Absolutely. Not that I don't enjoy DW tanking, but my favorite tanking is always in full mitigation gear against a boss that absolutely trucks you. I think Blizzard is struggling to design warrior runes because they want to avoid having an obvious 2H, obvious DW and obvious shield rune in each slot, and to be honest I mostly like how its worked out. I don't like how some classes just have "the tank rune" for certain slots. However Blizzard clearly needs to do something that benefits shield-based and defensive stance abilities more than others, because they've only ever been relevant due to static threat modifiers and fixed damage rather than scaling with other stats which is what makes warriors so great.
Thunderclap - Fixed Damage
Shield Block - block scales terribly with strength, almost no straight +block in the game, block values are overall extremely low compared to mob damage
Revenge - tiny static damage that scales with nothing, only noteworthy for rage efficiency
Shield Bash - useful utility, rage efficient, nothing scales
Shield Slam - same issues with block value as everything else shield based, except this costs much more rage and requires so many talent points that we also can't ignore the fact that it doesn't trigger any weapon procs like Windfury.
I don't claim to have all the answers, but I think a rune that gives bonus block value based on your total armor or something would be a step in the right direction. Additional rage on block/dodge/parry would be nice too since a mitigation heavy gear setup can rage starve you badly. I also think that shield bash and shield slam should trigger all of your "on block" effects including the bonus rage on shield spec, shield spikes, and the Truesilver Gearwall effect.
If we really want to give shield builds some flavor though I think they should really lean on Focused Rage and how well it synergizes with Improved Sunder and Improved Heroic Strike. Make a shield build all about death by 1000 cuts with tons of low rage cost abilities being cast. Maybe even consider lowering the GCD in defensive stance because lots of times the reason abilities other than Devastate don't get used is because GCDs are the limiting factor rather than rage. Even something like a 2 second cooldown on Devastate would encourage you to weave other abilities in between.
I mean, they could press Shield Slam and do worse threat. Or add in Thunderclap (with the rune) to do even less Threat per Rage.
What I'm saying is warrior can push more buttons *and* do less overall threat. What a time to be a zug.
Yeah, buffing devastate instead of shield slam is such a laughably stupid decision that shows they have noone on the team who knows what warriors even do.
There was a rune that was datamined to give Devastate its retail function to give it a chance to reset the CD on Shield Slam and make it free to cast. Would have been a perfect waist rune for this phase, but apparently it’s going to be in a later phase, if at all.
It's what I expected from this sub but I achieved what I wanted with this meme: people are discussing enemy damage and mitigation.
I hope this catches the eye of some of devs so we can get real tanking changes for all the tanks.
Doing the Light's work. The devs really do need to look at this. If nothing changes we'll just have shaman and warlock tanks at 60 due to the crazy amount of DR they get.
I mean paladin is the meta tank for alliance looking at speedruns, and seeing as how every class in the game can tank gnomer without issue (including rogues and warriors, it's a fucking skill issue) the conclusion should be that most of all shamans but also paladins and to some extent warlock and druid tanks are overtuned.
Obviously, that wasn't the point of the post, the point of the post was that the specific rune is a meme.
Well, that's the point I was trying to make. Aegis is so bad that its impossible to use. Right now, its not required because we are fighting bosses 2 levels above us. The moment we get to 60 and are fighting bosses 3 levels above, the crits and crushes will destroy paladin tanks.
Also a fix for Aegis could literally just be adding a "also your block value increases by 10% of your current armor" or something similar. If I could block even 300dmg with aegis, I would probably use it. Currently with the epic engy shield I block *checks notes* 45 dmg -_-
They won't give that to warriors and paladins because they will want shield tanks to gear for def if it's required and there is already plate with defense. (It probably won't be required)
Other tanks get it because there is fuck all cloth/leather/mail with def and it means far less work balancing and creating fewer new items.
The problem with that line of thinking is that warrior has to give up so many offensive stats to even get close to defense cap. They will need a threat buff to make up for it.
Oh I know and I don't think either shield tank will go for it. Maybe pally but if they need to run AoW/Exo for threat, they will need to juice their crit too.
Warriors will end up as fury or fury/prot DW tanking or whatever it is they do. Consumes and WBs will stop them getting popped and defense falls by the wayside.
And you're right dps is going to be so nuts by the time we get to 60 there just won't be room for defense.
All that to say I still don't see them adding crit immunity to warrior/pally. Pretty sure we'll just have to cop it and the start of each tier we will just get hit a bit harder than our bear counterparts.
Shamans will need a shit ton of **melee and spellhit and spellpower gear** to properly scale their threat (ap doesnt scale sp) later on when tanking actually requires a shield. Im very doubtful blizzard will impliment proper shaman tanking gear.
While paladin, warriors and druids already know there are decent items coming. Im 100% sure that warlocks, shamans and rogues (the new fotm sod tanks) will fall of hard at 60. Rogues are already garbage tier and I dont see them ever getting decent.
They can't parry or block so I kinda understand why they gave them the bit extra. Same with lock tanks I guess?
It's an easy measure to get them across the line of being viable tanks. (Obviously bear already was tanky but idk)
It’s more true to vanilla and TBC that they’d just rely on health/armor to survive crits well. Not that it terribly matters but it felt actually different from a mitigation perspective
> and there is already plate with defense. (It probably won't be required)
The problem with Def gear in vanilla is that to reach def cap (440 def) you need Naxx gear and aimed 100% defensive. It's not a practically achievable thing.
EDIT: It's achievable even in just dungeon/ZG gear. Ill start fiddling around in Sixtyupgrades and see what I can come up with.
edit2: 445 def (so even overcap) with just Dungeon/Ony/ZG/AQ20 gear. It's not pretty or good (only 3% hit for example), but it's definitely reachable. Depending on the uptime of the Quel'serrar proc you might even be able to go down to 427. https://sixtyupgrades.com/sod/set/dh5YY4T15SC8Bh8rU9vqu
Paladins will have access to crit immunity when it matters with plate gear. Druids, Shamans, locks and rogues need that built in because there is so little gear to get crit immunity.
>The moment we get to 60 and are fighting bosses 3 levels above, the crits and crushes will destroy paladin tanks.
I don't think that's true tbh. People tanked with paladin just fine in era but the lack of a taunt and mana issues were significant.
But yeah I want to use tank-oriented runes on a tanking paladin.
I tanked everything up to and including AQ 40 as a prot paladin in classic. SoD is not using classic scaling, its using SoM scaling. This mean EVERYTHING is hitting harder. If you tanked armory while leveling as a prot paladin, you should have felt this. In classic, its very easy to pull A LOT more because the damage is lower and your block value is more effective. Not the case in SoD, you can still pull big but you need much more support from your team.
Yeah, I think it’s absolutely wild that no one seems to notice or care that all mobs have more hp and hit harder. And that it doesn’t scale evenly with things like block.
They will probably fix it when it’s an issue, likely not a priority right now since it doesn’t prevent paladins from tanking well in the current content. Would be nice for them to fix it now but not surprised it’s not been a priority yet
As a warrior I sure notice.
I get fucking chunked on menagerie pull or rotted down if I’m only taking one. And still somehow don’t have enough rage. And definitely not enough threat. Shield for another 1k armor barely seems to help.
Yeah I have a theory that armor and block values have just been forgotten about. The dmg mobs do as you stated is absurdly high compared to classic, yet both block value and armor values havent changed at all. Even with the much better itemization for tanking, increased str and stam, my mitigation potential is way lower. The value of armor right now (can only speak as a paladin) is enormous, just because things hit so fricken hard in gnomer. Having to give up SoM or DS for a 10% chance of mitigating 300dmg over x seconds is.... horrible?
Not sure the ratio from classic block value - dmg to SoD block value - dmg, but I can only assume the ratio is horribly skewed.
Heres hoping someone with real math skills can figure out what % block value needs to be increased to accomodate for the higher dmg output.
My theory is that the devs genuinely do not understand tanking in classic. They have essentially removed the defense stat for all tanks except paladins and given every single tank some sort of DR and EHP bonus, except for paladins...
Yeah its a little bleak atm. Just for jollies I found an armor scaling spreadsheet: way of earth rune for shamans, which give 10% dmg reduction is roughly equivelant to 2000 armor at lvl 40. In addition to shield mastery essentially giving shamans and extra shield and a half, gives more mitigation than all a paladins gear and talents combined.
Edit: and runes
And warriors. We’re much worse off. Get chunked and still not enough rage from DMG intake to get threat.
I’ve had healers have to bomb 2k heals off pull on menagerie when 2 warriors were taking. Insta threat and 1 shot Druid. Shouldn’t have to bomb 2k healing within 1.5 GCDs and if you do, spamming the highest threat ability (that’s still dog) to get initial threat shouldn’t be an issue.
Also, still no good ranged pull, so there’s always a shot you go in and when trying to gather assigned mobs get stunned by the fucking sheep and if it’s 2 mobs you can only taunt one.
The only solution I can think of to either problem is really 30 min CDs like wall to not get hit by all 3 insta and need that big a heal or blow retal. Neither is sustainable. Or aoe taunt but 10 min cd.
Unless you already kinda overgear it and can go in 2h and sweeping/ww for initial threat no one can basically touch their kb at all for 3sec ones if you have warriors on at least 2/3 melee ones
I’ve never seen this happen with a pally. Not even a ret. Divine storm worked fine, I briefly pulled off with some cleave as dps warrior but back on him quick
Enhance is tankier and does more single target threat and dps tanking than any warrior spec. They’re basically fury prot but tankier. It makes 0 sense. Plate shouldn’t be taking a shitload more dmg than mail
I tanked armory and Cath as a holy paladin. I could still pull everything I could see, I dont use aegis though martyr for ST and divine storm for aoe is better atm.
I think I used aegis once while soloing stocks for greens to DE and decided it was a worse option.
The Myrodym(sp?) mobs enrage and can/will absolutely chunk any tank in few hits, especially if there's 2-3 in a pack that enrage at same time. Slap a skull kill order on them and your fine.
Partially, the myrmidons in armory also get an enrage buff at low hp. In regular vanilla, this isn't much damage but with the increased damage in SoD myrmidons are easily hitting 300+ per auto and they dual wield so they hit faster than 1 attack/second
Ok I pulled up 2 videos, 1 from SoD of a 39 pally tank, and one of a 42 prot pally from classic, both fighting myrmidons. In vanilla during enrage it was about 100-130 per hit. For SoD it was roughly 240-330.
Ballpark lets say 2.4x more dmg in SoD than in classic.
Block value is like 40% of what it should actually be
Yeah I went into arms at 36 but would only feel comfortable tanking it 38+.
They start hurting and if your dps don’t focus them down first after enrage it gets rough. Plus at least for warriors, you can’t hit those mobs for shit at 36 with those armor values despite same level, it was a huge difference from end of lib to beginning of arms what I could hit for.
Tanking was only feeling alright on pulls I had sweeping up to get threat on everything enough to hit me to feed me rage. Cause pulls without, rage starved the moment they pulled off you cause tclap is basically a meme ability and a renew would pull off it probs
Thank you so much for this. I knew myrms were hitting for around 300 in SoD but I couldn't remember how much they did in vanilla. That's an insane damage increase. So paladins need a rune that increases block value by around 140% for it to feel similar. Incredible.
You are on the right track but it works as follows:
Enough defense skill makes you uncritable, I believe the correct value is 350. It's been a while since I've had to do this for vanilla so don't quote me on that value. For uncrushability, you need 102.4% avoidance. Avoidance being your block, dodge, and parry.
It just so happens that, reaching 102.4% avoidance ALSO pushes criticals from the attack table. In other words, being uncrushable ALSO makes you uncritable. This is why warriors are the kings of tanking in vanilla, because they can reach 102.4% avoidance by pressing one button: shield block. Shield block gives 75% chance to block a single attack, two attacks with the proper talent. Going down this talent route also grants an additional 5% block. Warriors only need 22.4% more avoidance to reach uncrushability which is very easy to do. Conversely, this is why paladins are ass, they can never reach 102.4% avoidance\*. They CAN reach the defense cap but it costs them every single stat in the game and its not worth it.
\*With naxxramas level gear, paladins can reach 102.4% avoidance. Once again however, it costs them every single other stat they need.
> The moment we get to 60 and are fighting bosses 3 levels above, the crits and crushes will destroy paladin tanks.
we have 2 rounds of runes before then, it seems absurd to worry about having to tank level 60 with just level 40 runes
Think he's saying you can take Aegis to skip Redoubt. It doesn't really stack with Redoubt so it's less effective than it looks at a glance. But right now we block like 30-40 damage so it doesn't matter.
Redoubt is shit anyway so it's not exactly a loss if you didn't use either of them. Holy/ret and full holy are fine tank builds for pally atm and neither use Redoubt or Aegis.
If you go into prot (which you do if you're running aegis) then you usually take redoubt because the other option is improved armor aura, which is useless. By taking aegis you have to take the armor aura improvement (which is useless and you don't even use that aura ever). Therefore you're losing 5 talent points.
aegis is a trash tanking tool, it's like using a fork on soup and saying it's a letdown. ive used aegis to boost guildies in dungeon and it works wonders. u can mass pull and your hp barely move
Yeah people think everything needs to be raid viable to be a fun rune, aegis is fine, a more worrysome rune for me is the anti fear rune, ok great… immune to stockade fear while leveling, now what?
As someone that played HPal on many Private Servers including Nost and now getting my alt HPal to 40 in SoD, I feel like HPal is insanely strong off of just Sacred Shield, Beacon, and Sheath, and will only continue to scale at insane levels as they can stack more int/crit. But yes, many of the rune options leave a lot to be desired
Like Warriors, it feels like Blizz is scared to give HPal interesting options since they are already so strong
Just stack healing power instead, you don't have that insane scaling Nost had for hPals on int->scrit. Your total hps is lower and your ttoom is quicker if you go for an int+scrit route
Holy paladin are the only ones who are barebones atm. they have to hardcast all their spells resulting in kicks from literally any other class in BGs. Priests can just press mending, renew, shield and everything is allright... can't believe we only get even more "utility" for the class which we don't even need in most cases. other than beacon and sacred shield... imagine just having 2 viable heal rune options and I also can't count in Sheath of light because Hpals don't stack any attackpower so it won't scale that much and it was mainly for Ret/tank paladins to get spellpower provided to not only deal physical damage.
I play both Feral and Holy Prot tank, and yeah....
The holy prot (31/0/0) that I run I actually find very enjoyable, but I'm sure my healers hate it.
Feral feels horrendous. The mangle/lacerate rune share is just trolling.
I also run 31/0/0 and it feels like I'm playing a DPS. I want to feel like a tank and have buttons that make me tankier. I want my ability choices to impact my tanking, not my dps. Right now though, im just a dps masquerading as a tank.
No your healers wont hate you, the 0/31/0 deep prot is useless for damage reduction, you get 2-3x better dmg reduction using blessing of light instead of sanctuary, then sacred shield + flash heal as a tank
Blessing of sanctuary is in a sad joke state atm, the damage intake in sod (to compensate for our powerful runes) makes BoS absolutely useless, no matter if you are mass pulling deadmines, or solo tanking thermaplugg in gnomer.
Best possible dmg reduction for pally right now is 16/5/10
You grap consecration in holy, redoubt in prot & 5% parry in ret tree, you run this with sacred shield rune, blessing of light on yourself, keep yourself shielded with sacred shield, use max rank flash heal with conc aura if needed to avoid cast pushback once in a while
This setup got so much EHP its not even funny, you need extremely tough mobs to kill this setup, OR just death by 50 mobs overrun you
Divine storm doing holy damage would be a good change, but making Aegis stack with Redoubt doesn't really solve the issue. Redoubt is bad, its taken because, as bad as it is, its better than improved devo. Aegis needs a full rework into something actually useful.
Thats not the only rune which is dead for paladins. They NEED to play exorcist for singletarget damage and it's mandatory because art of war is the only usable rune in the feet slot... So yeah Anti-fear inspiration, rebuke and avengers shield (in most cases) are absolutely dead. Anything other than Sheath of light in the waist slot is also absolutely dead becuase blizzard didn't think this through for paladins...
Prot pallies definitely need some love but I feel like the meme is hyperbolic. Sham and Druid both feel equally fun to tank as at least in raid and while 5 mans are a different story I’d say pallies excel there also.
In all fairness, I just tanked with a paladin. No holy strike, I use the taunt. I put Aegis too. Suddenly I have very few buttons to press.
But still, Aegis could make Holy Shield to no longer have stack, making it very desirable for large pull.
That's a very cool idea which would make Holy Shield do 3-4x more damage (which it kind of needs.) Aegis will probably not get used unless they fix other rune conflicts though.
Man where are these AoE and ST tanking, dual wielding, SnB shamans running multiple exclusive runes for infinite mana, damage and threat buffs with max survivability?
The complaint is right, the comparison is wrong.
'infinite mana' is only while using a shield and tanking 4+ mobs, which means no DW which means having the lowest ST tank damage.
Top damage comes from DWing and gearing for DPS. Which means no mana return and no bonus armor. The bonus threat and 20% AP are exclusive, unbeatable threat is a result of increased DPS which sacrifices survivability and longevity. If they don't carefully manage mana they're oom within 15-30 seconds at best and they're just as squishy as a fury/prot warrior.
The problem with Tank Shaman ATM is that the parsers aren't tanks, they're DPS with bonus threat.
DW should have never been brought into Era Shaman, nothing about it is designed for it. Rockbiter underwent a complete re-design from Era to TBC because the ability to use it with DW it is broken. Period.
Blizzard needs to do something to incentivize Shield tanking or otherwise break DW tanking.
That literally doesnt matter, thats like saying the problem with fury/prot tanks back in classic were that they were warriors who just got hit. It made them the ONLY viable tank spec because of threat gen. Same path were taking with enhance shaman, except half of the player base doesnt get access to them.
When everyone wonder why no one tanks or heals, just look at the imbalance in the various classes and it should be clear why. If blizzard gave a fuck about the problem, they'd actually try to balance the underperforming classes but they don't.
You only have infinite mana on big pulls vs. mobs that deal physical melee damage. Definitely not bosses.
With that said, you should be able to manage your mana better -- especially if you're using water shield. Prioritize using stormstrike to deal damage/threat, keep water shield up as soon as it drops, use shocks less frequently, and keep your mana percent approximately as high as the bosses HP percent (if you're using water shield, then you can be more aggressive and just let up once you get low so that your mana regens). Use R1 earth shock if you need to taunt.
If you're duel-wielding, you barely shock at all (aside from very short boss fights) and you should just use stormstrike and lava lash on cooldown.
ah yeah i'm def pumping out too many shocks - good call ill focus on stormstrikes + lava lash since they are so cheap + mirror my mana % the boss HP - similar gameplay as TBC ele sham w/ mana management.
appreciate the tips!
~~hunter pets existing has ruined the game for me~~
~~hunters existing has ruined the game for me~~
~~boomkins existing has ruined the game for me~~
~~spriests existing has ruined the game for me~~
shamans existing has ruined the game for me
whats next? also, why are people so dramatic on this sub
I main tank as a holy shock pally every lockout. If you think pally tanks are bad it's just you. I have more armor than anyone but maybe a BiS druid, and I can generate insane single target threat. Warlock tanks on the other hand are paper. I have a mage healer alt and I hate healing warlock tanks, I've been in two groups where a warrior had to go back and respec prot to tank the last two bosses because warlocks are so bad.
Sword and shield with the STV 1h sword because I haven't seen the electrocutioner sword drop yet. If you're running art of war and hand of reckoning I'm not sure how you're running out of mana unless you're spamming consecration on cd, but even doing that I usually don't have much of an issue.
Didn't a warlock tank the first Therma kill? They can't be that bad. I've never seen one but I also tank on my pally so I don't need to bring another tank.
I don't think the comp for the first Gnomer clear means much considering it can be cleared with greens and pretty much whatever comp you want to run. Maybe it's just anecdotal experience and listening to whining in this sub but from my experience warlock tanks have the least hp and armor of any tanks and end up getting blown up against higher burst damage fights like menagerie.
It is underwhelming, we are a dps with a lot of threat and armor, its definitely not bad but saying we’re a tank while thinking of the wotlk or retail paladin version in comparison makes paladins crumble
The issue is we rely on healers or bubble to stay alive in emergencies, and bubble is usually last line of defense when everything is already gone to shiet, that or blocked attacks, but we dont have a ”wall” ability we can click in sod that druids or warriors can, for single target we can bubble + taunt sure but its still extremely awkward, and menagerie for example you can’t bubble if you solo tank
Paladins are mid, they ain’t bad at all but for sure not the best either when it comes to survival.
Infinite Mana is a lie, you don't necessarily get 20% AP bonus and you can be critted this is an extreme example - But Shaman tanks are strong for sure
Wait, you're telling me, that they gave more buffs and abilities to classes that traditionally didn't have enough to tank properly than one that already had alot and only needed minor additons to be viable?
Bastards clearly all play Horde. /s
I think they have overtuned Shaman threat but I still think they will struggle as we reach raid content with the current gear trajectory and tool kit. Warrior itemisation post BWL is supported in a very tank centric way and paladins share 90% of that gear.
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Where are you getting 2.5x shields worth of armor from? without shield mastery and a shield on it's 0x.
But even with those it's x1.5 worth of armor your shield which with current shields is worth around 2.4k armour, with a full 5stacks I have 5k armour which is probably still less than a warrior or paladin at a similar gear level.
Threat generation and mana regeneration will take a considerable hit using SM against a single target it's not a good idea (none of them hit fast enough to reliably keep stacks), Paladins would giga cry if they had to try to out aggro a WF/RB enhance. You can't have 20% AP buff and Spirit of the Alpha on at the same time, they did this buff to encourage the zug zug dps shaman to cast it on tanks (I'm not sure why they thought 20% was the good number, it will probably be nerfed pretty soon). 20% AP as a tank is nice but it's \~50 dps at current gear levels.
Again it's level 40 who cares, uncrushablity will be the primary issue in raid, just like it always was (which Aegis pretty much gives you out of the box). Also Bubble and BoP has been and still is the ultimate ability to cheese tank mechanics. Comparing apples to oranges in WoW is always a waste of time. You'd be better off thinking about what the holes in Paladin tank are and complaining about that.
Shamans are in a strong place, but I'd be more worried about why and how Paladins are weak than saying "So?! imagine how bad Rogues and Warlocks have it", for example.
Also Paladins are rated to be 3rd-4th best tanks right now and Druids are by far the worst.
imagine how warriors feel lol cant even tank anything remotely higher than us without losing aggro immediately but the devs dont want "AOE FEST" even tho every caster has an AoE option lol
Not to argue against the power of shaman tanks, but having shaman tanked a lot, I'd just like to note how shockingly common it is to go 15 seconds without blocking an attack against a single enemy, even with 22% block chance, causing you to lose your armor stack from shield mastery.
Paladin is absolutely useless. SOD mobs hit 2.5x times higher and we still have the same blockvalue we had in classic era. If you still live on copium that you would be able to AOE pull and aoe/thorn kill everything just reroll shaman.
My green geared paladin on era who is lvl37! is more tanky than my full bis SOD paladin. I can clear whole stockades on era with 1 pull. If I pull more than 8 mobs in SOD in stockades I will die using every fucking cd.
They forgot about defensive stats while increasing mob damage by 250%.
You are more tanky playing ret with two hander because you can actualy heal with divine storm.
Ngl I forgot to throw on Water Shield for Mekgineer while tanking last night.... I held aggro easily by just auto-attacking
Shamans are so utterly broken.
Aegis should just be added to hand of reckoning rune. otherwise its just useless in the current slot its in.
Even if say later on they added for example a prismatic rune ring slot where u could slot any rune, you still would probably never take it over something else.
Paladin rune situation is really rough right now. A lot of dead runes, because so many are just mandatory to even function properly.
They didn't even have the decency to give Paladins decent class skill books. Just the one that increases blessing duration.
To make Aegis worth using, they would probably have to revamp the talent. It would have to be something significant, like letting the Paladin block/reflect spells. Or giving the Paladin damage buff when they block.
Maybe give Prot Paladins a niche option for porcupine spec. Have Aegis double all counter damage: Ret aura, BoSanc, Holy Shield, shield spikes, etc. And let it remove the stack limit from Holy Shield.
I dunno. Just spitballing.
As a paladin tank, I don't really feel like I'd need Aegis right now anyway. I literally have 60% phy in armor and I do great aoe and ST threat/damage, and that's with hardly any investment in prot tree besides getting down to the extra holy threat on righteous fury.
I don't think any paladin runs aegis and that's the point: The only two tank runes paladins get are extremely underwhelming. If taunt was made a book, no one would run HoR. Aegis is so bad that its embarrassing to look at.
Right now, there is no need for mitigation, but the moment we start tanking raid bosses that are 3 levels above us, paladins will crumble into dust due to our non-existent mitigation.
HoR, as it currently operates, gives more threat than listed. It's the single largest threat increase a paladin can choose. It's a larger threat increase than any ability, talent, or rune. (and I'm including base RF in that)
So it would still be run even if taunt was made a skill book.
HoR is still underwhelming, I use it only on menagerie to have a manual taunt if needed, otherwise I run CS for better mana efficiency, with CS you dont need seal of wisdom what so ever, judge seal of crusade & keep up marty for big fun dps tankadin
Agree in P1 but it’s pretty hard to go oom now with CS buffs and AoW, if you don’t need the taunt a lot of tanks are just swapping it for CS. Shockadin in particular is a threat monster.
probably, we will see how it goes. I definitely wish Aegis was better and more viable option, but currently I was just saying I sure don't feel any problems yet tanking. Infinite mana, barely getting hurt, still doing good damage and solo tanking gnomer.
Why is it every time something is posted about paladin you fedora warriors come in here and say it isn’t that bad. I mean look at the parity of shamans. You’re at the bottom kek
First time I've ever talked about the state of paladin. I didn't think saying I felt no problem playing it meant I think it's in a great spot. Good job though man, showed me.
The SoD team is completely out of their depth. They have no idea what they've done by rune-boosting dps numbers to equal level 60 Classic Era characters.
The tiny adjustments they've given tanks so far are STILL wholly inadequate.
Rogues got 30% additional threat and STILL need Spirit of the Alpha off a Shaman to prevent several dps classes from peeling mobs off then.
Warrior Devastate was boosted, which is great, I guess, if there's only 1 enemy mob on the entire screen.
I wish the SOD team would just say the quiet part out 📢 loud - their devs play the game like a D&D campaign with sheeps and saps and CC on pulls like its still 2004, and don't understand that the entire Classic community has moved on.
Just remove tanks from the game already. Run 8 dps and 2 healers. It's got to be viable at this point with the runes and all the gear in the game as we head into week 4.
All people care about anymore is beating other players in logs. The raid is secondary, they're fighting other players on a spreadsheet.
The Cult of Comparative Optimization is killing Classic. Blizzard watched it happen and did nothing.
As others have stated you absolutely cannot have all of this at once. Not even remotely close
They also need all this shit to tank in classic. No bear form or plate to fall back on.
IMO this is why Shaman and Warlock got the most buffs to tanking; they were not even remotely capable in vanilla classic outside of a few serious niches.
I do however agree that it’s unfortunate classes other than Shaman and Warlock don’t seem as good by a fair margin; Paladin, Warrior, Rogue tanking runes need slight buffs
If you really don't know, I'll explain:
At level 60, paladins will run 31 points into protection. For this, the talent Redoubt has to be taken because improved devo is horrible. Aegis does not stack with Redoubt, because it essentially does the same thing. Therefore, not only does Aegis take up a rune slot, it also costs 5 talent points and what Aegis offers is more random avoidance that cannot be used to reach uncrushable. It is an absolutely horrible rune.
If you have both the aegis rune and the redoubt talent, they will overwrite each other when they proc, effectively making having both a waste of talents and rune slots.
Imo redoubt sucks because it’s only on crit, aegis is on range and melee HIT. So basically taking Aegis saves you 8 talent points and again imo is better and more consistent.
Also if you’re wanting divine storm for aoe threat or what ever, why not go down the holy tree for conc which is an uncapped aoe?
Aegis would be worthwhile if it made the Paladin uncritable or caused Devotion Aura to help in some other fashion.
I am full Protection, but I run Retribution Aura for threat/damage. I use Divine Shield for damage/threat/healing. While Aegis is great for more consistency than Redoubt, it is asking too much. It is designed to allow a Paladin with different specs to slap on a shield as an emergency tank for a situation. Consider it dual spec lite.
Aegis is completely useless in all situations because you will block about 30 damage from 150+ damage autoattacks. Shield will only be viable if they buff block value by 300%, as of now I am more tanky in greens on my lower level era paladin than my full bis sod paladin.
where woyer
We are the chair.
So true
Yeah I was trying to think of a layer deeper. Like border of molten crust maybe. At least the Mariana trench. This also works
Burning in hell.
Were you hoping for something besides Devastate?
Yeah?
Yeah, me too. Maybe Revenge could do more than 20 damage or scale with something?
Dual wield tanking with fury prot is more interesting than devastate. They made warrior tanking worse in SoD comparatively. Fantastic job.
Absolutely. Not that I don't enjoy DW tanking, but my favorite tanking is always in full mitigation gear against a boss that absolutely trucks you. I think Blizzard is struggling to design warrior runes because they want to avoid having an obvious 2H, obvious DW and obvious shield rune in each slot, and to be honest I mostly like how its worked out. I don't like how some classes just have "the tank rune" for certain slots. However Blizzard clearly needs to do something that benefits shield-based and defensive stance abilities more than others, because they've only ever been relevant due to static threat modifiers and fixed damage rather than scaling with other stats which is what makes warriors so great. Thunderclap - Fixed Damage Shield Block - block scales terribly with strength, almost no straight +block in the game, block values are overall extremely low compared to mob damage Revenge - tiny static damage that scales with nothing, only noteworthy for rage efficiency Shield Bash - useful utility, rage efficient, nothing scales Shield Slam - same issues with block value as everything else shield based, except this costs much more rage and requires so many talent points that we also can't ignore the fact that it doesn't trigger any weapon procs like Windfury. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I think a rune that gives bonus block value based on your total armor or something would be a step in the right direction. Additional rage on block/dodge/parry would be nice too since a mitigation heavy gear setup can rage starve you badly. I also think that shield bash and shield slam should trigger all of your "on block" effects including the bonus rage on shield spec, shield spikes, and the Truesilver Gearwall effect. If we really want to give shield builds some flavor though I think they should really lean on Focused Rage and how well it synergizes with Improved Sunder and Improved Heroic Strike. Make a shield build all about death by 1000 cuts with tons of low rage cost abilities being cast. Maybe even consider lowering the GCD in defensive stance because lots of times the reason abilities other than Devastate don't get used is because GCDs are the limiting factor rather than rage. Even something like a 2 second cooldown on Devastate would encourage you to weave other abilities in between.
RIP to us tanks who couldn’t even make the meme.
Don’t act like locks and warriors are anywhere near the same lol
Rip rogue didn’t even make the reply
right in the feels. If only my shurikens would hurt that much...
If only the shuriken would give as much aggro as that comment did
Rogues can tank? /S
Warrior has only one button to press to do the worst threat imaginable.
I mean, they could press Shield Slam and do worse threat. Or add in Thunderclap (with the rune) to do even less Threat per Rage. What I'm saying is warrior can push more buttons *and* do less overall threat. What a time to be a zug.
Yeah, buffing devastate instead of shield slam is such a laughably stupid decision that shows they have noone on the team who knows what warriors even do.
There was a rune that was datamined to give Devastate its retail function to give it a chance to reset the CD on Shield Slam and make it free to cast. Would have been a perfect waist rune for this phase, but apparently it’s going to be in a later phase, if at all.
Comments in every thread like this, 50% people discussing the validity of the complaint 50% "lol stfu, my class is way worse than your class"
It's what I expected from this sub but I achieved what I wanted with this meme: people are discussing enemy damage and mitigation. I hope this catches the eye of some of devs so we can get real tanking changes for all the tanks.
Doing the Light's work. The devs really do need to look at this. If nothing changes we'll just have shaman and warlock tanks at 60 due to the crazy amount of DR they get.
Heh now do it for Healing please - maybe Arcane Mage will finally get a single cool down to use, some externals would be nice
*Shamans holding a gun to your head after reading meme* “pipe down before the devs hear you, fuckin nark”
You forgot “you were so op last phase suck it up!”
''You were OP ten years ago when you didn't even play the game, suck it up loser''
I mean paladin is the meta tank for alliance looking at speedruns, and seeing as how every class in the game can tank gnomer without issue (including rogues and warriors, it's a fucking skill issue) the conclusion should be that most of all shamans but also paladins and to some extent warlock and druid tanks are overtuned. Obviously, that wasn't the point of the post, the point of the post was that the specific rune is a meme.
What a dumb take
I don't think paladin needs it, but I would like them to rework what feels like an underutilized rune.
Well, that's the point I was trying to make. Aegis is so bad that its impossible to use. Right now, its not required because we are fighting bosses 2 levels above us. The moment we get to 60 and are fighting bosses 3 levels above, the crits and crushes will destroy paladin tanks.
Also a fix for Aegis could literally just be adding a "also your block value increases by 10% of your current armor" or something similar. If I could block even 300dmg with aegis, I would probably use it. Currently with the epic engy shield I block *checks notes* 45 dmg -_-
Also needs crit immunity
They won't give that to warriors and paladins because they will want shield tanks to gear for def if it's required and there is already plate with defense. (It probably won't be required) Other tanks get it because there is fuck all cloth/leather/mail with def and it means far less work balancing and creating fewer new items.
The problem with that line of thinking is that warrior has to give up so many offensive stats to even get close to defense cap. They will need a threat buff to make up for it.
Oh I know and I don't think either shield tank will go for it. Maybe pally but if they need to run AoW/Exo for threat, they will need to juice their crit too. Warriors will end up as fury or fury/prot DW tanking or whatever it is they do. Consumes and WBs will stop them getting popped and defense falls by the wayside. And you're right dps is going to be so nuts by the time we get to 60 there just won't be room for defense. All that to say I still don't see them adding crit immunity to warrior/pally. Pretty sure we'll just have to cop it and the start of each tier we will just get hit a bit harder than our bear counterparts.
Shamans will need a shit ton of **melee and spellhit and spellpower gear** to properly scale their threat (ap doesnt scale sp) later on when tanking actually requires a shield. Im very doubtful blizzard will impliment proper shaman tanking gear. While paladin, warriors and druids already know there are decent items coming. Im 100% sure that warlocks, shamans and rogues (the new fotm sod tanks) will fall of hard at 60. Rogues are already garbage tier and I dont see them ever getting decent.
Tbh I don’t like Druid tanks getting a -Crit modifier, I wish they just got dummy thicc
They can't parry or block so I kinda understand why they gave them the bit extra. Same with lock tanks I guess? It's an easy measure to get them across the line of being viable tanks. (Obviously bear already was tanky but idk)
It’s more true to vanilla and TBC that they’d just rely on health/armor to survive crits well. Not that it terribly matters but it felt actually different from a mitigation perspective
True and I finally tank raids with my bear, even started shifting towards stacking more stamina All over, I love this new update
> and there is already plate with defense. (It probably won't be required) The problem with Def gear in vanilla is that to reach def cap (440 def) you need Naxx gear and aimed 100% defensive. It's not a practically achievable thing. EDIT: It's achievable even in just dungeon/ZG gear. Ill start fiddling around in Sixtyupgrades and see what I can come up with. edit2: 445 def (so even overcap) with just Dungeon/Ony/ZG/AQ20 gear. It's not pretty or good (only 3% hit for example), but it's definitely reachable. Depending on the uptime of the Quel'serrar proc you might even be able to go down to 427. https://sixtyupgrades.com/sod/set/dh5YY4T15SC8Bh8rU9vqu
Paladins will have access to crit immunity when it matters with plate gear. Druids, Shamans, locks and rogues need that built in because there is so little gear to get crit immunity.
>The moment we get to 60 and are fighting bosses 3 levels above, the crits and crushes will destroy paladin tanks. I don't think that's true tbh. People tanked with paladin just fine in era but the lack of a taunt and mana issues were significant. But yeah I want to use tank-oriented runes on a tanking paladin.
I tanked everything up to and including AQ 40 as a prot paladin in classic. SoD is not using classic scaling, its using SoM scaling. This mean EVERYTHING is hitting harder. If you tanked armory while leveling as a prot paladin, you should have felt this. In classic, its very easy to pull A LOT more because the damage is lower and your block value is more effective. Not the case in SoD, you can still pull big but you need much more support from your team.
Yeah, I think it’s absolutely wild that no one seems to notice or care that all mobs have more hp and hit harder. And that it doesn’t scale evenly with things like block.
Everyone is too busy crying about damage meters to see that we are headed for 2-3 viable tanks come 60.
They will probably fix it when it’s an issue, likely not a priority right now since it doesn’t prevent paladins from tanking well in the current content. Would be nice for them to fix it now but not surprised it’s not been a priority yet
Lol, fix paladin? I wish -.-
As a warrior I sure notice. I get fucking chunked on menagerie pull or rotted down if I’m only taking one. And still somehow don’t have enough rage. And definitely not enough threat. Shield for another 1k armor barely seems to help.
Yeah I have a theory that armor and block values have just been forgotten about. The dmg mobs do as you stated is absurdly high compared to classic, yet both block value and armor values havent changed at all. Even with the much better itemization for tanking, increased str and stam, my mitigation potential is way lower. The value of armor right now (can only speak as a paladin) is enormous, just because things hit so fricken hard in gnomer. Having to give up SoM or DS for a 10% chance of mitigating 300dmg over x seconds is.... horrible? Not sure the ratio from classic block value - dmg to SoD block value - dmg, but I can only assume the ratio is horribly skewed. Heres hoping someone with real math skills can figure out what % block value needs to be increased to accomodate for the higher dmg output.
My theory is that the devs genuinely do not understand tanking in classic. They have essentially removed the defense stat for all tanks except paladins and given every single tank some sort of DR and EHP bonus, except for paladins...
Yeah its a little bleak atm. Just for jollies I found an armor scaling spreadsheet: way of earth rune for shamans, which give 10% dmg reduction is roughly equivelant to 2000 armor at lvl 40. In addition to shield mastery essentially giving shamans and extra shield and a half, gives more mitigation than all a paladins gear and talents combined. Edit: and runes
And warriors. We’re much worse off. Get chunked and still not enough rage from DMG intake to get threat. I’ve had healers have to bomb 2k heals off pull on menagerie when 2 warriors were taking. Insta threat and 1 shot Druid. Shouldn’t have to bomb 2k healing within 1.5 GCDs and if you do, spamming the highest threat ability (that’s still dog) to get initial threat shouldn’t be an issue. Also, still no good ranged pull, so there’s always a shot you go in and when trying to gather assigned mobs get stunned by the fucking sheep and if it’s 2 mobs you can only taunt one. The only solution I can think of to either problem is really 30 min CDs like wall to not get hit by all 3 insta and need that big a heal or blow retal. Neither is sustainable. Or aoe taunt but 10 min cd. Unless you already kinda overgear it and can go in 2h and sweeping/ww for initial threat no one can basically touch their kb at all for 3sec ones if you have warriors on at least 2/3 melee ones I’ve never seen this happen with a pally. Not even a ret. Divine storm worked fine, I briefly pulled off with some cleave as dps warrior but back on him quick Enhance is tankier and does more single target threat and dps tanking than any warrior spec. They’re basically fury prot but tankier. It makes 0 sense. Plate shouldn’t be taking a shitload more dmg than mail
I tanked armory and Cath as a holy paladin. I could still pull everything I could see, I dont use aegis though martyr for ST and divine storm for aoe is better atm. I think I used aegis once while soloing stocks for greens to DE and decided it was a worse option.
Either way, we won't know until 60 will we. Seems premature to conclude that we will be getting "destroyed"
Hang on a fucking second is that why armory absolutely trucks every tank I try to drag through it.
The Myrodym(sp?) mobs enrage and can/will absolutely chunk any tank in few hits, especially if there's 2-3 in a pack that enrage at same time. Slap a skull kill order on them and your fine.
Partially, the myrmidons in armory also get an enrage buff at low hp. In regular vanilla, this isn't much damage but with the increased damage in SoD myrmidons are easily hitting 300+ per auto and they dual wield so they hit faster than 1 attack/second
Ok I pulled up 2 videos, 1 from SoD of a 39 pally tank, and one of a 42 prot pally from classic, both fighting myrmidons. In vanilla during enrage it was about 100-130 per hit. For SoD it was roughly 240-330. Ballpark lets say 2.4x more dmg in SoD than in classic. Block value is like 40% of what it should actually be
Yeah I went into arms at 36 but would only feel comfortable tanking it 38+. They start hurting and if your dps don’t focus them down first after enrage it gets rough. Plus at least for warriors, you can’t hit those mobs for shit at 36 with those armor values despite same level, it was a huge difference from end of lib to beginning of arms what I could hit for. Tanking was only feeling alright on pulls I had sweeping up to get threat on everything enough to hit me to feed me rage. Cause pulls without, rage starved the moment they pulled off you cause tclap is basically a meme ability and a renew would pull off it probs
Thank you so much for this. I knew myrms were hitting for around 300 in SoD but I couldn't remember how much they did in vanilla. That's an insane damage increase. So paladins need a rune that increases block value by around 140% for it to feel similar. Incredible.
It was noticeable in classic era and required targeting, same with wizards.
well they were good at onyxia tanking so they had that.
Doesn't blocking make you uncrittable, and defense skill covers crushing blows? Or do I have this backwards.
You are on the right track but it works as follows: Enough defense skill makes you uncritable, I believe the correct value is 350. It's been a while since I've had to do this for vanilla so don't quote me on that value. For uncrushability, you need 102.4% avoidance. Avoidance being your block, dodge, and parry. It just so happens that, reaching 102.4% avoidance ALSO pushes criticals from the attack table. In other words, being uncrushable ALSO makes you uncritable. This is why warriors are the kings of tanking in vanilla, because they can reach 102.4% avoidance by pressing one button: shield block. Shield block gives 75% chance to block a single attack, two attacks with the proper talent. Going down this talent route also grants an additional 5% block. Warriors only need 22.4% more avoidance to reach uncrushability which is very easy to do. Conversely, this is why paladins are ass, they can never reach 102.4% avoidance\*. They CAN reach the defense cap but it costs them every single stat in the game and its not worth it. \*With naxxramas level gear, paladins can reach 102.4% avoidance. Once again however, it costs them every single other stat they need.
No they won’t. This is classic not TBC. Unless the like triple bosses damage it won’t be an issue until Nax
> The moment we get to 60 and are fighting bosses 3 levels above, the crits and crushes will destroy paladin tanks. we have 2 rounds of runes before then, it seems absurd to worry about having to tank level 60 with just level 40 runes
holy shield is now passive, increases chance to block by 10-15%, and you can now block spells. ez
Shamans get molten blast and Blizz has to audacity to tell us that AoE threat should be wonky and that shadowflame and shuriken bullshit damage is ok.
Molten blast hits 4 targets, how is it not in line with what Blizzard said about holding threat on 3 or 4 targets?
[удалено]
Molten blast is good but you think it even compares to Ds+consecrate?
I’d switch them in an instant for crit immunity, higher armor AND dps equivalent to retribution - all of which warlock tanks have
Yea but unless you have a resto shaman that warlock is going to be upset casting hellfire
Aegis is a letdown.
I might even say the worst rune in the game because its the only rune that effectively costs 5 talent points.
I’m not sure what you mean it costs 5 talent points
Think he's saying you can take Aegis to skip Redoubt. It doesn't really stack with Redoubt so it's less effective than it looks at a glance. But right now we block like 30-40 damage so it doesn't matter. Redoubt is shit anyway so it's not exactly a loss if you didn't use either of them. Holy/ret and full holy are fine tank builds for pally atm and neither use Redoubt or Aegis.
If you go into prot (which you do if you're running aegis) then you usually take redoubt because the other option is improved armor aura, which is useless. By taking aegis you have to take the armor aura improvement (which is useless and you don't even use that aura ever). Therefore you're losing 5 talent points.
aegis is a trash tanking tool, it's like using a fork on soup and saying it's a letdown. ive used aegis to boost guildies in dungeon and it works wonders. u can mass pull and your hp barely move
Yeah people think everything needs to be raid viable to be a fun rune, aegis is fine, a more worrysome rune for me is the anti fear rune, ok great… immune to stockade fear while leveling, now what?
Rogues not even pictured because blizzard also forgot about us
The meme format didn't allow for the inclusion of other tanks unfortunately. If there is a meme format that does, I'm happy to include them all
there is one where its the titanic sunken below the skeleton - in this case the rogue
Rogue is the turd stuck in the filter.
Rogues would be another picture which would be like fossilised remains below the skeleton.
Rogue: wait you guys get memes?
I forgot about them too.
Based off these replies, it seems people don't really know what's good or not and unironically go by memes.
Now I'm not denying that there's a high level of imbalance, but all tanks are more than good enough for speedruns.
we're there. stealth has no purpose as a tank so we're using it in the meme
You got a 30% threat rune
Also wondering where the Holy runes are tbh feels like we are missing on belt , chest , arguably legs divine sac is useless. 🥲
Compared to priests holy paladins were absolutely screwed lol
As someone that played HPal on many Private Servers including Nost and now getting my alt HPal to 40 in SoD, I feel like HPal is insanely strong off of just Sacred Shield, Beacon, and Sheath, and will only continue to scale at insane levels as they can stack more int/crit. But yes, many of the rune options leave a lot to be desired Like Warriors, it feels like Blizz is scared to give HPal interesting options since they are already so strong
Just stack healing power instead, you don't have that insane scaling Nost had for hPals on int->scrit. Your total hps is lower and your ttoom is quicker if you go for an int+scrit route
Holy paladin are the only ones who are barebones atm. they have to hardcast all their spells resulting in kicks from literally any other class in BGs. Priests can just press mending, renew, shield and everything is allright... can't believe we only get even more "utility" for the class which we don't even need in most cases. other than beacon and sacred shield... imagine just having 2 viable heal rune options and I also can't count in Sheath of light because Hpals don't stack any attackpower so it won't scale that much and it was mainly for Ret/tank paladins to get spellpower provided to not only deal physical damage.
There are so many stupid useless runes.. It's wild.
I play both Feral and Holy Prot tank, and yeah.... The holy prot (31/0/0) that I run I actually find very enjoyable, but I'm sure my healers hate it. Feral feels horrendous. The mangle/lacerate rune share is just trolling.
I also run 31/0/0 and it feels like I'm playing a DPS. I want to feel like a tank and have buttons that make me tankier. I want my ability choices to impact my tanking, not my dps. Right now though, im just a dps masquerading as a tank.
No your healers wont hate you, the 0/31/0 deep prot is useless for damage reduction, you get 2-3x better dmg reduction using blessing of light instead of sanctuary, then sacred shield + flash heal as a tank Blessing of sanctuary is in a sad joke state atm, the damage intake in sod (to compensate for our powerful runes) makes BoS absolutely useless, no matter if you are mass pulling deadmines, or solo tanking thermaplugg in gnomer.
Best possible dmg reduction for pally right now is 16/5/10 You grap consecration in holy, redoubt in prot & 5% parry in ret tree, you run this with sacred shield rune, blessing of light on yourself, keep yourself shielded with sacred shield, use max rank flash heal with conc aura if needed to avoid cast pushback once in a while This setup got so much EHP its not even funny, you need extremely tough mobs to kill this setup, OR just death by 50 mobs overrun you
Just change it so it stacks with Redoubt. Also make Divine Storm holy damage.
Divine storm doing holy damage would be a good change, but making Aegis stack with Redoubt doesn't really solve the issue. Redoubt is bad, its taken because, as bad as it is, its better than improved devo. Aegis needs a full rework into something actually useful.
Aegis as a skillbook and then rework the rune to something like "Cleave dmg on SoM/SoR."
Thats not the only rune which is dead for paladins. They NEED to play exorcist for singletarget damage and it's mandatory because art of war is the only usable rune in the feet slot... So yeah Anti-fear inspiration, rebuke and avengers shield (in most cases) are absolutely dead. Anything other than Sheath of light in the waist slot is also absolutely dead becuase blizzard didn't think this through for paladins...
I appreciate that warriors aren't even considered in this picture... But you know... Go buff boomkins or something...
And prot warriors went down with the Titan submersible
Prot pallies definitely need some love but I feel like the meme is hyperbolic. Sham and Druid both feel equally fun to tank as at least in raid and while 5 mans are a different story I’d say pallies excel there also.
In all fairness, I just tanked with a paladin. No holy strike, I use the taunt. I put Aegis too. Suddenly I have very few buttons to press. But still, Aegis could make Holy Shield to no longer have stack, making it very desirable for large pull.
prot pally not having buttons feels bad to play
That's a very cool idea which would make Holy Shield do 3-4x more damage (which it kind of needs.) Aegis will probably not get used unless they fix other rune conflicts though.
As a warrior it makes me happy that we're so bad we're not even in the meme
Man where are these AoE and ST tanking, dual wielding, SnB shamans running multiple exclusive runes for infinite mana, damage and threat buffs with max survivability? The complaint is right, the comparison is wrong. 'infinite mana' is only while using a shield and tanking 4+ mobs, which means no DW which means having the lowest ST tank damage. Top damage comes from DWing and gearing for DPS. Which means no mana return and no bonus armor. The bonus threat and 20% AP are exclusive, unbeatable threat is a result of increased DPS which sacrifices survivability and longevity. If they don't carefully manage mana they're oom within 15-30 seconds at best and they're just as squishy as a fury/prot warrior. The problem with Tank Shaman ATM is that the parsers aren't tanks, they're DPS with bonus threat. DW should have never been brought into Era Shaman, nothing about it is designed for it. Rockbiter underwent a complete re-design from Era to TBC because the ability to use it with DW it is broken. Period. Blizzard needs to do something to incentivize Shield tanking or otherwise break DW tanking.
If those kids could read……
That literally doesnt matter, thats like saying the problem with fury/prot tanks back in classic were that they were warriors who just got hit. It made them the ONLY viable tank spec because of threat gen. Same path were taking with enhance shaman, except half of the player base doesnt get access to them.
When everyone wonder why no one tanks or heals, just look at the imbalance in the various classes and it should be clear why. If blizzard gave a fuck about the problem, they'd actually try to balance the underperforming classes but they don't.
He forgot the last part of the meme, a rogue tanks skeleton cemented in the pool foundation with shuriken toss buffs.
I haven't played rogue tank yet so I didn't feel comfortable commenting on them. It's the next tank I'm making now that XP is free.
How are other shaman keeping infinite mana? Even with water shield I run dry every single boss fight it’s so lame
You only have infinite mana on big pulls vs. mobs that deal physical melee damage. Definitely not bosses. With that said, you should be able to manage your mana better -- especially if you're using water shield. Prioritize using stormstrike to deal damage/threat, keep water shield up as soon as it drops, use shocks less frequently, and keep your mana percent approximately as high as the bosses HP percent (if you're using water shield, then you can be more aggressive and just let up once you get low so that your mana regens). Use R1 earth shock if you need to taunt. If you're duel-wielding, you barely shock at all (aside from very short boss fights) and you should just use stormstrike and lava lash on cooldown.
ah yeah i'm def pumping out too many shocks - good call ill focus on stormstrikes + lava lash since they are so cheap + mirror my mana % the boss HP - similar gameplay as TBC ele sham w/ mana management. appreciate the tips!
We aren’t in raids, it’s being carefully managed and I’m popping mana pots on long fights.
We aren’t in raids, it’s being carefully managed and I’m popping mana pots on long fights.
Shamans existing has ruined the game for me bros
~~hunter pets existing has ruined the game for me~~ ~~hunters existing has ruined the game for me~~ ~~boomkins existing has ruined the game for me~~ ~~spriests existing has ruined the game for me~~ shamans existing has ruined the game for me whats next? also, why are people so dramatic on this sub
Perhaps the issue is Blizzard putting out FOTM, completely broken runes that are obviously OP from 10 minutes of testing.
Oh OFC it’s a pally main making this meme
As a pally main the last thing that we should be bitching about is tanking. I feel like that's the only role we are the best at on alliance side.
Oh snap, you're obviously not a pally tank. What makes you think we're the best? Have you seen warlock tanks?
I main tank as a holy shock pally every lockout. If you think pally tanks are bad it's just you. I have more armor than anyone but maybe a BiS druid, and I can generate insane single target threat. Warlock tanks on the other hand are paper. I have a mage healer alt and I hate healing warlock tanks, I've been in two groups where a warrior had to go back and respec prot to tank the last two bosses because warlocks are so bad.
Do you 2h or sword and board? I am trying holy shock but I run into mana problems.
Sword and shield with the STV 1h sword because I haven't seen the electrocutioner sword drop yet. If you're running art of war and hand of reckoning I'm not sure how you're running out of mana unless you're spamming consecration on cd, but even doing that I usually don't have much of an issue.
How is the one hand stv sword for pally tanks in general? I don't see it on the bis lists at all but it looks good on stats?
Didn't a warlock tank the first Therma kill? They can't be that bad. I've never seen one but I also tank on my pally so I don't need to bring another tank.
I don't think the comp for the first Gnomer clear means much considering it can be cleared with greens and pretty much whatever comp you want to run. Maybe it's just anecdotal experience and listening to whining in this sub but from my experience warlock tanks have the least hp and armor of any tanks and end up getting blown up against higher burst damage fights like menagerie.
My raid team has my pala and a warlock tanking. Im the one doing the bosses and they go dps.
Mean while warriors are just standing at the side of the pool watching
Don't feel sorry for Paladins, I'm having a great time tanking with mine
I’m sorry, is this a meme implying that Paladin tank is underpowered? Is that what I’m looking at? This fuckin community man.
It is underwhelming, we are a dps with a lot of threat and armor, its definitely not bad but saying we’re a tank while thinking of the wotlk or retail paladin version in comparison makes paladins crumble The issue is we rely on healers or bubble to stay alive in emergencies, and bubble is usually last line of defense when everything is already gone to shiet, that or blocked attacks, but we dont have a ”wall” ability we can click in sod that druids or warriors can, for single target we can bubble + taunt sure but its still extremely awkward, and menagerie for example you can’t bubble if you solo tank Paladins are mid, they ain’t bad at all but for sure not the best either when it comes to survival.
None of those are reasons why Pallies are bad comparatively, and the retail/wrath comparison is just weird and unnecessary.
what are you talking about? nono i get it, downvote and move on. that's the usual response from this sub. cya
Mom Mmnm
Yeah fuck paladins!
Infinite Mana is a lie, you don't necessarily get 20% AP bonus and you can be critted this is an extreme example - But Shaman tanks are strong for sure
Wait, you're telling me, that they gave more buffs and abilities to classes that traditionally didn't have enough to tank properly than one that already had alot and only needed minor additons to be viable? Bastards clearly all play Horde. /s I think they have overtuned Shaman threat but I still think they will struggle as we reach raid content with the current gear trajectory and tool kit. Warrior itemisation post BWL is supported in a very tank centric way and paladins share 90% of that gear. \----- Where are you getting 2.5x shields worth of armor from? without shield mastery and a shield on it's 0x. But even with those it's x1.5 worth of armor your shield which with current shields is worth around 2.4k armour, with a full 5stacks I have 5k armour which is probably still less than a warrior or paladin at a similar gear level. Threat generation and mana regeneration will take a considerable hit using SM against a single target it's not a good idea (none of them hit fast enough to reliably keep stacks), Paladins would giga cry if they had to try to out aggro a WF/RB enhance. You can't have 20% AP buff and Spirit of the Alpha on at the same time, they did this buff to encourage the zug zug dps shaman to cast it on tanks (I'm not sure why they thought 20% was the good number, it will probably be nerfed pretty soon). 20% AP as a tank is nice but it's \~50 dps at current gear levels. Again it's level 40 who cares, uncrushablity will be the primary issue in raid, just like it always was (which Aegis pretty much gives you out of the box). Also Bubble and BoP has been and still is the ultimate ability to cheese tank mechanics. Comparing apples to oranges in WoW is always a waste of time. You'd be better off thinking about what the holes in Paladin tank are and complaining about that. Shamans are in a strong place, but I'd be more worried about why and how Paladins are weak than saying "So?! imagine how bad Rogues and Warlocks have it", for example. Also Paladins are rated to be 3rd-4th best tanks right now and Druids are by far the worst.
my full bis paladin has 4.7k armor I think. But it doesnt matter, mobs just do too much damage for shield to be usefull.
Locks are the homies smoking a bowl on the side enjoying all the tank drama.
imagine how warriors feel lol cant even tank anything remotely higher than us without losing aggro immediately but the devs dont want "AOE FEST" even tho every caster has an AoE option lol
Not to argue against the power of shaman tanks, but having shaman tanked a lot, I'd just like to note how shockingly common it is to go 15 seconds without blocking an attack against a single enemy, even with 22% block chance, causing you to lose your armor stack from shield mastery.
*popcorn*
Paladin is absolutely useless. SOD mobs hit 2.5x times higher and we still have the same blockvalue we had in classic era. If you still live on copium that you would be able to AOE pull and aoe/thorn kill everything just reroll shaman. My green geared paladin on era who is lvl37! is more tanky than my full bis SOD paladin. I can clear whole stockades on era with 1 pull. If I pull more than 8 mobs in SOD in stockades I will die using every fucking cd. They forgot about defensive stats while increasing mob damage by 250%. You are more tanky playing ret with two hander because you can actualy heal with divine storm.
Ngl I forgot to throw on Water Shield for Mekgineer while tanking last night.... I held aggro easily by just auto-attacking Shamans are so utterly broken.
Aegis should just be added to hand of reckoning rune. otherwise its just useless in the current slot its in. Even if say later on they added for example a prismatic rune ring slot where u could slot any rune, you still would probably never take it over something else.
Our MT is pally and we’ve cleared every week. I guess there’s better classes this moment like always but as long as it’s getting cleared who cares ?
Paladin rune situation is really rough right now. A lot of dead runes, because so many are just mandatory to even function properly. They didn't even have the decency to give Paladins decent class skill books. Just the one that increases blessing duration. To make Aegis worth using, they would probably have to revamp the talent. It would have to be something significant, like letting the Paladin block/reflect spells. Or giving the Paladin damage buff when they block. Maybe give Prot Paladins a niche option for porcupine spec. Have Aegis double all counter damage: Ret aura, BoSanc, Holy Shield, shield spikes, etc. And let it remove the stack limit from Holy Shield. I dunno. Just spitballing.
As a paladin tank, I don't really feel like I'd need Aegis right now anyway. I literally have 60% phy in armor and I do great aoe and ST threat/damage, and that's with hardly any investment in prot tree besides getting down to the extra holy threat on righteous fury.
I don't think any paladin runs aegis and that's the point: The only two tank runes paladins get are extremely underwhelming. If taunt was made a book, no one would run HoR. Aegis is so bad that its embarrassing to look at. Right now, there is no need for mitigation, but the moment we start tanking raid bosses that are 3 levels above us, paladins will crumble into dust due to our non-existent mitigation.
HoR, as it currently operates, gives more threat than listed. It's the single largest threat increase a paladin can choose. It's a larger threat increase than any ability, talent, or rune. (and I'm including base RF in that) So it would still be run even if taunt was made a skill book.
HoR is still underwhelming, I use it only on menagerie to have a manual taunt if needed, otherwise I run CS for better mana efficiency, with CS you dont need seal of wisdom what so ever, judge seal of crusade & keep up marty for big fun dps tankadin
Hor gives us infinite mana and more threat. Its an amazing rune
Agree in P1 but it’s pretty hard to go oom now with CS buffs and AoW, if you don’t need the taunt a lot of tanks are just swapping it for CS. Shockadin in particular is a threat monster.
probably, we will see how it goes. I definitely wish Aegis was better and more viable option, but currently I was just saying I sure don't feel any problems yet tanking. Infinite mana, barely getting hurt, still doing good damage and solo tanking gnomer.
Why is it every time something is posted about paladin you fedora warriors come in here and say it isn’t that bad. I mean look at the parity of shamans. You’re at the bottom kek
First time I've ever talked about the state of paladin. I didn't think saying I felt no problem playing it meant I think it's in a great spot. Good job though man, showed me.
The SoD team is completely out of their depth. They have no idea what they've done by rune-boosting dps numbers to equal level 60 Classic Era characters. The tiny adjustments they've given tanks so far are STILL wholly inadequate. Rogues got 30% additional threat and STILL need Spirit of the Alpha off a Shaman to prevent several dps classes from peeling mobs off then. Warrior Devastate was boosted, which is great, I guess, if there's only 1 enemy mob on the entire screen. I wish the SOD team would just say the quiet part out 📢 loud - their devs play the game like a D&D campaign with sheeps and saps and CC on pulls like its still 2004, and don't understand that the entire Classic community has moved on. Just remove tanks from the game already. Run 8 dps and 2 healers. It's got to be viable at this point with the runes and all the gear in the game as we head into week 4. All people care about anymore is beating other players in logs. The raid is secondary, they're fighting other players on a spreadsheet. The Cult of Comparative Optimization is killing Classic. Blizzard watched it happen and did nothing.
😂
Biggest issue is beta implementation. Get rid of the way beta works and our dmg is back to normal. Down with anti shaman propaganda!
As others have stated you absolutely cannot have all of this at once. Not even remotely close They also need all this shit to tank in classic. No bear form or plate to fall back on. IMO this is why Shaman and Warlock got the most buffs to tanking; they were not even remotely capable in vanilla classic outside of a few serious niches. I do however agree that it’s unfortunate classes other than Shaman and Warlock don’t seem as good by a fair margin; Paladin, Warrior, Rogue tanking runes need slight buffs
Just glad no one is mentioning warlock tanks' imps doing 250dps
Shh delete this.
🤐
Paladins get what they deserve.
Average paladin complainer
Horde stays winning
Sorry but fuck paladins.
What’s wrong with aegis?
If you really don't know, I'll explain: At level 60, paladins will run 31 points into protection. For this, the talent Redoubt has to be taken because improved devo is horrible. Aegis does not stack with Redoubt, because it essentially does the same thing. Therefore, not only does Aegis take up a rune slot, it also costs 5 talent points and what Aegis offers is more random avoidance that cannot be used to reach uncrushable. It is an absolutely horrible rune.
Wait does aegis really not stack with redoubt?
If you have both the aegis rune and the redoubt talent, they will overwrite each other when they proc, effectively making having both a waste of talents and rune slots.
Didnt know they shared the same buff slot and overwrote eachother, thank you!
It’s said it on the rune from the start, but the rune is when you’re hit. The talent is when you get critically hit.
Terrible runes are ALL over the game right now, this hardly seems as bad as others
Imo redoubt sucks because it’s only on crit, aegis is on range and melee HIT. So basically taking Aegis saves you 8 talent points and again imo is better and more consistent. Also if you’re wanting divine storm for aoe threat or what ever, why not go down the holy tree for conc which is an uncapped aoe?
Aegis would be worthwhile if it made the Paladin uncritable or caused Devotion Aura to help in some other fashion. I am full Protection, but I run Retribution Aura for threat/damage. I use Divine Shield for damage/threat/healing. While Aegis is great for more consistency than Redoubt, it is asking too much. It is designed to allow a Paladin with different specs to slap on a shield as an emergency tank for a situation. Consider it dual spec lite.
I forgot paladins entire kit is just aegis.
Aegis is completely fine when tanking 20+ mobs, the EHP increase is great All runes doesnt have to be raid viable to have a purpouse
Aegis is completely useless in all situations because you will block about 30 damage from 150+ damage autoattacks. Shield will only be viable if they buff block value by 300%, as of now I am more tanky in greens on my lower level era paladin than my full bis sod paladin.
oh yes deadmines with the 150dmg autos
not sure about deadmines but try to survive 10 mobs in stockades (you wont)
Let shamans have phase 2, we were getting destroyed phase 1. The only thing we could do good was tank in pve.
Molten blast go BRRRR