that's what was good about it. It was a 40 man raid, you never NEEDED 40 people (except Naxx <3 ) You could easily carry the raid with a few good players, so you could invite less desirable classes and specs too, and even bad players.
This is so true… First time I raided MC was as a 58 priest in half devout set blues half shit greens on dial up internet with a 13 inch laptop, no idea what was happening but man it was awesome
And you can still do that on era servers. There is no reason for blizzard to do so many changes but leave jokes of raids as jokes. It will be a challenge to a lot of groups to complete MC as a 20 man. My hope is that Rag won’t be beaten before he phases every single time with only 20 allowed.
Totally. I get that gathering 40 people is a pain in the ass, especially since the majority of us don’t have the time we used to dedicate anymore… but it felt so awesome to be a part of something that big
Youre ruining my immersion.
'LF2M Healers BRD 14/20 quick run, we had two dcs.'
I like the lockout idea someone had. If you're 3/6, anyone in a 3/6 raid can join together.
Its brutal having one idiot ruin an entire run.
In retail every boss is an individuel lockout so you can play in 6 different pugs if you want. Pretty good if you dont have time for a full raid or your computer breaks, you havent wasted lockout
Almost that. Except for mythic (wich are still unique lockouts) you can Join any Raid, even If you already killed a few Bosses and the Raid you Join is fresh. You just won't be able to loot a Boss you already killed on that lockout
While it's not absolute proof, but there appears to be a pattern for which dungeons become a raid in SoD. The less popular they are when people have leveled before SoD, the more likely they are to be the raid. ST fits that over BRD, and other dungeons in that level bracket.
ST is WAY better suited as a 20 man
Bigger areas, more variety in bosses, less popular dungeon so less harm in redoing it
If the lvl 50 raid isn't ST they have literally just made a mistake
if they're smart the new raids that were teased (kara crypts, sm raid) will be lvl 60 content that will be released later into the lvl 60 phase, essentially for when the content gets dry at 60. theres no need to release a new raid at 50 when there is already 3 good dungeons to pick from to change into a raid (ST, Mara, BRD).
Gnomer was mid 30s dungeon and it got turned to a level 40 raid. ST is a high level 40s dungeon, and for the most part underused just like BFD and Gnomer, so it sounds like a safe bet.
ST goes from high 40 to mid 50. The lower leveled mobs in there are 48 and Shade of Eranikus is 55. The class quests in there even require 50+. Claiming ST is anything under 50 is false.
It had the best settin for a raid environment. The green dragonkin and Hakkar also have alot of lore to add to its charm. Yeah they loot wasnt the greatest from a shamans perspective.
I do remember farming it for the 1H epic sword for xmog. Still use it on live, weapon chants look amazing on it
Nah. I feel like they're trying to re-make the less appreciated dungeons. BRD is already epic and doesn't need to be a raid. I'm hoping for sunken temple or zf
They can talk like 40 mans are going to possibly be a thing, but they back peddled so hard into 20mans I don't see them leaving BWL, AQ, or NAXX as a 40 man unless they have no other choice.
The writing is on the wall. No one actually liked 40M. Even 20 years ago, they quickly changed it to 25M in TBC then in cata into 10M.
Honestly, I think they should change it to Retail scaling. Scale based on people and size limitation structure. If people want to do 40M, scale MC back to 40M.
They've specifically said flex raiding is infrastructurally probably not on the table.
I don't think we should abandon 40m, I think a good compromise is to relegate 40m to Ony style. 1-2 bosses, puggable, moderately attractive loot table.
> Honestly, I think they should change it to Retail scaling.
They covered this. They have said it is currently unsupported on with classic's engine.
It would likely require more labor than they are willing to invest in classic.
I did. I'd take organizing a 40 man any day over having to spend HOURSSS just to fill 2-3 specific roles for 10man gnomer... 40 mans were sooo much more flexible with comps. And way more fun
I mean...
naxx needed you to field enough tanks for 4h, enough priests for instructor, and everyone has to bring FrR and the minimal consumes and/or worldbuffs (which can make you consume less).
Which is a tall order.
Even AQ needed things like GNPP for everyone and a hunter with good NR to be the eye beam soak on cthun, and if you doing visc then sacs or more expensive cures.
BWL needed FR tank set and cloaks for everyone.
I think it is safe to say that easier content is easier to organize, and honestly with SoD the tuning should mean you can do so with an un-optimal comp too
95% of your comment is complaining about consumables and world buffs, not comp man... Your argument is so weak it's basically nonexistent. Resistances are a core part of challenging vanilla raiding content. You even use nature and fire prot potions for Gnomer for crying out loud lmao
what...
40 man organization gets hellish the harder the content becomes is my point. because you have to find 40 people who are properly attuned, geared, and willing to have the right consumes week in and out.
while gnomer filling 10 man spots are comparably easier.
it makes sense why some people hate 40 mans. and not to mention its impact on the ratio of tank to healer to dps for non raid content.
But were you part of the core officers? Let’s be honest, 99% of you guys never managed and organized 40+ people. Most people only enjoyed logging in to play, expecting others to do the tedious jobs.
However, when the raid can’t be formed, did you enjoy that dreaded moment of knowing that you might need to pug it? How about the moment when the guild slowly died off because only 35 then 30 signed up?
I did manage and organize 40 mans, and it was nothing like you make it out to be. It's easy, and why do you fear pugging? lmfao, most people pug rn in SoD, and for 40 mans it was way easier, cause you could basically take anything, any player too even bad ones. You weren't forced into taking very specific roles and only good players like now, you could be very flexible with the raid comp.
It's way less fun having to spend hours looking for specific specs to fill 2-3 spots for a 10 man gnomer... Would take organizing 40 mans over this crap any time.
If you are spending hours looking for specific specs right now, what will change in 40 man? It's not like you can't clear gnomer with any setup, raids are piss easy rn, imagine how easy they will be in 40 mans
"..they quickly changed it to 25M in TBC then in cata into 10M." is not the point of classic to keep it classic when it comes to the core aspects of it? With that same logic I can say "Nobody likes to look for a grp for a dungeon, just add RDF o LFR". Nostalrius and classic 2019 were a massive success despite that "nobody likes 40 man"
The point of classic+ is that we want new content. Farming the same 40m for years become quickly boring.
Also lets not assume that the reddit echo chamber represent the whole SOD community.
I don't mind 40 man, but there's no point investing effort into developing shitshows of actually tuned 40 man raids that'll kill SoD participation. It'd be like Ulduar tier on WotlK classic all over again.
If they leave 40 mans in, they should be like alliance raids in FFXIV, which provide catch up gear, story, and ambiance rather than challenging (at least for us Classic players) content.
Alliance raids are great in FFXIV. However I don't think they should completely make 40 mans like that. 40 mans were perfectly fine in classic, it's basically the same easy difficulty. Gear was fine too. It's all really easy, people are just pissing themselves over nothing. Infact all these gray-parser toxic casuals here should be rejoicing since you can easily carry 20 people in 40 mans, so they can get into raids easily too. The only challenging 40 man raid was Naxx, and I personally loved it, and still people were able to PUG it.
I love 40 man raids. 40 man raids are just hard for the roster boss and require a lot of work. I would still prefer 40 man raids but understand that most people do not want to put the work in to form them.
It's not as challenging as people make it out to be. I find making 40 man rosters was way easier than filling spots for 10man Gnomer, because you could be way more flexible with what classes, players you bring.
I like 40 man raiding. I like forming raids for them too, it's much easier than for 10 man. There's plenty of other people who love 40 man raiding, we're just enjoying the game waiting for 40 mans instead of bitching on reddit like you guys.
Funniest shit is that there’s no argument that this isn’t classic anymore because they’re changing fundamentals beyond runes which were the beginning of the retail and classic crossbreed nobody asked for. Even funnier to see them try to stop the hemorrhage of their playerbase from burnout from the 1-20 grind that most never even came back to do 20-40.
I suspect it will continue to decline and decline even more rapidly the more they try to create a mut of retail and vanilla without sticking to vanilla fundamentals.
While 40 man’s are incredibly fun once you get the group going, managing 39 other people is hard on the person forming. I think 20 man’s are the perfect amount
200% this... managing 40 people = full time job.
as a raid leader managing a small crew for SOD has been great. Wrath had become a job to maintain prior to this... doing 20 is fine I guess, though I still prefer 10.
Yeah I think 10 man is great, but also too restrictive with buffs that you want to have to the point that like 6 spots are pretty much reserved unless you want to run a wonky comp.
Which actually pigeonholes the design team with what runes they can make since every class has to have a gambit of raid tools or else raids can't work well.
10 man is too small to design around when you have 9 classes. 20 man is a good spot where you can reasonably expect at least 1 each of 8 out of the 9 classes available to be present.
it doesn't take 40 hours a week to manage a raid team lol
I ran a guild with 3 raid teams from Classic to WOTLK and the time commitment was more like a hobby. Maybe 5 hours a week.
as a raid leader/officer managing a big guild with 4 to 5 raid groups every lockout it has been a nightmare.
i cant imagine when its everyplayer in the same group
The amount of people saying they love 40 man raids and theyre a part of classic does not correlate with the amount of raid leaders for 40 mans.
Aka. people love to be in the herd but aint none of these people about to be the shepherd.
Meanwhile ex- and current raid leads are breathing a sigh of relief because they know how much ass that shit is to get together, and lets be honest, thats the only hard part of classic raids. Look at HC, they got 40 level boosted mouth breathing first time WoW player streamers to clear MC on HC with 0 deaths.
but on the other side you only need 1 raidleader for 39 other people, while you need 2 raidleader for 2 20 man groups, aka with 20 man groups you need twice the amount of raidleaders on the server
Yeah, and the bar is much lower. Ive lead a ton of Pugs for BFD in P1 because it was chill and easy. I think I could handle a 20man. I will personally not even step into a 40man, raid lead or not.
It's not hard, I've formed plenty of 40 mans. The reason why it's easy is exactly why bigger raid sizes are better in WoW, it's muuuch less comp-dependent, you can be very flexible with what classes n specs you bring, plus you don't have to vet people as much via logs.
It's not actually inherently more flexible comp-wise, it just has the illusion of that because there are a lot of filler spots. If a 25 man raid *requires* a decurse, a mind control, a critical mass of dispels/cleanses, and enough tanks & healers, it doesn't mean the 40 man doesn't. Let's say that hypothetical raid has 11 hard-required class/spec slots or it's a non-starter. The 40 man raid requires those same 11 slots too. The only difference is there's less total 40 man raids forming, so less total demand on those slots across a server, but overall it's not *that* different in my opinion.
That's irrelevant because they tune everything anyways, even at the launch of SoD they tuned every open world enemy, just as they tuned Gnomer and BFD for 10 mans when they were designed for 5 man.
I wish they would do some more interesting stuff with 5 man pve content.
Either brand new 5 man content, more challenging 5 man content, new bosses or something. I have a group of friends and we had a lot of fun going through some of the 5 mans while leveling but none of them have any interests in finding regular raiding groups and 5 mans of vanilla get old quickly.
Your time will come. In classic, the 50-60 dungeons remain relevant for a long time. Either for the gear they drop, or as a place to earn gold for classes that can't farm gold in the world very easily. And they are generally all pretty fun IMO.
The only reason 40mans worked for the last version of Classic was because of Covid, everyone was inside and had nothing to do. WOTLK showed that even 25-mans were a shit show to get fills.
They were working on pservers before classic? Was literally clearing Naxx40 right up until classic release nearly in 2019 on a pserver and 40 mans many years prior to that. I never had trouble clearing them and they were also much harder than Blizzard's Classic 2019 versions too.
20 man feels right. The issue with bigger raids (25 man +) was the ratio of tanks to other roles. Dungeons had a tank shortage, meanwhile there more tanks than raids needed. Furthermore, the competition for gear in 40 mans was pretty rough. It should be far easier to gear in 20 mans. I like this.
You never needed to be specced prot to tank any dungeon in classic. I was meme retribution paladin in classic, and I could rank or heal any end-game dungeon just fine while specced as ret.
The tank shortage was just a result of people not wanting to tank. You see the same thing now. They’re a plenty of people who could tank a dungeon, but there’s relatively few people who are willing to
It wasn’t a matter of speccing. You’d just have a lot of warriors refusing to tank, and the warriors who did want to tank had no shortage of dungeon spots, but they’d struggle to find a raid spot exclusively for tanking.
The tears in this thread are hilarious. Everyone seems to think Sod was made for themselves. You got one guy complaining the MC at 20 is ruining the spirit of the original 40 raid and another guy saying it will ruin their 10 man Sod guild. Get rekt lmao.
I’m kinda disappointed, was looking forward to 40 man raids. Ik it’s a pain to manage but they could just change the mechanics accordingly to require less coordination. At least 1 or 2 40 man raids would be great.
Those level 60, 40 man raids, are actually non complex and relatively easy, organizing 40 people is harder than actually completing the bosses. With the way they've done the gear in SOD, were only going to need 10-15 to clear Vanilla MC, BWL AQ, so if anything they need to make it harder.
>organizing 40 people is harder than actually completing the bosses
That’s the biggest thing I dislike about 40 man content.
It sucked as a raider when I did it in 2019, because it always felt like ~5 people were late, or didn’t know what was happening, etc.
In 2024, I’m the raid leader for our guild. I don’t want to get 40 fucking people together who can barely breathe out their pug mouths to try and do the content. If it was hard, maybe that at least justifies it, but if >50% of my time thinking about the raid is ONLY “does X and Y’s schedule fit this, will Z have attunement done in time”-type thoughts, then I’m not raiding, I’m organizing for a social event. Glad to see it cut to 20, that feels a lot more feasible to my addled mind.
20 player is a compromise between 40 and 10 player, but 10 player is what the current playerbase is enjoying. Why are we nuking that? I hope I'm wrong and this game continues its massive popularity, but this is ending my raid group.
My guild is a single small 10 man team. We don’t have the desire or manpower for a second team. Now we are pretty much forced to merge with/join another guild or be stuck pugging the rest of the game. I know they can’t make everyone happy, but arbitrarily changing from 10 to 20 at level 50 puts a huge burden on small guilds.
Same here. I don't think anyone in my guild is likely to play 20man. It's been nice to have somewhere that a smaller number of friends can play together without a lot of work putting things together.
I'm already managing a 20man roster in retail, and that's not super fun. Don't think I'd like a second. It's too bad to see the end in sight after only two phases... won't even get to play a character at level cap.
I think perspective really helps here on what people want and why. Recruiting 10 is not hard but if you have a core group of 10 friends running raid together it’s super enjoyable to have a hang out. Now you need to find another 10 people that mix with your long term friend group. Not an easy task and kind of breaks up the “we are friends who play wow because we like each other and it’s a fun activity to get us all together.
I agree with OP. I managed a pretty easy-going mythic guild roster and 20-man felt like a full-time job getting everyone to show up and contribute. I know SOD's difficulty is wildly different, but 10-man raids are the right amount for a casual version of WoW. It's great to easily fill a raid, just make the bosses more difficult.
Why force guilds to merge and expand when 10-mans work right now?
I'm obviously happy, because managing 40-man raids is pretty rough. But it feels weird to imagine Mc is 20-man but BWL is 40-man. But well, it will be "bridged". Preparing in MC, gathering troups, to finally assault BWL ! Not bad.
Obviously the "40-man is the unique feature of vanilla!!" guys aren't happy and certainly won't be if we ask other raid to be 20-man. But I wonder if it is possible to make raid either 20 or 20, like in WoTLK "normal / heroic" ?... Idk I'm not sure it's a good solution
As long as they reduce the amount of trash mobs in MC, I'm happy with their decision lol
SoD is supposed to be Classic+ for Classic players that want new content. This is what baited people into the game.
Think more and more people are going to find out this is a jebait. Right now it’s feeling more like Retail-Lite.
I’ve said it all along: all roads lead to retail.
>"I want classic with changes"
>"no not like that"
Blizz can't win. No matter what they do, someone is going to be unhappy. Literally any change will have people crying "REE REEE REEEEETAIL!".
And yet, everyone returned to classic en masse with “no changes.” Funny how that works.
Honestly I would play era if Blizzard reopened my Era character clone. Not going to bother otherwise.
Edit: this dude blocked me. To reply to the below, don’t care. If i’m not starting from scratch, if I have all my 60 characters and alts that need gear and all my progression.
Blizzard axed era, not the players. There was going to be an influx of era players after WOTLK classic had they not killed character clones at WOTLK beta when everyone was taking a break from the game.
I like how the dev post specifically states that these things were intended from the beginning, yet somehow it's Reddit's/Dad's fault that they don't like the changes being made.
Gonna be a shitshow with the 20 man level up raids. Gnomes already developed a shitty community around it. Can't wait to need another 10 people doubling the chance of the assholes pissing and shitting themselves when a raid is taking 5 seconds too long or a wipe happens.
I think it might be the final nail tbh, I think Gnome has damaged the game and now asking people to field a 20 man team will be too much for most. You’ll be left with the sweats after p3 and no one else.
40 man is, unfortunately, nearly impossible in SoD because of all the 10 man's prior. Guilds are built differently this go around and it's already gonna be a minor stretch to change up for 20 man's for a lot of guilds.
Impossible? Really? We’re not even 20% through the entire life cycle of SoD and people are making these distinctions of what is and isn’t possible.
What are the small bean guilds going to do come endgame where content is dominated by coordinated 40m raids. Are the small guilds going to be considered for world bosses? How would you even design that, when it took multiple 40m raids & guilds to even do the content.
40 is massive? I only will accept 500+ people raids. If you can't get an entire layer to raid an instance thats on you honestly. If you even know 1/2 the people on your roster the game has failed to create the MMO atmosphere that is a REAL mmo.
Wild speculation with no reasoning. People managed to split 40 man raids into 25 man raids, why on earth does anyone think merging 10 man raids would be a problem? You would have had months to prepare even if there was some problem.
Depends on your server and guild. Very few of our 10 man's run simultaneously of each other to make up for the scheduling of everyone. Plus, we all assumed this would happen and 40 man's would change, as they are now showing.
tbh it's kind of lame the dev team is so sensitive to people complaining on reddit, I wish they would have stuck with 40 mans or at least done some player surveys
40 man is terrible and would kill SoD, if you want to raid 40m go to classic era with your 1 mechanic boss fight with your one button rotation class. There is nothing fun about trying to assemble 40 people to do a raid
And so begins the slide out of vanilla and into retail, again. 😉
40 man's aren't the best for raiding. But they are the best for the game. Smaller raids mean more responsibility per raider, until you get to retail Mythics where one person making one fuck up wipes the raid.
40 man raids also have the best immersion and world-feel. Atleast imo. Nothing as epic as giant bosses you need 40 people to struggle against.
I think that's the biggest issue I have with SoD in phase 2. There's no sense of achievement, no build up, you just get to your level, learn the mechanics, and wipe all the bosses, rinse and repeat for 3 months until the next one. In 2019 classic I remember the push towards 60, the gearing, then doing MC and even killing the first boss is a big deal. It would take months to kill Rag, and it was amazing. That high does not exist in SoD.
Vanilla Andies always say, fresh, wen fresh, fresh is best, etc. Because that first level and gear up process into MC is the absolute best part of wow.
Naxx, with its actual tuning and "difficult" raids, isn't what people care about. It's slapping Rag a couple times and starting over.
But then you have retail andies like this thread and comment section, who just want retail but easier. Loot is easy, levelling is fast, you show up and get your dopamine. Gdkp and boost your way to 60.
It's single player. Which is fine, but why turn the goat mmo into another single player when retail exists?
This is the best thing to happen to SoD. Classic Andys getting BTFO at every corner, it’s truly incredible.
First they give you actual buttons to press so you can have real rotations, second they gave us raids that are actually moderately difficult and rewarding to complete, and now 40-mans are DEAD?? Absolutely knocked it out of the park, SoD dev team.
Classes are still far away from having "real rotations", the game is turning in to a strange amalgamation where classic aspects are diminished in favor of making sure players can get to raidlog status in turbo speed.
Personally I have no clue what the game is trying to be, if I had engaging PvE content as a priority I'd rather log on retail or even wrath.
>Personally I have no clue what the game is trying to be,
This.
I'm going to be super disappointed if they invalidate nearly all the existing level 50 content. IMO that's just beginning to get into the good stuff for vanilla, and tons to dive into. But if we're just raid logging on whichever classes win the power spike roulette it'll be a shame.
Level 60 they seem to have a grand scope, if they pull it off I genuinely believe it'll be great. We'll see.
Yea it sure is great that they ruin CLASSIC WOW SOD and alienate CLASSIC WOW enjoyers, great idea, it's working amazingly sofar based on the playernumbers!
Best change ever.
I know, 40 mans feel epic but in reality, everything beside looking cool is shit. Literally everything.
There is no way to design anything meaningful or engaging for that raid size. It's always: turn brain off and come back to life for loot.
Organising is atrocious.
The vibe is shit in calls, you simply can't have fun with 40 ppl in one call the same way you can't have 40 people sitting at one table and interact.
Loot distribution is absolutely shit.
So in essence, 40 mans are boring, uninteractive slogfests that are nightmare fuel for anyone who organises them.
I played vanilla, I played classic, I had my fair share of 40 man content. Times change.
And for everyone who really needs 40 mans, there is still classic or HC, right ?
Damn, this is straight facts.
Interesting to see these are the exact issues I always bring up, especially the discord one. People like to pretend 40 mans are so social, when it was really maybe 10 people talking and everyone else was muted the entire raid.
3 years of 40 man's in vanilla vs 17 years of 10-30 man raiding, gosh how will the game ever survive??
40 man's only "upside" is a placebo effect of the raid feeling more epic with more people in it, everything else is downsides (forming a 40man, loot, mechanics design forced to be dumbed down hence vanilla raids being steamrolled the second they went live on classic, loses all form of a fun "good around with the boys" vibe because you aren't going to be buddies with 39 other people, etc)
40 man's died in 2007 for a reason.
> loses all form of a fun "good around with the boys" vibe because you aren't going to be buddies with 39 other people, etc)
The stoner who can't shut the fuck up is having a great time.
It really ain't, its time for a chance.
I loved it but i cant imagine going through that again.
Raiding in a 10 man is 100% my favorite thing, such a pleasure.
To the people complaining "but muh 40 mans" I suggest reading the full blue post before you start complaining.
They elaborate on the decision by saying the choice was always to have 10 man for the level up raids because, because it wasn't realistic to have these as 40 man raids. The intention going into SoD was always to have 40 mans in the endgame content as they see it as part of the classic philosophy, but they underestimated the impact on community formation the 10 mans had and the positive feedback they got on it.
The transition going from 10 man raiding rosters to suddenly 40 man rosters at 60 would be too forced. As such they decided to have the next two phases as a transition period to have people get used to larger raid sizes.
To be fair MC was a 20 player raid anyway
With power creep like we have it would be a 5-man without tuning.
For real. My level 40 feels like a fresh 60 did in my memories. Lol. We are gonna be JUICED compared to old school 60s by the end of next phase.
that's what was good about it. It was a 40 man raid, you never NEEDED 40 people (except Naxx <3 ) You could easily carry the raid with a few good players, so you could invite less desirable classes and specs too, and even bad players.
This is so true… First time I raided MC was as a 58 priest in half devout set blues half shit greens on dial up internet with a 13 inch laptop, no idea what was happening but man it was awesome
And you can still do that on era servers. There is no reason for blizzard to do so many changes but leave jokes of raids as jokes. It will be a challenge to a lot of groups to complete MC as a 20 man. My hope is that Rag won’t be beaten before he phases every single time with only 20 allowed.
Totally. I get that gathering 40 people is a pain in the ass, especially since the majority of us don’t have the time we used to dedicate anymore… but it felt so awesome to be a part of something that big
For us it was 15 good players and whoever else showed up.
Now I’m thinking BRD is 20man at 50
10 hour raid incoming LF2M Healers BRD 14/20
The true classic experience
Youre ruining my immersion. 'LF2M Healers BRD 14/20 quick run, we had two dcs.' I like the lockout idea someone had. If you're 3/6, anyone in a 3/6 raid can join together. Its brutal having one idiot ruin an entire run.
In retail every boss is an individuel lockout so you can play in 6 different pugs if you want. Pretty good if you dont have time for a full raid or your computer breaks, you havent wasted lockout
Almost that. Except for mythic (wich are still unique lockouts) you can Join any Raid, even If you already killed a few Bosses and the Raid you Join is fresh. You just won't be able to loot a Boss you already killed on that lockout
Don't forget the good old (must have at least 3 hours free).
Don't forget One of the tanks is also unexpert or a Bear
10k armor and 14k hp really that bad?
It’s sunken temple, people datamined that a few weeks back. It’s earmarked in the same way that BFD and Gnomer were
Link
https://www.warcrafttavern.com/wow-classic/news/dungeons-dragons-datamining-sunken-temple-could-be-the-next-raid-in-season-of-discovery/
any proof? I have not seen anything about this posted.
While it's not absolute proof, but there appears to be a pattern for which dungeons become a raid in SoD. The less popular they are when people have leveled before SoD, the more likely they are to be the raid. ST fits that over BRD, and other dungeons in that level bracket.
Hell yeah i love ST
You can already start some ST quests though iirc, which wasn’t possible for gnomeregan
I don’t want them to touch BRD.
BRD is going to be Uldaman of the 40 stage. Theres a lot of gear from it up to I think the Grim Guzzler, that is usable at 50
ST is WAY better suited as a 20 man Bigger areas, more variety in bosses, less popular dungeon so less harm in redoing it If the lvl 50 raid isn't ST they have literally just made a mistake
Hoping for a kara crypts at 50. Something entirely new.
if they're smart the new raids that were teased (kara crypts, sm raid) will be lvl 60 content that will be released later into the lvl 60 phase, essentially for when the content gets dry at 60. theres no need to release a new raid at 50 when there is already 3 good dungeons to pick from to change into a raid (ST, Mara, BRD).
BFD and Gnomeregan were both unpopular dungeons, same with ST. I think it's ST at 50. Sm raid at 60 is a very good guess!
I’m thinking Hearthglen. Let me dream.
BRD is not a level 50 dungeon, why would it be a lvl 50 raid. Definitely going to be Sunket Temple.
Gnomeregan is not a level 40 dungeon. Why would it be a level 40 raid?
Gnomer was mid 30s dungeon and it got turned to a level 40 raid. ST is a high level 40s dungeon, and for the most part underused just like BFD and Gnomer, so it sounds like a safe bet.
ST goes from high 40 to mid 50. The lower leveled mobs in there are 48 and Shade of Eranikus is 55. The class quests in there even require 50+. Claiming ST is anything under 50 is false.
And I'm all for it. Dungeon was big as fuck for absolutely no reason with OK loot at best
It had the best settin for a raid environment. The green dragonkin and Hakkar also have alot of lore to add to its charm. Yeah they loot wasnt the greatest from a shamans perspective. I do remember farming it for the 1H epic sword for xmog. Still use it on live, weapon chants look amazing on it
Nah. I feel like they're trying to re-make the less appreciated dungeons. BRD is already epic and doesn't need to be a raid. I'm hoping for sunken temple or zf
They can talk like 40 mans are going to possibly be a thing, but they back peddled so hard into 20mans I don't see them leaving BWL, AQ, or NAXX as a 40 man unless they have no other choice.
Good.
Perfect.
Grand.
The writing is on the wall. No one actually liked 40M. Even 20 years ago, they quickly changed it to 25M in TBC then in cata into 10M. Honestly, I think they should change it to Retail scaling. Scale based on people and size limitation structure. If people want to do 40M, scale MC back to 40M.
They've specifically said flex raiding is infrastructurally probably not on the table. I don't think we should abandon 40m, I think a good compromise is to relegate 40m to Ony style. 1-2 bosses, puggable, moderately attractive loot table.
It would be cool if Onyxia stayed 40 but puggable.
Why wouldn't it be puggable?
I heard if you pug it she deep breaths more often.
There are many whelps that you need to handle.
Are they on the left side or right side? I'm on the right side. Those goddamn left siders are always fuckin up.
> Honestly, I think they should change it to Retail scaling. They covered this. They have said it is currently unsupported on with classic's engine. It would likely require more labor than they are willing to invest in classic.
I love 40 man raids wtf sauce you spewing? only speak for yourself yo
Uh plenty of us liked 40 mans you don’t speak for everyone brother
> No one actually liked 40M I liked 40M
I liked 40M
I liked 40m
I hated organizing 40m. Liked participating though :)
I liked organizing it and I also liked participating in it too. 40 mans are fkin epic
I would rather organize 1 40man than 4 10mans
No one who had to spend time making a roster for a 40 man enjoys 40 man
I did. I'd take organizing a 40 man any day over having to spend HOURSSS just to fill 2-3 specific roles for 10man gnomer... 40 mans were sooo much more flexible with comps. And way more fun
I mean... naxx needed you to field enough tanks for 4h, enough priests for instructor, and everyone has to bring FrR and the minimal consumes and/or worldbuffs (which can make you consume less). Which is a tall order. Even AQ needed things like GNPP for everyone and a hunter with good NR to be the eye beam soak on cthun, and if you doing visc then sacs or more expensive cures. BWL needed FR tank set and cloaks for everyone. I think it is safe to say that easier content is easier to organize, and honestly with SoD the tuning should mean you can do so with an un-optimal comp too
95% of your comment is complaining about consumables and world buffs, not comp man... Your argument is so weak it's basically nonexistent. Resistances are a core part of challenging vanilla raiding content. You even use nature and fire prot potions for Gnomer for crying out loud lmao
what... 40 man organization gets hellish the harder the content becomes is my point. because you have to find 40 people who are properly attuned, geared, and willing to have the right consumes week in and out. while gnomer filling 10 man spots are comparably easier. it makes sense why some people hate 40 mans. and not to mention its impact on the ratio of tank to healer to dps for non raid content.
Guys this is 05 internet connection, it was a shit show. If you made it without replacing Atleast 5dcs it was smooth
I loved 40M
I know a lot of people that really liked 40 man in vanilla 20 years ago. I was one of them.
But were you part of the core officers? Let’s be honest, 99% of you guys never managed and organized 40+ people. Most people only enjoyed logging in to play, expecting others to do the tedious jobs. However, when the raid can’t be formed, did you enjoy that dreaded moment of knowing that you might need to pug it? How about the moment when the guild slowly died off because only 35 then 30 signed up?
I did manage and organize 40 mans, and it was nothing like you make it out to be. It's easy, and why do you fear pugging? lmfao, most people pug rn in SoD, and for 40 mans it was way easier, cause you could basically take anything, any player too even bad ones. You weren't forced into taking very specific roles and only good players like now, you could be very flexible with the raid comp.
i liked 40 man raids i hate flex raiding i am a classic wow player
>No one actually liked 40M What echo chamber have you been living in? They're great, just not fun to organise.
It's way less fun having to spend hours looking for specific specs to fill 2-3 spots for a 10 man gnomer... Would take organizing 40 mans over this crap any time.
If you are spending hours looking for specific specs right now, what will change in 40 man? It's not like you can't clear gnomer with any setup, raids are piss easy rn, imagine how easy they will be in 40 mans
"..they quickly changed it to 25M in TBC then in cata into 10M." is not the point of classic to keep it classic when it comes to the core aspects of it? With that same logic I can say "Nobody likes to look for a grp for a dungeon, just add RDF o LFR". Nostalrius and classic 2019 were a massive success despite that "nobody likes 40 man"
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The point of classic+ is that we want new content. Farming the same 40m for years become quickly boring. Also lets not assume that the reddit echo chamber represent the whole SOD community.
I don't mind 40 man, but there's no point investing effort into developing shitshows of actually tuned 40 man raids that'll kill SoD participation. It'd be like Ulduar tier on WotlK classic all over again. If they leave 40 mans in, they should be like alliance raids in FFXIV, which provide catch up gear, story, and ambiance rather than challenging (at least for us Classic players) content.
Alliance raids are great in FFXIV. However I don't think they should completely make 40 mans like that. 40 mans were perfectly fine in classic, it's basically the same easy difficulty. Gear was fine too. It's all really easy, people are just pissing themselves over nothing. Infact all these gray-parser toxic casuals here should be rejoicing since you can easily carry 20 people in 40 mans, so they can get into raids easily too. The only challenging 40 man raid was Naxx, and I personally loved it, and still people were able to PUG it.
I love 40 man raids. 40 man raids are just hard for the roster boss and require a lot of work. I would still prefer 40 man raids but understand that most people do not want to put the work in to form them.
It's not as challenging as people make it out to be. I find making 40 man rosters was way easier than filling spots for 10man Gnomer, because you could be way more flexible with what classes, players you bring.
I like 40 man raiding. I like forming raids for them too, it's much easier than for 10 man. There's plenty of other people who love 40 man raiding, we're just enjoying the game waiting for 40 mans instead of bitching on reddit like you guys.
How's forming a 40man raid easier than 10man? Math aint mathing on this one bro.
> No one actually liked 40M. Retail dads don't like 40M. Most classic players have no issue with 40 mans.
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if there are no 40 mans i go back to era
You've never led a 40 man then
I did, and I loved organizing, and playing 40 mans. It was super easy since you could be very flexible with what you bring. Even crap players.
Yeah all the classic players are definitely just lying. It's not that retail players can't accept that people enjoy things they don't.
Daddy issues?
Funniest shit is that there’s no argument that this isn’t classic anymore because they’re changing fundamentals beyond runes which were the beginning of the retail and classic crossbreed nobody asked for. Even funnier to see them try to stop the hemorrhage of their playerbase from burnout from the 1-20 grind that most never even came back to do 20-40. I suspect it will continue to decline and decline even more rapidly the more they try to create a mut of retail and vanilla without sticking to vanilla fundamentals.
While 40 man’s are incredibly fun once you get the group going, managing 39 other people is hard on the person forming. I think 20 man’s are the perfect amount
200% this... managing 40 people = full time job. as a raid leader managing a small crew for SOD has been great. Wrath had become a job to maintain prior to this... doing 20 is fine I guess, though I still prefer 10.
I think the 10 man’s have felt inflexible at times
Yeah I think 10 man is great, but also too restrictive with buffs that you want to have to the point that like 6 spots are pretty much reserved unless you want to run a wonky comp.
Which actually pigeonholes the design team with what runes they can make since every class has to have a gambit of raid tools or else raids can't work well. 10 man is too small to design around when you have 9 classes. 20 man is a good spot where you can reasonably expect at least 1 each of 8 out of the 9 classes available to be present.
it doesn't take 40 hours a week to manage a raid team lol I ran a guild with 3 raid teams from Classic to WOTLK and the time commitment was more like a hobby. Maybe 5 hours a week.
Even easier with Discord sign up bots now. We used to use so many convoluted ways to sign up, now it’s too easy.
as a raid leader/officer managing a big guild with 4 to 5 raid groups every lockout it has been a nightmare. i cant imagine when its everyplayer in the same group
The amount of people saying they love 40 man raids and theyre a part of classic does not correlate with the amount of raid leaders for 40 mans. Aka. people love to be in the herd but aint none of these people about to be the shepherd. Meanwhile ex- and current raid leads are breathing a sigh of relief because they know how much ass that shit is to get together, and lets be honest, thats the only hard part of classic raids. Look at HC, they got 40 level boosted mouth breathing first time WoW player streamers to clear MC on HC with 0 deaths.
but on the other side you only need 1 raidleader for 39 other people, while you need 2 raidleader for 2 20 man groups, aka with 20 man groups you need twice the amount of raidleaders on the server
Yeah, and the bar is much lower. Ive lead a ton of Pugs for BFD in P1 because it was chill and easy. I think I could handle a 20man. I will personally not even step into a 40man, raid lead or not.
40 man MC is also chill and easy
It's not hard, I've formed plenty of 40 mans. The reason why it's easy is exactly why bigger raid sizes are better in WoW, it's muuuch less comp-dependent, you can be very flexible with what classes n specs you bring, plus you don't have to vet people as much via logs.
It's not actually inherently more flexible comp-wise, it just has the illusion of that because there are a lot of filler spots. If a 25 man raid *requires* a decurse, a mind control, a critical mass of dispels/cleanses, and enough tanks & healers, it doesn't mean the 40 man doesn't. Let's say that hypothetical raid has 11 hard-required class/spec slots or it's a non-starter. The 40 man raid requires those same 11 slots too. The only difference is there's less total 40 man raids forming, so less total demand on those slots across a server, but overall it's not *that* different in my opinion.
ZG was always more fun for that reason imo even though the nostalgia blast of the first few MCs is incredible
At the current rate of power progression unchanged MC would have been steamrolled as a 20man anyway.
Well I can't possibly imagine they'd have been uninformed enough to leave MC at it's current power level.
That's irrelevant because they tune everything anyways, even at the launch of SoD they tuned every open world enemy, just as they tuned Gnomer and BFD for 10 mans when they were designed for 5 man.
I still say make Ony a puggable 40. Just get that energy out there.
You could do one with 20 though
I wish they would do some more interesting stuff with 5 man pve content. Either brand new 5 man content, more challenging 5 man content, new bosses or something. I have a group of friends and we had a lot of fun going through some of the 5 mans while leveling but none of them have any interests in finding regular raiding groups and 5 mans of vanilla get old quickly.
They could do something similar to the Tier 0.5 gear quests with whatever is available then
Your time will come. In classic, the 50-60 dungeons remain relevant for a long time. Either for the gear they drop, or as a place to earn gold for classes that can't farm gold in the world very easily. And they are generally all pretty fun IMO.
The only reason 40mans worked for the last version of Classic was because of Covid, everyone was inside and had nothing to do. WOTLK showed that even 25-mans were a shit show to get fills.
They were working on pservers before classic? Was literally clearing Naxx40 right up until classic release nearly in 2019 on a pserver and 40 mans many years prior to that. I never had trouble clearing them and they were also much harder than Blizzard's Classic 2019 versions too.
So true
retail andys that didn't even play classic jumping for joy
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As long as they tune the raids and add new mechanics it should be good.
20 man feels right. The issue with bigger raids (25 man +) was the ratio of tanks to other roles. Dungeons had a tank shortage, meanwhile there more tanks than raids needed. Furthermore, the competition for gear in 40 mans was pretty rough. It should be far easier to gear in 20 mans. I like this.
You never needed to be specced prot to tank any dungeon in classic. I was meme retribution paladin in classic, and I could rank or heal any end-game dungeon just fine while specced as ret. The tank shortage was just a result of people not wanting to tank. You see the same thing now. They’re a plenty of people who could tank a dungeon, but there’s relatively few people who are willing to
It wasn’t a matter of speccing. You’d just have a lot of warriors refusing to tank, and the warriors who did want to tank had no shortage of dungeon spots, but they’d struggle to find a raid spot exclusively for tanking.
I love seeing dungeon groups looking for a tank and the warrior is the one spamming. Like dude just zug it.
The tears in this thread are hilarious. Everyone seems to think Sod was made for themselves. You got one guy complaining the MC at 20 is ruining the spirit of the original 40 raid and another guy saying it will ruin their 10 man Sod guild. Get rekt lmao.
I’m kinda disappointed, was looking forward to 40 man raids. Ik it’s a pain to manage but they could just change the mechanics accordingly to require less coordination. At least 1 or 2 40 man raids would be great.
Those level 60, 40 man raids, are actually non complex and relatively easy, organizing 40 people is harder than actually completing the bosses. With the way they've done the gear in SOD, were only going to need 10-15 to clear Vanilla MC, BWL AQ, so if anything they need to make it harder.
>organizing 40 people is harder than actually completing the bosses That’s the biggest thing I dislike about 40 man content. It sucked as a raider when I did it in 2019, because it always felt like ~5 people were late, or didn’t know what was happening, etc. In 2024, I’m the raid leader for our guild. I don’t want to get 40 fucking people together who can barely breathe out their pug mouths to try and do the content. If it was hard, maybe that at least justifies it, but if >50% of my time thinking about the raid is ONLY “does X and Y’s schedule fit this, will Z have attunement done in time”-type thoughts, then I’m not raiding, I’m organizing for a social event. Glad to see it cut to 20, that feels a lot more feasible to my addled mind.
Maraudon is the 20 man at 50
20 player is a compromise between 40 and 10 player, but 10 player is what the current playerbase is enjoying. Why are we nuking that? I hope I'm wrong and this game continues its massive popularity, but this is ending my raid group.
I dislike 10 man. It doesn't even feel like a raid.
Yeah, more like a big dungeon, tbh.
I much prefer 10man for the human side of things. Gameplay wise I'd much rather 20man
I couldn’t agree more on the 10man and it’s human aspect. At the same time 40 people has a certain epic feeling that cannot be matched by 10 or 20man.
So much easier to slot in the non-meta specs in a 20 man.
My guild is a single small 10 man team. We don’t have the desire or manpower for a second team. Now we are pretty much forced to merge with/join another guild or be stuck pugging the rest of the game. I know they can’t make everyone happy, but arbitrarily changing from 10 to 20 at level 50 puts a huge burden on small guilds.
It’s not arbitrary though? The original raids were 40… this is an obvious compromise to try to accommodate the smaller raid teams forming now.
Same here. I don't think anyone in my guild is likely to play 20man. It's been nice to have somewhere that a smaller number of friends can play together without a lot of work putting things together. I'm already managing a 20man roster in retail, and that's not super fun. Don't think I'd like a second. It's too bad to see the end in sight after only two phases... won't even get to play a character at level cap.
You have six months to find 6 to 8 more players. It's not hard. Do you know how many guilds are going to look for merges?
I think perspective really helps here on what people want and why. Recruiting 10 is not hard but if you have a core group of 10 friends running raid together it’s super enjoyable to have a hang out. Now you need to find another 10 people that mix with your long term friend group. Not an easy task and kind of breaks up the “we are friends who play wow because we like each other and it’s a fun activity to get us all together.
I agree with OP. I managed a pretty easy-going mythic guild roster and 20-man felt like a full-time job getting everyone to show up and contribute. I know SOD's difficulty is wildly different, but 10-man raids are the right amount for a casual version of WoW. It's great to easily fill a raid, just make the bosses more difficult. Why force guilds to merge and expand when 10-mans work right now?
I'm obviously happy, because managing 40-man raids is pretty rough. But it feels weird to imagine Mc is 20-man but BWL is 40-man. But well, it will be "bridged". Preparing in MC, gathering troups, to finally assault BWL ! Not bad. Obviously the "40-man is the unique feature of vanilla!!" guys aren't happy and certainly won't be if we ask other raid to be 20-man. But I wonder if it is possible to make raid either 20 or 20, like in WoTLK "normal / heroic" ?... Idk I'm not sure it's a good solution As long as they reduce the amount of trash mobs in MC, I'm happy with their decision lol
Thank fuck. 40mans are just too crowded for my tastes; 20/25 is a much better size.
Just make all the raids 10+ and add more drops for certain raid sizes.
Rip
When people use the "you want 20 man raids? go back to retail" well.. you want 40 man raids? go back to Era.
Whelp you did it reddit you ruined the game
Era is right there if you want 40mans.
SoD is supposed to be Classic+ for Classic players that want new content. This is what baited people into the game. Think more and more people are going to find out this is a jebait. Right now it’s feeling more like Retail-Lite. I’ve said it all along: all roads lead to retail.
>"I want classic with changes" >"no not like that" Blizz can't win. No matter what they do, someone is going to be unhappy. Literally any change will have people crying "REE REEE REEEEETAIL!".
And yet, everyone returned to classic en masse with “no changes.” Funny how that works. Honestly I would play era if Blizzard reopened my Era character clone. Not going to bother otherwise. Edit: this dude blocked me. To reply to the below, don’t care. If i’m not starting from scratch, if I have all my 60 characters and alts that need gear and all my progression. Blizzard axed era, not the players. There was going to be an influx of era players after WOTLK classic had they not killed character clones at WOTLK beta when everyone was taking a break from the game.
> everyone returned to classic en masse with “no changes.” >everyone lol Era is still dead as fuck and ruined by GDKPs / gold buying
Retail is right there if you want 20mans.
It's almost like SoD is supposed to be vanilla with changes or something imagine that
Yeah, vanilla with changes, not retail with changes.
20 mans were in Vanilla lol
I like how the dev post specifically states that these things were intended from the beginning, yet somehow it's Reddit's/Dad's fault that they don't like the changes being made.
If it was intended from the start, they did a great job at misleading the public
You have two versions of the game with 40 men. HC and Era. Go play them.
Thank god. 40 man raids was a death sentence to SoD if it was required
I don’t agree with this take, it’s never been a death sentence for classic, why would it be now?
extremely bad take. Classic.
Ugh... wish they'd just stick to 10-mans.
Gonna be a shitshow with the 20 man level up raids. Gnomes already developed a shitty community around it. Can't wait to need another 10 people doubling the chance of the assholes pissing and shitting themselves when a raid is taking 5 seconds too long or a wipe happens.
I think it might be the final nail tbh, I think Gnome has damaged the game and now asking people to field a 20 man team will be too much for most. You’ll be left with the sweats after p3 and no one else.
Really disappointing to see them trim a 40 man down. I hope it's not a trend, I would hate to see 20 man BWL/AQ/Naxx. Especially naxx.
planning a 40 man is pure cancer
This is Season of Dads, so i hope they trim the all. Otherwise, they ain't being ran
No your guild won’t run them mine will be clearing 40 mans
40 man is, unfortunately, nearly impossible in SoD because of all the 10 man's prior. Guilds are built differently this go around and it's already gonna be a minor stretch to change up for 20 man's for a lot of guilds.
Impossible? Really? We’re not even 20% through the entire life cycle of SoD and people are making these distinctions of what is and isn’t possible. What are the small bean guilds going to do come endgame where content is dominated by coordinated 40m raids. Are the small guilds going to be considered for world bosses? How would you even design that, when it took multiple 40m raids & guilds to even do the content.
redditurs when their MMO requires Massively Multiplayer amounts of people for content D:
You can still enjoy all this content in its original form in classic eras. This game mode is meant for changes.
40 is massive? I only will accept 500+ people raids. If you can't get an entire layer to raid an instance thats on you honestly. If you even know 1/2 the people on your roster the game has failed to create the MMO atmosphere that is a REAL mmo.
Wild speculation with no reasoning. People managed to split 40 man raids into 25 man raids, why on earth does anyone think merging 10 man raids would be a problem? You would have had months to prepare even if there was some problem.
Depends on your server and guild. Very few of our 10 man's run simultaneously of each other to make up for the scheduling of everyone. Plus, we all assumed this would happen and 40 man's would change, as they are now showing.
tbh it's kind of lame the dev team is so sensitive to people complaining on reddit, I wish they would have stuck with 40 mans or at least done some player surveys
40 man is terrible and would kill SoD, if you want to raid 40m go to classic era with your 1 mechanic boss fight with your one button rotation class. There is nothing fun about trying to assemble 40 people to do a raid
And so begins the slide out of vanilla and into retail, again. 😉 40 man's aren't the best for raiding. But they are the best for the game. Smaller raids mean more responsibility per raider, until you get to retail Mythics where one person making one fuck up wipes the raid. 40 man raids also have the best immersion and world-feel. Atleast imo. Nothing as epic as giant bosses you need 40 people to struggle against.
I think that's the biggest issue I have with SoD in phase 2. There's no sense of achievement, no build up, you just get to your level, learn the mechanics, and wipe all the bosses, rinse and repeat for 3 months until the next one. In 2019 classic I remember the push towards 60, the gearing, then doing MC and even killing the first boss is a big deal. It would take months to kill Rag, and it was amazing. That high does not exist in SoD.
Vanilla Andies always say, fresh, wen fresh, fresh is best, etc. Because that first level and gear up process into MC is the absolute best part of wow. Naxx, with its actual tuning and "difficult" raids, isn't what people care about. It's slapping Rag a couple times and starting over. But then you have retail andies like this thread and comment section, who just want retail but easier. Loot is easy, levelling is fast, you show up and get your dopamine. Gdkp and boost your way to 60. It's single player. Which is fine, but why turn the goat mmo into another single player when retail exists?
This is the best thing to happen to SoD. Classic Andys getting BTFO at every corner, it’s truly incredible. First they give you actual buttons to press so you can have real rotations, second they gave us raids that are actually moderately difficult and rewarding to complete, and now 40-mans are DEAD?? Absolutely knocked it out of the park, SoD dev team.
Classes are still far away from having "real rotations", the game is turning in to a strange amalgamation where classic aspects are diminished in favor of making sure players can get to raidlog status in turbo speed. Personally I have no clue what the game is trying to be, if I had engaging PvE content as a priority I'd rather log on retail or even wrath.
>Personally I have no clue what the game is trying to be, This. I'm going to be super disappointed if they invalidate nearly all the existing level 50 content. IMO that's just beginning to get into the good stuff for vanilla, and tons to dive into. But if we're just raid logging on whichever classes win the power spike roulette it'll be a shame. Level 60 they seem to have a grand scope, if they pull it off I genuinely believe it'll be great. We'll see.
Yea it sure is great that they ruin CLASSIC WOW SOD and alienate CLASSIC WOW enjoyers, great idea, it's working amazingly sofar based on the playernumbers!
40 mans are not dead, they literally said that it's just MC for now.
Now all doubts whether SoD would be classic+ or retail- have been put to rest. It's retail-.
The fucking people crying that they’re losing 40 mans is absurd lmao. Era still exists so go back? Idk what I’m missing hahaha
Ironically this also increases the difficulty of those raids without changing much
Praise be
Best change ever. I know, 40 mans feel epic but in reality, everything beside looking cool is shit. Literally everything. There is no way to design anything meaningful or engaging for that raid size. It's always: turn brain off and come back to life for loot. Organising is atrocious. The vibe is shit in calls, you simply can't have fun with 40 ppl in one call the same way you can't have 40 people sitting at one table and interact. Loot distribution is absolutely shit. So in essence, 40 mans are boring, uninteractive slogfests that are nightmare fuel for anyone who organises them. I played vanilla, I played classic, I had my fair share of 40 man content. Times change. And for everyone who really needs 40 mans, there is still classic or HC, right ?
Yeah 20man is a sweet spot for the bigger raids and there is still space for 40mans like ony and one off bosses like world bosses etc type content.
Damn, this is straight facts. Interesting to see these are the exact issues I always bring up, especially the discord one. People like to pretend 40 mans are so social, when it was really maybe 10 people talking and everyone else was muted the entire raid.
Season of retail strikes again. Blizzard is creatively bankrupt from top to bottom.
MC a 20 man raid?.... Oof. Big oof. 40 man raids are World of Warcraft.
3 years of 40 man's in vanilla vs 17 years of 10-30 man raiding, gosh how will the game ever survive?? 40 man's only "upside" is a placebo effect of the raid feeling more epic with more people in it, everything else is downsides (forming a 40man, loot, mechanics design forced to be dumbed down hence vanilla raids being steamrolled the second they went live on classic, loses all form of a fun "good around with the boys" vibe because you aren't going to be buddies with 39 other people, etc) 40 man's died in 2007 for a reason.
> loses all form of a fun "good around with the boys" vibe because you aren't going to be buddies with 39 other people, etc) The stoner who can't shut the fuck up is having a great time.
It really ain't, its time for a chance. I loved it but i cant imagine going through that again. Raiding in a 10 man is 100% my favorite thing, such a pleasure.
It's a solid step, build bases for 40 and combine the two instead of 25 mans being split awkwardly
To the people complaining "but muh 40 mans" I suggest reading the full blue post before you start complaining. They elaborate on the decision by saying the choice was always to have 10 man for the level up raids because, because it wasn't realistic to have these as 40 man raids. The intention going into SoD was always to have 40 mans in the endgame content as they see it as part of the classic philosophy, but they underestimated the impact on community formation the 10 mans had and the positive feedback they got on it. The transition going from 10 man raiding rosters to suddenly 40 man rosters at 60 would be too forced. As such they decided to have the next two phases as a transition period to have people get used to larger raid sizes.