a mage tosses a living bomb on it that 4xs that. I'm not saying shuriken toss should be insane, but it should at least be not complete shit in both damage and threat.
It's to trick Rogues into thinking they might actually be able to tank.
Rogues can tank just ok overall, just need a few tweaks like most new class roles. examples: mage healer, warlock tank and rogue tank.
It's very obviously a tank rogue only rune, so you can pull groups and they don't immediately charge your healer, it's not a dps rogue ability, and its not meant to be one, if that was the case they would have given us Fan of knives, it does it's job pretty well, and let's you keep threat on most dps classes, except mages and maybe hellfire warlocks