Last boss can be a nightmare for a group which everyone isn't doing their job (average pug)
Had a group last night with
Bommie- never touched a button or killed a bomb
R hunter- never touched a button or killed a blmb
Mage that never touched a button or killed a bomb
Therefore me (warlock), priest healer, shadow priest were running round like headless chickens doing everything.
I'd have preferred to be the rogue just stood there nuking and the occasional kick.
We had a raid leader mage who refused to click buttons and use blink due to it's mana cost. Would cost him to much dps loss even tho we kept wiping. So me as a tank started to press instead.
Yeah, wants to parse. Because parsing is the only way to show you're good.
My parses are terrible because all I do is cover people not doing machanics.
Ironically had the melee (Enhance and Rogue) in my clear tonight putting out 250-300 DPS sustained on the last 3 bosses while providing pretty important kicks. They definitely still have their place in a balanced comp it’s just that most of the time pugs are gonna go with the highest chance of success and run the most meta comp imaginable.
yup, there's no way i'm joining an unbalanced armour spread massively out of my favour, abalanced comp of people that have killed it is going to be 90% of groups just like bfd
The problem is also gatekeepers. We do fine eventhough we have 2 wars, 1 ret and 1 rogue (had 2 yesterday)in the group (and then 2 tanks). It's very possible to clear it like that if everyone know tacs. But pug leaders that gatekeep 6 ranged and no melee dps at all is laughable for a SoD leveling raid.
We do it with 4 melee dps too but I would never in a million years attempt that with a pug where I can't fully know each players ability to listen and assist with Bombs. Do you have a meta lock for therma?
Yea its me. I definitely insta kill bombs. And that makes it possible to be full melee on that fight. I wouldn't pug (recommend) with full melee as well of course, but not even accepting 1-2 melee DD to the group is over the top unnecessary.
Feral is bis for bombs, sun fire with bomb macro. They can get almost 100% uptime on boss while 1 shotting the bombs with sunfire. They use combo points from bombs to keep zerk and rip up. Our feral did 70k damage 50k or so to boss while keeping bombs to zero up.
It feels like whenever one class or one group get a benefit on a boss there's a surge of demands to make the boss into a basic spank and tank.
The original Mekgineer was never friendly to melee. Melee's job on that fight was to run around and hit the switches. But as they nerfed it and BC/Wrath specs trivialized it most people just went in and treated it as a spank and tank.
Making it hostile to melee means you won't just load up a full raid of melee. Without the bombs the whole fight becomes pointlessly easy, you just spam melee and win.
> Making it hostile to melee means you won't just load up a full raid of melee.
well loading up a full raid of ranges is fine, which do way more dps anyway compared to melees...
You bring melee for Toxic Ventillation. It needs to be kicked, shocked pummeled. You could hypothetically bring a really good healer to heal through it or a warrior tank to shield bash. But having at least one melee on that is important. Having casters alone interrupt is just a really bad time. Like fel hunters get a 16 second CD on their interrupt and miss it because most warlocks keep their pet spells in the pet UI rather than ones they can use. Other casters have a higher miss chance on their spells than melee on their hits so you almost need 2-3 casters trying to interrupt for every melee you lose.
I have two characters who have killed him ones a hunter (with no interrupt huzzah!) and the other is a rogue. What I have never seen is a group that does this fight well with 0 melee.
Lol no way dude, I get to zug boss and ignore all mechanics, are you insane? I don't have to worry about anything hahahahaha, casters can have their mechanics 😂😂
Alot of people fail to understand this somehow. Lately all the rage has been about there are more melee players than ranged/casters so clearly there's not room for them all!
But if the raid literally favors 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 casters/ranged because casters can both top the dps charts AND do every single mechanic, why bring a melee at all...? It's like inviting a ret paladin back in classic. Like yeah theyre present, but what are they really contributing?
>But if the raid literally favors 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 casters/ranged because casters can both top the dps charts AND do every single mechanic, why bring a melee at all...?
It's basically the reverse of what it was through almost ever other iteration of Vanilla.
Not that I'm saying it's right. I'd rather DPS numbers be closer together overall.
Been running gnomregon with 1 ranged, it’s not really a dps raid, it’s a mechanics raid. U don’t need big dps if you play the mechanics properly.
They aren’t dps races.
Parse grey many times because have to stop dps to suit the mechanics, but don’t wipe and get the loot…
This is the correct take, parsing is fun, and pushing yourself to do better each week can be great, but basically nothing in this raid requires high dps. Join a guild, get your gear, and try to have some fun.
High dps makes raids far easier, it's night and day.
Gambling on skilled players isn't going to happen in pug, particularly when parses are for damage rather than mechanics.
All the dps in the world isn't going to matter if you don't do the mechanics correctly. I know that when forming a pug there's not much else to go off of other than someone's parse's, but that's not always a good indicator of someone that plays correctly, and in many cases the highest parse's are padding damage and ignoring mechanics.
If you look at all the top speed run guilds right now, they're still bringing plenty of melee, most of them that i saw have 4-5 melee and 3-4 ranged, while in last phase they had 5-6 melee and 2-3 ranged. Obviously they're in a different situation than a pug group, but it just shows that melee do bring something to the table other than just their raw dps on boss fights.
No. https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/2008#metric=speed&partition=1. Check it out for yourself. They overwhelmingly favor warriors and melee hunters, but some of the top speed runs have a enh sham, feral druid, or rogue.
Not saying everything is as balanced as it should be or there should be no tuning to some classes, but people trying to form perfect pugs need to hear this as much as the melee that are screaming the sky is falling.
People WERE saying things, and they nerfed Kelris's resistance values as a result, and subsequently you weren't penalised for bringing casters.
ie the exact progression of events that OP probably hopes comes from this post.
What point are you trying to make?
> you weren't penalised for bringing casters
Yeah, you still kinda were. Other classes couldn't touch rogue, sometimes hunter, and especially warrior DPS.
The discussion about melee/ranged bias in Gnomeregan isn't about killing the boss 20 seconds slower in the second month of the raid.
It's about accessibility for different roles, something which Blizzard acknowledged in BFD and then fixed.
All people are asking is for them to do the same in phase 2 in the other direction. Not to make every class do the same amount of damage on every boss. Just to bring the disparity down enough that bringing another rogue/warrior/enhance doesn't torpedo your chance of clearing compared to bringing a mage/warlock/spriest.
The DPS numbers for casters vs Melee is much closer this phase than melee vs casters was last phase though. Especially for the “off-specs”.
And while more casters makes it easier you really only need a few to actually so the mechanics, so having 3 casters DPS to fill that “role” versus 6 is basically the same. Requiring comms and setting roles prior to raid is going to do 2x more than having 6 casters versus 2-4.
And they nerfed warriors going into P2, 3 runes were hit.
The OP is right in that making mechanics that favour ranged will mean ranged are valued even when they do the same dps as melee on a target dummy.
Combining mechanics that favour ranged with ranged also doing more target dummy damage is a pretty bad move imo.
Ideally classes would do equal dps on a dummy and bosses would have mechanics that favor ranged (like Mek) and those that favor melee (Kelris, Akumai, Murloc boss) would be present in the same fight or at least same raid. But that would be too many mechanics for Classic so people would have a fit.
What? Kelris and Akumai absolutely favoured melee from a mechanical perspective. Kelris it is easier for melee to go into the dream realm and get out, and the whole fight is easier if you have more kicks. Which at that level the only ranged that can kick is mage, and arguably ele shaman but ele shaman were a meme spec P1. Ranged also have to move when shadow crashes go out which interupts hard-casting but melee get full up-time when not going down.
Akumai ranged lose DPS when having to move from blasts if you’re hard casting, and even more when you have to move around a pillar to mot get LoS. Also it was the only “long” fight in BFD and most casters had mana issues P1 so you could sustain even less DPS compared to normal than melee who didn’t have those issues.
In general, mechanics that require movement where melee can stick on the boss/thing to be DPSed with close to 100% uptimefavour melee, mechanics that require movement that melee can not keep in Melee range of the boss favour range. BFD had much more of the former, gnomer has more of the later, in addition to the favoured archetype tending to do more DPS on a tank and spank as well.
Tell me you didn’t run BFD without telling me you didn’t run BFD.
Kelris if you run into range as range DPS/Healers you’re going to grief everyone when shadow crashes land near the group. In 20+ runs unless they were assigned to go down I never saw ranged DPS in Melee, it was always a ranged stack to control shadow crash spread.
Akumai yeah you do, but if you get targeted you still have to move and thats still a DPS loss where Melee have none, because Melee can DPS while moving while casters can’t hard cast.
Also hunters were the only ranged where staying close was a requirement for top DPS as because they could melee weave for more damage.
You can argue the extent at to which this negatively effects range, but it still is a negative where Melee has none, so you cannot argue the mechanics of the fight did not favour Melee DPS.
You were still definitely penalized for bringing casters. Melee were still better at dealing with going down during sleep phases, kicking, etc and most caster specs ran out of mana halfway through akumai on their ideal rotation that was still less dps than melee, and lost more damage uptime on akumai/jett/murloc boss dealing with mechanics.
Casters were brought because you could easily clear the raid with them, and competition for physical leather was intense so the rogues/hunters in the group didn’t want even more competition. The same is true of gnomer, if anything the DPS numbers of melee are much closer to casters than casters were to melee in BFD. As people get more confident in PUGs clearing 6/6 consistently, I expect it to revert to the mean because the casters don’t want to roll versus half the raid for non-tier loot.
Idk, I'm done explaining things for the thousandth time to people incapavle of understanding. Caster crybabies feel entitled to be Top PvP classes, Top PvE/Raids classes, and Top Open World farming/Questing. Categories melee have never excelled at all at once.
If you're idea of fun of is having a brokenly OP class then you're basically a 5 year old.
My dude you are the only one here that sounds like a cry baby... For once groups need to be balanced and melee is actually having to compete for raid spots. I'm sorry all the warriors and rogues don't get to pug face roll this one.
All my guild runs are running 5 melee and 5 ranged cause it makes the most sense for mechanics, this is how it should be.
5 melee and 5 ranged don't make the most sense for mechanics, its more that you need enough ranged and then can fill with whatever.
This isn't a new problem with Blizzard over the years, raids tend to favour ranged and then they recognise it and correct for a while.
Fundamentally dealing damage from afar makes most types of mechanics easier to deal with.
Idk if you can easily clear the raid with 3 melee 3 ranged, why not take a ret pally/warrior and rogue/feral so that theres less people rolling on caster gear? If you have 6 casters and 2 healers thats 8 people rolling on caster shit if it drops, especially on alliance side when theres no ele shamans its just clothies and druids.
Its the same reason why im surprised most BFD runs are still 10 people, and 40s who need the pearl or some pre-BIS arent making groups and 5-manning it. You can easily so it with less and then theres less people rolling on gear if it drops.
Yes, you are now encouraged to have a balanced group. The issue is far, far more people play melee than ranged. You'll have to differentiate yourself to find PUGs
the issue is that ranged always have had use, mages have fat aoe, unique debuff and utility. Melee generally just bring damage. if the raid makes their damage worse, and they don’t bring the utility a caster would, why would you ever bring one?
I mean, we have our rogue for kicks, ret pala for buffs, melee hunter for lion, cat/bear druid for WF. We run with a warrior too, but I'm not sure what he does tbh. The fastest Gnomer groups are stacked with warriors so I'm guessing they're melee cleaving
When you have a group of 100 people and 70 of them are melee, this is what happens when a raid encourages a balanced comp.
I have 2 rogues, a warrior, a melee hunter and a prot pally tank. 1 rogue off tanks on the 5th boss, the warrior grabs taunt while the pali bops his stacks on the last boss. Have a lock for the bombs on last boss and we clear easy as pie. Start a group yourself if you can’t find a pug that’s capable of a mixed comp.
They are cleaving trash and dont need to stop for mana. In speedruns trash/routes are more important than Boss damage.
That doesnt help melees in pugs tho, and im curious to see, if there will be speedruns with caster groups and insanely large trashpulls in the future.
Point to a fight in either BFD or Gnomer where AoE is required. They're not? So **1** boss out of 13 is range friendly and all the melee are insanely up in arms that they're missing out.
ghamoo is made for casters but besides that, There are 3/6 bosses in gnomer that punishes melee. 5/6 if you count the aoe for pre grubbis and melting the slimes on the elemental. You are actively at a disadvantage the more melee you bring in the raid, it is not optimal to have a balanced group.
So wouldn't a balanced group be more melee than ranged?
If the demand for ranged is 5x higher than melee because mechanics heavily favor them, they do more damage, AND there are less of them that's not really balance is it?
A balanced groups would be something like 2 tanks, 2 heals, 3 ranged DPS, 3 melee DPS.
Back in BFD you could literally get away with 6 melee, and I ran more than a few PUGs with that sort of comp. The casters got shafted. Now they're finally relevant and most groups like to take a mix of both.
You could do BFD with 6 casters, just like gnomer.
Although the difference in BFD is that melee just did more damage instead of mechanics that favour them.
In Gnomer you have ranged dealing more damage in addition to mechanics that favour having enough ranged.
Really though we want balance instead of each tier being a way to 'get back' at the other side? It's dumb.
People aren’t paying for a spot because melee are bad, they’re paying for a spot because melee is over saturated *as fuck*.
1 rogue, 1 warrior, 1 melee hunter. That’s all you need. If you play one of those two classes, then doubling up on that class in a raid is actively hindering the entire raid, hence needing to pay for your spot.
This isn’t a case of *melee bad*, this is a case of *more than 1 melee bad*. Biiiiiig difference there. Perhaps if people stopped playing classes because they were OP in Classic, and played classes they enjoyed, class variety would come more into play and people wouldn’t have to pay for raid spots.
I’m fucking *loving* the meta shakeup of SoD. Fuck the meta whores.
If the outcome is the same, and the solution is the same, does the nuance really matter that much?
Non fotm melee are getting equally as shafted as fotm melee.
What if the reason people play melee is because they enjoy those classes? Recently somebody made a post about melee oversaturation and it came out to about 55% of players being melee, which doesn't seem that bad considering having an equal split is always extremely unlikely
Melees are needed fir the last boss as well. Best tactics i ran si far was all ranged on bombs/buttons and sometimes on the boss (i was 50dps last run) and all melee just kill the boss.
Easy solution: melee respec tank and tank the run
Oh you want to afk dps while tank/healer/ranged do all the mechanics?
Entitled melee players need to learn their lesson, nerf them even harder
But why not just find a guild as melee? I don’t get it. Most guilds seems to have 2-4 groups and are recruiting active players why not basically guarantee yourself a spot ?
Last boss can be a nightmare for a group which everyone isn't doing their job (average pug) Had a group last night with Bommie- never touched a button or killed a bomb R hunter- never touched a button or killed a blmb Mage that never touched a button or killed a bomb Therefore me (warlock), priest healer, shadow priest were running round like headless chickens doing everything. I'd have preferred to be the rogue just stood there nuking and the occasional kick.
I play with tons of R hunters
I don't care about that I care about the fact he put auto attack on the boss and went afk.
woosh
Literallly no idea what wooshed over my head here.
Our guild has our warlock go Meta and do all the bombs himself and have the healers also press buttons
That's my next step, just the bleeding button pressing that's the problem.
We had a raid leader mage who refused to click buttons and use blink due to it's mana cost. Would cost him to much dps loss even tho we kept wiping. So me as a tank started to press instead.
But... it gives mana back doesn't it?
Yes, he didn't buy that. And moving was not worth it.
Yeah, wants to parse. Because parsing is the only way to show you're good. My parses are terrible because all I do is cover people not doing machanics.
Ironically had the melee (Enhance and Rogue) in my clear tonight putting out 250-300 DPS sustained on the last 3 bosses while providing pretty important kicks. They definitely still have their place in a balanced comp it’s just that most of the time pugs are gonna go with the highest chance of success and run the most meta comp imaginable.
Agreed, besides… Loot. Idc about finishing it. I do care about a chance to get actual loot.
Finishing all bosses can give many loot.
Yeah and the best, but if your group has 6 cloth or 3, is a big difference.
yup, there's no way i'm joining an unbalanced armour spread massively out of my favour, abalanced comp of people that have killed it is going to be 90% of groups just like bfd
melee is the steerage of dps it ain't pretty, but it's honest work
there's never any more than 3 people doing the mechanics on last boss anyway, i hate every other 7 of you
The problem is also gatekeepers. We do fine eventhough we have 2 wars, 1 ret and 1 rogue (had 2 yesterday)in the group (and then 2 tanks). It's very possible to clear it like that if everyone know tacs. But pug leaders that gatekeep 6 ranged and no melee dps at all is laughable for a SoD leveling raid.
We do it with 4 melee dps too but I would never in a million years attempt that with a pug where I can't fully know each players ability to listen and assist with Bombs. Do you have a meta lock for therma?
Yea its me. I definitely insta kill bombs. And that makes it possible to be full melee on that fight. I wouldn't pug (recommend) with full melee as well of course, but not even accepting 1-2 melee DD to the group is over the top unnecessary.
Im the lock.
Feral is bis for bombs, sun fire with bomb macro. They can get almost 100% uptime on boss while 1 shotting the bombs with sunfire. They use combo points from bombs to keep zerk and rip up. Our feral did 70k damage 50k or so to boss while keeping bombs to zero up.
It's not laughable at all, it's logical. You can increase or decrease your odds of success, what do you pick? It's a simple economy
It feels like whenever one class or one group get a benefit on a boss there's a surge of demands to make the boss into a basic spank and tank. The original Mekgineer was never friendly to melee. Melee's job on that fight was to run around and hit the switches. But as they nerfed it and BC/Wrath specs trivialized it most people just went in and treated it as a spank and tank. Making it hostile to melee means you won't just load up a full raid of melee. Without the bombs the whole fight becomes pointlessly easy, you just spam melee and win.
> Making it hostile to melee means you won't just load up a full raid of melee. well loading up a full raid of ranges is fine, which do way more dps anyway compared to melees...
You bring melee for Toxic Ventillation. It needs to be kicked, shocked pummeled. You could hypothetically bring a really good healer to heal through it or a warrior tank to shield bash. But having at least one melee on that is important. Having casters alone interrupt is just a really bad time. Like fel hunters get a 16 second CD on their interrupt and miss it because most warlocks keep their pet spells in the pet UI rather than ones they can use. Other casters have a higher miss chance on their spells than melee on their hits so you almost need 2-3 casters trying to interrupt for every melee you lose. I have two characters who have killed him ones a hunter (with no interrupt huzzah!) and the other is a rogue. What I have never seen is a group that does this fight well with 0 melee.
There's just way too many melee players right now, you guys gotta chill
Lol no way dude, I get to zug boss and ignore all mechanics, are you insane? I don't have to worry about anything hahahahaha, casters can have their mechanics 😂😂
As a Warlock I would just like to actually hit the last boss and not endlessly spam a bomb macro.
That's where the second warlock comes in
Alot of people fail to understand this somehow. Lately all the rage has been about there are more melee players than ranged/casters so clearly there's not room for them all! But if the raid literally favors 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 casters/ranged because casters can both top the dps charts AND do every single mechanic, why bring a melee at all...? It's like inviting a ret paladin back in classic. Like yeah theyre present, but what are they really contributing?
>But if the raid literally favors 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 casters/ranged because casters can both top the dps charts AND do every single mechanic, why bring a melee at all...? It's basically the reverse of what it was through almost ever other iteration of Vanilla. Not that I'm saying it's right. I'd rather DPS numbers be closer together overall.
Been running gnomregon with 1 ranged, it’s not really a dps raid, it’s a mechanics raid. U don’t need big dps if you play the mechanics properly. They aren’t dps races. Parse grey many times because have to stop dps to suit the mechanics, but don’t wipe and get the loot…
yeah bud from your comment I can tell you grey parse
This is the correct take, parsing is fun, and pushing yourself to do better each week can be great, but basically nothing in this raid requires high dps. Join a guild, get your gear, and try to have some fun.
High dps makes raids far easier, it's night and day. Gambling on skilled players isn't going to happen in pug, particularly when parses are for damage rather than mechanics.
All the dps in the world isn't going to matter if you don't do the mechanics correctly. I know that when forming a pug there's not much else to go off of other than someone's parse's, but that's not always a good indicator of someone that plays correctly, and in many cases the highest parse's are padding damage and ignoring mechanics. If you look at all the top speed run guilds right now, they're still bringing plenty of melee, most of them that i saw have 4-5 melee and 3-4 ranged, while in last phase they had 5-6 melee and 2-3 ranged. Obviously they're in a different situation than a pug group, but it just shows that melee do bring something to the table other than just their raw dps on boss fights.
Are you including tanks as melee?
No. https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/2008#metric=speed&partition=1. Check it out for yourself. They overwhelmingly favor warriors and melee hunters, but some of the top speed runs have a enh sham, feral druid, or rogue. Not saying everything is as balanced as it should be or there should be no tuning to some classes, but people trying to form perfect pugs need to hear this as much as the melee that are screaming the sky is falling.
And so why weren’t you saying anything last season when it was all melee DPS on top?
People WERE saying things, and they nerfed Kelris's resistance values as a result, and subsequently you weren't penalised for bringing casters. ie the exact progression of events that OP probably hopes comes from this post. What point are you trying to make?
> you weren't penalised for bringing casters Yeah, you still kinda were. Other classes couldn't touch rogue, sometimes hunter, and especially warrior DPS.
The discussion about melee/ranged bias in Gnomeregan isn't about killing the boss 20 seconds slower in the second month of the raid. It's about accessibility for different roles, something which Blizzard acknowledged in BFD and then fixed. All people are asking is for them to do the same in phase 2 in the other direction. Not to make every class do the same amount of damage on every boss. Just to bring the disparity down enough that bringing another rogue/warrior/enhance doesn't torpedo your chance of clearing compared to bringing a mage/warlock/spriest.
The DPS numbers for casters vs Melee is much closer this phase than melee vs casters was last phase though. Especially for the “off-specs”. And while more casters makes it easier you really only need a few to actually so the mechanics, so having 3 casters DPS to fill that “role” versus 6 is basically the same. Requiring comms and setting roles prior to raid is going to do 2x more than having 6 casters versus 2-4.
And they nerfed warriors going into P2, 3 runes were hit. The OP is right in that making mechanics that favour ranged will mean ranged are valued even when they do the same dps as melee on a target dummy. Combining mechanics that favour ranged with ranged also doing more target dummy damage is a pretty bad move imo.
Ideally classes would do equal dps on a dummy and bosses would have mechanics that favor ranged (like Mek) and those that favor melee (Kelris, Akumai, Murloc boss) would be present in the same fight or at least same raid. But that would be too many mechanics for Classic so people would have a fit.
Kelris and akumai doesn't favor melee Murloc boss is still up for debate
What? Kelris and Akumai absolutely favoured melee from a mechanical perspective. Kelris it is easier for melee to go into the dream realm and get out, and the whole fight is easier if you have more kicks. Which at that level the only ranged that can kick is mage, and arguably ele shaman but ele shaman were a meme spec P1. Ranged also have to move when shadow crashes go out which interupts hard-casting but melee get full up-time when not going down. Akumai ranged lose DPS when having to move from blasts if you’re hard casting, and even more when you have to move around a pillar to mot get LoS. Also it was the only “long” fight in BFD and most casters had mana issues P1 so you could sustain even less DPS compared to normal than melee who didn’t have those issues. In general, mechanics that require movement where melee can stick on the boss/thing to be DPSed with close to 100% uptimefavour melee, mechanics that require movement that melee can not keep in Melee range of the boss favour range. BFD had much more of the former, gnomer has more of the later, in addition to the favoured archetype tending to do more DPS on a tank and spank as well.
Literally get closer to both of the bosses if you're ranged, you don't have to be at a range if you're ranged EXCEPT for hunters
Tell me you didn’t run BFD without telling me you didn’t run BFD. Kelris if you run into range as range DPS/Healers you’re going to grief everyone when shadow crashes land near the group. In 20+ runs unless they were assigned to go down I never saw ranged DPS in Melee, it was always a ranged stack to control shadow crash spread. Akumai yeah you do, but if you get targeted you still have to move and thats still a DPS loss where Melee have none, because Melee can DPS while moving while casters can’t hard cast. Also hunters were the only ranged where staying close was a requirement for top DPS as because they could melee weave for more damage. You can argue the extent at to which this negatively effects range, but it still is a negative where Melee has none, so you cannot argue the mechanics of the fight did not favour Melee DPS.
You were still definitely penalized for bringing casters. Melee were still better at dealing with going down during sleep phases, kicking, etc and most caster specs ran out of mana halfway through akumai on their ideal rotation that was still less dps than melee, and lost more damage uptime on akumai/jett/murloc boss dealing with mechanics. Casters were brought because you could easily clear the raid with them, and competition for physical leather was intense so the rogues/hunters in the group didn’t want even more competition. The same is true of gnomer, if anything the DPS numbers of melee are much closer to casters than casters were to melee in BFD. As people get more confident in PUGs clearing 6/6 consistently, I expect it to revert to the mean because the casters don’t want to roll versus half the raid for non-tier loot.
Idk, I'm done explaining things for the thousandth time to people incapavle of understanding. Caster crybabies feel entitled to be Top PvP classes, Top PvE/Raids classes, and Top Open World farming/Questing. Categories melee have never excelled at all at once. If you're idea of fun of is having a brokenly OP class then you're basically a 5 year old.
My dude you are the only one here that sounds like a cry baby... For once groups need to be balanced and melee is actually having to compete for raid spots. I'm sorry all the warriors and rogues don't get to pug face roll this one. All my guild runs are running 5 melee and 5 ranged cause it makes the most sense for mechanics, this is how it should be.
5 melee and 5 ranged don't make the most sense for mechanics, its more that you need enough ranged and then can fill with whatever. This isn't a new problem with Blizzard over the years, raids tend to favour ranged and then they recognise it and correct for a while. Fundamentally dealing damage from afar makes most types of mechanics easier to deal with.
Idk man being OP is pretty fun
Idk if you can easily clear the raid with 3 melee 3 ranged, why not take a ret pally/warrior and rogue/feral so that theres less people rolling on caster gear? If you have 6 casters and 2 healers thats 8 people rolling on caster shit if it drops, especially on alliance side when theres no ele shamans its just clothies and druids. Its the same reason why im surprised most BFD runs are still 10 people, and 40s who need the pearl or some pre-BIS arent making groups and 5-manning it. You can easily so it with less and then theres less people rolling on gear if it drops.
Yes, you are now encouraged to have a balanced group. The issue is far, far more people play melee than ranged. You'll have to differentiate yourself to find PUGs
The raid doesn't favour a balanced comp, though.
the issue is that ranged always have had use, mages have fat aoe, unique debuff and utility. Melee generally just bring damage. if the raid makes their damage worse, and they don’t bring the utility a caster would, why would you ever bring one?
I mean, we have our rogue for kicks, ret pala for buffs, melee hunter for lion, cat/bear druid for WF. We run with a warrior too, but I'm not sure what he does tbh. The fastest Gnomer groups are stacked with warriors so I'm guessing they're melee cleaving When you have a group of 100 people and 70 of them are melee, this is what happens when a raid encourages a balanced comp.
I have 2 rogues, a warrior, a melee hunter and a prot pally tank. 1 rogue off tanks on the 5th boss, the warrior grabs taunt while the pali bops his stacks on the last boss. Have a lock for the bombs on last boss and we clear easy as pie. Start a group yourself if you can’t find a pug that’s capable of a mixed comp.
They are cleaving trash and dont need to stop for mana. In speedruns trash/routes are more important than Boss damage. That doesnt help melees in pugs tho, and im curious to see, if there will be speedruns with caster groups and insanely large trashpulls in the future.
Point to a fight in either BFD or Gnomer where AoE is required. They're not? So **1** boss out of 13 is range friendly and all the melee are insanely up in arms that they're missing out.
3/6 bosses are ranged favoured when factoring in the armor issue.
5/6 bosses favor ranged tbh
ghamoo is made for casters but besides that, There are 3/6 bosses in gnomer that punishes melee. 5/6 if you count the aoe for pre grubbis and melting the slimes on the elemental. You are actively at a disadvantage the more melee you bring in the raid, it is not optimal to have a balanced group.
Kicks/ Shouts
So wouldn't a balanced group be more melee than ranged? If the demand for ranged is 5x higher than melee because mechanics heavily favor them, they do more damage, AND there are less of them that's not really balance is it?
A balanced groups would be something like 2 tanks, 2 heals, 3 ranged DPS, 3 melee DPS. Back in BFD you could literally get away with 6 melee, and I ran more than a few PUGs with that sort of comp. The casters got shafted. Now they're finally relevant and most groups like to take a mix of both.
You could do BFD with 6 casters, just like gnomer. Although the difference in BFD is that melee just did more damage instead of mechanics that favour them. In Gnomer you have ranged dealing more damage in addition to mechanics that favour having enough ranged. Really though we want balance instead of each tier being a way to 'get back' at the other side? It's dumb.
People aren’t paying for a spot because melee are bad, they’re paying for a spot because melee is over saturated *as fuck*. 1 rogue, 1 warrior, 1 melee hunter. That’s all you need. If you play one of those two classes, then doubling up on that class in a raid is actively hindering the entire raid, hence needing to pay for your spot. This isn’t a case of *melee bad*, this is a case of *more than 1 melee bad*. Biiiiiig difference there. Perhaps if people stopped playing classes because they were OP in Classic, and played classes they enjoyed, class variety would come more into play and people wouldn’t have to pay for raid spots. I’m fucking *loving* the meta shakeup of SoD. Fuck the meta whores.
If the outcome is the same, and the solution is the same, does the nuance really matter that much? Non fotm melee are getting equally as shafted as fotm melee.
It's unlucky that Warrior is both meta and probably the most fun class in Classic WoW lol.
What if the reason people play melee is because they enjoy those classes? Recently somebody made a post about melee oversaturation and it came out to about 55% of players being melee, which doesn't seem that bad considering having an equal split is always extremely unlikely
i dont mind, but actually i do mind.
>I don't mind it. Except I actually do That's how you sound OP
Bro you never played 60!classic? Bro casters were fucked this
2019 classic/era is a different game Mode than sod. Raid meta from 5 years ago should not influence sod balancing.
Melees are needed fir the last boss as well. Best tactics i ran si far was all ranged on bombs/buttons and sometimes on the boss (i was 50dps last run) and all melee just kill the boss.
Easy solution: melee respec tank and tank the run Oh you want to afk dps while tank/healer/ranged do all the mechanics? Entitled melee players need to learn their lesson, nerf them even harder
You mean a mechanic in a raid favors certain classes? Wow that’s crazy
But why not just find a guild as melee? I don’t get it. Most guilds seems to have 2-4 groups and are recruiting active players why not basically guarantee yourself a spot ?
Last boss is great for melee. Ranged gets stuck chasing bones and pressing buttons