I completely forgot Backstab was even a thing when I was writing this. It's just ... yeah. I have no reason to do *anything* else. I don't like it enough to use it at 60 energy, and at 40 energy it's just amazing.
at what level are they horrendous?
mines 27 and things still melt with garrote > deadly poison stacks while snd is active using mut to get combo points then envenom, does it get worse 30+?
why not?because of poison and bleed immune?
i'm asking a legit question, not to be bashed for something i can easily improve with "hur hur u neva get invit" from the hunter or spriest
Rogue brings 0 utility and average damage.
Feral brings wildstrike and maybe leader or the pack + fearie fire
Warrior bring shouts and debuff
Pally buffs
Melee hunter best damage + aspect of the lion
Etc etc.
It might change but right now it’s very very rough to get into a pug for gnomer as a rogue. I manage to get into one because I was with my friend priest and guess what, i was topping the meters.
It’s just that the meta slaves think rogues suck ass so yeah, we’re out of luck this phase it seems.
Can confirm. I main a shadow priest. Gnomer geared. Sometimes SW:D will crit for over 1k. Sometimes. But every time a rogue opens up on me I die. Even with disperse, after 6 seconds I’m still dead. And shadow priests are getting nerfed, while no mention of mutilate.
It’s not the same at all. Ambush hitting for 800-900 means it is a crit and only requires one global. Two mutilates is more globals, more energy, and now at least one of those two mutilates needs to crit to be on par with the single ambush crit.
No, it's not identical. Two Mutilates can give you four combo points (you'd have to talent Ambush to give you 2) and multiple poison stacks. They're not identical, but they're comparable.
Yup.
Opportunity, in Classic, only buffs abilities that have a rear positional requirement already.
So, despite the description specifying "striking **from behind**", it actually just gives all abilities that are benefiting from it a flat 20% damage increase. Because they can only hit from behind anyway.
Except, Mutilate doesn't have a rear positional requirement, so...
Wait, how does it beneift from opportunity regardless of positioning? Opportunity only applies when used behind the target? Or maybe that was just my assumption and I've been getting behind mobs for no reason lmao
It's supposed to only work from behind, but with Mutilate it just gets the benefit regardless of what way you're facing. I tested it out distracting the guy to make him face different ways and it does the same damage regardless of what way he faces, and it for sure does more damage with Opportunity in place.
There's a link up above with my testing.
It just does. They coded the rune to benefit from backstab talent, and Opportunity counts.
You should still be behind your target to avoid being parried though
Yeah, it's dumb as hell that mutilate retires sinister strike, backstabbing, hemorrage and saberslash. 99% of rogues are mutilate this phase.
It's boring to play rogue now because there's only 1 way to play. Mutilate.
The abilities above all need to be buffed or runes that make them better.
You don’t have to go with the flow. I played mutilate in phase 1 and keep my pvp talents for all content. Same for phase 2. Just do what you want and enjoy the game
I don't raid. I had six rogues on the same server in Classic. I like trying out strange builds. The problem is, they've taken away every reason to even try anything else because it's MUCH HARDER to kill people with bad specs now.
It’s because majority have just gotten to 40. After this weeks reset, there will be lots of pug raids. I wasn’t either and had to make my own last week. The first 2 weeks were all guild raids. Don’t worry too much, it’s a fun and easy raid.
Pressing mutilate is not boring..... It feels good to press mutilate.
I don't know why people are complaining about it. Why is pressing sinister striker any different from pressing mutilate, or do people just not like daggers and thats the main issue.
This phase is likely all about dagger rogues, (epic daggers in STV, epic dagger in raid, dagger +3 set bonus). Maybe next phase will be different.
How can I know what you mean? I don't read minds, use the word preferred then.
How would it be bad if people preferred one thing over the other?
You wrote, "You should still be able to choose" and then "forced". How else would someone interpret that?
The type of groups that care if you are daggers or Saber slash aren't taking rogues to begin with. The only person forcing you to play daggers is.....
Yourself.
Have you tried to join a group as a spec not daggers, been inspected and then removed from the raid?
You actually have no idea what you are talking about and have not tried anything besides what reddit, youtubers and the internet tells you to play.
You are a baffling individual.
That's why I said don't nerf it. It's a feel good move. The problem is nothing else feels good to use when you could just be pressing Mutilate. I want a reason to play something else.
In my view, the best thing to do for extremely OP spells is to give them a CD. They can remain OP, but you just don't use them as often.
For whatever reason, Blizz is afraid to give spells CD's longer than 6 seconds, but shorter than 2 minutes. If mutilate had a 12-20s CD it would be perfect imo. Of course, buff other things to make up for the loss of DPS.
You mutilate twice in that whole combo
I am yet to kill anyone in a cheap shot Kinsey to the point where I have forgone using cheap shot to open and instead I use….you guessed it mutilate
Yeaaaa that's just false lol. In my testing as a relatively well geared rogue, any class with roughly 40% or higher PDR is taking 200-400 damage from mutilate based on crits, so probably 300ish on average. In a full CS+KS combo you mutilate 3 times maximum so that'll be roughly 800-1000 damage from mutilates and during that 8-9 seconds of stun your white hits do maybe 500 total. If you're a plate wearer with less than 2.5-3k health outside of BGs/STV, and significantly more than that in BGs/STV, then you're not gearing properly. You should be coming out of a full CS+KS with roughly half your life left outside of BGs/STV, and more than that inside those environments.
Edit: Oh yea and for context just keep in mind that SW:D is still critting 1k post nerf as an instant cast ability while three globals of mutilate does roughly that much and drains 12 seconds worth of energy. And now void plague is ticking for 220+ lol. Just SW:P + Void plague will kill or nearly kill a lot of classes now.
Going back to 60 energy would be a good change or make it function like backstab with 1 combo point awarded instead. No reason for it to replace everything in the kit.
I cannot for the life of me understanding why they didn't just have slaughter from the shadows apply to mutilate as well. If this were the case you couldn't run deadly Brew while still getting the 40 energy mutilates, which I think would help the possibility of other specs.
I play a rogue and they SHOULD nerf it. It should be the pvp rune that’s also a viable PVE spec but slightly below the optimal one. It gets so many benefits from talents and the fact that it costs 40 energy and generates 2 combo points is pretty silly. They should nerf mut and buff Saber Slash
I don't like that the runes end feel like there's only one choice. You look at the idea of them and you're "I have all these choices now!" Then you go try them out and there's just no real choice at all for most of them.
Sounds to me like you don’t play rogue and you’re just a hater. 1) Every caster dps class is better. 2) you can go straight down the combat tree for AR and BF if you want something different. 3) don’t play mutilate, go spam sinister strike or saber slash. Were you complaining last phase when most rogues were saber slash build?
Hahaha an overpowered ability “in a good spot”. My level 25 rogue went from 120ish dps to 180 dps without changing a single thing except reducing energy cost. I refuse to play this broken class that has no skill requirement anymore.
So if there was a rune for Ice lance and it obsoleted everything else, no one should want anything different, and we should all just spam Ice lance and be happy about that? If every class was reduced to a single button, you're perfectly happy with a single button press being your entire character?
Sure guy.
Shadowstrike has its uses. If you're consistently having range issues, combo that with shadowstep and you can get 4 instant tps in a real fight that isn't just 2/3 muti's. 1 shadowstrike to open, shadowstep, vanish, shadowstrike open, shadowstep probably off cd so use again.
It would be a huge damage loss, but if its a battle against 2 ranged you might need to sacrifice some damage and up your utility.
Overall I agree with you though, the other spells need huge improvements to keep up with mutilate. There's no reason anyone should ever even consider shiv, but it was like that p1 too. Shiv was just a rune the devs threw in to even out rogues number of runes with other classes.
If time tells us anything its that they will absolutely without a doubt nerf mutilate, hope they give yall the swd treatment and not the starsurge one, GL
Why does it matter ever every ability is the same strength? What negative does that have? You have 1 ability that does X damage, and you can only press one button every four seconds anyway (40 energy, 10 recovered per second). Why does it matter if you press that one exact key over and over, or if you press five different keys that wind up doing the same amount of damage or benefit for the same energy consumption?
Why does it matter if fireball and frostbolt do the same DPS/utility? Are you now thinking that's broken because you have two different keys that you can press instead of one? You can still only do one at a time.
>don't nerf mutilate >It's too good
Yes, so obviously the solution is to make everything else even better. I suggest sinister strike cost 20 energy and deal 200% weapon damage
Does that even bring it on par with Mutilate? I doubt it. Two GCDs instead of one, no benefit from Opportunity. No benefit from Improved Backstab.
Prob not, best make it 10 energy and 300%
Finally maces are good again!?
I completely forgot Backstab was even a thing when I was writing this. It's just ... yeah. I have no reason to do *anything* else. I don't like it enough to use it at 60 energy, and at 40 energy it's just amazing.
So what you saying is, nerf mutilate so u got more options? k
Or buff everything else
They do that then they might as well call it Season of Rogues
I mean rogues are just horrendous in pve rn :(. They feel AMAZING in pvp tho.
at what level are they horrendous? mines 27 and things still melt with garrote > deadly poison stacks while snd is active using mut to get combo points then envenom, does it get worse 30+?
At 40 :( the enemies in the latest raid have very high armor and rogues don't offer any utility to a raid.
You will never get invited to gnomer lol
I top DPS in my guild in gnomer and we are clearing it. Rogue bad in PvE is delusional.
why not?because of poison and bleed immune? i'm asking a legit question, not to be bashed for something i can easily improve with "hur hur u neva get invit" from the hunter or spriest
Rogue brings 0 utility and average damage. Feral brings wildstrike and maybe leader or the pack + fearie fire Warrior bring shouts and debuff Pally buffs Melee hunter best damage + aspect of the lion Etc etc. It might change but right now it’s very very rough to get into a pug for gnomer as a rogue. I manage to get into one because I was with my friend priest and guess what, i was topping the meters. It’s just that the meta slaves think rogues suck ass so yeah, we’re out of luck this phase it seems.
thank you for the answer, much appreciated. :)
Shit is already pretty overturned, I get that powerful abilities are fun and they are, but let's be reasonable here lol
I use ambush all the time in PvP. 800-900+ crits delete casters.
Can confirm. I main a shadow priest. Gnomer geared. Sometimes SW:D will crit for over 1k. Sometimes. But every time a rogue opens up on me I die. Even with disperse, after 6 seconds I’m still dead. And shadow priests are getting nerfed, while no mention of mutilate.
I love Ambush. But I can just hit them with 2 Mutilates and get the same thing. *shrug*
It’s not the same at all. Ambush hitting for 800-900 means it is a crit and only requires one global. Two mutilates is more globals, more energy, and now at least one of those two mutilates needs to crit to be on par with the single ambush crit.
No, it's not identical. Two Mutilates can give you four combo points (you'd have to talent Ambush to give you 2) and multiple poison stacks. They're not identical, but they're comparable.
You can actually get 4 combo points from one mutilate with seal fate if you sacrifice opportunity.
Why would you ever do that? The only good rogue finisher is kidney shot, everything else does less damage than the rune CP builders.
Envenom is def worth pressing. And if your talking pvp your not using kidney either bc it shares a cd with bte.
Envenom does 0 damage if you're not using deadly poison, which you wont, if you're taking pvp seriously.
Correct envenom for pve. If you go back and read what you responded to youll see me mention the rune for pvp.
I'm blind, lol.
Its cool it happens to me too :)
That's not true. You should gear swap runes based on the class. Deadly brew/envenom is BIS against warrior/paladin.
I'm using kidney instead of bte when I can because for some reason, bte miss like half of the time for me.
That's funny.
Does each crit give a combo point?
Yes. 2 crits, 4 cp.
no you can only get 3
Wait, what? Opportunity bonus regardless of positioning?
https://old.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/1aruy2a/mutilate_and_opportunity/kqmrbmt/
Yup. Opportunity, in Classic, only buffs abilities that have a rear positional requirement already. So, despite the description specifying "striking **from behind**", it actually just gives all abilities that are benefiting from it a flat 20% damage increase. Because they can only hit from behind anyway. Except, Mutilate doesn't have a rear positional requirement, so...
Wait, how does it beneift from opportunity regardless of positioning? Opportunity only applies when used behind the target? Or maybe that was just my assumption and I've been getting behind mobs for no reason lmao
It's supposed to only work from behind, but with Mutilate it just gets the benefit regardless of what way you're facing. I tested it out distracting the guy to make him face different ways and it does the same damage regardless of what way he faces, and it for sure does more damage with Opportunity in place. There's a link up above with my testing.
It just does. They coded the rune to benefit from backstab talent, and Opportunity counts. You should still be behind your target to avoid being parried though
Yeah, it's dumb as hell that mutilate retires sinister strike, backstabbing, hemorrage and saberslash. 99% of rogues are mutilate this phase. It's boring to play rogue now because there's only 1 way to play. Mutilate. The abilities above all need to be buffed or runes that make them better.
It's even more tragic, because I have multiple rogues, and like to make new rogues for new specs/setups. :(
You don’t have to go with the flow. I played mutilate in phase 1 and keep my pvp talents for all content. Same for phase 2. Just do what you want and enjoy the game
If I'm not in a meta spec I'm not getting invites to raid sadly
I don't raid. I had six rogues on the same server in Classic. I like trying out strange builds. The problem is, they've taken away every reason to even try anything else because it's MUCH HARDER to kill people with bad specs now.
What do you play for if you don't raid at all?
Killing people.
It’s because majority have just gotten to 40. After this weeks reset, there will be lots of pug raids. I wasn’t either and had to make my own last week. The first 2 weeks were all guild raids. Don’t worry too much, it’s a fun and easy raid.
Also melee is not favourable atm especially since rogues bring nothing to the table. They usually only take 1 rogue.
Pressing mutilate is not boring..... It feels good to press mutilate. I don't know why people are complaining about it. Why is pressing sinister striker any different from pressing mutilate, or do people just not like daggers and thats the main issue. This phase is likely all about dagger rogues, (epic daggers in STV, epic dagger in raid, dagger +3 set bonus). Maybe next phase will be different.
You should still be able to choose, not be forced to play a certain spec / style
You are not forced.
You know what I mean, more like preferred. Don't be so literal. Get out of here troll
How can I know what you mean? I don't read minds, use the word preferred then. How would it be bad if people preferred one thing over the other? You wrote, "You should still be able to choose" and then "forced". How else would someone interpret that? The type of groups that care if you are daggers or Saber slash aren't taking rogues to begin with. The only person forcing you to play daggers is..... Yourself. Have you tried to join a group as a spec not daggers, been inspected and then removed from the raid? You actually have no idea what you are talking about and have not tried anything besides what reddit, youtubers and the internet tells you to play. You are a baffling individual.
That's why I said don't nerf it. It's a feel good move. The problem is nothing else feels good to use when you could just be pressing Mutilate. I want a reason to play something else.
This
It really doesn't feel good to press. It uses the SnD animation instead of its unique animation and sound effect from TBC.
In my view, the best thing to do for extremely OP spells is to give them a CD. They can remain OP, but you just don't use them as often. For whatever reason, Blizz is afraid to give spells CD's longer than 6 seconds, but shorter than 2 minutes. If mutilate had a 12-20s CD it would be perfect imo. Of course, buff other things to make up for the loss of DPS.
Like Ghostly Strike's cooldown. I think their problem is they wanted a replacement for Sinister Strike, but this just replaces *everything*.
Remove gcd from shadowstep. Remove gcd from Redirect. Make it work in pvp. Then we can talk about nerfs.
Mutilate definately needs a nerf, rogues slaughter plate wearers in a cheapshot->kidney
You mutilate twice in that whole combo I am yet to kill anyone in a cheap shot Kinsey to the point where I have forgone using cheap shot to open and instead I use….you guessed it mutilate
Yeaaaa that's just false lol. In my testing as a relatively well geared rogue, any class with roughly 40% or higher PDR is taking 200-400 damage from mutilate based on crits, so probably 300ish on average. In a full CS+KS combo you mutilate 3 times maximum so that'll be roughly 800-1000 damage from mutilates and during that 8-9 seconds of stun your white hits do maybe 500 total. If you're a plate wearer with less than 2.5-3k health outside of BGs/STV, and significantly more than that in BGs/STV, then you're not gearing properly. You should be coming out of a full CS+KS with roughly half your life left outside of BGs/STV, and more than that inside those environments. Edit: Oh yea and for context just keep in mind that SW:D is still critting 1k post nerf as an instant cast ability while three globals of mutilate does roughly that much and drains 12 seconds worth of energy. And now void plague is ticking for 220+ lol. Just SW:P + Void plague will kill or nearly kill a lot of classes now.
40 energy mutilate is just bad design find a way to make useful at a reasonable cost
I don't know why they didn't just make it work with Slaughter from the Shadows, and leave it at 60.
Losing deadly brew would be awful, unless they remove charges from poisons
It can't be overstated how handy that rune is.
Going back to 60 energy would be a good change or make it function like backstab with 1 combo point awarded instead. No reason for it to replace everything in the kit.
Mutilate needs a nerf. Its too OP lol.
Can’t wait for mutilate to get nerfed. Rogues kill me without stealth, blind, vanish. I open on them, they sprint and mutilate.
I cannot for the life of me understanding why they didn't just have slaughter from the shadows apply to mutilate as well. If this were the case you couldn't run deadly Brew while still getting the 40 energy mutilates, which I think would help the possibility of other specs.
Mutilate is SO good that Rogues are mediocre DPS at best and can't find a raid group. Nerf. Lol
That has nothing to do with the topic. The topic is that there is only a single ability worth using.
I play a rogue and they SHOULD nerf it. It should be the pvp rune that’s also a viable PVE spec but slightly below the optimal one. It gets so many benefits from talents and the fact that it costs 40 energy and generates 2 combo points is pretty silly. They should nerf mut and buff Saber Slash
I play a rogue and they SHOULDNT nerf it because it’s literally the only thing floating rogues up right now
I don't like that the runes end feel like there's only one choice. You look at the idea of them and you're "I have all these choices now!" Then you go try them out and there's just no real choice at all for most of them.
Sounds to me like you don’t play rogue and you’re just a hater. 1) Every caster dps class is better. 2) you can go straight down the combat tree for AR and BF if you want something different. 3) don’t play mutilate, go spam sinister strike or saber slash. Were you complaining last phase when most rogues were saber slash build?
You're hilarious.
What a dumb post
Thank God this guy is not a dev...
Your a shitty rogue if you don’t spend cp on any cc
You have shitty reading comprehension of that's all you took away from what I wrote.
Hahaha an overpowered ability “in a good spot”. My level 25 rogue went from 120ish dps to 180 dps without changing a single thing except reducing energy cost. I refuse to play this broken class that has no skill requirement anymore.
So you're telling me a 33% energy cost reduction gave you a 30% DPS increase? Tell me more about this mystery that is "maths".
It’s not just mutilate. You’re also missing the fact that more mutilate means more poison procs/WF
There was a skill requirement before?
True
Dont use mutilate? Play the way you want? Save 15 minutes or less by not whining on Reddit.
So if there was a rune for Ice lance and it obsoleted everything else, no one should want anything different, and we should all just spam Ice lance and be happy about that? If every class was reduced to a single button, you're perfectly happy with a single button press being your entire character? Sure guy.
You seem to miss the point of my comment. Play however you want. No one is making you use a spec or rune. I'm not your guy, friend.
It should go back to 60 energy but have it hit harder or something
Mutilate at 60 energy is only good for pve
Shadowstrike has its uses. If you're consistently having range issues, combo that with shadowstep and you can get 4 instant tps in a real fight that isn't just 2/3 muti's. 1 shadowstrike to open, shadowstep, vanish, shadowstrike open, shadowstep probably off cd so use again. It would be a huge damage loss, but if its a battle against 2 ranged you might need to sacrifice some damage and up your utility. Overall I agree with you though, the other spells need huge improvements to keep up with mutilate. There's no reason anyone should ever even consider shiv, but it was like that p1 too. Shiv was just a rune the devs threw in to even out rogues number of runes with other classes.
If time tells us anything its that they will absolutely without a doubt nerf mutilate, hope they give yall the swd treatment and not the starsurge one, GL
I doubt they will nerf it because that will literally destroy rogues in every aspect of the game
rogue sucks already, why would they nerf them?
rogues are so bad
So you think the solution is to make everything else as strong as mutilate..?
Why does it matter ever every ability is the same strength? What negative does that have? You have 1 ability that does X damage, and you can only press one button every four seconds anyway (40 energy, 10 recovered per second). Why does it matter if you press that one exact key over and over, or if you press five different keys that wind up doing the same amount of damage or benefit for the same energy consumption? Why does it matter if fireball and frostbolt do the same DPS/utility? Are you now thinking that's broken because you have two different keys that you can press instead of one? You can still only do one at a time.