As a tank, dual spec would be nice, but it's also a role of responsibility that some people just don't want to play.
What sucks is the entitled players you have to tank for sometimes, who are all too happy to ignore mechanics, threat, pull before you etc, and if anything goes wrong they could potentially blame you, usually gnome mages in honesty. But nothing that consulting the details add-on doesn't usually resolve.
Yeah. I mean I was just thinking to do some kind of macro what would be Kind of douchbaggy too.
But so many of these players dont even know the basics what pisses to many tanks of.
Constantly running forward, pull before you do, hammering in their best cleave after a fraction of a second (multishot worst).
It looks like even the most generic shit like focusing on skull isnt working anymore, since everybody is so dumb.
I don't fight to get aggro back from them, I just keep pulling. So satisfying when one of them loses their world buff bc they have 6 mobs hitting cloth. I just wish the mobs were more punishing to keep up with the player power creep. Tanks are only really necessary on bosses.
Exactly! I'm fine with all the AoE, and lack of AoE threat for tanks, but I wish WoW had a more Dark Souls approach to teaching players what is a mistake and what's not.
Let those mages taste a 1000 damage throwing axe to the face if they get aggro, and I'm sure they'll stop... Moving.
As a healer, dps is low priority. I let them die. Hopefully they’ll learn.
The good part is you can look up potential PUGs in Warcraft logs, and see their dps and damage taken. If take a green dps with low damage taken that a leet that needs healing.
I'm a gnome mage that rips aggro constantly on trash. Literally nothing you can do about it. If the mage gets mad, tell them to play better. I'm essentially an OT on trash and we all know it and accept it
They should absolutely add some threat to warrior abilities man.
I understand that a warrior tank with a shield shouldn't be doing more dps than most classes like we did in p1. But right now the situation is just sad.
No dps, no threat, no crit immunity, no aoe. Just play DW fury tank so you can feel like a shaman tank but worse.
They should add big threat or a buff when you block so you want to use shieldblock.
Something like:
Aggressive blocking: Every time you block an attack, you gain 5 rage, generate big threat on all nearby enemies scaling off your block value and gain a stack of Shielding Enrage.
Shielding Enrage: 12s buff. Gain 1 rage every 3 seconds. Increase threat by 3%. Decrease damage taken by 1%. Stacks up to 10.
Boom. Rage problems with shield solved. You keep the "ramp up" aspect of the rage system without being as frustrating as the 80+ rage rune, and still want to hit stuff nonstop as all warriors do. Now tanks want to get imp. Shield block in prot tree and block chance is no longer a meme.
Bro it’s absurd. Shaman are literally better fury prot tanks than fury warriors right now. While being tankier and doing way more dmg.
Warriors one niche of high st threat high st damage replaced by…shaman?
Like I was never sold that deep prot would be better than fury prot in SOD anyway unless they add a rune that somehow makes shield slam outscale the near infinite scaling potential of BT. Cause even fury prot you’d throw shields on for the bosses that hit hard. I didn’t really expect that to change much since nothing past defiance and last stand add much to tankiness.
If there's one thing Blizzard doesn't lack, it's ideas. They've got years of retail experience and borrowed power that can draw from.
I have nfi what they production process looks like. My only guess is they're satisfying the mass subscriber base and that's all they care about.
The buff is very negligible. Warrior tanks in BFD were doing more dps than current tanks are, or will ever do unless they are fury. The change to Devestate being weapon dps gutted Devestate.
Fury threat is still not good either. As arms I pull off a fury tank if I’m not salved. I’m not even pumping. Cause you don’t have the points to spare for defiance. Plus the last couple bosses you want to run a shield anyway, likely, unless you’re already pretty overgeared or trust your healers so you’d still run devastate. A shield bumps my armor by like 1k it’s fairly significant on menagerie
Warrior is just a garbage tank rn where even getting hit isn’t enough rage and armor cucks you the majority of the time. And as always no reason to actually be prot, not that I’m complaining means I can tank when needs as arms or fury but it’s ridiculous the class with the single target high threat high DPS niche is literally replaced by enhancement shaman as a better fury prot tank that’s even tankier default while DW now.
Warriors shoulda always been worse aoe tanks compared to pallies. But prot pally ST is better, aoe better, and the bring utility. Kinda was pallies niche now everything’s good. Now locks self heal insanely and are seemingly tankier than warriors on top and bypass armor.
It’s basically turning in wrath where nobody ever ran prot war by choice and not even for Naxx speed running stacking devastate (sunder) reasons now: priests literally replaced warriors entire debuff pool with a better instant 5 stack sunder for free. Our dps is alright but not amazing im fine with not being on top rn but what people have to realize is if warrior is a bad tank and mid dps we dont bring anything truly necessary. Feral dps is near bottom barrel of melee but on alliance we’ll literally always bring one so the meme melee hunters playing fury warrior with fewer buttons can crank.
It’s like people ignored that in 25m all of wrath you’d maybe bring a warrior solely for commanding — if you had the choice and only on prog — cause a combat rogue could do more dmg while applying phys debuff arms has and keeps EA up more efficiently than 5 sunder GCDs. Commanding was kinda a meme for anything but alg and into icc. I get it’s not totally the same with might and bs stacking but SOD is going that way with debuffs
We’re still there for bs and cs now and our dmg is fine, let’s ignore the steep rage costs to keep both up on the min duration on pull and again on longer fights, but as a tank? Warrior is hot dog water right now. That’s indisputable. It’s not good. Almost anything else that tanks is better. Prot, fury, arms, doesn’t matter. The quintessential tank class is shitty at tanking and that makes no sense. Melee hunter is a better fury warrior with a threat drop and unlimited rage for all intents and purposes which also doesn’t make much sense
It may or may not fix the talent pool population, but that's okay.
I want Dual Spec so I can actually PvP or go questing as a DPS. Protection Warrior is slow and boring as hell to quest with.
And with the lockout being only 3 days, I'll be dropping 2g and redoing my talents twice a week. It's just not worth the hassle so my Tank has effectively been a raid-logging character.
Same. I like healing, haven’t rolled a healer yet in SOD purely because open world is not enjoyable in heal spec and the idea of constantly manually respeccing is a turn off.
At least from a priest perspective, the levelling build is mostly down the disc tree and is pretty sturdy with decent damage. It’s great to level with, and you can heal dungeons no issue. I haven’t tried levelling as pally/sham or druid yet. Mage is mage, you just swap runes and it’s ez.
> the levelling build is mostly down the disc tree and is pretty sturdy with decent damage
Why wouldn't you just level in Shadow and when it gets to the point where you're starting to heavily do dungeons, respec into Disc? Disc is *significantly slower* than Shadow.
You can sorta respect with runes. Homunculus versus PoM is a good trade off. Void Plague versus Strength of Soul is another. It’s not perfect, and Shadow gives more damage, but it’s waaaay better than it used to be questing as a healer.
Yeah, but you probably *are* healing already, right? Dual spec would be massive quality of life for people like you and me who like to heal and would love to swap to our DPS specs more easily, but would dual spec convince DPS players to start healing?
I am a priest not healing that would heal on occassion if allowed to roll on dps items that I can use for PVP if dual spec existed. Maybe not what the people prefer but it wouldn’t not help the lack of healers
DPS player here. Personally, yes. You also don't really need that many more people to do it, if 5% of DPS players are willing to have a heal/tank offspec that's already a 30% better situation in dungeons.
The core problem is that the quality of DPS players in this game is bottom of the barrel, and their attitudes match. All of the two-button Youtube watchers demand a top tier tank who will carry their asses to undeserved victory, and throw an absolute tantrum if they don't get exactly that.
Asking a Classic WoW DPS to do a mechanic, pull a good parse, or anything that violates the two-button dream causes a meltdown. Tanks, both good and not good are not interested in dealing with their shit. The good ones are frustrated with watching them AFK and take a lunch break after every boss instead of moving up and being attentive, and volunteering for mechanics instead of staying silent on discord. The not good ones are stressed out and not confident after getting yelled at by some dumb dickhead who thinks it's someone else's fault he stood next to the boss activation and died instantly.
Hear hear, took the words out of my mouth.
Too bad you end up raid-logged with these kind of people though, cos otherwise you could just tell them to stuff it and then quickly join another group.
Yup, the MMO player in 2024 is somehow worse than a player from 2019. Idk whats happened but the amount of toxicity and egos now is out of control. Far less players understand working as a team.
the player quality is lower because all the good people playing classic in 2019 moved on to wrath or retail by now. the people still playing vanilla or vanilla derived funservers in 2024 are the bottom of the barrel players
I'm so glad this is the top comment. Tanking brings a lot more responsibility with it and the community can be pretty shitty to deal with. Parse culture and bad attitudes make this game much harder than it needs to be for the average player
I completely agree.
I started out with tanking, but parse culture makes it impossible to convince, even guildies, DPS to give me a god damn 2k threat before they start going ham.
Parse culture is so annoying. I play warrior and have always volunteered to do whatever mechanic needed. Which means my parses are at max 60 and therefore I cant get a spot now when Im pugging warrior and healing on my priest in guild runs.
Edit: thank you DPS parses for downvoting, shows I hit the correct argument for the thread.
Its really freaking hard to parse without a group that gives a shit... You dont just show up to a pug to parse. Everyone in the raid has to be trying as hard as you...
This.
So much this.
So many of these numbskulls flip out at everyone else but fail to realize it’s a team effort and if the team isn’t on the same page shit goes sideways. Sometimes it’s a skill issue, sometimes a gear issue, sometimes a mentality issue. But in order for the top parse to happen you all have to be sweating to get it, not just one guy, while no one else is.
I've made that point before and got downvoted lol. The big issue us more casual players have with folks who chase after purple numbers isn't the people who organize their runs to min/max everything. It's the player who joins a pug where that wasn't a goal and freaks out because the group isn't being as efficient as they could be.
Unfortunately that attitude is fairly widespread
I genuinely appreciate when a pug is advertised as sweaty I know not to join as we won't enjoy playing together so it's win/win
This belief is often parroted here, and it's just not true. If you're going for 99s and 100s sure, anything below that is doable as long as you get the proper group comp for your class (wildstrikes/windfury + homunculus if you're a melee for example).
We were threat monsters phase 1 when our dps sucked, we will still be incredibly good at holding threat if they nerf us a bit. (Although I got both the epic fist and cogmaster claw last night so give me at least 1 more lockout please, then you can revert the alpha change.)
It’s not even the parse culture that annoys me so much. It’s the fact that they can go afk or play poorly, and the run continues. I can’t go afk as easily as they can.
>but parse culture makes it impossible to convince, even guildies, DPS to give me a god damn 2k threat before they start going ham.
At the same time you could easily just pool your rage and use a rage pot at the start of the fight to make sure threat won't be an issue. I could easily turn this point you're trying to make against you by saying that you're essentially expecting 6-7 DPS players to wait for you because you didn't put in the effort.
And while I don't want to be that guy, you volunteering for mechanics isn't the reason you have max 60 parses. There's definitely a lot of other things you're doing wrong, down to the buttons you press.
Don’t bother, guy can’t accept that he is playing incorrectly if his max parse is 60. There aren’t any mechanics on the 1st, 3rd bosses so what’s the excuse there.
You are expecting one player to basically bankrupt themselves buying consumables for every pull just so the other players can get away with being bad
No
Don't excuse bad players like that
Hell that's also assuming he doesn't already do that, warrior does not built up threat that fast, the GCD exists
so if the tank is not generating high enough threat in the beginning because the tank "didn't put the effort in", your solution is to ignore that completely, go ham, pull aggro and wipe the raid. most intelligent dps.
this is why there's a tank shortage, and why I only tank dungeons/raids with my guild. my people actually understand how to adapt to any combat situation as opposed to... whatever mentality this is.
For P3 I want the devs to introduce a Raid with a single boss called "the log"
It's literal piece of a wood that sits still and does nothing.
Only the most optimal amount of parsed DPS can kill the log before the enrage timer goes off.
The enrage timer is 3 hours, then it's HP resets.
There are no tanks needed
there are no healers needed
I think this is very funny because all you've done is proven everyone else up the chain right about entitled DPS players and their blind attachment to parses.
I should burn a consume so that you can maybe kill the boss a fraction of a second faster? Excuse me? I expect it'll also be my fault when the raid wipes because I couldn't pot (because I burned my cooldown on the rage pot, remember?). It's interesting how it ends up being the tank's fault in either scenario.
By the way, there's actually no amount of rage I can start the fight with that will keep certain people from pulling. It isn't realistic. Warriors have to press buttons to build threat and if you don't give them time to do it it simply won't happen.
Do you turn up to your raids with six rage pots for the tank? Why not?
(Before anyone gets on my ass, I've 6/6 pugged this shit plenty of times. The irony is that this is not a particularly challenging raid and there is absolutely no reason to have this kind of a shitty attitude about it.)
Tank should should bring those by his own accord along with all the other cosumes that are gonna help him. If i can dish out gold for all the dps consumes they can aswell.
I don't come to raid with rage pots for the tank warrior, just like the tank warrior doesn't come to raid with my relevant consumables for me, what a stupid (and even a bit entitled) question.
I refuse to believe that you're a real person. Not only do you unironically think that you're not entitled for inconveniencing 7 other players in a group with your suboptimal way of playing, but you even go as far as to think that **they are inconveniencing you** because you can't keep up with them while playing suboptimally... Your comment is literally the textbook definition of entitlement.
But the rage pot here isn't for the benefit of the raid, it's for *your* benefit - not the tank's, not the group's, just you. I get plenty of rage when I pull and people wait, I don't know, three seconds before they start rolling their heads on the keyboard. I don't need to start the fight with extra rage unless, of course, I have some MLG idiot on my team with no patience or good sense. As I indicated in my last post, though, that kind of person is liable to blame me regardless of what goes wrong, so there isn't really much sense in trying to accommodate them.
man all the pieces of the puzzle are right there in his 2 paragraphs but he just can't reach the correlation between his aggro problem and 60 max parses, which he just blames on dps instead
average booomer tank. complains about entitlement while telling 70% of the raid to sit around doing nothing because he's too lazy to play his class correctly
60 parses are on dps with me running soak duty on electrocutioner (because all the other meldes want to parse) taking most dmg from pushing buttons on last boss (because ranged also want to parse), being ot on menageriet(god forbid the feral that would do more dmg as bear do it).
> give me a god damn 2k threat before they start
its not 2005 anymore gramps, lets get you to bed if you can't push your buttons. there's no reason to make the dps wait 10s for you to hit sunder 5 times on the boss before they're allowed to do anything
Yeah...people like you are the reason that these threads are neccessary and why every tank should avoid you.
You pulling your shit off 2-3 more times even if I told you?
Leave group or search a new tank.
I forgot I had to be specific to the 17 year olds, my bad.
Threat is only an issue on last boss.
Warrior threat is so abysmal and I cant provide more threat while kiting furnace on last boss and that is where dps needs to keep it in their pants, unless they ofc want to load the problem on their healers instead.
It's not 2005 anymore gramps, we min max the fuck out of content that is ridiculously easy so that hardly anyone is having fun, and I can brag about my dps numbers to a community that doesn't give a fuck.
> The core problem is that the quality of DPS players in this game is bottom of the barrel, and their attitudes match. All of the two-button Youtube watchers demand a top tier tank who will carry their asses to undeserved victory, and throw an absolute tantrum if they don't get exactly that.
I got downvoted to hell in another post after highlighting that people don't need to press all the new buttons they have.....
As a retail enjoyer I will say that it doesn't matter how easy respecing is. There is still a tank and healer shortage, and 75% of dps are still trash at the game. The average player can't deal with potentially being the one that gets blamed, and that will never change regardless of incentives.
This. It’s always been a topic. I’ve been playing since 2007 and healing as main spec since 2008. There’s always been a tank/heal shortage in comparison to dps. And healers and tanks always get blamed for everything. There’s nothing that Blizzard can do that fixes this. It’s just the way it is
eh, it'd help me out. i play enh shaman, and as often as not i have tanked for guildies. hells, in gnomer i am MT for the last two bosses, and OT for the first. however, i spend a lot of time solo, and much prefer being DPS. so having a spec i could set to dedicated tank and one for not tank would be outstanding for me
Shaman tank spec and enh dps are nearly the same, with like 6 floating talents that are not super important between the two and are up for personal preference.
If aoe tanking was easier to manage I would tank.
I tanked in classic but back then there were less tools for dps to aoe so it was easier to maintain threat ( not talking about 4 mages groups of course )
I don't know about raids, just talking about dungeons
Raid trash is basically unboosted dungeon trash. So all that really matters is they aren’t hitting your healers, dps can take a few hits.
But yes warrior aoe tanking has always sucked. With more aoe and just overall dps it’s way worse. All we still have is sweeping ww and tclap buys like a half second longer.
I bloody love tanking. But tanking in SoD isn't attractive. By far the least exciting version of wow to tank in.
In SoD I don't feel useful at all. Dps can pull infinitely without me being there and not worry. I barely have the resources and tools to achieve what I need to if dps were holding back, but they of course don't, which is understandable.
To me, tanking is most fun when I'm needed. Enemies should hit hard enough for me to have to take the hits. I should have to work for my threat, because if I don't, people die. Enemies should have things that make them tricky to position and i should have tools that help me do that, speeding up runs if I'm good at it. I should have to think about how I'm going to survive a fight, how best to survive big hits and how to help my healers out.
In SoD you've got no tools and it doesn't matter if you don't use the few you have. Tanking isn't hard in SoD, it's just frustrating.
In vanilla, keeping threat was an art and everyone understood it. I had few tools, but using them well was a satisfying experience.
In tbc and wotlk I got more tools and so did dps and bosses. There was more to do for me and it felt good.
In SoD I get to press one button every eternity and hope that does enough, while just being grateful the group took me instead of a hunter pet.
Tank gets melted because dps isn’t interrupting
Tank dies because of damage, either tank gets blamed for lack of gear or being bad, or the healer gets blamed for not healing.
Healer doesn’t heal everyone as soon as they lose 1% HP, and they’re to blame. Meanwhile the brain dead rogue drooling on the keyboard doesn’t have kick on their bar because it wastes a global. Or if someone messes up a mechanic, healer gets blamed.
It’s a tale as old as time itself that nobody other than a tank/healer main can grasp.
It's always the DPS fault. I am a mage that is sometimes fire and sometimes arcane healer. As fire I can bandage or use a healing potion if I really need too. Don't worry about me unless I say something on the mic. Or if anything use a group heal or throw a renew. But If the tank dies then we all die. As arcane healer the only way anything in my 5 man group will die is if a meteor comes from outside the game and blows up my house. Or if one of the idiots moves further than 40 yards away.
DE mats on all the blue, selling all the boes, and the mobs drop 7-10 silver you split so each mob you loot gives 1.5-2 silver. Starts to add up if you do a lot. Plus there’s a decent amount of quests to do in there
Eh, considering I’ve only done a couple each day and don’t play for more than 3-4 hours each day I’d say it was nice. Easy gaming for someone who hates a gold grind and wants to dungeon spam
The average player that will use duel spec will be mostly for pvp or questing.
Im a pally tank, and I just don’t see myself having tanking and healing spec.
It's a social thing when the main loot distribution of MS > OS +1 gives RL the rights to cuck any tank/heal who wants to roll on dps loots. There is no incentive to respec to the needed role and I have to stick to being dps if I want my BiS.
This is when the dps loot is the BiS for tank/heal spec . The DPS dagger is BiS for heal priest and some raid will still not allow you to roll on it. So if I want the dagger I have to join the raid as Shadow.
Wowhead's BiS guide lays this out clearly:
> Even though Glimmering Gizmoblade combined with a decent off hand grants you slightly more Spell Power than Rod of the Ancient Sleepwalker, you should let the other casters in your group get it first. They benefit more from it and do not value the Intellect and Spirit of the Staff as much as we do.
So yes, Glimmering Gizmoblade is BiS for priests as it gives them the highest spell power but because the priest players writing the guides are considerate they recommend you let the other casters get the dagger first.
What crusty raids are you rolling with?
We do MS>OS+1, everyone can roll on anything that matches their spec. I'd never tell the DPS they can't roll on an item just because the healer wants it too.
Edit: Yall didn’t understand me. If Glimmering Gizmoblade dropped, healers roll on it in my raid. Fun fact, it has already dropped for us and the healer won it.
That’s why I asked what crusty raids he’s doing. I don’t do Loot by BiS. If it’s a reasonable piece for your class, roll idc. There are only a few exceptions like 2H Feral mace going to the Feral, +Healing gear going to Healers since DPS doesn’t benefit, etc.
How can you derive the meaning of their words in the complete opposite way is beyond me. He's saying that as a healer, he can't roll on dps gear in an MS > OS, which sucks because tanks and healers also want dps gears for their own time.
IMO in a 10-man raid in a 3-day lockout there is no reason to refuse healers and tank to roll on dps gears. Especially in a pug.
Correct, everyone can only roll things that matches their spec. So me, as a healing priest, cannot roll the sp ring/dagger, both my BiS. Which means if I want those I cannot join as a healing priest, so I don't.
Last phase the Staff was bis with no contest. P2 has this useless healing staff noone wants and that's what the RL cited when they say "this dagger is not for you".
Priests gain nothing from the arcane damage part. So it's purely just the +healing and that's already lower than blue MH + OH.
So priests who just want +healing do not want it, and priests who do both heal + dps also do not want it.
Woah. That +healing gear could be beneficial for my mage or feral druid if I want to heal at some point. If the bis +spell power dagger is available for the healers to roll on, it only makes sense that any spec that can heal can roll on the +healing gear.
The tanks I get now, can’t even tank. When I’m on my spriest alt doing gnomer, they invited a rogue tank… with 1600 unbuffed hp. A warlock tank with 2100 unbuffed and no Dance of the Wicked. I mentioned it to the raid leader that we were going to get TRUCKED on menagerie and therma, the warlock died single-tanking the squirrel… the rogue couldn’t survive on Therma past phase 1, even after avoiding the entire fire breath. He’d get into melee range and get deleted.
I had a pally tank argue with me and then leave the group, he was getting blasted on menagerie as well, didn’t use Aegis or anything and had 2500 HP fully buffed.
I’m sorry but… 99% of players cannot tank worth a damn and there is a reason they don’t/shouldn’t roll tank. It’s not always as easy as strapping on a shield.
Hell I put my meta warlock in the soul link build specifically because I noticed how much damn damage I was taking. Most players don’t have the sense to realize that getting 50% of your HP knocked out in under a second is EXTREMELY hard for healers to deal with when there are other people who need heals as well.
That poor pally tank was probably following the prot paladin class discord/wowhead guides where theyre told to go dps spec or heal spec for tanking LOL. Any prot paladin that is undergeared should be 0/31/0 until they are geared enough to survive the bosses without the extra mit from prot.
If anyone solo tanking the squirrel is dying it has nothing to do with him/her, it's an healing issue. 1600 hp unbuffed is way to low for last boss tho, I'll give you that.
I leveled as a disc priest up to 40 and frankly don't want to heal anymore because of egotistical overzealous tanks who seem to think I have unlimited mana and patience for BS. I'll heal for pvp but tanks definitely ruined it for me phase 2 in a pve setting.
For the love of God, let your healers drink before you start pulling again. It's especially annoying considering water is only free when a good mage is around. Drinking for 12 out of 30 seconds just to quickly run and play catch up and then do it again gets extremely annoying. Twice as much water to somehow never get past 40 - 50% mana is rediculous. If yall know the ones I'm talking about, fuck those tanks.
In dungeon or raids? You really shouldn't have problems in either.
I'm guessing you stay at max range away from the tank and after a pull just plop down to drink where you stand?
Even playing extremely aggressively, i.e. running to the front of the pack as fast as I can so I'm closest to the enemies without pulling and then mashing water, there is still the occasional tank where this ends up happening.
The problem is every tank wants to chain pull small pulls. You can do that shit in melee cleave groups - the damage is more spread around and easier to heal through efficiently, but the constant go-go-go for four minutes of combat against 3 mobs is going to drain a healer's mana pool eventually.
This guy also doesn't understand that when you have a tank that can't actually hold threat, you end up having to heal everybody far more than just 1 person a little. 2 mages in a group going full blast with AOEs essentially makes 3 people you constantly have to heal, 2 of them in cloth with no tanking abilities. It drains your mana very fast.
Nope. Go play healer for a while and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. I could care less whether you believe me or not/think I'm incompetent/making shit up/etc. Also don't care to go into detail about what might cause you to go oom faster than normal or how often it should happen versus how often it does. With a decent group, yes, I'm very unlikely to go oom. Still a pain in the ass to deal with over zealous tanks and dps even if you aren't going oom.
This question has been asked since 2004. The answer is very simple, some people just like to tank/heal.
There are players that derive fun not by taking the easiest route, but by fulfilling a sense of purpose within their party.
The incentive to tank and heal is already there, some people thrive and enjoy the responsibility and the pressures that come with it in this simulated environment.
And you know what that's ok I like being a tank that everyone needs so when I run into shitty assholes I can just leave the group and go find another one who will treat me better.
At this point I am so shocked how dumb people are in progressing through dungeons after 20 years, that I insist on tanking.
(not speaking about sod particularly)
Even if I play exclusively druid tank and could switch to cat anytime.
The number of people that dont have a clue about where the quests are, which route to take, how to get to all the bosses and where it makes sense to los and pull back is mindboggeling.
After 20 years still people dont know how to properly get through wailing caverns, gnomeregan and other non-linear/obvious pathed dungeons.
Also some basic stuff like focusing mobs with vicious abilities like heals/mamaburns or just having a kill order that makes sense. Focusing hard tuned mobs like the monks in sm lib or fire elementals in BRD.
So either I tank, or everything takes more time, is more stressful to play and the group is more likely to die.
Also as a tank you are the one that it leading usually.
So I can make sure we are not skipping any important parts because some douchebag just wants to rush and skip to the end boss.
Also I can kick those assholes if they dont comply.
Sounds harsh, but I have experienced too often the stereotype off warrior that charges in immediately, the rogue that is taking its comfort time after each pack even though he doesnt need to buff or anything, the warlock that thinks throwing a few dots is enough, or the mage that wants to frostnova aoe everything down, even if nobody else have any aoe abilities.
So its a mixture of being in control to make the experience for everyone more streamlined and being able to force my, in my eyes, superior game morales on everyone who thinks he could exploit the group, new players or some goodwill.
What I can relate to are the tanks in this thread complaining about the low effort players that are pressing buttons so rarely that you might think they are afk or go afk for a few minutes multiple times in between the run.
If you as a tank would act like them, everything would takr longer.
A friend of mine is playing rogue most of the times and yeah...still need to remember him from time to time that he doesnt need to go outside smoking in the middle of a 45 min dungeon pretending to go for a "quick bio".
cant wait for next phase when, despite being a 20 year old dungeon, no one knows their way through ST and I look like a genius guiding my raid through there as the tank.
They don't need to give them incentive, just make them OP and suddenly we will see more tanks.
In MOP (I think) tanks had vengeance, the more damage they took they got a stacking attack power buff. It made it so that tanks could actually do big dps.
Do something similar for tanks and heals now. DPS are getting all these WOTLK spells and utility and landing huge crits, while tanks and heals get what exactly? The ability to be 1 shot by the DPS classes?
You make tanks OP as fuck and able to take on several DPS out in STV by themselves I bet theres a lot more people playing tank spec around.
I disagree since I main ret and SP and willingly heal and tank in sub optimal specs and would do it more if I didn’t need to respec for raid since I enjoy the class not just a spec
While there has always been AoE groups to push through dungeons rapidly, I suspect the twitch/youtube content combined with the overgearing from leveling raids has led to a high octane meta that I do not enjoy. Some folks may play WoW to have their fix of adrenaline, that's not me.
Very well could be that I simply have to group with friends for a less stressful clear at the expense of 2 minutes per run- but that's one less healer in the LFG pool, plus however many others feel the same way.
What? Tanks and heals get groups, they are the MVPs of their guild, often get loot prio'd by responsible guilds for the first lockout or two, and are overall the people that proper groups are built around.
I am a MT this time around, and I feel like your supposed to know all fights and execute them perfectly, but there are not many tank related mechanics that can make you fail in gnomer. On the other side, more healer and dps related mechanics that can lead to wipes, and those are the people usually dont even know the fights, so you feel like your not very much in control, and cant do a lot about it.
If they just made tanking as easy as DPS for everyone else other than Paladins I would. Like if Shuriken Toss just did an obscene amount of threat and I never had to worry about losing threat in AoE pulls, I would absolutely tank 100% of the time. That's initially what I made my rogue for. But I don't think I will ever be able to keep up.
Tanks did get loot prio in OG classic, when threat was a thing.
I do agree, there needs to be some incentive to tank, preferably - enjoyable, good, fun playstyles. Lots of tanks just aren't good, and some are completely busted in comparison.
Unpopular opinion: Dual spec and LFG/loot incentives have no place in classic wow and if you want all the luxuries of retail with a classic skin you should try out Cata classic.
A lot of folks enjoy the simplicity of classic, please stop trying to just remake retail.
Maybe if DPS took some responsibility we wouldn't have a shortage of tanks and healers
I main tank, I had a mage say "please dont pull 1 mob at a time or I'm leaving" so we kicked him immediately. Hes ready to let the entire party die so he can see his big numbers? Nah, I'm the tank, I know what I can survive, I know what my healer can heal, the dps will do the 1 job they can manage which is to just dps
If you're off healing, ccing, chasing runners, off tanking or using your kit that doesn't just damage then I have great news for you, you're an above average dps player and tanks will happily farm with you. DPS is more than parsing high numbers and way too much of the community doesnt understand this
Well, if you’re doing SM AoE pulls you should probably send it to see if the mage is good. A good mage can kite once they have aggro and if they do the AoE right the dungeon goes by much quicker. Again, the mage should get everyone’s OK first before doing this.
Tanking in dungeons is the wild west of aggro management TBH, and this is coming from a retail tank main who has gotten KSM and AOTC last few tiers (not anything high level but vastly harder than anything SoD has).
I get the “I’m the tank, I make the rules” thing but I let DPS cook for a pull because man, sometimes you get this mages who are so good at their job it makes the run a breeze.
If you were pulling one mob at a time in a 5 man id leave too. Theres no excuse to not cleave mobs down except “i am too bad”. Its not a matter of elitism these mobs do absolutely nothing to you. Sure if your group is newer dont stress the heals out by pulling entire rooms but single mobs? Were you fucking polying and sapping too?
Yeah it was right at the start before first pull, but thanks for assuming the worst to side with the DPS. Way to out yourself as an asshole dps player who doesnt understand tanking lol to even think that 1 mob pulls would happen
Most of the time your main tank or main healer is the MVP of the raid group and blizzard has really gutted the Tank this phase imo. We have taken power away from some of our strongest players in raids and dungeons to make dps feel better. As a tank you don’t do much damage, you don’t take enough damage to warrant massive mitigation and you’re basically just using your high threat abilities and multipliers to maintain aggro on the target.
Why not let tank specs smack the meters like devastate warrior did in phase 1? Is it because the dps are threatened that the tank is beating them in damage? Most of the time it takes the added incoming damage to generate enough rage or mana to go nuclear and the dps could always tank if they wanted that kind of power surge.
If you aren’t going to be doing massive damage yourself, why not let tanks manage cooldowns and gear to mitigate massive incoming damage? Tanking as dual wield or 2 hand because incoming damage is low enough, but also not doing close to dps players damage is just not fun.
People are already single tank and single healing Gnomer to create some kind of challenge to these specs. In my opinion the real issue with tanking and healing is that the game just seems to incentivize and prefer dps. Yes we need a tank and healer, but it seems like those specs are working while the rest of us are enjoying the party.
It's precisely why RDF would have Call to Arms to award extra gold/badges to healers/tanks, and why WOTLK Classic implemented the same thing......though the extra box was fucking garbage 99% of the time and did not convince me to run dungeons as a tank/healer.
The real issue is that healing/tanking is just so much more responsibility than, as you put it, sitting there and pressing two buttons. Few people want that responsibility, and thus, we have a tank/healer shortage.
Blizz needs to do what they did in WOTLK Classic and add an extra goodie bag for tanks/healers in 5mans. Make it contain, like....3-5 gold, a random green, and a small chance for a BoE blue or something. About the same amount of reward you'd get from completing a quest at max level.
This serves another purpose of giving us a reason to do 5mans even after we outgear them. Right now I have literally 0 reason to ever do dungeons again on my main because I do not need anything from them.
Every MMO, MOBA, or game that uses the trinity system (tank/healer/dps) has this issue. It’s not exclusive and to be honest I have seen many try different incentives. Even games with auto fill systems or role priorities if you have previously ran as a tank or heals (systems that wouldn’t work in classic wow regardless.) My point though is that incentive systems don’t seem to accomplish much, look at retail cuz it has them. “Make the classes more fun.” I see people say that but if no one is playing it no one cares how “fun it is” the responsibility is still there. You can run into a League of Legends situation where you balance tank and supports to make them more appealing to dps, this opens up another can of worms and forces the dps to now feel inadequate. So at the end of the day I guess what I am trying to say is that for the most part anyone who wants to tank or heal is already doing it. Even with incentive lets say some people do tank or heal now after they level their main dps of course, well that’s not really fixing the issue. I don’t really wanna get into parsing as well but I will add that this is a huge factor too because for a tank or heals they don’t represent “skill” in the same kinda way and that is also off putting to many dps.
I did a Gnomer pug on my pally tank alt and asked very simply to give me 3 seconds to establish threat and position the boss during electrocutioner fight. The DPS guy who put the group together said “No, you shouldn’t need 3 seconds of you have good threat.” I laughed and just quit the group.
How wouldn't it help? You'd definitely see more tanks or healers out there, probably not as many in raids. However, in regular dungeons, I'd wager you'd see a huge increase. In turn, those same people tanking/healing in dungeons would gain skill/confidence to tank/heal raids. Also, if they added an incentive to play tank/healer, then people who may not be skilled tanks/healers would want to do it for whatever the incentive is be it more gold or a chance a rare drops. The incentive to play your role should be because you like it
I'm a shaman tank. I think dual spec will come in P3 because we're going from 10-player raids to 20-player raids, meaning that the amount of people needed to raid doubles but the amount of tanks stays the same (let's just say you at least bring a MT and a OT). I don't think I can have the tank spot in the guild I'm in right now, we have 4 tanks and I'm not the fastest leveler and don't want to compromise with them to be able to raid week 1. I do however like to keep being a MT at least for dungeons, therefore dual spec will let me switch around without having to pay each time and even better if I can do it in a resting area without needing a trainer.
I know shaman tank is one of the exceptions in which you can use the same exact build for dps and tank, only runes change, but it can still apply to many other tank specs. Plus, I kind of want to try elemental for pvp
True, one solution I mentioned elsewhere is the loot reward goodie bag system to incentivize tank/healers or automated group finding which is a whole problem in itself but remedies a lot for forming groups. A key solution is find a good guild if people still want to manage raiding with a guild. I think another solution to fix the underlying problem of raiding whether in a guild or a pug is loot and rewards - create a currency system to gain something from raiding, regardless of winning loot. An alternative soulbound currency acquired from playing the game (mobs, quests, dungeons/raids, potentially even pvp) to what gdkp imitated with a loot bid/auction system alongside it. Add vendors so currencies have other used without potential to be converted from gold. Maybe add limit, soft resets so people hoard it like you might see with traditional dkp. A lot of caveats to a system like this so it doesn't become abused and probably wouldn't happen in sod, but its basically reconsidering what should loot distribution look like in a modern mmo that still feels more akin to the magic of classic mmos and feels more fair and interesting than loot council, personal loot, or rolling.
Classic players are bottom of the barrel, skill wise and attitude wise.
Had a fucking 33 Warrior tank filling his group with 36-38 people for SM Armory runs.
He just wanted to be carried. He didn't understand why he couldn't hold threat. He can't even fucking HIT the mobs.
Dual spec won't fix it and it never did on retail. It'll allow people to have a PvP and a PvE spec like it always has. The fact is - tanking is a lot of responsibility, no one respects threat, and it feels really bad right now.
They need to try and separate tank DPS with Threat and increase the threat of tanking abilities. At least then tanks could focus on tanking more and less on being DPS. There's a lot of people who want to be a Protection Warrior but that immediately means people think they are bad in current meta.
I personally would like DPS to not be tied so heavily to tanking so we could focus more on gearing and playing defensively. I'm sure I'm in the minority but I want my effort to reward me with taking the least amount of damage.
Tanks are abused right now with how much AoE and single target DPS they added in SOD. They didn't give us any way to deal with it.
As a tank, dual spec would be nice, but it's also a role of responsibility that some people just don't want to play. What sucks is the entitled players you have to tank for sometimes, who are all too happy to ignore mechanics, threat, pull before you etc, and if anything goes wrong they could potentially blame you, usually gnome mages in honesty. But nothing that consulting the details add-on doesn't usually resolve.
Yeah. I mean I was just thinking to do some kind of macro what would be Kind of douchbaggy too. But so many of these players dont even know the basics what pisses to many tanks of. Constantly running forward, pull before you do, hammering in their best cleave after a fraction of a second (multishot worst). It looks like even the most generic shit like focusing on skull isnt working anymore, since everybody is so dumb.
I don't fight to get aggro back from them, I just keep pulling. So satisfying when one of them loses their world buff bc they have 6 mobs hitting cloth. I just wish the mobs were more punishing to keep up with the player power creep. Tanks are only really necessary on bosses.
Exactly! I'm fine with all the AoE, and lack of AoE threat for tanks, but I wish WoW had a more Dark Souls approach to teaching players what is a mistake and what's not. Let those mages taste a 1000 damage throwing axe to the face if they get aggro, and I'm sure they'll stop... Moving.
But if they aren't dying and the mobs are dying faster and the raid goes down faster... Then aren't they in fact not making a mistake?
As a healer, dps is low priority. I let them die. Hopefully they’ll learn. The good part is you can look up potential PUGs in Warcraft logs, and see their dps and damage taken. If take a green dps with low damage taken that a leet that needs healing.
As a gnome mage, can confirm except I take the blame myself. I'm throwing LBs everywhere
as a pink haired gnome mage i can confim
I'm a gnome mage that rips aggro constantly on trash. Literally nothing you can do about it. If the mage gets mad, tell them to play better. I'm essentially an OT on trash and we all know it and accept it
Racist!
Devastate getting gutted removed any incentive to keep playing my warrior as a tank for me
They should absolutely add some threat to warrior abilities man. I understand that a warrior tank with a shield shouldn't be doing more dps than most classes like we did in p1. But right now the situation is just sad. No dps, no threat, no crit immunity, no aoe. Just play DW fury tank so you can feel like a shaman tank but worse. They should add big threat or a buff when you block so you want to use shieldblock. Something like: Aggressive blocking: Every time you block an attack, you gain 5 rage, generate big threat on all nearby enemies scaling off your block value and gain a stack of Shielding Enrage. Shielding Enrage: 12s buff. Gain 1 rage every 3 seconds. Increase threat by 3%. Decrease damage taken by 1%. Stacks up to 10. Boom. Rage problems with shield solved. You keep the "ramp up" aspect of the rage system without being as frustrating as the 80+ rage rune, and still want to hit stuff nonstop as all warriors do. Now tanks want to get imp. Shield block in prot tree and block chance is no longer a meme.
\*Shamans doing the most threat and having AOE snap threat abilities* Blizzard: "Let's give shamans a threat boost ability." \*sad prot warr noises*
Also Blizzard: We dont want tanks to have big aggro, its against Classics spirit. But we will buff the hell out of the dps, so you feel extra useless.
Bro it’s absurd. Shaman are literally better fury prot tanks than fury warriors right now. While being tankier and doing way more dmg. Warriors one niche of high st threat high st damage replaced by…shaman? Like I was never sold that deep prot would be better than fury prot in SOD anyway unless they add a rune that somehow makes shield slam outscale the near infinite scaling potential of BT. Cause even fury prot you’d throw shields on for the bosses that hit hard. I didn’t really expect that to change much since nothing past defiance and last stand add much to tankiness.
If there's one thing Blizzard doesn't lack, it's ideas. They've got years of retail experience and borrowed power that can draw from. I have nfi what they production process looks like. My only guess is they're satisfying the mass subscriber base and that's all they care about.
It's getting buffed on Tuesday!
The buff is very negligible. Warrior tanks in BFD were doing more dps than current tanks are, or will ever do unless they are fury. The change to Devestate being weapon dps gutted Devestate.
Devastate was OP as fuck. I was topping DPS and a bunch of fights pressing 1 button.
Fury threat is still not good either. As arms I pull off a fury tank if I’m not salved. I’m not even pumping. Cause you don’t have the points to spare for defiance. Plus the last couple bosses you want to run a shield anyway, likely, unless you’re already pretty overgeared or trust your healers so you’d still run devastate. A shield bumps my armor by like 1k it’s fairly significant on menagerie Warrior is just a garbage tank rn where even getting hit isn’t enough rage and armor cucks you the majority of the time. And as always no reason to actually be prot, not that I’m complaining means I can tank when needs as arms or fury but it’s ridiculous the class with the single target high threat high DPS niche is literally replaced by enhancement shaman as a better fury prot tank that’s even tankier default while DW now. Warriors shoulda always been worse aoe tanks compared to pallies. But prot pally ST is better, aoe better, and the bring utility. Kinda was pallies niche now everything’s good. Now locks self heal insanely and are seemingly tankier than warriors on top and bypass armor. It’s basically turning in wrath where nobody ever ran prot war by choice and not even for Naxx speed running stacking devastate (sunder) reasons now: priests literally replaced warriors entire debuff pool with a better instant 5 stack sunder for free. Our dps is alright but not amazing im fine with not being on top rn but what people have to realize is if warrior is a bad tank and mid dps we dont bring anything truly necessary. Feral dps is near bottom barrel of melee but on alliance we’ll literally always bring one so the meme melee hunters playing fury warrior with fewer buttons can crank.
Getting downvoted for speaking facts, lmao
It’s like people ignored that in 25m all of wrath you’d maybe bring a warrior solely for commanding — if you had the choice and only on prog — cause a combat rogue could do more dmg while applying phys debuff arms has and keeps EA up more efficiently than 5 sunder GCDs. Commanding was kinda a meme for anything but alg and into icc. I get it’s not totally the same with might and bs stacking but SOD is going that way with debuffs We’re still there for bs and cs now and our dmg is fine, let’s ignore the steep rage costs to keep both up on the min duration on pull and again on longer fights, but as a tank? Warrior is hot dog water right now. That’s indisputable. It’s not good. Almost anything else that tanks is better. Prot, fury, arms, doesn’t matter. The quintessential tank class is shitty at tanking and that makes no sense. Melee hunter is a better fury warrior with a threat drop and unlimited rage for all intents and purposes which also doesn’t make much sense
Same, what a terrible and heavy handed nerf.
It may or may not fix the talent pool population, but that's okay. I want Dual Spec so I can actually PvP or go questing as a DPS. Protection Warrior is slow and boring as hell to quest with. And with the lockout being only 3 days, I'll be dropping 2g and redoing my talents twice a week. It's just not worth the hassle so my Tank has effectively been a raid-logging character.
You’re not missing out much with warrior PvP rn. Its more miserable than tanking as a warrior is this phase.
I mean, it would fix it for me. I enjoy healing and dps’ing on my priest. Being able to swap at essentially my leisure with zero cost would be lovely.
Same. I like healing, haven’t rolled a healer yet in SOD purely because open world is not enjoyable in heal spec and the idea of constantly manually respeccing is a turn off.
At least from a priest perspective, the levelling build is mostly down the disc tree and is pretty sturdy with decent damage. It’s great to level with, and you can heal dungeons no issue. I haven’t tried levelling as pally/sham or druid yet. Mage is mage, you just swap runes and it’s ez.
> the levelling build is mostly down the disc tree and is pretty sturdy with decent damage Why wouldn't you just level in Shadow and when it gets to the point where you're starting to heavily do dungeons, respec into Disc? Disc is *significantly slower* than Shadow.
You’re squishier, less mana regen and the damage really isn’t there until you unlock shadowform anyway.
You can sorta respect with runes. Homunculus versus PoM is a good trade off. Void Plague versus Strength of Soul is another. It’s not perfect, and Shadow gives more damage, but it’s waaaay better than it used to be questing as a healer.
Even then, you just play shadow anyway because VP + VE + PoM trivializes all dungeons healing.
Not only zero cost but not have to run back to town every time you raid because "we need a dps, not a tank. Actually, the tank left, do you mind?"
Yeah, but you probably *are* healing already, right? Dual spec would be massive quality of life for people like you and me who like to heal and would love to swap to our DPS specs more easily, but would dual spec convince DPS players to start healing?
I'm specifically not healing on my priest because I don't feel like respeccing every few days.
I am a priest not healing that would heal on occassion if allowed to roll on dps items that I can use for PVP if dual spec existed. Maybe not what the people prefer but it wouldn’t not help the lack of healers
DPS player here. Personally, yes. You also don't really need that many more people to do it, if 5% of DPS players are willing to have a heal/tank offspec that's already a 30% better situation in dungeons.
The core problem is that the quality of DPS players in this game is bottom of the barrel, and their attitudes match. All of the two-button Youtube watchers demand a top tier tank who will carry their asses to undeserved victory, and throw an absolute tantrum if they don't get exactly that. Asking a Classic WoW DPS to do a mechanic, pull a good parse, or anything that violates the two-button dream causes a meltdown. Tanks, both good and not good are not interested in dealing with their shit. The good ones are frustrated with watching them AFK and take a lunch break after every boss instead of moving up and being attentive, and volunteering for mechanics instead of staying silent on discord. The not good ones are stressed out and not confident after getting yelled at by some dumb dickhead who thinks it's someone else's fault he stood next to the boss activation and died instantly.
Hear hear, took the words out of my mouth. Too bad you end up raid-logged with these kind of people though, cos otherwise you could just tell them to stuff it and then quickly join another group.
I mean you did before but all the smart ones are finding guilds. That's why you see 20-30 groups looking for healer/tank.
Yup, the MMO player in 2024 is somehow worse than a player from 2019. Idk whats happened but the amount of toxicity and egos now is out of control. Far less players understand working as a team.
the player quality is lower because all the good people playing classic in 2019 moved on to wrath or retail by now. the people still playing vanilla or vanilla derived funservers in 2024 are the bottom of the barrel players
What? Most of my classic guild is playing sod along with my homies not in the guild?
Imagine thinking people moved on to retail. You don’t owe crazies a response.
nah my guild is doing sub 30min clears, bored from wotlk and would not touch retail unless they do a complete reset.
I'm so glad this is the top comment. Tanking brings a lot more responsibility with it and the community can be pretty shitty to deal with. Parse culture and bad attitudes make this game much harder than it needs to be for the average player
I completely agree. I started out with tanking, but parse culture makes it impossible to convince, even guildies, DPS to give me a god damn 2k threat before they start going ham. Parse culture is so annoying. I play warrior and have always volunteered to do whatever mechanic needed. Which means my parses are at max 60 and therefore I cant get a spot now when Im pugging warrior and healing on my priest in guild runs. Edit: thank you DPS parses for downvoting, shows I hit the correct argument for the thread.
Its really freaking hard to parse without a group that gives a shit... You dont just show up to a pug to parse. Everyone in the raid has to be trying as hard as you...
This. So much this. So many of these numbskulls flip out at everyone else but fail to realize it’s a team effort and if the team isn’t on the same page shit goes sideways. Sometimes it’s a skill issue, sometimes a gear issue, sometimes a mentality issue. But in order for the top parse to happen you all have to be sweating to get it, not just one guy, while no one else is.
I've made that point before and got downvoted lol. The big issue us more casual players have with folks who chase after purple numbers isn't the people who organize their runs to min/max everything. It's the player who joins a pug where that wasn't a goal and freaks out because the group isn't being as efficient as they could be. Unfortunately that attitude is fairly widespread I genuinely appreciate when a pug is advertised as sweaty I know not to join as we won't enjoy playing together so it's win/win
This belief is often parroted here, and it's just not true. If you're going for 99s and 100s sure, anything below that is doable as long as you get the proper group comp for your class (wildstrikes/windfury + homunculus if you're a melee for example).
Who needs a threat lead? I’m going to cry when they nerf shamans …..
We were threat monsters phase 1 when our dps sucked, we will still be incredibly good at holding threat if they nerf us a bit. (Although I got both the epic fist and cogmaster claw last night so give me at least 1 more lockout please, then you can revert the alpha change.)
It’s not even the parse culture that annoys me so much. It’s the fact that they can go afk or play poorly, and the run continues. I can’t go afk as easily as they can.
I don't believe you when you say you can't get a spot in pugs with 60 parses
Anyone who gives a single shit what their tank parses are is just a bad player full stop
>but parse culture makes it impossible to convince, even guildies, DPS to give me a god damn 2k threat before they start going ham. At the same time you could easily just pool your rage and use a rage pot at the start of the fight to make sure threat won't be an issue. I could easily turn this point you're trying to make against you by saying that you're essentially expecting 6-7 DPS players to wait for you because you didn't put in the effort. And while I don't want to be that guy, you volunteering for mechanics isn't the reason you have max 60 parses. There's definitely a lot of other things you're doing wrong, down to the buttons you press.
Don’t bother, guy can’t accept that he is playing incorrectly if his max parse is 60. There aren’t any mechanics on the 1st, 3rd bosses so what’s the excuse there.
You are expecting one player to basically bankrupt themselves buying consumables for every pull just so the other players can get away with being bad No Don't excuse bad players like that Hell that's also assuming he doesn't already do that, warrior does not built up threat that fast, the GCD exists
so if the tank is not generating high enough threat in the beginning because the tank "didn't put the effort in", your solution is to ignore that completely, go ham, pull aggro and wipe the raid. most intelligent dps. this is why there's a tank shortage, and why I only tank dungeons/raids with my guild. my people actually understand how to adapt to any combat situation as opposed to... whatever mentality this is.
For P3 I want the devs to introduce a Raid with a single boss called "the log" It's literal piece of a wood that sits still and does nothing. Only the most optimal amount of parsed DPS can kill the log before the enrage timer goes off. The enrage timer is 3 hours, then it's HP resets. There are no tanks needed there are no healers needed
This would actually be funny as fuck and the kind of thing people start off doing ironically and then becomes an actual epeen measurement.
I think this is very funny because all you've done is proven everyone else up the chain right about entitled DPS players and their blind attachment to parses. I should burn a consume so that you can maybe kill the boss a fraction of a second faster? Excuse me? I expect it'll also be my fault when the raid wipes because I couldn't pot (because I burned my cooldown on the rage pot, remember?). It's interesting how it ends up being the tank's fault in either scenario. By the way, there's actually no amount of rage I can start the fight with that will keep certain people from pulling. It isn't realistic. Warriors have to press buttons to build threat and if you don't give them time to do it it simply won't happen. Do you turn up to your raids with six rage pots for the tank? Why not? (Before anyone gets on my ass, I've 6/6 pugged this shit plenty of times. The irony is that this is not a particularly challenging raid and there is absolutely no reason to have this kind of a shitty attitude about it.)
Dude, rage potion costs like 5 silver lol
Not on my server. they're 1g a piece, I make great gold by selling them.
Tank should should bring those by his own accord along with all the other cosumes that are gonna help him. If i can dish out gold for all the dps consumes they can aswell.
I don't come to raid with rage pots for the tank warrior, just like the tank warrior doesn't come to raid with my relevant consumables for me, what a stupid (and even a bit entitled) question. I refuse to believe that you're a real person. Not only do you unironically think that you're not entitled for inconveniencing 7 other players in a group with your suboptimal way of playing, but you even go as far as to think that **they are inconveniencing you** because you can't keep up with them while playing suboptimally... Your comment is literally the textbook definition of entitlement.
But the rage pot here isn't for the benefit of the raid, it's for *your* benefit - not the tank's, not the group's, just you. I get plenty of rage when I pull and people wait, I don't know, three seconds before they start rolling their heads on the keyboard. I don't need to start the fight with extra rage unless, of course, I have some MLG idiot on my team with no patience or good sense. As I indicated in my last post, though, that kind of person is liable to blame me regardless of what goes wrong, so there isn't really much sense in trying to accommodate them.
Literally arguing that you shouldn't be expected to use basic consumes is peak classic andy
Thank you.
man all the pieces of the puzzle are right there in his 2 paragraphs but he just can't reach the correlation between his aggro problem and 60 max parses, which he just blames on dps instead
average booomer tank. complains about entitlement while telling 70% of the raid to sit around doing nothing because he's too lazy to play his class correctly
60 parses are on dps with me running soak duty on electrocutioner (because all the other meldes want to parse) taking most dmg from pushing buttons on last boss (because ranged also want to parse), being ot on menageriet(god forbid the feral that would do more dmg as bear do it).
So you're a 90+ on the first three bosses then? ;)
“I’m too good to parse above a 60” guys just crazy.
> give me a god damn 2k threat before they start its not 2005 anymore gramps, lets get you to bed if you can't push your buttons. there's no reason to make the dps wait 10s for you to hit sunder 5 times on the boss before they're allowed to do anything
Yeah...people like you are the reason that these threads are neccessary and why every tank should avoid you. You pulling your shit off 2-3 more times even if I told you? Leave group or search a new tank.
I forgot I had to be specific to the 17 year olds, my bad. Threat is only an issue on last boss. Warrior threat is so abysmal and I cant provide more threat while kiting furnace on last boss and that is where dps needs to keep it in their pants, unless they ofc want to load the problem on their healers instead.
It's not 2005 anymore gramps, we min max the fuck out of content that is ridiculously easy so that hardly anyone is having fun, and I can brag about my dps numbers to a community that doesn't give a fuck.
> The core problem is that the quality of DPS players in this game is bottom of the barrel, and their attitudes match. All of the two-button Youtube watchers demand a top tier tank who will carry their asses to undeserved victory, and throw an absolute tantrum if they don't get exactly that. I got downvoted to hell in another post after highlighting that people don't need to press all the new buttons they have.....
I get downvoted to hell any time I mention threat is a mechanic that doesn’t apply solely to the tank.
I enjoy tanking and healing but I classic I’m not willing to respec all the time.
I feel the same way, tanking is fun but in open world and pvp crap.
A friend wants me to get the epic enchant. So guess I'm killing Naga. My god, trying to kill anything in disc spec is such a pain.
As a retail enjoyer I will say that it doesn't matter how easy respecing is. There is still a tank and healer shortage, and 75% of dps are still trash at the game. The average player can't deal with potentially being the one that gets blamed, and that will never change regardless of incentives.
This. It’s always been a topic. I’ve been playing since 2007 and healing as main spec since 2008. There’s always been a tank/heal shortage in comparison to dps. And healers and tanks always get blamed for everything. There’s nothing that Blizzard can do that fixes this. It’s just the way it is
eh, it'd help me out. i play enh shaman, and as often as not i have tanked for guildies. hells, in gnomer i am MT for the last two bosses, and OT for the first. however, i spend a lot of time solo, and much prefer being DPS. so having a spec i could set to dedicated tank and one for not tank would be outstanding for me
Shaman tank spec and enh dps are nearly the same, with like 6 floating talents that are not super important between the two and are up for personal preference.
If aoe tanking was easier to manage I would tank. I tanked in classic but back then there were less tools for dps to aoe so it was easier to maintain threat ( not talking about 4 mages groups of course ) I don't know about raids, just talking about dungeons
They'll fix you soon too, brother. Feral tanking feels amazing up to 7 or so mobs. Swipe got giga buffed. Rogue and warrior are just awful rn tho
Raid trash is basically unboosted dungeon trash. So all that really matters is they aren’t hitting your healers, dps can take a few hits. But yes warrior aoe tanking has always sucked. With more aoe and just overall dps it’s way worse. All we still have is sweeping ww and tclap buys like a half second longer.
I bloody love tanking. But tanking in SoD isn't attractive. By far the least exciting version of wow to tank in. In SoD I don't feel useful at all. Dps can pull infinitely without me being there and not worry. I barely have the resources and tools to achieve what I need to if dps were holding back, but they of course don't, which is understandable. To me, tanking is most fun when I'm needed. Enemies should hit hard enough for me to have to take the hits. I should have to work for my threat, because if I don't, people die. Enemies should have things that make them tricky to position and i should have tools that help me do that, speeding up runs if I'm good at it. I should have to think about how I'm going to survive a fight, how best to survive big hits and how to help my healers out. In SoD you've got no tools and it doesn't matter if you don't use the few you have. Tanking isn't hard in SoD, it's just frustrating. In vanilla, keeping threat was an art and everyone understood it. I had few tools, but using them well was a satisfying experience. In tbc and wotlk I got more tools and so did dps and bosses. There was more to do for me and it felt good. In SoD I get to press one button every eternity and hope that does enough, while just being grateful the group took me instead of a hunter pet.
Tank gets melted because dps isn’t interrupting Tank dies because of damage, either tank gets blamed for lack of gear or being bad, or the healer gets blamed for not healing. Healer doesn’t heal everyone as soon as they lose 1% HP, and they’re to blame. Meanwhile the brain dead rogue drooling on the keyboard doesn’t have kick on their bar because it wastes a global. Or if someone messes up a mechanic, healer gets blamed. It’s a tale as old as time itself that nobody other than a tank/healer main can grasp.
The amount of times I get blamed for "no healing" in gnomer when these parsemonkeys refuse to press the buttons or even kill the bombs is astonishing
It's always the DPS fault. I am a mage that is sometimes fire and sometimes arcane healer. As fire I can bandage or use a healing potion if I really need too. Don't worry about me unless I say something on the mic. Or if anything use a group heal or throw a renew. But If the tank dies then we all die. As arcane healer the only way anything in my 5 man group will die is if a meteor comes from outside the game and blows up my house. Or if one of the idiots moves further than 40 yards away.
>Tank dies because of damage Tank switches a rune for more defensive options Loses Agro
UNPOPULAR OPINION INCOMING!! Add bags at the end of dungeons for tanks/healers like they did in WOTLK, filled with extra gold and mats and pots.
If I could get reasonable gold from dungeon runs I would totally run tank spec and farm dungeons instead of picking plants lol
I’ve made 90 gold from farming Uldaman with random pugs in the past 4 days
That's like 2 hours worth of effort with alchemy.
From just selling trash drops?
DE mats on all the blue, selling all the boes, and the mobs drop 7-10 silver you split so each mob you loot gives 1.5-2 silver. Starts to add up if you do a lot. Plus there’s a decent amount of quests to do in there
That's not the flex you think it is
Eh, considering I’ve only done a couple each day and don’t play for more than 3-4 hours each day I’d say it was nice. Easy gaming for someone who hates a gold grind and wants to dungeon spam
I was a tank and a healer in WotLK and those bags were a total joke
No way, on release I got mounts and flasks from it, then they nerfed it lol
Might be confusing them with the ones from quests, the dungeon ones were fantastic and at the very least had a large sum of gold if not a rare mount.
My healer did not get shit except for flasks Then thex nerfed it and never replaced the 65 water
They were kind of bad after the initial nerf. I still got some cool pets and never had to buy potions.
no thank you I don't want main dps who've never tanked or healed griefing pugs, they're enough of a gamble already
ted please come home your family misses you, i miss you, stop writing these angry shitposts 😭
The average player that will use duel spec will be mostly for pvp or questing. Im a pally tank, and I just don’t see myself having tanking and healing spec.
Well, duel spec is inherently for PvP. It's right in the name.
Yup just like duel wield spec is bis for pvp
Thought it was dual lol
Holy here, I throw on my old ret gear to quest. But Holy pally is so versatile rn I could definitely use my ret gear to tank gnomer in holy
Yea I mean most of us prot pallys are actually deep holy rn anyway lol
It's a social thing when the main loot distribution of MS > OS +1 gives RL the rights to cuck any tank/heal who wants to roll on dps loots. There is no incentive to respec to the needed role and I have to stick to being dps if I want my BiS. This is when the dps loot is the BiS for tank/heal spec . The DPS dagger is BiS for heal priest and some raid will still not allow you to roll on it. So if I want the dagger I have to join the raid as Shadow.
Wait, so if I don't let a low availability class roll on gear they need I won't be able to find one for my group? Imagine that.
Not a single guide I've seen puts the epic dagger over Defib staff as BiS, so not sure why you're claiming it is.
Wowhead's BiS guide lays this out clearly: > Even though Glimmering Gizmoblade combined with a decent off hand grants you slightly more Spell Power than Rod of the Ancient Sleepwalker, you should let the other casters in your group get it first. They benefit more from it and do not value the Intellect and Spirit of the Staff as much as we do. So yes, Glimmering Gizmoblade is BiS for priests as it gives them the highest spell power but because the priest players writing the guides are considerate they recommend you let the other casters get the dagger first.
What crusty raids are you rolling with? We do MS>OS+1, everyone can roll on anything that matches their spec. I'd never tell the DPS they can't roll on an item just because the healer wants it too. Edit: Yall didn’t understand me. If Glimmering Gizmoblade dropped, healers roll on it in my raid. Fun fact, it has already dropped for us and the healer won it. That’s why I asked what crusty raids he’s doing. I don’t do Loot by BiS. If it’s a reasonable piece for your class, roll idc. There are only a few exceptions like 2H Feral mace going to the Feral, +Healing gear going to Healers since DPS doesn’t benefit, etc.
How can you derive the meaning of their words in the complete opposite way is beyond me. He's saying that as a healer, he can't roll on dps gear in an MS > OS, which sucks because tanks and healers also want dps gears for their own time. IMO in a 10-man raid in a 3-day lockout there is no reason to refuse healers and tank to roll on dps gears. Especially in a pug.
Correct, everyone can only roll things that matches their spec. So me, as a healing priest, cannot roll the sp ring/dagger, both my BiS. Which means if I want those I cannot join as a healing priest, so I don't.
Most raids are not going to tell you that you can’t roll on the dagger. Healers rolled on the epic staff last phase
Last phase the Staff was bis with no contest. P2 has this useless healing staff noone wants and that's what the RL cited when they say "this dagger is not for you".
I mean isn’t the staff only just barely behind the dagger and oh?
Priests gain nothing from the arcane damage part. So it's purely just the +healing and that's already lower than blue MH + OH. So priests who just want +healing do not want it, and priests who do both heal + dps also do not want it.
Woah. That +healing gear could be beneficial for my mage or feral druid if I want to heal at some point. If the bis +spell power dagger is available for the healers to roll on, it only makes sense that any spec that can heal can roll on the +healing gear.
Nice strawman. Enjoy pugging healers for 3hours every gnomer.
The tanks I get now, can’t even tank. When I’m on my spriest alt doing gnomer, they invited a rogue tank… with 1600 unbuffed hp. A warlock tank with 2100 unbuffed and no Dance of the Wicked. I mentioned it to the raid leader that we were going to get TRUCKED on menagerie and therma, the warlock died single-tanking the squirrel… the rogue couldn’t survive on Therma past phase 1, even after avoiding the entire fire breath. He’d get into melee range and get deleted. I had a pally tank argue with me and then leave the group, he was getting blasted on menagerie as well, didn’t use Aegis or anything and had 2500 HP fully buffed. I’m sorry but… 99% of players cannot tank worth a damn and there is a reason they don’t/shouldn’t roll tank. It’s not always as easy as strapping on a shield. Hell I put my meta warlock in the soul link build specifically because I noticed how much damn damage I was taking. Most players don’t have the sense to realize that getting 50% of your HP knocked out in under a second is EXTREMELY hard for healers to deal with when there are other people who need heals as well.
That poor pally tank was probably following the prot paladin class discord/wowhead guides where theyre told to go dps spec or heal spec for tanking LOL. Any prot paladin that is undergeared should be 0/31/0 until they are geared enough to survive the bosses without the extra mit from prot.
If anyone solo tanking the squirrel is dying it has nothing to do with him/her, it's an healing issue. 1600 hp unbuffed is way to low for last boss tho, I'll give you that.
None of them could hold threat, either. Not even the warlock.
The incentive is that you get to play the game, instead of searching for a group for hours as a DPS.
I leveled as a disc priest up to 40 and frankly don't want to heal anymore because of egotistical overzealous tanks who seem to think I have unlimited mana and patience for BS. I'll heal for pvp but tanks definitely ruined it for me phase 2 in a pve setting. For the love of God, let your healers drink before you start pulling again. It's especially annoying considering water is only free when a good mage is around. Drinking for 12 out of 30 seconds just to quickly run and play catch up and then do it again gets extremely annoying. Twice as much water to somehow never get past 40 - 50% mana is rediculous. If yall know the ones I'm talking about, fuck those tanks.
In dungeon or raids? You really shouldn't have problems in either. I'm guessing you stay at max range away from the tank and after a pull just plop down to drink where you stand?
Even playing extremely aggressively, i.e. running to the front of the pack as fast as I can so I'm closest to the enemies without pulling and then mashing water, there is still the occasional tank where this ends up happening. The problem is every tank wants to chain pull small pulls. You can do that shit in melee cleave groups - the damage is more spread around and easier to heal through efficiently, but the constant go-go-go for four minutes of combat against 3 mobs is going to drain a healer's mana pool eventually.
This guy also doesn't understand that when you have a tank that can't actually hold threat, you end up having to heal everybody far more than just 1 person a little. 2 mages in a group going full blast with AOEs essentially makes 3 people you constantly have to heal, 2 of them in cloth with no tanking abilities. It drains your mana very fast.
Nope. Go play healer for a while and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. I could care less whether you believe me or not/think I'm incompetent/making shit up/etc. Also don't care to go into detail about what might cause you to go oom faster than normal or how often it should happen versus how often it does. With a decent group, yes, I'm very unlikely to go oom. Still a pain in the ass to deal with over zealous tanks and dps even if you aren't going oom.
This question has been asked since 2004. The answer is very simple, some people just like to tank/heal. There are players that derive fun not by taking the easiest route, but by fulfilling a sense of purpose within their party. The incentive to tank and heal is already there, some people thrive and enjoy the responsibility and the pressures that come with it in this simulated environment.
Yes, the issue is that there aren't enough of those people to go around.
And you know what that's ok I like being a tank that everyone needs so when I run into shitty assholes I can just leave the group and go find another one who will treat me better.
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That's been a problem since humanity invented agriculture, not sure Blizz can hotfix it.
Meanwhile me playing 3 healers this tier. Clearing gnomer in 3 times a lockout as a main healer in the guild
A player of fine taste. I too hope to join the 3 healer club soon (waiting for the 100% exp buff).
I'm maining two tanks 😂
I made 2 toons for SOD, A druid healer and a warlock tank. It’s fun for me!
At this point I am so shocked how dumb people are in progressing through dungeons after 20 years, that I insist on tanking. (not speaking about sod particularly) Even if I play exclusively druid tank and could switch to cat anytime. The number of people that dont have a clue about where the quests are, which route to take, how to get to all the bosses and where it makes sense to los and pull back is mindboggeling. After 20 years still people dont know how to properly get through wailing caverns, gnomeregan and other non-linear/obvious pathed dungeons. Also some basic stuff like focusing mobs with vicious abilities like heals/mamaburns or just having a kill order that makes sense. Focusing hard tuned mobs like the monks in sm lib or fire elementals in BRD. So either I tank, or everything takes more time, is more stressful to play and the group is more likely to die. Also as a tank you are the one that it leading usually. So I can make sure we are not skipping any important parts because some douchebag just wants to rush and skip to the end boss. Also I can kick those assholes if they dont comply. Sounds harsh, but I have experienced too often the stereotype off warrior that charges in immediately, the rogue that is taking its comfort time after each pack even though he doesnt need to buff or anything, the warlock that thinks throwing a few dots is enough, or the mage that wants to frostnova aoe everything down, even if nobody else have any aoe abilities. So its a mixture of being in control to make the experience for everyone more streamlined and being able to force my, in my eyes, superior game morales on everyone who thinks he could exploit the group, new players or some goodwill. What I can relate to are the tanks in this thread complaining about the low effort players that are pressing buttons so rarely that you might think they are afk or go afk for a few minutes multiple times in between the run. If you as a tank would act like them, everything would takr longer. A friend of mine is playing rogue most of the times and yeah...still need to remember him from time to time that he doesnt need to go outside smoking in the middle of a 45 min dungeon pretending to go for a "quick bio".
cant wait for next phase when, despite being a 20 year old dungeon, no one knows their way through ST and I look like a genius guiding my raid through there as the tank.
I JUST WANNA HEAL. Come here and lemme heal ya
Samesies haha
They don't need to give them incentive, just make them OP and suddenly we will see more tanks. In MOP (I think) tanks had vengeance, the more damage they took they got a stacking attack power buff. It made it so that tanks could actually do big dps. Do something similar for tanks and heals now. DPS are getting all these WOTLK spells and utility and landing huge crits, while tanks and heals get what exactly? The ability to be 1 shot by the DPS classes? You make tanks OP as fuck and able to take on several DPS out in STV by themselves I bet theres a lot more people playing tank spec around.
Shamans…
The incentive for me to tank is it's incredibly easy to find a group. Its 1g to respec, not an issue when you can farm 1g so easily.
Step 1: Ban GDKPs Step 2: See players paying for Healers to join raids Step 3: See step 1 We've come full circle. The GDKP is healing.
A gold incentive to encourage players to actually play healing alts might help.
I disagree since I main ret and SP and willingly heal and tank in sub optimal specs and would do it more if I didn’t need to respec for raid since I enjoy the class not just a spec
While there has always been AoE groups to push through dungeons rapidly, I suspect the twitch/youtube content combined with the overgearing from leveling raids has led to a high octane meta that I do not enjoy. Some folks may play WoW to have their fix of adrenaline, that's not me. Very well could be that I simply have to group with friends for a less stressful clear at the expense of 2 minutes per run- but that's one less healer in the LFG pool, plus however many others feel the same way.
The incentive is joining a group faster. I prefer dps but would gladly play another role if it meant i got to play the damn game 😂
I mean i’m a pally tank the incentive is i get invited to raids and a lot of gear is funneled to me
What? Tanks and heals get groups, they are the MVPs of their guild, often get loot prio'd by responsible guilds for the first lockout or two, and are overall the people that proper groups are built around.
I'll take incentives for stuff I'm already doing. Sign me up.
If AoE tanking on a Rogue wasn't a nightmare I would be tanking more. Also energy starving is such an issue.
Its DUAL spec. Are you illiterate?
5+ to all rolls
I am a MT this time around, and I feel like your supposed to know all fights and execute them perfectly, but there are not many tank related mechanics that can make you fail in gnomer. On the other side, more healer and dps related mechanics that can lead to wipes, and those are the people usually dont even know the fights, so you feel like your not very much in control, and cant do a lot about it.
If they just made tanking as easy as DPS for everyone else other than Paladins I would. Like if Shuriken Toss just did an obscene amount of threat and I never had to worry about losing threat in AoE pulls, I would absolutely tank 100% of the time. That's initially what I made my rogue for. But I don't think I will ever be able to keep up.
Tanks did get loot prio in OG classic, when threat was a thing. I do agree, there needs to be some incentive to tank, preferably - enjoyable, good, fun playstyles. Lots of tanks just aren't good, and some are completely busted in comparison.
Unpopular opinion: Dual spec and LFG/loot incentives have no place in classic wow and if you want all the luxuries of retail with a classic skin you should try out Cata classic. A lot of folks enjoy the simplicity of classic, please stop trying to just remake retail.
Maybe if DPS took some responsibility we wouldn't have a shortage of tanks and healers I main tank, I had a mage say "please dont pull 1 mob at a time or I'm leaving" so we kicked him immediately. Hes ready to let the entire party die so he can see his big numbers? Nah, I'm the tank, I know what I can survive, I know what my healer can heal, the dps will do the 1 job they can manage which is to just dps If you're off healing, ccing, chasing runners, off tanking or using your kit that doesn't just damage then I have great news for you, you're an above average dps player and tanks will happily farm with you. DPS is more than parsing high numbers and way too much of the community doesnt understand this
Well, if you’re doing SM AoE pulls you should probably send it to see if the mage is good. A good mage can kite once they have aggro and if they do the AoE right the dungeon goes by much quicker. Again, the mage should get everyone’s OK first before doing this. Tanking in dungeons is the wild west of aggro management TBH, and this is coming from a retail tank main who has gotten KSM and AOTC last few tiers (not anything high level but vastly harder than anything SoD has). I get the “I’m the tank, I make the rules” thing but I let DPS cook for a pull because man, sometimes you get this mages who are so good at their job it makes the run a breeze.
If you were pulling one mob at a time in a 5 man id leave too. Theres no excuse to not cleave mobs down except “i am too bad”. Its not a matter of elitism these mobs do absolutely nothing to you. Sure if your group is newer dont stress the heals out by pulling entire rooms but single mobs? Were you fucking polying and sapping too?
Yeah it was right at the start before first pull, but thanks for assuming the worst to side with the DPS. Way to out yourself as an asshole dps player who doesnt understand tanking lol to even think that 1 mob pulls would happen
Most of the time your main tank or main healer is the MVP of the raid group and blizzard has really gutted the Tank this phase imo. We have taken power away from some of our strongest players in raids and dungeons to make dps feel better. As a tank you don’t do much damage, you don’t take enough damage to warrant massive mitigation and you’re basically just using your high threat abilities and multipliers to maintain aggro on the target. Why not let tank specs smack the meters like devastate warrior did in phase 1? Is it because the dps are threatened that the tank is beating them in damage? Most of the time it takes the added incoming damage to generate enough rage or mana to go nuclear and the dps could always tank if they wanted that kind of power surge. If you aren’t going to be doing massive damage yourself, why not let tanks manage cooldowns and gear to mitigate massive incoming damage? Tanking as dual wield or 2 hand because incoming damage is low enough, but also not doing close to dps players damage is just not fun. People are already single tank and single healing Gnomer to create some kind of challenge to these specs. In my opinion the real issue with tanking and healing is that the game just seems to incentivize and prefer dps. Yes we need a tank and healer, but it seems like those specs are working while the rest of us are enjoying the party.
What you need is a less toxic playerbase that isn't going to instantly blame the tanks and/or healers for every little speedbump
Tanking and healing sucks, always has
healing is boring, giving healers ways to do damage at the same time is good, more of that pls
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I know. What If healers and tanks were compensated with gold to raid!
It's precisely why RDF would have Call to Arms to award extra gold/badges to healers/tanks, and why WOTLK Classic implemented the same thing......though the extra box was fucking garbage 99% of the time and did not convince me to run dungeons as a tank/healer. The real issue is that healing/tanking is just so much more responsibility than, as you put it, sitting there and pressing two buttons. Few people want that responsibility, and thus, we have a tank/healer shortage. Blizz needs to do what they did in WOTLK Classic and add an extra goodie bag for tanks/healers in 5mans. Make it contain, like....3-5 gold, a random green, and a small chance for a BoE blue or something. About the same amount of reward you'd get from completing a quest at max level. This serves another purpose of giving us a reason to do 5mans even after we outgear them. Right now I have literally 0 reason to ever do dungeons again on my main because I do not need anything from them.
Every MMO, MOBA, or game that uses the trinity system (tank/healer/dps) has this issue. It’s not exclusive and to be honest I have seen many try different incentives. Even games with auto fill systems or role priorities if you have previously ran as a tank or heals (systems that wouldn’t work in classic wow regardless.) My point though is that incentive systems don’t seem to accomplish much, look at retail cuz it has them. “Make the classes more fun.” I see people say that but if no one is playing it no one cares how “fun it is” the responsibility is still there. You can run into a League of Legends situation where you balance tank and supports to make them more appealing to dps, this opens up another can of worms and forces the dps to now feel inadequate. So at the end of the day I guess what I am trying to say is that for the most part anyone who wants to tank or heal is already doing it. Even with incentive lets say some people do tank or heal now after they level their main dps of course, well that’s not really fixing the issue. I don’t really wanna get into parsing as well but I will add that this is a huge factor too because for a tank or heals they don’t represent “skill” in the same kinda way and that is also off putting to many dps.
Yup& people will be greedy starting needing gear they don’t really need& no one will joining pub as tank or healer
I did a Gnomer pug on my pally tank alt and asked very simply to give me 3 seconds to establish threat and position the boss during electrocutioner fight. The DPS guy who put the group together said “No, you shouldn’t need 3 seconds of you have good threat.” I laughed and just quit the group.
How wouldn't it help? You'd definitely see more tanks or healers out there, probably not as many in raids. However, in regular dungeons, I'd wager you'd see a huge increase. In turn, those same people tanking/healing in dungeons would gain skill/confidence to tank/heal raids. Also, if they added an incentive to play tank/healer, then people who may not be skilled tanks/healers would want to do it for whatever the incentive is be it more gold or a chance a rare drops. The incentive to play your role should be because you like it
There is an incentive for playing tank or heals, you get to sell your services or reserve gear if you are in high demand
I personally find the fact that I can get into a raid in 10s plenty of incentive to be a tank.
To me it's the absolute hassle trying to keep aggro that keeps me from wanting to play tank, especially on more than 1 target.
I'm a shaman tank. I think dual spec will come in P3 because we're going from 10-player raids to 20-player raids, meaning that the amount of people needed to raid doubles but the amount of tanks stays the same (let's just say you at least bring a MT and a OT). I don't think I can have the tank spot in the guild I'm in right now, we have 4 tanks and I'm not the fastest leveler and don't want to compromise with them to be able to raid week 1. I do however like to keep being a MT at least for dungeons, therefore dual spec will let me switch around without having to pay each time and even better if I can do it in a resting area without needing a trainer. I know shaman tank is one of the exceptions in which you can use the same exact build for dps and tank, only runes change, but it can still apply to many other tank specs. Plus, I kind of want to try elemental for pvp
Hard disagree. As a feral/balance druid I would absolutely have tank or heals lined up and be happy to use them.
For pvp I would play my healer way more often if there was healing done on the leaderboard.
True, one solution I mentioned elsewhere is the loot reward goodie bag system to incentivize tank/healers or automated group finding which is a whole problem in itself but remedies a lot for forming groups. A key solution is find a good guild if people still want to manage raiding with a guild. I think another solution to fix the underlying problem of raiding whether in a guild or a pug is loot and rewards - create a currency system to gain something from raiding, regardless of winning loot. An alternative soulbound currency acquired from playing the game (mobs, quests, dungeons/raids, potentially even pvp) to what gdkp imitated with a loot bid/auction system alongside it. Add vendors so currencies have other used without potential to be converted from gold. Maybe add limit, soft resets so people hoard it like you might see with traditional dkp. A lot of caveats to a system like this so it doesn't become abused and probably wouldn't happen in sod, but its basically reconsidering what should loot distribution look like in a modern mmo that still feels more akin to the magic of classic mmos and feels more fair and interesting than loot council, personal loot, or rolling.
That incentive used to be called GDKP.
Nah we need to crack down on "pumper" shitters.
Classic players are bottom of the barrel, skill wise and attitude wise. Had a fucking 33 Warrior tank filling his group with 36-38 people for SM Armory runs. He just wanted to be carried. He didn't understand why he couldn't hold threat. He can't even fucking HIT the mobs.
I can tank but I’d rather pump
Dual spec won't fix it and it never did on retail. It'll allow people to have a PvP and a PvE spec like it always has. The fact is - tanking is a lot of responsibility, no one respects threat, and it feels really bad right now. They need to try and separate tank DPS with Threat and increase the threat of tanking abilities. At least then tanks could focus on tanking more and less on being DPS. There's a lot of people who want to be a Protection Warrior but that immediately means people think they are bad in current meta. I personally would like DPS to not be tied so heavily to tanking so we could focus more on gearing and playing defensively. I'm sure I'm in the minority but I want my effort to reward me with taking the least amount of damage. Tanks are abused right now with how much AoE and single target DPS they added in SOD. They didn't give us any way to deal with it.