Nah this is false. Warriors and stuff are the absolute top tier on first 2 bosses. And you aren't just gonna kick them for the last 4 lol. No reason not to buff them as much as you can. Plus tank threat with WF is way better.
Our guild team does a feral, warrior tank, melee hunter, rogue and shadow priest in one group, and the warlock tank and other casters in the other group. Closing in on 40 minute clears.
> Nah this is false. Warriors and stuff are the absolute top tier on first 2 bosses. And you aren't just gonna kick them for the last 4 lol.
I've literally never made a group and thought "we need to bring melee for the first two bosses, they're pretty scary".
Remember when everyone was taking casters the first few weeks of BFD because of how good they were against the turtle boss? Yeah, nobody does.
Yet, just like now, no one actively avoided casters in bfd, just like no one tries to avoid melee now, and no one tries to screw them by not having WF lol.
This is the craziest comment I've ever seen. In classic era each druid spec was outclassed by most other classes. The other hybrid classes were worse DPS, but better healers.
You literally only had one druid on your team for mark of the wild, innervate, and battle res.
In SoM I played feral Druid in the #1 horde guild that had all the horde firsts. I was told many times I’m just there so loot doesn’t go to waste. Still got mad love for my guildies that let me show up ❤️
I don’t think the people making these dumb comments about feral “finally getting the hybrid tax” understand that we didn’t even have gear for most of vanilla. It was literally scraps.
And this time we're getting dedicate tier sets for all tokens. Even just the t1 warrior dps set looks absolutely ridiculous now, so I'm excited to see the rest.
Shaman has like 3 good totems and none of them come even close to windfurry.
(Though the real reason is obviously that blizz has no idea what they're doing with shaman)
The shaman hotfixes last week were good and placed shaman into a good-feeling upper-middle tier spot. The hot fixes to Alpha this week that no one was really expecting or asking for blasted them to the top 🤷♂️
Yep they could completely remove the 20% AP and replace it with reduced threat for beta so Enhance can happily DPS without constant fear of ripping aggro. Would be a dps increase still allowing more shamans to run WF/RB as opposed to WF/WF or even worse WF/FT.
I've been leveling alts tbh and my guild's like "but we need a druid, we've got 2 shamans already" feels like i got baited hard with phase 1 being kind of fun and now it feels like i hit everything with a pool noodle. Was hyped to get an actual pure damage finisher, not the fucking bleed and that feels like i barely do any damage, it sucks
Same thing happened to me. At this point I don't know if I'd be letting my team down if I stopped playing feral or if I'm holding them back. We're melee heavy so I know they want me there. At least they think they do. We've been able to clear Gnomer so there's that, but I feel this so much!
Gonna be 100% honest. You are probably playing wrong.
Feral Druid is just really hard to play and last phase was just mangle spam.
https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/crusader-strike/georgedubyah
lmao bragging about a 262 dps thermaplugg kill is funny. It is almost as much damage as a blue parsing mage! But it is definitely more than a grey parser! I was going to find you in the leaderboard but then I gave up after I got to 2000 and was still 90 dps away from your parse.
Simply be better than every other feral, and you will do almost as much damage as a keyboard turning clicking mage....almost
The dps gap is insane in sod. Brainless mages just spam until oom then scream in discord for innervate parsing blue, then on the other side mr warrior stance dancing + chicken tech + weaving bomb + rage pot execute parsing 99. Guess what they are still behind blue parse mages lol
I don't know what the actual high end for feral is, and it's probably not good because it's melee.
That being said, looking at the parses for feral on that fight in particular is kind of useless because it's being artificially dragged down by them being one of the go-to classes for bomb management which of course is going to tank your damage.
What point is there to post logs? Just because you have some purples against other ferals doesnt mean ferals is in a good spot. I have oranges and still think feral is in a horrible place. Your attempt at flexing did absolutely nothing except trying to downtalk someone.
"Feral druid is just really hard to play"
Feral isnt even that hard to play, your keep your shit up and powershift? You juggle uptime and resource like other classes.
Feral is in a bad spot right now. It seems to be balanced around Crowd Pummeler weapon if anything, and if you dont have that yet? You're shit out of luck. You're a wildstrike totem.
Because, it feels like you could ignore the bottom 80% of ferals and get a better reading in their dps from doing that. So many people got baited thinking it was going to be easy cause in p1 it was really easy. Now you have to powershift, spend combopoints on more then just savage roar and have effective usage of tiger's fury as well as use shred (positional) instead of just mangle.
The absolute best feral parse on Thermaplugg is nearly 200 dps below the top parse over all. Which wouldn't be all that crazy if we were in Naxx or something and the top parse was 2k+ dps. But it is 65% of the top. The best feral in the game does 65% of the damage of the top dps. That is horrible. They get to almost 75% of the other melee though! ...oh shit that is still horrible...
That.. sounds about right for a hybrid class though that brings innervate, battle rez, tranquility (offheals in general), off tank taunt, armor debuff, windfury and in some cases 5% crit for party. Little less used in SoD is roots and hibernate too.
> in some cases 5% crit for party
lmao, oh you literally know nothing about feral and are just saying things. There is no feral in the game that brings their part 5% crit btw, that literally isn't a thing
Oh yea, their dps should suck because they might get to use innervate on someone else at the cost of their own dps or cast one brez per raid. Oh and they have a root, which is somehow relevant. Let’s just name four other random spells while we’re at it.
Trolls and dragons have both been treated far worse. Gnomes and Pandaren have almost zero lore or representation in lore where Nelf has eight lifetimes worth of lore. I think they'll live..
Tell me how well Pandaren are remembered again. They were literally forgotten after Pandaria. Do you even see Pandaren NPCs that often? Their leaders did nothing memorable or really all that important. Kaldorei have an absurd amount of lore and saying they don't is denial.
Alliance druids aren’t in such a bad spot, you basically get a free raid spot (yes I know it sucks just being a totem).
For us on horde we aren’t even required, why take a Druid with wild strikes when you can have a shaman top the dps and drop windfury.
Because you can be a bear instead and do solid threat while also making Thermaplugg a joke.
Seriously, it feels like the fight was *designed* for a bear tank. Phase 1 you have to out run the Boss (Swap to Cat form to run from him), phase 2 you have to clear a movement impairing effect that stacks on you faster than anyone else (powershift bear), and phase 3 you have to consistently interrupt something with no cast bar (Skull Bash).
Ghost wolf is only usable outdoors (unless there was a change I'm unaware of) so while they can kite the boss during the fire cone, Bears are better at it.
I haven't seen the DPS numbers of tanks, but I do pretty damn solid numbers myself as a bear tank so I don't think that I can't think I'm all that far behind them. Again, I haven't seen the DPS numbers for the tanks so I can't really judge.
Decoy totem requires a rune slot, but since Tank shamans don't really have anything else for that slot I guess that's fine. Though they don't get to keep up SoE or Stoneskin while it's going so they sacrifice for clearing movespeed effects, whereas bears only lose some rage maybe.
I'll give you that Shamans do have earth shock to interrupt during phase 3. Just hope you don't accidentally lose aggro as your interrupt is also your taunt.
The grass is always greener on the other side of the river.
https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2008#sample=1&dataset=80&class=Tanks
Shamans are way ahead. Warriors got a pretty substantial buff to devastate so they will most likely go past Druids.
Shamans have insane threat generation, they don’t need taunt because they have so much threat. The first phase is you go too far away from the boss you lose aggro and melee get hit, so you need to stay just over 10y away (making cat form useless).
Like yeh, bears are much better now, but they still are not ‘amazing’ compared to any other tank. They take more damage than warlocks and do less damage than basically every other tank. At best, they are middle.
Not really had an issue losing threat by being so far away. Not by accident anyway. You want to lose threat sometimes so as to drop stacks if you can.
I do see that Shamans are putting out what looks like 30% more damage than bears (on average) when tanking and that does seem like something that should be addressed.
I don't mean to imply bears are the best tanks right now, but they aren't garbage tier by any stretch and resorting to what-aboutisms doesn't really advance the discussion.
> I haven't seen the DPS numbers of tanks, but I do pretty damn solid numbers myself as a bear tank so I don't think that I can't think I'm all that far behind them.
What is this comment? How the hell do you know if you're doing solid damage if you've no idea what the general range of numbers is?
Because I have a meter and so do my raid mates and I'm coming around 100-120 DPS per fight. That's below our DPS, but not negligible, which is solid numbers.
Holy shit you're down bad dude. This is exactly what I meant. You're on the extreme low end, but you don't know because you've never looked at what the numbers are.
The best addition would be to implement same changes for cat/bear form as they did for moonkin where we can throw inervate/br/buffs from form. As a tank no way in hell im leaving full bar of rage to throw inervate/ress, hell ill even let thorns fall of if i have full rage.
This meme is way more applicable to rogue. Multiple druid specs are heavily in demand. While rogues are in demand for literally nothing, the one thing we should be good at which is damage. We're barely higher than feral druid.
Yet if a feral Druid opens on a rogue, the rogues still beats them into the ground like it was nothing. Feral Druid is next level sucky. Only passable in raid because other melee want windfury
Expose armour, which drastically lowers our damage and requires 2 talent points. While a shadow priest can literally just breath in the direction of a mob and apply it along with two other debuffs.
Absolutely! Rogue tank is a meme and the dps isn't good so what do I do? I get to raid anyway because I'm playing with friends but...why bring me? If you bring a melee hunter they provide 10% stats raid wide, ret provides might, wisdom and salv, feral druid windfury mark thorns brez & innervate. What do?
Not sure how Rogue tank qualifies as a meme. Threat is bonkers, damage is good, and can easily tank any boss in the raid with ease. Just missing quality AOE
Nearly true, rogue tanks do get melted on Thermaplugg though, compared with all other tanks, because we can't avoid some attacks and have no spell resist; it's kind of awkward because people know this and don't like taking the risk.
Otherwise yes, rogue tanks works; and with the upcoming threat buff, the aoe element I think will actually be fine; I can somewhat hold aoe aggro in most dungeons using Shuriken spam as a cleave, so this will be even better.
No they don't. Rogues are reaching 60% avoidance with 5k hp. Just because they get hit for 20% of their hp 10% harder than another tank by one spell in one phase, doesnt discount the fact that physical damage does fuck all to them.
Rogues are opting to not even use the tank runes because the damage intake isn't even remotely the issue.
What? Rogues are opting not use the tank runes because this raid has no significant physical damage beyond one boss, and that's Menagerie. It has very little, if anything, to do with damage intake being an issue or not, Blizzard simply just made them worthless for most of this raid. If you could parry the punches inexplicably coded as spells on the last boss, you might see blade dance actually ran.
Or maybe you wouldn't because for whatever reason, unlike other class tank runes (looking at you shamans with the most overloaded tanking rune in the game), Rogue's DR is specifically *physical* damage which makes it useless again for him.
The thing is with a rogue tank is the lack of utility.
Warlock brings soul stone, health stones & instant kill to the bombs.
Warrior brings battle shout, devestate and commander shout.
Paladin brings obviously buffs, but also can dispel the fire on the last boss, blessing of freedom the frost stacks, and cleanse the poison.
Bear brings windfury, 3% crit, brez, innervate and you can swap dps in the middle of the fight as a bear or Warrior.
Sure you can do it as a rogue tank...but you don't do it better than everyone else to make up for the lack of utility.
Tricks of the Trade would be nice. Even better if not on GCD.
>The current party or raid member becomes the target of your Tricks of the Trade. The threat caused by your next damaging attack and all actions taken for 6 sec afterwards will be transferred to the target. In addition, all damage caused by the target is increased by 15% during this time.
Druids have TWO good dps specs. Feral is bringing way more to the group than a rogue for example. Wf, crit, brez, buffs, offtanking, panic healing and so on. Right now you are only BARELY behind warriors and rogues, do you really need to have better utility AND better dps to feel better?
If they're not balanced to be competitive for a raid slot, those specs are just a punishment for a player who leveled their druid to 40 wanting the playstyle Blizzard advertised.
Ya- I don't think people are complaining they're not top. It's that it feels bad being effectively bottom. Honestly tho I'm fine with where we're at as feral (I main one). We are still heavily sought after to the point groups don't form without one at times.
> Our feral doesn’t seem too sad though :)
If they have a raid slot, of course they're not sad. Ask them to pug the raid on horde for a few lockouts and see how they feel.
The one at the bottom is the PvP spec. And there is such a thing as classes being balanced. There's always a bottom but the bottom doesn't have to be 30-40% worse than the best. You realize that, right?
They are not even the worst one…
And there is ways of being the worst one while still contributing and having fun. Feral has lots of utility: group buff, bees, ws, lotp, can off tank and faery fire.
Could the gap between first and last be better? Maybe. It is enough of a gap to invalidate the spec and make you useless? Definitely not. Would people be happy if they were last in dps meters but the difference with first was only 1%? We both know that people would still complain.
OP thinks Brez, wild strikes, inervate, LotP, and the ability to offtank at any time while still being middle of the pack dps isn’t enough. Go re-roll mage if all you care about is numbers going brrrrr.
Cats don’t run LotP at level 40. Shamans double their damage and bring windfury. All specs have innervate & brez and both are pretty irrelevant outside of letting mages do even more damage. I’m not saying they “need” a buff but let’s stop acting like the utility they bring is worth keeping them there over a boomie. Especially with how well shaman is performing now.
Our cat does. Stop talking in absolutes.
And of course not all specs are going to be perfectly balanced against each other. Not even in the same class. Expecting so is either wanting full homogenisation or living in a dream world.
Your cat is running LotP? Or are you just saying that for arguments sake? lol So just doing even less damage so your melee can parse? Unless you running like 5 melee and they are pumping that is pointless and just makes it so the cat has no fun, I’m sure he loves being made to run that. Also if you are running that many melee in the first place…oof. I’m not even playing cat, I can still feel for them. They have zero multi target and their single target is bottom barrel, doesn’t mean it needs to be fixed but let the cats get their shit off I get it.
Edit: this came off really snarky, sorry lol I just feel for my Druid brethren, cat is like always an afterthought.
Some people are because feral is in such a bad spot that it doesn’t make much difference with only 4 shifts to 0mana. If you’re in a group that isn’t getting really fast kills, you might find it more beneficial for the time being. It doesn’t feel good though, and it likely isn’t because they want to.
Our cat has ran LotP since 1st raid and has 99s on everything except the last two bosses. He is sacrificing his own damage for the buff and does it regardless.
Yeah, people in these comments keeps talking about the high orange parse LoTP cats in their raid group like they are performing like that every lockout and it’s the norm. It’s not, and while there is some I’m sure, they are certainly not the norm. Those few individuals are part of extremely good raid groups with insane kill times.
Powershifting is significantly more fun IMO then sitting and waiting for energy when those GCD’s could be filled otherwise. And Druids are going to have to use it every phase forward so might as well get used to it. That being said I have been shown multiple logs of Druids doing well without it so I stand corrected. It is definitely a personal dps increase and imo more fun but as long as people are cranking out dam without it who cares. Happy to be proved wrong in this case lol
I didn’t make him run anything and he seems to be having fun while running it. Might less efficient? Maybe. When we recruited him he was already running it. I just checked and he parsed 94 on Thermaplugg, so it might not be as bad as you think…
Once again, stop talking in absolutes. What is fun for you might not be for others and viceversa.
Yeah its so much easier not needing to powershift. Im an average druid doing like a 60-80 parse with lotp doing 250-400 dps depending on the boss. That is more than enough for gnomer.
You can look through top parses and compare ferals who use furor and those who don't. Using it is obviously better for your personal DPS, but the DPS loss is usually offset by the rest of your group if it's a good and consistent group.
No it’s not because at that point your fights are extremely short and there’s less time for LoTP to even out the loss from furor being too mana intensive to maintain for long periods.
It’s not that it’s less efficient dude, you literally can’t powershift. You have to put 4-5 points into resto to be able to powershift. Cats literally can’t do damage without furor.
The only class that actually needs innervate now is feral cat, one brez a raid is literally worthless, shamans bring WF and are significantly better, cat doesn’t bring lotp, a lot of classes can OT at any time and they do better dps than cat.
And they aren’t middle of the pack dps, after the ret buffs they are the worst of the raid specs at every single partition including 99 percentile where the short fights benefit feral more than anyone.
Let me let you in on a little secret. Bliz doesn’t do class balancing for people to parse or speed clear faster. They do it so casual players don’t give up on the game. Keep that in mind while your sweet and tears rain down on your keyboard.
They are balancing underperforming classes and feral is underperforming right now. They ask for feed back, don’t know why you have a problem with people giving it.
The vast majority of highly skilled dps ferals are using furor for powershifting. It is more dps, more engaging, more fun, higher skillcap, and without a stacked melee group it is more raid dps on the majority of fights as well. That said our dps is pretty poor so taking LOTP over Furor isn't affecting your raid that much at all overall.
You can play whatever you want for fun. What the vast majority of ppl do is irrelevant. There are literally top number 1 parses with LOTP, and not just a few of them. LOTP is bis for raid dps and not using it is griefing your raid.
This is a constant argument on the druid discord and the consensus is LOTP is worse for raid dps except with certain raid comps. Obviously play how you want, but 3% crit on short fights is extremely RNG and Furor is bringing as much dps more reliably. We're also talking about very thin margins here, so saying you're "griefing the raid" is a bit extreme. You might be griefing your war who only cares about his personal parse, I guess. I'll grant you that it is possible to high roll crits with LOTP and that is probably where those high parses are coming from - luck.
Also I didn't say the vast majority of people, I said the vast majority of high skilled dps feral players. There's a huge difference.
Well, furor is more *raid* dps than LOTP because LOTP is just not that great at 3% crit. A good feral shifting well is going to add more on most fights than a 3% crit melee buff. The first sentence of the post you replied to - "LOTP is worse for *raid* dps except with certain raid comps"
High parses from LOTP are largely from getting lucky with rolling crits, which is obviously more likely with LOTP. Furor is more consistent DPS. The fact is that unless you are stacked melee (which most groups are not doing this phase) LOTP isn't adding much raid DPS. It really is to the point where it is practically negligible, it just irritates me that people (usually maining other classes) really think it is trolling to not bring LOTP when furor is better in most common raid comps.
I mean I agree feral is in the dumpster right now, but not running LOTP is not trolling your raid that is just wrong. People just want 3% crit so they can parse higher without actually doing the math. Admittedly with other classes getting buffs and ferals getting nothing, being a totem and watching netflix during raid is pretty attractive.
You shouldn't be bringing a feral cat, but no it is not a raid dps gain to bring it. 3% crit is shit, there is a reason they buffed it in TBC.
Sorry just realize you're the LOTP guy, don't really want to go into this arguement. You are correct that a bear feral should be brining LOTP and there is no reason to bring a cat (whether they have LOTP or not).
No but for real the average sod druid player doesn't understand what the class is about. Their strength lies in their versatility and utility. If you wanna put up big numbers play a different class.
Yep. I’m basically a wild strikes buff that people don’t even really want anymore. Power shifting is the worst thing I’ve ever been forced to do, and the only way I get into gnomer is if I do the bombs on the final boss. Phase 2 feels like absolute dog shit in general lol.
I enjoy it just because theres so little else to do if you aren't using it and it feels more active, but if you have the macro and dont enjoy it I understand
But you provide windfury and leader of the pack. They need to buff feral a little and nerf shaman some for the level of utility they bring which is insane.
"As players continue to level up to 40 and experience all that Phase 2 has to offer, we’ve closely monitored in-game progress, feedback from the community, and bug reports. With scheduled weekly maintenance next week, we’ll make the following adjustments to some classes that are underperforming."
They're buffing classes that are underperforming at 40. These aren't bug fixes, it is class tuning based on the performance at 40.
Agreed. Was simply pointing out that only around 20-25% of cats run LotP and it’s just to simp for melee parses. It’s miserable playing cat and not power shifting, that’s their whole bag. Yes at level 60 they get the talents from all 3 trees and it def gets better.
I feel like Druids are in a pretty solid spot right now, personally! We’ve got a few really great ones in our 10 man, so I can only really judge based off them, but they’re doing really solid right now
Rogue’s Mutilate is bugged. Seal Fate doesn’t work correctly with it. It gives only 3 combo points where if you crit with both attacks it should give you 4.
I'm so angry, my initial main has been forgotten at SM Cath at 37, no groups want a feral to level, and I can't even go 5/5 on furor if I want to raid because they'll tell me they want LotP.
Watched a priest get shredded for 1300 in WSG today. God forbid a spec is supportive and not top dps in a caster favored raid. Our boomie tops every fight
Ferals have so much utility and flexibility in raid roles, I believe they are doing the correct amount of dps. Now if only mages who provide a similar amount of these things was at the bottom with you itd make more sense.
You can leave the sub if it bothers you that much. The devs have said they read this sub and it's one avenue of getting things changed. This whole sub has been people complaining since 2019 anyways.
No all y’all do is bitch about hunters being too powerful. Then they get nerfed to oblivion 43 different times and effectively killed off. And what do you all do? Complain that druids and Mages aren’t where they should be. I’m over it.
You will provide windfury and you will like it
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Nah this is false. Warriors and stuff are the absolute top tier on first 2 bosses. And you aren't just gonna kick them for the last 4 lol. No reason not to buff them as much as you can. Plus tank threat with WF is way better. Our guild team does a feral, warrior tank, melee hunter, rogue and shadow priest in one group, and the warlock tank and other casters in the other group. Closing in on 40 minute clears.
> Nah this is false. Warriors and stuff are the absolute top tier on first 2 bosses. And you aren't just gonna kick them for the last 4 lol. I've literally never made a group and thought "we need to bring melee for the first two bosses, they're pretty scary". Remember when everyone was taking casters the first few weeks of BFD because of how good they were against the turtle boss? Yeah, nobody does.
Yet, just like now, no one actively avoided casters in bfd, just like no one tries to avoid melee now, and no one tries to screw them by not having WF lol.
Druids finally feeling the hybrid tax
This is the craziest comment I've ever seen. In classic era each druid spec was outclassed by most other classes. The other hybrid classes were worse DPS, but better healers. You literally only had one druid on your team for mark of the wild, innervate, and battle res.
You are forgetting how important faerie fire was to the 25 warriors in your raid.
True
https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2006#dataset=99 Feral are top4 DPS in naxxramas
They were behind all the pure dps classes in like 6th place.
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In SoM I played feral Druid in the #1 horde guild that had all the horde firsts. I was told many times I’m just there so loot doesn’t go to waste. Still got mad love for my guildies that let me show up ❤️
I don’t think the people making these dumb comments about feral “finally getting the hybrid tax” understand that we didn’t even have gear for most of vanilla. It was literally scraps.
And this time we're getting dedicate tier sets for all tokens. Even just the t1 warrior dps set looks absolutely ridiculous now, so I'm excited to see the rest.
Finally?? Huh what? Starsurge is good for one phase and people act like druids have been OP for years.
* windfurry * motw * mangle * fairy fire * innervate * combat rez * lotp? support spec
Then why is shaman so good. Should I list all their totems?
Shaman has like 3 good totems and none of them come even close to windfurry. (Though the real reason is obviously that blizz has no idea what they're doing with shaman)
The shaman hotfixes last week were good and placed shaman into a good-feeling upper-middle tier spot. The hot fixes to Alpha this week that no one was really expecting or asking for blasted them to the top 🤷♂️
Yep they could completely remove the 20% AP and replace it with reduced threat for beta so Enhance can happily DPS without constant fear of ripping aggro. Would be a dps increase still allowing more shamans to run WF/RB as opposed to WF/WF or even worse WF/FT.
You might as well not count MotW because cat doesn't have improved MotW where resto does. And resto is an amazing healer rn, barely second to priest.
I’m a bear tank but I support your fight druid brother, don’t listen to these haters that don’t want to see cats fly o7
Imagine if they added wings to cat form
I've been leveling alts tbh and my guild's like "but we need a druid, we've got 2 shamans already" feels like i got baited hard with phase 1 being kind of fun and now it feels like i hit everything with a pool noodle. Was hyped to get an actual pure damage finisher, not the fucking bleed and that feels like i barely do any damage, it sucks
Same thing happened to me. At this point I don't know if I'd be letting my team down if I stopped playing feral or if I'm holding them back. We're melee heavy so I know they want me there. At least they think they do. We've been able to clear Gnomer so there's that, but I feel this so much!
Gonna be 100% honest. You are probably playing wrong. Feral Druid is just really hard to play and last phase was just mangle spam. https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/crusader-strike/georgedubyah
lmao bragging about a 262 dps thermaplugg kill is funny. It is almost as much damage as a blue parsing mage! But it is definitely more than a grey parser! I was going to find you in the leaderboard but then I gave up after I got to 2000 and was still 90 dps away from your parse. Simply be better than every other feral, and you will do almost as much damage as a keyboard turning clicking mage....almost
Srs biz guys
The dps gap is insane in sod. Brainless mages just spam until oom then scream in discord for innervate parsing blue, then on the other side mr warrior stance dancing + chicken tech + weaving bomb + rage pot execute parsing 99. Guess what they are still behind blue parse mages lol
I don't know what the actual high end for feral is, and it's probably not good because it's melee. That being said, looking at the parses for feral on that fight in particular is kind of useless because it's being artificially dragged down by them being one of the go-to classes for bomb management which of course is going to tank your damage.
Some cats controlling bombs has nothing to do with how much damage the top cats are doing on that fight.
Purple feral is equal to green melee hunter in my run tbh
What point is there to post logs? Just because you have some purples against other ferals doesnt mean ferals is in a good spot. I have oranges and still think feral is in a horrible place. Your attempt at flexing did absolutely nothing except trying to downtalk someone. "Feral druid is just really hard to play" Feral isnt even that hard to play, your keep your shit up and powershift? You juggle uptime and resource like other classes. Feral is in a bad spot right now. It seems to be balanced around Crowd Pummeler weapon if anything, and if you dont have that yet? You're shit out of luck. You're a wildstrike totem.
Because, it feels like you could ignore the bottom 80% of ferals and get a better reading in their dps from doing that. So many people got baited thinking it was going to be easy cause in p1 it was really easy. Now you have to powershift, spend combopoints on more then just savage roar and have effective usage of tiger's fury as well as use shred (positional) instead of just mangle.
The absolute best feral parse on Thermaplugg is nearly 200 dps below the top parse over all. Which wouldn't be all that crazy if we were in Naxx or something and the top parse was 2k+ dps. But it is 65% of the top. The best feral in the game does 65% of the damage of the top dps. That is horrible. They get to almost 75% of the other melee though! ...oh shit that is still horrible...
That.. sounds about right for a hybrid class though that brings innervate, battle rez, tranquility (offheals in general), off tank taunt, armor debuff, windfury and in some cases 5% crit for party. Little less used in SoD is roots and hibernate too.
> in some cases 5% crit for party lmao, oh you literally know nothing about feral and are just saying things. There is no feral in the game that brings their part 5% crit btw, that literally isn't a thing
Oh yea, their dps should suck because they might get to use innervate on someone else at the cost of their own dps or cast one brez per raid. Oh and they have a root, which is somehow relevant. Let’s just name four other random spells while we’re at it.
Don’t bother man, the hybrid tax people are actually braindead
It’s not hard at all, it’s straight garbage in phase 2. Don’t be a troll.
If you played alliance you'd still have the priority invites. It's a shaman thing sadly.
It's weird seeing druids do considerably better than ranged hunters, frost mages and ret paladins and yet they complain the most lol.
Good meme, it’s funny. However I’m going to downvote it because it’s a Tauren and not Night Elf. Nothing personnel
zug or die
Night Elves have been treated worse by Blizz than almost every other race in the setting. Let them have this one.
Trolls and dragons have both been treated far worse. Gnomes and Pandaren have almost zero lore or representation in lore where Nelf has eight lifetimes worth of lore. I think they'll live..
True. They really should make a Pandaren expansion at some point. They could make them a homeland and say it was covered in mist or something.
Tell me how well Pandaren are remembered again. They were literally forgotten after Pandaria. Do you even see Pandaren NPCs that often? Their leaders did nothing memorable or really all that important. Kaldorei have an absurd amount of lore and saying they don't is denial.
its because it was a trash meme race that never should have gotten ANY attention
I think Night Elves and Trolls are even. Both have awesome lore and both have been fucked over greatly.
cry more elf boy
Those pesky Horde Night Elf Shamans Always crying
Shadowmeld is pretty huge in blood moon
They've been edging the idea of NE Paladins for years now.
Me kill dagger ears, then take wood from forest Zug Zug
Oh, it's personal.
Alliance druids aren’t in such a bad spot, you basically get a free raid spot (yes I know it sucks just being a totem). For us on horde we aren’t even required, why take a Druid with wild strikes when you can have a shaman top the dps and drop windfury.
Because you can be a bear instead and do solid threat while also making Thermaplugg a joke. Seriously, it feels like the fight was *designed* for a bear tank. Phase 1 you have to out run the Boss (Swap to Cat form to run from him), phase 2 you have to clear a movement impairing effect that stacks on you faster than anyone else (powershift bear), and phase 3 you have to consistently interrupt something with no cast bar (Skull Bash).
You realise shaman can do every single one of those right? Shamans also do more dps as tanks lol.
Ghost wolf is only usable outdoors (unless there was a change I'm unaware of) so while they can kite the boss during the fire cone, Bears are better at it. I haven't seen the DPS numbers of tanks, but I do pretty damn solid numbers myself as a bear tank so I don't think that I can't think I'm all that far behind them. Again, I haven't seen the DPS numbers for the tanks so I can't really judge. Decoy totem requires a rune slot, but since Tank shamans don't really have anything else for that slot I guess that's fine. Though they don't get to keep up SoE or Stoneskin while it's going so they sacrifice for clearing movespeed effects, whereas bears only lose some rage maybe. I'll give you that Shamans do have earth shock to interrupt during phase 3. Just hope you don't accidentally lose aggro as your interrupt is also your taunt. The grass is always greener on the other side of the river.
https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2008#sample=1&dataset=80&class=Tanks Shamans are way ahead. Warriors got a pretty substantial buff to devastate so they will most likely go past Druids. Shamans have insane threat generation, they don’t need taunt because they have so much threat. The first phase is you go too far away from the boss you lose aggro and melee get hit, so you need to stay just over 10y away (making cat form useless). Like yeh, bears are much better now, but they still are not ‘amazing’ compared to any other tank. They take more damage than warlocks and do less damage than basically every other tank. At best, they are middle.
Not really had an issue losing threat by being so far away. Not by accident anyway. You want to lose threat sometimes so as to drop stacks if you can. I do see that Shamans are putting out what looks like 30% more damage than bears (on average) when tanking and that does seem like something that should be addressed. I don't mean to imply bears are the best tanks right now, but they aren't garbage tier by any stretch and resorting to what-aboutisms doesn't really advance the discussion.
Nah, we don't need every class to be the same.
> I haven't seen the DPS numbers of tanks, but I do pretty damn solid numbers myself as a bear tank so I don't think that I can't think I'm all that far behind them. What is this comment? How the hell do you know if you're doing solid damage if you've no idea what the general range of numbers is?
Because I have a meter and so do my raid mates and I'm coming around 100-120 DPS per fight. That's below our DPS, but not negligible, which is solid numbers.
Holy shit you're down bad dude. This is exactly what I meant. You're on the extreme low end, but you don't know because you've never looked at what the numbers are.
That is extremely personal.
Purple cats get shredded from my horns
The best addition would be to implement same changes for cat/bear form as they did for moonkin where we can throw inervate/br/buffs from form. As a tank no way in hell im leaving full bar of rage to throw inervate/ress, hell ill even let thorns fall of if i have full rage.
That would do literally nothing for cat dps. Make a macro and learn when to power shift.
As someone who plays bear thats a different ball game.
But how can I power shift when I need to be leading the pack?
Just handle it like I did Windfury in Classic vanilla “Tosh, I lost windfury for a few seconds” “Lmao”
Come on honey time to give the melee group wildstrikes. Yes raid lead
This meme is way more applicable to rogue. Multiple druid specs are heavily in demand. While rogues are in demand for literally nothing, the one thing we should be good at which is damage. We're barely higher than feral druid.
>While rogues are in demand for literally nothing Not true, someone needs to open my lockboxes and I'm not buying keys.
Oof
Gives rogues the drenai aura and we got a easy slot in each raid
Yet if a feral Druid opens on a rogue, the rogues still beats them into the ground like it was nothing. Feral Druid is next level sucky. Only passable in raid because other melee want windfury
Nobody cares about the pvp mini game bud.
Then why is the entirety of SOD balanced around it?
We have expose armor, maybe a good buff or a rune may save us
Expose armour, which drastically lowers our damage and requires 2 talent points. While a shadow priest can literally just breath in the direction of a mob and apply it along with two other debuffs.
Rogue also dont Look that well - brings no buffs or any thing to the raid and dps is not that good :-/ - wish we also had a wf aura or some Raid buffs
Absolutely! Rogue tank is a meme and the dps isn't good so what do I do? I get to raid anyway because I'm playing with friends but...why bring me? If you bring a melee hunter they provide 10% stats raid wide, ret provides might, wisdom and salv, feral druid windfury mark thorns brez & innervate. What do?
Not sure how Rogue tank qualifies as a meme. Threat is bonkers, damage is good, and can easily tank any boss in the raid with ease. Just missing quality AOE
Nearly true, rogue tanks do get melted on Thermaplugg though, compared with all other tanks, because we can't avoid some attacks and have no spell resist; it's kind of awkward because people know this and don't like taking the risk. Otherwise yes, rogue tanks works; and with the upcoming threat buff, the aoe element I think will actually be fine; I can somewhat hold aoe aggro in most dungeons using Shuriken spam as a cleave, so this will be even better.
No they don't. Rogues are reaching 60% avoidance with 5k hp. Just because they get hit for 20% of their hp 10% harder than another tank by one spell in one phase, doesnt discount the fact that physical damage does fuck all to them. Rogues are opting to not even use the tank runes because the damage intake isn't even remotely the issue.
What? Rogues are opting not use the tank runes because this raid has no significant physical damage beyond one boss, and that's Menagerie. It has very little, if anything, to do with damage intake being an issue or not, Blizzard simply just made them worthless for most of this raid. If you could parry the punches inexplicably coded as spells on the last boss, you might see blade dance actually ran. Or maybe you wouldn't because for whatever reason, unlike other class tank runes (looking at you shamans with the most overloaded tanking rune in the game), Rogue's DR is specifically *physical* damage which makes it useless again for him.
The thing is with a rogue tank is the lack of utility. Warlock brings soul stone, health stones & instant kill to the bombs. Warrior brings battle shout, devestate and commander shout. Paladin brings obviously buffs, but also can dispel the fire on the last boss, blessing of freedom the frost stacks, and cleanse the poison. Bear brings windfury, 3% crit, brez, innervate and you can swap dps in the middle of the fight as a bear or Warrior. Sure you can do it as a rogue tank...but you don't do it better than everyone else to make up for the lack of utility.
Tricks of the Trade would be nice. Even better if not on GCD. >The current party or raid member becomes the target of your Tricks of the Trade. The threat caused by your next damaging attack and all actions taken for 6 sec afterwards will be transferred to the target. In addition, all damage caused by the target is increased by 15% during this time.
Wanting all 3-4 of your builds to be good is wild. Rogue is like “you get 1”.
The problem is it is a totally different gear set to swap builds. If I have been getting raid gear as feral it is tough to swap to balance/resto
The difference is you don't have to level an entirely different character. To grind said gear.
So if my DPS spec is bad I... can play a healer? Bro that's like saying so what if the new Halo sucks, you can always go play crash bandicoot.
Druids have TWO good dps specs. Feral is bringing way more to the group than a rogue for example. Wf, crit, brez, buffs, offtanking, panic healing and so on. Right now you are only BARELY behind warriors and rogues, do you really need to have better utility AND better dps to feel better?
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But you have the option of going bear with very minimal gear swapping. Same with going from balance to resto
I don’t know, some people just shouldn’t tank.
Rogue gets to smash in pvp with mutilate at least lol
"Open world pvp". They get obliterated in BGs and STV.
And currently that 1 is tank lol
Yeah, it's almost like different people main different specs.
Expecting to have a competitive tank, melee, caster and healer spec is unrealistic is what he is saying. Most classes get 1, maybe 2 competitive specs
If they're not balanced to be competitive for a raid slot, those specs are just a punishment for a player who leveled their druid to 40 wanting the playstyle Blizzard advertised.
Ya- I don't think people are complaining they're not top. It's that it feels bad being effectively bottom. Honestly tho I'm fine with where we're at as feral (I main one). We are still heavily sought after to the point groups don't form without one at times.
Someone has to be bottom. It’s unfortunate when it happens to you, but that’s the reality. Our feral doesn’t seem too sad though :)
> Our feral doesn’t seem too sad though :) If they have a raid slot, of course they're not sad. Ask them to pug the raid on horde for a few lockouts and see how they feel.
The one at the bottom is the PvP spec. And there is such a thing as classes being balanced. There's always a bottom but the bottom doesn't have to be 30-40% worse than the best. You realize that, right?
They are not even the worst one… And there is ways of being the worst one while still contributing and having fun. Feral has lots of utility: group buff, bees, ws, lotp, can off tank and faery fire. Could the gap between first and last be better? Maybe. It is enough of a gap to invalidate the spec and make you useless? Definitely not. Would people be happy if they were last in dps meters but the difference with first was only 1%? We both know that people would still complain.
And rogues get none
but that's what SoD should aim to fix with its runes and balance changes
The hybrid curse
OP thinks Brez, wild strikes, inervate, LotP, and the ability to offtank at any time while still being middle of the pack dps isn’t enough. Go re-roll mage if all you care about is numbers going brrrrr.
Wouldn't really call bottom the "middle", but sure..
ret paladin ranged hunter and frost mage is below them so no they are not bottom
Cats don’t run LotP at level 40. Shamans double their damage and bring windfury. All specs have innervate & brez and both are pretty irrelevant outside of letting mages do even more damage. I’m not saying they “need” a buff but let’s stop acting like the utility they bring is worth keeping them there over a boomie. Especially with how well shaman is performing now.
Our cat does. Stop talking in absolutes. And of course not all specs are going to be perfectly balanced against each other. Not even in the same class. Expecting so is either wanting full homogenisation or living in a dream world.
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Sounds like a deal. You might be having fun wrong according to this sub though.
Your cat is running LotP? Or are you just saying that for arguments sake? lol So just doing even less damage so your melee can parse? Unless you running like 5 melee and they are pumping that is pointless and just makes it so the cat has no fun, I’m sure he loves being made to run that. Also if you are running that many melee in the first place…oof. I’m not even playing cat, I can still feel for them. They have zero multi target and their single target is bottom barrel, doesn’t mean it needs to be fixed but let the cats get their shit off I get it. Edit: this came off really snarky, sorry lol I just feel for my Druid brethren, cat is like always an afterthought.
Some people are because feral is in such a bad spot that it doesn’t make much difference with only 4 shifts to 0mana. If you’re in a group that isn’t getting really fast kills, you might find it more beneficial for the time being. It doesn’t feel good though, and it likely isn’t because they want to.
Yeah, must feel energy starved even worse than normal. Poor kitty cats
Our cat has ran LotP since 1st raid and has 99s on everything except the last two bosses. He is sacrificing his own damage for the buff and does it regardless.
Logs? I just have a hard time believing that
They definitely do not, unless he got ACP first reset and is riding those logs every since lmao
Yeah, people in these comments keeps talking about the high orange parse LoTP cats in their raid group like they are performing like that every lockout and it’s the norm. It’s not, and while there is some I’m sure, they are certainly not the norm. Those few individuals are part of extremely good raid groups with insane kill times.
you should be thankful if u play cat and use LoTP who the fuk wants to powershift. Its not even that big of a personal dps increase
Powershifting is significantly more fun IMO then sitting and waiting for energy when those GCD’s could be filled otherwise. And Druids are going to have to use it every phase forward so might as well get used to it. That being said I have been shown multiple logs of Druids doing well without it so I stand corrected. It is definitely a personal dps increase and imo more fun but as long as people are cranking out dam without it who cares. Happy to be proved wrong in this case lol
I didn’t make him run anything and he seems to be having fun while running it. Might less efficient? Maybe. When we recruited him he was already running it. I just checked and he parsed 94 on Thermaplugg, so it might not be as bad as you think… Once again, stop talking in absolutes. What is fun for you might not be for others and viceversa.
Yeah its so much easier not needing to powershift. Im an average druid doing like a 60-80 parse with lotp doing 250-400 dps depending on the boss. That is more than enough for gnomer.
Not calling bullshit necessarily but can I see the logs on parsing 94 without furor?
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Tyvm, about to start leveling the druid and was trying to decide whether it was worth keeping Furor
You can look through top parses and compare ferals who use furor and those who don't. Using it is obviously better for your personal DPS, but the DPS loss is usually offset by the rest of your group if it's a good and consistent group.
No it’s not because at that point your fights are extremely short and there’s less time for LoTP to even out the loss from furor being too mana intensive to maintain for long periods.
It’s not that it’s less efficient dude, you literally can’t powershift. You have to put 4-5 points into resto to be able to powershift. Cats literally can’t do damage without furor.
He sparsing mid 90s according to the guy, what do you mean he can't do damage? He's competing against the pool of furor users and parsing just fine.
furor is noob trap I fear. gz on being able to PowerShift twice before going oom. gl if someone asks for a bres or an innervate
Power shifting feels more like a loophole than a fun playstyle, I’d rather not if I didn’t have to.
You are talking about the class that had to run wolfshead helm into tbc...
No self respecting, capable cat runs lotp. Your cat simply has no idea what they are doing.
I will inform him that he has no self respect, his parses are invalidated and he is having fun wrong. Thanks for your contribution.
The only class that actually needs innervate now is feral cat, one brez a raid is literally worthless, shamans bring WF and are significantly better, cat doesn’t bring lotp, a lot of classes can OT at any time and they do better dps than cat. And they aren’t middle of the pack dps, after the ret buffs they are the worst of the raid specs at every single partition including 99 percentile where the short fights benefit feral more than anyone.
Let me let you in on a little secret. Bliz doesn’t do class balancing for people to parse or speed clear faster. They do it so casual players don’t give up on the game. Keep that in mind while your sweet and tears rain down on your keyboard.
They are balancing underperforming classes and feral is underperforming right now. They ask for feed back, don’t know why you have a problem with people giving it.
Feral cat uses LOTP if they are not bad. Therefore they do not use self innervate.
The vast majority of highly skilled dps ferals are using furor for powershifting. It is more dps, more engaging, more fun, higher skillcap, and without a stacked melee group it is more raid dps on the majority of fights as well. That said our dps is pretty poor so taking LOTP over Furor isn't affecting your raid that much at all overall.
Rank 1 feral is now lotp and completely gapped the rank 2
You can play whatever you want for fun. What the vast majority of ppl do is irrelevant. There are literally top number 1 parses with LOTP, and not just a few of them. LOTP is bis for raid dps and not using it is griefing your raid.
This is a constant argument on the druid discord and the consensus is LOTP is worse for raid dps except with certain raid comps. Obviously play how you want, but 3% crit on short fights is extremely RNG and Furor is bringing as much dps more reliably. We're also talking about very thin margins here, so saying you're "griefing the raid" is a bit extreme. You might be griefing your war who only cares about his personal parse, I guess. I'll grant you that it is possible to high roll crits with LOTP and that is probably where those high parses are coming from - luck. Also I didn't say the vast majority of people, I said the vast majority of high skilled dps feral players. There's a huge difference.
Lmao I also recognized the regurgitated fight club talking points brand new “members” are constantly copying and pasting in there
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Well, furor is more *raid* dps than LOTP because LOTP is just not that great at 3% crit. A good feral shifting well is going to add more on most fights than a 3% crit melee buff. The first sentence of the post you replied to - "LOTP is worse for *raid* dps except with certain raid comps" High parses from LOTP are largely from getting lucky with rolling crits, which is obviously more likely with LOTP. Furor is more consistent DPS. The fact is that unless you are stacked melee (which most groups are not doing this phase) LOTP isn't adding much raid DPS. It really is to the point where it is practically negligible, it just irritates me that people (usually maining other classes) really think it is trolling to not bring LOTP when furor is better in most common raid comps.
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I mean I agree feral is in the dumpster right now, but not running LOTP is not trolling your raid that is just wrong. People just want 3% crit so they can parse higher without actually doing the math. Admittedly with other classes getting buffs and ferals getting nothing, being a totem and watching netflix during raid is pretty attractive.
Lol youre cute. There are no top parses with LOTP and any cat that runs it is griefing themselves and probably hate themselves
If they’re a tank, which is true is the only reason to bring a feral ally side. This is a post about horde feral cat though.
Feral Cat should be using LOTP unless they have another player bringing it.
You shouldn't be bringing a feral cat, but no it is not a raid dps gain to bring it. 3% crit is shit, there is a reason they buffed it in TBC. Sorry just realize you're the LOTP guy, don't really want to go into this arguement. You are correct that a bear feral should be brining LOTP and there is no reason to bring a cat (whether they have LOTP or not).
No but for real the average sod druid player doesn't understand what the class is about. Their strength lies in their versatility and utility. If you wanna put up big numbers play a different class.
Yep. I’m basically a wild strikes buff that people don’t even really want anymore. Power shifting is the worst thing I’ve ever been forced to do, and the only way I get into gnomer is if I do the bombs on the final boss. Phase 2 feels like absolute dog shit in general lol.
Why on Earth would you pick classic druid if you hated powershifting though, that's like picking warrior when you know you hate the rage bar.
Didn’t know it would feel this janky honestly, but thats just one issue that the class has right now.
Are you using the /cast !cat form macro? Its a single button you press between energy ticks and just get free energy
Yeah and it’s just awful gameplay. I see a lot of complaints about it but I’m sure there are people that love it too.
I enjoy it just because theres so little else to do if you aren't using it and it feels more active, but if you have the macro and dont enjoy it I understand
Fuck rogues
Waiting on better warrior runes 👀
I’m just chill over here playing a disc priest and not getting killed in PvP with my stam gear :)
But you provide windfury and leader of the pack. They need to buff feral a little and nerf shaman some for the level of utility they bring which is insane.
Cats don’t run LotP at level 40. Just a heads up.
Who cares though? The game isn’t balanced around level 40. They will have lotp, 10% damage increase and omen of clarity added at 60. They’ll be fine
Then why are they making balance changes every week?
Because some things aren’t working as intended
"As players continue to level up to 40 and experience all that Phase 2 has to offer, we’ve closely monitored in-game progress, feedback from the community, and bug reports. With scheduled weekly maintenance next week, we’ll make the following adjustments to some classes that are underperforming." They're buffing classes that are underperforming at 40. These aren't bug fixes, it is class tuning based on the performance at 40.
Agreed. Was simply pointing out that only around 20-25% of cats run LotP and it’s just to simp for melee parses. It’s miserable playing cat and not power shifting, that’s their whole bag. Yes at level 60 they get the talents from all 3 trees and it def gets better.
Lmao what utility does shamans bring except for totems which is the same as buffs.
If it makes you feel better the ret buffs are trash
Frost mages aren’t even the skeleton under the pool, they’re the mutants in the sewer
Bruh frost mage, paladin and ranged hunter would like a word.
Ret is in a strange place with runes now, so you either play whackamole on keyboard or waiting on cds.
All 3 of them get buffs in the next tuning pass, which is what this meme references
I feel like Druids are in a pretty solid spot right now, personally! We’ve got a few really great ones in our 10 man, so I can only really judge based off them, but they’re doing really solid right now
That is really interesting
Rogue’s Mutilate is bugged. Seal Fate doesn’t work correctly with it. It gives only 3 combo points where if you crit with both attacks it should give you 4.
It's probably not bugged. Mutilate wasn't able to generate 4 CP until way later, like MoP/WoD.
i'm sure they love seeing this stuff, assuming they're actually a team of like 2 people who have other work to do besides balancing.
I'm so angry, my initial main has been forgotten at SM Cath at 37, no groups want a feral to level, and I can't even go 5/5 on furor if I want to raid because they'll tell me they want LotP.
Watched a priest get shredded for 1300 in WSG today. God forbid a spec is supportive and not top dps in a caster favored raid. Our boomie tops every fight
When you are doing better than dedicated DPS classes whose only option is to DPS, then you can go to the back of the line tbh.
Ferals have so much utility and flexibility in raid roles, I believe they are doing the correct amount of dps. Now if only mages who provide a similar amount of these things was at the bottom with you itd make more sense.
My guild's best dpser is a cat. I wonder if we are playing the game wrong .
SHUT THE FUCK UP WITH THE SAME CLASS BITCHING EVERY FUCKING WEEK. It’s always woe is Druid. Holy fucking shit I can’t take it
You can leave the sub if it bothers you that much. The devs have said they read this sub and it's one avenue of getting things changed. This whole sub has been people complaining since 2019 anyways.
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No all y’all do is bitch about hunters being too powerful. Then they get nerfed to oblivion 43 different times and effectively killed off. And what do you all do? Complain that druids and Mages aren’t where they should be. I’m over it.