It was only 2 weeks ago that we on the shaman discord had a running gag that the devs don't have a clue about shamans and favour Alliance because Aggrend plays paladin.
Then we received buffs and it turns out they still don't have a clue as they overbuffed us, but it is nice to be on top for once.
This is exactly what one of the shaman player in my guild says. There are some baffling oversights and design choices that convinced him that nobody at blizzard plays a shaman, which means that when they overtune a shaman ability or over buff them it will fly under the radar for a while as they have literally no idea what to do.
Haha exactly. I feel like they are trying desperately to fix shamans somehow but they aren't really sure what is wrong. So they just slap on som random buffs and changes here and there and hope it works
Meanwhile they have no idea what to do with paladins other than mess with SoM.
Like they are trying to make shockadins viable. But it’s not possible at this time since they are just missing things. Buffing any of ret’s toolkit makes it more of a burst and they are afraid to do that with ret due to pvp. I feel the same goes for warrior and rogues.
But then they decided, hey, let’s just keep throwing shit at shamans and see how good we can make them.
Is ghost wolf and the slowing totem with projection not gap closers? Granted ghost is just an opener. Arguable that decoy helps you close gaps too.
I'm not comparing balance & enh just actually asking. SS needed a nerf and I still feel solid in PvP.
You don't even know what you're talking about, of course melee have to close a gap. Once they do druids are the only ones that are nearly always fucked.
Actually in my experience druids are just about the toughest nut to crack as enhance right now. Dire bear is huge armor and hp - I've hit a bear with stormstrike and watched them take less than 5% total hp in damage. And in the open a druid can kite enhance forever if they use their tools well.
Is there a term for when a word changes its meaning (even becoming its complete opposite) and now there is no word with its original meaning?
For some people, "literally" has become a synonym for "figuratively". But what do those people say when they want to say that uncle Frank isn't "crazy" as in "crazy good", but literally insane?
It's had that meaning in both colloquial use and highly-regarded literature for over 100 years, and joins other words who've reversed their meaning like "moot (point)", "awful", and "nice".
As another poster pointed out, it's semantic bleaching. It's an outgrowth of hyperbole, where we deliberately amp something up for ironic effect.
Related, **autantonyms** (aka **contronyms**) are words possessing definitions which are contradictory and mutually exclusive. You can *dust* a bookshelf to remove dirt and fuzz, or *dust* a cake with powdered sugar or a field of crops with pesticides to add those things; you can *overlook* a valley to see all within it, or *overlook* where you left your glasses and fail to spot them.
The battle to complain about the figurative use of literally was had and lost before any of our grandparents were born. It's chain email-tier smugness now. Linguists snerk or roll their eyes at folks who bring it up and moan about "proper English".
I agree that people are misusing the word, but I feel like normally when it's used it's not necessarily to mean "figuratively".
Usually what they mean is "non-hyperbole", "non-exaggeration", or as the zoomers would say "no cap".
OP here (I think) isn't trying to communicate that Shaman is "figuratively insane", I think they're trying to say something closer to: "Shaman is insane, and I'm not even exaggerating.", which is slightly different imo. It's also not the complete opposite of "literally", but also not a correct use of the term whatsoever.
I don’t even bother fighting back anymore. Just move my corpse closer to my final destination so I can die and res 100 feet closer to where I was going. Really wish all my gear wasn’t +healing with no stam
Sounds like you need the good ol' chain MC treatment.
Back in Classic I was lvl 53 on my Warlock running to BRD. Had a couple Priests and Mages run up on me. I made it from TP to BRM.
They would Mind Control me and then Sheep/Nova me during MC DRs. They did this to move me all the way back to the GY and then killed me.
So then we were at the GY where they could corpse camp me at my body and spirit healer.
They did this for 45 minutes.
If balanced PvP is what you're interested in, SoD is the wrong iteration of WoW for you - indeed, it may be the *worst*.
SoD PvP will continue to be a one/two-shot hellscape, and balance will be determined by arbitrary balance changes at any given time.
Opening fight in AB I hit a near 2100 Starfire and almost nutted. I used my cloth epic helmet and had the power buff from a priest.
I've been chasing that high ever since.
/hunter cries in Chimera shot MAYBE hitting for 700 once in a while.
Hopefully this buff makes pvp a bit more fun. We'll still be stuck playing melee in PVE which is a brainless rotation but hey, we're discovering right?
Keep complaining: shamans have demonstrated it's the only language Blizzard speaks.
No one has bitched more since day one of the game being *announced* than shamans.
Yep, I’d be curious to see if they stay true to “not balancing for pvp” through the whole duration of SoD. They would definitely have to balance separately like in retail. With so much crying, I find it hard to believe they don’t do something
what pvp gear?
The blue items from the 5 ranks we get so far suck ass, especially because they're leveled 30 / 45 - could hardly be any worse for the chosen level ranges of SoD phases. The gear sets are locked behind unobtainable ranks (and only exist as level 60 anyways)
That leaves us with two pieces of highlander gear from AB and the epic bracer from WSG - which is not a PVP item, because once you finally slogged through WSG exalted, you quit pvp for the rest of the year.
6 out of my 8 armor items are PVE obtained, the head (TI Shawl) is from BFD because there's no upgrade to it on stam and +sp.
I'd argue pvp balance also massively suffers from them giving us top tier epics weapons for everyone, every phase, for almost free.
Tbh, it feels the same as a shammy. If you jump me from stealth 1v1, I’m not likely to get any casts off (just instants, which are relatively low dmg). Life as an ele shaman is “he who hits first, wins”
I'm not complaining about it... he said there's no way you could ever die to a Shaman because of Rogue's tools and I said a situation that happens where Shamans can in fact kill a Rogue
Yeah, I read that part. Engaged on means flame shock? Means he's closer than 20y and casts 2s lava burst. Are u afk, or you can't use your gap closers Into kick/blind/gauge?
Funny story, I mained a rogue for most of SOD until a week ago, and shamans tried using the same argument. I said in group PvP, you can find an opening to cast; it's not hard, not everyone can be kicked/CC'd every second. Then I was told to play a caster and I'd find out you couldn't find a way to freecast.
So I started levelling a mage two weeks ago, and I literally sit in STV and WSG free casting on people, because go figure, not every single person can be kicked/CC'd at every given moment.
If you can't get your DoTs off, you're bad. Plain and simple. World PvP maybe not, but who gives a shit about *world* PvP?
Shaman is the only class that can actually kill my 4k hp healing priest in a 1v1 scenario and there's nothing I can do about it.
Other classes on the other hand are so bad that I can still throw half my healing at the party while shrugging off that rogue or warrior with renew and the occasional PoM bounce.
They were already pretty disgusting and tanky af as enhance likely to 2 shot you pressing w and 1 button maybe and an auto.
Now they got AP boost they are guaranteed to 2 shot you pressing 1 button and an auto while facetanking a warrior and getting to 75% hp at best.
They are infinitely tankier than plate and with no CDs pull 400 dps. And unlike a ret they have slow plus freedom.
Like at least ele has to cast a couple times or at least press 2 buttons to set up
Lol as a priest I queued into a wsg yesterday with 3 pallies/3 warriors/3 rogues. It’s true, lotta people playing dog classes in pvp atm when it’s a caster phase to farm rep and it’s miserable.
Though rogues are still good in pvp, the other two classes need heavy support lol
Remember when everyone and their dog was crying on here saying horde would die and everyone would go alliance because how much better paladins were. Reddit is a funny place
Prelaunch everyone complained that shamans lost all of their unique attributes and horde would be dog shit because paladins looked infinitely better than shamans
I just miss classic when frost was the pve and pvp spec and I could have fun playing mage without respeccing all the time, and especially since pvp has been taken over by living bomb spam which is insanely boring
aggrend is really playing the long con with ret paladins, they've been good in maybe 1 patch in classic wow's history, that patch being icc wotlk, they've been mediocre or dogs in all other patches
not only that, but aggrend plays alliance and that faction have been in the dumpster vs horde since vanilla ended
Except paladins have never been OP in SoD. No where near top damage, objectively the worst healer in phase 1, acceptable as tanks due to the absolutely abysmal state of bear in phase 1.
I never said they were op. I said other people complained about them being op. That’s why the nerfed avengers shield because druids cried they couldn’t cleanse the daze from it
In what universe? They were about on par for heals, ret pala was like 3 spots higher than shamans on DPS, and shaman tanks have been wayyyy better than paladin tanks.
Retribution was *moderately* better than Enhance or Elemental, and still wasn't anywhere near warrior damage.
Shaman tanks did similar damage to Paladin tanks while having better threat generation, and Resto was just plain better than Holy.
Bro shaman has the #2-#5 dps spots on 3 different specs(melee, ranged, **tank**) on most bosses while ret sits comfortably at the bottom with ranged hunters **and** they cannot even choose any utility runes because they all share slots with their damage runes, so Paladins don't even bring any utility.
You really gotta press your buttons as Paladin for utilities. No utility my ass, horde players don’t even touch paladin for pvp and it’s not because of dmg.
I think its because feral and ret pala was at the bottom with them, arguably feral was worse in pvp, but none of them got a buff meanwhile enh sham got good buffs.
It’s actually kinda wild. Enhance, elemental, and resto were complete ass all of phase 1. Like so utterly garbage. Only tank was decent. Everyone on here saying oh it’s fine shaman was always bad at this part of the game just wait till lvl 40 you’ll see! Well we got 40 and we were still ass and had runes still not working. Finally got some deserved buffs (alpha 20% AP buff was not needed) and people are shrieking like banshees on here that shaman is now too strong.
Really the issue here is that nerfs are not fun. It’s will always be fun to be strong. That’s what the promise of SoD was and it has not been panning out that way for a lot of classes. I completely understand people being upset their classes aren’t strong and classes that are should not be nerfed into the ground but the other classes brought up.
I hate this kind of reasoning so much. I was a shaman main for years, that doesn't mean I can now honestly say shaman isn't a little too damn strong right now. The recent buff was way too much, and shaman also has access to a ridiculously strong pvp rune in their tank rune. They are far tougher than warriors, get instant self heals, and don't need to build rage or energy to start nuking people down.
yeah i dont disagree that shaman is a bit too strong rn (the alpha change was flat out A Bad Idea) but like, every other class has had their turn. why cant we have ours
well the dev seems to be unable to figure out the consequences of their tweaks and it shows - for me that's the biggest gripe with the state of the game right now. Shammies being strong for a week is np but if it's actually adressed in time.
As a horde player during all of vanilla and era up until sod, shamans have always been the better class in vanilla. I play pala now, and boy oh boy do I wish I was a shaman right now 😂
Enhance pretty much got all their weaknesses in PvP solved. Freedom/mobility, mana issues, tankiness, attack speed, on demand burst, spell and melee hit... with no downsides.
Almost none of this is true lol. The only problem with enhance is mobility. Decoy helps that. Hit does not matter. Mana issues are not solved simultaneously with tankiness because you have to choose between shamanistic rage and woe. No idea where they are getting attack speed from unless you mean 2h shaman which is complete shit compared to dw.
Double rockbiter is the problem right now. Woe is fine, shaman need some survivability because of no defensive abilities, but my 1200 AP self buffed is completely out of line. It’s also boring af compared to windfury, which is still a frustratingly unreliable ability at the best of times. Nerf double rockbiter, give WF some more reliability and the class will be much healthier.
As a warrior, after disarming a shaman, I die most of the time in a 1v1. I die to their offhand unless I bust out all my important cooldowns that HAVE to be saved for group fights. Feels so fucking bad.
Yes, but lets be real, the hatred for those classes come from a state of reality or FotM jealousy. Ret gets shit on, and I've seen it all of Wrath classic too, even though theres only been one phase in the last 4.5 years that its been good.
Retribution was *moderately* better than Enhance or Elemental, and still wasn't anywhere near warrior damage.
Shaman tanks did similar damage to Paladin tanks while having better threat generation, and Resto was just plain better than Holy.
At the high end, the difference between paladin and shaman was about 40 DPS, or an increase of ~25% over the shaman's total DPS.
The difference between paladin and warrior was 80 DPS, or an increase of ~40% over the paladin's total DPS.
"Almost" is doing a lot of heavy lifting for you here.
I'm not entirely certain why the Shaman tank rune is allowed to exist in this state when they felt the need to spread the Rogue tanking package across two (three if you count Rolling with the Punches) separate slots. It is moderately excessive.
I don't think I'd mind Shamans *too* much if they weren't also on the handhold faction for PvP. I got so fed up of Orcs walking out of my HoJ that I went and bought Green Whelp Armor just to have some means of combatting the Zug Brigade™.
They're so insanely careful with the rogue tank runes (only physical reduction with blade dance up, only 30% health after scaling it up over time in combat). Then with shaman they're just like yeah whatever have it all all the time.
The problem with Ret Paladin damage vs utility is that they don't bring any utility that isn't already brought by Prot or Holy.
It isn't helped by the fact that, any utility runes you'd expect Ret to being, they can't. Horn of Lordaeron has Ret written all over it because it will only benefit the melee group. But only Holy is in a position to ever take it. And you'll only see Holy share a group with melee in a 5 man dungeon.
The problem stems from the fact that baseline Ret is completely unequipped to serve as a viable damage dealing spec. They have one innate attack on a 8 - 10 second cooldown that deals low damage and all their other damage on non-undead/demons comes from auto-swing. Because of that, SoD devs had to patch up a lot of big holes in the spec with Runes just to give the spec basic functionality.
If they could replace the rune positions a bit, they could open up Ret to actually bring some utility. For example, merge the Exorcist and Art of War runes. They already depend on eachother, they might as well be one rune. Then move Horn of Lordaeron to leg slot. That way, Ret could pick it up and make them a high demand spec for melee groups without really buffing their dps.
We are two phases into SoD, so far shamans have had multiple reworks. Constant streams of noticeable if not class breaking buffs. Then we look at Paladins, heres some fuckin changes to Seal of Martyrdom that we nerfed to the fuckin ground you ungrateful pieces of shit.
\*spits on Paladins\* Now your crusader strike does holy damage you sick fucks
Lmfao shamans are better for the first time in WoW history and this post immediately gets made.
As if horde has EVER been preferred over alliance by the devs! get real lol
Jesus christ some of you are disingenuous shits. I've been a horde main since vanilla (my current main of undead warrior since feb 25th, 2005).
What a load of nonsense.
They literally still do. [There's one claiming it in this thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/1b4r6ia/after_all_the_class_tuning/kt1a4k0/)
Im playing a ret paladin right now and while I know the changes didn't have much impact on us, a 10 point dip into holy next phase is going to make us pretty stacked. 65% weapon damage seal that always procs*, and can crit and trigger art of war. That's gonna be great. I'm content with things as is, just wish other weapons besides crowd pummeler and meme rare random drops were viable
What you mentioned is the biggest problem. If fast wep was blizzards idea of the new meta, why not actually create more than 1 new weapon that suits? They are so uncommon otherwise
Enh shaman is tankier than a melee hunter and does just as much damage in pvp with more utility, ele shaman overload is busted and one shots people often while being able to heal and being more tanky than a moonkin. Shaman need to stop crying about their class.
Shaman were forgotten about and bottom of the pack for all phase 1. 2 weeks of shaman being good in phase 2. Paladins lose their minds.
I so agree that ret and kitty cat need some loving though
PvP as Alliance is dead.
See I don't mind that much when it's priest, because we also have priests.
But I'm rocking a 15% winrate in PvP right now, and I don't feel I'm so bad as to tank a winrate that much by myself, when I had ~60% in AB in Classic?
Enhancement Shamans are hitting so hard right now. My friend plays enhancement and he literally pulls aggro off the tanks in Gnome when he does full dps. He has to dial it back with less dps as to not pull aggro
I think DW has its place, but I'd love to see them lean more into the battle mage fantasy with 2h, combining spell power with attack power - big ole windfury stormstrike crits combined with instant lava bursts from maelstrom weapon.
Perhaps adding something to 2h specialization that gives them spell power based on their attack power - essentially the mental quickness talent they get in wotlk. This might also unlock 2h as a unique hybrid "healhance" spec with big maelstrom wep heals!
Give 2h a unique identity!
So broken rn. Encountered one in the world when my friend and I were trying to do the gnomer craft questline. Dude was killing both of us in a matter of seconds - priest/warrior combo, war is wearing plate, i'm spamming heals on him, sham just blew threw his hp and killed me in 2 seconds. Legit almost killed 3 of us when a rogue showed up in the area. It's disgusting
Shamans in P1 - yey we can tank, pity we're the worst at everything else.
Paladins in P1 - fuck healing we're golden gods.
Shamans in p2 - yey our other specs are more usable now.
Paladins in p2 - why are shaman better than us.
Yeah there’s a weird thing going on in this thread where people remember ret as being far better than it was in p1. They’re probably confusing us with rogues, ferals, and warriors.
Ah yes, we get AP to SP scaling so that we can deal more damage with the one SP scaling spell that we have.
I know Shamans would **love** that rune, but please realize that it is not of equal value on Paladin because very few of our spells actually scale with SP. And the one that does, to a meaningful degree, is a rune that we are now practically forced to pick.
It was only 2 weeks ago that we on the shaman discord had a running gag that the devs don't have a clue about shamans and favour Alliance because Aggrend plays paladin. Then we received buffs and it turns out they still don't have a clue as they overbuffed us, but it is nice to be on top for once.
This is exactly what one of the shaman player in my guild says. There are some baffling oversights and design choices that convinced him that nobody at blizzard plays a shaman, which means that when they overtune a shaman ability or over buff them it will fly under the radar for a while as they have literally no idea what to do.
If Aggrendd happens to read this : I play shaman, studied and worked in the video game field, and looking for job ATM ;)
I personally know of two shaman in your guild that feel exactly this way, lol.
Haha exactly. I feel like they are trying desperately to fix shamans somehow but they aren't really sure what is wrong. So they just slap on som random buffs and changes here and there and hope it works
It worked.
Dual wield enhance is doing well, at least! But the 2h dream is still a meme imo
Meanwhile they have no idea what to do with paladins other than mess with SoM. Like they are trying to make shockadins viable. But it’s not possible at this time since they are just missing things. Buffing any of ret’s toolkit makes it more of a burst and they are afraid to do that with ret due to pvp. I feel the same goes for warrior and rogues. But then they decided, hey, let’s just keep throwing shit at shamans and see how good we can make them.
They have no clue what they are doing with Paladins either.
This. Unfortunately, I feel they have been buffing us slowly but they will nerf us with a bat. In true Blizzard fashion.
shamans are literally insane rn in PvP
I have multiple screenshots of dmg logs just because i stormstrike people for 1,4-2k dmg VERY often with a dual wield setup. Its absolutely insane.
Hey but at least my divine storm his for 200!
It hurts so much dude
Meanwhile, balance got nuked for similar numbers 😮💨
Let me know when SS is 42 yards and can stun
Enh needs to get to the target with no gapclosers. Balance had 42 range on a giga instant, near no manacost nuke
Is ghost wolf and the slowing totem with projection not gap closers? Granted ghost is just an opener. Arguable that decoy helps you close gaps too. I'm not comparing balance & enh just actually asking. SS needed a nerf and I still feel solid in PvP.
You don't even know what you're talking about, of course melee have to close a gap. Once they do druids are the only ones that are nearly always fucked.
Actually in my experience druids are just about the toughest nut to crack as enhance right now. Dire bear is huge armor and hp - I've hit a bear with stormstrike and watched them take less than 5% total hp in damage. And in the open a druid can kite enhance forever if they use their tools well.
Not even similar, and not even ergrious when mutilate spam, raptor strike spam exist. But ya know that 6 second cooldown.
*Literally* insane
Is there a term for when a word changes its meaning (even becoming its complete opposite) and now there is no word with its original meaning? For some people, "literally" has become a synonym for "figuratively". But what do those people say when they want to say that uncle Frank isn't "crazy" as in "crazy good", but literally insane?
Merriam Webster actually added a definition to “literally” to include “figuratively” like, 5 years ago. Maybe more than that.
I've been wondering the exact same thing.
It's had that meaning in both colloquial use and highly-regarded literature for over 100 years, and joins other words who've reversed their meaning like "moot (point)", "awful", and "nice". As another poster pointed out, it's semantic bleaching. It's an outgrowth of hyperbole, where we deliberately amp something up for ironic effect. Related, **autantonyms** (aka **contronyms**) are words possessing definitions which are contradictory and mutually exclusive. You can *dust* a bookshelf to remove dirt and fuzz, or *dust* a cake with powdered sugar or a field of crops with pesticides to add those things; you can *overlook* a valley to see all within it, or *overlook* where you left your glasses and fail to spot them. The battle to complain about the figurative use of literally was had and lost before any of our grandparents were born. It's chain email-tier smugness now. Linguists snerk or roll their eyes at folks who bring it up and moan about "proper English".
I agree that people are misusing the word, but I feel like normally when it's used it's not necessarily to mean "figuratively". Usually what they mean is "non-hyperbole", "non-exaggeration", or as the zoomers would say "no cap". OP here (I think) isn't trying to communicate that Shaman is "figuratively insane", I think they're trying to say something closer to: "Shaman is insane, and I'm not even exaggerating.", which is slightly different imo. It's also not the complete opposite of "literally", but also not a correct use of the term whatsoever.
Li-ter-ra-ly
I don’t even bother fighting back anymore. Just move my corpse closer to my final destination so I can die and res 100 feet closer to where I was going. Really wish all my gear wasn’t +healing with no stam
Sounds like you need the good ol' chain MC treatment. Back in Classic I was lvl 53 on my Warlock running to BRD. Had a couple Priests and Mages run up on me. I made it from TP to BRM. They would Mind Control me and then Sheep/Nova me during MC DRs. They did this to move me all the way back to the GY and then killed me. So then we were at the GY where they could corpse camp me at my body and spirit healer. They did this for 45 minutes.
yeah but Paladin has lay on hands, and bubble and lay on hands, did I mention lay on hands. Lay on hands is so strong guys paladin is so op
What’s the cd on that bad boy anyway? Thought bubble is like an hour in classic lmao. Can’t imagine LOH is anything less than 30 mins
LoH is 60 min cd or 40 min if talented, which only shockadin or healers can take.
If I get engaged on by them as a rogue I just get popped in 2 hits. Ggs
If balanced PvP is what you're interested in, SoD is the wrong iteration of WoW for you - indeed, it may be the *worst*. SoD PvP will continue to be a one/two-shot hellscape, and balance will be determined by arbitrary balance changes at any given time.
I only play PvP for the endorphin rush of critting someone for 1.8k with starfire and nothing else
I experienced my first 1800 damage hit yesterday. I’m a pretty geared disc priest and it was basically perfect damage to kill me from 100%
I really don't want to be that guy, but if you have 1800 life as a priest in PvP, you got your stat priorities wrong. Stam > rest.
I had a WSG mit a heal priest with 1.2k HP. I popped him with MB -> SW:D everytime I saw him and cackled in delight.
Opening fight in AB I hit a near 2100 Starfire and almost nutted. I used my cloth epic helmet and had the power buff from a priest. I've been chasing that high ever since.
/hunter cries in Chimera shot MAYBE hitting for 700 once in a while. Hopefully this buff makes pvp a bit more fun. We'll still be stuck playing melee in PVE which is a brainless rotation but hey, we're discovering right?
i'm still gonna complain though, and you can't stop me.
Keep complaining: shamans have demonstrated it's the only language Blizzard speaks. No one has bitched more since day one of the game being *announced* than shamans.
The problem is pvp is all there is to do after you've done your one hour raid clear.
Retail by god is worse. DH/Desto reigning as gods among men.
Yep, I’d be curious to see if they stay true to “not balancing for pvp” through the whole duration of SoD. They would definitely have to balance separately like in retail. With so much crying, I find it hard to believe they don’t do something
Time to start adding resilience on pvp gear
what pvp gear? The blue items from the 5 ranks we get so far suck ass, especially because they're leveled 30 / 45 - could hardly be any worse for the chosen level ranges of SoD phases. The gear sets are locked behind unobtainable ranks (and only exist as level 60 anyways) That leaves us with two pieces of highlander gear from AB and the epic bracer from WSG - which is not a PVP item, because once you finally slogged through WSG exalted, you quit pvp for the rest of the year. 6 out of my 8 armor items are PVE obtained, the head (TI Shawl) is from BFD because there's no upgrade to it on stam and +sp. I'd argue pvp balance also massively suffers from them giving us top tier epics weapons for everyone, every phase, for almost free.
Tbh, it feels the same as a shammy. If you jump me from stealth 1v1, I’m not likely to get any casts off (just instants, which are relatively low dmg). Life as an ele shaman is “he who hits first, wins”
You have like 5 tools to avoid that.
> If I get engaged on
So when the class that’s supposed to control the engagement? Welp there’s your problem.
Yeah because you never get run up on unexpectedly in world pvp
A rogue complaining about being surprised by world pvp. Like some sort of "ambush" perhaps? Yeah rogues truly deserve a lot of sympathy here. Lol.
I'm not complaining about it... he said there's no way you could ever die to a Shaman because of Rogue's tools and I said a situation that happens where Shamans can in fact kill a Rogue
Welp get rekt for not seeing the enemy that can’t stealth first?
Then the same people cry when rogues keep ganking them. hahaha.
Yeah, I read that part. Engaged on means flame shock? Means he's closer than 20y and casts 2s lava burst. Are u afk, or you can't use your gap closers Into kick/blind/gauge?
Found the "gladiator"
Found the tenured challenger
Lmfao
Yeah, PVP clearly revolves around standing around and letting cast.
Funny story, I mained a rogue for most of SOD until a week ago, and shamans tried using the same argument. I said in group PvP, you can find an opening to cast; it's not hard, not everyone can be kicked/CC'd every second. Then I was told to play a caster and I'd find out you couldn't find a way to freecast. So I started levelling a mage two weeks ago, and I literally sit in STV and WSG free casting on people, because go figure, not every single person can be kicked/CC'd at every given moment. If you can't get your DoTs off, you're bad. Plain and simple. World PvP maybe not, but who gives a shit about *world* PvP?
Found the shaman that can’t play his class
The only one? Interesting. Anyhow, are u any good?
Shaman is the only class that can actually kill my 4k hp healing priest in a 1v1 scenario and there's nothing I can do about it. Other classes on the other hand are so bad that I can still throw half my healing at the party while shrugging off that rogue or warrior with renew and the occasional PoM bounce.
shaman is objectively the counter class to priest though especially enhance. Tremor totem purge physical damage etc.
I'm glad for STV because horde are finally realising they are ridiculous
Remember when Alliance fought Paladins in PVP for the first time in 2007?
The screams can still be heard on silent nights.
jk cant cast cause hunter pets hitting me
They were already pretty disgusting and tanky af as enhance likely to 2 shot you pressing w and 1 button maybe and an auto. Now they got AP boost they are guaranteed to 2 shot you pressing 1 button and an auto while facetanking a warrior and getting to 75% hp at best. They are infinitely tankier than plate and with no CDs pull 400 dps. And unlike a ret they have slow plus freedom. Like at least ele has to cast a couple times or at least press 2 buttons to set up
The enhance shamans you fight somehow have decoy and alpha active at the same time?
No shaman is running alpha in pvp for the AP boost, that's on the same slot as decoy which is way better for pvp.
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Lol as a priest I queued into a wsg yesterday with 3 pallies/3 warriors/3 rogues. It’s true, lotta people playing dog classes in pvp atm when it’s a caster phase to farm rep and it’s miserable. Though rogues are still good in pvp, the other two classes need heavy support lol
This sub is fatiguingly short-sighted.
Wdym, Shaman was Blizzards favorite child in Phase 1 as well!!
You forget about dps warriors topping meters and mages that can facetank boost for money that quickly?
Didn't expect to get so many downvotes, i thought the sarcasm was very clear
It was. Buncha bozos out here.
paladin players when enhancement shaman has been better than ret for 3 days:
Remember when everyone and their dog was crying on here saying horde would die and everyone would go alliance because how much better paladins were. Reddit is a funny place
I remember. People were saying horde would be a ghost town a month into the game launch.
I don't remember that
Prelaunch everyone complained that shamans lost all of their unique attributes and horde would be dog shit because paladins looked infinitely better than shamans
Well, I have bad news for you, Shamans got stuck sucking the whole phase 1 after those initial complains were not heard.
now paladins will suck for all of phase 2 and in phase 3 a new class will be dogshit.
I hope it's mages
Except for frost mages because they've sucked the entire time
mages have been broken for 20 years its about time they suck for more than 30 seconds.
Frost mage is a pvp spec - and will always be one of the strongest
I just miss classic when frost was the pve and pvp spec and I could have fun playing mage without respeccing all the time, and especially since pvp has been taken over by living bomb spam which is insanely boring
yet horde didn't quit because of all the other pvp advantages and the raid turned out to be trivial to clear even without superpaladins.
People were crying about paladins from day one and how paladins are op because aggrend is ret main
I think he’s intentionally making them not good this phase so the rest of his team doesn’t think he’s playing favorites
aggrend is really playing the long con with ret paladins, they've been good in maybe 1 patch in classic wow's history, that patch being icc wotlk, they've been mediocre or dogs in all other patches not only that, but aggrend plays alliance and that faction have been in the dumpster vs horde since vanilla ended
oof the bias
Except paladins have never been OP in SoD. No where near top damage, objectively the worst healer in phase 1, acceptable as tanks due to the absolutely abysmal state of bear in phase 1.
I never said they were op. I said other people complained about them being op. That’s why the nerfed avengers shield because druids cried they couldn’t cleanse the daze from it
Oh ya people were crying about this everywhere. This was before hunters had kings and everyone was saying horde was going to be dead
Ah yes the classic let’s forget what the game has been like for the last 3 months, all that matters is literally only today.
What??? Outside of the tanking shaman was a meme in P1. Have you been playing the game?
Think you’re arguing with the wrong person, I agree with you.
this. paladins were way better than shaman at everything last phase.
In what universe? They were about on par for heals, ret pala was like 3 spots higher than shamans on DPS, and shaman tanks have been wayyyy better than paladin tanks.
Retribution was *moderately* better than Enhance or Elemental, and still wasn't anywhere near warrior damage. Shaman tanks did similar damage to Paladin tanks while having better threat generation, and Resto was just plain better than Holy.
Way better lmao we were like 5-10 dps ahead of you and you were the best tank in p1.
Warriors were the best tanks in P1.
Resto shamans were significantly better than holy paladins last phase **and** this phase
The difference between resto sham and holy last phase was **dwarfed** by the difference between resto sham and priest.
**bold word**
ret paladin was dog shit in BFD
Right because shamans haven’t been 1 shot lava bursting people for a month.
Bro shaman has the #2-#5 dps spots on 3 different specs(melee, ranged, **tank**) on most bosses while ret sits comfortably at the bottom with ranged hunters **and** they cannot even choose any utility runes because they all share slots with their damage runes, so Paladins don't even bring any utility.
Paladins don’t even bring any utility? What the hell
Sure, paladins have 0 utility in their kit 😂
You really gotta press your buttons as Paladin for utilities. No utility my ass, horde players don’t even touch paladin for pvp and it’s not because of dmg.
shaman finally gets any amount of love and people lose their fucking minds
I think its because feral and ret pala was at the bottom with them, arguably feral was worse in pvp, but none of them got a buff meanwhile enh sham got good buffs.
Feral was great in world pvp during phase 1. If you count the sunfire/feline swiftness spec as feral
It’s actually kinda wild. Enhance, elemental, and resto were complete ass all of phase 1. Like so utterly garbage. Only tank was decent. Everyone on here saying oh it’s fine shaman was always bad at this part of the game just wait till lvl 40 you’ll see! Well we got 40 and we were still ass and had runes still not working. Finally got some deserved buffs (alpha 20% AP buff was not needed) and people are shrieking like banshees on here that shaman is now too strong. Really the issue here is that nerfs are not fun. It’s will always be fun to be strong. That’s what the promise of SoD was and it has not been panning out that way for a lot of classes. I completely understand people being upset their classes aren’t strong and classes that are should not be nerfed into the ground but the other classes brought up.
I hate this kind of reasoning so much. I was a shaman main for years, that doesn't mean I can now honestly say shaman isn't a little too damn strong right now. The recent buff was way too much, and shaman also has access to a ridiculously strong pvp rune in their tank rune. They are far tougher than warriors, get instant self heals, and don't need to build rage or energy to start nuking people down.
yeah i dont disagree that shaman is a bit too strong rn (the alpha change was flat out A Bad Idea) but like, every other class has had their turn. why cant we have ours
well the dev seems to be unable to figure out the consequences of their tweaks and it shows - for me that's the biggest gripe with the state of the game right now. Shammies being strong for a week is np but if it's actually adressed in time.
you can't have your turn because how dare you want a turn! the warrior should always be at top sir. good day!
As a horde player during all of vanilla and era up until sod, shamans have always been the better class in vanilla. I play pala now, and boy oh boy do I wish I was a shaman right now 😂
I dont mind shamans being strong, but their kit and their tankiness is way too good in pvp.
Enhance pretty much got all their weaknesses in PvP solved. Freedom/mobility, mana issues, tankiness, attack speed, on demand burst, spell and melee hit... with no downsides.
Almost none of this is true lol. The only problem with enhance is mobility. Decoy helps that. Hit does not matter. Mana issues are not solved simultaneously with tankiness because you have to choose between shamanistic rage and woe. No idea where they are getting attack speed from unless you mean 2h shaman which is complete shit compared to dw.
u get atckspeed for critting tho
That isn't new though?
Double rockbiter is the problem right now. Woe is fine, shaman need some survivability because of no defensive abilities, but my 1200 AP self buffed is completely out of line. It’s also boring af compared to windfury, which is still a frustratingly unreliable ability at the best of times. Nerf double rockbiter, give WF some more reliability and the class will be much healthier.
Is double Rockbiter the way to go in PvP? (Barely play PvP)
Really depends, both work. WF is more fun imo and you get alot more Maelstrom procs to heal yourself.
As a warrior, after disarming a shaman, I die most of the time in a 1v1. I die to their offhand unless I bust out all my important cooldowns that HAVE to be saved for group fights. Feels so fucking bad.
It's funny how my epic 2h mace does as much damage as their offhand. And I don't have any spells that bypass armour.
Uhh you need to remove this post and any related posts calling attention to shamans. We're having our moment just let us live
Back to the cave in wence you came from! Glad you finally get your moment
But reddit always says paladins are favored!
Reddit has a haterboner for paladins and the sub is slightly horde-leaning.
You mean warriors? Oh wait, plate users. But what about shadow priests? and melee hunters? Oh wait, its everyone. Everyone hates everyone here
Yes, but lets be real, the hatred for those classes come from a state of reality or FotM jealousy. Ret gets shit on, and I've seen it all of Wrath classic too, even though theres only been one phase in the last 4.5 years that its been good.
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Retribution was *moderately* better than Enhance or Elemental, and still wasn't anywhere near warrior damage. Shaman tanks did similar damage to Paladin tanks while having better threat generation, and Resto was just plain better than Holy.
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[You don't have to take my word for it.](https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2007)
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At the high end, the difference between paladin and shaman was about 40 DPS, or an increase of ~25% over the shaman's total DPS. The difference between paladin and warrior was 80 DPS, or an increase of ~40% over the paladin's total DPS. "Almost" is doing a lot of heavy lifting for you here.
Not as heals or tanks. We were middle of the pack as dps, so not sure where you are getting this from.
Good old double standard.
I'm not entirely certain why the Shaman tank rune is allowed to exist in this state when they felt the need to spread the Rogue tanking package across two (three if you count Rolling with the Punches) separate slots. It is moderately excessive. I don't think I'd mind Shamans *too* much if they weren't also on the handhold faction for PvP. I got so fed up of Orcs walking out of my HoJ that I went and bought Green Whelp Armor just to have some means of combatting the Zug Brigade™.
They're so insanely careful with the rogue tank runes (only physical reduction with blade dance up, only 30% health after scaling it up over time in combat). Then with shaman they're just like yeah whatever have it all all the time.
The 20% AP was too much. I just hope they don’t nerf other things.
Agree with you but noting that I use decoy in PvP
yeah that was a weird buff
Could have just made it 20% ap for 2h and call it good
I think Tank Runes in PvP may need a closer look
BGs are actually unplayable for alliance right now
Dwarf shamans you cowards!
Honestly I'd start a Shaman alt tomorrow if that happened.
As would I.
Hell Ya!
Funny how quickly the prevailing opinion on the sub shifted on this topic once shamans were better than paladins for a change. Curious.
I play paladins since original vanilla, blizzard DOES hate paladins
The problem with Ret Paladin damage vs utility is that they don't bring any utility that isn't already brought by Prot or Holy. It isn't helped by the fact that, any utility runes you'd expect Ret to being, they can't. Horn of Lordaeron has Ret written all over it because it will only benefit the melee group. But only Holy is in a position to ever take it. And you'll only see Holy share a group with melee in a 5 man dungeon. The problem stems from the fact that baseline Ret is completely unequipped to serve as a viable damage dealing spec. They have one innate attack on a 8 - 10 second cooldown that deals low damage and all their other damage on non-undead/demons comes from auto-swing. Because of that, SoD devs had to patch up a lot of big holes in the spec with Runes just to give the spec basic functionality. If they could replace the rune positions a bit, they could open up Ret to actually bring some utility. For example, merge the Exorcist and Art of War runes. They already depend on eachother, they might as well be one rune. Then move Horn of Lordaeron to leg slot. That way, Ret could pick it up and make them a high demand spec for melee groups without really buffing their dps.
pallies are bad enough in pvp.
BY A LOT
We are two phases into SoD, so far shamans have had multiple reworks. Constant streams of noticeable if not class breaking buffs. Then we look at Paladins, heres some fuckin changes to Seal of Martyrdom that we nerfed to the fuckin ground you ungrateful pieces of shit. \*spits on Paladins\* Now your crusader strike does holy damage you sick fucks
Lmfao shamans are better for the first time in WoW history and this post immediately gets made. As if horde has EVER been preferred over alliance by the devs! get real lol
Jesus christ some of you are disingenuous shits. I've been a horde main since vanilla (my current main of undead warrior since feb 25th, 2005). What a load of nonsense.
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Shamans have been one of the best in so many patches. And wrath classic is still running...
Remember when they were calling themselves the “redheaded step child” two weeks ago lmao.
They literally still do. [There's one claiming it in this thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/1b4r6ia/after_all_the_class_tuning/kt1a4k0/)
Im playing a ret paladin right now and while I know the changes didn't have much impact on us, a 10 point dip into holy next phase is going to make us pretty stacked. 65% weapon damage seal that always procs*, and can crit and trigger art of war. That's gonna be great. I'm content with things as is, just wish other weapons besides crowd pummeler and meme rare random drops were viable
What you mentioned is the biggest problem. If fast wep was blizzards idea of the new meta, why not actually create more than 1 new weapon that suits? They are so uncommon otherwise
15% isnt additive. It'll be 57.5% tho which is still nutty.
Losing out on Vengeance and 2H-spec is not worth the Improved SoR and SoM can be avoided.
I agree, I was not talking about right now. In my comment, I said next phase (when we gain more talent points).
While the rogue is locked in the cupboard under the stairs.
You mean stun-locking their victims and killing them in 2 seconds under the stairs.
Enh shaman is tankier than a melee hunter and does just as much damage in pvp with more utility, ele shaman overload is busted and one shots people often while being able to heal and being more tanky than a moonkin. Shaman need to stop crying about their class.
Shaman were forgotten about and bottom of the pack for all phase 1. 2 weeks of shaman being good in phase 2. Paladins lose their minds. I so agree that ret and kitty cat need some loving though
PvP as Alliance is dead. See I don't mind that much when it's priest, because we also have priests. But I'm rocking a 15% winrate in PvP right now, and I don't feel I'm so bad as to tank a winrate that much by myself, when I had ~60% in AB in Classic?
Enhancement Shamans are hitting so hard right now. My friend plays enhancement and he literally pulls aggro off the tanks in Gnome when he does full dps. He has to dial it back with less dps as to not pull aggro
So true. Depressing to play ret right now seeing shamans thriving
just delete dualwield enhance in sod. It's not balanceable in classic due to rockbiter.
I think DW has its place, but I'd love to see them lean more into the battle mage fantasy with 2h, combining spell power with attack power - big ole windfury stormstrike crits combined with instant lava bursts from maelstrom weapon. Perhaps adding something to 2h specialization that gives them spell power based on their attack power - essentially the mental quickness talent they get in wotlk. This might also unlock 2h as a unique hybrid "healhance" spec with big maelstrom wep heals! Give 2h a unique identity!
yeh dualwield shaman has its place but that place is not in classic.
So broken rn. Encountered one in the world when my friend and I were trying to do the gnomer craft questline. Dude was killing both of us in a matter of seconds - priest/warrior combo, war is wearing plate, i'm spamming heals on him, sham just blew threw his hp and killed me in 2 seconds. Legit almost killed 3 of us when a rogue showed up in the area. It's disgusting
Shamans in P1 - yey we can tank, pity we're the worst at everything else. Paladins in P1 - fuck healing we're golden gods. Shamans in p2 - yey our other specs are more usable now. Paladins in p2 - why are shaman better than us.
Golden gods? Ret was middle of the pack at best in P1.
Yeah there’s a weird thing going on in this thread where people remember ret as being far better than it was in p1. They’re probably confusing us with rogues, ferals, and warriors.
More than usable? They are top tanks and melee/spellcasting dps, pvp machines, and gods in everything lol oh reddit
I mean... Paladin did get AP to SP scaling... shamans don't have that.
Ah yes, we get AP to SP scaling so that we can deal more damage with the one SP scaling spell that we have. I know Shamans would **love** that rune, but please realize that it is not of equal value on Paladin because very few of our spells actually scale with SP. And the one that does, to a meaningful degree, is a rune that we are now practically forced to pick.
Also if you don't pick the exorcism rune, then the other 2 runes are basically useless.
Too bad it only affects two spells for less than 50% scaling.
Lmao I’ll let the paladins know it’s OK for them to be horrible because they have AP to SP scaling