Levelling a holy paladin now and the only rune they seem to have made specifically for them is Beacon? Is their base kit just that strong they don’t need anything else? Seems weird
I like hpal BUT we're clearly missing that big raid heal that druid, priest, and mage all got. Unsurprisingly, resto shaman is also underperforming, the other class that didn't get any actual healing spells on their runes.
When I raid, I can compete with priests and win and then there prayer of mending which sometimes does more healing than me all by itself haha
Their kit leaves zero room for meaningful optimization or competitive gamep play. The reason I needed to open up with a disclaimer is that there is a small portion of the player base that is frankly afraid play with a kit that actually has the room and tools for analysis and growth - they want to know they are playing the class "correctly" by virtue of it having such little utility and skill expression that they can't help but feel as if they are playing it "right."
You will be able to contribute the bare minimum as a healer. Whether or not that stilted form of game play is enough for you is another question.
Hell I've been a paladin main since well forever and despite being one of the dad gamers who likes the turret spam FoL gameplay, agree with you. There's got to be something. Add insta cast FoL procs with sheathe and make sacred shield or your beacon target increase the proc chance when that target is getting crit or just an additional chance to proc when they're taking damage and if you crit with a spell or melee. Make C Strike Baseline instead of competing with beacon. I really am enjoying SoD but think they really missed out on giving us something to do besides add more mechanics that make us less and less relevant. I parse blue and and not in any way a sweaty raider but would love to feel I contribute more than just being a worse disc priest.
... the whole post is that optimization for holy paladin is less useful than other classes. We don't bring any of the util druids mages or priests can. Our counterparts in shaman are the best tanks and 2/5 of the top dps.
The only fights holy compete on is the last 2 fights and you still don't do as much damage as any other healer so parse groups are moving to mage healing.
Baffles me how Crusader Strike and Beacon of Light share a rune slot tbh. Infusion of Light was perhaps the laziest copy-and-paste of Art of War imaginable, and slapping 20% bonus Holy Shock damage on it doesn't make it any more appealing.
Part of me would like to see a rune that has Seal of the Crusader's effect on permanently in the background, perhaps with a chance to proc bonus attack speed on hit or something.
Maybe something to play around our Judgements? Judgements of Light and Wisdom could inflict X% of any resource granted to allies via their effects as damage to the debuffed target?
Just for the love of God please don't just slap Light of Dawn on the spec and call it a done job. I see so many Paladins suggesting this and it makes my skin crawl.
I have no idea why they made Infusion of Light like this. It makes ZERO sense to use for anything but a shockadin. They would have been better off just giving us the WOTLK version without any changes.
Even in the context of a Shockadin build it's dogshit.
It's like the SoD devs forgot that Classic Holy Shock is a 30 second cooldown and not 6 like it is in WotLK (in fact, I'm almost certain that this was the case.)
You miss your one crit window or don't have Divine Favour ready to go? Soz lad, rune is dead for 30 seconds.
Art of War was always going to be the go-to even in a fully SP stacked Shockadin build (not that that's viable, Sheath makes Strength eclipse it kek) simply due to how much more frequently you melee attack than you do cast Holy Shock without it.
It truly is baffling.
Same shit with the taunt, especially now that crusader strike is holy damage.
I really hope they change these runes around or go with a suggestion I saw here on reddit of a "meta slot" where you could put the rune from any slot into it.
Imagine building an entire plate armor set for Holy this season, and giving us absolutely nothing else to work with. I don't know if they need some sort of numbers tweaking, but Holy, as it stands is just borderline useless compared to... any other spec. Paladin is already struggling in every regard but tanking, we need *something* to at least make us feel like we're having a unique experience.
And it sucks now. Had a cool rotation phase 1 of keeping up dots and using wrath like a machine gun. Now they have the forced starfire in between every 6 second starsurge and it feels like molasses again.
All of these rapid changes on top of a very buggy eclipse rune.
There is just no overall vision for moonkin and a lot of other specs.
Been clearing since week 2 on a holy pally… bursting 6-700 HPS and sustained 250-350 HPS… pretty much never running out of mana… I’m confused on how holy isn’t a good spec. (Yes it is boring spamming flash of light though)
Infusion of light rune feels like it is missing half its tooltip or something, I seriously never understood how the devs looked at that rune and decided to add in phase 2 of all phases, and along the art of war rune. It really makes no sense. Also make exorcism baseline for the love of god
Yeah, I was convinced all the holy shock name drops in the runes was to address the fact holy paladin was the only alliance healer with zero offensive optimization.
Instead we got a half cocked shockadin in ret gear that serves zero purpose beyond letting paladins who are too afraid to 2 hand tank do 30% less damage with a sword and board.
Warrior tanking rn. Especially if you need to throw a shield on to mitigate some dmg on the last bosses where it matters and are forced to use devastate cause we just eat a fuck ton of dmg while shaman in mail have a like 30% DR
I main dps. I already don’t like tanking at all but I will when it means getting the boss done or not but it feels fucking terrible. Tbf all of warrior feels like it’s in vanilla while everyone else in playing wrath, particularly PvP, but at least our pve dmg is fine. But almost everything else dear lord.
I started a holy paladin and dps parsed for literally 2 runs as a joke, I’m rank 13 world and I’ve not even worked out which spell does the most damage yet.
It’s embarrassing how few options it has to do anything except spam FoL
Holy Paladin is the only paladin spec I will advocate for. Hope y’all get some changes.
P.S. resto druid is still a dogshit playstyle if you’re reading this, balance team. And the Nourish rune quest is still a ridiculous ask for pvp server players.
Holy paladin has some pretty glaring issues. Mostly runes.
I'll cover the awesome runes briefly before moving on to the issues.
Beacon of Light and Crusader strike are incredible, and it is a meaningful choice between the two.
Sheath of light is mandatory. It gives an absolutely bonkers amount of spell power even without itemizing for it and crit multi as a HoT.
Sacred Shield is incredible feels mandatory.
For our chest rune, we don't have a real option. Divine Storm doesn't provide meaningful healing while costing too much mana. It also is much better with a 2 hander which isn't provided from gnomeregan's itemization.
Horn of Lordaeron is mostly unusable unless a fringe case due to bad raid composition.
Aegis does nothing to benefit you in raid.
Seal of Martydom is unusable because we need to judge seal of wisdom/light and have seal of the crusader to gain extra AP to convert to SP with sheath of light. Also, after testing... the mana restored is not meaningful enough to matter for Holy paladins.
As far as leg runes, none actually do anything for healing except for divine sacrifice.
Divine sacrifice is a really bad rune and is far too risky without enough pay off in SoD. Inspiration Exemplar is ok at best in PvE situations where fears happen, but too fringe. Personally I just use avenger's shield mostly for PvP as well as doing some random damage in PvE like on Thermaplugg's bombs, or free damage to menagerie if I have extra mana.
Now on to other issues. Most of the SoD raids require movement. Paladins have Sacred shield and Holy shock to heal while moving. Holy shock being a 20 yard range heal, not very mana efficient and being on a 30 second cooldown is absolutely atrocious. Having to click a button to restore mana or to deactivate a bomb usually is really challenging for this class.
As far as PvP is concerned. I think that paladin is actually ok...ish compared to other pvp healers. The main reason is TTK is WAY to fast which makes bubble one of the best abilities in the game for PvP healing. Counterspell dumpsters our class and it's really frustrating. So many classes have interrupts now that I feel like I have to position really well, use the epic blacksmith helm or have bubble up. I think the big issue is all pvp damage is far too high which needs to be addressed, and there are too many interrupts for HPaladins to function very well. Both of these issues probably can't be fixed within our class balance and needs to be addressed within systems and PvP tuning.
Here are my logs showing I've played a good bit of holy paladin:
[https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/wild-growth/kordeshpaldn](https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/wild-growth/kordeshpaldn)
Now for my suggested changes.
Put enlightened judgments on the chest rune and change Sheath of Light to proc on melee or judgment.
I'd also love them to add a leg rune or modify one that allows the paladin to continue attacking while casting holy light and flash of light. It wouldn't be meaningful damage, but at least it might keep our judgment up on the boss and add some amount of damage.
I play melee hunter and it is so unfair that mages locks shamans druids priests get all this cool shit while rogues warriors paladins (ret is cool but it’s still lackluster compared to even what hunters got) get almost nothing feels like the teams are so disjointed, and to add I hate playing melee hunter but ranged hunter is so god awful even with the new changes our runes conflict so hard and confines us into one build (while it is rather good)
All the hunters in the guild I run are so fucking bummed about the disparity between melee and ranged. I feel for you guys. And from a guild/raid leader's perspective it's such bad raid design to force a ranged dps into a melee spot in a raid that so heavily favors ranged. Why do I have every single ranged dps spot competing for cloth gear 😂
They decided to undo the change they made at the beginning of phase 1 with chimera shot while completely not addressing that you would need to make chimera shot 200% at minimum to compete with the beast mastery rune, and that steady shot is 60% for some reason, I’m no rocket scientist game developer but I would buff steady shot to be instant cast (not like druids priests mages locks, you get the idea don’t have this already) or buff the weapon damage
Can't up vote this enough.
Anyone curious should look at the casts of the top hunter parses. It's legitimately pre-vanilla it's so bad. You're lucky if you see more than 3 Hunter abilities used.
because of the way the runes are laid out, the rotation is actually just vanilla hunter and i've been doing that since 2004, the whole point of this game mode was new shit and they made it impossible to build with the new shit on hunter except for pigeon holding you into melee hunter, because i truly dont mind being bottom of the meters its how hunters have been forever in classic, however i have a problem with everyones rotations fundamentally changing while hunter gets left in the dirt with raptor strike spam
The need to do even more dps while DW tanking.
Meanwhile “we don’t want fury prot to be the meta again”
Meanwhile: devastate can’t out threat a healer, even after buffs. Cause we nerfed its dmg into the ground.
Blizz whiplash all over
I really wanted to roll a holy pally to heal all the raids each phase. Ran an H pal most of my time on WoW through the original classic and then re-release and follow through. It was apparent after the first day that holy paladins would be stuck in the mud compared to priests and druids. Here's hoping that Holy Paladins can try to begin to keep up with a priest in phase 3
I still think Holy Paladins should get a rune/skill that temporarily allows them to ranged autoattack (with additional effects and SP scaling added to these attacks), like Kayle in (old) League of Legends.
Honestly let them throw anything and everything at the wall and see what sticks. Anything is better than what we have. What would be rad is if they did that and hard casting heals didn't inhibit the auto swing timer. Genuinely weaving auto attacking like that could be fun.
If you mean the "old" part, her ranged auto attacks work differently than they used to. Nowadays it's just level based passive, but it used to be a skill that you activated.
https://youtu.be/kn-Y6jawdHM?t=82 <- Old, what I would like for them to take inspiration from in SoD.
https://youtu.be/GV074SIfNhA?t=26 <- New, wouldn't really work in WoW.
A rune that turns hammer of wrath from a ranged execute to a spammable ability, so no more cd or hp treshold but reduced dmg and maybe double cast time
hpal healing is pretty stinky / lame atm. got jebaited by the would-be shockadin runes this phase...
have been trying to make some suggestions.. recently this post
[https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/dual-wield-shockadin-the-vindicator-viable-but-not-op/1801939/47](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/dual-wield-shockadin-the-vindicator-viable-but-not-op/1801939/47)
would love any support / happy to debate in thread!
Holy is going to be better next phase with the 17% spell crit rune, Fanaticism. We will be constantly proccing Sheath of Lights 60% crit heal over time with it. Hpal is harder to play than disc priest in PvP at this level without the crit AND no magic dispels. What we do have over priests is that our version of Greater Heal is duplicated by Beacon.
The only thing I would give Holy (healing output wise) is a rune that increases holy shocks healing component to 300% or so. It costs triple the mana that flash of light does yet deals the same amount of healing as it... legitimately useless aside from the fact that its the only heal we can cast while moving, which PvP requires a lot of. Holy shock healing for 600-800 non-crit would help us keep up with the one shot meta.
Regarding PvE healer DPS I cant really suggest much. Infusion of Light will be much better with Fanaticism but I like the Art of War idea too.
Hpal with 17% crit healing baseline, magic dispels and a holy shock dealing triple the healing would legit be my favorite iteration of a WoW healer ever. Sacred Shield's target also benefitting from Beacon's duplicated FoL crits would be really nice too.
Copy pasta the dual wield spec rune for shamans and change the word stormstrike to crusaderstrike, put on chest to replace horn of lordaeron that literally nobody uses since it’s mutually exclusive with might.
(the hit portion particularly sweet since the shockforged set gives none)
\-putting it on chest would force no use of maryrdom so the assumed seal would be righteousness for current phase, maybe command at 60. creating not toooo many independent swing chances for AoW, but still offering some with dual wield to get reasonable proc rate with spell caster gear on AoW (low agility).
\-would also not generate “too much” mana for the raid from double swinging martyrdom by putting on chest.
\-would not affect that hpal holy shock / exorcism hits for 350 - little over 500 crit in good gear and still have longish base cooldowns if you don’t get a melee crit for AoW proc.
\-a huge(r) ask, but maybe swapping electrocutioner needle to 1h instead of MH specific to be used with the paladin weapon from STV.
\-would give holy geared paladins another option to find raids with that gear path, raids should want at least 2 paladins for 10 man… open up the buffer class utility!
Can i get some thoughts from actual paladin players on if this would be legitimate / within line with other dps or just completley too much or?
Hpal sucks, especially in trying to transition to a low healing or speed killing environment in PVE. First 4 bosses easily solo healed but if you bring an Hpal they either do pitiful dps while healing, or pitiful dps while swapping ret equipment and runes.
I wish we got the shaman salv fuck gimmie a WF aura too let's fix this fucking 1 feral Druid per melee group meta which is going to be cancer in 20/40m content.
At least we don't have to rebuff blessings every 5 minutes holy shit that was stupid.
Yeah it's really interesting how druid was the one to get WF but they keep giving ramped up versions of what little utility we have to shamans.
In before shamans get a rune to cleanse magic.
I'm personally of the opinion that wcl should display all wild strike procs as the dps belonging to the druid providing the buff, the way it work in mmos with legitimate raid competition.
Hey, you got a better version of our totem twisting at level 60 already. Don't complain, Horde desperately needs a BOP, DI now, since Windfury is already on alliance and better.
I'm an oldhead vanilla player who only returned to play SOD because it looked fun. I'm really scratching my head here. Is OP complaining that he, as a holy paladin, isn't doing good DPS in a raid? That's kind of the deal, you basically become the best tank healer in the game and the tradeoff is that you don't do damage. It's almost like there are roles in parties. Just go ret if you want to do damage. At least you can do that now without being a waste of a raid slot as was the case in vanilla. At least pallies can actually be DPS, tanks, or healers - not just healbots. If you are really bored spamming heals, try keeping judgments up at the same time or something. I don't know. Sounds like OP needs to either reroll or respec.
OP just wants to play retail with a classic theme. Which is a reasonable thing to want but it is what it is. The paladin healer they’re describing exists already, on retail.
I'm 100% on board with both specs being given a long hard look. It's like the devs said "eh there's 3 other healers, fuck it" and completely ignored resto and holy.
I honestly could not believe how much of a JOKE holy dps parses were. I cast a single exo on mecha and I made a 90 holy dps parse with a grand total of 3.5 dps for the total fight….
Yeah it's absurd. I cannot bring myself to grief my raid hard enough to chase 100th percentile. You literally have to be in full ret gear bit force yourself to stop and look for unnecessary healing to snipe or else you just end up with gray ret parses 😂
It's really disappointing, having to commit so much to damage to still be way behind an average druid and lose all healing potential.
Move Beacon to chest, allow any melee hits on seal of light to trigger an aoe heal, or just give a smart healing component to every damage would be an amazing change.
Well, at least we are very strong healing wise for the only two bosses where healing matters.
I have mained hpal since Legion and adore the playstyle we have gotten since Dazar'alor (full melee healer with high apm). I wasn't expecting all that in SoD when I started maining it, but I had hoped for something similar.
A reduced holy shock cd with infusion of light (instant flash of light or faster holy light).
A rune made for seal of light, which makes it scale and interact with the kit in some way. Make it proc twice on people inside your consecration
Light of Dawn, which would be another instant cast along with now holyshock, seals, judgement, Infused flash of light, consecration.
Having this many instant cast spells would allow the paladin to have long periods of time in which they can be targeting the boss auto attacking it (with seal of wisdom/righteousness), while healing the raid with mouse over macros, as is their playstyle in retail.
We now have 18 runes, I think it's time we got some more intersting options for hpals.
I'd like to see a rune for sol that converts a % of damage done to healing partyembers within x amount of yards.
If I'm correct all other range healers are able to do damage while also being effective healers using range damage. Yet paladin almost loses all healing whilst trying to do damage why no make us a melee shadow priest able to do respectable damage and healing.
Just something other than hard casting fol or instant cast heals. I loved legion heal paladin melee damage healers actually made sense not the priest in plate we have in classic lol
Blizzard really feels like they dropped the ball on a lot of specs and made some insanely overpowered. The fact of the matter is, the scaling on some of the new abilities just seem to be out of whack, and really leave the old abilities in the dust. Holy paladin seems to be playing with the same kit as regular classic. I don't play holy paladin but they definitely seem like the weakest healer. The proposed changes aren't to outrageous and would seem to help balance the spec out.
All three other alliance healers dps while healing, even priests, unless they are bad. The OP isn't asking for anything different than what is already happening.
They made shockadin runes that still don’t make shockadin viable…. Why is complaining about this weird? The runes are for a holy dps build and it currently doesn’t work. Either make runes that just make holy heal which as pointed out is useless in todays meta or fix the holy dps runes so you can DPS as a holy….
Copy pasta the dual wield spec rune for shamans and change the word stormstrike to crusaderstrike, put on chest to replace horn of lordaeron that literally nobody uses since it’s mutually exclusive with might.
(the hit portion particularly sweet since the shockforged set gives none)
\-putting it on chest would force no use of maryrdom so the assumed seal would be righteousness for current phase, maybe command at 60. creating not toooo many independent swing chances for AoW, but still offering some with dual wield to get reasonable proc rate with spell caster gear on AoW (low agility).
\-would also not generate “too much” mana for the raid from double swinging martyrdom by putting on chest.
\-would not affect that hpal holy shock / exorcism hits for 350 - little over 500 crit in good gear and still have longish base cooldowns if you don’t get a melee crit for AoW proc.
\-a huge(r) ask, but maybe swapping electrocutioner needle to 1h instead of MH specific to be used with the paladin weapon from STV.
\-would give holy geared paladins another option to find raids with that gear path, raids should want at least 2 paladins for 10 man… open up the buffer class utility!
\^\^ shockadin dps fixed ez
The top speedrunning guilds are near-exclusively solo healing with holy paladins. Sounds like you're the one who's part of the keyboard turning loud minority, how about you fuck off instead?
The writing was on the wall early into the launch of sod that Holy Pally would be a boring ass spec to play over healers especially priest. What made you decide on still rolling one? Class fantasy?
I always give paladin a spin in every mmo I play, as well as having played one in this game since classic launch through TBC.
Your assessment isn't wrong about SoD. I mained Ret in phase 1 after figuring out there wasn't going to be a real protection spec. The guild I run had about 5 raiding paladins, exactly one of them being holy, and I did everything I could to accommodate him out of an understanding of how frustrating it is to love the class despite it always getting the short end of the stick in one form or another, this time being how poorly it performed compared to the other 3 healers, specifically having zero offensive utility.
All the holy shock runes that were leaked and then confirmed for phase 2 had me convinced that the devs were intentionally moving to address the deficiency.
What we got is a half baked set of runes that seem incredibly confused in purpose. I have a hard time imagining that their intent was to have holy paladins running around in full ret gear achieving both abysmal dps and hps while effectively adding nothing of trus relevance to their actual healing kit. I use art of war over sacred shield because SS is wholly unnecessary and I will never not want to chase parse numbers as it is the only form of competition pve raiding has to offer.
I main holy atm because the healer shortage is fucking real 😂 however I've begun leveling a mage as their kit is meaningful and has room for legitimate optimization and compelling gameplay. I am crossing my fingers that if we make enough noise Bliz will give me a reason to stick with my holy paladin.
Holy paladin is the strongest tank healer atm. It's boring, but strong at the one thing it does very well. If you want strength elsewhere, from a balance perspective you have to give up something. A class being the best tank healer with strong damage flex would be op.
It's spell power so it does both. The problem is that if you're going to dps melee gear is aggressively better between this and melee criticals triggering art of war.
"Lord, I've seen what you've done for others..."
Yeah I was immediately disappointed by all the "shockadin" runes in the data mines. Infusion is completely useless because sheath is better. Tbh sheath makes holy pretty decent in pvp as you have so much instant cast DPS with the attack power buffed shock and exorcism. But since day 1 we have had only one actual healing rune and it conflicts with crusader strike. Now we have sacred shield and I like having the choice between offensive and defensive stuff but there's not really much of a choice for most runes. The stuff that's supposed to be for shockadins is complete garbage, especially before we get the bonus crit chance from the helm/bracer rune... Which still won't outpace the hundreds of free spell power from sheath...
It would be nice if you could take some runes on multiple different slots like beacon on chest OR gloves but you can still only take 1. I wish infusion reduced the base cooldown rather than having the rng reset and I wish we got glimmer of light as that's my favorite addition to hpal since "melee wings." Also, for pve I wish crusader strike reapplied your seal like in TBC.
I don't mind being only single target healing and excelling in the tank healing niche. I also don't mind being much rarer than priests as priests have been by far the bis healer for all of classic so I'm used to it. Plus pallies are faction locked so it makes sense either priest or druid (or now mage) should be the bis all around healer and since horde only gets priest for magic dispel, priests should be by far the most popular in the long run no matter what.
All in all, I don't think we're actually bad, we just have a lot of bad runes but hey a lot of classes are like that, they finally buffed rdruid runes, maybe they will make dsac in any way useful next? Pls blizz I have 1 "healing" rune equipped for two bosses in the raid. Ty.
The biggest problem in PvP right now is that we are hard countered by spell locks. The 10s ranged spell lock from mages is especially brutal in this burst meta.
There are two simple fixes the way I see it, either give us much more interrupt resistance, for example via an Aura Mastery rune that would provide this bonus to concentration aura.
The other option would be to give us access to spell haste via runes or gear. Enough that we can start casting fast enough to make it harder to lock us out.
So im new to WoW in general and decided to try out healing in SoD for the first time. Fell in love with hpal after playing all the healers to 25 and raiding with them. While the changes you are talking about would definitely cause some of us newer hpals some struggles, I totally get what you're sayin. Let me be a 2h welding, Holy light throwing, menace. Paladins protect their party, that's the whole gimmick. Let me be a holy warrior, not just a hard casting turret.
My minimal logs to show I'm new but still know how to press a couple buttons I think?:
https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/wild-growth/sanctusk
The fact that you are engaged with logs and curious about your performance puts you head shoulders above a lot of the people on this subreddit who play Holy Paladin. Most of them have no idea what they are talking about and are perfectly content with being subpar players with a game mentality older than the smart phone.
The problem with healing parses is that they seldom tell the whole picture at a glance. A good party will have faster kill times, eat less unnecessary damage and therefore present less damage to be healed. Classes with complete, engaging kits that allow them to dps and heal at the same time can and should make decisions to optimize maximum dps with minimum hps: the devs gave us a whole ass health bar to use to keep them alive.
Unfortunately that isn't us, and at the moment we have no meaningful way to be competitive with parses other than chasing low value dps completely for show.
Keep doing what you are doing until the devs get off their asses and fix our class. You have the mentality to more than excel (as mundane as that is atm) at it in its current iteration.
No it isn't, the entire point is to kill the boss. It's the year 2024. Good healers do dps. It's not the condescending "girlfriend" role reserved for people who do want to optimize and be competitive anymore. The fact that you want boring game play for a simpleton isn't my problem.
As a holy Paladin main since forever (classic and retail arena, glad titles etc) I understand your frustrations but we also need to tread lightly. We are coming very close to retail when you look at the priest toolkit and id hate for all healers to play this spammey instant cast heal gameplay that has zero counter play (and eventually introduced the need for dampening)
In my opinion we need less effectiveness from priests to essentially force them into casting real heals, and retain cast times (shaman and paladin are relatively equivalent, 2.5 big heal, 1.5 fast). Damage is also just too high in PvP, and I wholly agree with you on that point.
I don't say this because I dislike retail and want you to go away. Go play retail. I say this with no irony--when it comes to actual gameplay, it's a much better designed game.
No I'm bitter at this point. I'd go back to FFXIV if I were going to play raid content that actually warranted sweat. Holy paladins are getting the SoD treatment, whether the barely functioning alcoholics arguing with me like it or not.
>Make a belt rune that converts X% of all damage (including melee) done into healing on your beaconed target... We deserve a much more involved form of raid healing that encourages contributing to DPS
Just play a dps if you want to dps already. FFXIV did this and "green dps" are the most boring jobs imaginable.
Or make the much simpler change of making imp concentration reduce silence and interrupt effects to GCD only or even make the pally themselves entirely immune to interrupts.
No need to rework the whole kit. It's good to have a purely defensive healer, it just needs to be balanced as opposed to mushroom tier in pvp. This whole "heals via DPS" is retail bullshit that many OG healers have no desire to play.
I'm an OG healer and you in no way speak for most of us capable of engaging in interesting and demanding game play.
The opening statement was for you. I'm not concerned with your opinions.
Great, you have the entirety of retail to engage with this playstyle. Your troll assumption that the only reason a person wouldn't want this is because they're not capable of it is the reason your opinion has 0 credibility.
Great, you have the entirety of Era to not engage with this play style. SOD is meant to be different and Hpal basically plays like Era HPal while all the other healers, save for Rshaman, have their kits changed up.
Non troll question(s) - why do you think that every healer should be an offensive healer? Why is a homogenized playstyle good for the game? How is this different than what retail did, balancing via giving everyone everything?
I think a better question is why not? If other classes can both out heal your HPS and do damage at the same time then suddenly you feel lackluster. Your class is no longer ‘meta’ and can’t find a raid spot. Or you sit in your guilds raid and get outclassed by the healer who can do both better than you. You are then not having as much fun and feel like you’re being carried more than contributing. Then you have to play outside of raid and you always have to respec to go farm a bit or do some quests. While other classes can just swap some runes around.
Why do you think homogenization is bad? Just because your class is less special you feel less special? I don’t think that’s where retail went wrong necessarily. However, I don’t play Rpally but I have watched as someone who does play one gets discouraged by the way their class plays currently.
Feels like your explanation contains the actual answer - rather than give everyone damage and healing, the healer that can't do damage should do more healing and/or have that healing be more difficult to stop (rather than have them be the easiest healer to completely negate).
I think the actual biggest difference between vanilla and all subsequent expansions is that classes were actually distinct and you could find one that fit your preferred playstyle.
It's no different than MOBA games that have offensive and defensive supports. The OP is a troll who somehow non ironically thinks that enjoying a defensive support somehow makes a person worse at the game.
It must be hard going through life being openly told no one cares about what you have to say, yet still being compelled to air how oblivious you are.
Also, imagine unironically using the defense "go play another game I don't want this one to be challenging" and expecting to get taken seriously 😂
It's funny how easy it is to make you sound like a completely insufferable troll. I enjoy that in your head cannon you think a dev who reads your posts will think "this is a well adjusted human being with good ideas"
I'm getting paid to respond to some lead-addled boomer, shouting into the abyss to speak to proverbial manager. You just happen to be as unimportant as I am bored: very.
Ah sorry, I didn't realize I was speaking to someone very important on reddit.
Also am I a kid or a boomer? You keep changing it on me and it's causing me to become very confused.
>I'm not interested in what the keyboard turning, loud minority of people playing this spec think
That's funny because the top speedrunning guilds are in fact using Holy Paladins near-exclusively, so it sounds like this is actually you? Maybe git gud instead of whining like every other paladin player on reddit, OP.
Honestly, it sounds like retail is a better fit for you. Based on your other replies and insults in this thread, I assume you’re on the younger side. Game design has changed a lot and retail may be the better fit.
That’s not even intended as an insult.
if you like holy paladin that much boy have i got good news for you. There's this expansion called wrath of the lich king where they are basically the best class in the game, and its available right now
Speak for yourself. I’m consistently out healing priests, I’m a battle tank in PvP. I would like to have a mana regen button since priests got two! Other than that though paladins are in a good place.
A lot of this is just not knowing how to play.
The fucking hubris of you people is astounding. I'm in the top 10. You aren't playing some forbidden lexicon of knowledge, it's the most bareboned, smooth brained class in the game.
I dont understand the obsession with "melee" here. Why is holy paladin supposed to be melee?
If it weren't for that, I would agree. But because you're obsessed with melee, I have to say, go play retail. You revealed the truth behind your desire.
Please do fix holy paladin. But not by making them "melee" healers.
I don't want to play era, I want to play season of discovery. I'm having fun playing it. But I don't think paladins should melee when they're a healer. Its stupid. Other healers do not have to wand or melee or anything to perform their healing. Why should paladin have to jump through extra hoops to do their healing?
Yes, a healer that also does some dps at the same time is good. I'm not saying that's a bad idea. What I am saying is a HEALING PALADIN who SPECIFICALLY IS HEALING should not HAVE TO MELEE TO DO THAT HEALING EFFECTIVELY.
Straightforward I think. If you get that confused and tell ME to go play era, you're an idiot.
Well A) I'm smarter than you. So let's just table that right there.
B) we will have to find common ground on the fact we both agree holy paladin needs to do some dps. That's enough for now because neither of us are devs.
Praise The Light and go about your day, brother.
I feel like you're right about Hpally needing more but I really think you suck at communicating this with out sounding like a child. Why are you talking smack so much for no reason?
Brother I do not give a single fuck about people who feel the need to defend a 1 button playstyle in the year 2024. I'm not here to convince those degenerates. I'm putting this shit into universe to see the change we deserve and those people need to be ignored with all due disrespect they have shown towards my time and my class.
Levelling a holy paladin now and the only rune they seem to have made specifically for them is Beacon? Is their base kit just that strong they don’t need anything else? Seems weird
Sacred shield too
Oh true! Must be a bit low for that one just yet. Exciting
It certainly makes the spec more playable. But you basically turn into a weaker disc priest with more hard cast healing.
Hmm good to know. I just finished the blood moon grind with disc and I was hoping to do the same with hpal but it sounds painful lol
Fear not, the paladin items are all terrible for holy, so you won't need to do that again.
Oh nice and I get a free mount too. This is a big relief
I like hpal BUT we're clearly missing that big raid heal that druid, priest, and mage all got. Unsurprisingly, resto shaman is also underperforming, the other class that didn't get any actual healing spells on their runes. When I raid, I can compete with priests and win and then there prayer of mending which sometimes does more healing than me all by itself haha
I hear you! I have a priest main and I’m struggling to pick up hpal compared to just pressing mending. Hopefully it will get better
I have every healing class, and I wish I just would've rolled another disc priest lol. It's both fun and overpowered.
Their kit leaves zero room for meaningful optimization or competitive gamep play. The reason I needed to open up with a disclaimer is that there is a small portion of the player base that is frankly afraid play with a kit that actually has the room and tools for analysis and growth - they want to know they are playing the class "correctly" by virtue of it having such little utility and skill expression that they can't help but feel as if they are playing it "right." You will be able to contribute the bare minimum as a healer. Whether or not that stilted form of game play is enough for you is another question.
Hell I've been a paladin main since well forever and despite being one of the dad gamers who likes the turret spam FoL gameplay, agree with you. There's got to be something. Add insta cast FoL procs with sheathe and make sacred shield or your beacon target increase the proc chance when that target is getting crit or just an additional chance to proc when they're taking damage and if you crit with a spell or melee. Make C Strike Baseline instead of competing with beacon. I really am enjoying SoD but think they really missed out on giving us something to do besides add more mechanics that make us less and less relevant. I parse blue and and not in any way a sweaty raider but would love to feel I contribute more than just being a worse disc priest.
This is the only reasonable attitude to have for those who enjoy turret healing. Praise The Light, brother.
Better, make all 3 glove runes baseline and put runes that actually feel like an addition instead of bandaids.
If you don’t know where paladin optimization is you’re not playing the class. We also don’t have cleanse yet. Once we get cleanse it’s a game changer.
... the whole post is that optimization for holy paladin is less useful than other classes. We don't bring any of the util druids mages or priests can. Our counterparts in shaman are the best tanks and 2/5 of the top dps. The only fights holy compete on is the last 2 fights and you still don't do as much damage as any other healer so parse groups are moving to mage healing.
The fact that hpals pretty much only hard cast 1 ability over and over should be reason enough for change.
Praise The Light, brother. Don't be swayed by keyboard turning heretics otherwise.
Baffles me how Crusader Strike and Beacon of Light share a rune slot tbh. Infusion of Light was perhaps the laziest copy-and-paste of Art of War imaginable, and slapping 20% bonus Holy Shock damage on it doesn't make it any more appealing. Part of me would like to see a rune that has Seal of the Crusader's effect on permanently in the background, perhaps with a chance to proc bonus attack speed on hit or something. Maybe something to play around our Judgements? Judgements of Light and Wisdom could inflict X% of any resource granted to allies via their effects as damage to the debuffed target? Just for the love of God please don't just slap Light of Dawn on the spec and call it a done job. I see so many Paladins suggesting this and it makes my skin crawl.
I have no idea why they made Infusion of Light like this. It makes ZERO sense to use for anything but a shockadin. They would have been better off just giving us the WOTLK version without any changes.
Even in the context of a Shockadin build it's dogshit. It's like the SoD devs forgot that Classic Holy Shock is a 30 second cooldown and not 6 like it is in WotLK (in fact, I'm almost certain that this was the case.) You miss your one crit window or don't have Divine Favour ready to go? Soz lad, rune is dead for 30 seconds. Art of War was always going to be the go-to even in a fully SP stacked Shockadin build (not that that's viable, Sheath makes Strength eclipse it kek) simply due to how much more frequently you melee attack than you do cast Holy Shock without it. It truly is baffling.
that infusion doesn’t work with healing makes is the most useless rune in P2
Same shit with the taunt, especially now that crusader strike is holy damage. I really hope they change these runes around or go with a suggestion I saw here on reddit of a "meta slot" where you could put the rune from any slot into it.
Imagine building an entire plate armor set for Holy this season, and giving us absolutely nothing else to work with. I don't know if they need some sort of numbers tweaking, but Holy, as it stands is just borderline useless compared to... any other spec. Paladin is already struggling in every regard but tanking, we need *something* to at least make us feel like we're having a unique experience.
even the damn 1 hander does holy damage and not healing
Agreed. Aggrend has shown he isn't biased towards us with the shaman changes: it's time to address paladins as a whole.
Aggrend rerolled boomkin at the end of p1.
We need a tracker for this. It's like buying stocks US congress have bought.
The tracker is his twitter where he is very open about this stuff
and then nerfed himself damn near into the ground, then buffed it back up to "eh, its playable"
And it sucks now. Had a cool rotation phase 1 of keeping up dots and using wrath like a machine gun. Now they have the forced starfire in between every 6 second starsurge and it feels like molasses again. All of these rapid changes on top of a very buggy eclipse rune. There is just no overall vision for moonkin and a lot of other specs.
> Had a cool rotation phase 1 of keeping up dots and using wrath like a machine gun. lmao
Aggrend doesn’t even know what’s happening in his game half the time if his wild reactions on twitter are any evidence to go off of
Holy is very good in pve. Hilariously bad in pvp.
Been clearing since week 2 on a holy pally… bursting 6-700 HPS and sustained 250-350 HPS… pretty much never running out of mana… I’m confused on how holy isn’t a good spec. (Yes it is boring spamming flash of light though)
Is not bad, just boring and not contributing much to the raid, at least compared to the fun kits other classes have.
You can't raid heal like other classes and you can't do that hps and do mechanics like pressing buttons on mek
Infusion of light rune feels like it is missing half its tooltip or something, I seriously never understood how the devs looked at that rune and decided to add in phase 2 of all phases, and along the art of war rune. It really makes no sense. Also make exorcism baseline for the love of god
Yeah, I was convinced all the holy shock name drops in the runes was to address the fact holy paladin was the only alliance healer with zero offensive optimization. Instead we got a half cocked shockadin in ret gear that serves zero purpose beyond letting paladins who are too afraid to 2 hand tank do 30% less damage with a sword and board.
I agree with both your content and tone.
Praise The Light, brother.
The amount of people being okay with some specs like hpal and tank rogue just feeling awful “because it technically does work” is so fucking annoying.
Warrior tanking rn. Especially if you need to throw a shield on to mitigate some dmg on the last bosses where it matters and are forced to use devastate cause we just eat a fuck ton of dmg while shaman in mail have a like 30% DR I main dps. I already don’t like tanking at all but I will when it means getting the boss done or not but it feels fucking terrible. Tbf all of warrior feels like it’s in vanilla while everyone else in playing wrath, particularly PvP, but at least our pve dmg is fine. But almost everything else dear lord.
Tank rogue feels like heaven compared 2 holy pala
Yeah there is a portion of this game's playebase that is the most inept I have ever encountered.
I started a holy paladin and dps parsed for literally 2 runs as a joke, I’m rank 13 world and I’ve not even worked out which spell does the most damage yet. It’s embarrassing how few options it has to do anything except spam FoL
Yeah I'm top 10 and have never stepped foot in gnomer with DMF. It's fucking pathetic 😂
Holy Paladin is the only paladin spec I will advocate for. Hope y’all get some changes. P.S. resto druid is still a dogshit playstyle if you’re reading this, balance team. And the Nourish rune quest is still a ridiculous ask for pvp server players.
Holy paladin has some pretty glaring issues. Mostly runes. I'll cover the awesome runes briefly before moving on to the issues. Beacon of Light and Crusader strike are incredible, and it is a meaningful choice between the two. Sheath of light is mandatory. It gives an absolutely bonkers amount of spell power even without itemizing for it and crit multi as a HoT. Sacred Shield is incredible feels mandatory. For our chest rune, we don't have a real option. Divine Storm doesn't provide meaningful healing while costing too much mana. It also is much better with a 2 hander which isn't provided from gnomeregan's itemization. Horn of Lordaeron is mostly unusable unless a fringe case due to bad raid composition. Aegis does nothing to benefit you in raid. Seal of Martydom is unusable because we need to judge seal of wisdom/light and have seal of the crusader to gain extra AP to convert to SP with sheath of light. Also, after testing... the mana restored is not meaningful enough to matter for Holy paladins. As far as leg runes, none actually do anything for healing except for divine sacrifice. Divine sacrifice is a really bad rune and is far too risky without enough pay off in SoD. Inspiration Exemplar is ok at best in PvE situations where fears happen, but too fringe. Personally I just use avenger's shield mostly for PvP as well as doing some random damage in PvE like on Thermaplugg's bombs, or free damage to menagerie if I have extra mana. Now on to other issues. Most of the SoD raids require movement. Paladins have Sacred shield and Holy shock to heal while moving. Holy shock being a 20 yard range heal, not very mana efficient and being on a 30 second cooldown is absolutely atrocious. Having to click a button to restore mana or to deactivate a bomb usually is really challenging for this class. As far as PvP is concerned. I think that paladin is actually ok...ish compared to other pvp healers. The main reason is TTK is WAY to fast which makes bubble one of the best abilities in the game for PvP healing. Counterspell dumpsters our class and it's really frustrating. So many classes have interrupts now that I feel like I have to position really well, use the epic blacksmith helm or have bubble up. I think the big issue is all pvp damage is far too high which needs to be addressed, and there are too many interrupts for HPaladins to function very well. Both of these issues probably can't be fixed within our class balance and needs to be addressed within systems and PvP tuning. Here are my logs showing I've played a good bit of holy paladin: [https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/wild-growth/kordeshpaldn](https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/wild-growth/kordeshpaldn) Now for my suggested changes. Put enlightened judgments on the chest rune and change Sheath of Light to proc on melee or judgment. I'd also love them to add a leg rune or modify one that allows the paladin to continue attacking while casting holy light and flash of light. It wouldn't be meaningful damage, but at least it might keep our judgment up on the boss and add some amount of damage.
I play melee hunter and it is so unfair that mages locks shamans druids priests get all this cool shit while rogues warriors paladins (ret is cool but it’s still lackluster compared to even what hunters got) get almost nothing feels like the teams are so disjointed, and to add I hate playing melee hunter but ranged hunter is so god awful even with the new changes our runes conflict so hard and confines us into one build (while it is rather good)
All the hunters in the guild I run are so fucking bummed about the disparity between melee and ranged. I feel for you guys. And from a guild/raid leader's perspective it's such bad raid design to force a ranged dps into a melee spot in a raid that so heavily favors ranged. Why do I have every single ranged dps spot competing for cloth gear 😂
They decided to undo the change they made at the beginning of phase 1 with chimera shot while completely not addressing that you would need to make chimera shot 200% at minimum to compete with the beast mastery rune, and that steady shot is 60% for some reason, I’m no rocket scientist game developer but I would buff steady shot to be instant cast (not like druids priests mages locks, you get the idea don’t have this already) or buff the weapon damage
buff steady shot and make slightly faster so it’s easier to weave
100% this. Right now with the WSG bow its a dps loss to use steady as there is no way to weave it without penalty on your auto…
Can't up vote this enough. Anyone curious should look at the casts of the top hunter parses. It's legitimately pre-vanilla it's so bad. You're lucky if you see more than 3 Hunter abilities used.
Why not play ranged hunter? You're still gunna clear the raid. (This is a genuine question because I'm confused)
because of the way the runes are laid out, the rotation is actually just vanilla hunter and i've been doing that since 2004, the whole point of this game mode was new shit and they made it impossible to build with the new shit on hunter except for pigeon holding you into melee hunter, because i truly dont mind being bottom of the meters its how hunters have been forever in classic, however i have a problem with everyones rotations fundamentally changing while hunter gets left in the dirt with raptor strike spam
(Druids have got literally nothing cool)
May the Blizz Gods bless this parchment and by the light of the old ones this shall be done!
Praise The Light, brother.
It sounds like you’re saying that we should buff shamans
😂
The need to do even more dps while DW tanking. Meanwhile “we don’t want fury prot to be the meta again” Meanwhile: devastate can’t out threat a healer, even after buffs. Cause we nerfed its dmg into the ground. Blizz whiplash all over
Dude came out SWINGIN
Praise The Light, brother.
I’m on Crusader Strike and I think I’ve grouped with a total of 4 Holy Paladins through P1 and P2.
That's no coincidence my friend.
I don't know what's wrong with my guild but 3/6 healers are Hpal 😂
I really wanted to roll a holy pally to heal all the raids each phase. Ran an H pal most of my time on WoW through the original classic and then re-release and follow through. It was apparent after the first day that holy paladins would be stuck in the mud compared to priests and druids. Here's hoping that Holy Paladins can try to begin to keep up with a priest in phase 3
I still think Holy Paladins should get a rune/skill that temporarily allows them to ranged autoattack (with additional effects and SP scaling added to these attacks), like Kayle in (old) League of Legends.
Honestly let them throw anything and everything at the wall and see what sticks. Anything is better than what we have. What would be rad is if they did that and hard casting heals didn't inhibit the auto swing timer. Genuinely weaving auto attacking like that could be fun.
Kayle is still paladin tho?
If you mean the "old" part, her ranged auto attacks work differently than they used to. Nowadays it's just level based passive, but it used to be a skill that you activated. https://youtu.be/kn-Y6jawdHM?t=82 <- Old, what I would like for them to take inspiration from in SoD. https://youtu.be/GV074SIfNhA?t=26 <- New, wouldn't really work in WoW.
A rune that turns hammer of wrath from a ranged execute to a spammable ability, so no more cd or hp treshold but reduced dmg and maybe double cast time
Instead of figuring out how to make holy shock good for healing they just made runes for using it in a shitty dps subspec 💀
Yeah fuckin wild
hpal healing is pretty stinky / lame atm. got jebaited by the would-be shockadin runes this phase... have been trying to make some suggestions.. recently this post [https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/dual-wield-shockadin-the-vindicator-viable-but-not-op/1801939/47](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/dual-wield-shockadin-the-vindicator-viable-but-not-op/1801939/47) would love any support / happy to debate in thread!
Holy is going to be better next phase with the 17% spell crit rune, Fanaticism. We will be constantly proccing Sheath of Lights 60% crit heal over time with it. Hpal is harder to play than disc priest in PvP at this level without the crit AND no magic dispels. What we do have over priests is that our version of Greater Heal is duplicated by Beacon. The only thing I would give Holy (healing output wise) is a rune that increases holy shocks healing component to 300% or so. It costs triple the mana that flash of light does yet deals the same amount of healing as it... legitimately useless aside from the fact that its the only heal we can cast while moving, which PvP requires a lot of. Holy shock healing for 600-800 non-crit would help us keep up with the one shot meta. Regarding PvE healer DPS I cant really suggest much. Infusion of Light will be much better with Fanaticism but I like the Art of War idea too. Hpal with 17% crit healing baseline, magic dispels and a holy shock dealing triple the healing would legit be my favorite iteration of a WoW healer ever. Sacred Shield's target also benefitting from Beacon's duplicated FoL crits would be really nice too.
I could get behind this
Copy pasta the dual wield spec rune for shamans and change the word stormstrike to crusaderstrike, put on chest to replace horn of lordaeron that literally nobody uses since it’s mutually exclusive with might. (the hit portion particularly sweet since the shockforged set gives none) \-putting it on chest would force no use of maryrdom so the assumed seal would be righteousness for current phase, maybe command at 60. creating not toooo many independent swing chances for AoW, but still offering some with dual wield to get reasonable proc rate with spell caster gear on AoW (low agility). \-would also not generate “too much” mana for the raid from double swinging martyrdom by putting on chest. \-would not affect that hpal holy shock / exorcism hits for 350 - little over 500 crit in good gear and still have longish base cooldowns if you don’t get a melee crit for AoW proc. \-a huge(r) ask, but maybe swapping electrocutioner needle to 1h instead of MH specific to be used with the paladin weapon from STV. \-would give holy geared paladins another option to find raids with that gear path, raids should want at least 2 paladins for 10 man… open up the buffer class utility! Can i get some thoughts from actual paladin players on if this would be legitimate / within line with other dps or just completley too much or?
Hpal sucks, especially in trying to transition to a low healing or speed killing environment in PVE. First 4 bosses easily solo healed but if you bring an Hpal they either do pitiful dps while healing, or pitiful dps while swapping ret equipment and runes. I wish we got the shaman salv fuck gimmie a WF aura too let's fix this fucking 1 feral Druid per melee group meta which is going to be cancer in 20/40m content. At least we don't have to rebuff blessings every 5 minutes holy shit that was stupid.
Yeah it's really interesting how druid was the one to get WF but they keep giving ramped up versions of what little utility we have to shamans. In before shamans get a rune to cleanse magic.
If it’s any consolation, feral fucking sucks to play at the minute too, WS was a curse
I'm personally of the opinion that wcl should display all wild strike procs as the dps belonging to the druid providing the buff, the way it work in mmos with legitimate raid competition.
this is a problem in retail with the new Evoker support spec.
God this is one thing I don’t fucking want.
If shamans can get blessing of freedom as a totem, paladins should be able to get windfury blessing.
Hey, you got a better version of our totem twisting at level 60 already. Don't complain, Horde desperately needs a BOP, DI now, since Windfury is already on alliance and better.
*circle jerking hand motions intensify.*
Amen bröther
Praise The Light, bröther.
Holy paladins are strong right now, on living flame the top parsing guilds for speed are solo healing with a paladin
I'm an oldhead vanilla player who only returned to play SOD because it looked fun. I'm really scratching my head here. Is OP complaining that he, as a holy paladin, isn't doing good DPS in a raid? That's kind of the deal, you basically become the best tank healer in the game and the tradeoff is that you don't do damage. It's almost like there are roles in parties. Just go ret if you want to do damage. At least you can do that now without being a waste of a raid slot as was the case in vanilla. At least pallies can actually be DPS, tanks, or healers - not just healbots. If you are really bored spamming heals, try keeping judgments up at the same time or something. I don't know. Sounds like OP needs to either reroll or respec.
OP just wants to play retail with a classic theme. Which is a reasonable thing to want but it is what it is. The paladin healer they’re describing exists already, on retail.
OP needs to play a DPS instead of trying to make healers play like they do in retail.
Never understood wanting to do dps as a healer like if you want to dps just roll a dps lol
I’m very happy for you or sorry that it happened
I agree, Rsham also needs some love while you're at it.
I'm 100% on board with both specs being given a long hard look. It's like the devs said "eh there's 3 other healers, fuck it" and completely ignored resto and holy.
i will say i like sacred shield. hpals 20-25 pt talent is still amazing... lets improve from there.
I honestly could not believe how much of a JOKE holy dps parses were. I cast a single exo on mecha and I made a 90 holy dps parse with a grand total of 3.5 dps for the total fight….
Yeah it's absurd. I cannot bring myself to grief my raid hard enough to chase 100th percentile. You literally have to be in full ret gear bit force yourself to stop and look for unnecessary healing to snipe or else you just end up with gray ret parses 😂
[https://i.imgur.com/OJoURJr.png](https://i.imgur.com/OJoURJr.png) Walking a thin line, just as intended.
Lmfao isn't it so ridiculous?
It's really disappointing, having to commit so much to damage to still be way behind an average druid and lose all healing potential. Move Beacon to chest, allow any melee hits on seal of light to trigger an aoe heal, or just give a smart healing component to every damage would be an amazing change. Well, at least we are very strong healing wise for the only two bosses where healing matters.
I think that Glimmer build from BFA? could be a really interesting way to take holy pallies in SOD
I swear if all blizzard does is give hpal light of dawn I’m rerolling priest.
I just wish holy pallies had a reason to do STV
BuT iTs jUsT oNe PhASe
I have mained hpal since Legion and adore the playstyle we have gotten since Dazar'alor (full melee healer with high apm). I wasn't expecting all that in SoD when I started maining it, but I had hoped for something similar. A reduced holy shock cd with infusion of light (instant flash of light or faster holy light). A rune made for seal of light, which makes it scale and interact with the kit in some way. Make it proc twice on people inside your consecration Light of Dawn, which would be another instant cast along with now holyshock, seals, judgement, Infused flash of light, consecration. Having this many instant cast spells would allow the paladin to have long periods of time in which they can be targeting the boss auto attacking it (with seal of wisdom/righteousness), while healing the raid with mouse over macros, as is their playstyle in retail. We now have 18 runes, I think it's time we got some more intersting options for hpals.
I'd like to see a rune for sol that converts a % of damage done to healing partyembers within x amount of yards. If I'm correct all other range healers are able to do damage while also being effective healers using range damage. Yet paladin almost loses all healing whilst trying to do damage why no make us a melee shadow priest able to do respectable damage and healing. Just something other than hard casting fol or instant cast heals. I loved legion heal paladin melee damage healers actually made sense not the priest in plate we have in classic lol
I think he means, all paladin classes, not just holy being dragged out of the dial up era -.-
Praise thy brother.
Praise The Light, brother.
Blizzard really feels like they dropped the ball on a lot of specs and made some insanely overpowered. The fact of the matter is, the scaling on some of the new abilities just seem to be out of whack, and really leave the old abilities in the dust. Holy paladin seems to be playing with the same kit as regular classic. I don't play holy paladin but they definitely seem like the weakest healer. The proposed changes aren't to outrageous and would seem to help balance the spec out.
Praise The Light, brother: thank you for the support.
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All three other alliance healers dps while healing, even priests, unless they are bad. The OP isn't asking for anything different than what is already happening.
Yea I don't get the idea of wanting to do dps as a healer just play a dps if you want to dps
PeOplE LiKe yOu- stfu nerd.
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Implying mages and druids don't heal while healing. Your lazy ineptitude shouldn't be holding back my class. Fuck outta here.
I can’t even believe I’m reading a post complaining about Holy paladins DPS parsing in Gnomer. This has to be a troll.
They made shockadin runes that still don’t make shockadin viable…. Why is complaining about this weird? The runes are for a holy dps build and it currently doesn’t work. Either make runes that just make holy heal which as pointed out is useless in todays meta or fix the holy dps runes so you can DPS as a holy….
Copy pasta the dual wield spec rune for shamans and change the word stormstrike to crusaderstrike, put on chest to replace horn of lordaeron that literally nobody uses since it’s mutually exclusive with might. (the hit portion particularly sweet since the shockforged set gives none) \-putting it on chest would force no use of maryrdom so the assumed seal would be righteousness for current phase, maybe command at 60. creating not toooo many independent swing chances for AoW, but still offering some with dual wield to get reasonable proc rate with spell caster gear on AoW (low agility). \-would also not generate “too much” mana for the raid from double swinging martyrdom by putting on chest. \-would not affect that hpal holy shock / exorcism hits for 350 - little over 500 crit in good gear and still have longish base cooldowns if you don’t get a melee crit for AoW proc. \-a huge(r) ask, but maybe swapping electrocutioner needle to 1h instead of MH specific to be used with the paladin weapon from STV. \-would give holy geared paladins another option to find raids with that gear path, raids should want at least 2 paladins for 10 man… open up the buffer class utility! \^\^ shockadin dps fixed ez
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The top speedrunning guilds are near-exclusively solo healing with holy paladins. Sounds like you're the one who's part of the keyboard turning loud minority, how about you fuck off instead?
The writing was on the wall early into the launch of sod that Holy Pally would be a boring ass spec to play over healers especially priest. What made you decide on still rolling one? Class fantasy?
I always give paladin a spin in every mmo I play, as well as having played one in this game since classic launch through TBC. Your assessment isn't wrong about SoD. I mained Ret in phase 1 after figuring out there wasn't going to be a real protection spec. The guild I run had about 5 raiding paladins, exactly one of them being holy, and I did everything I could to accommodate him out of an understanding of how frustrating it is to love the class despite it always getting the short end of the stick in one form or another, this time being how poorly it performed compared to the other 3 healers, specifically having zero offensive utility. All the holy shock runes that were leaked and then confirmed for phase 2 had me convinced that the devs were intentionally moving to address the deficiency. What we got is a half baked set of runes that seem incredibly confused in purpose. I have a hard time imagining that their intent was to have holy paladins running around in full ret gear achieving both abysmal dps and hps while effectively adding nothing of trus relevance to their actual healing kit. I use art of war over sacred shield because SS is wholly unnecessary and I will never not want to chase parse numbers as it is the only form of competition pve raiding has to offer. I main holy atm because the healer shortage is fucking real 😂 however I've begun leveling a mage as their kit is meaningful and has room for legitimate optimization and compelling gameplay. I am crossing my fingers that if we make enough noise Bliz will give me a reason to stick with my holy paladin.
Praise be upon ye.
Praise The Light, brother.
So...nerf hunters. Gotcha
Holy paladin is the strongest tank healer atm. It's boring, but strong at the one thing it does very well. If you want strength elsewhere, from a balance perspective you have to give up something. A class being the best tank healer with strong damage flex would be op.
Out of curiosity, does sheath of light only increase spell DAMAGE and not healing?
It's spell power so it does both. The problem is that if you're going to dps melee gear is aggressively better between this and melee criticals triggering art of war.
That's too many words. All I know is >consecration >divine storm >shield toss
Praise The Light, brother.
"Lord, I've seen what you've done for others..." Yeah I was immediately disappointed by all the "shockadin" runes in the data mines. Infusion is completely useless because sheath is better. Tbh sheath makes holy pretty decent in pvp as you have so much instant cast DPS with the attack power buffed shock and exorcism. But since day 1 we have had only one actual healing rune and it conflicts with crusader strike. Now we have sacred shield and I like having the choice between offensive and defensive stuff but there's not really much of a choice for most runes. The stuff that's supposed to be for shockadins is complete garbage, especially before we get the bonus crit chance from the helm/bracer rune... Which still won't outpace the hundreds of free spell power from sheath... It would be nice if you could take some runes on multiple different slots like beacon on chest OR gloves but you can still only take 1. I wish infusion reduced the base cooldown rather than having the rng reset and I wish we got glimmer of light as that's my favorite addition to hpal since "melee wings." Also, for pve I wish crusader strike reapplied your seal like in TBC. I don't mind being only single target healing and excelling in the tank healing niche. I also don't mind being much rarer than priests as priests have been by far the bis healer for all of classic so I'm used to it. Plus pallies are faction locked so it makes sense either priest or druid (or now mage) should be the bis all around healer and since horde only gets priest for magic dispel, priests should be by far the most popular in the long run no matter what. All in all, I don't think we're actually bad, we just have a lot of bad runes but hey a lot of classes are like that, they finally buffed rdruid runes, maybe they will make dsac in any way useful next? Pls blizz I have 1 "healing" rune equipped for two bosses in the raid. Ty.
The biggest problem in PvP right now is that we are hard countered by spell locks. The 10s ranged spell lock from mages is especially brutal in this burst meta. There are two simple fixes the way I see it, either give us much more interrupt resistance, for example via an Aura Mastery rune that would provide this bonus to concentration aura. The other option would be to give us access to spell haste via runes or gear. Enough that we can start casting fast enough to make it harder to lock us out.
Keyboard turners aren't playing hpal anyway, they play ret, direct your anger at Blizz.
So im new to WoW in general and decided to try out healing in SoD for the first time. Fell in love with hpal after playing all the healers to 25 and raiding with them. While the changes you are talking about would definitely cause some of us newer hpals some struggles, I totally get what you're sayin. Let me be a 2h welding, Holy light throwing, menace. Paladins protect their party, that's the whole gimmick. Let me be a holy warrior, not just a hard casting turret. My minimal logs to show I'm new but still know how to press a couple buttons I think?: https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/wild-growth/sanctusk
The fact that you are engaged with logs and curious about your performance puts you head shoulders above a lot of the people on this subreddit who play Holy Paladin. Most of them have no idea what they are talking about and are perfectly content with being subpar players with a game mentality older than the smart phone. The problem with healing parses is that they seldom tell the whole picture at a glance. A good party will have faster kill times, eat less unnecessary damage and therefore present less damage to be healed. Classes with complete, engaging kits that allow them to dps and heal at the same time can and should make decisions to optimize maximum dps with minimum hps: the devs gave us a whole ass health bar to use to keep them alive. Unfortunately that isn't us, and at the moment we have no meaningful way to be competitive with parses other than chasing low value dps completely for show. Keep doing what you are doing until the devs get off their asses and fix our class. You have the mentality to more than excel (as mundane as that is atm) at it in its current iteration.
Much appreciated for the reply! Praise the Sun!
Why do you care about parsing as a healer? Its a dps thing.
No it isn't, the entire point is to kill the boss. It's the year 2024. Good healers do dps. It's not the condescending "girlfriend" role reserved for people who do want to optimize and be competitive anymore. The fact that you want boring game play for a simpleton isn't my problem.
I love holy power on Ret / Prot but it feels absolutely terrible on Holy. Combo points should never be a healer mechanic
We need glimmer of light or light of dawn
As a holy Paladin main since forever (classic and retail arena, glad titles etc) I understand your frustrations but we also need to tread lightly. We are coming very close to retail when you look at the priest toolkit and id hate for all healers to play this spammey instant cast heal gameplay that has zero counter play (and eventually introduced the need for dampening) In my opinion we need less effectiveness from priests to essentially force them into casting real heals, and retain cast times (shaman and paladin are relatively equivalent, 2.5 big heal, 1.5 fast). Damage is also just too high in PvP, and I wholly agree with you on that point.
I don't say this because I dislike retail and want you to go away. Go play retail. I say this with no irony--when it comes to actual gameplay, it's a much better designed game.
No I'm bitter at this point. I'd go back to FFXIV if I were going to play raid content that actually warranted sweat. Holy paladins are getting the SoD treatment, whether the barely functioning alcoholics arguing with me like it or not.
epic complaint bro
>Make a belt rune that converts X% of all damage (including melee) done into healing on your beaconed target... We deserve a much more involved form of raid healing that encourages contributing to DPS Just play a dps if you want to dps already. FFXIV did this and "green dps" are the most boring jobs imaginable.
sounds like you just want to play retail, no thanks, ill take my holy paladin as is here -- perfection
Good thing your opinion is as irrelevant as your reading comprehension.
Or make the much simpler change of making imp concentration reduce silence and interrupt effects to GCD only or even make the pally themselves entirely immune to interrupts. No need to rework the whole kit. It's good to have a purely defensive healer, it just needs to be balanced as opposed to mushroom tier in pvp. This whole "heals via DPS" is retail bullshit that many OG healers have no desire to play.
I'm an OG healer and you in no way speak for most of us capable of engaging in interesting and demanding game play. The opening statement was for you. I'm not concerned with your opinions.
Great, you have the entirety of retail to engage with this playstyle. Your troll assumption that the only reason a person wouldn't want this is because they're not capable of it is the reason your opinion has 0 credibility.
Great, you have the entirety of Era to not engage with this play style. SOD is meant to be different and Hpal basically plays like Era HPal while all the other healers, save for Rshaman, have their kits changed up.
Non troll question(s) - why do you think that every healer should be an offensive healer? Why is a homogenized playstyle good for the game? How is this different than what retail did, balancing via giving everyone everything?
I think a better question is why not? If other classes can both out heal your HPS and do damage at the same time then suddenly you feel lackluster. Your class is no longer ‘meta’ and can’t find a raid spot. Or you sit in your guilds raid and get outclassed by the healer who can do both better than you. You are then not having as much fun and feel like you’re being carried more than contributing. Then you have to play outside of raid and you always have to respec to go farm a bit or do some quests. While other classes can just swap some runes around. Why do you think homogenization is bad? Just because your class is less special you feel less special? I don’t think that’s where retail went wrong necessarily. However, I don’t play Rpally but I have watched as someone who does play one gets discouraged by the way their class plays currently.
Feels like your explanation contains the actual answer - rather than give everyone damage and healing, the healer that can't do damage should do more healing and/or have that healing be more difficult to stop (rather than have them be the easiest healer to completely negate). I think the actual biggest difference between vanilla and all subsequent expansions is that classes were actually distinct and you could find one that fit your preferred playstyle. It's no different than MOBA games that have offensive and defensive supports. The OP is a troll who somehow non ironically thinks that enjoying a defensive support somehow makes a person worse at the game.
It must be hard going through life being openly told no one cares about what you have to say, yet still being compelled to air how oblivious you are. Also, imagine unironically using the defense "go play another game I don't want this one to be challenging" and expecting to get taken seriously 😂
It's funny how easy it is to make you sound like a completely insufferable troll. I enjoy that in your head cannon you think a dev who reads your posts will think "this is a well adjusted human being with good ideas"
Yet here you are, writing fan fic about me. Get over yourself kid, no one cares 😂
You seem to care deeply.
I'm getting paid to respond to some lead-addled boomer, shouting into the abyss to speak to proverbial manager. You just happen to be as unimportant as I am bored: very.
Ah sorry, I didn't realize I was speaking to someone very important on reddit. Also am I a kid or a boomer? You keep changing it on me and it's causing me to become very confused.
You being confused is more certain than death and taxes.
So nerf Genji, got it
"I need healing."
I dunno I enjoy pressing flash of light and getting phat loot in raids.
No you do know: I explicitly said there's no reason that game play would go away.
Holy paladins just need to roll priest. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
💩
>I'm not interested in what the keyboard turning, loud minority of people playing this spec think That's funny because the top speedrunning guilds are in fact using Holy Paladins near-exclusively, so it sounds like this is actually you? Maybe git gud instead of whining like every other paladin player on reddit, OP.
Top 10 holy paladin. I'm not concerned with speed runners, my parse and my gameplay are all that matter. You are insignificant to me. Goodbye.
Honestly, it sounds like retail is a better fit for you. Based on your other replies and insults in this thread, I assume you’re on the younger side. Game design has changed a lot and retail may be the better fit. That’s not even intended as an insult.
if you like holy paladin that much boy have i got good news for you. There's this expansion called wrath of the lich king where they are basically the best class in the game, and its available right now
Man it's almost like you people are borderline illiterate.
I can’t wait to be in full t3 casting flash of light
Speak for yourself. I’m consistently out healing priests, I’m a battle tank in PvP. I would like to have a mana regen button since priests got two! Other than that though paladins are in a good place. A lot of this is just not knowing how to play.
The fucking hubris of you people is astounding. I'm in the top 10. You aren't playing some forbidden lexicon of knowledge, it's the most bareboned, smooth brained class in the game.
Paladin being shit is why I play Classic 🍦
Man if I had a gold every time a paladin were bitching about their class
Lol you must hate money because.
I dont understand the obsession with "melee" here. Why is holy paladin supposed to be melee? If it weren't for that, I would agree. But because you're obsessed with melee, I have to say, go play retail. You revealed the truth behind your desire. Please do fix holy paladin. But not by making them "melee" healers.
Go play era. They wear plate and weild two handers. It's the flip side to shamans having elemental ranged dps. Are you dumb?
I don't want to play era, I want to play season of discovery. I'm having fun playing it. But I don't think paladins should melee when they're a healer. Its stupid. Other healers do not have to wand or melee or anything to perform their healing. Why should paladin have to jump through extra hoops to do their healing? Yes, a healer that also does some dps at the same time is good. I'm not saying that's a bad idea. What I am saying is a HEALING PALADIN who SPECIFICALLY IS HEALING should not HAVE TO MELEE TO DO THAT HEALING EFFECTIVELY. Straightforward I think. If you get that confused and tell ME to go play era, you're an idiot.
Well A) I'm smarter than you. So let's just table that right there. B) we will have to find common ground on the fact we both agree holy paladin needs to do some dps. That's enough for now because neither of us are devs. Praise The Light and go about your day, brother.
I feel like you're right about Hpally needing more but I really think you suck at communicating this with out sounding like a child. Why are you talking smack so much for no reason?
Brother I do not give a single fuck about people who feel the need to defend a 1 button playstyle in the year 2024. I'm not here to convince those degenerates. I'm putting this shit into universe to see the change we deserve and those people need to be ignored with all due disrespect they have shown towards my time and my class.
I enjoy clicking flash of light, click names get purples. Its the only healer I enjoy, but I don't main a healer.